View Full Forums : Class Balance (weakish)...


Centain
11-13-2003, 04:46 PM
Not the normal type of rant I like, just something that has me a bit miffed as time passes. My first character was a druid. I have tried to play many other classes (most <= 12) but have always (ALWAYS) came back to the druid. My wife plays a 65 rogue we leveled up from the ground. She has tons of alts she loves. This was just to preface the statement: what in the name of karanas ever sucking godhood is sony doing to warriors?

I am not a warrior but I can see exactly what they are so upset about.

I know this board is the DRUIDS Grove, but I am just so... upset isnt the right word, jaded perhaps is, that we can virtually ignore the problems of a class that has rather serious problems.

We sometimes like to talk some good natured ribbing on the clerics (give us rez, bishes) or the shamans (animal slow please) in order to make the druids "Balanced." Compared to the crap warriors have to go through, the balance issue between druids, clerics, and shamans is non-existant.

I fully understand this is the druids grove, but can't we fully acknowledge that there is a class that NEEDS HELP - serious help - from sony and isnt getting it?

Some people say "give it time" - they have had > year to fix warriors (they havent). Now they announced that in a month they may or may not announce something that they think they will later plan to implement for warriors, one day.

I guess the entire center point of my weak rant is this: wake the heck up! Warriors have serious issue. Can't we take time enough out of talking about the next expansion, talking about aa's or spells we may or may not get, and the general chatter to formally say "We are druids, but you need to help our retarded cousins, the warriors"? There isnt often that one class can be bent over this much without breaking, but I guess those warriors are just mighty limber.

Feyaria
11-14-2003, 01:01 AM
I honestly don't think that Warriors need any upgrades anymore, their hate production has become way fast with Augments in addition to their normal procs. Their only problems are people stepping into the battle too early and healers healing too late, i.e. people that are unskilled, cannot control their agro, slack, or the like.

Fey

Palarran
11-14-2003, 02:11 AM
Maybe something like improved aggro generation ONLY against even or lower cons would be appropriate; that shouldn't throw off raid balance in most cases.

I think monks need more help than warriors at this point though.

corlathist
11-14-2003, 09:38 AM
It's funny. Balance is so so specific an issue that its a bear to tackle.

I'd still argue that druids have a major fundamental flaw in Karana's Renewal being 600 Mana, compared to CH being 400 mana.

It drives me nuts to admit on a raid fully buffed a top knotch
6k Mana Pooled Druid with FT15, is still not as good in a chain
as a 4k Mana Pooled Cleric with FT0.

I don't want to heal as well as cleric. However, I do think a POT level druid should heal better than some level 60ish luclin geared cleric.

Noliniel
11-14-2003, 11:50 AM
Ok, I don't get your rant. Warriors need class balance? In what way? How are they unbalanced ? What do warriors want?

We sometimes like to talk some good natured ribbing on the clerics (give us rez, bishes) or the shamans (animal slow please) in order to make the druids "Balanced." Compared to the crap warriors have to go through, the balance issue between druids, clerics, and shamans is non-existant.

Yea those ideas so exist but I do know many druids are against it. What's your point? What c*** warriors have to go though ? Details please !

I guess the entire center point of my weak rant is this: wake the heck up! Warriors have serious issue. Can't we take time enough out of talking about the next expansion, talking about aa's or spells we may or may not get, and the general chatter to formally say "We are druids, but you need to help our retarded cousins, the warriors"? There isnt often that one class can be bent over this much without breaking, but I guess those warriors are just mighty limber.

Hmm there isn't a rule about we can't talk about next expansions, aas we might or might not get. There isn't one about why we must talk about warriors.

If you want to make a good rant. You need more information about it. Just saying Warriors need balanced and warriors need help doesn't help. SOE ways of balancing classes are nerfing other classes. So unless you have a good argument people won't take it =p

Centain
11-14-2003, 12:25 PM
Noliniel

Of course there isnt a rule saying that people cant talk about aa's or future spells. I participate in these discussions as much as the next person. Nor was my attempted humor at (rez please) or (animal slow) supposed to be taken as me being serious, but just to poke fun at the ribbing we give and take from the other priests.

The problems with warriors are myriad and include oh so many things to list them here. Want to know why I mentioned it? Steel Warrior War Room (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=15)... all the info you could want about warriors problems are there.

I play with a set of people I have gamed with for over 2 years. When I am forced to form a pickup group, as I would hope everyone has had to do at some point, if you see a level 65war or a level 65paladin - who would you pick really?

This entire rant wasnt meant to tell the points that are wrong with warriors. It was to, hopefully, stir some tiny bit of interest that one of eq's classes are being done wrong. Look at the steel warrior forums, read parses, read about taunt tests they have done. Things arnt as some people would like to believe. Its obvious that there isnt a rule saying we had to talk about other classes - noone would suggest that - I would just mention that there is more to everquest than just druids - and one of our little retarded cousins in the game are getting it hard. =/ Take it as you will.

lofun
11-14-2003, 02:36 PM
Yet another message board riddled with " help the warrior"
enough already. So you cant hold aggro like a pally or sk.

Deal with it. work harder get some augments on your weapons or something.

Go make another class or something , tell your groupmates to not attack so fast .

All this warrior stuff is getting damn near sickening

princess0fdiabl0
11-14-2003, 02:50 PM
warrior problems short as i can:

itemization: pallys and SKs can get almost as much hp as a warrior with items alone. They use almost the exact same equipment as a warrior for most of their armor. Not to mention a knight can also use the mana on these items.
STA gap: the benefit a warrior gets from sta points is far too close to knights.
aggro: taunt i think was stated works about 60% of the time? not enough. relying completely on the range for aggro is horrible, taunt doesnt go off? damn, maybe ill get a few aggro procs..nope... @#^@&#$ RNG dead cleric.
mitigation: same as a knights

note: i dont play a warrior

imo.. warriors need a buff in mitigation and/or hps big time. Something to help with aggro would also be nice as well, i personally hate being creamed while healing a warrior that hasnt been able to build enough aggro.
hell add some to their dps as well, warriors only stack in raids where stuff goes wrong (or stuff like bert events, etc)


rogues i dont see too much of a problem with, their dps is easily the highest, altho i constantly hear panamah bitch about not being roguish enough :D :boohoo:

princess0fdiabl0
11-14-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by lofun
Yet another message board riddled with " help the warrior"
enough already. So you cant hold aggro like a pally or sk.

Deal with it. work harder get some augments on your weapons or something.

Go make another class or something , tell your groupmates to not attack so fast .

All this warrior stuff is getting damn near sickening

you realize... as much as i hate to say it, in their current form, warriors are almost useless? knights tank better in almost every way. A fully time geared paladin and warrior in full buffs will have a difference of what, 500 hp, max? There is NO reason to use a warrior over a knight in an exp group, none at all! the only reason i take warriors any more is because i feel sorry for the class, ill admit it. Are you that goddamn blind?

thats like if druids got a real CH (400 mana, 7500 hp) and all the other cleric spells (quick heals, HoTs, rez). Druids could then mainheal, and dps, etc, a cleric would be USELESS. This is honestly the equivilent to that.

"go make another class"
oblivious, you are completely oblivious

Panamah
11-14-2003, 03:51 PM
I think warriors are horribly broken. Mobhunter had a really good article about warriors: http://www.mobhunter.com/article.jsp?articleid=1637919242

If you play with low-mid end warriors I think you'll see the problem as you have to run to fetch your ping-pong paddles because they just cannot get/keep aggro in groups on short fights. It's extremely annoying to me because I depend on a tank being able to grab aggro. A group sucks when half the group is running after a mob trying to damage it.

And now that a paladin has tanked everything there is to tank in the Plane of Time... why bother to have a warrior? 30 seconds of avoiding taking some damage really isn't that important, what is important to the game is grabbing aggro. And that's especially true in groups.

So what does a warrior bring to the group over a paladin or SK, even a ranger or a beastlord. Nothing much that I can see and some big disadvantages.

What about monks? Again, from a group perspective I don't think they've got a lot to offer. They can't tank because they have no taunt button. They're definitely second class on damage. You don't need them to pull. They're just second-class melee damage without any utility any longer. I'd rather have a ranger along than a monk. Probably similar DPS and a ton more utility.

Rogues? Well, I think we're not doing too badly. We have to compete for the DPS slot with everyone else, and the SOS thing makes us useful at times. I feel pretty well balanced in LDoN. Outside of LDoN, I'd probably be unhappy with the status quo.

Kineada
11-14-2003, 03:54 PM
While I agree that warriors are in dire need of help, I'm not sure what to do for them. Class balancing is just that, balancing.

Increasing warrior hps will require a balancing of raid and world encounters to allow for the increase. Increased mitigation will do the same.

Furor and others did some parses on top end melee classes and found that dps-wise, the classes are pretty well balanced.

So what to do? Damage per second is about right (within the noise). Hitpoints or mitigation can't be increased without upsetting the game world. And the snap aggro issue WILL trivialize encounters.

I do like some ideas put forthe around a special ability based on STA that would be available to pure melee classes. This is an idea implemented on other games but is a good idea and deserve some investigation.

Make them fairly expensive to use since STA regeneration spells are insane (Acumen). Not sure what kind of abilities would be appropriate for warriors (or monks or rogues) but I'm sure these classes can come up with some good ideas.

Kineada
11-14-2003, 04:05 PM
And now that a paladin has tanked everything there is to tank in the Plane of Time... why bother to have a warrior?

Someone forgot to mention that these knights needed /shield warriors to keep them up. There are several ways for a raid to have and eat their cake at the same time using this method.

Let's take the knight example. A knight under /shield grabs snap aggro and builds insane and unshakable aggro.

Now a warrior walks under the mob, pops defensive and AE Taunts. Guess what you just did ... You just transfered insane and unshakable aggro to a defensive warrior. This would be similar to ranger WS but saves the ranger's disc for TS.

Noliniel
11-14-2003, 04:05 PM
Well true pallys can tank Potime mobs. But warriors are much better at it. You can see the difference when you healing them. When I patched a knight tanking Inny in time , my heals land full most of the time. With a Warrior, my patch sometimes land for nothing and I can do other things other than patch. Warrior 's defensive disc and etc.. and also useful for tanking bosses in raids. Reason you see MT in almost every raiding guild is a Warrior and not Pally =p

Panamah
11-14-2003, 04:36 PM
So what to do? Damage per second is about right (within the noise). Hitpoints or mitigation can't be increased without upsetting the game world. And the snap aggro issue WILL trivialize encounters.



You make that statement like it's true across the board and I don't think it is. It might be for Elemental equipped meleers and hybrids and above, but I don't think it is below that level. I think it is very, very uneven.

Macnbaish
11-14-2003, 04:55 PM
Without rehashing everything here... yes warriors need help... I would say druids are 90% balanced.. warriors far less. I think pure melee might need some help.. but those that argue that warriors are just fine.. /boggle

lofun
11-14-2003, 04:57 PM
oblivious, you are completely oblivious


No . I am by far oblivious to the warrior situation .

People depend on druids to heal for the most part <gasp> I have no form of protecting myself from aggro when I heal but does this mean I need to spam every site, threaten SoE to quit EQ ,tell people I wont play anymore :boohoo:

Aaeamdar
11-14-2003, 05:44 PM
Warriors are close to fine, but they do need some help. PoP started off int eh right direction - class based armour that put warriors way ahead of the Knights in terms of AC and HP, then in Time that was reversed with more generic Plate Class armour and in LDoN it was made worse again by giving every class a form of Defensive via the Vie line.

The 3 step way of solving this is

1. a Warrior only class AA that actcs just like ND - adding 2/5/10 % HP. This would permantently make sure there is a significant gap in Warrior HP.

2. a Warrior only class AA that adds 2/5/10 % to AC. See above.

3. Remove the Vie line.

Alternatively, you can accept that warriors lack balance in the current content, and address the issues in the next expansion through Elemental Armour like itemization and balancing the new content to assume Vie is on the tanks. I personally prefer the former because it solves the problem permanently and it not at the mercy of some future expansion's intemization.

Kineada
11-14-2003, 06:03 PM
You make that statement like it's true across the board and I don't think it is.

I stand corrected. My statements only apply to end-game balance. It may be possible to contrive methods to "level" the equipment of the different classes but this tends to get muddy fairly quickly.

Take the classes in full Kunark gear versus full SoV versus full SoL versus full PoP gear and perform the parses again. It is important to keep the expansions separate if trying to determine how things balance out.

A knight with Ssra weapons versus a warrior with NToV weapons won't balance out properly for example. However, we do see people running around with exactly these types of equipment. And we can infer that they don't balance out from practical experience.

What I'm saying is most comparisons are done with end-game equipment simply because of mudflation. The gear gets better with every expansion. To try and balance melee dps across all expansions would pretty much change the game world as we know it. And would be impossible.

Warlord Kromagnon
11-15-2003, 03:24 AM
Yet another message board riddled with " help the warrior"
enough already. So you cant hold aggro like a pally or sk.

Deal with it. work harder get some augments on your weapons or something.

Go make another class or something , tell your groupmates to not attack so fast .

All this warrior stuff is getting damn near sickening

Haha, that's rich. Were you around during priest balancing? I'm sure you wouldn't be so cavalier about that kind of 'fix' if you were. All those 'or something's are great input, thanks for your consideration.

NOTE: Sarcasm directed at that particular poster alone, please do not whip out the leafblowers and DoT me into oblivion. :p

Panamah
11-15-2003, 10:46 AM
rogues i dont see too much of a problem with, their dps is easily the highest, altho i constantly hear panamah bitch about not being roguish enough

I think you're confusing me with Aly.

I would like more roguish rogues, but I'm not clear on how you'd do that without giving them an environment where they can use their roguish skills more. I think it's more of a content problem than a lack of skills problem for roguishness. We already do a lot of rogue things, but there isn't much opportunity for using them, except in LDoN with the trap disarming and scouting.

Jinjre
11-15-2003, 10:47 AM
I can only hope that whatever changes they make are made to affect the nonraiding warriors also. I have a 65 warrior who is also a main along with my druid. Even in the nonraiding aspects of combat, warriors have a horrid time with maintaining aggro.

If their fixes involve gear only obtainable by the elite, I will finally believe fully that they do not care about those of us who have stayed true to our small guilds, who still pay our monthly fees, who love to play this game as much as the uber people do, and who enjoy this game as much even though we play a different sort of game.

When priests were badly broken, I did make another character. I made a warrior. Apparently my luck is to blame for the state of warriors currenly.

Panamah
11-15-2003, 01:03 PM
Lofun that post was amazingly ignorant.

Sometimes it's just better to ignore stuff like that than respond to it.

lofun
11-15-2003, 04:26 PM
Lofun that post was amazingly ignorant

LOL A troll even , thats great.

We have half the population stating nothing really wrong with warriors , the other half stating there is. Every website I read is riddled with Warriors cry for help.

WTF is a stand down in an RPG game LOL , thats rediculous.

You will not find me stating that warriors have a problem, you will not see me stating warriors do have a problem . I simply said this is all pretty much rediculous.

Calling me a troll and ignorant ? give me a break here.

why don't you go play another game so you don't have to listen to them

Why don't you go play another game rather than listening to my point of veiw, it works both ways here. Classic, make a post that isnt all pretty and compassionate and get bashed LOL

I made post about how tired I am of seeing yet another warrior cry for help and you attack me , thats fine , your mental attitude has shown itself and does not bother me one bit.

If you guys read other boards I'm sure you will see I'm not the only one with my mindset.

I do not post all the time. I try not to make waves anywhere and when I do I am prepared to deal with the recourse of my actions.

Flame me , call me a troll. call me ignorant . I stand firm on my statements.

This warrior concern is focused towards high end tanks , and I'm sure you all realize that is a small percentage of the EQ population and should'nt be made a world wide crisis because another "tank" class can do a bit better in certain areas with certain mobs.

You don't like the fact that I'm a blunt person? You don't like the fact that I spoke my mind about my views on things? You bash me over that? LOL.

It's folks like you that keep people away from posting.

Warlord , you know where I was when the priest class's where changed? I was out learning new tactics and using what was given to me simple as that . I did not cry or make posts all over the web, I didn't make another class I dealt with it and I am still dealing with it and it's only making me stronger.

Tiane
11-15-2003, 05:55 PM
Lol... you speak as if a bright attitude will make all warrior (and any other) class issues just go away. Here's a little clue... this is a game. The rules are written by Sony and no matter how hard you try, if you arent given the tools to be effective by them then you will NOT be effective. It doesnt make your character stronger by playing them in a broken state. It doesnt make you look any more noble to toil away silently. This is a game and the squeaky wheel gets the grease, the silent one gets ignored.

Here's another tip... if you're tired of reading warrior cries for help... DONT READ THEM. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. By reading them and then complaining about them you look like a fool for wasting your own time, then wasting ours with pointless replies.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that the game has given flexibility and adaptiveness to all classes with a spell book, and has done nothing for the 3 without since Kunark. It's no surprise they're in a bad spot, and if you cant see that then I'd have to question your objectivity.

Either way, you are ranting on someone elses rant, and if you dont want to be labelled a troll, then stop trolling.

lofun
11-15-2003, 10:37 PM
It's no surprise they're in a bad spot, and if you cant see that then I'd have to question your objectivity.

Where the hell did I state warriors don't have a problem ?

My posts are done here, your welcome. Freedom of speech went right down the tube. Clearly you are reading something I didn't write .

I can only laugh.

When I post again someday I will make sure to agree with everyone and not offer my view if it's a negative one. LOL

So please feel free to carry on with the same topic . same rant over and over on all forums across the board.

Here's another tip... if you're tired of reading warrior cries for help... DONT READ THEM

Yes , thankyou Tiane clearly you win at life.

princess0fdiabl0
11-15-2003, 10:54 PM
lofun the simple and obvious fact is that you dont care, because it doesnt affect you. if you were a warrior, or druids were screwed, you would be bitching all the same.

also, this is NOT a high end only problem. My lvl 43 ranger constantly takes aggro from equivelant lvl warriors, even when using 2hs, without ANY spells or ANY procs.

"im sure you all realize that is a small percentage of the eq population"
oh really? do you have any evidence stating that the majority of players are not in the high end game? i just did a simple /who all 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 - 65 and each lvl before 50 gave less than 20 players. starting at 51 up to 65 it is ALL "your who request was cut too short..too many players" which leads me to think that the majority of the game, at least on my server, is 50+. Warriors have problems..... you guessed it, 50+!! and even before that to some extent. Add in the the amount of twinks (which is probly some 90% these days) of which many items are simple "plate" and you run into the crappy itemization stuff, even at lower levels. Lets not even talk about the all/all stuff.

After you run your mouth, try to back if up with some info thats not complete bs ~

Avendesoral
11-16-2003, 07:26 PM
Ever watch pallies/sks try to transfer aggro on a Time raid when the first tank goes down? Doesnt happen, not easily unless they have a ton of secondary aggro built up for some reason, which isnt normal.

Warriors in a group setting, Id say sure, they could use something, snap aggro like a pally for non raid trash mobs 65 and under perhaps. They dont need more hp, they dont need more mitigation, thier aggro on raids is fine. Look at that bitch thread the warriors have and compare how many clueless tards there are compared to warriors who know whats going on, not necessarily time/EP warriors either. Half of the warriors on there dont know what they want, they have a half assed idea about whats wrong and no idea how to fix it, aside from more hp/more mitigation, which is bull****. Ive known warriors that tanked using a GSFW from BoT that held aggro on raids/groups/anything as well as or better than any uber Time/EP tank, explain to me why he can do what the majority of the warrior community cannot? Im more inclined to believe that most warriors I meet suck.

Also bull****, you cant argue that because a knight and warrior use the same item, and it has mana/focus on it that its unfair to the warrior becuase knights get more out of it. Thats entirely ignorant, it goes towards making Knight's class complete, without it they would be a joke. Youll notice people all make the comparison to pallies, SKs are really still way behind in terms of need/desirability (god put thier group buffs in the bard window or something, gay sk buffs that you cant even click off are bloody annoying and they recast that crap continuously).

For groups, sure they could use improvement as far as desirability and aggro generation on non raid mobs. But that doesnt warrant some major class reitemization/balance. Rogues/monks Ill agree, you guys still have your place on raids, but group settings quite frankly Ill take a wizard/mage/ranger in a heartbeat first. Utility and convenience are the two things those classes are severely lacking.

Druids are really pretty well off, just some, I wont say minor, but obvious spell/aa/balance issues that probably arent top priority. On the whole I think most people here are just riding the bandwagon going along with whatever they hear because in groups (most) warriors suck ;p

Warlord Kromagnon
11-16-2003, 10:06 PM
Warlord , you know where I was when the priest class's where changed? I was out learning new tactics and using what was given to me simple as that . I did not cry or make posts all over the web, I didn't make another class I dealt with it and I am still dealing with it and it's only making me stronger.

New tactics? Is there more than one way to tank a mob? More than one way to hit auto-attack? More than one use for our disciplines?

I respect your ability to adapt to change, but my toolset compared to yours is pathetic.

I have a 65 druid with 170 days played, so I know the versatility they have. My 65 warrior with 196 days played has ZERO versatility.

I hit the mob by pressing my autoattack key.
If I don't want it to hit me, it won't.
If I want it to hit me, I might be able to persuade it to. Mostly.
If a support class gets in trouble, I /shield.
If a healer gets in trouble, I Area Taunt.

That's about it.

You acknowledge that warriors need help. That's very generous of you. If that's the case then you should also acknowledge that people who PLAY warriors also know this. So does SoE. Which is why they said they are going to fix pure melee. We've been waiting ten months. We've gotten zero information in that time, while our hybrid counterparts have grown in power. And grown. And grown. And they are now in a position to dominate the only role that we as a class can fill, at all levels of the game post-60.

I compare the current situation to giving shaman every spell in the druid spellbook in addition to thier own, except the ports. There. Have your fun niche role. We think it may be a problem and we are going to fix it. See you in August.