Just what the title says, which is more important to you and why. Up until like a week ago, I was a die hard mana ho, but now... I am swaying to the HP side.

Just curious how others feel about this.

Have outfits for both high mana/high HP.

But I think a 2 to 3 (2 hitpoints to 3 mana) is a good everyday ratio.

So if you have 2400 hitpoints your should have about 3600 mana.

HP HP !! The more the better !

Edit: oops forgot the why. Hmm I don't know, I guess more hp mak me safer in someway =p Having 6 k mana won't help when you have a hard hitting mob beating on you .!

I'm really curious about this myself, and started a discussion on sw.dg a couple weeks ago.

I'm trying to decide between getting the 40 mana augments or the 40 hp augments.

Initially I was leaning towards the 40mana ones mostly, but I think I've been conviced to switch over.

I do still occassionally run out of mana on raids (usually when I am forced to be in the MT rotation against heavy hitters). But I have decided that I would like some more hp more, so I can have an easier time in groups (where I am often the puller).

As a reference, I'm at 6869hp and a hair over 6kmana with full raid buffs at current.

- Xylem, E'ci

Right now I value hp roughly twice as much as mana; 1 hp = 2 mana. The way I see it:

Short fight...hp is all that really matters. I'm not likely to be able to burn all of my mana before the fight ends, and a larger mana pool would make little to no difference in the fight, while high hp makes it much more likely for me to survive early spot heals and AE's and such so that I can continue using the mana.

Long fight/crawl...mana pool adds very little to how much I can contribute, only affecting my "burst" spell usage; instead mana _regen_ is king. High hp is still important in any place that I'm likely to be hunting.

I suppose medium length fights are where having a large mana pool is important--long enough to go out of mana without gaining aggro, but short enough that mana regen doesn't compensate for a small mana pool. These situations are somewhat rare for me, though they occur enough for mana to be a consideration for gear selection.

I'm trying to decide between getting the 40 mana augments or the 40 hp augments.

Initially I was leaning towards the 40mana ones mostly, but I think I've been conviced to switch over.

This is exactly where I was at. I went with the 40 hp augments. Bought 2 of them over the weekend, so no turning back now ^.^

Well, I think the easy, short answer is: do you raid much?

I no longer have a schedule which allows raiding. So I solo/duo, or do single group-type stuff. For me, Mana >> HPs, since I'm almost never getting beat on, and AoEs are no concern since it's pretty much only raid-level mobs that AoE.

If I would ever start raiding again, I'd need a LOT of HP upgrading, but the chances of that are pretty much nil at this point.

Tat

PS - For reference, my self-buffed HPs/mana are 2411/3700. Once I ding 63 (only 6% to go, but no Pot9 yet =( ), my self-buffed HPs will be about 2600.

Go HP.....without HP you have 0 mana.

So more HP you have more likely you are to keep your mana.

If someone had 3k HP and 6k Mana they would die far more and lose that 6k mana than someone with 6k HP and 3k Mana.

Also mana generally comes with equip naturally. I concentrate on HP however my mana is like way over HP and I never even look at it but that is the higher end of the scale.

Remeber dying lots means you gotta med mana back.....the less you die the better.

If you want to add to that question. FT is also a factor. Id work it more HP > FT > Mana.....again see reasons above.

Be sensible though if you gain 10hp and lose 100 mana well thats silly :P

Tils

If you already have a decent mana pool, and most top end druids should, then go with HP.

HP. With 4.1k unbuffed I have more then enough mana for almost everything I do. HP + FT are my main concerns, even if I were to someday get my dream profile, I still wouldn't have enough hp =-p The longer/better I can tank stuff, and survive AEs the longer I have to use mana and be effective.

hp's. Mana means nothing if you're dead ;)

hp's. Mana means nothing if you're dead
True, but a full health druid with no mana might as well be dead.

They are both as important as each other. If your deciding between 2 augments, they are not mutually exclusive get both, as to the one to get first, get which ever area is the lowest for you.

I treat HP and Mana on a ratio of like 48%/52% they are so equally important go for both whenever you can :).

HP for life.
A fellow druid once spoke wise words into my ear, he said:
You always run out of red stuff before blue stuff, so go for the red stuff.
Tils explained it nicely :)

I never really chose one over the other, but with around 4900 HP unbuffed and over 6100 mana unbuffed, I never really worry about running out of mana or getting whacked a few times by a mob.

I guess I should say what I got for reference.

Raid buffed: 6904 hps, nearly 6k mana (magelo shows 5719 or something unbuffed)

Yep, CA/LR will help you against bosses that hit for 2k+ =-p Fenin seems to miss a lot lol =-p

Another reason I don't much care about mana (to a point, as said above, I won't go for a 10 hp upgrade and lose 100+ mana for it) is because on most raids I have trouble running out of mana, on the ones where I do run out of mana, it's due to HUGE mana DoT AEs or I run out just about the time the mob is dieing. In doing experience, my mana pool almost never comes into play, but my mana regen sure as hell does

So here's a question then, which is mostly the same question but asked more quantitatively:

Suppose you have to choose between a hp aug and a mana aug. The HP aug is a 100hp aug.

What is the minimum value of mana the mana aug would have to be before you chose the mana aug instead of the hp one?

I think for me it would be a 121 mana aug for me to take it right now, but I'm still waffling.

Anyone else want to volunteer their number?

- Xylem, E'ci

Probably 200 mana, if at all.

125 I'd consider it, 150 I'd take it without question. But I'd probably still get a 100 hp one too >.<

Yeah, same as StormFoo!

Against 100 hp, It would have to be at least 150 mana...

Have 4800 hp / 6100 mana unbuffed, and I still want more hp..

I very rarely go oom unless **** hits the fan and I need to do something extra.

I would go 70% hp, 30% mana

( but that all depends on your gear and manapool from the beginning ) having 2300 hp and 1600 mana ain't gonna cut it :)

The leading cause of death in Everquest is running out of Hit Points.

Having a bunch of HP's won't help you either against a boss that hits really hard.

Actually thats where your wrong. Being able to take 1 more hit from Mr uber boss who hits for 2k means the law of averages you will either get lucky and someone will heal you or he will miss and youll lose agro. If you cant take that 1 more hit who cares your dead anyway.....have fun meddign your 6+k mana back.

Yes sure alot of the time youll die to Mr uber boss.

But Ive had a considerable amount of times when Ive lived through agro on some mobs but being 5% health left because its enough time for heals to hit.

Remeber also this doesnt stay with Boss mobs. AEing mobs, Normal LDoN mobs, PoP mobs however they all hit for 300+ (some 800+) which having 1k more HP DOES make a difference between living or dying what ever level of the 65 game you are.


Tils

Being able to take 1 more hit from Mr uber boss who hits for 2k
which having 1k more HP DOES make a difference between living or dying what ever level of the 65 game you are

Yes HP's matters when you are talking about these quantities, eg 1KHP over 1Kmana, but we are comparing 40HP Augment against 40Mana augment. a 2K hitting mob that is not going to make a lick of difference, but then either is the mana. Even if it was in every slot of your invent, that is 800 HP.

HP's is all fine and well when you have 6K plus mana pool. I have 5K mana pool and in a dungeon unless I conserve and not do as much as I can, I WILL run out of mana and that is with FT9, MOTH, Bo9, C5 and SD. I believe even with a 6K mana pool I would use it up easily, becuase it is the thing holding me back.

Each have value and merit, it comes down to the individual and the way they play. A dead druid can't cast any spells, and a full health druid with no mana is extra baggage. So running out of either of them is not a good thing. But at 5K buffed HP and 5K mana I know I certainly could use more mana, HP's are very rarely a problem.

Another thing to consider, you get alot more buffed HP's and alot easier than you can mana.

HP> mana

Right now for me its, HP>FT> Mana

I dont have the greatest stuff, 2400 unbuffed hp and 3800 mana, But i do know the more HP i have the longer i survive.

Now just need more FT so i can get mana back faster.

Well I play a beastlord aswell and ive been grouped with non uber druids. Its funny how little some of them can tank a mob because of lack of hp.

As I originally said sure having a very small manapool and 6k HP would be silly. However even the people who have listed their stats here most have way more mana than HP in the ratio.

Also FT is a big factor and even that makes probably a bigger difference in LDoN adventures than the pool itself. Most of the time your on the move your standing regen is very important as im sure people know.

Also using mana is all about control...do you really think I dont go lom in adventures even with 7k mana pool? I do however Ill always make sure I dont go oom for that potential train. Even if you go back to before kunark...a good druid never let themselves go oom because they needed in those days to evac. Because you have 20% mana left doesnt mean you should use it...self control is very important. Even if your in a healing role You CAN stop and med if needed.

If I look at what you say those augs fit what 5 slots? well either 200 mana or 200 HP. Work out how much 200 mana gives you..1 chloroblast? again id rather have 200 more HP and live through someones stupid pull.


Tils

As I posted before, I like hp more than mana. Though, come to think over it, sometimes I really need mana. Encounters like Rathe requires you to have a huge mana pool. ( or else you will need a personal necro =p ) Others like Warlord encounter in POEb, PoTime trials etc... Depends on your play style I guess.

Yeah, I've decided to go with 5 40 hp augments and 14-15 20 hp/mana for the rest of them.

If my math is right, that will end up being a 500 hp, 300 mana upgrade.

In my case it is my own stupid pull I have to live through. :) I do agree on the HP thing. I have been buying Coal. If Druid's ever get an agro reducer, I might feel differently (probably not, because Agro has nothing to do with AE damage), but as it is now, on a typical boss I can't burn through my mana before getting summoned.

BTW, I can't help but notice a few comments about Mana regen > Mana. I hope you know those are the same thing and just mean that typically a FT (/scowl at caps) or MP upgrade is worth more than a typical +Mana upgrade. Mana regen and mana preservation don't do anything other than increase the size of your mana pool. They do so, conditionally and variably, rather than statically like +Mana.

They're very separate things though. One determines burst spell usage, and the other determines sustained spell usage.

Assuming 50 mana/tick regen and a 60 minute adventure. Total mana usage is, at most, 50*10*60=30,000 + mana pool. Unless you need a substantial portion of the mana pool in a short time, the size of the mana pool is insignificant, while the mana regen does make a big difference.

I am a paladin and after reading the first page I wonder if I'm even playing the same game. Druids with more hp unbuffed than I have.

Anway, the answer is obvious for me. HP > Mana. The reason being just as obvious. I think you wanted other druid's opinions, though.

If you get aggro you have it. The boss will not come off you fast enough to survive. If a boss hits for 2K, or even 1K chances are you're dead, period. An extra few hundred HP's doesn't mean jack against something that hits that hard.

As usual, open mouth, insert foot.

I've survived a round of Reparm hits. I've also survived direct heal aggro from the Mystical Arbitor of Earth. Don't pretend like ya know everything please ;)

LR5 + HPs = survivabilty

EDIT: I've also Rampage tanked Pwelon of Vapor from Coir encounter as well as found myself as Rampage tank on lots and lots of boss mobs that hit well over 2k. Oh, I ended up tanking the boss from the MUD ring in PoEa as well once for about 3 minutes ^.^

Im assuming Autum doesnt play a high end game then to state that hehe.

Tils

And having the hp to survive doesn't necessarily refer to surviving aggro. What about AE's? Some can be really nasty.

What about AE's? Some can be really nasty.

Rathe Councilman anyone? 1k DD + 5k DoT hurts, k. Only saving grace is that it can be cured easily. Not many of the AE's have that advantage tho ;)

Also, keep in mind, just surviving an AE isn't always enough. If the AE takes you low enough, low hp aggro could pull aggro off the tank and bring the mob to the main raid, possibly even to the cleric spot !

The more hps I have, more and more I'm realizing that it means survival for myself and possibly of the raid.

EDIT: Atleast now I can smile when my guildies are picking on me for being a HP whore, since I'm not the only one out there!

Someone has taunted a boss mob off a druid at 5% health? That's a hell of a taunt. The only thing I've seen that beats heal agro is low health agro. I've seen/been summoned by 3 different mobs when clearing for bertox before. I had done no damage to any of them.

I got summoned by one mob for heal agro, he beat me down to less than 20%, I was then summoned by another mob halfway across the room. The only thing that saved me from dying to him was that the third mob summoned me out of his attack range and laid the smackdown on me. I know this isn't the "boss" mobs you're talking about, but I can't imagine agro would be ALL that different on some of the later plane bosses.

To me less than 20% is the same as dead. However, since I don't raid so much anymore, I'm more of a mana guy in LDoN groups and such. The last thing you want there is to have to take time to "med".

Racmoor

Actually, the last thing you want to do in LDON is die. HP helps stop that. How else do you pull and tank in LDON as a druid without HP???

:)

Nerf Scirocco, thanks, that's all.

Nope, you're the one that's wrong here Tils. That's if there's a wrong and right on this subject.

If you get aggro you have it. The boss will not come off you fast enough to survive. If a boss hits for 2K, or even 1K chances are you're dead, period. An extra few hundred HP's doesn't mean jack against something that hits that hard

I'm not even a druid and I call bullocks, our best equipped druid takes a few rounds of boss's if the fight gets ugly or if their is an aggro debuff thing....

Air avatars arnt the best example because they only hit for 2k and are fairly slowable, but we've had a druid tank them for like 10%+ of the fight, same with rampage when things go wrong.... go go druid ramp tank krizzik

I was glad I came across this thread. Just the other day I was in an LDoN pick up group where it was agreed that all would roll on all drops. In the past, I have deferred HP augs to melee in groups with friends but I did roll on a STA aug with this group and won. There was a paladin in the group who complained that druids didn't need STA/HPs. I told her that everybody needs HPs.
Being in a very small (but FUN!) guild, I often find myself as a healer on raids and in guild groups. Often in groups I am also the CC person. I have noticed a big difference since I've upped my HPs when getting Heal aggro or root parking a few mobs on a bad pull. I also know these HPs are going to keep me alive longer when we start raiding mobs with nasty AoE's.

After reading all these posts, I'm going to start focusing a bit more on HPs > FT > Mana.

HPs.

Focus > HPs = FT > Everything else.

In the everything else, we have DS, AC, Resists, stats that don't directly add to HP (aka non-sta stats. Sta is just hps with a twist), and mana.

Once you get to a certain level, FT becomes easier, so HP > FT eventually. At the low end, FT is harder than HP, so FT > HP. =)

On a raid, you will hit 100 mana / tick mana regen. Add it up.

In a 10 minute fight, that's 10,000 mana.

In a longer 60 minute fight, that's 60,000 mana.

Your pool is a limit on how quickly you can chain cast spells, and really, when chain casting aggro and damage tend to end it before oom does.

Edit:
And, I do sometimes tank raid level mobs for short periods of time.

You can get heals, people can get a /taunt roll off, and you can take rampage.

Plus, being able to ignore trash level mobs DPS is very nice in both raid and group situations.

I know casters who don't work on hps tend to fold a huge amount more in my groups than I do.

I think it's kind of sad that this game has become so centered around hit points meaning everything.

I think the clear point in this thread is that it's not.

Nice, yes, but as with most things one must seek balance. I don't see too many people saying HP > All. Common sense dictates that having no hps means you die, and your mana is irrelevant. Having all hps and no mana means you sit there looking stupid. Balance > All

I think it's kind of sad

Shouldnt that be....kinda ikey! :)

Tils

Well, Pana, if you don't want your HP's, I'll take em.

/hug Pana

It's sad that this becomes an argument because I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer. I have it easy now... Time gear and 7k+ HPs with a few buffs. Mana is about the same or there abouts fully buffed. The mana/hps I have are directly proportional to the MoBs we fight. But if I had a choice of one or the other at the moment, I'd go with more mana. That's my personal preference and I think that would benefit me more in the way I play EQ. BUT, I wouldn't take 1k more mana for 1k less HPs. Balance is the key.

I think it all depends on WHERE you are in the game and HOW you play EQ. Druids at raids tend to become patch healers fairly exclusively. Oh... a little debuff here and there, maybe toss in a free DoT while you have that sword out, but the majority of my casts on a raid fight are heals. Given that druid healing spells are so mana intensive compared to a main healing cleric, I need all the mana I can get. I spend it on NI all the way. No "mana conserving" Karana Renewals. Use the fastest cast for the best heal.

Anyway, there are some other choices as well out there... there is a dodge augment... there are some items with avoidance... LR AAs... Look at other things besides just mana and HPs. Besides the dodge augment, there are mana savers and damage enhancers in LDoN too.

HP all the way.
Mana raises anyway.

If you solo quadding where you do not get hit or die then mana all the way... If you group or tend to "go down" fast then hp are your best protection and will allow a few more ticks of survival during grouping and about 1/10 of a second longer on raids.

i would have to say HP.

the added mana is only added to a full mana bar. once i cast one CH, i will probly never be full mana for the rest of the fight. where as if i have more HP and take a few hits, and then get healed (most likely over healed) i am back to full HP and getting the full benifit of the HP. that make any sense?

HP>REGEN>MANA

I like mana>hp. I'm only tier 3 flagged so I don't really have things hitting me all that hard. If I get beat a few times all I have to do is toss a NI on myself and I'm good again, and with my manapool I nearly never run oom. I guess though that once I hit tier 4< I'll have to go for more HP then mana.

Originally posted by Panamah
I think it's kind of sad that this game has become so centered around hit points meaning everything.

HP has been king since Norrath days. Now that I've said that I really don't like items that are pure HP, without any mana (ignore the fact that I have 3 40hp augs cause I hate guk and no one wants to get me 600 more tak points~)

If I had 3 choices for a slot, a 100hp item, a 100 mana item and a 50hp/mana item, I will take the 3rd everytime. That said, I would also take the 100hp item over the 100 mana item too.

As has been stated before, my biggest problems are with mana regen and aggro. Not the size of my mana pool.

HP's do matter, I've lived through many a over-nuke or early heal that would have killed a lesser druid. Just the other night we were in phase 3 time. I was doing attendence crap and not really paying attention. The MT called assist before the mob was really in camp and I just hit nuke without looking. I got a nice crit and ended up tanking the 1800ish hitting named for the whole fight. War would pull it off me, I'd self-heal and away we'd go! (Oh ya, on a side note, we got 12 loots from phase 3. I knew I should have bought a lottery ticket that night!)

I've tanked normal assasination named before a few times too. Even solo'ing I've found HP to be helpful. No matter how easy and boring your solo might be, murphy is always watching. Nothing like getting a wandering mob add as snare wears off the last resistant leftover of your quad or cutting a corner to close and getting stunned by a quad. How about when some idiot comes to manually check your camp and brings along a "friend" or two for you to play with?

That and nothing can make me cry faster then either doing something stupid, getting a bad string of resists or someone else screwing you and getting you killed 5-10 minutes after you've just run to BFE to bum kei/vog off a chanter.

Any Druid with a Manastone will tell you HP. As far as I'm concerned Mana pool > Flowing Thought. Remember it's not how big the container but, how fast it fills. Also for the same reason Mana Preservation is King here.

"Remember it's not how big the container but, how fast it fills"

Then why did you say Mana Pool is better then FT? =-p

Seems to me you and Tils are the ones trying to pretend you know everything.

Nope, you're the one that's wrong here Tils. That's if there's a wrong and right on this subject.

If you get aggro you have it. The boss will not come off you fast enough to survive. If a boss hits for 2K, or even 1K chances are you're dead, period. An extra few hundred HP's doesn't mean jack against something that hits that hard.

Really? Because that sure looks like a statement of fact. Like you are telling us what *WILL* happen, not what could.. you said you won't survive it, and all I said was I have.

So guess what? I stand by my previous comments. And as for:

I indeed play the high end game if that includes Elementals, Tils. Sorry we can't all be uber Time equipped like you though and flaunt it. Hmm, where's Aly when you need her? We have a TRUE gear flaunter here.

Grow up! She is flaunting nothing. You are just causing trouble as per usual.

I'm not liking where this thread is going, almost a uber vs. casual debate in another form.

HP, Mana, Stats, Resists, Gear, Spells, armour colour, preferred food/drink, hairstyle and favorite breakfast cereal on a Saturday all come down to the player. Every single one of the 400,000+ players have a different way of dealing with every situation.

hehe Storm maybe we could get this thread even longer im sure Autumn will keep posting.

Whats funny is Autumn has to reverted to name calling. You have lost the discussion by doing that. Maybe youll learn that one day...I hope.

Tils

It depends mainly on where you are at in the game, in my opinion. As an early druid hit points are great and far outweigh the likes of mana. One reason for this is the spell cost to usefullness is different. Another is that early druids can actually melee a little. I used to porcupine mobs when I was going through the 20s and 30s, I had a helluva hp pool. As I progressed through the 40s I started quad kiting, and being depended on more as a back up healer and buffer in groups. My equipment slowly lost it's tremendous hitpoints and was eventually replaced by mana and wisdom. From about the mid 50s to 65 it's important to focus on balance. With the AEs that are being cast, especially in LDoN, it's beneficial to have that extra amount of hp. When it breaks down, based on what I've seen I would trade mana for hp in a 5 to 7 ratio.

I'm not liking where this thread is going, almost a uber vs. casual debate in another form.

It was never meant to be that. I started this thread because I noticed a sway in my opinion, and I was wondering if I was on the same page as the rest of the druids out there. And moreover, why that sway in opinion.

But alas, everything has to come down to uber vs. casual if it has any substance what-so-ever. Maybe we should just go back to discussing how to quad-kite and how to solo Elysians in every discussion. Maybe, just maybe, that will keep the trolls away.

/nod Tils

EDIT: BTW, I wasn't knocking anyone's answer. But for someone to blatently put out misinformation, well, I'm going to say something. Especially when it comes as a statement of fact (that was dead wrong).

Originally posted by Geddine
...armour colour, preferred food/drink, hairstyle and favorite breakfast cereal on a Saturday all come down to the player.This is where I have GOT to disagree. You are just flat out wrong, sorry! I haven't parsed it, but I know for a fact that a short hairstyle and burgundy armor make druids a lot more effective than the old green armor and long hair that gets in their eyes while casting. The DD spells hit more often for full, debuffs are rarely needed and getting hit for 2k hps per whack is laughed off every time.

Most high end druid gear will have hp/mana in spades. Sure, one might be 20 ro 30 more than the other, but they are still close enough that it doesn't matter.

Personally, I have 2 hps for every 3 mana. That's mostly because I've concentrated on mana gear for the longest time.

I have and always will be a mana druid. While it's possible to buff up mana pool, it's nothing compared to how much hps can be buffed. At a 2hp/3mana unbuffed ratio, I can raidbuff to about 1hp/1mana.

Originally posted by Stormlin
Yeah, I've decided to go with 5 40 hp augments and 14-15 20 hp/mana for the rest of them.

If my math is right, that will end up being a 500 hp, 300 mana upgrade.

Which theme has non-lore 40hp augs?

Which theme has non-lore 40hp augs?

I'll say this. I have 2 40 HP augments from Ruj. I can't say anymore, or I'd have to keel joo ;)

EDIT: BTW, Pana, do you know someone who has actually confirmed that you cannot have 2 of the same Veng augment?

hehe Autumn is digging himself a bigger grave everytime he replys.

Im also not always right nor are you. But you seem to not understand that what your posting makes you sound just as ignorant and stubborn ;)

Tils

Sorry to burst your bubble Stormlin but I'm not wrong. You surprise me with your ignorance since you think you know so much and want to turn this into a wrong vs. right argument, which it isn't. It's personal preference. I also know for a fact that a few hundred more HP's will not keep you up any longer against a boss that hits for 2 or 3K then not having them. By the way, if you're getting enough aggro to cause yourself to get hit then you're doing something wrong anyway.

I gotta call BS. First of all, if you look at my post DIRECTLY ABOVE yours, you'll notice that I did not want anyone to feel there was a right or wrong. You were the one that came here saying people were wrong.

Also, don't presume to tell me what I'm doing wrong, since you have never seen me or met me. You don't have a clue what I might do to gain aggro. Like maybe do my job and heal the MA so we don't lose him on INC? For the love of god, do you think about anything you say or just spout off the first thing that pops into your head?

In summary, both of you lose for turning it into personal attacks first and trying to belittle someone just because they're not in Time.

Did I even mention Time? Grow up. I don't have a SINGLE Time loot. We haven't even past phase1 time yet. We're still working on the trials. Grow up and stop making assumptions.

And once more for you:

Nope, you're the one that's wrong here Tils. That's if there's a wrong and right on this subject.

You were the one who said someone was wrong. Not me. I posted this thread to find out what people thought, not to tell people they were wrong. Think about it. Why the hell would I start a thread asking for opinions and then spout off that people were wrong.

In fact, I said that I was a mana whore until about a week and a half ago when they refunded my points for the mana augment and I opted to up my hps instead.

Drive through, troll.

What about heal aggro from adds? Bertoxx encounter for example...

Particularly in cases like that, hp makes a HUGE difference. And then of course there's the clearing to a named mob...

The more I raid the more I find hp to be useful.

Sorry to burst your bubble Stormlin but I'm not wrong. You surprise me with your ignorance since you think you know so much and want to turn this into a wrong vs. right argument, which it isn't.

Look... SHOW ME WHERE I ONCE SAID ANYONE WAS WRONG EXCEPT THAT YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO SURVIVE A ROUND OF REPARM.

There, maybe caps will help you.

You are still talking from a Time perspective though, Stormlin. You also have better gear than me I'm sure. But don't try to warp reality to prove your points okay?

That's funny. A week ago we beat Rathe council so now you can discredit my argument because I'm "speaking from a Time perspective".

Define Irony:

You contradict yourself over and over. First it's fact, then it's personal preference, then it's fact, then personal preference...make up your mind. I never said it was a statement of fact, and if it's not how can it be wrong?

If you get aggro you have it. The boss will not come off you fast enough to survive. If a boss hits for 2K, or even 1K chances are you're dead, period.

This is a statement... not an opinion. You didn't say "I don't think that you can survive aggro from a boss that hits for 2k", you said that "The boss will not come off you fast enough to survive".

We've always been at war with Eurasia.

- Xylem, E'ci

*jumps up and down waving her arms*

GUYS!!!!! IT'S A GAME!!! No one CARES that much!

You usually will not survive a round of aggro from a boss, but I have lucked out before and had a few miss me enough times and/or get less then max hits long enough for the War to grab aggro back. Also helps if you have a few bored healers /assist healing on your butt.

I've gotten lucky everywhere from Time way back to my NTOV days. I've also been a HP freak since before Kunark came out.

Will an extra 500-1000hp's guarentee you will survive? Hell no, but they might. HP's are more effective for a raiding druid on the trash mobs leading up to or during the boss encounter. We're /assist healing, nuking, etc and some "trash" can hit as hard or even harder then alot of boss's can.

Mana pool size issues are rare. Most fights are too short to allow you to burn all your mana without a summoning & splat or they are so long that you're more worried about your mana regeneration abilities. About the only fights that a huge mana pool matters is with mana drain effects. There you hope the mob dies before your pool is drained.

Now that all of course just concerns raiding. Soloing and grinding also have needs for hp's too. Here I would say that a much more balanced ratio is needed, but you stilll need/want as many hp as you can get without sacrificing your mana pool. You need to be able to surivive a few hits grinding when that pick-up tank sucks or your puller gets bored, forgets you don't have a chanter/bard with you and trains 8-10 mobs to camp.
Even soloing, **** happens, it's nice to be able to live through a stun, train, etc. No matter how good you are or how safe your area is, bugs and other players do happen. One of my personal pet peeves when quading is when one of the quad's arms seem to stretch and it gets a hit off on you from way outside the hit box. Murphy also loves to have this hit stun your unlucky ass too.

I like both!!
But I would tend to lean slightly towards more hp's than mana but hardly anything past 60/40 hps to mana. But I am a HP whore, especially cause I get summoned at the end of most fights that I try to on :D

I also have to laugh at how some people think their opinion is worth more than others on subjects that have no right or wrong answer. :boohoo:

Stormlin the troll

Funniest thing in the whole disasterous thread-gone-wrong.

I have never known a druid to survive getting full on aggro from a boss mob that hits that hard on a raid

I guess your healers suck then haha

Arf tanks boss mobs more often than i can count and does live through some of them :P

and yea this one is a troll post...lets see if Autumn bites again :D


Tils

If you remove the flames from the 3 that's arguing, it wouldn't be a bad thread actually.

I enjoyed the read and while I tend to go more for a balance it gave me a different perspective on things.

Racmoor Kri`Shandria

Originally posted by Racmoor
If you remove the flames from the 3 that's arguing, it wouldn't be a bad thread actually. Amen to that, Racmoor! What's with all the sniping? I thought the moderators took care of this sort of thing. Debating points of the game is one thing, but taking personal shots at one another is rediculous and doesn't help your game character development one whit!

Yeah! Tils is a noob and stuff! Always bragging about gear! /nod

whatever, dude....I've played with Tils - she isn't like that at all.


Speaking of which, let's see your gear. And what server you play on...and what guild you're in. You seem to have no problem bagging on everyone else here - ante up.

magelo link plz thx

Well, much as I love to step back and watch when Chenier gets rowdy (and who doesn't?), it may be time for this thread to move over to unkempt druids.

Too bad magelo doesn't come with a Victoria's Secret optional link for choosing apparel....:)

/peers around for Stormfoo
/gives Scirocco a good azz shake =)

Hijack post

With the recent posts from Scirocco, I'm begining to think he is either desperate for sex, enjoys and/or has sex alot, or just likes to talk about it.

Either way I think Scirocco and I have a lot in common :D

I like mana over hp... I'm not supposed to be getting hit... and it's not the speed that you fill the container that matters.. sure that helps.. but.. uh duh if you have a bigger container it's going to last longer if it has a hole in the bottom, regardless of how fast it's being filled.

For all of you that came out to tell me how wrong I am for getting worked up in this thread, then I'll be sure to remember that when someone attacks you for posting a good thread for discussion.

I posted this to be informative and fun, and I was attacked. Call it what you want, I'm done with this thread, lock it if you want.

Stormlin, if you're gonna get all worked up, you're getting worked up over the wrong thing. How can anybody stand around worrying about the size of their magelo when Chenier is shaking various body parts??

I waffle myself back and forth on HP vs Mana issue.

It was said earlier that low hp agro bringing a boss to say Cleric/Druids chain healing can = wipe.

So can a druid/cleric who is a member of that chain running out of mana. Mana Intensive fights like Warlord in POEb will more likely wipe from a healer OOM then a healer out of hps.

A lot of it depends on your AA as well.
When you have LR5, it rocks. Combine it with ID5 and you see some impressive things.

Outside of raids. We are caster's so more mana = more casts.
Course, more hps = surviving to cast more often.

I will say this though.
Look at the order most Druids focus on AA wise.
They do thier casting AAs ((SCM, SCF/MC/Healing)) > they do thier
defensive AAs ((LR/ID)) because thier job is to cast.

Course if you have like 200 AA, your likely done with casting AA
and working on defensive AA.

Course you could look at how you could improve your character
from its current baseline. Odds are you have no room left to improve casting ((leaving only mana augs)) while you have room
left to improve survivability ((AA))

LR5 > 800 LDON HP augs though. When mobs quad 2k+ your
AA is providing more survivability then your HPS.

Course, any more surivablity is good.

Course, of those examples listed of surviving agro ((my favorite personal story I survived General Rape for 2 Rounds --including a proc -- till I lost agro. Got 1 heal, and lots of misses))
How often does that happen? Figure I average 30 or so bosses a week. So about 125 a month. And I average maybe 1 good story a month of "Druid tanking". 1% of the time.
I'm using mana 100% of fights.

Course, none of this really matters. Get whatcha want,

/smooches Stormfoo

s'okay, babe....cupcakes for everybody =)

Scirocco is right (/boggle)

/lubbinz Chenier

I am firmly convinced HP > mana. I run out of HP *way* more often than I run out of mana. I have also survived some serious beatings from hard hitting mobs with the help of assist healers keeping me up. Lower HP druids would not have survived. Low health aggro normally isn't an issue. Assist healing keeps you above that point so that the mob can be /taunted, rooted, stunned, what have you.
Our heals bring us a lot of aggro and there's not much we can do about it. We have no spell casting subtlety, no DA, nothing to reduce generating aggro. What we can control is how often we heal (not a good choice) and work on things that will increase our likelihood of surviving - HP and combat AAs.
The biggest elemental drop I have is a ring from Bertox so I wouldn't quite call myself uber. I have no ele leather armor. But I have concentrated on HP heavy gear. I survive quite a lot of attention from trash and boss mobs alike. AEs I can shrug off a couple of times before I have to worry.
High HPs gives you more time before you reach the point of low health aggro and lets you live long enough for others to get a heal to land. You are more use to the raid alive and oom than you are simply dead. Alive, you're still generating mana and can pitch in here and there as you can. (as a side note, you're still keeping your buffs as well. The oom druid that survived and is still buffed is going to be able to rebuff others before the newly ressed druids will be able to do so.)

Alone, HP are not a tremendous help, but couple them with lightning reflexes and combat stability and you see yourself surviving things that will simply amaze you. This doesn't guarentee that you are going to live. It just increases the likelihood.

I agree with the other posters though. Balance is needed. I just have a strong preference for as much HP as I can get. I might take that 50hp/50 mana aug. I might take that 100hp/0 mana aug. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't take the 0HP/100 mana aug.

Yes I'm using this particular piece of equipment as an example for a reason. Yes I like flaunting useless pixels of information that no one else has. With that said... This is my BP at the moment:

http://lucy.fnord.net/item.html?id=9413

Now it's going to be at least a month or two before I replace it with the Elemental BP, so in the meantime I thought I'd augment it. On an LDoN raid last night we got a +50hp aug and a +50 mana aug. Which would you put on this BP? Or would you put something different?

Originally posted by Stormlin
For all of you that came out to tell me how wrong I am for getting worked up in this thread, then I'll be sure to remember that when someone attacks you for posting a good thread for discussion.

I posted this to be informative and fun, and I was attacked. Call it what you want, I'm done with this thread, lock it if you want.

I fully understand Storm, having been in this situation recently. I would say to ignore those attacking you, but we all know it isn't that simple.

To all those abusing Stormfoo....

:moon:

At the risk of getting pulled into a debate, I vote neither.

All stats have a point of diminishing returns. While this bar is raised every expansion, once you pass it for the activities you do online, there is little point in getting worked up over the numbers anymore.

Does it really matter if you have 5500 mana or 5600 mana? How often do those 100 mana make a difference? My answer is about as often as 100 hp would.

I do agree, that "there exists a round of combat such that having 100 hp more will prevent the death of the player". However, I believe that the round in question is few and far between, and corresponds in equal proportions to the round where 100 mana more will turn the tide.

Which leads me, via deduction, to conclude that once you reach a plateau in game, it stands to reason you have or will soon reach such a plateau in gear. Meaning if you could clear seb with 3300 mana, having 3400 mana isn't gonna stop you from doing so.

The only real reason I see to even upgrade once you reach such a point, is in anticipation of SOE actually putting out a real expansion sometime soon, or to simply showoff your "mangelo", as Furor would say.

I still maintain that the times when having an extra 100 mana make a difference are far fewer than the times when having an extra 100 hp will make a difference, even if both are rare. Mana pool size is overrated in most situations. It's extremely rare that there is a fight long enough for me to actually use up all my mana, yet short enough that mana pool size, rather than mana regen, would have made the difference.

On the other hand I run out of hp almost daily (with a decent portion of my mana unused).

Yeah i'd have to agree that I end up dead more often then I go oom. I im only usually oom cause I just died!

Rallos Zek, however, im oom at the end because im a wizard for that fight. CC? pfft leave that to the enc's and 'other' druids :D

Originally posted by Scirocco
Too bad magelo doesn't come with a Victoria's Secret optional link for choosing apparel....:)

!

Really depends on what your looking at between the motds
Chance to Increase Raid Success or
Chance to Increase Group Success

On a raid setting, once your elemental level say
6k hps, 5k Mana, FT15

40 HP or 40 Mana motd, is NEGLIBLE difference to raid success.

Maybe, at that level you might 1/100 fights get agro and survive with LR ((and maybe ID)). Maybe with hps motds you will have 1.1/100 survival. So your talking about a life saver 1/1000 fights. of that maybe 1/10 does it matter. ((in a raid of 50 to 70 or even more 1 druid death usually doesnt mean wipe)) so maybe 1/10000 fights will those HP motds impact the raids success.

Maybe, at that level 1/50 fights are long mana draining affairs
where a druid is in a chain. ((Xegony, Warlord)) of that maybe 1/10 will extra mana pool = extra heal. Of that maybe another 1/10 will that last heal be difference between success or failure.
1/5000 fights will those mana motds impact the raids success

I'd suspect honestly mana motds are > hps motds for raid
success once you are 6k/5k marks. But by the tiniest of margins, and then only if you are a healing based druid.

((for DPS/offensive druid, the impact on your DPS of the mana motds is so so irrelevent in terms of the whole raids dps that it doesnt matter. While one extra heal is far more likely to critically impact raid sucess))

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Considering how tiny the difference from raid point of view.
From group point of view. HPs>Mana by a larger option.
We do run out of hps way more often than mana.

Sigh, it isn't +/- 40 hp or +/- 100 hp that matters.

It is making that decision on every piece of gear you own.

If you value HP over mana, you will tend to pick items that have (say) 30 more hp and 30 less mana on average. Over 20 slots, that's +600 hp and -600 mana, from what you would have otherwise.

Toss augment choices onto that, and you could end up with +1000 hp OR +1000 mana over some "baseline" hp/mana total.

And 1000 hp and 1000 mana matter.

Now, which is better -- +1000 hp or +1000 mana?

I'd take +1000 hps.

The point I was going for Yakk was that once you reach a certain minimum level ((based on where you are progression wise))
there is very little difference.

At elemental through time level.
To me, Once you reach 6k HP (buffed) 5K (unbuffed) Mana

really, is 7K HP and 5K mana or 6k 6k better?

considering boss mobs here are averaging even with ID over 1k a hit on my druid, your talking a 1 blow difference. most of the time
mobs are doubling to quadding so this might mean ZERO difference in terms of how long you survive

considering that agro limits my expenditure anyway, and that mana regen > mana pool. 1K mana might be only 3 to 5 so spells
over the course of an entire boss fight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

where this is more a difference is during yard trash and/or xping
when only hits up to 900. Average is more like 500. Then 1k hps = surving 2 extra swings and often might mean survivng that extra round giving 6 more critical seonds for a tank to grab agro
or someone to heal you.

Course this is also where mana burst pool can play out.
If you ever have an overpull, and your spam healing multiple tanks I have seen my burst mana be critical.

Now, which is better -- +1000 hp or +1000 mana?


Let's make it more...interesting. I can give you either 10,000 hp or 10,000 mana. Either one or the other, no midway combination. Which do you pick?

Hmmmm....perhaps I'll make a poll....:)

10k hp 0 mana? That I wouldn't quite take =-p
0hp 10k mana wouldn't quite work either =-p
If you mean +10,000 hp or +10,000 mana, I'd go with the hp. I'd like never be able to drain an extra 10,000 mana, I'd surely end up in situations where I'd be draining that extra 10,000 hp.

[Edit] I see you made the poll, and meant +10,000 hp, so I'll go vote there too =-p