View Full Forums : The plural of "loot" is not "loots"


Scirocco
11-10-2003, 08:55 PM
"Loot" already refers to multiple items. Everytime I hear someone say "nice loots!," I want to let Kermit (my pet lorok) take a bite out of their rear. :)

And while I'm at it, the past tense of "cast" is "cast," not "casted."


Everyone makes grammatical errors, but the above should not be committed by any native speaker of the English language. Yes, I recognize that non-native speakers make errors like this all the time, but 75% of the players in this game do not speak English as a second language!

Hmmm...on second thought, perhaps it's accurate to say that 75% of the players in EQ don't speak English at all....


So, anyone have any similar errors that drive them nuts?

Diggins
11-10-2003, 09:13 PM
Uh no. The plural of loot is actually 'lewtz', just as the plural of great loot is really 'phat lewtz'. Don't you know anything!? :cool:

Sobe Silvertree
11-10-2003, 09:21 PM
pulls up a chair..

takes out a piece of paper and a pencil..

/bell Rings..

Schools in Session!

While I will agree with you on both grammar recommendations.. I still cast’d a lot of spells over the course of Sobe's life and was blessed with a lot of phat lootz! :P

As for others:

heh is short for.. hehe ..
but not all the time.. some people I have found take offense to "heh".. they take it as a stuck up person response or a demeaning response.

I have found it to be a more common among people when they either A) have no response 'heh' or possibly negative in manner so they give way to a "heh" instead of chalking up an arguement B) "heh" yes you got me! (when they are they find themselves at the butt end of a joke C) heh.. "meaning" I rather not give a response... so I give up D) "heh" not in the mood for jokes, but yea that was funny E) Heh "sometimes in response to a statement that really didn't make sense, or a person says something that really didn't need to be said.

There is so many meanings to "heh" and it does transcribe through a text environment such as Boards, IRC's, Game's etc.. if you try not take offense to the word.. sometimes that three letter word will allow people to focus in on what your saying instead of by-passing your entire post due to the fact that your arguing a statement that really is just someone’s view.. that may not coincide with your own.

oddjob1244
11-10-2003, 09:40 PM
"Dieing" (heal me I'm dieing)
"These ones" (want me to pull these ones or those ones)

Oryane
11-10-2003, 09:42 PM
I would much rather them use bad grammar than Haxxor speech. There is nothing that peeves me more than "Schweet Dewd! Teh Dr00D has phat lewtz!" And when someone says n00B I want to skin them alive and make them wear it inside out. :D

Panamah
11-11-2003, 12:45 AM
Casted drives me nuts. And incomming... coming has one "m".

You guys are smart though and know this. I'm sing to the choir.

Tudamorf
11-11-2003, 01:19 AM
"I could care less" (should be "I could NOT care less" or "I couldn't care less" to convey the meaning that you don't care about it)

"should of"

And of course the infamous "casted"
Originally posted by Scirocco
Yes, I recognize that non-native speakers make errors like this all the time, but 75% of the players in this game do not speak English as a second language!
Are you kidding? If you see someone using proper grammar and spelling, chances are they're British or German. Very rarely is it the odd American who was actually taught his native language.

Kineada
11-11-2003, 01:45 AM
The singular form of shaman is shaman.

The plural form of shaman is shaman.

The masculine form of shaman is shaman.

The feminine form of shaman is shaman.

I guess shaman like to keep things simple.

Tilien Venator
11-11-2003, 02:08 AM
I'm going to add a new line to my NI hotkey.

/tell Scirocco It's l00t5!

Balise
11-11-2003, 05:16 AM
Its not a grammatical thing (and please dont pick apart my poor spelling and grammer), but one of the things that really gets me going is the use of PST.

I live in Ontario and here PST is "Provincial Sales Tax" it doesnt mean "please send tell" like these newer people think it does.

Also, I was playing EQ for over two years before I saw the use of PST. Two years of EQ without the need for PST. Why would that change? I am just wondering as PST seems to imply the obvious (now there is a word for that). Something that implies the obvious is uneeded, especially since you are using an abreviation of the phrase as it is.

If you want to sell something say WTS [insert item name here], DO NOT stick PST on the end. I am NOT going to spam the market channel or whatever channel that you 'might' be watching at the time with a "you tell market: ' I'll buy that off ya' " that makes absolutely no sense at all. I am going to /tell ya and talk to you that way. I remember people using the public channels in the early days for auctions and price checks and discussions, but if you wanted to Buy something from someone, you sent a TELL. IF you want to group with someone or ask them if they needed a group, you sent them a TELL. People putting PST on the end of their statements or questions just make themselves look dumb for not realizing that sending them a tell is known to be the most efficient form of getting a response from a person or responding to them. If someone doesnt know this, then they should very well be told or realize it cause I wont cater to them by putting PST on the end of my statements just so they know that they can reach me through tells.

[End of Rant]

Aidon
11-11-2003, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by Tudamorf
"I could care less" (should be "I could NOT care less" or "I couldn't care less" to convey the meaning that you don't care about it)

I could care less is shortening of "I could care less, but not by much"...or just a sarcasism. In short, is a colloquialism, not poor grammar, in and of itself.

"should of"

And of course the infamous "casted"

Are you kidding? If you see someone using proper grammar and spelling, chances are they're British or German. Very rarely is it the odd American who was actually taught his native language.

The same can be said for most any language. Those who grow up learning a language native learn it full of slang, colloquialisms, and common usages. Those who learn how to speak a language as a second language usually learn it via formalized learning and thus learn the grammatically correct version.

I'm far more upset that OED included Moggle (sp? That Harry Potter word) into the "official" english language, than I am that folks say "I could care less".

Cantatus
11-11-2003, 06:12 AM
The plural form of shaman is shaman.

Actually, shamans is an accepted form:

Main Entry: sha·man
Pronunciation: 'shä-m&n, 'shA- also sh&-'män
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural shamans
Etymology: ultimately from Evenki (Tungusic language of Siberia) samAn
Date: 1698
1 : a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2 : one who resembles a shaman; especially : HIGH PRIEST 3
- sha·man·ic /sh&-'ma-nik, -'mä-/ adjective

Tudamorf
11-11-2003, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Aidon
The same can be said for most any language. Those who grow up learning a language native learn it full of slang, colloquialisms, and common usages. Those who learn how to speak a language as a second language usually learn it via formalized learning and thus learn the grammatically correct version.
Unfortunately, it can only be said for American English, since in just about every other developed country students <b>do</b> undergo formalized education in spelling, grammar, and usage. In the United States, most don't. I bet many of the "should of" crowd would not even be able to explain to me why that phrase is pitifully wrong, or would not be able to explain simple grammar like the difference between "had" and "have had".

By the way, why isn't this thread in OT?

Arfabel
11-11-2003, 07:59 AM
The PST also drives me nuts.
WTF are we supposed to do? Send smoke signals?

Greggo
11-11-2003, 08:09 AM
If you are at all interested in why English is the way she is, in both her English and American forms, I would commend the Bryson books "Mother Tongue" and "Made in America". Helps to explain a lot of the oddities of the language.

You is not spelt "u"
Your is not spelt "ur"
Please is not spelt "plz"
STFU is actually rather offensive, it is not a joke.

Sekira
11-11-2003, 08:52 AM
I hate when people ask me "Are you going to sale that?" I hear it often enough that it *has* to be an accepted misuse of the word sale somewhere, but the word "sell" exists for a reason!

Scirocco
11-11-2003, 08:57 AM
By the way, why isn't this thread in OT?


Because we are discussing the abuse of language in relation to EQ.

Sylphan
11-11-2003, 09:37 AM
I'll disagree on one point -- saying "these ones" and "those ones" is almost as natural in the Northwestern US as "y'all" is in the Southeastern US. If it becomes common enough it could be redefined as correct.

I agree that grammar has been atrocious in EQ. But plurals, posessives, -s and -'s are often misused outside EQ as well.

What bothers me the most is when players don't even attempt to spell. They type u, ur, thx, plz, and other such abbreviations deliberately.

Maody
11-11-2003, 09:49 AM
waaah scirocco.....please don't confuse my little foreign mind!

boot -> boots

but not

loot -> loots

Where is the logic in this ??

:D

Greggo
11-11-2003, 10:40 AM
No logic Maody.

I think "boot" meaning footware came to English from French whereas "loot" came from Hindi.

..and then the plural of foot isn't "foots" it's "feet".

English is a mongrel, there's no denying it!!

Willain
11-11-2003, 10:57 AM
There is not possesive. Their is not a contraction of "They are." They're is not a reference to a location.

I'm not terribly upset by abbreviations such as "plz" or "ty" - I accept that most people don't type as quickly as I. In fact, I think I'd prefer "yw" to "your welcome" :-)

Panamah
11-11-2003, 11:11 AM
One thing to keep in mind, you can't tell if someone is an ignoramus or a bad typist sometimes. A very good friend of mine is an accomplished professional person but just doesn't type well. She comes off looking kind of stupid in EQ because she uses a lot of abbreviations. In reality, she's smart as a whip.

Scirocco
11-11-2003, 11:32 AM
boot -> boots

but not

loot -> loots

Where is the logic in this ??


The logic is that "boot" refers to a single boot. "Loot," however, already refers to multiple items. In essence, it isn't in singular form.


That's presuming you want to find logic in English. There is none, of course.


boot -> boots
root -> roots
foot -> feet
[piece of loot] -> loot

Panamah
11-11-2003, 11:59 AM
Hey, in Hawaii isn't hello and goodbye the same word? You think English is confusing!?!

A friend of mine is taking Japanese, now THAT is a confusing language. They have a case for "those things over there", "these things over here" and one for in between. Then I think they have more than one type of plural (trying to remember what he told me) that indicates just how many, roughly, you're talking about. I can just imagine Japan as an ancient culture, bored out of their minds on their little island, amusing themselves by adding all sorts of fussy details to their language to entertain themselves.

Me, I have trouble with languages that have masculine and feminine objects. Whose silly idea was it to do that? Hello!?! Tables, pens and chairs do not have genitals! They can't be male or female!!!! Sheesh.

aludarus
11-11-2003, 12:07 PM
To Too Two
There Their They're
Ridiculous not--> Rediculous

Kineada
11-11-2003, 12:48 PM
A friend of mine is taking Japanese, now THAT is a confusing language

I just learned recently that "hai" does not mean yes. Rather, it means "Yes, I hear you." It does not denote agreement but acknowledgement.

Oldoak
11-11-2003, 12:56 PM
Quote:

"I could care less" (should be "I could NOT care less" or "I couldn't care less" to convey the meaning that you don't care about it)


...I COULD care less [in the elipsis - it is just not very likely that I WOULD!]


I know it is a rationalization but it is how I have always dealt with the usage on this one. Some phrases are used to the extent that you just accept them as is, and for me, this is one of them.

Oldoak
11-11-2003, 12:59 PM
Quote:

A friend of mine is taking Japanese, now THAT is a confusing language.


As I understand it, in Japanese they have different ways to count based on whether you are counting animals, people, flat things (iirc that is strange but true), etc.

Getting into the mindset of a language is very useful for learning it of course. Understanding why you make those distinctions...

When I took French, I always tried to get my head around why innanimate objects were masculine or feminine. That really gives you a lot of insight into the culture.

guluvasea
11-11-2003, 01:13 PM
ok...

if loot means multiple is this the same as meaning plural?

and if loot is plural ...

then what would be the singular form?

and if my spelling is 'bad' and my grammer is 'incorrect'...

it is because i choose to be illiterate in my 'native' language

dekkon fuzzyfeet...
phat lewtz lovin deranged liddl dr00d

Menlaiene
11-11-2003, 01:39 PM
I majored in english writing & rhetoric in college, so I know proper grammar, but I tend to let things slide in EQ that I wouldn't on a professional document. That being said, things like "ur," using numbers in place of letters (b4, etc.) still annoy the crap out of me. Maybe it's not fair, but if someone uses "u" instead of "you" they look dumb to me. I know some people can't type that fast, but it's only two letters.

You can't have loots the same way you can't have milks, only pieces of loot and glasses of milk. But I may have used the term loots before simply because it is part of the EQ vernacular. I can't really remember.

English is a really interesting language, but since it has taken words and phrases from so many other languages, it's completely inconsistent, which is probably why so many native speakers seem to have problems with it. Another reason is that (at least where I live) grammar instruction is discontinued in high school and replaced with literature. It was probably assumed that by high school, students should have a firm grasp of grammar, but sadly this is not the case.

Greggo
11-11-2003, 02:15 PM
Panamah - I agree you do sometimes need to know the person behind the keyboard...one of my guildmates has a war wound which has left him with only one hand and ...ummm.....certain issues with focus and conncetration. I am willing to cut him far more slack then the ones who just cant be bothered.

And of course anyone for whom english is a second language.

Vowelumos
11-11-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Balise
I
Also, I was playing EQ for over two years before I saw the use of PST. Two years of EQ without the need for PST. Why would that change? I am just wondering as PST seems to imply the obvious (now there is a word for that). Something that implies the obvious is uneeded, especially since you are using an abreviation of the phrase as it is.[End of Rant]

You may recall the movement when many of us had the anti PST avatar. PST is the single most obnoxious thing people have done in public messages in EQ. It implies that the reader is too stupid to properly communicate with you. It is redundant, it is pointless and it is rude.

Fortunately auctions are less common than they once were. Unfortunately they all use PST in them.

I long for a better filtering system were I can send any message with PST in it to the place it belongs.

Panamah
11-11-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by guluvasea
ok...

if loot means multiple is this the same as meaning plural?

and if loot is plural ...

then what would be the singular form?

and if my spelling is 'bad' and my grammer is 'incorrect'...

it is because i choose to be illiterate in my 'native' language

dekkon fuzzyfeet...
phat lewtz lovin deranged liddl dr00d

It's like money. You don't say, "I found monies today!" If you find a quarter and a dime. You would say, "I found money". Money is both plural and singular, just like loot is.

Scirocco
11-11-2003, 02:35 PM
Actually, the plural of "money" IS "monies" or "moneys"....:)


PST actually had some import 3 years ago. Back then, auctioning for an item often did take place in /auc in whatever zone served as your market or bazaar. Auctioning as in competitive bidding for an item in the /auc channel. It was fun.

If you didn't want an open auction, you added PST to indicate that you wanted a private tell from people with bids or offers.

Of course, nowadays no one conducts a true auction anymore, so PST is superfluous.

Vowelumos
11-11-2003, 03:20 PM
Hence the redundant point, a very common context was:

/auction WTS LoW 100pp *FIRM* PST

Now I suppose they may be trying to avoid the responses:

/ooc D00D Langseaxe Suxxors

But in my experience nothing will stop the leet speakers.

I am sure it had different origins on different server. I never remember seeing it on Tribunal (Oct 99 to Oct 2000) and it was at least 6 months after Tholuxe came up before it became common.


I am sure there is something very wrong with me, it just bugs me.

The only thing more obnoxious is sellers unwilling to name a price. I absolutely detested EC selling for that. never seemed to have that problem when we had the once a week trade fairs in North Karana, people came prepared.

For example:

/auction WTS LoW PST

/tell ectunnelbot_01 How much for LoW?

ectunnlebot_01 Tellls you Dewd make an offer!!!!

/tell ectunnlebot_01 75pp

ectunnlebot_01 tells you: Dewd you are a clueless NEWB, go away!

/tell ectunnlebot_01 you told me to make an offer...

ectunnlebot_01 tells you: Yeah like a real offer, you suxxors, I sell them for 76pp all the time.

/tell ectunnlebot_01 Why did you not just 76pp to begin with?

ectunnlebot_01 tells you: .......Nothing (apparently out of leet speak insults)........

You begin memorizing Ring of Misty...


(Halflings always have to run home after a stresfull experience like this. That is why it is on the Pants)

Artemisian
11-11-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Tudamorf
"I could care less" (should be "I could NOT care less" or "I couldn't care less" to convey the meaning that you don't care about it)


That one always gets to me too. It's very rare that someone actually says it right.

rahn_rn
11-11-2003, 03:41 PM
It's not specific to EQ by any means, but the one that drives me up the wall is the use of the word "loose" to mean "lose." I'm not sure when this happened, as I don't recall ever really seeing anyone having a problem with it 5 years ago, but it shows up all the time these days it seems. Perhaps I just didn't care as much back then :P

At any rate, you don't loose a loose tooth.

Also, another one I find interesting, though maybe a bit more understandable, is the word "whose." It's very rare that I ever actually see it used in the first place. It seems like many people simply say "who's" universally because they sound similar. "Whose" is the possessive of "who" however, whereas "who's" is a contraction of "who is" and "who has."

Scirocco
11-11-2003, 03:51 PM
The only thing more obnoxious is sellers unwilling to name a price. I absolutely detested EC selling for that. never seemed to have that problem when we had the once a week trade fairs in North Karana, people came prepared.


It is just as obnoxious for buyers to expect sellers to name their starting price. After all, why shouldn't a buyer be equally prepared, and equally willing to name their starting offer?

The reason is because the person giving the starting offer (whether an offer to sell or to buy) is potentially at a disadvantage. They may be revealing that they know little of the real range the item should go for. For example, I am willing to sell item X for 5000 to 6000 pp, let's say. A potential buyer comes along who is willing to pay 9000 to 10K. If I go first with the top end of my range, 6000 pp, I've left thousands of pp on the table. If they go first and lowball me (from their perspective) at 7000 pp or so, I know that I am likely to get several thousand more pp out of them (and THEY will have put more plat on the table than they needed to).

Of course, in the game if I start I never go with the top end of my likely range....I add several thousand pp to that, so my opening offer would be, "My wife and mistress both would kill me if I received less than 10K for this fine item X!"

We have a generation (or two or three) grown up on fixed price shopping, which is sad. This is not Kmart. Some of the most fun in buying something is bargaining the price up or down. People who refuse to bargain at all are just no fun, and I usually decline to do business with them (unless their "firm" price is such a good deal I can't pass it up... :)

Aidon
11-11-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Artemisian
That one always gets to me too. It's very rare that someone actually says it right.

Actually, "I could care less" is a facetious statement. The second half of the statement is normally assumed to be understood. i.e. "I could care less, but not by much" or "I could care less about this issue but it would take much effort"

Its just another colloquialism, not something I view as a grammatically incorrect statement.

Maody
11-11-2003, 04:10 PM
Tables, pens and chairs do not have genitals! They can't be male or female!!!! Sheesh

Well, from a german point of view those 3 items are all male. :p

More confusing may be that fact that pants are female (as well as bottle, newspaper, cigarette, sunglasses, just to name a few) but a skirt is male!

(take this as revenge for confusing germans with boots & loots) :moon:

Drake09
11-11-2003, 04:13 PM
I kill people whenever I hear..

"yea XXXXX Guild just whiped on %T"

#(*)%Q#%^Q#&*)^%()Q#^%^#*%^%

ITS WIPE. W I P E. Pisses me off to no end for some reason.

Kineada
11-11-2003, 04:23 PM
As opposed to

"Yea, XXXXX Guild just got whipped by %T"

Kineada
11-11-2003, 04:25 PM
Sorry ... souffle joke.

Vila
11-11-2003, 04:50 PM
very irksome...

comming -> coming
loose -> lose

not sure when the "double-up" emerged, but this too is bothersome...

hihi
kk

Tudamorf
11-11-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Aidon
Actually, "I could care less" is a facetious statement. The second half of the statement is normally assumed to be understood. i.e. "I could care less, but not by much" or "I could care less about this issue but it would take much effort"
The phrase "I couldn't care less" has clear origin and usage; I have never in my life heard anyone say or seen anyone write "I could care less, but not by much". I also just did a Google search that turned up no instances of the phrase as you mention it.

Dropping the proper negative is just another byproduct of American illiteracy. The only place I regularly see the incorrect "I could care less" is on U.S.-based Internet forums, where I see it very often. I guarantee you that not all the people writing it are trying to be sarcastic, they just have no idea what the correct form is or why their form is incorrect.

Aldarion_Shard
11-11-2003, 05:32 PM
"for all intensive purposes"
...for all intents and purposes.

"case and point"
...case in point.

they seem silly, but dont ask me why: they bother the @#$% out of me.

Scirocco
11-11-2003, 06:06 PM
Heh...I have never seen either of those two. I probably would have laughed myself silly if I had...:)

Oldoak
11-11-2003, 06:37 PM
That point is mute...
That point is MOOT!

(ARGH that one pisses me off..

Cloudien
11-11-2003, 06:38 PM
Ahh, American education. Kids over there are too busy waving guns at each other to learn anything useful ;)

Rogues. Not rouges, ROGUES!

Apostrophies aren't exactly rocket science either; it took me about 5 minutes to learn the rules. But every day, I see signs like "pick your own strawberry's" and phrases like "pull a few more orc's please charlie."

Plurals don't have an apostrophe: not even plural acronyms (it's "I have 2 CPUs," not "I have 2 CPU's.")

Possessives normally have an apostrophe ("Tunare's teachings") but NOT when the posessor is an 'it'.
"The wolf licks it's nads" is wrong
(As per the previous points, "The wolf licks it's nad's" is also wrong!)
"The wolf licks its nads" is correct.

Don't even get me started on the complete inability of most HTML-based input systems to accept the double-space between a full-stop and a new sentence.

(I bet my own post has about 10 grammatical errors after that!)

Oh, one more thing. "Spreading FUD" or "That is FUD" do not mean "Spreading muck" and "That is bullpoo" respectively, even though many people use FUD in that context.
FUD is actually an acronym that stands for "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt."

(Often used in Microsoft/Linux debates, but applicable in many other places)

Edit: Something else!
SoE = Spirit of Eagle
SOE = Sony Online Entertainment

Therefore, our game is not run by SoE.

Kanissa
11-11-2003, 06:56 PM
Yet another note on the "PST" ranting--when I first saw it, I always thought "Pacific Standard Time," which of course made no sense. Yes, it's useless. (Look, "it's"! Used correctly!)

As one of the rare college students with decent grammar, I always end up editing my friends' papers. I can't agree more (is that like "I couldn't care less"?) when people say that Americans have no freaking clue how to speak, let alone write, English properly.

And yeah, people who don't put two spaces between sentences really annoy me too.

Aidon
11-11-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Tudamorf
The phrase "I couldn't care less" has clear origin and usage; I have never in my life heard anyone say or seen anyone write "I could care less, but not by much". I also just did a Google search that turned up no instances of the phrase as you mention it.

Dropping the proper negative is just another byproduct of American illiteracy. The only place I regularly see the incorrect "I could care less" is on U.S.-based Internet forums, where I see it very often. I guarantee you that not all the people writing it are trying to be sarcastic, they just have no idea what the correct form is or why their form is incorrect.

Maybe its a locational thing. The phrase "I could care less" is spoken in a specific manner which is indicative of the intended sarcasm. In a similar manner in which "That is soo bad" is frequently used (or was frequently used, its dropped in usage recently in my circles) to indicate that something is good or "awesome", etc.

Don't confused colloquial usage with illiteracy.

Further, don't assume that Americans so illiterate relative to the rest of the world. The fact that the internet is so easily and cheaply accessible in the US means that regardless of education or a mere disregard for formal usage in a casual setting, people are able to speak out on the internet cheaply and easily. This isn't so in most other nations.

I suspect that there are plenty of people in South America, or Northern Europe, or Western Asia, or wherever, who do not speak their language "properly". I also suspect that most of those languages are not a linguistically complicated and illogical as English. I further suggest that many languages are not so stringently "outlined" as English.

Aidon
11-11-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Cloudien
Ahh, American education. Kids over there are too busy waving guns at each other to learn anything useful ;)


Ever gone to school in an American School?

I went to a few of them. Didn't see a single gun in there, strange. Must have been freak of nature because the Media never exaggerates...

Damn idiots always scorning America and her educational system...yet no other nation is a more popular destination for education and very few nations can come close to America's accomplishments, and no nation on the planet has as many internationally recognized and respected Universities as the United States.

We have the finest centers of learning on the planet. We have the finest centers for research. We are the foremost scientific, literary, artistic, and medical pioneers on the planet.

And yet, you scorn our educational systems. Pathetic.

Riva
11-11-2003, 11:07 PM
Ya kthx Aidon but we really couldn't care less~~

Quoting you..

Don't confused colloquial usage with illiteracy.

Diggins
11-11-2003, 11:10 PM
One trend the internet has spawned that really makes me grind my teeth are the awful word mutations such as:

u = you
ur = you are/you're
thx = thanks
plz = please
cuz = because
k = ok
wut = what
keke = I think it's a chuckle emote

I guess typing is such a chore that's it's just too damn difficult to type a couple extra letters. The usage of 'u' instead of 'you' just makes me want to go postal. It used to be relegated to eight year old boys on Counter Strike forums or bubble headed teenage valley girls in chat rooms. Alas, it's becoming more and more common. :mad: I've seen postings from otherwise intelligent people employing 'u' sprinkled throughout entire paragraphs. Even worse, sometimes they'll switch back and forth. A sentence will have the proper identifier 'you' but a couple sentences later they revert to the bastardization 'u'. Aaargh! Reading that kind of crap gives me a headache.

Fortunately, two other trends are dying off. One is the 'l33t haxxor dOOd' speech with it's alternating caps and substitution of letters for numbers that was popular back in the mid-late 90's. The other is the 'werd up homey G' talk by pasty white pencil-neck geeks trying to come off as being some sort of badass gangsta thug from the hood.

All in all, I guess the war against bad grammar in EQ and on the internet is being slowly won one battle at a time.

Gunny Burlfoot
11-11-2003, 11:26 PM
I'll have to chime in on this, because improper spelling of words and improper grammar usage irritates me enormously. I try not to let it show, but this seems the thread to air some of the frustrations of being around English-lazy people all day.

I could make a very long list of things that some lesser beings twitch out of their keyboards, but many of my prime grievances have already been voiced in this thread.

Anytime someone comes up to me and starts spouting off "n e 1 got sumthing?" that is not roleplaying a ogrish intelligence, immediately sets me off. I used to try to point out such things, but, unfortunately, I have been jaded and have gotten to the point where they are not worth correcting anyone. It's just too much trouble, and the porcine masses don't appreciate fine pearls anyway.

However, I continually try not to judge people by their abysmal lack of proper spelling, punctuation, grammar, and have been surprised in several instances where the offending person is quite intelligent and thoughtful, but that is the exception that DOES prove the rule.

Most of the people that are lazy enough about spelling and grammar in EQ, SWG, and any other chat based game have absolutely nothing worth taking up my time for.

Most of them will never realize that in this new, online world, the average person's only way to establish, rightly or wrongly, your level of competence and intelligence is how you communicate the "written" (typed) word. There are no obvious visual or audial clues that this person may not be worth your time in an online encounter. Moving about EQ with such pithy sayings as "dud i will pay u 20 fro por t now!1!" is the equivalent of moving through the real world with a long white string of drool dangling from your chin indefinitely.

As to the charge of America's schools being subpar, I will have to sadly agree. Not because of the money we spend, not because of any lack of teacher motivation, not even because of the gang-style violence that seems to be moving from urban to suburban schools. A properly motivated child, as long as he/she has library access, will be able to educate themselves. It is first and foremost because most of the drones out there having children have never realized the awesome responsibility of raising a child correctly.

When a couple becomes a mother and a father, their whole lives should change direction. Everything should be secondary to raising the child to become another productive member of society. It means for 18 years at least, you have no "your time". Period. If you can't hack devoting your entire life to the advancement of another being, then you should not have kids at all. Society would benefit more from having less overall people than having more spoiled, narcisstic, morally bereft brats. (which then find their way on to EQ to annoy me! :rolleyes: )

That's my 0.02 cp anyhow!

Sincerely,

Tudamorf
11-12-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Aidon
We have the finest centers of learning on the planet. And yet, you scorn our educational systems. Pathetic.
Those statements aren't contradictory. Yes, in the case of higher learning, the United States has <i>some</i> great universities and research centers that are among the best in the world. But when it comes to basic education, the United States falls way behind in the world. When you look at inner city education, it's beyond pathetic. They're about guns and drugs, not education. Students can "graduate" high school without even knowing how to read, write, or do basic arithmetic.

Show me a U.S. secondary school curriculum that includes mandatory, separate courses in grammar, literature, and foreign language, like you'd typically find in many foreign schools. If you look, you'll probably see "English" courses which are patchwork literature/writing courses taught by teachers who barely have a grasp on the topics themselves. It's no coincidence that students taught in the past 10-20 years have little grasp of spelling or grammar.

Also, how many schools in the United States have strict mandatory exit exams, like you would commonly find in foreign school? When they tried to implement a basic exit exam requirement in California, the whole thing got stalled because many students couldn't possibly pass the basic test covering English and math at (barely) a high school level.

Sadly, the prevailing world notion of "American = illiterate" is more and more becoming a reality.

Netura
11-12-2003, 02:06 AM
that some lesser beings
Im sorry, but to judge someone as a "lesser being" based on their written ability is absolutely rediculous.

Just my .02cp

edit: Also, Gunny: you sound like an adult who is out of the educational system. Im a senior at a public high school in the US, that doesn't have enough money to keep all of its athletic team and academic teams going. You may say that its not a lack of teacher motivation, or lack of money, or even the "gang style violence" (that gave me a laugh btw.) However, you are incorrect.

Every day I face the fact that I can't read the books that are given to me, because they are so old and worn out that half the pages are missing. My school doesn't have enough money to buy new books, therefore my learning, and my classmates learning is affected.

Teachers aren't motivated to teach. An average teacher of mine comes into class in the beginning of first semester, and gives us a week by week syllibus of what will be taught for the year. They will then procede to bombard us with handouts and assignments. Of which they have us read aloud in class, and call that teaching.

Also, A majority of the teachers at my school have student teachers from local colleges, that don't know how to teach, yet are expected to teach instead of the teacher.
You mention gang style violence...HELLO!!!! teenagers will always try and cause trouble, and to stereotype children of a public education as causing this trouble is rediculous. Try going to a private school with a tuition of 18 grand a year, and tell me if they don't have students who start fights.

Sorry for ranting, but i find it rediculous that people who aren't actually in a system are droning on and on about their beliefs. If you want to pass judgement on why teenagers and public high school students in America are so illiterate, please come to my school and take a tour instead of spoiting an opinion that you have made from watching the news or reading the paper.

ps: I hope I didn't offend anyone.

ceno
11-12-2003, 03:47 AM
"Has anyone got an XXX for sell ?"

FOR SALE...FORRRRR SSSAAAALLLLEEEE!

Ahhh...I feel better now.

Cen.

Mildaene
11-12-2003, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by Netura
Im sorry, but to judge someone as a "lesser being" based on their written ability is absolutely rediculous.

Well I don't think it is. You can usually see how mature and smart one is, by how they spell words, construct sentences, and generally seem to understand what they say.

People make mistakes. I make mistakes. However, most mistakes are obvious. Someone who manages to spell the same word differently 4 times in the same sentence, or someone who doesn't seem to have the slightest clue about the expressions they use, because they only try to look good by reusing words they heard elsewhere, I will simply deem not worthy of my communicating with, simply because my time is precious, so I'd rather have instantaneous intelligible communication than losing my time trying to make a moron understand things they probably won't care about anyway, since it doesn't pertain to "phat lewts" (which IS the EQ plural of "loot", by the way ;) ).

Plus, my primary language isn't english, so it always makes me sad to meet people obvioulsy from the USA (or the UK since I moved to Antonius Bayle), who actually seem to be less skilled at english than I am. Although I may sometimes misinterpret things half said into mistakes, due to the fact that I don't actually (nor won't pretend to) master the language (such as the "I could care less" thing... this thing always irked me for some reason, because it makes no sense at all... now it apparently is correct in some parts of the world, although I'm not sure most people use it in the way described in this thread).

To be fair, I have to say that the problem isn't only with the USA, but with internet, since we're having the very same problem here in France. It seems that as soon as people get to use the 'net, their IQ drops to abysmal levels, and they have to use chat lingo and phonic spelling, as if using a "different" (yet the same, but misused) language would instantly tag them as part of the internet population (I bet some studies have already been made on the subject).

So, to me, it's more a sociologic rather than cultural problem (although I understand the internet abbreviations do appeal to people with cultural problems... why waste time understand how a word should be spelt, when it's always abbreviated down to 2 letters anyway?). I'd still prefer to talk to someone who can actually communicate, or even try to, and look down on those who make no effort at all. Might be just me though.



-Candileth, warden of the Kithicor forest,
Antonius Bayle.

"Hey! at least the undead don't cut down trees!"

Aidon
11-12-2003, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by Riva
Ya kthx Aidon but we really couldn't care less~~

Quoting you..

Don't confuse typographical errors either.

Damn fool.

Riva
11-12-2003, 07:35 AM
Very well then Aidon. Quoting you yet again!

I went to a few of them. Didn't see a single gun in there, strange. Must have been freak of nature because the Media never exaggerates...

Here you are making references to multiple schools in the first sentence, yet in the second and third you seem to infer a singular entity. These are most certainly not typograhical errors (though a certain level of uncertainty is introduced by such badly constructed sentences and I could be wrong), and also very ironic since the very title of this thread takes a stab at incorrect usage of plurals.

To make multiple linguistic errors while stating how exceedingly wonderful the quality of your education is in comparison to global literacy levels, is laughable. If you get up on the box and claim the high ground, you better be ready for such comments.

I on the hand, as the heckler - am free of such a burden :)

Riva
11-12-2003, 07:38 AM
Cuz ur just as teh suk as teh rest of us k?

Greggo
11-12-2003, 08:45 AM
Haha Aidan

Without wishing to turn this into a "America is great all bow before her: America sucks" debate. I have 4 kids in the American public (state) school system. One of the reasons I wont be extending my time here is PRECISELY because of the poor quality of the education, and not just the 3R teaching but also the truly awful cultural indoctrination. That said, I fully expect and hope that they will return here (or perhaps the UK) for their post graduate education because of the fine university system.

B_Delacroix
11-12-2003, 08:49 AM
65 pal lfg or lfa, pst

AAARG. All the stupid acronyms drive me nuts. You can hear an audible groan from the english teacher's graves over the grammatical atrocities commited daily while online.

I have learned to cope, though. If you ever try to help anyone spell better or use a word properly they just get offended. So I let them go on believing they are right until it is important one day and they are writing that way on a real paper at work. Then it will suddenly become more important.

Saurin
11-12-2003, 09:27 AM
"Show me a U.S. secondary school curriculum that includes mandatory, separate courses in grammar, literature, and foreign language"


While that may be true in most if not all public school systems, many private high schools in this country in fact do have these requirements. I went through the public school system until attending college and I managed to take three years of Russian and two years of French before graduating, so while not required, at least in some systems opportunities are present if the student will take advantage of them. Having said all that, I do agree that in all public schools taking a foreign language should be a requirement.

Now to the topic at hand. These really stick in my craw:

NE1
for all intensive purposes
PST
u
ur
PLZ (so many feel the need to capitalize this for some reason)

Kopper
11-12-2003, 10:02 AM
I suspect that there are plenty of people in South America, or Northern Europe, or Western Asia, or wherever, who do not speak their language "properly". I also suspect that most of those languages are not a linguistically complicated and illogical as English. I further suggest that many languages are not so stringently "outlined" as English.

Aidon, you defend your educational system, yet you slump in one of the worlds most educated, richest and advanced part (Northern Europe - Scandinavia) together with South America and similar places. What does that tell us about your education?

Usually it is the people from Scandinavia who you can expect to have atleast some resemblance of decent grammar and spelling. Both with english and their native language. Scandinavian basic education is top of the world and far beyond U.S. basic education - which you would know if you had some of that education you seem to appreciate so much.

It is true that you do have excellent centers for higher learning but how many of the students/professionals in those places are foreigners or 1st-2nd generation americans? I suggest you find out, you might be surprised. There is a reason why U.S. is continually luring in more foreign professionals and researchers.

As far as to the linguistically complicated, I'd suggest you check out languages like finnish or swedish (Scandinavian languages). They may not be quite as simple as you seem to think.

Galamar
11-12-2003, 10:05 AM
Then again, this could just be the evolution of the language. Eh.

Scirocco
11-12-2003, 10:07 AM
Time out.

Folks who want to vent on the comparative strengths or weaknesses of various educational systems are free to do so in a separate thread, either in the OT or Unkempt boards. Otherwise I will lock this thread and boot it over to Unkempt myself.

Grenoble
11-12-2003, 11:34 AM
I have to bring this one up cause it's an insanely anal pet peeve of mine, and I hear it all the time...and not in game.

People who say "drownded". It is "drowned"...one syllable. "Drownded" makes the hair on my neck stand straight up.

So does 'u' for 'you', as far as in game peeves. I understand poor typing skills but to me that's just laziness. And when used towards me, I feel, a certain lack of respect. I don't warrant 2 more letters?

But then, this is from someone who has never been able to say "library". It comes out "liberry" no matter how I try.

And "Charlston" Heston. Man, I have a huge mental block against that guy's name!

Panamah
11-12-2003, 11:49 AM
I know two people that seem to have dyslexic mouths. My dad says "misconscrewed", "cucumper", DvD comes out as Vdd. A friend of mine, very smart lady, says Brefuss (instead of breakfast) and a few other mispronounciations.

I pronounce things right, generally, but sometimes my fingers go ape-$hit on me when I'm trying to type. For instance, I know how to spell absurd, I pronounce it with a d on the end, but when I type that word, I almost always end it in a "b". Then there is their, there and they're. I know which to use and when, but sometimes when I'm on auto-piliot my fingers provide the wrong one. Makes me feel real stupid when I'm rereading something I've written. It's a brain programming glitch, I'm positive!

Kineada
11-12-2003, 01:36 PM
Feh ... I find myself saying prolly in RL now :(

guluvasea
11-12-2003, 01:51 PM
this is an interesting thread.

this is just a game.

this toon i play is a halfling druid and the way that i type my conversation with others is how i perceive a halfling druid would talk using common.

this is not a perfect world, this here realm of norrath...

dekkon

Nimchip
11-12-2003, 02:01 PM
ewww "prolly", "u"....
It's strange because the people on my guild used to wonder if I was from the US at all as I didn't use any acronyms, or abbreviations like all the others. Well i'm in fact puerto rican, I don't live in the US, I live here in this tiny island. :)

You guys shouldn't worry though, puertorican people talk in IMs with abbreviations (which I despise) too. My own little brother uses them and I always tell him to type clearly to avoid any confusion. We, or should I say, they abbreviate 3 letter words like "que" to "q" or "ke". Drives me nuts.

Jinjre
11-12-2003, 02:34 PM
"try and do something"

you either do it, or you try TO do it. If you did it, it is assumed that you tried.

Scirocco
11-12-2003, 03:54 PM
this toon i play is a halfling druid and the way that i type my conversation with others is how i perceive a halfling druid would talk using common.


LOL....nice try!

Aidon
11-12-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Riva
Very well then Aidon. Quoting you yet again!



Here you are making references to multiple schools in the first sentence, yet in the second and third you seem to infer a singular entity. These are most certainly not typograhical errors (though a certain level of uncertainty is introduced by such badly constructed sentences and I could be wrong), and also very ironic since the very title of this thread takes a stab at incorrect usage of plurals.

To make multiple linguistic errors while stating how exceedingly wonderful the quality of your education is in comparison to global literacy levels, is laughable. If you get up on the box and claim the high ground, you better be ready for such comments.

I on the hand, as the heckler - am free of such a burden :)

I went to a few of them. Didn't see a single gun in there, strange. Must have been freak of nature because the Media never exaggerates...

First of all, this is in a informal area, hence I don't bother ensuring proper spelling or grammar. It isn't worth the time or effort for a message board.

Further, your suggestion that my grammar is off in that statement, isn't entirely true.

I went to a few of them. Ok. Sounds good.

Didn't see a single gun in there. (In where? In school, inferred. Noone ever says "In schools" when refering to the period when they were "in school". Everyone goes to multiple schools while they are in "in school". The usage in the context was correct.)

Must have been freak of nature because the Media never exaggerates... ( aside from the fact that I left an A out, another typographical error, this is in proper tense. The IT before Must is inferred. It is singular. What is It? The fact that there were no guns in school where I went to school.)

I'm sorry if you apparently have difficulties comprehending basic communication. Henceforth I'll strive to remove any stylistic changes to my writing and attempt to emulate a textbook for you.

Erm...or not. I could care less (but not by much, inferred).

Aidon
11-12-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Kopper
Aidon, you defend your educational system, yet you slump in one of the worlds most educated, richest and advanced part (Northern Europe - Scandinavia) together with South America and similar places. What does that tell us about your education?

Usually it is the people from Scandinavia who you can expect to have atleast some resemblance of decent grammar and spelling. Both with english and their native language. Scandinavian basic education is top of the world and far beyond U.S. basic education - which you would know if you had some of that education you seem to appreciate so much.

It is true that you do have excellent centers for higher learning but how many of the students/professionals in those places are foreigners or 1st-2nd generation americans? I suggest you find out, you might be surprised. There is a reason why U.S. is continually luring in more foreign professionals and researchers.

As far as to the linguistically complicated, I'd suggest you check out languages like finnish or swedish (Scandinavian languages). They may not be quite as simple as you seem to think.

I hate the quote system on this board.

Ok, to start.

I was picking geographical areas almost at random. And to be honest, Latvia(Which is in Northern Europe..even though is isn't Scandinavian) or isn't much ahead of (if it is at all) Brazil, or South Africa, or Israel (to choose representative nations from the other areas I mentioned).

I'm glad Scandinavian education is so fine. Its not the purpose of discussion here. As I've never set foot there, I can't really be certain.

I do know, however, you see more people coming from overseas to attend The Ohio State University than the University of Goteborg or Tampere.

Finally, I wasn't suggesting that Dutch, or Norsk, or Swedish, or Lappian, or Finnish, etc. were simple languages. They are certainly more simple than English. English simply is an obtuse, overlarge language lacking in logical usage.

Cloudien
11-12-2003, 06:26 PM
Aidon, please take note of the smiley after my jab on American education. It's there for a very good reason.

Making deliberate generalisations as a joke is nothing new, I frequently state that us Brits are a bunch of beer drinking, pub-crawling piss-heads :)

In this particular case I was taking a tabloid style Anti-US slant. However, anyone who takes the time to get to know me will learn that it has nothing at all to do with real views - I think you're all (mostly!) ace people, along with the rest of the world, and yes... with as many exceptions as anywhere else... well educated.

Even if a few of ya have problems with grammar ;)

Neither of those generalisations is racism, nationalism, or anything else -ism. It's humour.

Lighten up mate, don't be so defensive.

Delvean01
11-12-2003, 06:27 PM
Actually, when typing it is correct to only use one space at the end of a sentence. It is only when writing that two spaces are required at the end of each sentence.

I learned this back when I had a typing course in 6th grade. A proffesor of a grammar course I had in college also taught this. Either I have just had a really bad education (highly unlikely, or one space at the end of each typed sentence is the correct format.

Delvean

guluvasea
11-12-2003, 06:41 PM
well Scirocco,

i had to give it a try ya know.

dek

Cloudien
11-12-2003, 06:43 PM
(Netura): Im sorry, but to judge someone as a "lesser being" based on their written ability is absolutely rediculous.

I'd have to agree, to an extent.

People who can't be *bothered* to look after their writing abilities don't honestly get a great deal of sympathy from me.

But as someone who works for a charitable organisation helping to raise the potential of disadvantaged and disabled people who *want* to better themselves, I've seen a fair few people who... okay they may not even be able to sign their own name. Maybe they never will be able to, for whatever reason.

But they're by no means "lesser beings". Most of them are as intelligent as anyone else, and those who have learning difficulties can still find their strengths and realise their potential. They're still held in as high regard as anyone else, and they're still fun and compassionate people to talk to.

Even ignorance to such detail can be helped. I guess that's what some of this thread is for. Some people don't understand the necessity to communicate in a standard manner on a global network. That's not always their fault if the necessity has never been explained to them. Those that don't care however....

(Mildaene): Someone who manages to spell the same word differently 4 times in the same sentence, or someone who doesn't seem to have the slightest clue about the expressions they use, because they only try to look good by reusing words they heard elsewhere, I will simply deem not worthy of my communicating with

So, people with Dyslexia are not worthy of your listening because they're not a 'perfect' being?

Again I'm all for a nice rant about lack of grammar in general, especially against those that are just lazy, but I see no smilies in some of these elitist posts.

Cloudien
11-12-2003, 07:12 PM
(Delvean01): Actually, when typing it is correct to only use one space at the end of a sentence. It is only when writing that two spaces are required at the end of each sentence.

Interesting. It just goes to show that education isn't gospel, it changes depending on the location like anything else.

This doesn't make either of us "correct" really, but...

In IBT2 and IBT3 last year I was taught the opposite; a double space is required when typing, and when writing it's irrelevant, since a pen doesn't have a 'space bar'. Most people leave a reasonable gap between sentences when writing, and the reasoning behind a double-space in typing is to duplicate this for clarity when someone's reading it.

This is backed up by my mother, who learned to touch-type on a typewriter many moons ago and was taught exactly the same thing (long before computers were found in homes). Same reasoning, and even more important since typewriter characters were all fixed-width.

Riva
11-12-2003, 07:13 PM
This is a discussion forum that is currently attacking the abuse of the English language within the arena of one of our (presumably) favourite activities. Specifically, the computer game called EverQuest. This board (because it has the words 'forum' and 'discussion' attached to it, you see) implies a better grasp of English, than the one we are attempting to make fun of.

First of all, this is in a informal area, hence I don't bother ensuring proper spelling or grammar. It isn't worth the time or effort for a message board.

If you are unable to spot the irony of such a comment in the middle of a thread that is completely about the correct usage of the English language, then you are getting no more of my time. I am sure that you see some virtue in bulldogging every confrontation you have ever faced to the point of lifelessness, but meanwhile I have a company to run.

Everyone here is making some manner of joke or another, for the benefit of the other readers - except you. Cloudien made a funny and you threw back into the fray a boring display of your geo-political cluelessness. Even I am making a joke, though I doubt you are able to appreciate this since you are the butt of mine.

L8ter > : )

Elephi
11-12-2003, 09:43 PM
I hate PST with a passion, but I've seen it taken to a whole new level...


Paludalnoob shouts,'plz can someone plz cast temperance on me PLZ pst!!!

please please send tell...

I see that more and more now.

pst has become such a habit for people that I think they are forgetting what the letters stand for.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-13-2003, 01:50 AM
I thought the original double space, was referring to the "CR" function in HTML. The "& nb sp ;" formats out a double space, as in skipping a line.

The "BR" function circumvents that in most cases, but borks out on headers, font faces, and such.

When Tim Berners Lee wrote this junk, why did he do it so half heartedly? And why has it not been fixed? That's what I want to know.

About 2 spaces after a period, I have never seen any legitimate source show otherwise. And even if I do, I am still going to put 2 in there.

Not really a problem here, and who would care, but the butchering that the word "good" has gone through is insane. Some even call it a dead word, or retired. What English teachers have been teaching for the last 20 years, sheesh. People can't figure out that good is an adjective, and well is an adverb? They got everybody walking around saying 'whom' and 'whomever' for no good reason, too.

They go and admit irregardless and dove, and delete good?

And the comma right before the last conjunction in a string? I am keeping that, don't care what the new books tell ya today.

Here's why. You call up the pizza place, they tell you that they have 3 types of pizzas with 2 toppings each.

"Yes, we have pepperoni and sausage, canadian bacon and pineapple, and bacon and tomato." That's the old way.

Here it is with the New English "Yes, we have pepperoni and sausage, canadian bacon and pineapple and bacon and tomato. That's stupid.



Educated moron announcer for some celebrity golf tournament in Tahoe,,, "Well, he's playing dog gon' well." /twitch.

Aidon
11-13-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Riva
This is a discussion forum that is currently attacking the abuse of the English language within the arena of one of our (presumably) favourite activities. Specifically, the computer game called EverQuest. This board (because it has the words 'forum' and 'discussion' attached to it, you see) implies a better grasp of English, than the one we are attempting to make fun of.

Actually, neither forum nor discussion necessarily have anything to do with the written word. Thus they imply nothing of the sort you suggest.


If you are unable to spot the irony of such a comment in the middle of a thread that is completely about the correct usage of the English language, then you are getting no more of my time. I am sure that you see some virtue in bulldogging every confrontation you have ever faced to the point of lifelessness, but meanwhile I have a company to run.

/eyeroll I could care less about your mail order candle sales, or whatever company you run. It doesn't impress me in the slightest. As for irony or the lack thereof, I suggest you get to know me better prior to making comments such as you made. Especially when you're attempts at wit fell far short and were erroneous.

Everyone here is making some manner of joke or another, for the benefit of the other readers - except you. Cloudien made a funny and you threw back into the fray a boring display of your geo-political cluelessness. Even I am making a joke, though I doubt you are able to appreciate this since you are the butt of mine.

L8ter > : )

Actually, nothing I said had much if anything to do with the geo-political situation on our planet. It was a comment on the educational, scientific, artistic, and medical situation, nor was it clueless, despite your attempts to discount it with the simple comment that it was "clueless".

You were not making a joke. You were making snide comments and suggestions at my expense. I don't know you, you are not on my personal list of people from whom I will take such with a grin and a chuckle.

Now, feel free to scurry off and run your company. I'm finished with you now.

Mildaene
11-13-2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Cloudien
So, people with Dyslexia are not worthy of your listening because they're not a 'perfect' being?

Again I'm all for a nice rant about lack of grammar in general, especially against those that are just lazy, but I see no smilies in some of these elitist posts.

It's true that when I see someone completely butcher some words, my first thought will be "he's stupid" rather than "he's dyslexic". You'll admit there must be an immense challenge playing a game where the main mean of communication is completely closed to you. Now I'm not sure about the importance of dyslexia in the EQ population, but I doubt (and may be wrong) that that many dyslexic people play (especially compared to the number of people who find it cool to spell the words differently and people who just don't want to make any effort).

Now I never mind helping or listening anyone with a problem, I'm not the cold elitist you picture, believe me :)

Tilien Venator
11-13-2003, 04:31 AM
Proper usage of the engrish language doesn't mean **** really. I majored in history and computer information science, not english. Though I do speak and spell engrish pretty well. ;)

I'm a horrible speller and a very fast typer, so Rahn gets to correct me ALL the time. I personally hate who ever make their, there and they're so close together. May he burn in hell and have to listen to Hitlers Poetry for eternity!

Great, you know all the grammatical rules and proper spells for all 615,000 words in the English Language. *golf clap* Everyone is great at something. Can you name every country in africa, europe-asia, N/S america and their capitals? How about list the starting line ups for the New York Mets from 1954 - 1959 and then argue which line up had the best records from memory? Are you able to do Cubic Equations in your head? Well, I can't either, but I've know friends who can do one or more of these.

I KNOW history, while I personally hate how stupid most people are about even basic historical facts they should have learned in high school, I don't go out of my way to correct them if they are close.

You all have a skill, great, but one of the niffty things about english is how it is always changing. We invent new words and change the meanings of old words all the time. Dictionaries don't aways catch every new word, some go out of use too soon, but no matter what, we are winning! As the world gets smaller, english will continue to grow and expand. ALOT of people are being exposed to english for the 1st real time on the internet. (I don't count alot of what schools in any country teach as really learning a language. I've studied German and french in HS/college. I learned more in the few months I spent in germany in the army then I did in 3-4 years of school. In college I got to know a number of foreign students and from what they told me, their learning of english in school wasn't much better.)

English has ALOT of stupid rules and spellings that make NO sense. Engrish on the other hand :) likes to cut through the BS and spell things like they sound and avoid typing more then really necessary.

Hell, necessary is a perfect example of a stupid spelling. Pronunciation: 'ne-s&-"ser-E. Why the hell don't we spell it nesesere?

Well, starting to ramble now.

p.s. I h8 u all. Keke silly babo? :boohoo:
p.s.s I will admit to hating PST too. I usually ask them in /ooc, /auc etc what if I'm in EST or something? Can I buy it too? Usually that will start others heckling them and I can go away happy!

Tudamorf
11-13-2003, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Tilien Venator
Great, you know all the grammatical rules and proper spells for all 615,000 words in the English Language. *golf clap* Everyone is great at something. Can you name every country in africa, europe-asia, N/S america and their capitals? How about list the starting line ups for the New York Mets from 1954 - 1959 and then argue which line up had the best records from memory? Are you able to do Cubic Equations in your head?
I'll bet most American students can't do any of the above, in addition to not knowing how to properly read and write in their native language. What is your point exactly? A basic command of your native written language shouldn't be an <i>optional</i> skill like quantum physics!

Greggo
11-13-2003, 07:54 AM
Actually given the numbers of discussions that occur in /ooc and /shout maybe people DO need to be reminded to send tells.

Riva
11-13-2003, 08:57 AM
Ouch man, ouch...

Especially when you're attempts at wit fell far short and were erroneous

My apologies. I just can't help it, it's just too easy. Why don't you tell us again the one about your great education?

B_Delacroix
11-13-2003, 10:02 AM
Can we relagate this to the Unkempt druids as this has just become either a personal battle between Aidon and Riva or just America bashing?

Chenier
11-13-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Tilien Venator
I'm going to add a new line to my NI hotkey.

/tell Scirocco It's l00t5!
yesh! excellent idea! Kids, be sure to add this to your heal macro!

Panamah
11-13-2003, 12:24 PM
Oh loot me!

Molilya
11-13-2003, 03:07 PM
A few things that boggled me mostly the first time i saw them.

Like lol for instance. Lol in dutch means fun. Then the first time you see it being used as "laughing out loud" you're just lookin at your screen like hmm...

Also BTW. BTW means Belasting toegevoegde waarde (tax) in dutch. First time you read that and not knowing its "by the way" you just don't get it =p

And about words that are a pain to type. How about Though, through, throughough. i keep mixing those up. Also when i type which i allways type witch the first time. Pretty damn anoying.

Kineada
11-13-2003, 04:34 PM
One thing that has always puzzled me was la~

Is that something in the order of "lalala, I don't care!" or "later" or "laugh"?

It's usually used as a one word line ...

la~

So I can't infer anything from the meaning. And from previous text, could mean anything from *shrug* to *pfft*. Most people seem to use it as a placeholder type thing.

Anyways, if anyone knows the true meaning of la~, I would appreciate enlightenment.

Cloudien
11-13-2003, 05:00 PM
Yeah, that's another one!

I've generally only seen it here, in the form of 'can i have sow plz kk thx la~' used to convey a the typing of a BuffMeGiveMeLewtz style player :)

Artemisian
11-13-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Diggins
The other is the 'werd up homey G' talk by pasty white pencil-neck geeks trying to come off as being some sort of badass gangsta thug from the hood.

I seriously doubt a "badass gangsta thug from the hood" would be playing Everquest anyway. The good thing about people writing in a strange colloquial style is that you know who *not* to group with.

You see, "thug-speak" = pre-teen or teenaged boy who will drive me insane with his wanting to be "uber" and telling me how to play my character. Yeah, been there, done that.

:D

Edited:

Here's my pet peeve: "gay" as in, "That's so gay."
What? It's happy? It's homosexual? What does that mean? I can't decide if I should be offended or not. Also, regarding my previous argument about teenaged boys.....that's one of the first tip-offs. The use of the word "gay."

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-13-2003, 08:34 PM
"But when it comes to basic education, the United States falls way behind in the world."



Many of the countries which have superior education systems, also choose the tracks which students follow during their educational career.

What I mean is, if a person has no aptitude for upper division, they are routed to menial professions.

The person really has no choice for "going to college" like we do in the US.

Most US citizens would burn down the schools before they would let that happen. If I say as a parent, Johnny or Joanie is going to college, then that is the way they will track. Not some bureaucrat who thinks that they will be better off changing sparkplugs for the rest of their lives.

So before anyone starts the US schools suck compared to the rest of the world, (which they do), remember how most of the countries who you are comparing against actually 'educate' their people.

Here in California, we spend over $150K to educate a classroom of students(K-12). Even the longer of tenured of teachers gets only 50K a year. That leaves 100K, on a good day, unaccounted for.

That is the question we should be asking.

Nimchip
11-13-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Artemisian
I seriously doubt a "badass gangsta thug from the hood" would be playing Everquest anyway. The good thing about people writing in a strange colloquial style is that you know who *not* to group with.

You see, "thug-speak" = pre-teen or teenaged boy who will drive me insane with his wanting to be "uber" and telling me how to play my character. Yeah, been there, done that.

:D

Edited:

Here's my pet peeve: "gay" as in, "That's so gay."
What? It's happy? It's homosexual? What does that mean? I can't decide if I should be offended or not. Also, regarding my previous argument about teenaged boys.....that's one of the first tip-offs. The use of the word "gay."

I've found that this is true in most of the cases BUT not all of them. Let's not discriminate, some people can actually play good and type horribly...

Panamah
11-13-2003, 10:55 PM
Gamers are piercing the mother tongue!

http://nmcs.com/images/mothertongue.jpg

Artemisian
11-14-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Nimchip
I've found that this is true in most of the cases BUT not all of them. Let's not discriminate, some people can actually play good and type horribly...

I never said they couldn't play well. I just don't like to group with them. In my experience, people who use those sort of terms tend to be rude players. I've learned my lesson in that area. I'm not talking about people who don't have perfect grammar. I'm talking about a very particular style of writing. I've learned to discriminate in that sense just to save myself a hard time.

Chenier
11-14-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Panamah
Gamers are piercing the mother tongue!

http://nmcs.com/images/mothertongue.jpg
mother of god....she's a snow tire...

how does she go through airport security?

Diggins
11-14-2003, 10:54 AM
Wow, are there any pictures of her piercings in, umm, more interesting areas?

Grygonos Thunderwulf
11-14-2003, 11:19 AM
some japanese players on rallos would say

me no abc la

meaning .. i don't speak english... that was the first time I had heard that.

Scirocco
11-14-2003, 11:26 AM
I'm going to add a new line to my NI hotkey.

/tell Scirocco It's l00t5!


I'll reserve space on my IGNORE list for you...:)

Scirocco
11-14-2003, 11:29 AM
how does she go through airport security?


Funny you should mention that, in light of Christina Aquilera getting stopped recently. One guess as to what part of her anatomy made the metal detectors go nuts....:)

Cloudien
11-14-2003, 12:47 PM
Dammit, I was just about to have dinner :lol

princess0fdiabl0
11-14-2003, 02:34 PM
in regards to the use of "gay", i think generally it is not refered to in the homosexual manner, but more in a flambouyant "fruity" attitude, more related to steretypical homosexual activity. I must admit that I am guilty of throwing around the word gay in an unproper manner, however meaning no real insults.

For example;

"The RNG is so gay, i'll never get winters frost!"

okay thats not the best example, but sadly it is quite common here in american among my age group (senior in highschool). I really dont see it as a problem myself because the actual homosexuals (and i know a couple) do not seem to take any real offense to this, because they know its not a derogative pertaining to their lifestyle.

Also regarding the US school system... well here in california, its pretty sad. Ive been lucky enough to be admitted into a charter school that just started up, and is filled with more knowledged students, however before I came to this highschool, there were still students having trouble to read in the 8th grade, which i find immensly problematic, seeing as it is far from a small minority.

Panamah
11-14-2003, 03:39 PM
I'm not a fan of how gay is used to refer to something people don't like. Seems pretty homophobic to me.

Scirocco
11-14-2003, 03:39 PM
in regards to the use of "gay", i think generally it is not refered to in the homosexual manner, but more in a flambouyant "fruity" attitude, more related to steretypical homosexual activity. I must admit that I am guilty of throwing around the word gay in an unproper manner, however meaning no real insults.


Well, that's mighty white of you....





Those of you old enough to recognize that the above statement is derogatory and racist, I hope, get my point.

For those who don't recognize it, the word "white" refers to Caucasians ("white people"), and was used in the U.S. not too long ago to compliment someone for being generous, good, nice, etc. It derives its meaning from the stereotype that people with black skin are shiftless, lazy, untrustworthy, apt to steal, etc.

I'm sure that some folks 40 and 50 years ago meant "no real insult" to blacks by this use of the term "white." After all, they were only complimenting someone, right? Hardly.

The current use of the word "gay" is similarly derogatory. It derives its meaning ONLY THROUGH its relationship to a certain minority. In this case, instead of skin color, it's based on sexual preference.

And yes, every time I hear this phrase used now, my mental image of the speaker is the same as Artemisian's above.

Cloudien
11-14-2003, 04:11 PM
Never thought of it like that. Is that the original reasoning behind "white magic" and "black magic" naming? Wouldn't surprise me.

There's still a make of bread sold here called "Mighty White" (marketed towards kids mainly IIRC), bet they hadn't thought of it like that either.

Jaedric
11-14-2003, 04:43 PM
It's "definitely", not "definately"! :mad:

Panamah
11-14-2003, 04:51 PM
Want to read up on english language errors?

This is like filling a teacup with a fire hose: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors

Aldarion_Shard
11-14-2003, 05:06 PM
yeah, dontcha hate it when people describe something as Lame or Retarded? I mean clearly these terms are meant to offend the ambulatorily challenged and the mentally handicapped. Words never change their meaning through time, after all.

By the way, I'm not quite sure what the fuss over "Gay" is, after all this word only means "Happy". Words never change their meanings, and never have more than one meaning, right?

:p

Panamah
11-14-2003, 05:17 PM
>yeah, dontcha hate it when people describe something as Lame or Retarded?

Yeah, actually I don't like that either.

If I were to describe something I didn't like as being druid, I bet a few of you all would get your feathers ruffled.... err... fur.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-14-2003, 06:09 PM
Bookmarked that page Pan.

Thanks.

They don't have forte on there.

And they should add homophobic to it as well.

But I will forgive the omissions.


/bow

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-14-2003, 06:16 PM
"It derives its meaning ONLY THROUGH its relationship to a certain minority."

One of the few minorities which has been given the power to 'own' words, at the expense of the rest.

If they give the Q word back, they can keep the G word.

The Q word really is what these people are wanting to use anyways.

Scirocco
11-14-2003, 07:25 PM
LOL...no one group or minority has the power (whether taken or given) to "own" a word, any more than any other group. Both "queer" and "gay" retain their original meanings as well as their new references.

Regardless, we aren't talking about a new meaning for the word "gay" here. Used by teenage boys as described above, it derives its meaning because of the supposed despised characteristics of the hated minority group. It is because the word in question is associated with that minority group that the word has its derogatory meaning to the users.

The user can't claim that "don't be gay" doesn't mean "don't act like a person with homosexual orientation."

Riva
11-14-2003, 08:57 PM
One thing that has always puzzled me was la~

'la' is complete meaningless word habitually appended toward the end of a sentence in Oriental cultures, especially the Chinese. I don’t think it’s inherent to the Japanese though, they are more likely to say ‘ne’. It isn’t any different from the way Canadians append ‘eh’, or how an inner city American kid is likely to slap a ‘yo’ at the end of saying something completely mundane. That is to say, “I prefer the red, yo” works just the same as “I prefer the red, la”.

‘ABC’ is actually an acronym for ‘American Born Chinese’.

Additionally, I'd like to toss in my agreement with the above posters. I think less of a person if they use words which tie strongly into the identity of a heavily discriminated-against group of people. I have personally been told to 'not be such a nigger' (by a claiming-a-camp-from-the-zone-in-with-no-group Dr00d, no less) and that caused me some irritation.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-14-2003, 09:35 PM
"The user can't claim that "don't be gay" doesn't mean "don't act like a person with homosexual orientation.""

Maybe, maybe not.

Take the word suck, for instance, as in 'dr00ds suck', 'bards suck', or 'helmet laws suck'. Everyone uses it, right?, even here as a title to a thread. Heard the President say it, even.

But I remember when it was an anti-homosexual epithet. And a relatively strong one too, stronger than the Q word OR the G word.

Now it is an accepted part of our vernacular.

It changed meanings.

And that goes for 'that blows' or 'this bites'; as well.

For all three have their same origin as 'same-gender fellatio'. But they are accepted. Why is that?

When you use the words 'sucks', 'blows', or 'bites',
can you claim YOU are not talking about "a person with homosexual orientation"?

Aldarion_Shard
11-14-2003, 09:51 PM
The user can't claim that "don't be gay" doesn't mean "don't act like a person with homosexual orientation."

You'll agree, then, that the use of the words Lame and Retarded is a direct insult directed at the handicapped then?

Since words only have one meaning... :evilgrin:

Panamah
11-14-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Fyyr Lu'Storm
"The user can't claim that "don't be gay" doesn't mean "don't act like a person with homosexual orientation.""

Maybe, maybe not.

Take the word suck, for instance, as in 'dr00ds suck', 'bards suck', or 'helmet laws suck'. Everyone uses it, right?, even here as a title to a thread. Heard the President say it, even.

But I remember when it was an anti-homosexual epithet. And a relatively strong one too, stronger than the Q word OR the G word.

Now it is an accepted part of our vernacular.

It changed meanings.

And that goes for 'that blows' or 'this bites'; as well.

For all three have their same origin as 'same-gender fellatio'. But they are accepted. Why is that?

When you use the words 'sucks', 'blows', or 'bites',
can you claim YOU are not talking about "a person with homosexual orientation"?

I never heard of suck associated with homosexuals, nor blow nor bite. In my mind it was once associated wtih fellatio, but didn't have any specific genders attached to it. Perhaps I missed out on that one, I'll have to ask my San Francisco friends next time I see them.

Homosexuals use queer and gay to describe themselves. They coopted queer taking a negative label and wearing it proudly.

But despite some people using "gay" in a negative sense to mean something bad they don't like, I think most people associate "gay" with homosexuals. So 'gay' might have changed meaning in a few people's minds, but there's a lot of us out there that still associate the term with homosexuals.

Deller
11-15-2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Mildaene
Well I don't think it is. You can usually see how mature and smart one is, by how they spell words, construct sentences, and generally seem to understand what they say."


You have to be kidding! I am an educated, well-paid professional. A major portion of my work is writing. Professionals whose only goal is to find any possible error will scrutinize many of the documents I produce. At work I spend a great deal of time insuring my work is technically correct.

At play I couldn’t care less. What in the world difference does it make to me what you, or anyone, thinks of my typing - while I am playing a game or chatting for enjoyment?

To denigrate a person for not spending their recreational time insuring their sentence construction is up to par, sounds to me a lot like elitism.

Henceforth, if my or another person's miss spellings and grammatical faux pas make you wonder if we are slobbering idiots, you have my permission to assume we are doing it to annoy you.

Deller

Tudamorf
11-17-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Aldarion_Shard
You'll agree, then, that the use of the words Lame and Retarded is a direct insult directed at the handicapped then?

It's not the same thing at all. As an insult, "retarded" is used to convey that the person is mentally deficient. As for "lame", its dictionary meaning is "weak" or "ineffectual", and can be used to describe either an ineffectual body part (in the case of the handicapped) or anything else (e.g., a lame excuse). In both cases, you're using the word for its intended meaning.

However, using "gay" to mean "bad" is a precise mirror of Scirocco's example of using "white" to mean good. There's an extra analogy where you implicitly state that group X is bad, and because I'm comparing this to group X, it must be bad too.

As a side note, the word "ghey" has cropped up recently to temper the bigoted use of "gay". A compromise position.

Scirocco
11-18-2003, 10:23 AM
I thought "ghey" was just a "l33tspeak" variant, used in the mistaken belief that it somehow conveyed "coolness" upon the speaker (well, typer). I don't think it was meant to temper bigotry, but in fact was meant to show that the person using it was a "l33t l3i50t."

Which is mighty whyte of them, you must admit....












(P.S. For the sarcasm impaired, rest easy. My last statement is positively dripping with sarcasm....:)

Aidon
11-18-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Scirocco
in regards to the use of "gay", i think generally it is not refered to in the homosexual manner, but more in a flambouyant "fruity" attitude, more related to steretypical homosexual activity. I must admit that I am guilty of throwing around the word gay in an unproper manner, however meaning no real insults.


Well, that's mighty white of you....





Those of you old enough to recognize that the above statement is derogatory and racist, I hope, get my point.

For those who don't recognize it, the word "white" refers to Caucasians ("white people"), and was used in the U.S. not too long ago to compliment someone for being generous, good, nice, etc. It derives its meaning from the stereotype that people with black skin are shiftless, lazy, untrustworthy, apt to steal, etc.

I'm sure that some folks 40 and 50 years ago meant "no real insult" to blacks by this use of the term "white." After all, they were only complimenting someone, right? Hardly.

The current use of the word "gay" is similarly derogatory. It derives its meaning ONLY THROUGH its relationship to a certain minority. In this case, instead of skin color, it's based on sexual preference.

And yes, every time I hear this phrase used now, my mental image of the speaker is the same as Artemisian's above.

Actually, my understanding is the term "Mighty white of you" was actually more of a British term from its colonial heyday. Same essential premise, though the contrasting race differed depending on which part of the empire you were in.

As for gay...I'm of two minds on that one. While personally, I haven't yet found a use for the word in my functional vocabulary, the word has had such varied meaning over the years, far predating the time when certain members of the homosexual community co-opted the word, that I find it difficult to fault a new colloquial meaning of "stupid" or "asinine". The fact remains that gay wasn't a derogatory term arbitrarily given to homosexuals. Its meanings over the years have drifted from "happy" or "jubilant", to indicating a man who liked to drink and carouse to excess, to being used to denote promiscuity, to being adopted by the gay community as their own title, to being used in place of something which didn't go well, was asinine, or just plain stupid.

Then again...I don't use the word, I strive not to use any phrase which could construed as bigoted (for the most part, certain cultural disdains and hatreds still run strong in my blood).

Aidon
11-18-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Cloudien
Never thought of it like that. Is that the original reasoning behind "white magic" and "black magic" naming? Wouldn't surprise me.

There's still a make of bread sold here called "Mighty White" (marketed towards kids mainly IIRC), bet they hadn't thought of it like that either.

White and black had symbology of "good" and "evil" in western civilization long predating racism based on coloration.

Aldarion_Shard
11-18-2003, 12:31 PM
It's not the same thing at all. As an insult, "retarded" is used to convey that the person is mentally deficient. As for "lame", its dictionary meaning is "weak" or "ineffectual", and can be used to describe either an ineffectual body part (in the case of the handicapped) or anything else (e.g., a lame excuse). In both cases, you're using the word for its intended meaning.

However, using "gay" to mean "bad" is a precise mirror of Scirocco's example of using "white" to mean good. There's an extra analogy where you implicitly state that group X is bad, and because I'm comparing this to group X, it must be bad too.

Tuda, you *are* aware that both of these words (retarded and lame) are considered insulting by the members of their respective communities, right? (It is considered more sensitive to use the terms mentally handicapped and ambulatorily challenged, respectively).

The use of these words, in any context, is akin to calling a black kitten a N***er. "What? Its black, after all! I'm using the word in its approriate context!"

Aside from which, when a person refers to their opponent in an internet debate as a "retard" they dont actually mean "You have a trisomy in chromosome 21".. they mean "You're stupid". Which is quite another meaning entirely. Likewise, when someone refers to the PWoE ring as "lame" they dont mean that this ring event has to use a cane when it walks. They mean its stupid and not fun. Again, an entirely different meaning for a word which is offensive to some.

(The analogy to the word "gay" is quite simple here. When someone describes the new targetting ring as "gay" they dont mean that this targetting ring has sex with otehr targetting rings of the same gender, and you @#$% well know it. They mean its silly, unnecessary, and not aesthetically appealing).

Its pretty simple - lame and retarded are directly analagous to gay. Either accept that words have more than one meaning, and these meanings change with time, or cease the use of the words reatred and lame as well.

Firemynd
11-18-2003, 01:26 PM
(The analogy to the word "gay" is quite simple here. When someone describes the new targetting ring as "gay" they dont mean that this targetting ring has sex with otehr targetting rings of the same gender, and you @#$% well know it. They mean its silly, unnecessary, and not aesthetically appealing).

You'd have a point, *if* being gay was defined only as having sex with someone of the same gender, but "gay" in this context is not a verb; rather, it is an adjective used to describe a sexual orientation. When you use the word "gay" to describe something, manner of usage is the same (adjective). If the object of that description is obviously negative, the implication is therefore: "(this thing) is as bad as being (homosexual)."

I agree that words can change in meaning over time. However, it seems silly to try justifying a particularly derogatory application of a word by claiming that you're assuming its past or future meaning(s). For instance, you know no one would assume you meant to say the object being described was "happy" or "festive."

As for the other pet peeves expressed in this thread ... what bugs me the most is unnecessary abbreviations like "u" and "ne1". In my opinion, these reflect pure laziness, not an absence of typing skill.

If people would just type the full word every time, they'd soon discover that you takes practically the same amount of time to type as u. Commonly used words, regardless of length, are typed by rote rather than by their individual letters. Of course this also explains why our fingers occasionally substitute "there" for "their" even when our heads know better. ;)

[edited: had to correct a typo becaus it would be a real shame if sumone thought I didn't know how to spel a werd. /smirk ]

~Firemynd

Scirocco
11-18-2003, 02:06 PM
;)

Firemynd
11-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Scirocco, we only like you because you're evil.

~Firemynd

Aldarion_Shard
11-18-2003, 05:17 PM
Firemynd, I fail to see how the type of word used (adjective vs. verb) has anything to do with my logic. However, in case it matters, I was using it as an adjective too: the condition describing one who has sex with those of their own gender.

Of course that doesnt really matter though. What matters is the fact that the words "gay" and "retarded" are being held to completely different standards that are utterly inconsistent.

Cloudien
11-18-2003, 05:55 PM
If only we spoke a language where every word has *one* meaning, and not several!

Even a phrase like "I'm coming over a little queer" can have different meanings. I'm sure anyone can figure out the two... or three.

Maybe the moral of all this is not to assume any meaning behind a word until you see/hear it in context. That might include other words in the sentence/discussion, the environment and happenings around whoever said it, emotions, body language etc.

In online communication, it's even more difficult to tell what that context is; hence we have 'smileys' or 'emoticons.' They might've started out as an ASCII gimmick, but have actually turned out to be a useful tool for conveying the intention or meaning of a sentence/comment than people tend to realise.

It's not foolproof though. My smiley was missed earlier in the thread, forcing a 'joke jab' to be misinterpreted as a serious disrespect to an entire nation - an unfortunate problem!

Firemynd
11-18-2003, 06:14 PM
The word "retarded" does not have any 'non-negative' iterations. As insensitive as it may be to describe someone with mental challenges as retarded, at least it isn't making a negative connotation out of a word used by members of a community to identify themselves in a non-negative way.

When people says "so dumb!" that is generally accepted as slang meaning something they think lacks sense (or lacks 'a sense'), but still not targeting an individual or community in a negative way. On the other hand, if people went around saying "so Aldarion!" whenever they were referring to something they obviously disliked, that would be a derogatory slur of a word currently used to identify an individual. People who like the person they associate with that name, might take offense at such negative usage.

If you can't see the difference, I'm not sure anyone will be able to explain it in terms you'll understand. /shrug

~Firemynd

guluvasea
11-18-2003, 06:32 PM
never considered myself as being very well read in the matter of communications but as far as I am concerned, communications between individuals: written, spoken, tattooed, or by smoke signals is purely a matter of perception.

way back when I was in 8th grade, my sociology teacher tried to teach us something about communications and just how poorly us hruumans perceived the spoken/written thoughts of another. He took 2 of us out in the hallway and had 1 of us read a paragraph to the other. Then that person had to relate what he had been told to another....etc etc. We only did this with 5 people and had the 5th person relate to the class what he was told. Then the paragraph was read out loud. pretty lame...oh there is that word.

Anyhow, none of us are clones, none of us are completely alike, we have all grown up in different environments. What one word, one phrase, one expressed thought can mean to one person; that same word, phrase, or thought will have a meaning that is different to another...no matter how hard you try.

perception..

dekkon

Jinjre
11-18-2003, 07:45 PM
if people went around saying "so Aldarion!"

If someone was to do that, their name would be Mudd!

snrk!

Aldarion_Shard
11-18-2003, 08:01 PM
Firemynd,

thats an interesting point - the fact that the word gay is used by a certain "culture" (sic) to describe themselves in a non-negative way, while the same cannot be said of the word "retarded". You have a point.

However, it must be pointed out that this particular word was intentionally co-opted by said "culture". The meaning was intentionally changed in order to give their "lifestyle" positive connotations previously reserved for the former meaning (happy and lighthearted).

The fact that people come out in this massive outpouring of support for these "poor, persecuted people who are being so insulted by this term" only shows that theyve succeeded in deliberately changing the meaning of a word and forcing society to accomodate them. Meanwhile, no such sympathy exists for the ambulatorily challenged or the mentally handicapped, apparently. Homosexuality has been deified to a truly amazing extent.. to the point that the word they intentionally changed the meaning of now evokes stronger emotions in the average person than words used to describe people who actually do face hardships in life.

It is surprising that people dont object to being manipulated to this extent. Does no one examine their motivations anymore?

Panamah
11-19-2003, 12:34 AM
However, it must be pointed out that this particular word was intentionally co-opted by said "culture". The meaning was intentionally changed in order to give their "lifestyle" positive connotations previously reserved for the former meaning (happy and lighthearted).

I don't see how that makes a bit of difference to what Firemynd was saying. Used to be blacks called themselves colored people, or negros too, but they changed words. Big deal.

You're trying to use the fact they call themselves a word to justify why it's ok to then take that word and apply it to something negative. That just doesn't wash. If you started saying "That's so [black, jew, druid, white, asian, catholic, whatever]" to mean something negative, you're going to offend the group that associates with that label, no matter how or why they acquired that label.

I think your dislike of homosexuals is the basis of your argument, not whether or not it's insulting to coopt a word a group uses to describe themselves and use it to mean something negative.

Jinjre
11-19-2003, 10:03 AM
Homosexuality has been deified to a truly amazing extent

Boy, my gay friends will be happy when they hear this! Of course, they're still waiting for their copies of the Homosexual Agenda everyone keeps talking about. I bet they never thought they'd be dieties!

Firemynd
11-19-2003, 01:44 PM
However, it must be pointed out that this particular word was intentionally co-opted by said "culture".

From what I understand, the gay community didn't exactly scour the dictionary looking for just the right word to call its own. ;)

Reference to same-gender partnering, not necessarily sexual, was adapted from 'geycat' (a young hobo who acted as a lookout for an older one) and writers began using "gay" as early as 1890 to obfuscate their intended meaning and avoid censorship.

As with other labels used to single them out (usually in a negative way, e.g. homosexuals thrown into Nazi concentration camps and forced to wear 'pink triangles' to distinguish them from other types of prisoners) ... over time, the gay community apparently adopted the most common non-sexual descriptor given them by straight press. I suppose anything was more appropriate than the term "homosexual," acknowledging that one's sexual orientation cannot be defined strictly by sexual activity -- one can certainly classify his or her own orientation long before actually having sexual contact with another person.

More of a mystery is the origin of referencing heterosexuals as "straights".. but the inference that anything 'not straight' is 'crooked', would be a whole other can of worms... :D

~Firemynd

Scirocco
11-19-2003, 04:42 PM
I heard an interesting comment about gay marriage this morning on the radio, which is relevant in light of the Mass. Supreme Court decision yesterday.

She laughed at the "sanctity of marriage" argument, specifically pointing to Carmen Electra and Dennis Rodman. She also pointed out how a couple could get married underwater, or by an Elvis impersonator in Vegas, and have a reception in a graveyard.

It was her opinion that a gay couple should have just as much of a right as a straight couple to get married by an Elvis impersonator....:)

Aidon
11-19-2003, 10:25 PM
I have to agree. There is no reason why a same sex marriage should not be held to be legally equivilant to a normal marriage.

The one possible exception, in my mind, is when it comes time for children. A child needs a mother and a father.

I feel the same way about parents who get a divorce when they have children.

What you want to do with your partner is entirely up to you and your partner, but when you bring a child as a third party into the equation...you give up a good deal of your personal freedoms.

Panamah
11-20-2003, 12:54 AM
The one possible exception, in my mind, is when it comes time for children. A child needs a mother and a father.

I actually disagree with this. A child needs adults who love it and look out for it's welfare. They don't need to be of any particular gender. I've talked to kids that had gay parents, who are straight btw, and they said their family lives were just fine.

I'd much, much rather have two mommies or two daddies than to have a mommy and daddy that are constantly warring with one another.

Sobe Silvertree
11-20-2003, 01:24 AM
Pawned -

Moved to OT Section-

This is my judgment call – The forum of Unkempt "Druids" doesn’t specifically state that the forum was meant for anything other then the discussion on EQ itself but this is the intent of the Unkempt "Druids" Section (a place to vent about EQ itself).

Though I see most are being professional about this subject; This threads intentions originally seemed to justify it being left in the Unkempt Druids Section; but as for now its being pushed out to Other Topics Section(with a moved link) instead of the trash can for which I do not feel it necessary at this time.

Keep it professional - but if I get one complaint in email that supports it being trashed then I will remove the post.

Now you can say that’s "Nazi Moderation"

- There's a term you can play with :)

Edited for better explanation

Aidon
11-20-2003, 03:53 AM
We have managed to get rather far afield from the original post...

Aidon
11-20-2003, 04:30 AM
Going back a discussion in this thread.

I want to know why certain groups feel its ok for them to coop a word they find derogatory towards them, start using it amongst themselves, and yet still claim its offensive if anyone else uses it?

Blacks using the word Nigger. Homosexuals using Gay and Queer.

If a word is offensive, its offensive.

I've never seen a Hispanic go up to another Hispanic and say, "What's up my Spic?!"

You'll never see a show about five Jews called "Kike Eye for the Goy Guy"

If a word is to be deemed offensive...don't bloody use it, then such ambivilance towards using the word won't exist.

Cloudien
11-20-2003, 12:38 PM
*Shrug* dunno, you see that a lot - I call myself a moron quite often, but if someone else called me a moron I'd probably find it offensive and tell them where to get off :)

Panamah
11-20-2003, 01:52 PM
Going back a discussion in this thread.

I want to know why certain groups feel its ok for them to coop a word they find derogatory towards them, start using it amongst themselves, and yet still claim its offensive if anyone else uses it?

Blacks using the word Nigger. Homosexuals using Gay and Queer.


Gays don't care if you call them gay or queer.

I agree with that though, you shouldn't call one another names you wouldn't want someone else calling you. However, I do have a very dear friend that calls me "hag" sometimes and it cracks me up. However if someone I didn't know did I'd be very offended.

The difference is in the context. My friend cares about me and likes me and I'm confident of that fact. A perfect stranger calling me a "hag" is probably not doing so to tease me affectionately.

Scirocco
11-20-2003, 05:19 PM
I want to know why certain groups feel its ok for them to coop a word they find derogatory towards them, start using it amongst themselves, and yet still claim its offensive if anyone else uses it?


This argument doesn't apply to the use of "gay."

Most, if not all, of my gay friends use the term freely to describe themselves, and don't object to the term being used to describe them by others.

The issue is when some teenaged boys start using the word "gay" in a derogatory fashion to mean "strange," "wierd," "stupid," "perverted," etc. And the only reason it has that derogatory meaning is precisely because it has previously been used for decades to refer to homosexuals.

"Don't be gay" translates into "Don't be like a homosexual, i.e., strange, wierd, etc."

Does this really escape you?

Aldarion_Shard
11-20-2003, 05:27 PM
Just wanted to clarify something here.

Since according to the PC folks, all people who use the word gay in its new meaning (aka silly, lame, unappealing) are "pimple faced teenaged boys"...

Is it ok with you if I assume all people who get their little panties in a wad over the new meaning of the word are Cross-Dressing Irrational Vegan Bull-Dykes?

I'm just checking,m because unfounded stereotyping sounds like a lot of fun, and I want to play too.

Scirocco
11-20-2003, 09:23 PM
OK, I'll just start referring to them as "bigots." :)

Honestly, I have never heard any female use the term in the manner discuused. And I've never heard any male near my age range use it, either. The only ones I've ever heard (or seen) use it I know to be young males in their teens and young 20-somethings (in other words, only a few years removed from being pimply-faced teenage boys...at my age, there's little difference...;)

Tudamorf
11-20-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Aidon
I want to know why certain groups feel its ok for them to coop a word they find derogatory towards them, start using it amongst themselves, and yet still claim its offensive if anyone else uses it?
Homosexuals using Gay and Queer.
Since when is "gay" derogatory? That's pretty much both of the official and colloquial term around here.

Aidon
11-21-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Scirocco
I want to know why certain groups feel its ok for them to coop a word they find derogatory towards them, start using it amongst themselves, and yet still claim its offensive if anyone else uses it?


This argument doesn't apply to the use of "gay."

Most, if not all, of my gay friends use the term freely to describe themselves, and don't object to the term being used to describe them by others.

The issue is when some teenaged boys start using the word "gay" in a derogatory fashion to mean "strange," "wierd," "stupid," "perverted," etc. And the only reason it has that derogatory meaning is precisely because it has previously been used for decades to refer to homosexuals.

"Don't be gay" translates into "Don't be like a homosexual, i.e., strange, wierd, etc."

Does this really escape you?

No, it doesn't.

I was more referring to the term "Queer". My understanding is that calling a homosexual a "Queer" is about on par as calling a Black a "Nigger" or calling a Hispanic a "Spic". Yet, I see the term bandied about amongst homosexuals with growing frequency.

Its simply something I don't understand.

Firemynd
11-21-2003, 10:13 AM
I was more referring to the term "Queer". My understanding is that calling a homosexual a "Queer" is about on par as calling a Black a "Nigger" or calling a Hispanic a "Spic". Yet, I see the term bandied about amongst homosexuals with growing frequency.

I understand the concept of a minority community taking the sting out of a negative word by polarizing its usage. The more frequently a word is presented and seen in a positive way by the people it's intended to offend, the less inclined others are to use that word when they want to evoke negativity.

However, I don't see why anyone would compare those words with 'gay' .... because 'gay' has never been used negatively.

Instead of trying to compare 'gay' to words that have been used as slurs like n-gger, sp-c, or ch-nks, try to see it in the same light as other minority descriptors that aren't viewed as slurs... like asian or jewish. If EQ players suddenly started saying "oh man that's jewish!" when referring to something bad, I think you might see the point about "that's gay" a little more clearly.

But evidently, it's more socially acceptable to make gays the object of such slang -- surprisingly, more acceptable even among those in minority groups who you'd think would be a little more intolerant of slurs in any form.

~Firemynd

Palarran
11-21-2003, 06:31 PM
I've heard a few people talk about getting "jewed" out of something (meaning something along the lines of getting ripped off). I cringe anytime I hear that expression.

Sobe Silvertree
11-22-2003, 04:14 PM
Heard that before .. I do hate that term or any representation of it.

Takes 5 mins to find a good price or lowest price for most things on the Internet.

Research it!

Its your own dam fault if someone sells you a 10 dollar part/item for 200 bucks.. but then heh.... if that guy has the only one.. then he had foresight or luck!

And if you want it that bad then you will pay for it.. Supply vs Demand.. /shrugs

Scirocco
11-22-2003, 07:29 PM
If EQ players suddenly started saying "oh man that's jewish!" when referring to something bad, I think you might see the point about "that's gay" a little more clearly.


Some do, or perhaps you missed my earlier posts about that. For example, in /ooc about 6 months back I heard a necro say, "Hey, who jewed all the frogs?!" I'm sure you will agree that is the use of the term "Jew" in a way which is bad (if you don't, you're hopeless, and I'll give up trying to discuss this topic with you...:)

You don't hear it as much because it gets stomped out pretty quickly. Perhaps because bigotry towards gays is acceptable to more people than bigotry towards Jews.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-22-2003, 09:08 PM
So, someone who uses 'gay' differently than gays is a bigot?

Firemynd
11-23-2003, 07:39 AM
So, someone who uses 'gay' differently than gays is a bigot?

No, someone who uses a word which is commonly associated with a minority group to describe 'something bad', is a bigot.

~Firemynd

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-23-2003, 03:12 PM
I had made an effort to not use that word 'minority', previously.

It has so many different meanings. (here's a few).

1) Does minority mean the opposite of majority?
The county I live in has 38 percent Latino/as. There are no other groups with that many people. Does that mean that Caucasians are a minority?

2) Less than 50%?
Hard to get a majority these days; 50+% of something, that is. So is less than 50% a criterion.

3) Do you mean something else when you use the word 'minority'? For example, women are usually lumped into the minorities group, even though there are more women than men. Is the term(both words) 'minority group', what you mean? Is 'minority' just an adjective, or is it part of the noun?

4) By your sentence, it would imply that you can use words of 'majorities' negatively. To paraphrase Scirocco, "That's mighty Christian of you". And I would not be a bigot for saying that? Or even more simply, if a gay(homosexual, minority) person refers to me(heterosexuals, majority) as a 'breeder', he would not be a bigot?

What do YOU mean when you say 'minority'.

Firemynd
11-23-2003, 11:39 PM
So, 50% of the population in your county is gay too? Must be a lovely place.

~Firemynd

Fyyr Lu'Storm
11-24-2003, 03:51 AM
The 2000 Census Bureau puts the percentage of gays and lesbians at 9% of the population(for urban areas).

Aldarion_Shard
11-26-2003, 11:48 AM
...but 3% nationwide.

Fanra
11-27-2003, 09:04 AM
US Education at work

Yes, on the fence in front of a school I pass by almost every day is:

Proud 2B Drug Free

Seems they are also proud to be proper English free as well.

And this isn't just some random student failure to know English, this message was put there by the school (although they probably forced the students to do the work).

Every few months, they change it slightly, although it always says something about how you shouldn't do drugs.

While I am in favor of schools teaching kids you don't need to do drugs, is that all that they are teaching?

No, I think they are also teaching them to rat out their parents or anyone else they see doing drugs also, but I can't confirm that.

Things like proper English, math, history or being proud to not to do violence seem to be secondary priorities.

vestix
11-29-2003, 02:25 PM
Pet grammar peeves? Oh my... using "which" and "that" interchangably, using the indicative with a condition contrary to fact, using "aggravate" to mean "annoy" rather than "worsen," and the list goes on and on...

A course, y'all ain't never heared bad talking till you listen to some of the folk I growed up with.

Vestix, 59 redneck druid of Tunare

Chroam
12-01-2003, 05:40 PM
'sup peeps,

English changes 'cause it ain't dead. If you're still using the same English you were taught in school, I hope you're under, say, 25, 'cause otherwise you're probably out of date.

Sorry.


later,
Chroam

Cloudien
12-01-2003, 07:25 PM
*cringes*

I've heard of supping beer, but how do you sup marshmallows?

Oh, and another one :)
Lose = to be unsuccessful in retaining posession of, mislay. (He's always losing his car keys)
Loose = Not fastened, restrained or contained (loose bricks)

You do not loose EXP. Nobody is a looser.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-01-2003, 07:35 PM
Cloudien,

You mean noone, right?

Cloudien
12-02-2003, 06:22 PM
Fyrr,

You mean no-one, right? :D

-------------

Interesting test from the BBC entitled, "How's your punctuation?"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3256388.stm

I got 6.

Conclusion: Pobody's Nerfect :)

Got the obvious ones, but some of them were pretty tricky!

Palarran
12-02-2003, 10:34 PM
Bah, :- has only one meaning: "if" in Prolog. :P