View Full Forums : Corruption of LDoN


Gimli fan
07-30-2003, 09:13 AM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Panamah
07-30-2003, 09:19 AM
I wonder if they planned the raid content from the start or whether it's a knee jerk reaction to the criticism? They sort of make it sound like they intended it, but I think they would've said so.

If so, I expect the knee to jerk again when people criticize the raid being capped at 36.

I don't blame people for criticizing. SOE guided the game into this very fractured state, now they're scrambling to keep everyone happy.

Oldoaktree
07-30-2003, 09:28 AM
I am sure they envisioned this as a purely group oriented expansion, and then suddenly saw enough raiders posting the "what next" question.

I still think the next expansion will be more balanced between the two, but that LDON was envisioned as a balance to the raid focus of POP.

Kneejerk is a very bad thing. I would sooner have them wait and put in better raid content than force it in now in this strange way.

I doubt very much the LDON raid content will be satisfying to that handful of guilds that has beaten Time already. And those still trying to get there will still be busy with content better suited to raids.

Panamah
07-30-2003, 10:37 AM
You just can't design the game around the top 1% of the guilds. :\

SilleyEskimo
07-30-2003, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You just can't design the game around the top 1% of the guilds. :mad: [/quote]

Actually, they can and often do. It just raises the bar for others to follow. For example, even the most casual guilds are capable of Veeshan era farming now. Many are now hitting VT for the very first time. All that content was geared towards the most Uber guilds, and it is eventually being accessed by the more casual guilds. Believe it or not, a couple of years from now, almost everyone will be capable of getting to Plane of Time. Of course, by then there will be a new challange in place that will make Time look like a cakewalk.

Oldoaktree
07-30-2003, 11:28 AM
1%?

That is ludicrous. Enough people already have done some simple math based on their own servers. I can tell you on mine there are hmm 6 full fledged raiding guilds and about another 5 active raiding guilds, accounting for somewhere around oh lets call it 125 people per guild on average, and probably like 200 accounts.

1% of all players would be about 80 people per server.

I would actually agree with you if they built an expansion of all Time like zones. I agreed when the PoP zones were mostly closed...that was just wrong.

But it is ludicrous to make such an unsupportable statement that raid content is only used by 1% of players.

Panamah
07-30-2003, 11:35 AM
Nope. The reason I said that is because if you do, then you're only designing content for them. For instance, they've finished PoP, or are close to it. So what do you do, create another PoP? I'm thinking that PoP took at least 8 months of development work.

That'd be great! Completely ignore content for casuals and mid-level guilds so that you can keep the top 1% busy and happy.

Your also assuming that everyone is going to choose to do that content and that's a faulty assumption. Not everyone cares for that stuff. In fact, quite a lot of people don't.

I'd maintain a truly casual guild isn't going to ever do VT or Plane of Time. If you're a casual guild, you're raiding a couple of nights a week if you can muster the people. Maybe eventually they might do Ssra, but the competition for the content isn't something casual guilds can compete with. The long key camps are going to shut them totally out of content.

Anyway, the real point was that the rate at which the mega-guilds content was the problem. If they're consuming it faster than you can produce it then you'll obviously have to leave developing content for everyone else out of the picture.

Capping encounters might be a good way to slow 'em down though. If you are forced to have raids of a certain size to progress, you can't just steamroller the content with number which I think is happening a lot in PoP.

Panamah
07-30-2003, 11:42 AM
But it is ludicrous to make such an unsupportable statement that raid content is only used by 1% of players.

I didn't say that. I said it's wrong to design content around the top 1%, i.e. the people finishing up PoP now. People are carrying on like Plane of Time has been finished by all the raiding guilds and they're out of content! Has anyone actually finished it yet, i.e. finished all the content and finished farming it? Maybe in the next month a guild or two might have done it. Probably less than 1%. Most guilds are not going to get through PoP for at least another 6 months, some will be working at it for years.

So if you're developing content for the few guilds, or guild, that will have finished PoP next month is just nuts.

Trying to stay ahead of that crowd would use all the development resources at SOE and then some. Meanwhile everyone else that wants tradeskills, casual or mid-level raiding guild content, will be left out to hang. Much like they've been left out to hang for quite some time.

EtadanikM
07-30-2003, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Believe it or not, a couple of years from now, almost everyone will be capable of getting to Plane of Time. Of course, by then there will be a new challange in place that will make Time look like a cakewalk.
[/quote]

I sincerely doubt that. Without SOE actively going in and tuning some of these encounters down, people not in raiding guilds are never going to see the plane of time.

There is a minority of players (I'd say 30%) on every server that is capable of, eventually, seeing all the content in the game. They may not be at the highest-end like AL or TR, and were probably still doing Luclin content when said guilds entered the Plane of Time, but they have the potential to eventually go to the Plane of Time as you say, once the true high-end game has moved on and old content becomes more trivialized.

But these are still only a minority of those who play EQ, and those whom SoE truly is trying to appeal to in LDoN - you know, the players who have played for four years and are still stuck in the 50's? They'll never see the Plane of Time, nor join any raiding guild, for that matter.

There are tons of people like that out there, but you don't see them often because while they pay the same money as everyone else, they don't play nearly as much as those who are in, and will progress with, raiding guilds.

For your statement to be true, everyone in the game should be currently capable of accessing Veeshan's Peak and slaying the dragons there. That's simply not true. The majority of the players in the game are still incapable of going into VP, much less slaying the dragons there, and there you have it.

Oldoaktree
07-30-2003, 11:49 AM
Quote:

I didn't say that. I said it's wrong to design content around the top 1%, i.e. the people finishing up PoP now. People are carrying on like Plane of Time has been finished by all the raiding guilds and they're out of content! Has anyone actually finished it yet, i.e. finished all the content and finished farming it? Maybe in the next month a guild or two might have done it. Probably less than 1%. Most guilds are not going to get through PoP for at least another 6 months, some will be working at it for years.


Why do you assume that only people who have finished pop look for raid content that works for more than 36 people at a time?

LDON will be the first true expansion that really offers no raid content of note at all, and there has never been an expansion that offered nothing for more casual players. POP was screwed up...badly. And I don't want them to shoe-horn in raid content in LDON where it doesn't sound like it balances conceptually. But saying that only 1% of players want large raid content is false.

Nimmamen
07-30-2003, 12:15 PM
sorry im kind of new to reading these boards, do druids _always_ bitch about ubers?


Keep in mind, your wrong about this, because the raids max at <strong>32</strong> people! PoP required zergs of 72+.

Tuppen FV
07-30-2003, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>sorry im kind of new to reading these boards, do druids _always_ bitch about ubers?[/quote]

Nah...actually, there is a lot of complaining about both casuals and ubers by both extremes on these boards.

I have been lurking for a long time, but only recently started posting. Although it seems to disturb some of the high end folks, I find it rather refreshing that the "casual" community seems to actually be the majority of late.

Regardless, I think it is good that we have all perspectives here. Overall, I think if you read through most posts, the "ubers" and the "casuals" agree more often than they disagree. Only problem is that sometimes it is easy to forget that everyone has their own definition of fun.

It helps maintain the peace better when folks don't make comments like you did though. Saying that druids "b*tch" about "ubers" kind of just stirs things up, you know?

Thandril
07-30-2003, 01:05 PM
Actually its normally a vocal few that yell at each other over the these issues. If you look at how many people join in and the numbers of people the grove has visiting its a small minority. Most enjoy the threads of interest and contribute now and then when they feel so inclined :)

Panamah
07-30-2003, 01:14 PM
Why do you assume that only people who have finished pop look for raid content that works for more than 36 people at a time?

Because they've had to bloat up their guilds to 80ish levels to get through PoP. I @#%$ you to Furor's tantrum of a few months ago. I @#%$ you to all the people complaining about the capped raids in LDoN. They all cite PoP for causing them to have to expand their guilds to enormous sizes.

Why would a guild who hasn't completed PoP care whether or not LDoN has raid content? There's so much raid content out there now that by the time they do finish PoP the next expansion will be out that will more than likely have more raid content.

The smaller guilds will be happy about the cap, that means that the encounters might actually be acheivable for them.

But saying that only 1% of players want large raid content is false.

I really wish you'd stop saying I said that. It isn't what I said or even what I meant.

However, I do agree with you on your point that they shouldn't be trying to retrofit additional crap into LDoN, especially at this late date. Other than that, we might as well be speaking different languages for as well as we're communicating here.

Stormfront
07-30-2003, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>For your statement to be true, everyone in the game should be currently capable of accessing Veeshan's Peak and slaying the dragons there. That's simply not true. The majority of the players in the game are still incapable of going into VP, much less slaying the dragons there, and there you have it.[/quote]

Actually, VP IS accessible to anyone these days. I know people in VERY small guilds that are now slaying dragons with a couple of groups. I've personally killed some of the dragons with 4-5 people. It can be done now, just as Vindi can be 1-grouped now. Just as Woushi can be done with 1-group.

Panamah
07-30-2003, 01:57 PM
Remember though that VP was aimed at level 60 or less characters back in the Kunark era and it was geared to raids. Although a group can definitely go to VP and play, I think they'd be a group that couldn't really use anything from VP. Also, probably Trakanon is doable with one group now, but again, a single-group that was killing Trak wouldn't need anything from VP.

So sure, by the time a group can a former raid target, whatever the raid target is dropping is probably obsoleted by stuff you can buy in Bazaar.

Oldoaktree
07-30-2003, 03:39 PM
Quote:


Why would a guild who hasn't completed PoP care whether or not LDoN has raid content? There's so much raid content out there now that by the time they do finish PoP the next expansion will be out that will more than likely have more raid content.


Why should any player look at an expansion and say it isn't for them?

Yah, we will all benefit from new experience spots, though not soloers.

But making an expansion without solid raid content is no more valid than making POP so heavily focussed to end game raiding was.

And sorry, but every expansion up to POP has been 70% at least geared towards all players. Kunark - only one keyed, end game zone. Velious - only one keyed but two end game zones. Luclin - one fully keyed zone, with a couple other partial zones that are keyed for the end game.

POP was out of balance. LDON is too, really. I don't mind that too much since I am banking on a spring expansion that offers more to raiding guilds.

And whether you realize it or not, raiding guilds DO incorporate new content into their menu of activities when it becomes available. When an expansion comes out, normally it means there is a bit more raid content to add variety and to allow guilds to spread out into. That will not happen till Spring 04 at this point.

Panamah
07-30-2003, 03:47 PM
Why does the message forum filter out the word r e f e r? Seems like kind of a simple word, one unlikely to offend anyone. Are they confusing with reefer?

Panamah
07-30-2003, 03:56 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And whether you realize it or not, raiding guilds DO incorporate new content into their menu of activities when it becomes available. When an expansion comes out, normally it means there is a bit more raid content to add variety and to allow guilds to spread out into. That will not happen till Spring 04 at this point. [/quote]

That's fine, but to complain you're out-of-content when the vast majority of raiding guilds haven't even come close to finishing the last expansion yet just sounds a little oinky. Especially to me. I finished the PoP expansion in January. I got absolutely as far as I'll ever go in it and have been out-of-content ever since.

Oldoaktree
07-30-2003, 04:51 PM
I really wonder if it is worth responding to that.

No, I did not say I was out of content.

No, I did not ask for an all raid expansion.

In fact, I said I would sooner not see any raid content in LDON than see it done half assed.

Consider me oinky if you dare, but it is ludicrous to have taken the position you did about POP and then turn around and deny anyone else the right to content suited to them in a subsequent expansion.

I agreed with you about POP...but not about this. If this game became all about group size encounters and small raids I know I would quickly leave it. That deosn't interest me.

I feel more sympathetic for those who do not have anything new left to do...but then by the same token the fact that they don't means that other guilds behind them on their servers must continue to compete with them for prior expansion content.

Twein
07-30-2003, 06:51 PM
I found this quite amusing:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Capping encounters might be a good way to slow 'em down though. If you are forced to have raids of a certain size to progress, you can't just steamroller the content with number which I think is happening a lot in PoP. [/quote]

If anyone would know about mindlessly zerging content...welcome to the "Protect Our Content" side of the argument.

EtadanikM
07-30-2003, 08:08 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Actually, VP IS accessible to anyone these days. I know people in VERY small guilds that are now slaying dragons with a couple of groups. I've personally killed some of the dragons with 4-5 people. It can be done now, just as Vindi can be 1-grouped now. Just as Woushi can be done with 1-group.
[/quote]

What uber guild members can do with one group is not really at question here, and since your friend in very small guilds can field "a couple of groups", I would hardly call them casual non-raiders, eh?

The truth is, if your friends play enough to see VP, they probably aren't playing casually. What SoE intends to do in LDoN - or so they say - is to attract people whose only time to play in a day maybe the 50 minutes it takes to do one LDoN dungeon crawl.

Zyphyr
07-30-2003, 09:56 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why does the message forum filter out the word r e f e r?[/quote]

Because it is present in most of the O.utwar and related spam links. Blocking that word servers to screw up those link, thwarting the scum who post them w/o manual intervention of a moderator.


Back to the real subject :

If the raid content in LDoN provides actual challenges and suitable loot, it is almost certain that my (raiding, Elemental) guild will end up spending time doing those raids. Why?

- We frequently have 30-40 people on several hours before our 'prime time'. Not enough to raid PoP mobs, but they would like to do some raiding while waiting for the rest of the guild to show up.
- After Prime-Time we generally have the 30-40 left online who would like to hit another target or two, but we can't because the rest logged.
- Some days there just isn't anything suitable for us to kill. We have roughly 6 other guilds on our server on the same level as us. That is a rather large amount of competition.

Stormfront
07-31-2003, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What uber guild members can do with one group is not really at question here, and since your friend in very small guilds can field "a couple of groups", I would hardly call them casual non-raiders, eh?[/quote]

haha, because they can field 12 people they must not be casual? Gimme a break. VP key quest isn't that hard, the only part that requires anything remotely like a raid is Trak, which is quite often done with a pickup raid on my server or a couple of smaller guild groups (that can actually USE the armor he drops, no not casual at all /sarcasm). So yes, I *would* call the casual non-raiders. 12 people isn't all that uncommon for a smallish family guild who likes to play together.

Stewwy
07-31-2003, 11:47 AM
Our guild is VERY casual.

With that said we do HoT on our own, can complete any of the epics and are truly starting to spread our wings and see what small numbers of high level but not uber equiped people can do. We can easily field 2 groups of 60+ individuals with another 1-2 groups of 55+. And if scheduled properly could get up to 6 groups 55+.

We are not raiders, our loot policy is easy to define as NBG and DKP will never exist in our guild. People come out for raids to help their friends and to have fun. When we raid we do it well with what we feel are the application of good solid tactics.

Will you ever see us in VP? Not likely.
In Sleepers? Maybe.
In Vex Thal? Only if they remove the key.
In Elemental planes? If they remove the flags.

See we can do all these things, but we have no requirement to do so. People can come to 1 raid or 10 and still have rights to roll on loot. Thing is someone that only comes to the raids that get them loot won't last long in our guild because their attitude will be apparent and they will end up detached from the family as a whole. And such an attitude will also get them spoken to by the officers.

You see being able to raid and do it well does not label us as raiders. All it means is that we take pride in what we do, and raiding, like tradeskills and other things in Norrath, we wish to do well, when we do them.

Stormfront
07-31-2003, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Will you ever see us in VP? Not likely.
In Sleepers? Maybe. [/quote]

Just wanted to say bud, I'd guess you'd get into VP quicker than Sleeper's. Sleeper's is a horrible time sink since only certain mobs drop Sleeper's keys and it makes a horrible bottle neck. Nearly every member in my guild is VP keyed, but only the bare minimum support classes and most melee have Sleeper's keys (melee because of the nice avatar proccing weapons that make a difference for them).

Panamah
07-31-2003, 12:29 PM
There's actually some nice drops for casters off the Ancients. Well, nice for me but probably obsolete by PoP standards. :P

If you can figure out how to do Sontalak with low numbers then you could get keyed up for ST pretty quickly. Everyone hates doing Sont so he's up all the time.

If 6 Ranja's can do it....

Xitix
07-31-2003, 02:42 PM
Raids with targets that are rate limited by the group/raid rather than the server overall appeal to casual players. It means they can schedule a raid without worrying about respawn, competition and griefing. Adding raid content to LDoN does not equal adding a new top end to the game. It might just be targets around Ssra level that smaller guilds can attempt on thier time and not have to race or do without.

Panamah
07-31-2003, 03:52 PM
I wouldn't think LDoN is going to intersect with any other expansion Xitix, expansions tend to be stand-alone.

Cantatus
07-31-2003, 10:57 PM
I've been predicting since the first announcement of LDoN that there would be raid content of some sort. Sony likes for their expansions to appeal to everyone in one way or another. The more expansions they sell, the more of a profit they make. Even in expansions where it is based for a certain level group, they add something to appeal to those that can't use a majority of the content. PoK, the bigger banks, dying, etc. are examples of this.

Of course, the pessimist in me says that Sony saw all the complaints about there being no raid content and figured they had to add it so more people would buy the expansion.

However, as long as the addition of raid content does not alter or remove any of the group content I am happy. They could add all the raid content, untested, the day before release and I could care less. I just want my group content.

Stewwy
08-01-2003, 05:47 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>However, as long as the addition of raid content does not alter or remove any of the group content I am happy. They could add all the raid content, untested, the day before release and I could care less. I just want my group content.[/quote]

Yep that is how I feel 100%!

What I find most interesting is that most of the raiders that have commented about it the adding of raid content could care less because PoP has driven their guilds to such large sizes that a 36 person limit does not appeal to them. I am not criticizing that perception or feeling, but I wonder what kind of raid content it will be if the top tier guilds aren't/won't be interested in it?

anaxamandra
08-01-2003, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I find most interesting is that most of the raiders that have commented about it the adding of raid content could care less because PoP has driven their guilds to such large sizes that a 36 person limit does not appeal to them. I am not criticizing that perception or feeling, but I wonder what kind of raid content it will be if the top tier guilds aren't/won't be interested in it?[/quote]

I personally am <em>interested</em> just concerned about leaving anyone out of the main group that wants to participate. Perhaps as someone suggested the best use of the content will be before or after regular raids or an offnite.

Autumn10
08-02-2003, 06:40 AM
Silley said it: casual guilds will gradually be able to get into higher end areas. Long key camps don't prevent anything Panamah, they just slow things down. Are you telling me you can't camp shards in 4 hours? Or even 2 hours? You could camp them for 2 minutes each day and still get them eventually. That's why it's a BS argument to use for casuals and why I think the ones posting as such here are just lazy and don't want to put forth the effort. These things can and have been done by casual guilds. If you're so casual that you like to just sit around and shoot the breeze and do nothing anyway then that's your choice. You shouldn't be given items for doing so though.

Panamah
08-02-2003, 06:53 AM
What is the use of camping shards if you can't kill the emperor or clear vex thall?

There you go again equating being a casual player with being lazy.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If you're so casual that you like to just sit around and shoot the breeze and do nothing anyway then that's your choice. You shouldn't be given items for doing so though. [/quote]

You are getting quite trollish. I shouldn't even respond your posts are reaching new depths.

So, what do unguilded people do, collect 10 shards and frame them? What do people do in weird time zones? What do people do that are in small guilds that don't have enough people online to kill the emperor or farm vex thal? What about people that only play for a couple of hours online and a odd times?

You're like someone rich who complains that poor people could be rich too if they'd just exert themselves.

Autumn10
08-02-2003, 07:41 AM
Hmm, and you haven't been trollish Panamah? I love the double standard from some posters. You have to love the hypocrisy...ahhh.

I don't equate casual with being lazy, I equate SOME of the casuals here being lazy since they have an excuse for everything. Some of these things can be done whether you admit or not. Denying it doesn't prove your point, win any arguments, or mean you can't do them.

People that are only online two hours can achieve advancement. Odd times can be a boon actually because you don't have to fight crowds as much. You apparently see the glass half empty while I see it half full. *shrug*

Obviously you wouldn't camp those things if you can't kill Emp or do VT. But even those things could be in your grasp depending on how casual you are. If you're in a guild that likes to just bop around, chat, and not get too invloved then no, you don't deserve the better loot. Everything in life takes effort. So do games. I don't know of any game that doesn't take at least SOME effort.

AlyssiaLaterose
08-03-2003, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>People that are only online two hours can achieve advancement. Odd times can be a boon actually because you don't have to fight crowds as much. You apparently see the glass half empty while I see it half full. *shrug*[/quote]

Yeah, sure. *dumps the glas on Autumn* I've seen what the game is like at those "odd" hours. And unless your server has a sizeable eruo population... you're not getting @#%$ done unless you're a pure solo character. Especially as a casual gamer.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you're in a guild that likes to just bop around, chat, and not get too invloved then no, you don't deserve the better loot. Everything in life takes effort. So do games. I don't know of any game that doesn't take at least SOME effort.[/quote]

edit: expletives deleted. No personal attacks please.

Autumn10
08-04-2003, 07:12 AM
Hey, love those personal attacks Alyssia. I don't know why you're even allowed to go on. You should have been banned a long time ago. In any case, you're the one that needs to get a life and stop getting so upset and showing such hatred towards people over a game.

AlyssiaLaterose
08-04-2003, 01:22 PM
Eh, I forgot to double check my post this morning. Big deal. I usually type what I'm thinking first and then edit it to clean it up before I post it. So I skipped a step this morning. We had a gas line rupture a mile from my house so I wasn't really worried about my post.

Anyway... as I have said before many times. Expecting people to sacrifice their real life outside the game just to be able to play the complete game is ridiculous. There's nothing you can ever show me to prove that you're better than me and deserve better gear than me because you can sit on your ass for longer periods of time, more frequently than I can.

I may be the best rogue in the game, but it means jack if I can only play for an hour to two hours here and there. When there's nothing left for me to do in a reasonable amount of time... the game is broken. LDoN is going to fix that.

Deneldor2
08-05-2003, 12:25 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There's nothing you can ever show me to prove that you're better than me[/quote]

We could show you your posts at this site.

Talanon316
08-05-2003, 01:15 AM
I swear between Pana and Alyssia, you two have turned every thread into this stupid debate. I'll just put it bluntly this time and maybe stuff will sink in...
You are spoiled brats, you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. You CAN NOT expect to see the same gains from a game that other people see, if you don't put for the time and effort that they do. Do you not think people would not stay up for hours past when they should have gone to bed some nights so the could get a good nights sleep if you could have loot handed to you at the end of each 2 hour gaming session? Here you go Alyssia would you like to see my new [Ifir, Dagger of Fire]. "Casual" gamers are starting to pop up in places like NToV, HoT, ST, right about now. That shows progression to me. No way could casual gamers have been there during Velious. Do you think that maybe.... just maybe that the casual players are starting to hit around the same /played that we were at when we hit those areas? In one place you say that quests should have no more limitations then raid encounters on items. Then you amend that slightly by saying as long as it takes the same amount of time. THEN you go around spewing all over the board that you can't get into the same places I'm in.
<strong>READ THIS CAREFULLY! There are quite a few "raiders" that are not even in the elemental planes yet and still YOU want to be able to get into them NOW? <---- This is where your logic is flawed no one says you can't get into these places ever you just have to put for the same about of time that we did</strong>
OK, now stop and read that one more time.... Done yet? Good. Do you even see why everyone is starting to turn on you? All your looking like is are spoiled brats, and it's really starting to grate peoples nerves (especially mine)

BricSummerthorne
08-05-2003, 04:19 AM
<strong>We had a gas line rupture a mile from my house so I wasn't really worried about my post.</strong>

Based on the evidence, that gas line has been broken for weeks.

AlyssiaLaterose
08-05-2003, 04:52 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You are spoiled brats, you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. You CAN NOT expect to see the same gains from a game that other people see, if you don't put for the time and effort that they do.[/quote]

I don't want it on a @#%$ silver platter god dammit! Read my damned posts. Read Pana's posts. We want to <strong>earn</strong> our gear through <strong>challenging</strong> encounters, for a single group at our own damn pace.

We want to be able to progress through the game and see everything that can be seen without sacrificing things in real life. Without being forced to log on six hours a day six days a week. Any kind of game that requires that kind of commitment is seriously flawed.

That's the biggest problem I have with this game are the time requirements needed at one sitting to be able to see any progress made. I can't log on for a couple hours here and there and eventually see everything. It's impossible and it <strong>should not</strong> be that way.

Even the casual gamers that are going to HoT and such... it's like one day a week for three or four hours at a time. They might see NToV next year... I'm not asking for a magical access pass to the ele planes right now. I'm asking for a reasonable path of access compared to the ****hole it is now.

TeriMoon
08-05-2003, 05:11 AM
If you are fine with waiting a year, then please wait a year before you say its impossible.

Want a suggestion? Explore the new Hate. Marsinger quests are great. Hate is a great zone to exp in at 65. Gem drops are not what they used to be. I'm not going to say anymore, but why don't you stop worrying about something you may not try for a year and take advantage of what is offered right now. I'm telling you, spend some quality time in Hate. You won't be disappointed.

To me, you sound like me. Remember a few months ago when pretty much everything in PoN was green and LB at 65? When PoV/PoS was about the best many level 65s could do if they were strictly casual? When there were no zone revamps to provide additional playing areas for people who were burned out on PoP progression and outdoor boring camps?

So much of that has changed. Yet, you are saying the same things we said back then. We got a lot of what we asked for. Alternate quests were made easier, zones were opened up without keys/flags, there have been nice revamps (please check out hate), and there is a new expansion coming soon that looks very promising. That's a lot to do without giving up your values and joining the enemy (this is dry humor, folks).

Everything is not perfect, of course. But, its so much better than it was, I am really having a hard time being patient with your constant complaining. There have always been, and probably always will be things that are not available readily to "casual" players. I can't imagine, even during much of Luclin, that casual players could have thought to do NToV. But, now they do. Levels and AAs and time have made it possible. The biggest complaint with PoP is that you levelled to 65 easily enough but had no access to zones that dropped reasonable amount of spectral parchments and runes, and that it got really really really old exping in the same few zones. Those things are less true today.

Ok, I dount any of my words will change your behavior here. But, honestly, you are beating a dead horse IMO.

Autumn10
08-05-2003, 06:17 AM
No, read our posts Alyssia. Since the single group encounter won't BE as challenging then you don't deserve loot as good. They never were and never will be so just deal with it. You want to upgrade to the best gear with less effort, period.

AlyssiaLaterose
08-05-2003, 11:13 AM
Autumn, stop trolling with your petty argument. You're adding nothing constructive at all. I am in denial about nothing. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Which is exactly how much I care about your posts. Until you can provide some kind of intelligble debate, I won't be responding to any more of your posts.

TeriMoon:

I have been to the new Hate. They've totally gimped the Book of Souls for rogue epic now. *sighs* It's by far too easy to sneak from the zone in to get the book now. Getting people to go to hate for farming/xp'ing... that's like pulling a tooth. If there's not a GY in a zone... the first thing out of their mouth is "No".

There's just not enough people interested in having fun in the game. Their whole goal is to be "uber". Most fail at that and instead get burnt out on the xp grind/aa grind and never make it past attempting HoT and some Luclin raid targets.

Kaledan
08-05-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
There's just not enough people interested in having fun in the game.
[/quote]

Doesn't that kind of argue against your claim to be in a 98% majority against the tiny 2% of evil ubers?

soru

AlyssiaLaterose
08-05-2003, 02:50 PM
Just because that's their goal... it doesn't mean they are going to reach it. They're sacrificing seeing the game just to level up as fast as they can because they've been brainwashed by the vocal minority that the game didn't start until after 50th level... now the same vocal minority has probably upped that to 60th level.

People see the ubers posting on various message boards, flashing links across server chat channels... they see all these guides to leveling and fast plat ... but they don't see the real fun behind the game.

That fact has been proven to me countless times in the last few weeks on my level 35 cleric and 40 druid. I try to drag people to SolB for xp and such... and nine times out of ten... I get asked what SolB is and where it is. When I tell them where and what... they usually don't want to go. They prefer the safe, easy grinding in outdoor zones because that's where the unwashed masses have been herded to. Fast, easy xp to get to the goober levels.

TeriMoon
08-05-2003, 04:40 PM
Again, this is not the fault of "ubers". Its partly human nature and its partly a problem of bad PoP design. The new expansions always set the tone until the next new expansion, and there was no content for anyone under level 47. So, that's what people did. This is how the game is. Why? Marketing plays to human nature.

It takes time to find folks that are a good fit to play the game with. Some of the best friends I made in the game turned out not to be a good fit for me. And that was dreadfully difficult. It has taken me years to land where I am now finally. And I have none of the sinking feeling I have had with the other 5 guilds I have belonged to. But it has taken this long and me trying things out of my comfort zone to find it.

EQ can be influenced by the people who play it. It is ok to voice concerns and frustrations and point out poor design. But the reality is that there are many games being played out in the virtual world of Norrath. Not just raiding or casual but also roleplay, bold explorer, bazaar, etc.. Its really unfortunate that SOE doesn't have a clue about their own game, but its not the gamers fault. Just stop beating up on people who are also just trying to have fun when its SOE we need to be holding accountable. Bickering over who has the right to the toys is a miserable place to be for everyone. Its miserable to do and miserable to watch.

Hate is great fun! Its great exp in spots. Nice quests. Lots to see there. Keep looking for folks who will go.

AlyssiaLaterose
08-05-2003, 05:12 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The new expansions always set the tone until the next new expansion, and there was no content for anyone under level 47. So, that's what people did.[/quote]

You don't get it... these people had never heard of SolB... never. They were stuck in the mindset that fast, easy xp in outdoor zones was the only way to play the game. I've drug many groups into dungeons and tried to teach them the fun of it.. and after a wipe... most of them give up. Even though after rezzes and such, they're still ahead on xp than if they had spent the entire time doing safe xp in an outdoor zone.

Autumn10
08-05-2003, 06:12 PM
Alyssia stop trolling with your petty arguments. You're adding zip, zero, zilch. You seem to think in absolutes and extremes for some reason. You have a narrow view of the game and refuse to believe there's any other perspective or truth other than your warped ones.

There are plenty of more family oriented and casual guilds that raid a lot less than 6 days a week and 6 hours a night. They not only raid less than that but they do indeed raid higher end stuff. Case in point: my guild. We just started trying Bertox, and will be trying RX and MM as soon as we can find them up. We have also started camping shards for VT and Emp key items for an alternative path.

There's no law that says you have to be in an uber guild, and you don't have to be in one to do high level content. Again, you seem to be denial concerning just about everything. You remind me of the kids that put their hands over their ears and say "la la la" real loud to drown out stuff they don't want to hear. I will say it one more time: you don't have to be in an uber guild to kill higher end stuff and get raid type loot. These guilds also don't raid 6 nights a week for 6 hours each time. There are guilds like mine that raid 3 nights a week for 4-5 hours(sometimes less) and like I said we are ready to make the final push to the elemental planes. But of course you don't want to hear that because then you would have to admit you're wrong. DENIAL. "La la la, I can't hear you!"

TeriMoon
08-05-2003, 06:38 PM
You two need to go into opposite corners with your backs to each other and not speak for 15 minutes please. Geez. Stop already.

I do get what you are saying. People who are new to the game haven't experienced the full game. They don't spend enough time at lower levels to do dungeon crawls and learn those skills and experience that rush. They do what PoP teaches them to do, sit on a wall and pull and pull and pull.

I'm glad I didn't have that experience. I'm glad you didn't. I can't change the fact that the game has evolved and that people dont' currently view their "middle years" as being very valuable or anyplace to spend quality time in. I think its possible that LDON will change that. However, I don't see how you can reasonably expect new people to follow the same path of progression (even if it was fun) that you followed to get to where you are. People get to choose there own fun within the parameters that the game allows. The game is big enough that you can get to 65 sitting on a zone wall somewhere pulling. If people find that fun somehow, or are able to at least tolerate it to get to the fun they anticipate having at a higher level, who are we to say its wrong?

You can't control what other people find fun. I don't mean any discourtesy, but you seem to be spending a lot of time and energy trying to correct other people's ideas about the game and about fun, instead of searching for your own. Maybe its not contained within the game. Maybe it is. I don't know. I was convinced that the game was dead for me. I took time off. I decided that I had enjoyed it enough to give it a last try, and now I have decided to play a different part of the game. Its not a part I ever thought I would enjoy, but I do. This is part of life, learning to adapt to the old ways changing. On the other hand, I bet there are at least 5 other people on your server somewhere who can be convinced to go to a non-pop zone. They have eased up on the funnel effect that PoP had, on the restrictiveness of the level ranges for exp at 60+, on the flagging requirements, and have actually made minor improvements to the nerfed drop rate in some zones. LDON is soon.

All the time you spend worrying that others are not finding the fun you want them to find, all the time you spend beign upset about progressing your character, all that time and all that energy could maybe be better spent looking for something in the game you do enjoy and doing more of that.

Good luck to you.

P.S. Autumn10 please do not respond to this post, thank you.

AlyssiaLaterose
08-05-2003, 08:28 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>All the time you spend worrying that others are not finding the fun you want them to find, all the time you spend beign upset about progressing your character, all that time and all that energy could maybe be better spent looking for something in the game you do enjoy and doing more of that.[/quote]

I do try to get people to crawl dungeons... but the only time people want to go to dungeons, are when they know there's phat lewts to be had. Or when they're brand spanking new. It's like pulling teeth trying to get people to go to Veksar now, so I just casually mention the zone in the guild channel I have access to and occasionally people go with me, but not nearly as often as I'd like...

Plus half the time when I do get to Veksar, there's level 65 necros from the uber guilds farming the named spawns over and over and over and over. I've inspected those necros and they have no need for those drops at all. They're just there farming the easy mobs for some aaxp and the lewts to sell.

I'm sick of that. You never crawl a dungeon in D&D only to find some feigned monk camping the rare spawn you need. EverQuest shouldn't be like that either. LDoN is fixing that finally.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>P.S. Autumn10 please do not respond to this post, thank you.[/quote]

Hrm, I need to try this. Hopefully it works! I've had some great debates with people that can see why I feel the way I do.

Autumn10
08-06-2003, 06:13 AM
The only people that can see the way you do are the other people that deny everything and want everything given to them Alyssia. That's the recurring theme in all of your posts whether you admit it or not.

Terimoon: here's my response to your post - neener neener. :p

vowelumos
08-08-2003, 05:27 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You don't get it... these people had never heard of SolB...[/quote]

They have now it is that zone by SolC

AlyssiaLaterose
08-08-2003, 10:02 AM
Yeah I know. I got trained six times when I was trying to get to the Windows camp with my cleric's group at level 34. *sighs* At lest the newness has worn off some and it's a little safer in SolB now.

Demasia
08-11-2003, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>READ THIS CAREFULLY! There are quite a few "raiders" that are not even in the elemental planes yet and still YOU want to be able to get into them NOW? <---- This is where your logic is flawed no one says you can't get into these places ever you just have to put for the same about of time that we did[/quote]

That is the attitude that creates the divide between ubers and non-ubers. The poster is in a dream where he believes that he actually "worked" harder for the uber gear than those who don't have it. The reality is that he could be playing less than half as much as his counterpart who isn't in a raid guild and is oddly the one called the "casual" player.

Bluntly stated, an overwhelming majority of the ubers are post Kunark noobs who wanted the uber guild phat lewtz. The vast majority would have grouped rather than raided if the phat lewtz was to be found in group encounters rather than raids.

The notion that the rewards are proportional to time and effort is absurd. It isn't an individual's time and effort that kills the boss and gains access to the elemental planes, it is a large raiding guild. There are those who have built those large raiding guilds and there are those who have been loyal through thick and thin while they developed and grew. There also those who jumped on the coat tails much later and now tell everyone how they are so much more deserving, including the guilds that they hopped through to get their epics and other neccessities.

Sorry, but I don't buy your bill of goods. My hundreds of days played, my 10 hour days, my 65 levels, my four years plus and my having raided since cracking Fear pre Kunark isn't "lazy" as Autumn10 likes to call us "casuals" and leads me to ak what qualifies you to say we "casuals" do not put in the same time you have?

By virtue of your choice to join a lage raiding guild, you enjoy access to the elemental planes and if you aren't a PoP Noob Uber, then it is likely you already had VT gear. Because your guild (not you) could kill Mob X, you have enjoyed access that allowed you to gain better exp and enjoy prized drops even while <strong>grouping</strong>. Meanwhile, we "casuals" have been <em>lazily</em> grouping and trying to scrape together the plat to buy the extra lewtz, including our spells, you had to sell (emphasis on you gained it while <strong>grouping</strong>).

This arguement between "casuals" and ubers bothers many people and many like to silence it. The problem is that there are real issues in the game design that disproportionately rewards raiding, allowing characters that are less than a few months old to surpass the access, opportunity and gear of those "casuals" with years under there belts and hundreds of days played. This is a forum recognized and viewed by Sony representatives and for that reason alone this debate and those arguing should not be silenced.

I am hopeful that LDoN brings parity to the time and risk vs reward equation between raiding and grouping. I don't think it is illogical that someone grouping for a 1000 hours should have just as good gear as someone who raids for a 1000 hours. If raiding is simply a matter of play style preference like soloing as so many have claimed, then I can't understand why there is an arguement. The truth is that a large number of raiders would be devout groupers if the phat lewtz was obtainable without raiding.

For those who wonder why everyone doesn't join a large raiding guild if they want access and equity for time and risk invested, it is about choice. I choose to not be associated with cerain people who I disdain or disrespect in RL and can't imagine why I should have to compromise myself in a game. There isn't a large raiding guild or uber guild on my server that doesn't have in it's ranks many friends of mine who I am very fond of, however those same guilds also have punk kids who whored their way through and took advantage of other guilds and people to get where they are now for the phat lewtz and prestige. Others are welcome to tolerate them, but noone should have to in order to play the game's content or to be rewarded proportionally to their time and risk commited.

Deneldor2
08-11-2003, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Bluntly stated, an overwhelming majority of the ubers are post Kunark noobs who wanted the uber guild phat lewtz.[/quote]

My idiot detector just exploded and fell off the monitor. I cant even bother to explain why anymore, you just go on living in your little dream world.

Demasia
08-11-2003, 08:12 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My idiot detector just exploded and fell off the monitor.[/quote]

Brilliant rebuttal. Directly addresses nothing and seeks to gain comfort from others who might enjoy the humor, yet reveals your personal defensiveness to the comment.

I didn't think some ubers would like it that some people view them as noobs. Sorry Deneldor2, but it is all relative.

Palarran
08-11-2003, 09:02 AM
By "post Kunark", do you mean starting after the release of Kunark, or after the time when Kunark was the only expansion? Where would I fit in, starting my first character a few months before the release of Kunark, taking a break for a few months around the time of Kunark's release then starting the character that became my main?

In any case it's certainly not an overwhelming majority. Looking at application pages for top guilds, it is clear most of them want people who are motivated and willing to put in individual effort. They seem to dislike moochers as much as you do. (They may make exceptions for certain classes that they need, but these people are in the minority.)

Replace "overwhelming majority" with "some" and you have a point. It IS true that some people ride in on the tremendous effort of others, and feel entitled to the rewards of the effort of the other people. As much as people complain about the VT key, one of the good things about it is that it requires individual effort in addition to raid participation.

Panamah
08-11-2003, 09:15 AM
I think that probably depends Pala, on what phase the guild is in. If they're in a big recruiting phase they're probably taking in a lot of relative noobs. I've seen it happen to the bigger guilds on my server quite frequently.

Deneldor2
08-11-2003, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Brilliant rebuttal. Directly addresses nothing and seeks to gain comfort from others who might enjoy the humor, yet reveals your personal defensiveness to the comment[/quote]


The reason it addresses nothing is the issue has been addressed a million times. So to put your mind at your rest I can asssure you that NOBODY EVER gets into a high end raiding guild without proving their knowledge of the game.

Every guild I know has very high requirements, almost all have a pre-app period which if successfully seen through then entitles the applicant to a full trial, minimum length of a full trial would be 1 month, many are longer. During trial periods very high attendance is expected, almost as high as some people claim is required to be in the end game. The reason for all this is to avoid precisely what you claim.

Nobody is claiming that we get it 100% correct, but looking at my own guild I'd say we hit it 95% of the time and the other high end guilds I know of can say the same.

You are just another person from a non-high end guild trying to convince yourself that somehow yours is the noble path and gives you some kind of wisdom.

To be as frank as you were, thats complete garbage. The "overwhelming majority" of high end players that I come into contact with (probably over 500) have been around forever, seen it all and more importantly done it all, have you?

Demasia
08-11-2003, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In any case it's certainly not an overwhelming majority.[/quote]

I lack empirical data to substantiate stating it as an "overwhelming majority" and can only use my personal observations and related facts.

1. Large number of servers brought online post Kunark (the reference has traditionally distinguished between the era before any of the add-ons).
2. The number of Iksar, Vah Shir and Frog characters in the large raiding guilds.
3. Personal knowledge of who used to be in the uber guilds on my server and how few of them are present today.
4. My memory of those who had grown up in my over 4 year old guild. An essay could be written about the ongoing battle of attrition to uber guilds once members reach a suitable level.

Deneldor2
08-11-2003, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. Large number of servers brought online post Kunark (the reference has traditionally distinguished between the era before any of the add-ons).
2. The number of Iksar, Vah Shir and Frog characters in the large raiding guilds.
3. Personal knowledge of who used to be in the uber guilds on my server and how few of them are present today.
4. My memory of those who had grown up in my over 4 year old guild. An essay could be written about the ongoing battle of attrition to uber guilds once members reach a suitable level[/quote]

Numbers 1,2 and 3 mean absolutely nothing as they could be peoples 10th level 65 character for all you know. We have a frog shaman who has 2 level 65 alts in the guild, guess he must be a post-kunark noob!!

Number 4 is very revealing though. :)

FyyrLuStorm
08-11-2003, 10:38 AM
Number 4 is very revealing though.

Absolutely it is, the fact that people have been dancing around(avoiding) that point in all these discussions is even more so.

Demasia
08-11-2003, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You are just another person from a non-high end guild trying to convince yourself that somehow yours is the noble path and gives you some kind of wisdom.

To be as frank as you were, thats complete garbage. The "overwhelming majority" of high end players that I come into contact with (probably over 500) have been around forever, seen it all and more importantly done it all, have you?[/quote]
Actually, I never mentioned anything about "noble" or "wisdom" and find it telling that you brought them up. No need for you to feel shame for having a conscience though.

Well, I doubt you have seen it all nor done it all because I think it is clear by the way my post ruffled your feathers that you weren't around then. You see it doesn't matter how much is given to you on a silver platter because of the strength of the guild you are in, you will never know the joy of having been a part of the exploration and discovery in EQ. You are staking a claim here that is typical of the arguements by those who feel more deserving because of the guild they are in. In truth though, no I haven't seen the elemental planes and I am fairly miffed that so many noobs do because they are willing to suffer the boredom or actually enjoy raiding. But you haven't done it all nor seen it all either because of the path you have taken (it is a much different game without the uber gear or access to the spells for your level).

My post was not an attack on you or anyone, but you were offended by it because you fear losing the rewards of being in a big guild. Because I know you aren't more worthy or deserving of rewards with less time and risk invested is not a reason for you to be angry with me.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I can asssure you that NOBODY EVER gets into a high end raiding guild without proving their knowledge of the game.[/quote]
1. LOL
2. The uberites were aguing that they are more deserving of their rewards because of time invested, not because of their knowledge of the game. Besides, there is no correlation between knowledge of the game and being in a uber guild any more than it is to being "casual" (just as there is no relationship between grouping skills and which guild someone is or isn't in).
3. LOL. I can't believe you said that so emphatically. Thank you.

DigginsEQ
08-11-2003, 11:19 AM
>>>Number 4 is very revealing though.

>>>Absolutely it is, the fact that people have been >>>dancing around(avoiding) that point in all these >>>discussions is even more so.

Mid-level guilds have been used by people as stepping stones to the higher tier guilds for years in EQ if that's what you're talking about. I don't see what's wrong with that. Some people start out as casual players and end up with the time and desire to experience the high end game that their current guild can't deliver.

It's shocking I know given all the anti-uber sentiment that goes on around here. :p

Demasia
08-11-2003, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Numbers 1,2 and 3 mean absolutely nothing as they could be peoples 10th level 65 character for all you know. We have a frog shaman who has 2 level 65 alts in the guild, guess he must be a post-kunark noob!![/quote]
You make this so easy. Thanks for taking the bait.

No, his frog shaman is not more deserving than Beth Casual's main who has hundreds of days played because he is in a guild that allows him access. This is at the core of the disparity. Because Bob Uber has access to lewtz and zones that others do not because of the guild he is in, you think all of his alts deserve to enjoy those same rewards BUT argue that "casuals" do not put in as much time as ubers.

For the record, my chanter is a post-Kunark noob but it doesn't make me all misty eyed and combative as it does with you. You don't like it that "casuals" know you are noob do you?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Number 4 is very revealing though.[/quote]
Reveals what? That I started a guild that is one of the oldest and largest guilds in EQ and it thrived for over 4 years? That characters who leveled up in my guild were appreciated for their skills? That after closing recruiting and merging into another guild last month, it still has over 185 members?

Like you, raidflation came to EQ long after my guild. I realize you were trying to be cute again. You really should learn that "cutesy" doesn't work after high school. If you want to argue the issues, then argue the issues. If you want continue with the irrelevant flaming, then private mail me and we can cus each other out without it detracting from a valid discussion.

Gimli fan
08-11-2003, 11:44 AM
My original intent, or opinion was the following:

This expansion and its allocation of resources were slated for conceise 1 - 2 hr "casual" play session (stated), single group dungeon crawls (stated), and instancing [tm - haha] (stated). With the addition of raids this...

*takes away time, resources, and pixles from the ORIGinally intended expansion...*

which had to be proposed for a reason (see the casual players that b*/whine about their problems...I am thinking it was to address them).


Now this new technology is going to be much more widespread

*...thus less robustly tested, and with more (im)balance issues.*

If they had a sack they would have held off on adding the raid content and perhaps promised it after the launch of the technology for single groups. I would challange the assertion that it is the "casuals greed" that wants to keep more raiding content from getting into the game. Rather I would love for raiders to get an entire expansion all to themselves well tested and inter-balanced. Sony has proven IMHO their inability to multi-task, and inter-balance different classes never mind play styles. The shoe on the other foot would have "ubers" waiting their (percieved) ultimate raiding expansion and learing that any single group could go through the content, and one
would guess get the best loot. Ok? So think about that when you sit back and accuse. (I am thinking of a few classes that came to the druids board during balance to mock, and how they now are waiting for their balance.) So imagine how you would enjoy losing a total guess of ~ 1000 person hours of planning/coding/ and testing from your expansion? Instead we both pay full price for half the benefit.

This is why IMHO, they have corrupt LDoN. Their vision was diverted.

I leave the overall consequences to public debate, personally it means no incentive for me to re-up and dust off my 100+ days played Druid. Until after the expansion comes out and I get reports in. It is likely that at that time I will purchase and give it a go, I hope its a blast. Far cry from re-upping now and getting pumped for it in game.

I have major doubts about there ability to make a good go of it now.

Palarran
08-11-2003, 11:50 AM
Do you seriously believe that anyone who started in the Kunark era 3 years ago is a "noob"?

Demasia
08-11-2003, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Mid-level guilds have been used by people as stepping stones to the higher tier guilds for years in EQ if that's what you're talking about. [/quote]
While it is true that some people use others as stepping stones, there was only the 3 uber guilds on our server for people to move up to until PoP and the explosion of large raiding guilds. Because people are willing to use those guilds tht way doesn't make the guilds and thier loyal members willing participants.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't see what's wrong with that.[/quote]
I don't either if you destroy the epic and other quality gear that the guild you leave earned for you. Or better yet, let them know in advance so they don't waste their <strong>time</strong> on you.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Some people start out as casual players and end up with the time and desire to experience the high end game that their current guild can't deliver.[/quote]
I think you mean they end up with the levels, epic and gear, then want more than their current guild can deliver. Or as it was in reality, with PoP people wanted access that their current guild wasn't able to deliver. Can't say I have ever heard "I find myself with more time" in the reasons that people join uber guilds.

Palarran
08-11-2003, 12:04 PM
What about the individual's contribution to the guild during that time? Does that mean nothing?

Sure there are people who join midlevel guilds for the sole purpose of gearing up to join a high level guild, but I don't think it's all that common.

Deneldor2
08-11-2003, 12:05 PM
Demasia.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think it is clear by the way my post ruffled your feathers that you weren't around then[/quote]

Hehe, sure I wasnt. My first character, a warrior, was 50 when Kunark came out and in the guild Valhallas Chosen under a barb shaman named Droid, I know there are some old Eci's here who will remember him. I was in Fear before the level cap and was on the first bunch of Vox and Naggy raids on the server done by anyone other than the top guild.

The difference between us is I've been in both raiding and non-raiding guilds and you clearly haven't. Hence my balanced view of both and your bitter misinformed view of one.

DigginsEQ
08-11-2003, 12:15 PM
>>> I don't either if you destroy the epic and other >>>quality gear that the guild you leave earned for you. >>>Or better yet, let them know in advance so they >>>don't waste their time on you.

Are you saying that the players who have that gear when they leave for another guild played no part in obtaining it for themselves? I don't think so. Also, you are discounting the time and help that player contributed to gearing/leveling up fellow guild members while he or she was there. No sane guild I ever heard of would suffer a do nothing freeloader in the ranks for long.

>>>I think you mean they end up with the levels, epic >>>and gear, then want more than their current guild >>>can deliver. Or as it was in reality, with PoP people >>>wanted access that their current guild wasn't able >>>to deliver. Can't say I have ever heard "I find myself >>>with more time" in the reasons that people join uber >>>guilds.

/shrug. That's just the way it is. If you want to see the high end game and are an experienced raider with the time to invest in it, often your only choice is to join up with a more advanced guild if your current one can't hack it due to time constraints or flaky members.

Demasia
08-11-2003, 12:15 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Do you seriously believe that anyone who started in the Kunark era 3 years ago is a "noob"?[/quote]
I said earlier that it is all relative. I am 36 years old, my sister is 40 and my brother is 38; yet my parents still call us the kids. To my parents and their experiences, I am a kid even though they recognize that I am an adult with children of my own.

However for clarity in this discussion, the reference is to characters created after Kunark. The relevance was directly in response to the common uberite arguement that has long gone unchallenged that they are more deserving of the rewards because they put in the <strong>time</strong>. My point was to debunk that myth because it is a fact that there are a large number of characters in uber guilds with uber rewards who have far less <strong>time</strong> invested than a large number of "casuals" who have played since release and play as many if not more hours than those ubers. Once and for all, the <strong>time</strong> arguement needs to leave the table because it is a lie.

FyyrLuStorm
08-11-2003, 12:19 PM
Revealing, not shocking. And continues to be so.

Palarran
08-11-2003, 12:25 PM
Well, I'd agree that /played time and time passed since character creation are irrelevant. The point is the time and effort put into advancement, in terms of levels/AA's/gear/zone access; NOT total time and effort. Rewards only come from things that you specifically work towards. If one person spends time working on tradeskills, and another person spends time fighting mobs, should the two people be equally effective in combat?

Demasia
08-11-2003, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The difference between us is I've been in both raiding and non-raiding guilds and you clearly haven't. Hence my balanced view of both and your bitter misinformed view of one.[/quote]

I have raided then decided I was burned out on raiding periodically. I prefer grouping over raiding to enjoy the game.

At which point have I presented a "misinformed" view of guilds? Please be specific.

BricSummerthorne
08-11-2003, 12:53 PM
<strong>No sane guild I ever heard of would suffer a do nothing freeloader in the ranks for long.</strong>

It's not usually that cut and dried.

You're a small guild, trying to build a raid force. You've got a Warrior, he's a good, motivated player. You're going to gear him up, first. You're not going after Necro gear, or Druid gear, your guild is focused on getting a solid MT. When he leaves, it's a setback.

He's no freeloader, but he's benefiting from being the guild's focus. When you're small, you HAVE to focus, it takes weeks/months to gear up one person, and one person can make a huge difference. A couple months in Umbral (for Moktor) can make the difference between VS being hard, and VS being "haha".

Deneldor2
08-11-2003, 01:04 PM
Is this specific enough..

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Bluntly stated, an overwhelming majority of the ubers are post Kunark noobs who wanted the uber guild phat lewtz[/quote]

Short term memory problems?

Demasia
08-11-2003, 05:20 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Short term memory problems?[/quote]
No. In fact, I am correct in that assesment.

Sannen
08-11-2003, 05:57 PM
Deneldor2 - your the kind of jackass that has wrecked my gameplay more times than i could count. die please.

DigginsEQ
08-11-2003, 06:19 PM
>>>Deneldor2 - your the kind of jackass that has wrecked my gameplay more times than i could count. die please.

That was certainly enlightening feedback. Chill out before you burst an artery or something.

FyyrLuStorm
08-11-2003, 06:26 PM
Sannen,

I will repeat the forum rules for you again...

<em>Rants, arguments, discussions. Very low moderation, but one rule still applies - <strong>no attacks on a Personal Level</strong> or spam! Edit Function in this forum Removed so make sure you mean what you say!!</em>

Demasia
08-12-2003, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I was in Fear before the level cap and was on the first bunch of Vox and Naggy raids on the server done by anyone other than the top guild.

The difference between us is I've been in both raiding and non-raiding guilds and you clearly haven't. Hence my balanced view of both and your bitter misinformed view of one.[/quote]
Between feeding the baby and few busines calls yesterday aftenoon, I didn't give your reply the attention it deserves and I apologize for that.

I'm not sure what you are claiming with regards to Fear since it was actually a level minimum of 46 that was added to prevent all of the low levels who could contribute nothing from going in and looting the left overs. Also, inherent in having founded one of the oldest guilds is that there were NO raiding guilds at that the time. So, I have also been in a guild that was and wasn't a raiding guild. My experience was just in the same guild where you differ by having moved from one guild to another.

That addressed, I remind you that the arguement I was originally disputing was that ubers deserve the rewards because the myth of their greater time commitment. You have said a lot since then, but your problem seems to be more with me calling a noob a noob. At least that has been the focus of your rhetoric.

The game just recently experienced very significant changes that more aptly rewards grouping and reducing the benefits of soloing to bring those two play styles' rewards into parity (my personal opinion that risks were taken out of that equation isn't relevant to their intent). It is time that the third play style, raiding, also be brought into parity with the rewards of grouping. There is no logical explanation why the rewards for raiding are unattainable by grouping, let alone out of proportion. It was simply a decision that someone made a few years ago and the trend continued and escalated to the point where it is now that a 20 day wonder can be completely outfitted in elemental gear that the developers have stated will never be seen by most of the players in the game.

Someone further argued that it isn't just the time commitment, but also the focus that made ubers and large raiding guild members more deserving of the phat lewtz. I'm sorry, but that is also a ridiculous claim. Betty Casual can be 100% focused on improving her gear for 200 days played, but ends up with inferior gear to the 30 day frog shaman because she remains loyal to her friends and old guild (at least she makes the decision to stay with them because of her judgement of what loyalty is). Meanwhile Buffy Uber creates another alt, gets the alt back flagged and in a fraction of Betty's focus and time invested that alt is uber equipped and enjoys access that Betty does not.

I believe this would be much less of injustice is the doors to the elemental planes were one way, but they are swinging doors that allow the 30 day wonders and other junior players to then compete with more senior but less well equipped characters for named spawns, minis and the better exp camps. My first inclination was that I have too many friends in the uber guilds who I would miss dearly should they be forever locked out from our non-elemental reality. Pondering it further, I never actually see them anymore and only talk to them via tells anyway.

Before Luclin, the difference between raiding gear and what could be acquired with a strong group was rather insignificant and hence below tha radar. Now, it is obnoxious how disparate the difference is between the equipment that can only be acquired by a large raiding guild and that available to those who are not in guilds, those who remain with their old friends and guild and those who simply prefer to group rather than raid. It isn't time commitment, focus or skill that places the loot so disproportionately and even access locked to large raiding guilds. It was a conscience decision by Verant and later Sony (the latter went overboard) to distribute rewards in this inequitable manner and now it is Sony who needs to address this as aggressively as they have in balancing the rewards for solo vs grouping.

I am not so misinformed as you stated. The truth is that Betty Casual can spend 100 hours to every 1 hour you do focused on improving gear, but you end up with the prized lewtz and she ends up with Bazaar purchased booby prizes. The truth is that the alt frog shaman do not deserve better gear than Betty who leveled up pre Kunark without ports, rezzes, stones, Clarity or hit point buffs better than Skin like Steel or Valor. The truth is that 1000 hours grouping and focused on gear should result in proportional rewards to 1000 hours raiding.

Feel free to continue avoiding the actual discussion and attack points that make you personally defensive. For me, this isn't about you and I am not responsible for your internal struggles. This is a game that we all pay to play and there is no birth rights nor is there an aristocracy. The current system of rewards result in a class system where rewards are unrelated to risks, time, skill or focus. You like it this way and I do not.

Lyria Whisperwind
08-12-2003, 02:45 PM
"Do you seriously believe that anyone who started in the Kunark era 3 years ago is a "noob"?"

I consider anyone who was not capped at 50th for at least 3 months before Kunark came out to be a "noob". Actually, sorry, I never call people noobs, so let's just say I consider anyone who has not been playing that long as being a "younger player with less experience" :) .

Deneldor2
08-13-2003, 12:31 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Deneldor2 - your the kind of jackass that has wrecked my gameplay more times than i could count. die please[/quote]

Well at least when I finally quit I can leave knowing I did something worthwhile. :)

Delheru
08-13-2003, 01:50 AM
Interesting...

So Alyssaa blames Sony for making a game where people enjoy themselves the "wrong" way. It's interesting that you know the best way for everyone to play the game.

I'm the first one to admit that doing the exploring is the most fun part of the game, and I've been happy to been pretty much the first person to poke my nose anywhere in RN for the last 3 years... So what's wrong with people that actually want to experience that now? There are a lot of people who aren't quite "RP" enough to ignore all the info that is out there and explore on their own. So they read a few sites and suddenly they knew everything up to the elemental planes. How do you get the joy of exploring? Well, by getting in the guild that plunges first in to Plane of Time of course.... hence the issue.

One thing though Alyssaa, and I really hope you read this. In some ways I agree with you, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Or rather, you're fighting the wrong windmill. The biggest problem in my opinion is the huge spread of information mostly over the net and in game methods. It's downright near impossible to avoid. There's no real magic in what your spells do, or what a trap does to you, because you can just go to lucy to check what it does (as much as I use lucy, I dislike what it does to the game). If you want a new weapon, you go to allakhazams or join auction or serverwide.yourclass and ask. Then you will get feedback ranging from what is fitting for you to the obscenely powerful, because that's just what you asked for essentially. So everyone sees that mithril bracers suck, and fbss has just way too little haste since there's Umbral earring and blahblahblah. Too much information I say. If all the information sites a la Allakhazam, EQAtlas, Lucy etc could be erased and the channels (as convenient as they are) removed, I bet a lot of the magic of the game would return. Alas, that's pretty much undoable now and we're stuck with the high end net community that you participate in yourself.

As for high end guilds being full of noobs. I dunno, maybe that depends on the high end guild, but I can assure you, the top ones usually have so many people to choose from that the only way a newbie gets in is by playing 20 hours a day and being a cleric... and we're removing one person like that right now because she simply isn't good enough. If it's like that for clerics, want to try getting in as any other class? Hell just last time we opened applications we got 14 enchanters applying, and (barely) took one. I can assure that any sign of newbieness got you cut instantly.


Oh and for the people saying that new high end content isn't necessary, and wouldn't hurt since a lot of people still haven't seen end game PoP, do you realize what you're saying? If LDoN allows for any real increases in power (more AA for example), my guild will be getting insanely powerful. And without proper new raid content to die to, we will also be pretty bored. So I imagine we'd get everyone that can wield it a BoW for example. We can already kill RZ with 40ish np, if that number sinks to 24-30, it'll be trivial to keep it down until our maybe 25 people have it (10 war+7 pal+4 sk+4 rng). Now don't you think that might somewhat disrupt guilds wanting to see the elemental planes? Of course we'd farm PoTime too, and bored people would do elemental armor droppers with 2-3 groups to gear up twinks or maybe RL friends or whatnot. With our power just increasing all the time, we'd be a horrible menace even raiding "casually" in PoP. Either you get us to retire or you get us other content, because otherwise the progression of guilds will pretty much freeze.

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Demasia
08-13-2003, 05:35 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We can already kill RZ with 40ish np, if that number sinks to 24-30, it'll be trivial to keep it down until our maybe 25 people have it (10 war+7 pal+4 sk+4 rng). Now don't you think that might somewhat disrupt guilds wanting to see the elemental planes? Of course we'd farm PoTime too, and bored people would do elemental armor droppers with 2-3 groups to gear up twinks or maybe RL friends or whatnot. With our power just increasing all the time, we'd be a horrible menace even raiding "casually" in PoP. Either you get us to retire or you get us other content, because otherwise the progression of guilds will pretty much freeze.[/quote]

I agree. It should be a one way door for those large raiding guilds that are equipping in gear ridiculously beyond those who are not in those guilds. Farm it to your hearts' content. I could care less if you lewt a 2000 hit point ring so long as it poofed should ever return to this side of the elemental planes. I hope they add 6 zones accessed only through PoTime that offers a plethora of raiding opportunites for you. I also hope they are itemize them as well as PoV so we can see once and for all if it was the phat lewtz or the love of raid and challenge that fills your guild's roster.

Short of locking you all in a PoTime and beyond path and throwing away the key or tagging your gear to permanently poof if ever outside the elemental planes (instead of "No Rent" add a tag like "Time Path Only" or "Fantasy Only"), we can hope that LDoN will correct the unjust reward imbalance between raiding and grouping.

As for your testimony assuring us that there are no "noobs" in the elemental planes, do you think we all just fell off the turnip truck? I can't speak for most folks, but I'm sure that many agree with me that your alts are NOOBS, all frogs are NOOBS, Vah Shir are NOOBS and compared to many of us Iksar are NOOBS. And the wizard being botted for two weeks when that player hasn't even logged on hardly qualifies as hours upon hours of raiding for the gear she eventually logs on to see she "earned". We also play the game. We aren't blind. We remember the ubers before they were ubers, we remember buffing them with SoW because SoE wouldn't stick, we remember helping them get their epics, we remember hunting with many of their mains and we remember seeing them get pushed through the Trial of Execution.

I think we also view exploration differently. To me, it isn't exploring to zone in and turn left because you know from another guild that is the way to go. PoTime was explored one time and it will be "beaten" only one time. Farm it if you like, but lets be real and not call it exploring.

This reward system is flawed! You can try to justify it and be defensive about it, but it has become so ridiculously obvious that Sony will HAVE to make a choice. They will either balance the reward system between grouping and raiding to avoid further alienating the majority of it's customers or continue pandering to and lavishly rewarding the large raiding guilds. I don't blame you for trying to protect the sweet deal you have right now. Although I do enjoy the catch 22 you face in these discussions; you want your side heard but in doing so you help keep the discussion going. I will continue pointing out the myths and lies that perpetuate this flawed system and I hope you continue debating the reasons you are more deserving.

Delheru
08-13-2003, 06:44 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I could care less if you lewt a 2000 hit point ring so long as it poofed should ever return to this side of the elemental planes.[/quote]

Do you think we actually want to do old content? We sometimes do it for nostalgys sake, but we are pretty much exclusively in PoTime for raids and elem planes for grinding. However you WILL want to come there eventually if you can, and locking us in there will just guarantee you'll have a lot of company when you eventually reach there...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>we can hope that LDoN will correct the unjust reward imbalance between raiding and grouping.[/quote]

Seriously if raiding is so @#%$ easy, take a few days and get the raiding rewards. I will go get the hardest 6man rewards possible in my ToV time gear. Lets see who gets their stuff done first.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As for your testimony assuring us that there are no "noobs" in the elemental planes, do you think we all just fell off the turnip truck?[/quote]

I quite pointedly did not say that. I said there are no newbies in the -top- guilds. There's some rather sad trash in elem planes already, and like half of the #4 and #5 guilds members apply to us every time we open apps and we just don't let them in. You referring to age as being critical is bit so so. We have some players who have admittedly started relatively late, but they tend to be extremely good players to have gotten in.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think we also view exploration differently. To me, it isn't exploring to zone in and turn left because you know from another guild that is the way to go. PoTime was explored one time and it will be "beaten" only one time. Farm it if you like, but lets be real and not call it exploring.[/quote]

Haha. You just put me way over yourself. I view it in a harsher light than you do. _YOU_ have never explored anything in this game. I have been there before you, and I will never believe you haven't heard any sort of rumors of those places when you go there. I didn't say we explore PoTime every time, I said there was absolutely no other way to explore new content when guilds were in elementals (POTIME NOT CLEARED BY ANYONE) except by joining the guild that was likely to hit PoTime first.

Like you said, this stuff gets explored just one time. If you weren't raiding with me on RN you have not:
explored Sebilis
found Trakanon
explored Howling Stones
explored VP
explored Kael
explored Velketors
explored ToV
explored Sirens Grotto
explored Sleepers Tomb
explored Dragon Necropolis
found the Dain War etc
explored Sanctus Seru
explored Ssra Temple
explored The Deep
explored Akheva
explored Vex Thal
explored ANY of the planes except the original ones that were open

The list is pretty long. Frankly nobody has done any exploring on RN for 2 years other than my guild according to your definition (only first people there really explore). Wouldn't this make it logical that anyone wanting to explore would join wish to join us?

I'll grant that mudflation makes the differences in gear rather more massive than they should be, but there's no real way to win here for Verant. If gear doesn't improve drastically, it serves little point... we aren't after gear for @#%$ eqrankings, we want gear so we can beat the next encounter. While a 20hp increase might have been huge back when, moving from 0 to 20hp is quite a bit bigger than moving from 100hp to 120hp, not to mention 200hp to 220hp... If they don't make the new encounters require the old gear, the content simply won't last... people will mow it down right after the expansion has opened.

But can they give the stuff to everyone? Not really, since if it's easy to acquire (hitting lvl 65 and then going with a 6man to some probably trivial as hell encounter), they make their old content 100% obsolete. I thought NToV fuggin owned, yet nobody wants to go there now because they want their stats to be bestest ever... that means they farm ornate and don't go to lame NToV which doesn't give them the fat stuffs!

Jesus you're so loot oriented it makes me sick really. You don't get loot for loots sake, you get loot so you can PROGRESS. You seem to think 6man encounters can be so finely tuned to your gear that there'd be a progression path, while at the same time allowing different composition groups? Give me some of what you're smoking please. If they create progression in those, they will have to make the tougher 6man encounters essentially require a shaman slow, cleric heals and a warrior tank with the equipment from previous 6man encounters. Good luck finding a group as a druid for example. People just work like that. You can NOT allow the 10-15% of people on the top to run out of content simply because the 3% of people behind them are wanting loot.


-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Demasia
08-13-2003, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I said there are no newbies in the -top- guilds. There's some rather sad trash in elem planes already, and like half of the #4 and #5 guilds members apply to us every time we open apps and we just don't let them in.[/quote]
Yes, you said "top" guilds, but we aren't as focused who is the "top" guild as you. This isn't all about you. We are talking about the imbalance between the access and rewards for those in large raiding guilds and those who are not. And since the only access restriction is to the elemental planes and beyond, we even have an issue with what you call "trash" benefitting from a balance flaw as much as we do with you. We lump you and the "trash" together just as you lump us together.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Like you said, this stuff gets explored just one time. If you weren't raiding with me on RN you have not:[/quote]
I'm not on RN. I'm on BB where most of the zones were explored without a raid.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But can they give the stuff to everyone? Not really, since if it's easy to acquire (hitting lvl 65 and then going with a 6man to some probably trivial as hell encounter), they make their old content 100% obsolete.[/quote]
They shouldn't "give" it to anyone and therein lies the problem. They have itemized the rewards for those with raid access and those rewards ARE <strong>used for group content</strong> and WILL BE <strong>used for group content</strong> in the next expansion. The result is that the imbalance in how raids and grouping is rewarded gives those who choose to raid an unjustifiable and illogical advantage when grouping over those who prefer grouping and do so more often.

If you want it so raiding results in rewards designed for raiding, then add raid only buff spells obtainable only in raids and No Drop and fall if not in "raid mode" with 36 or more. In addition to raid specific drops, the distribution of existing drops would also need to drop proportionally for level 65 group content that isn't restricted to access by raid only encounters.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Jesus you're so loot oriented it makes me sick really. You don't get loot for loots sake, you get loot so you can PROGRESS.[/quote]
That coming from you is comical. Just as you progress in raids and your gear eventually renders some raid content to be trivial for you, the same is done in grouping. Only you don't realize that because your raid rewards make the group content trivial for you without any conscience effort on your part. In fact, we spend most of our time developing our characters for the group environment but it is you who is best equipped for grouping even though you spend zero time with such concerns. Not only is it laughable that you have the audacity to call someone else loot oriented, it is ironic that it is in a post where you are arguing to prevent others from having access to the same loot as you. Character development and progression is not an idea monopolized by large raiding guilds, only the means to do so are.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You can NOT allow the 10-15% of people on the top to run out of content simply because the 3% of people behind them are wanting loot.[/quote]
Ok. All of your claims to having superior knowledge are challenged with you supporting these numbers. Otherwise, I can only conclude you are simply adept at BSing. Where did get that data?

Delheru
08-13-2003, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yes, you said "top" guilds, but we aren't as focused who is the "top" guild as you. This isn't all about you. We are talking about the imbalance between the access and rewards for those in large raiding guilds and those who are not. And since the only access restriction is to the elemental planes and beyond, we even have an issue with what you call "trash" benefitting from a balance flaw as much as we do with you. We lump you and the "trash" together just as you lump us together.[/quote]

I grant that your case against some of the people joining the #4 and #5 guilds (which they join basically only for flags so they can apply to us later one) is a relatively solid one. However you'd screw the raiding cores of each of the guilds over pretty bad doing this.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm not on RN. I'm on BB where most of the zones were explored without a raid.[/quote]

Oh many of them were explored without a raid on RN too. My guild just found stuff like Sebilis key quest first. Same with finding the route through Sirens, where everyone just kept dying and dying and dying. We CRd those that tried to get through and like 12 of us got through to explore WW and DN. We also discovered the HS key first.

Maybe your high end guilds just plain suck. We launch ourselves at new content instantly when it comes available, be it for 1, 6, 36, 72 or 144. I don't care, we want to kill everything possible. I have found that around 24 you lose perfect control of the raid and logistics etc become an issue, making the organization a lot harder. However at 48 or so you become a mass more than a compact raid, so that's the raid window I truly prefer... 72 is bit too big. I would also like to say that a good 24man is a lot more interesting than any good 6man I've ever beenin, and there's no feeling of being a part of a mass yet. Unless you're a warrior or a cleric it's highly likely you're the only person representing your class int he whole raid. You really should try a good raid some day. If you were on RN I'd bloody well invite you on one to show you how much fun and challenge they can be.

One problem you have is you just don't see how easy 6man stuff is. It always is, it always will be. There's simply no way to make it really hard while keeping it flexible to different classes... it's quite frankly impossible, which means either we create an encounter where many classes are pretty useless, or we make it trivial for the "right" combo. Raids have the benefit of allowing for a lot more diversity in the combinations. Essentially you'll probably need at least 2 clerics, 1 enc, 1 shaman and a warrior, but other than that you're free to build on it. PoTime 18man trials are a nice example of pretty fun encounters. (though having done them almost 60 times now, it's getting bit repetitive)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not only is it laughable that you have the audacity to call someone else loot oriented, it is ironic that it is in a post where you are arguing to prevent others from having access to the same loot as you.[/quote]

It's because you're not doing as hard encounters, simple as that. Of course the whole zerging issue is a slight problem, as it trivializes content, but PoTime is already a place where the raids are limited (18 in a phase1 "raid", 36 or 18 in a phase2 "raid" and 72 maximum for any of the gods or Quarm), and I think it's doing very good. However it did bloat the skill based guilds to 72, even as it limited the actual zerg guilds to 72 :/ You win some you lose some.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ok. All of your claims to having superior knowledge are challenged with you supporting these numbers. Otherwise, I can only conclude you are simply adept at BSing. Where did get that data? [/quote]

My claims of knowledge were of the in game mechanisms, this is not one, so I have never claimed I had true knowledge. This is just from people online on RN now:

14 lvl 65 bards online:
7 of those in elemental raiding guilds
3 in other Ssra+ raiding guilds
1 very likely applying to a raiding guild (in Ssra and one guilded bard is there too, which implies a raid to me)
1 in PoStorms
1 in HoHA
1 lfg in PoTranq

20 lvl 65 clerics: (cut short of course)
11 in elemental raiding guilds
6 in other Ssra+ raiding guilds
2 in BoT
1 in SolC

Well I'm not gonna spam here too much, but from those you could count that 28 of the 34 were in major raiding guilds. Numbers like that give me basis for the educated guess of raiders outnumbers non-raiding 65s by about 3 to 1 on at least RN. (and yeah I know I picked bit biased classes

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Demasia
08-14-2003, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One problem you have is you just don't see how easy 6man stuff is.[/quote]
Except for a small handful or leaders, raiding is easier. Roles are more focused, multitasking is limited if present at all, rezzes are no concern, buffs are no concern, a singular event is lost in the scope and less consequential (ie a single resist or an LD), no trains (unless Alyster or other cheaters are present), etc..

Assuming you group with your guildies, your exposure to how difficult group encounters can be is not the norm. Just as your guild is equipped such that most raids are trivial to you now and recognize that those raids are not trivial to everyone else, your grouping experiences are subject to the same dynamic. The masses aren't being rezzed in BoT or Tactics because they didn't know to mez, root, taunt or have their defensive skills maxed. Gear makes a difference in how difficult group encounters are too. You raid often and have done so for a long time, so it is in balance that you are equipped to find raids more trivial than those who have done it less. But it is not in balance and makes no sense at all that your gains from raiding makes grouping more trivial for you than those with more experience grouping.

The best experience I have ever gained in the game was in BoT, which isn't exceptional exp. We were plugging along as usual for a pick up group and a group member had to leave and we found an uber guild member as the replacement. Things picked up and our ranger had to leave so the uber member of our group brought in a guildie to replace that person. They were doing the same things that those they replaced had done, but they were able to do it without effort and added benefits like the ranger off tanking. Instead of plugging along from spawn to spawn and sweating the incidentals like resists, we were waiting for respawns and getting away with recklessness that would've been dire to the group as it had been constituted previously. Just by swapping in 2 uber equipped (I would add AA'd but had no means of judging it since both rangers had EQ and AM3) members to our group made a difference that was beyond reason. I can see why some may view grouping as easy. Gear makes a difference.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It's because you're not doing as hard encounters, simple as that.[/quote]
Not using the same numbers either. However you rate or I rate the difficulty of the encounters in relation to the scope of the encounter, there is no proportionality to the risk vs rewards at all. It simply doesn't matter how difficult or easy you, I or anyone view the encounters because the system only rewards raiding as it is. I'm sure you agree that you have done many raids that were trivial for you, but the rewards were there nonetheless.

Delheru
08-14-2003, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Except for a small handful or leaders, raiding is easier.[/quote]

Yea but that's just it, you DO need the leaders. It's like saying single player skills in ice hockey are harder than playing a good defense, in which someone can totally screw up and it won't result in anything too disasterous. I'd say having a good defense requires quite a bit more than having good technical skills with the puck does though..

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Assuming you group with your guildies, your exposure to how difficult group encounters can be is not the norm. [/quote]

Oh I'm quite aware of this. I have 1800ac and 7500hp as a cleric, and can tank things a lot of the warriors in BoT can't. But that's not what I was referring to. The thing with 6man groups is that you can go at it really easily really often, and you can trust everyone to do their tasks a lot more than you can in a raid. This means that if you have a 1 hour encounter, I will probably try it until I win. If I start a bit hung over around noon on a saturday, I mean trying until I succeed quite literally. Or well, I'll prolly want to go sleep before midnight sunday, but until then I'm quite ready to keep pounding away. Do you really think I wouldn't succeed unless it was truly impossible? Whereas with raid encounters you have people online for a limited time etc.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It simply doesn't matter how difficult or easy you, I or anyone view the encounters because the system only rewards raiding as it is.[/quote]

Well there's only a few mandatory raids. Essentially you do NOT need to raid to get high quality loot, but you do need to raid for the flags. While the difference might seem academic, it does mean that you won't have to farm. 3 HoHB trials, Caprim stuffs, Saryrn, Mith Marr, Bertox, BoT tower bosses, Agnarr and RZ. That's 10 raids and you have a lot of content available. Massive ornate drops for a 6man in Sol Ro Tower, trade skill stuff coming out of your ears in the elemental planes etc. At this point it simply doesn't matter that much anymore... why don't you organize some casuals to do the HoHB trials with you during this coming up weekend? I swear it won't take more than 2hours win or lose.

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife