Relative to clerics, that is.

Why? Mostly because of how many hp pc's have now. Most of the warriors in my guild are pushing 11k hp, and the knights are not that far behind. Kinda sucks that our CH ( which was designed to be a 75% cheal) is healing only about 50% of my tanks hp's. And for this we have to spend 200 more mana, yay.

Back when my guild was starting in the elemental planes, using druids as part of a ch rotation was completely reasonable. Now, not so much.

Not that I expect sony to do anything about this.
-hs

All relative. Consider that before CH (SoL era), you would be hard pressed to heal half a yellow of a level 60 end game warrior's hitpoints. Consider that a cleric can only heal 75% of a level 65 end game tank's hps (that's a pally tank ... end game warriors book 12khp). There is no such thing as complete heal anymore. Cleric or otherwise.

KR still heals at something in the order of 9:1. That's one hell of a good ratio. I actually prefer the extra margin of KR. I target my heals hitting at around the 45% mark. Considering spike damage from ripostes, it's a LOT better than a cleric trying to target a heal landing at 30%.

The heals are alright, but as for a priest class, we don't entirely fit the description :D


I don't have a problem with them really until the situations get a little bit stressful. In AE fights or bad pulls, your mana pool can go down quickly trying to keep everyone in the group alive.

If they could tweak Nature's Infusion for mana cost a little (not too much), or give us something of a group Chloroblast, I'd be in my happy place.

There is no such thing as complete heal anymore. Cleric or otherwise.


Bingo! We have a winner....:)

Fix for this: let HG/AHG effect TR and KR

Fix for this: let HG/AHG effect TR and KR

Oh I sooo wish.

HG is an easy fix.

Now that we're looking at 10K+ tanks, I'd say the mana cost on KR ought to come down. CH is really a 7500 pt heal, and KR is two-thirds of that. It really doesn't make sense in today's environment for KR to ALSO cost 50% more than CH.

If KR had a 7500 cap, then the greatly increased mana cost makes sense. Alternatively, keep the current cap, but reduce the cost to match CH. Either way, clerics would continue to have the definite advantage.

Or let HG effect it...seems way to easy a fix for SOE and still doesn't interfere with cleric's "we're number one!"-ness in the healing realm...

i really dont think HG is the answer.... its just not enough. Maybe if both healing gift AND improved healing items affected it, it might be close to fair. But as is, its kinda pathetic, my guild just got to elementals the other day and i got my first group in poearth. Our tank had 9k hp upwards, and with ft5, mask of the stalker, pot9, and mc1, i could only stand about 5 fights before having to med. A cleric would have had no trouble at all and probly could have nuked on top of that.

I really cannot imagine that soe wants clerics to be the only viable healers for exp groups, and while i think we are quite fine up to tier 3, tier 4 it really starts to show how inefficient our heals are. I mean anything above 1k damage, out most efficient way to heal it is TR, which is just not right. Compared to supernal remedy (i think thats the cleric 2k quick heal, correct me if im wrong pan) NI is just pathetic. Granted when i got NI i LOVED it, same with KR, but the inefficiency is really starting to show its age... and im even alt specced.

What to do about it? not really sure to tell the truth, without clerics throwing a fit. If they were to change KR to maybe max 66% hps and no hard hp limit, would it be balanced? 600 mana is still alot more than a clerics 400, and it would easily allow us to CH any tank above 33% hp. TR could be left as is i suppose.

I also would think a quick HoT would be in order, something around maybe 300 mana for 1.5 k over time? something to top off people in your group without having to use NI or TR. would be especially useful on raids.

Don't get me wrong on this... i hate healing heh, but due to the lack of clerics on in my guild lately in both raids and exp groups, ive been having to do it quite a bit.

We heal good enough.

If I wanted to be a healer all the time I wouldnt have made a druid I'd have made a cleric.

If anything Id complain our nukes arnt good enough....but I wont because I think their fine too.

Atm only single thing druids need is some ability to reduce agro.


Tils

I don't see us falling behind in healing anymore. I find that I can heal in most cases very well. The few cases where I find I am not good enough are on fast heals. On healing big tanks we do pretty well. Yes, KR uses 50% more mana than clerics and HG doesn't work with it, but, HA and AHA DOES work with it. With AHA3 druids are healling pretty close to 6K.

I mean anything above 1k damage, out most efficient way to heal it is TR, which is just not right. Compared to supernal remedy (i think thats the cleric 2k quick heal, correct me if im wrong pan) NI is just pathetic. Granted when i got NI i LOVED it, same with KR, but the inefficiency is really starting to show its age... and im even alt specced.

While "technically" TR may be more efficient on anything over 1K than NI, the efficiency improvement isn't really high enough to use it more than NI. NI may cost 500 mana vs TR's 400, but, with my gear and AA I consistanly heal 2.3K. In addition, With Preservation of Xegony, I have a 15% mana cost reduction on NI that Percent heals do not get. So, I can take 10 seconds and 400 mana to cast TR or I can take 3.75 seconds and 425 mana (after focus) The extra speed that NI gives more than outwieghs the extra 25mana in most situations. Plus NI does get a shot at critting. =)

The point is that druids are needed to heal. There are not enough clerics for the job. And so if we have to do the job, we need the tools to do so. KR should heal more like 6k than the current 4.7 and the mana cost should be 500, not 600.

This would still give clerics the better CH, never mind they have something like five other better than druid heals as well. Plus rez. Hopefully with all that they will not whine too much if druids were given an improved KR.

This is Not a flame ...

I am curious what a druid with FT5, MC1 is doing in Elemental Planes healing to begin with. You were healing with TR instead of KR? You didn't have VoQ and SD on? Amazing ...

Originally posted by Scirocco
Either way, clerics would continue to have the definite advantage.
Isn't that the point though? Since clerics are basically CH/res machines, they should be <i>much</i> better in both. Paladins are already too close in the res category. Right now cleric CH is potentially 60% more effective (excluding the healing gift issue) and potentially 250% more efficient than druid CH. That sounds about right to me when you compare, say, cleric nukes (generalist) to wizard nukes (specialist).

This way, a druid doesn't have trouble healing in most XP groups, but can't replace the cleric specialist while at the same time offering a lot of damage and utility.

Well, it is true that FT 5 and MC 1 is kind of underpowered for a druid in the elemental planes. I'm surprised that you could heal as long as you did without having to med, in fact.

If you're more typically equipped (and I mean typically for an EP druid), then healing for a group in the EP in many places is not a problem. The real problem is at the true high end where tanks have over 10K hp, and a CH is really a capped 7500 hp partial heal. The cost of KR in relation to the amount being healed is punitive.

Simple solution? Increase the base cap on KR to 6500. Nothing else changes (except HG, of course!).




...but can't replace the cleric specialist while at the same time offering a lot of damage and utility.


Just to be sure: you are advocating that clerics be irreplaceable for circumstances beyond the basic XP group in the easier parts of the EP?

Thanks for the percentages, by the way. They just drive home the point of how vastly superior CH still is. Remember the old 50-and-under game, and how druids got the same heal spells as clerics, just a few levels later and at a slight (5%) mana cost disadvantage?

With AHA3 druids are healling pretty close to 6K.

Actually, ~5.5k is more accurate.

Originally posted by Corvalis
This is Not a flame ...

I am curious what a druid with FT5, MC1 is doing in Elemental Planes healing to begin with. You were healing with TR instead of KR? You didn't have VoQ and SD on? Amazing ...

i started my druid last december at christmas break.

at current i have around 70 AAs.

i joined a guild that was just on the verge of doing VT and tier 2 bosses and witnessed the first kills for everything up to rz excluding grummus and saryn.

before this guild i was in well... bazaar quality loot.

and also as i had stated, we JUST entered elementals. at the time maybe 20 people of my guild were actually elementally flagged, and thus obviously none in elemental armor. in earth i was healing with KR.

also i meant if oh say... a monk, is at 75%, ill heal with TR if possible.

my magelo is.... not working atm, will post later =)

In most EXP groups I think our heals are fine. I can heal PoE exp groups with relative ease, as long as aggro is controlled, and this is as only healer, no shaman/pally/cleric.

On raids however, I run out of mana on certain mobs when im doing backup/non-MA healing, so fast that its rediculous.

A group heal would kickass, or making a spell such as Natures Touch (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=1291&source=Live) have a lowered mana cost and Faster cast time to fit more in line with other heals. (EG, make it a 3.8 second cast, healin for 978, costing 300 mana) That would be much more effective than healing with NI to cover the 500-1k AE's.

Now...onto the matter of a group heal, what do you guys think would be reasonable, and do you mean a group HoT?

I think we heal fine.

I just want that our healing aa's work on our % heals and SCS, or some kind of Jolt type spell.

Tubby

Originally posted by princess0fdiabl0
Our tank had 9k hp upwards, and with ft5, mask of the stalker, pot9, and mc1, i could only stand about 5 fights before having to med. A cleric would have had no trouble at all and probly could have nuked on top of that.
I agree with Tils and some other posters - if I wanted to be a full time healer, I would have started a cleric; but then we all know that.

Anyway, I'm not surprised a druid would have a hard time being the primary healer in a group where the MT is a warrior in the elemental plans if that druid is not fabulously equipped and buffed. Warriors don't heal themselves, they don't life tap, they don't stun, they don't proc heals, etc. like pallies and sk's do. You could have changed the MT in that group to a pally or SK and been nuking away while tossing in an occ. heal.

You might also think about a horse/lizard. I know, no ducking, but sure helps with no aggro medding...

heh thought pretty much every druid in a raiding guild in pop would have a horse by then... as i did, forgot to mention that.

my magelo is http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=708238

We are fine atm with healing. The 50% of whatever rule on CH doesn't bother me since I ch them at 50% or so and I heal them full hp like 99% of the time. ( they are time geared also ) I don't see anything we need to inprove on CH and etc.. Clerics are designed healers and their heals need to be better than everyone else. Is the fact of the game :p

Well I wouldnt say we are fine. Some tweaks are appropriate.

KR should not be 600 mana. Make it 400. Leave TR at 400 as well. I mean, we levelled up and got the higher spell, why should we still be using TR at all?

Healing AA's should apply to our percent heals.

NI should be a half second faster, or alternately, give all priests a Quick Healing AA skill to apply to all non-CH type heals over 2 seconds. Or as suggested, change Nature's Touch to be faster than NI, but a smaller amount. As it is there is no point at all to this spell.

SotW needs to have its refresh lowered to 15 mins to match beastlord and cleric aa's.

Thats about all though.

KR/TR woudl be fine if they added HG - I feel HG should be applied.

No need to tweak them if HG was applied- IMO

NI depends on your gear - (focus effects/Spells)

Quick Healing AA would be nice - though I would have to think abit more on how this would be applied - (just a thought) Random decrease in spell cast time based on a percent like Crits ? that would be sorta cool, Though I would not want CH's to have this.

SoTW I agree on the 15 mins - Its basically saved for MGB during raids; 15 mins would probably entitle me to more use. As for the AC/DS Mod determining that its 22 mins - heh

I say we are pretty fine too, just give us some form of hate lowering spell, make SoTW 15 mins and possibly make HG work with oure iCheals or in the least give a statement why HG is deemed not acceptable for druids.

good points by all I think, and I agree with the sotw 15 min issue and the HG for our percentage heals as well, otherwise I feel very confident in our abilities as a class

and as for the being underequipped for getting into elemental planes hehe, I'd say ft5 is pretty much the norm for most of the casters in my alliance of 3 medium sized family guilds although some of us have probably up to ft10...but it's rare to see ft15 among us I'm pretty sure (yay run-on sentences sorry i'm too tired to punctuate but you can read it I'm sure) and we've never even seen emperor ssra (and hence VT gear) but we just womped good old rallos a couple times and we're in elementals now with I'd say only fair gear (we still all wet our pants over FT gear and stuff with more than 100 hp/mana /gasp)

hehe just thought i'd comment on the gear, doesn't take VT equip to get there anymore, just some determination and cooperation =)

Kendali Thistlewood
Storm Warden of Tunare

The 600 mana cost to KR is way out of line considering how little it heals, how many hitpoints people are reaching nowdays, and that druids have no aggro control other than just standing around or dying ;p. As suggested by others, all that really needs to be done is lower mana cost of KR to 500 or 400 mana, let HG work on it (0 good reason why it doesnt), and lower reuse time on SoTW to 15 minutes. That would take care of the majority of our problems other than aggro. As for aggro, how about giving all priests spell casting subtletly AA, and for druids get rid of the worthless Wrath of WIld AA and turn it into a jolt AA with the same re-use time.

Good maybe they will give us better nukes. Tired of playing cleric anyway.

Originally posted by Corvalis
This is Not a flame ...

I am curious what a druid with FT5, MC1 is doing in Elemental Planes healing to begin with. You were healing with TR instead of KR? You didn't have VoQ and SD on? Amazing ...

I was an RZ and Sol Ro flag away from elementals when I quit. I think I had FT 6 and MC1. I wasn't going to have more FT nor another MC before I entered elementals. I'm sure I would have been healing in there.

But who knows.

Quick Healing AA - Presumably a clone of Quick Damage - a 3/6/9 Class AA reducing the cast time of our heals by 2/5/10 %. I like the idea. Given that fully functional KR/TR would cast on 9 seconds rather than 10, I don't see a reason to restrict it from those spells.

HG - Yeah, been saying this for a very long time. Wish enough folks had agrred with me way back then and it might have made it into the letter that we sent to SoE (that they followed nearly exactly even though they said they had to ignore it).

KR - 600 is too much. Though I can inversly agree with Sciraco instead - keep it at 600 mana but up the Healing Cap.

SotW - This AA is great. One of our best, if not our best, in PoP. None the less it is complete crap comapred to CR and Paragon. 15 mins sure would be nice, but it would still be crap when compared to Paragon and CR. 8 minutes would bring it in line with Paragon and CR. Or 15 mins refresh with an increase in its base duration to 8 ticks. Those complaining about it really need to be more upset, or ultimately it is going to end up at 15 mins and you'll all be thanking SoE for an ability that still sucks when compared to Paragon and CR.

As a cleric I find that I really dont use CH all that often any more. On raids or xp groups where large amounts of healing are required I find myself using SL much more often because I don't want to be tied up to casting a spell for 10 seconds.

The main time I use CH is on normal difficulty LDoN missions with very well equipped tanks. And then since I'm only healing 2 or 3 times over the whole mission the actual amount of mana I use healing becomes pretty insignificant. Most missions I can't dump mana fast enough anyhow so I finish up the mission with about 100% mana. On raids it just never gets a look in (outside CH chains).

The other time I use CH is in the few groups where I really get pushed hard enough that I need to try and maximise my efficiency. And if a druid can replace an extremely well equipped cleric who is healing to the max, then something wouldn't be right.

Originally posted by Scirocco
you are advocating that clerics be irreplaceable for circumstances beyond the basic XP group in the easier parts of the EP?
Of course not. I'm advocating that there be a <i>marked difference</i> between cleric and druid heal power, such that druids and clerics aren't fungible in terms of heals. I'm talking at least 50%, not something trivial like 5-10%. In situations where healing is critical, there should be some serious incentive to get a cleric over a druid -- even if the druid could somehow manage.
Originally posted by Scirocco
Remember the old 50-and-under game, and how druids got the same heal spells as clerics, just a few levels later and at a slight (5%) mana cost disadvantage?
In the level 50 days, the cleric's Superior Healing was over 100% more effective than my Greater Healing, and was 30% more efficient. A fully buffed tank had up to 3000 hit points, so CH was over 500% more effective (in terms of healing over time) and over 400% more efficient than my heal.

Back then, I couldn't credibly claim that I had half the healing power of a cleric, and few accepted the notion of a druid as primary healer in a group. Kunark was even more laughable, I was barely a quarter of a cleric. Today, I can credibly claim that I am 2/3 of a cleric in terms of healing, and well-accepted as a primary healer in many situations -- not bad considering all of the other powerful druid abilities at my disposal.
Originally posted by Tubben
I just want that our healing aa's work on our % heals
Healing Adept <i>does</i> work with percentage heals, bringing Karana's Renewal to a 5569-point heal.

The only issue is Healing Gift. While it would be fun to make it work with the percentage heals, it would hardly make a real difference in the druid's healing power. You can't rely on critical heals, they're just nifty bonuses that might sometimes help you but will often do nothing more than make you look good.

Hmm wouldn't clerics get HG, Quick heal aas and etc.. as well if we get them ? Since they are suppose to be the best healer in game. Their class is based on it =p Though I do agree with the sotw change. Bring it down to 15 minutes thx.

Over the long run, where you are casting a lot of the heal in question, HG does pay off.



Hmm wouldn't clerics get HG, Quick heal aas and etc.. as well if we get them ?


I believe that they should...and would. You may have overlooked the fact that HG does affect the cleric CH already, which simply highlights the fact that it doesn't affect TR and KR.

A crit CH of 15,000 didn't really matter until recently. And since HP will continue to go up, the difference will matter more and more.

We do NOT heal "Just Fine"
We heal just fine, about as much as warriors hold agro "Just Fine"


The real problem with out heals, is KR costing 600 Mana.
I've been saying this for months on this board, but it's ridiculous increase in cost.

There are so so many ways to see this.

1) Efficiency Gain in Druid Spells 61+ Spells vs 60 or lower

KR: 4750/600 Mana = 7.91
TR: 2950/400 Mana = 7.375
its a 7.2% Increase in Efficency
((if it was 4750/400 mana = 11.875 = 61% Increase
((if it was 4750/500 Mana = 9.5 = 28.8% Increase))


WF: 1024 Damane/320 Mana = 3.2
SF: 1400/355 = 3.943
its a 23.2% Increase in Efficiency

NI: 1750/500 = 3.5
Nature Touch: 978/400 = 2.445
its a 43% increase in Efficency

SD: 1680/350 = 4.8
WD: 1430/350 = 4.08
its a 17.5% increase in Efficiency

Simply put the Increase in KR compared to its earlier version of a spell is WAY WAY underpowered compared to any other spell we have 61+ compared to the spell it replaced. While I haven't done the research, I am willing to bet that other classes likewise ALL thier 61+ spells gained a greater efficiency increase than 7.2%

My arguement just looking at the numbers of ALL spells 61+
KR should be lowered to 500 mana at least.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2ndly: Comparing Clerics vs Druids start with this question:

In Healing on a raid: Who would be better healer
Druid with Max AAs, Plane of Time Gear
vs
Cleric with 20 AAs, Bazaar Level Gear

IN DPS on a raid:
Rogue with 20 AAs and Bazaar Level Gear
vs
Paladin with Max AA's, Plane of Time Gear

IN Nuking on a Raid
Wizard with 20 AAs, Bazaar Level Gear
vs
Chanter with Max AA's, Plane of Time Gear

In Off Tanking on a Raid
Ranger/Bst Max AAs with Plane of Time Gear
vs
Paladin/SK with 20 AAs Bazaar Gear

In only, one case is the answer the 20 AA char with Bazaar level gear..... Yeah, the druid.

If your Chain Healing as a Druid, you are 100% fooling yourself
if you think, you are more valuable to maintaining a chain than a PLed Cleric.

Let's Do Some Math:
Spirtual Dominion (9) Bard Song (21) VOQ (18) Nine (8) = 46 Mana
Now since: KR is 600 Mana Compared to CH 400, that means you have to subtract the Druids Mana Regen by 1/3, and thier mana pool by 1/3 ((Or Boost the clerics by 50%))

So the 65 Plane of Time Uber Druid goes from
46 (Buffs) + MC3 + Standing65 (3)+FT15 + Mask(4) = 71 = now take away 1/3 of the mana regen and your 47 Mana.

Notice that this is LESS, then the Cleric gets just from Buffs + Normal Mana Regen (49). a FT15, MC3, Mask of Forest druid
is equal to a cleric with with NEGATIVE 2 FT on a raid. Throw in a horse and it bounces to 89 Druid = 59 Cleric and that uber druid is equal to a cleric with NEGATIVE 12 FT.

Likewise, the 6k MP = 4K MP for a cleric.

This is simply far far too much of a difference. at 500 Mana
the numbers run to remove 20% ((or boost cleric 25%)) which changed the above to 71 MR Druid = 56.8 MR Cleric or
FT15 MC3 Druid 6K MP Druid = 8 FT MC0 Cleric 4800 MP.

Still a big difference, but a hell of a lot more reasonable compared
to balance in tanking, and dps.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grouping this imbalance is likewise pretty large.
Assume your doing XP, so you run to buy a kei and that is it except for self buffs for mana regen.

Druid: 8 (nine) + 14 Kei + FT15 + Mask4 + Standing3(Horse 21)
Druid: 44 (72)

again if your xping and using CHs. Divide by 1/3
Cleric: 29.3 say 30 (48) now subtract 25 for buffs standing (43) from horse. And your looking at FT5 MC0 Cleric as equivelent
of a FT15 MC3 Druid. Its simply too large a gap even here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW: the above comparisons dividing by 1/3 actually UNDERSTATES the difference in Healing Power. Because it assumes there is no Difference in KR vs CH. Thats not true
as KR is 4750 heal, and CH a 7500 Heal.

Against the Highest DPS Raid mobs this difference just furthers the gap. XPing this difference in Efficiency likewise increases the gap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't mind Clerics being better healers than druids.
They should be. They have more healing tools. ((a superfast 1.5 Second Heal, Heal over Times)) They should also have More Efficiency.

However, when the top druid in the game is a less efficient healer
than a cleric you can build in the bazaar. That is too much a difference. ((and im not talking that expensive a profile either. no gear over 50k.))

This inequity doesn't exist in any other phase of the game.
Not in Tanking Ability. Not in DPS. Just here in healing.

This really is the one of two issues, where we could use a major developer fix.

I didn't read all posts in this thread, but I'll share my opinion anyway ;)

Druids aren't meant to be main healers.

Complete Healing are 7500 HP healed.
Karana's Renewal are 4680 HP, or 75% of max. HP, wichever is lowest.
From what I understand then HA, HG, AHA, AHG affects clerics Complete Healing, but they do not affect Karana's Renewal?
I Our "complete heal" cost twice what a clerics does, in mana.
I think that our healing AA's should affect our "complete heals" just as they affect the clerics complete heals. It will never be up to par with a clerics anyway, so the clerics doesn't really lose anything.

Group Heals, druids severely lack at least 1 decent group heal. Hell, when it comes to healing the group paladins outheal druids by a longshot. Not even using very much mana in the process.
I don't want group heals on level with a clerics, but do want a group heal that is on level with a paladins. A paladin is a tank, not a healer, yet they outheals a druid.

You can't take one aspect of a spell and compare just that. Hell ever at level 16 enchanter's mez spells get progressively LESS mez time per mana point used. So as an enchanter I lost mez effeciency and your complaining that your gain wasn't big enough? Compare the complete spell.

Originally posted by Scirocco
I believe that they should...and would. You may have overlooked the fact that HG does affect the cleric CH already, which simply highlights the fact that it doesn't affect TR and KR.



My normal CH heals for 9k damage. So in order to gain any benefit from a crit, the tank :
(i) needs to have over 9k hp, plus
(ii) needs to be damaged for 9k+ damage, plus
(iii) needs to take between 9k damage and maxhp damage before the next heal lands, plus
(iv) I have to hit that 16 % chance to crit.

So how often does this happen? Well lets just say its not very often. So feel free to take away HG/AHG from working on the cleric CH. Not like I will notice at all.

I suspect the main reason for HG and AHG not working for druid CHs is that it would be difficult to code in the 75% heal part and ensure that a critted heal wouldnt exceed that limit. Spending limited programmer time on this issue wouldnt seem very worthwhile to me.


Originally posted by Scirocco
A crit CH of 15,000 didn't really matter until recently. And since HP will continue to go up, the difference will matter more and more.

Well perhaps, but who knows what will happen with the next expansion and hp go up. I'm sure there will be new healing spells for druids and clerics when it does. Using your ideas of future content as an argument for changes to current content seems ridiculous.

So feel free to take away HG/AHG from working on the cleric CH. Not like I will notice at all.

Always nice to see Clerics in action. They'd rather have nerfs to themselves than buffs to Druids. Why am I not suprised?

I suspect the main reason for HG and AHG not working for druid CHs is that it would be difficult to code in the 75% heal part and ensure that a critted heal wouldnt exceed that limit.I'm not sure about everyone else, but I would expect a crit to exceed the 75%.

For example, 4k tank, max heal on iCH would be 3k. If I crit, I would expect a 6k heal.

That's just my expectation. To have a crit still limited to 75% would defeat the purpose, imo.

Wyte

HA exceeds the 75% cap. HG should too.

All debates aside, I still think SOE owes us an official answer. Is HG intended to work on percentage heals?

Right now our HG AA description is something like: "Gives a change to heal an exceptional amount" (paraphrased). It should say "except for percentage heals" if they are excluded. To me a percentage heal is a heal just like any other heal and is included in the description as working with HG!

We can't infer from Lucy what their intent is either, unlike focus items where we can clearly see iCH and CH are excluded.

I would like an answer personally, even if it's "Yeah, we're aware of it, but we don't know how to make it work technically". Or "Yeah, we should change the desciption of the AA, sorry".

Dengit, how hard is that? We can fight over it afterwards, but how about an answer, please?

Wyte

The AAs ignore the 75% caps. No reason why HG can't ignore the cap, the same way HA ignores the cap.



Well perhaps, but who knows what will happen with the next expansion and hp go up. I'm sure there will be new healing spells for druids and clerics when it does. Using your ideas of future content as an argument for changes to current content seems ridiculous.


Not thinking ahead is even more ridiculous. Moreover, you miss the point that we are talking about CURRENT content with tanks above 10K+. As stated above by a cleric, the true power of CH is that it's a 9K+ heal, which makes the deficiency of KR even more obvious.


I also have to shake my head at the claims that druids should not be primary healers (and remember that I, myself, am an evoc druid with a natural antipathy to healing). Clerics should not be the only primary healers in the game. Period.

For better or worse, the current game design has it so that druids are the next class best set up to be "primary healer." So druids have to have the tools to be primary healers, plain and simple. And druids have been able to act as primary healers for a bit now (but as noted above, are not able to act effectively as primary healers in the top end circumstances described...which is why the proposed changes I discuss are aimed at those circumstances, and would not effectively change things at a lower level).

Should druids be as efficient as clerics? No.
Should druids be as good at healing as clerics? No.
Should a cleric be the best healer in the game? Yes.

Nothing I proposed above would change that.


BTW, with regard to the next expansion, I think an idea solution for the "Big Heal" is to steal a page from the first year of the game: druid's get the cleric's last heal spell, while clerics get the next one up the chain. Thus, druids would get the 7500 heal (the no-longer-complete Complete Heal) that clerics now have, while clerics would get a new big heal in the 10K base range. Druids and clerics with full AAs and focus effects would kick those numbers up to 9K and 12K (based on what was said above).

Of course, HPs may go even higher, necessitating even larger Big Heals.

All debates aside, I still think SOE owes us an official answer. Is HG intended to work on percentage heals?


SOE already has given the official answer. HG not working on PHs is NOT an oversight.

Which is why our arguments on having HG apply to PHs are not based on correcting a bug, but instead are trying to change SOE's mind.

SOE already has given the official answer. HG not working on PHs is NOT an oversight.Do you have a quote by an SOE rep, or a source I can look up?

If it is so, then they should change the AA description, IMO.

Thanks,
Wyte

Thus, druids would get the 7500 heal (the no-longer-complete Complete Heal) that clerics now have, while clerics would get a new big heal in the 10K base range.

It was clerics having the Big 10K base range heal that caused so many balancing issues in the first place. It would be silly to reintroduce it after Sony finally limited it. 10K CH is one of the reasons exp mobs hit for 800+ and boss mobs hit for 2 and 3K AND have procs. It's also one of the reasons Mobs have outrageous Hit points. My personal experience from Botting a friends cleric as a main healer and using me as a main healer in Earth groups shows me that I'm only slightly less capable on keeping up. They only problems I have are when I need a fast heal. It's the only problem I have consistantly run into.

I personally don't mind that HG doesn't work with our Percent heals. I also believe that if they were to change it, they would need to make it inline with Complete heal, meaning HA would probably no work with it. HA is far far far more useful than HG.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tudamorf
[B]Of course not. I'm advocating that there be a <i>marked difference</i> between cleric and druid heal power, such that druids and clerics aren't fungible in terms of heals. I'm talking at least 50%, not something trivial like 5-10%. In situations where healing is critical, there should be some serious incentive to get a cleric over a druid -- even if the druid could somehow manage.


Just renoticed this quote...

My question is why?

In no other part of the game, is the "Most Efficient" class better than the "2nd best class" by 50%.

Slows:
75% to 70% = Efficiency Difference of (20%)
Hell the "Best" Slow 75% to the Worse Slower Bard 50%
is efficiency edge 50%

Tanks:
Plate Classes do NOT have 50% more HPS then chain/leather classes.

I see 11k Plates, 9K chains. again about (20% Difference)

And thats Assuming you actually allow 3 Plate Classes a "tie"
for top spot. If your talking Warrior as the supposed top tank
Warriors do not have 50% more hps then Plates. They have 3%ish at the end.

DPS: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?postid=52309#post52309

Rogues are the masters of DPS. at 179.75
where the top dual wielding monk comes in at 149.4
Again Approximately (20%)

Burst DPS.
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3896
Wizard: 313 DPS, Magician 268 DPS (16.7%)
Wizard: 210 DPS, Magician 188 DPS (11.7%)

Cleric Top Heal: 33% Less Mana, Heals 57.8% More
Efficiency: CH 18.75 vs KR 7.91 = 137% More Efficient

Now, please enlighten me where in healing only should the #1
class be 50% more effective then the #2 class. Where in every other facet of the game, this tops off at 10 to 20%ish.

No other place in the entire game, does the #1 class have over a 10 to 20% efficiency edge, yet clerics have 137%ish efficiency edge in Healing.

Broken: Yes

well the main problem i see is this:

we got a "CH" that costs 600 mana. okay i can deal with that, we are not a cleric so its feasible that we should have to pay 50% more to heal.

but when you add in the fact that we heal ~ 36% LESS, its not right.

We pay 50% more mana to heal 36% less, and thats not right.

Kinda reminds me of when they did something to monks.... nerfed mitigation and something else, one or the other is fair, but both is absolutely bs.

Using that same ratio, if druids were supposed to heal for 7500, we would have to pay 950 mana which is quite rediculous. It essentially makes us 42% of a cleric in terms of CH, which for the supposed second best healer in the game makes no sense.

And as to the people saying we need better nukes... maybe. But we should stay in line with mages, as we are now, altho i do feel the disparity between wizards and druids/mages atm is kind of high.

Originally posted by Teaenea
My personal experience from Botting a friends cleric as a main healer and using me as a main healer in Earth groups shows me that I'm only slightly less capable on keeping up. They only problems I have are when I need a fast heal. It's the only problem I have consistantly run into.


Wow, your feelings vary extremely with mine in POE.
I took one of our guilds cleric "bots" no where near as nicely equipped as a heavy raiding druid like me. Ground out some AAs for a few the bot needed.

At the time were talking 4500 MP, Mana Regen of 8 + Horse Cleric vs 5500 Mana Regen 24 + Horse Druid, And I saw the kill rate go up 20% or so.

Considering my huge advantage in gear, I didnt expect this result.
We were keeping roughly the same number of spawns down with this cleric WITHOUT KEI, as I was with the druid + kei

Would I mind, if the kill rate went up replacing a druid with a cleric
of equal gearing? Not at all. But replacing a druid with a vastly inferior geared cleric and seeing kill rate go up is just wrong.

I also believe that if they were to change it, they would need to make it inline with Complete heal, meaning HA would probably no work with it. HA is far far far more useful than HG.

HA and HG both work with CH.

Originally posted by Aelia
Relative to clerics, that is.

Why? Mostly because of how many hp pc's have now. Most of the warriors in my guild are pushing 11k hp, and the knights are not that far behind. Kinda sucks that our CH ( which was designed to be a 75% cheal) is healing only about 50% of my tanks hp's. And for this we have to spend 200 more mana, yay.

Back when my guild was starting in the elemental planes, using druids as part of a ch rotation was completely reasonable. Now, not so much.

Not that I expect sony to do anything about this.
-hs Well, first....
"relative to clerics" druids are NOT supposed to be equal in healing power. If we were then SOE would have LONG ago added better spells for us. As it is, druid healing is slow, clumsy and mana intensive. I don't mind dealing with what we have now, but I wish that there were some AAs that could speed our heal casting, lower our mana cost or turn a low level heal into a group heal or something.

The 75% "CH" was not designed as a 75% heal but a "not to exceed" 75%. I have not had any problems with this at all, and we have pallies and SKs over 10k HPs, so you know our warriors are HP fat! With healing foci for faster cast time and improved heals I rarely if ever cast KR now. I patch with almost 100% NI on raids. Another interesting fact.. we use pallies for patch healing as much as we do druids these days.

And as for those of you who gripe about not being able to fall into a CH rotation now.... CH rotations are CRAZY BORING and are the reason many many cleric characters have been retired for everything but rezzing twinks. Yeah it's nice to feel needed when they put you in the CH rotation. It's nice to be able to fill in some when the clerics don't show... but do you REALLY want to be pigeonholed into a prime healer position for the rest of your EQ? I have a hard enough time knowing that my raid function is primarily patch healing, especially because I know what else druids CAN do... but I also like the flexibility for soloing and grouping of the other roles I can fill outside of raids.

Please don't compare our healing to clerics. I don't EVER want to be considered a prime healer. If I did, I would pull out a cleric alt and play her. And if you feel you are not being an asset to your raids, maybe you should get some friends to help you PLevel a cleric. PLeveling isn't that tough these days and it will give you that sense of purpose that you seem to be lacking as a druid. I LOVE playing my druid. Please don't change her purpose.

[i]
Please don't compare our healing to clerics. I don't EVER want to be considered a prime healer. If I did, I would pull out a cleric alt and play her. And if you feel you are not being an asset to your raids, maybe you should get some friends to help you PLevel a cleric. PLeveling isn't that tough these days and it will give you that sense of purpose that you seem to be lacking as a druid. I LOVE playing my druid. Please don't change her purpose. [/B]

**borrowed from Dilbert**
**Must restrain fist of death**

Okay, this is the most self-absorbed post in the whole world.

Hate to tell you this. But if they fixed druid healing, doesn't mean you PERSONALLY would have to focus on healing more. or become more of a PRIMARY healer.

Just say "No thanks" and run your druid the way you do currently.

you don't want to be in a chain... again the magic word is "No"

Your whole post translates to "Please don't up/fix druid healing
because then people will want me to heal more, and I don't want to and I don't want to deal with the 'peer pressure'."

So because you don't want 'peer pressure' other druids who want to heal more effectively, shouldnt.

PS: no one in this post said druids aren't assets to raids.
I've personally made the connection that cleric with vastly inferior gear would still be a bigger asset. But that is not the same statement at all.

PSS: its even harder to restrain the Fist of Death when you hear
BS like "if you don't like it, PL yourself a cleric" gee why balance Monks/Warriors right now. After all, they all could just quit and make pal/sks. Doesn't matter that people put YEARS of time, thousands of hours into a char, but its so so simple. Throw it all away and play the "better" classes instead of fixing the broken ones.

Wow-

Where to start.

And as to the people saying we need better nukes... maybe. But we should stay in line with mages, as we are now, altho i do feel the disparity between wizards and druids/mages atm is kind of high.

I don't know that I can agree really. Mages crit higher than me only when they are using their bolt spell which is very situational. Wizards main advantage that I can see is their cast times, as most of their non-bolt spells are also similar in crit range. 3.4k crits or around there are completely acceptable to me. I think we are doing fairly well in this area. But maybe I'm wrong :)

Quick Healing AA - Presumably a clone of Quick Damage - a 3/6/9 Class AA reducing the cast time of our heals by 2/5/10 %. I like the idea. Given that fully functional KR/TR would cast on 9 seconds rather than 10, I don't see a reason to restrict it from those spells.

I love the ability, but if it worked on KR/TR I'd flip. It would completely make it impossible to sub a druid in a CH chain. The advantage of CH and TR/KR is that they have the same casting time, no matter the gear set. Therefore, can be timed in a rotation.

And as for those of you who gripe about not being able to fall into a CH rotation now.... CH rotations are CRAZY BORING and are the reason many many cleric characters have been retired for everything but rezzing twinks. Yeah it's nice to feel needed when they put you in the CH rotation. It's nice to be able to fill in some when the clerics don't show... but do you REALLY want to be pigeonholed into a prime healer position for the rest of your EQ? I have a hard enough time knowing that my raid function is primarily patch healing, especially because I know what else druids CAN do... but I also like the flexibility for soloing and grouping of the other roles I can fill outside of raids.

Nevermind that we may be doing what we like to do and that is help our guild progress. You don't want to do a CH rot, fine, but don't come down on the rest of us who like to succeed and fill in where necessary. Noone will ever make me chain if I don't want to, but there is ZERO reason that I shouldn't be able to.

Please don't compare our healing to clerics. I don't EVER want to be considered a prime healer. If I did, I would pull out a cleric alt and play her. And if you feel you are not being an asset to your raids, maybe you should get some friends to help you PLevel a cleric. PLeveling isn't that tough these days and it will give you that sense of purpose that you seem to be lacking as a druid. I LOVE playing my druid. Please don't change her purpose.

And who should we compare it to? They are the best and therefore, they set the standard. You can love to play your druid however you want, but let me love to play mine how I want. I could as easily say to you, if you want to nuke, PL a wizard. If you want to DoT, PL a necro. If you want to buff/debuff, PL a shammy. So that argument is null.

Healing Gift works on complete heal because complete heal is a direct 7500hp heal.

Druid/shaman heals are percentage based and require math before landing. As in, the server looks at your tank's max hitpoints before applying KR's max possible heal.

At least that's why I believe SOE isn't willing to change HG to work with KR. Now it may be easy to just put some code in to HG so that it will affect the max heal of KR. Of course, it may be hard. Just depends on how they initially coded HG.

I'm leaning towards easy and they won't break anything by re-coding HG to work with iCH. Well, they might break bards, but that's a given.

Do I want for them to change HG? Well ... I don't really care. It has been stated that crit heals don't really do anything as far as consistent heals are concerned. A cleric isn't going to cast CH to land at 1% hoping to get a HG crit and heal the 12khp warrior to full. A cleric will assume that his CH is going to heal 9000 hps and cast appropriatly.

I honestly have trouble understanding why some people are pushing so hard for HG to work with iCH.

I suppose it's like killshot nukes. Some people cast a 1550 nuke to land when a mob is at 100hps so that everyone knows who's the daddy. It doesn't matter they just used 390 mana for 100 damage. They got the killshot!

Having HG work on iCH is the same deal. No druid is going to cast iCH for 11khp heals. They try to land iCH to heal 5600hp while hoping for for that 11khp crit that shows up on everyone's chat for the oooh's and ahhh's. But even if it SAYS that you performed and exceptional heal (11232), you only really healed for ~5600. But of course, you have bragging rights...

Soandso performs an exceptional heal! (11232)

/t tank_01 Who's your daddy?

/r Huh? cleric_03 with the 18000 crit is my daddy

/r doh!

We are not primary healers, we can do alot of things like nuke, charm, ports etc.. Lots of stuff other classes like cleric don't get. If we are in level with clerics in healing. What should clerics get then? We are fine atm. Yes our CH cost 200 more mana and healing for 30 something % less. That's cause Clerics are meant to be better it. You can't compare a general class to a class that is focused on healing and nothing else. Cause if you do it that way, the general class always lack something. just imo anyways.

Having HG work on iCH is the same deal. No druid is going to cast iCH for 11khp heals. They try to land iCH to heal 5600hp while hoping for for that 11khp crit that shows up on everyone's chat for the oooh's and ahhh's. But even if it SAYS that you performed and exceptional heal (11232), you only really healed for ~5600. But of course, you have bragging rights...

Actually, no, I want it because I crit heals 1/6 or thereabout. I can't tell you how many times spikey damage has happened while I was in the chain, and KR didn't fill up the tank. If even once a week it did it's job fully, I'd be happy, and it would be helpful. Plan for it? No.. but it would be nice on occassion.

We are not primary healers, we can do alot of things like nuke, charm, ports etc.. Lots of stuff other classes like cleric don't get. If we are in level with clerics in healing. What should clerics get then? We are fine atm. Yes our CH cost 200 more mana and healing for 30 something % less. That's cause Clerics are meant to be better it. You can't compare a general class to a class that is focused on healing and nothing else. Cause if you do it that way, the general class always lack something. just imo anyways.

What you are missing is the disparity is too great. corlathist showed that fairly well I think. NOONE wants to heal as well as clerics.. ever. We just want to not be double taxed as healers. Either make it a smaller heal OR make it cost more mana. Not both.

That said, I survive in a CH chain pretty well, even ones like the Xegony chain, but it is unbalanced and with all the clerics retiring these days, it's not possible for clerics to be the ONLY possible raid chain healer. Unless of course you want to have an army of cleric bots.

Originally posted by corlathist
Your whole post translates to "Please don't up/fix druid healing
because then people will want me to heal more, and I don't want to and I don't want to deal with the 'peer pressure'." No. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Please don't. To synopsize, my post says that I don't believe that VI or SoE ever intended for druids to be primary healers any more than they meant for shamen or pallies to be. I LIKE my class and if I WANTED to be a primary healer for the BIG stuff (ie a hard LDoN, raids or a "press to the wall" group) I would be playing a cleric.

Self serving? You BET it is! I have been playing a druid as my main character since May of 2000 when I started EQ with 298 days played on her. I don't move from one class to the next depending on which has the current advantage in the game.Doesn't matter that people put YEARS of time, thousands of hours into a char, but its so so simple. Throw it all away and play the "better" classes instead of fixing the broken ones.I am one of those who HAS done this and I have NEVER played my druid as THE primary healer for "all occasions" and I've never WANTED to.

After all, they all could just quit and make pal/sks. Doesn't matter that people put YEARS of time, thousands of hours into a char, but its so so simple. Throw it all away and play the "better" classes instead of fixing the broken ones. Not "better classes" DIFFERENT classes. If I wanted to be the BEST healer, I would make a cleric. If I wanted to be the game's BEST slower, I would make a shaman (not a BST or BRD even tho they possess this ability, too). If I wanted to be a hard nuker, I would make a wizzie (again, not a mage, druid or enchanter.. tho they, too possess DD spells). Basically if you want to be EQUAL to the BEST, then you have to make a character of that class. You don't make a ranger or a rogue and then whine because you can't tank as well as a warrior.

The whole reason warriors are complaining, and rightfully so, is that they are out tanked AND out taunted by hybrid classes in raids and the hard LDoNs and they were designed to be the primary TANKS in EQ. There are some classes that have "specialty" skills from which the other classes draw. A warrior is a HEAVY tank, a cleric is a HEAVY healer. Hybrids have a mix of talents and none are ever equal to the main purpose of another class.

Not "better classes" DIFFERENT classes. If I wanted to be the BEST healer, I would make a cleric. If I wanted to be the game's BEST slower, I would make a shaman (not a BST or BRD even tho they possess this ability, too). If I wanted to be a hard nuker, I would make a wizzie (again, not a mage, druid or enchanter.. tho they, too possess DD spells). Basically if you want to be EQUAL to the BEST, then you have to make a character of that class. You don't make a ranger or a rogue and then whine because you can't tank as well as a warrior.

For the love of God, if I hear this load of crap one more time, I'll spew my lunch all over my keyboard. WHEN has ANYONE on this board EVER suggested that we heal EQUAL to clerics?? Quote me the line, and then show me the support for it. We aren't asking for 7500 hp CH for 400 mana, a 1200 hp group heal (that removes poison and disease counters), a group HoT, a low mana cost single target HoT, a 1.5 second 2000 hp quick heal, a HUGE version of our NI spell. We want an AA ability that reads that it should work to work. Why is that SO hard to comprehend for so many people? And maybe, if possible, to also lower the retarded mana cost of a spell that is still a baby version of a level 39 cleric spell. 150% cost of CH, and 2000 less hit points, 25 levels later is a bit much.

Having HG work on iCH is the same deal. No druid is going to cast iCH for 11khp heals. They try to land iCH to heal 5600hp while hoping for for that 11khp crit that shows up on everyone's chat for the oooh's and ahhh's. But even if it SAYS that you performed and exceptional heal (11232), you only really healed for ~5600. But of course, you have bragging rights...


Not the same deal at all. Many times when I have used KR on a tank, there are 1000 to 2000 pts left unhealed. A crit KR would at least fill in the open space.

If HG resulted in my KR filling in that gap 1 time out of 10, it would be worth it...in the short run and the long run.



P.S. I can't believe I'm even arguing for better druid healing...bleh...:P

A P.S. since I can't edit my post above...

But in the end, I don't really NEED to argue with you that druids were never meant to be the games best healer because SOE will never make us that anyway.

P.S. I can't believe I'm even arguing for better druid healing...bleh...:P

This quote will burn forever in the minds of the Grovers who know you, you shall never live this down ! *wink*

Most CH type spells land on me around 20-50%, so 35% on average, with 0 and 70% being Outliiers

I raid buff to around 10k (9750) so that means on average I need 6500 to be healed

I dont know where druid iCH max's on average for experience but someone said 5.5k so I'll run with that number...

5.5k/6.5 is an 85% Heal...

Yes if I'm healed at 0% then it will only be around a 55% heal, but then again if i'm healed at 50% its gunna be a 100% heal.

From a tank perspective I still think druid/cleric healing is fairly well balanced for XP groups, I like druid heals on most everything XP wise, even LDoN Hard, and do quite fine iwth them, ya clerics heal me a bit better, but druids do "other stuff" TM

If another exspanation comes out, then ya druids should Definatly get a better heal type spell, but ATM from a tank perspective i Think its pretty well balanced..

Regarding Healing in Elemental PLanes, when you first break planes and healing, its very sloppy, the damage is already fairly spikey to begin with, and your tanks arnt really well equipped for it, but once you get A) Better tanks/AA B) Better Healing Equipment/AA and C) More Experience, healing in Elemental planes (XP wise) becomes pretty damn easy. I've done earth with a shaman healing, and give me a druid any day of the week and i'll do fine.

Madrone- You are a paladin, of course druids do fine with you. Pallies have everything we lack. A VERY quick heal, group heals, rez, and they can stun and self-HoT to help mitigate incoming unslowed damage. That is hardly a fair judge as to whether or not a druid is where it should be. Look at the numbers again and tell me that they are correct.

I've done earth with a shaman healing, and give me a druid any day of the week and i'll do fine.

Actually, I wouldn't include POE-a in the top end at all. Hell, last time it was me, a paladin, and a shaman with a pet, and we did just fine. I was the primary healer, AND the puller, AND did lots of nuking as well. Wheeee!

Of course, that's with a paladin in a group. With a paladin, I can pretty much ignore half or more of my healing responsibilities. Or put another way, with a paladin as MT, I am effectively twice the healer I am with a warrior MT. That's why my favorite MTs are paladins (they also hold aggro so much better, of course). I swear warrior MTs have a mana drain spell that affects every druid that attempts to heal them...:P

Getting back to relative difficulty of the zones, LDON Hard is harder than POE-a, IMO. Portions of the EPs no longer are what I would consider the "high end game." And probably haven't been for a while.

If you're a tank below 10K (that includes tanks at 9750), then druid healing is probably still relatively fine. If you're a paladin with more than 6K hp, druid healing is definitely still fine. Remember the original premise. If true tank HPs were capped at 10K, we probably wouldn't be needing to have this discussion.

Hell, last time it was me, a paladin, and a shaman with a pet, and we did just fine.Sounds like a kickass group - all capable of throwing heals, plus the best slow.

Also, I don't mean to prod ( /prod prod ), but do you recall where you heard the 'official' answer stating HG is not intended to work with % heals?

Wyte

Yep, all level 65 with all PoP spells, each with hundreds of AAs (I'm capped at 576, and the paladin, who was the third twink of a guildmate, had over 600). A paladin, druid, and shaman make an awesome trio.


Also, I don't mean to prod ( /prod prod ), but do you recall where you heard the 'official' answer stating HG is not intended to work with % heals?

Yes. It was a direct response from the Dev Team in the context of a board discussion on whether HG was working properly....:)

Point taken Stormlin, Paladins do complement druids quite well in healing department....

My main point tho is that I dont think (Although I could be wrong!) That when someone consider the healling effeciency and maximum, they are not aiming at 0%, they arnt trying to heal all 10k or 11k HP, they are trying to heal around 2/3 of that, because they are going to want to play it safe, and account for the low, but very real chance of a damage spike, or lag or somethingBad (TM) From happening. However Yes I am more familar with tanks around 10k, not 11k.

And agian I reiterate (sp) the fact that if another expsnation comes out - there definately needs to be a better heal for druids.

Scirocco I wasnt saying PoE was high end tanking, (XP Wise), but it was in reference to comments about druids healing in PoE on this thread...

Personally I think 2nd castle of Fire, Regrua Caves, and LDoN hard are the harder XP areas, and consider PoE to be rather tame for tanking given 10kish 2k ACish tanks, but, once again I wasnt refering to what I think was high end - but what people in the thread were posting on, which was PoE.

Mardone-

BTW, bud, I meant no offense :) Your opinion is valid when talking about a paladin tank, but even with a 1-2k hp more warrior, they are like mana seives in comparison to a well equipt paladin.

I never ever pick a paladin over a warrior in my guild, because I hate classism, but it's the simple tanking truth in today's game that a paladin will need FAR less healing than an equally equipt warrior.

There, maybe I explained myself a bit better :)

heheh.

I was in a lock down group for High Priest in SSra last week.

Me, 3 pallys 1sk, and 1 shaman to slow.

Did all the lock down, and i think i casted 1 healing spell the entire time. Rest of the time, the Pallies, group heals did the work.

I was rather impressed to say the least.

Druids seriously lack a groupheal
Taking a 6 person group as an example.
9 out of 10 times, when you need to heal the group, it's approx. 1000 HP heals each member needs, top.

Druid needs to heal the group will take:
6*500=3000 mana, and 10500 HP healed total.

Paladin needs to heal the group will take:
1*850=850 mana, and 5400 HP healed total.

Paladin heals with a ratio of 6.35 HP per Mana.
Druid heals with a ratio of 3.5 HP per Mana.

The paladin is a tank class, the druid is a priest class, yet the paladin outheals and outrezzes the druid.
I honestly don't care about paladins being able to rez, I don't want to be able to rez. I do however want a group heal, it can't be true that a tank class heals their group so much better than a priest class.

I had this diskussion with a druid friend of mine some time ago, and that friend then came with the argument that we had our Spirit of the Wood as group heal, wich is an AA and manafree. Paladins have Hand of Piety AA that heals for the same amount of damage (1250).

On every AE fight I have been in, druids are allways required to keep their druid alive as well as the rampage tank and / or main tank.

Bottomline, I don't want to be outhealed by a tank. Neither do I want the tank to be stripped of this healing power, but I do want druids to get a damn group heal that has at least as good a ratio as the paladins group heals. I would even be so bold as to say it should be better, we are after all a priest class, where the paladins are a tank class.

I had this diskussion with a druid friend of mine some time ago, and that friend then came with the argument that we had our Spirit of the Wood as group heal, wich is an AA and manafree. Paladins have Hand of Piety AA that heals for the same amount of damage (1250).

That was me heh. We really need 15 minutes sotw. As for the group heal, I don't really care about=p If they give it to us, is a bonus. If they don't , oh well. I Can live with it for now. :)

Originally posted by Stormlin
WHEN has ANYONE on this board EVER suggested that we heal EQUAL to clerics?? Quote me the line
Technically equal, no. But some people want druids to be <i>practical</i> equals of clerics, with just a token penalty. The healing penalty should be real and obvious.

Minor correction..
druids are allways required to keep their druid alive
should offcourse have been:
[]idruids are allways required to keep their group alive[/i]

we want to be VIABLE healers, or at least that is my perception. im not sure what you mean by token penalty, but i consider 58% less efficient is far too great a penalty. Also no one asked to be a "practical equivelant" either, put some evidence where your mouth is.

im not asking for a full fledged CH. If you were to put KR to 7500 hps, and keep the 600 mana cost, you would have efficiency 66% that of clerics. For being the second best healing class in the game (or at least the 2nd best CH class), does that sound unreasonable? hell even 50% efficiency, which is healing 5625 with 600 mana wouldnt be too bad.

Technically equal, no. But some people want druids to be practical equals of clerics

That is nuts. Even if we were just given CH, we would be no where near the healers a cleric is. Not even close. They have so very many things more than us on healing. They have CH, we have a higher mana, lesser heal CH. They have SR, we have a slower casting SR. That's it for us. They then have on top of that, HoTs, group HoTs, Group direct heals, and a group CH. Clerics would be the undisputed masters of healing even if Druids had a full CH - and a full CH is not even what is being asked for. Tolken penalties - pffft.

For what it's worth, I'd rather have a better fast heal than a better CH.

I have reviewed my usage of TR/KR and found that I rarely use them other when being main healer in an exp group. When I use iCHs I prefer using TR because it is easier and safer to get max efficiency out of that spell. (i.e, heal not getting capped) As someone noted earlier, KR is only 7% more efficient, so you end up loosing that efficiency advantage because your heals are more often capped against the target's max HP when using KR.

A better CH would not help me in exp group situations that I currently can't handle. If you get a bad pull in a hard LDoN, even a 10k CH wouldn't help. A better fast heal would help a lot though. If I could pick any cleric heal/ability to help me in those situations, I'd pick Divine Arbitration.

On raids I almost always use NI. There is rarely time to spent 10 secs casting a heal. If you want to save that cleric/chanter who is tanking that 1k+ hitter, NI is the only way to go. This goes for tank healing a lot of the times too, such as when healing the rampage tank. (Hail, Magmaton, KtM and GtW) Spend 10 secs casting and the tank will be dead.

Sometimes on raids I don't even have a iCH memorized because I'm out of spell slots. In other words, during a fight there are 8 other spells that I am more likely to need than iCH.

On raids I have been using TR/KR in these situations:
- CH chain when we are extremely low on clerics.
- The rathe council off tanking.
- Other 'stable' off tanking situations. (PoTime phase1 trials off tanking, for example)
- Downtime healing.

When I do CH chain on raids I usually use TR, otherwise I will be oom when most clerics are at ~40-50% mana. (Both clerics and myself have 18 UMR and 6k+ manapool) What is usually overlooked when comparing cleric CH and KR is the rate of mana loss for clerics vs druids. Let's say a cleric spend 300 mana(just using 25% total mana preservation as an example since I'm too lazy to figure out the exact value) on a CH and regens ~140m (about 70 per tick with all buffs(more when on a horse), 2 ticks per CH) for every CH rotation. The cleric looses 160m per CH rotation. A druid would use 450m (600*0.75 - assuming the druid is alteration specced here also, otherwise the druid's mana preservation would be less in comparision) and regen 140m. Mana loss per CH rotation is 310 for the druid. This result in the druid loosing mana about twice as fast as a cleric.

Then again, CH chain is not something I aspire to do more of. I'd rather keep the CHs the way they are and get better fast heals or other tools. (Divine Arbitration /drool ;) )

Druids are made for power leveling and ports. It is the only thing they are really good at.

Originally posted by Tudamorf
Technically equal, no. But some people want druids to be <i>practical</i> equals of clerics, with just a token penalty. The healing penalty should be real and obvious.

BS BS BS BS BS BS

You still haven't responded to my challenge when I asked you
to point to another facet of the game, where the specialist BEST class is 50% ((your goal)) better than the 2nd best class

Let alone where it stands now, where the best class is
137% better ((CH vs KR))

Lowering the Mana Cost on KR to 500 or even 400 would restore the balance in the 2 lines.

This still WOULDNT BE EQUAL. it still wouldnt even be close
@ 500 mana ((117% percent better Cleric)) at 400 Mana ((57% better)) --- hey wait, your goal... No?


-------------------------

Not to mention
1) I prooved that KR was a pathetic upgrade 7% to TR in comparison to every other 61+ spell being 15 to 40% upgrade

2) Clerics still have more Healing Tools. Group Heal, Heal over Times, and Super Super Fast 1.5 Heal.

3) On a raid
The best Druid in Everquest on any server. Is worth a cleric with NEGATIVE FT. The gap is so large, its like saying a 65 Warrior in Crusty should outtank a Plane of Time rogue.

4) Even if you look at the rest of healing equation. SL is 4.58
NI is 3.5 making Cleric a 31% better. yet look at the gap in CH vs KR.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should there be a gap between Clerics and Druids... YES

Is there a GAP... YES

Is gap the proper amount... NO IT IS WAY TOO LARGE

let me draw a parallel.
Should a Pal/SK out tank a Ranger, BST? .... Yes

Is there a Gap... Yes

Is the gap the proper amount... Yes

Is Ranger/Bst closer to Pal/SK then a druid is to cleric... YES BY A FRIGGEN TON

Originally posted by MadroneDorf
[B
Regarding Healing in Elemental PLanes, when you first break planes and healing, its very sloppy, the damage is already fairly spikey to begin with, and your tanks arnt really well equipped for it, but once you get A) Better tanks/AA B) Better Healing Equipment/AA and C) More Experience, healing in Elemental planes (XP wise) becomes pretty damn easy. I've done earth with a shaman healing, and give me a druid any day of the week and i'll do fine. [/B]

You will do "fine' yes. But it depends on what "fine" is.

If fine is "we can kill mobs." then yeah you will do fine.

If fine is "we get efficient XP" then no, you do not do fine.

Replace that druid, with a cleric... even a cleric that IS MUCH MUCH WORSE EQUIPPED. and your kill rate will go UP. you will be able to pull more mobs, and get more xp.

Should that be true? Yes, to a degree. Its like replacing a monk with a rogue. A Ranger MA, with a Pally MA. You can move from getting by, to ideal.

Currently, the gap between Druid/Cleric is SO LARGE in terms of mana sustainable healing. That you can severly downgrade the gear and come out ahead.

Try this challenge test. Get a druid in your guild. A slower.
and 3 DPS. Count how many kills you can do in earth before Respawns. Then replace the druid with a cleric. Have the cleric take off 3/4 of thier gear, especially removing thier FT items.
Rinse and Repeat. Your kill rate will go up.

Should a Pally outtank a ranger? Sure.
Should a 3/4 Naked Pally outtank a fully equiped same gear level Ranger? No.
Should a Pally in POV with all bazaar gear outank a ranger in Plane of Time gear? No.

Now replace Pally with Cleric. Ranger with Druid. The last two answes should stay "NO" but in reality they are "yes"

I am sorry, corlathist. But who are you tring fool here?

It does not matter how well you can heal, it only matters if you can get the job done.

Just like the current situation, it does not matter how well you can tank, just if you can get the job done.

Or a possiblitly down the road, it does not matter how well you can do the damage, just if you can get the job done. The only difference is, damage stacks BUT healing and tanking do not.

Originally posted by divina
I am sorry, corlathist. But who are you tring fool here?

It does not matter how well you can heal, it only matters if you can get the job done.

Just like the current situation, it does not matter how well you can tank, just if you can get the job done.

Or a possiblitly down the road, it does not matter how well you can do the damage, just if you can get the job done. The only difference is, damage stacks BUT healing and tanking do not.

Shrug, some suscribe to your belief. I do not.

The irony is it's hypocritical to suscribe to the belief that all that matters is "Can you get the job done" vs "How well/fairly you do the job." and to even discuss class balance.

If you believe, I assume you also think Warriors and Monks and Rogues are just fine correct?

After all, they get the job done.

In fact, ever class in EQ gets the job done. So classes don't need to be balanced would be the logical outcome of your belief? Correct?

If you answer Yes, Yes then we have to agree to disagree as I do believe Class Balance is a worthwhile goal.

If you answer NO to either, then your either not fully seeing the scope of the problem, or your being slightly hypocritical.

This goes for tank healing a lot of the times too, such as when healing the rampage tank. (Hail, Magmaton, KtM and GtW) Spend 10 secs casting and the tank will be dead.

That's why you have a druid ch chain to heal the tank sometimes :p

Well if you complain so much about how druids needs better heals etc.. and you compare it to clerics. Let's take a look at shammy's.

Tnarg's Mending. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3233&source=Live Heals for 1300 for 450 mana and is a 3.75 sec cast. a ratio of 2.88.

Quiescence. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3398&source=Live
Heals for 300 hp per tick for 4 ticks. that's 300 x 4 = 1200 k in total over a time of 24 secs. Cost for only 200 mana. Sure this is a far better heal but this won't save the group or anything since is a heal overtime. Mobs usually hits for 300 + most of the days.
Its also a 6 secs cast. Ratio if 6 but you can't really compare this to others since is an overtime heal.


Kragg's Mending. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2435&source=Live
Heals for 1950. 75% max for 400 mana. Its a 10 sec cast.
Ratio of 4.875


Druids heals.

Karana's Renewal. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3232&source=Live

Heals for 4680 for 600 mana. Cast time of 10 secs. Heals for 75% max. Ratio of 7.8


Nature's Infusion. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3443&source=Live Heals for 1750 for 500 mana. Cast time of 3.75 secs. Ratio of 3.5

Nature's touch. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=1291&source=Live
Heals for 978 for 400 mana. A cast time of 5.5 secs. Ratio is 2.445

Tunare's Renewal. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2179&source=Live
Heals for 2925 for 400 mana and is a 10 sec cast. ratio of 7.31

Druids Quick heals vs Shammy Quick heals.

Tnarg's Mending with a ratio of 2.88. Nature''s Infusion with a ratio of 3.5 and Nature's touch with a ratio of 2.445.

1. Nature's Infusion . 3.5 ratio.
2. Tnarg's Mending . 2.88 ratio.
3. Nature's touch. 2.445 ratio.

You can't really count Nature's touch since we really are comparing with the best quick heals each class get. Its a 0.62 different between these heals.

Druid CH vs Shammy CH.

Kragg's Mending with a ratio of 4.875 and Karana's Renewal with a ratio of 7.8 Tunare's Renewal with a ratio of 7.31

1. Karana's Renewal
2. Tunare's Renewal
3. Kragg's Mending.

You see shammy's CH is way out of order. Even our second best ch spell is better than shammys. Its a 2.925 difference between our KT vs shammy's KM.

Shammys are way out of line in healing but I don't see them complaining about it. Sure they got slow and such and is wanted in groups not as healing but as slower etc.. We got nukes, charms. We sometimes wanted in groups for DPS and stuff.

Just imo anyways.

Clerics.

Quick Heals:

Supernal Light. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3480&source=Live 2750 for 600 mana. 4.853 ratio. 3.75 secs cast time.

Supernal Remedy. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3465&source=Live 1450 for 400 mana. 3.625 ratio.
1.75 cast time.

CHs. Complete Heal. Heals for 7500 for 400 mana. 10 secs cast time. Ratio of 18.75 http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=13&source=Live

Now Clerics vs Druids vs Shammys

Quick Heal.
Druid: Nature's Infusion. 3.5 ratio
Cleric Supernal Light. 4.853 ratio.
Shammy. Tnarg's mending. 2.88 ratio

1. Cleric Supernal Light. 4.853 ratio
2. Druid Nature's Infusion. 3.5 ratio
3. Shammy. Tnarg's mending. 2.88 ratio.

Difference between cleric and druid is 1.352 Druid and shammy is 0.62 We really are not that bad.

CH.
Kragg's Mending with a ratio of 4.875 and Karana's Renewal with a ratio of 7.8. Complete heal with a ratio of 18.75

Clerics are clearly the ones that are best at it. ratio of 18.75 is like 2 times better than our KT with 7.8 But if you look at a certain way. Clerics are meant for a group/raid 's primary healer. Its their job, only reason why their class is stil remaining on EQ. We as a priest class but can do many things clerics can't do is not bad really. Shammy is tagging along in the heals. They not really good at it but their have their own abilitys to make them strong. I don't see why we should complain about our heals at all. Of course this is all imo.

Originally posted by Noliniel


Clerics are clearly the ones that are best at it. ratio of 18.75 is like 2 times better than our KT with 7.8 But if you look at a certain way. Clerics are meant for a group/raid 's primary healer. Its their job, only reason why their class is stil remaining on EQ. We as a priest class but can do many things clerics can't do is not bad really. Shammy is tagging along in the heals. They not really good at it but their have their own abilitys to make them strong. I don't see why we should complain about our heals at all. Of course this is all imo. [/B]

Heh, they do complain about it. Bitterly. Plus your missing a few relavant data points.

1) Quiessence can gain more power through AAs then ICHs.
Quiessence is effectable by 50% SCRM for 21 AA as opposed to 19% Gain in ICHs for 30 AA. It is also effectable by Quick Buff AA dropping 50% of its speed down to 3 Seconds.
Fully AAed Quiessence is 200 Mana for 1800 Healed in 3 Seconds
9.0 Ratio

**Edit Add. Plus Quiessence gain power through a select few focus items. 3 or 4 time items, Coirnav Earring, 1 or maybe 2 VT items, and one LDON Augment. ICHS can gain NO power through any focus items***

Fully Maxed Out, Quiessence can Heal 8 Tics 300 Each for 2400 for 200 Mana. This is a whopping 12.0 Ratio.

Fully Maxed out KR heals 5652 for 600 mana 9.4 Ratio

2) Shaman have significantly more mana regen to counter balance lower efficiency when compared to a druid. Druids do NOT have significantly more mana regen then a cleric.

3) Shaman have more Healing Tools then Druids do. They have a very powerful HOT compared to no HOT. Druids have always been the larger of the direct healers, compared to shaman who have always been the better healer.

4) Shaman aren't pigenholed as much as a druid in role.
Shaman are the 1st Slowing Class. So even if thier the 3rd Healing Class, they are well balanced. Druids do not come in 3rd, or even in top half in any other traditional role. Healing, DPS, Tanking.

Anyway, being a significant posted on Shamans Crucible. Yes they do complain bitterly about thier healing being out of line.
KM is inferior to TR. They also complained bitterly when thier 64 ICH was removed from the database. However, shaman make do with Quiessences superior ratio, low agro.

BTW: when I play LDON, shaman are primary healers > druids.
As Quiessence's Ratio > any druid healing.

However, at the end of the day... how does shaman vs druid balance matter in terms of Druid vs Cleric balance?

Druids/Shamans can be balanced, and both still be under what is necessary for the game to be considered balanced.

There are other solutions I could live with besides adjusting KR to 400-500 mana.

Some of them include:
New AA, accessible only with a minimum of 250 AA.
These AA would reduce CH/ICH casting cost 25% percent.
Or up thier total healed by some amount.

New Ancient Spells in Plane of Time
A new better ICH thats less mana and heals more

((Numbers need work. No one claims a druid should outheal or even come close to an equally equipped/aaed cleric. A gap of 20 to 40 percent to an equal leveled cleric is fine and dandy.

The current dirty/hidden truth is that the gap is so large, that druids are worse healers then clerics with hundreds of less AAs and vastly expansions worse mana regen.

When the best druid in existance is equal to a cleric with Negative 2 FT Standing, or Negative 12 FT on a horse on a raid
You have a balance issue.

You have a balance issue.I'll agree with this statement, but I call foul on the Ancient/Plane of Time idea. Don't even dare think of balancing heals only for the top elite. It's not fair to the class. If the gap remains for 80 - 90 % of the players, then it's not balance.

Well, someone here seems to think that our percentage heal is "broken" but it hasn't changed since it's introduction. Neither has the cleric CH. Yes, HPs on tanks have improved, but the spells themselves are no more "broken" now than when they were introduced. My guild has been doing "end game" PoTime with what exists (as have many others) and we made it through all of PoP with VT equipment and elemental upgrades as we got them.

Even when KR was first introduced to the game my guild used druids in CH order VERY rarely and *only* as a fill in for missing clerics.... a test. Druids have NEVER been AS desirable as a cleric in a CH even though they can fill a gap when desperate. We didn't stop using druids in CH orders because added HPs diluted the power of the spell. We stopped trying to fit them in because it just wasn't viable as a permanent slot for druids.

We are PATCH healers in raids. We have always been patch healers in raids even before we gained KR and NI as spells. I used to patch the monk puller in NToV before any other guilds on our server were able to raid there. Changing our "CH" spell (although I don't know why people even started calling KR a CH spell) probably would not pull it out of most raiding druids spell books and into a slot anyway. Even our clerics are running "CH" orders with faster, smaller spells quite often. AAs and casting focus items have improved the faster casting heals to the point that this CAN be done. I use NI and NT more than I ever have used KR (yep! Pulled NT out of the back of my spellbook). About the ONLY time I cast KR at a raid is when I miskey and start the wrong macro for a heal. In exp groups, I use it occasionally but only when we have a real warrior tanking for us and they're hard to find for LDoNs which is most of my grouping these days.

Rather than complain about what we have now (since these spells have been in game and used effectively "as is" for quite some time now) the discussion should be focused on what spells are coming for us in the next expansion. We were given a soloing DoT in LDoN, perhaps it's time to ask for something that will be more "group friendly" rather than beat our existing live horse to death.

Actually, there's a lot to be said about this.

The decision on which heal to use is based on four factors:-

(1) Speed. Will this heal land in time to keep the enchanter up?
(2) Efficiency. Will this heal cost me too much mana?
(3) Range. Will this heal land from this distance?
(4) Aggro. Will I be pounded into the ground if I cast this heal?

Well, clerics trump druids in speed, efficiency, and low-aggro heals (HoT's). With long-range heals, there's less of a clear differential.

Clerics also provide group heals which are situational but can be massively efficient (if you thought cleric CH was efficient, check out Word of Redemption some time.)

Druids trump clerics in only one area of healing, which is the regeneration buffs; massively efficient healing over the long term.

Now, healing is only one part of the overall cleric/druid balance. In addition to bringing healing to the table, druids also bring improved DPS (exception: against undead monsters, a cleric can approach druid damage levels) and versatility.

Ultimately, druids and clerics seem like they're in reasonable balance at the moment. Clerics are the optimum choice for raw defensive/healing power; druids trade that healing for versatility and decent offense.

I feel that it's reasonable for druids to ask that HG works with percentage heals; that doesn't have to mean cleric changes. And I feel that it's reasonable to ask for a 15-minute reuse timer on Spirit of the Wood; again, that doesn't have to mean cleric changes.

But I think that if the proposal is to offer more healing power and versatility over and above these two relatively small changes, then clerics have to receive offensive power and versatility to match.

For example, cleric nukes at the moment all - without exception - check against the monster's MR rather than any other resist. The general purpose nukes also have a knockback component, meaning two resist checks. Cleric DoT's are undead-specific and have a horrible ratio compared to the nukes, so they're only ever memmed while root rotting.

I think that if you give druids more powerful and more versatile heals, then you have to give clerics more powerful and more versatile nukes at the same time.

And I'm not sure that's good for the game.

Yes Quiessence can be affected by aas and items. Though is only an overtime heal. Its not efficent as a quick heal in place of a messy pull or whatever. Though if you read my thread. I don't include any date about aas. There are pure raw date from Lucy. There are healing adapt druids gets and etc.. If you add them, is a bit different result. please don't mix pure raw data with the aas.

2) Shaman have significantly more mana regen to counter balance lower efficiency when compared to a druid. Druids do NOT have significantly more mana regen then a cleric.

If you talking about Cann yea. That spell does give you mana at the cost of a chuck of hp =p Is very usefu. Druids gets pot9/bot9 and Mask of Forest. Its not bad mana regen.

4) Shaman aren't pigenholed as much as a druid in role.

Yes they can slow, though druids can charm, dps, ds, heal, tank yes with good gears. we not doing too bad.

However, at the end of the day... how does shaman vs druid balance matter in terms of Druid vs Cleric balance?

Druids and shamans are part of the Priest class. Cleric is a part of the Priest also but they are primary healers. Druids are second at it and we not doing bad. Shaman vs druid comparison is to compare to where we reallying standing in this healing area of priest class. We doing much more better than shammys imo and I don't see why we need any changes atm. We can get the job done. But like you said, get the job done is not good enough.
If fine is "we get efficient XP" then no, you do not do fine. Hi, Clerics are meant to be primary and the best healer there is like I said many times. Of course you wil see some minor difference when a druid and cleric heals. That's cause druids aren't designed to be healing in the cleric level. That would make the classes really unbalance. I don't have any problems when healing. I can get the job done, I can nuke , heal, ds, regen my group without going below 70 m. I have no problems with druids healing. Just imo

Originally posted by Noliniel
Yes Quiessence can be affected by aas and items. Though is only an overtime heal. Its not efficent as a quick heal in place of a messy pull or whatever. Though if you read my thread. I don't include any date about aas. There are pure raw date from Lucy. There are healing adapt druids gets and etc.. If you add them, is a bit different result. please don't mix pure raw data with the aas.

-----

Corlathist Reply
FOUL! I added AAs to the comparison for both KR and Quiessence. Balance can be accounted for through AA grinding too. Look at Rangers and AM/EQ. They get a huge power burst
at the expense of AAs. Would you throw away Archery in a DPS comparison because its AA generated?

----

If you talking about Cann yea. That spell does give you mana at the cost of a chuck of hp =p Is very usefu. Druids gets pot9/bot9 and Mask of Forest. Its not bad mana regen.


Corlathist Reply
FOUL *2.
Shaman can get nine cast on them. And do before XPing.
Nine + Cann stack. Now comparing Mask vs Cann its fair but no comparison.

------

Yes they can slow, though druids can charm, dps, ds, heal, tank yes with good gears. we not doing too bad.



Druids and shamans are part of the Priest class. Cleric is a part of the Priest also but they are primary healers. Druids are second at it and we not doing bad. Shaman vs druid comparison is to compare to where we reallying standing in this healing area of priest class. We doing much more better than shammys imo


---

Corlathist Reply:
In your opinion. You completely neglected the fact that I said in every LDON group I do. It is the Shaman that is the Main Healer not the Druid.

----


and I don't see why we need any changes atm. We can get the job done. But like you said, get the job done is not good enough.
Hi, Clerics are meant to be primary and the best healer there is like I said many times. Of course you wil see some minor difference when a druid and cleric heals. That's cause druids aren't designed to be healing in the cleric level. That would make the classes really unbalance. I don't have any problems when healing. I can get the job done, I can nuke , heal, ds, regen my group without going below 70 m. I have no problems with druids healing. Just imo


Again, for the umpteenth time. I dont want to heal as well as a cleric that is at the same level of the game as me. ((EP/1 Time loot, 300ish AAs, FT 15, MP of 5900)) However, I do feel I should heal better than a cleric with 25ish AAs, FT0. MP 4000s.
I absolutely do NOT currently.

Do you think the reverse is true btw? Do you think a cleric with 300aa FT15 MP5900 is a worse nuker than a druid with 4000 MP, 25ish AA, and FT0?

Do you think the reverse is true btw? Do you think a cleric with 300aa FT15 MP5900 is a worse nuker than a druid with 4000 MP, 25ish AA, and FT0?

Actually ... They are. Cleric's don't get resist debuffs on their primary nukes. They are limited to magic nukes. Their nukes contain a push component (hello aggro). Their nukes take longer to cast and have a horrid damage/mana ratio.

If you thought druids get summoned a lot when chain casting nukes, try chain casting as a cleric (well ... twisting to get around the recast delay). Magic based nukes are bad.

A cleric will be dead long before a druid dies when chain nuking. I'd say that if a druid gets summoned after 8 nukes (chain), a cleric will get summoned after 4.

So, a cleric will be less likely to land their nukes for full damage. They are more likely to generate aggro from their nukes. And they burn up more mana for the damage they CAN do.

FOUL! I added AAs to the comparison for both KR and Quiessence. Balance can be accounted for through AA grinding too. Look at Rangers and AM/EQ. They get a huge power burst

I said my data is without the aas etc.. Not yours



Shaman can get nine cast on them. And do before XPing.

I was talking about self buffs and etc.. heh

In your opinion. You completely neglected the fact that I said in every LDON group I do. It is the Shaman that is the Main Healer not the Druid.

But in every LDON group I am in, I am the primary healer or the cleric. Not the shammy. Can't really argue about that.

Again, for the umpteenth time. I dont want to heal as well as a cleric that is at the same level of the game as me. ((EP/1 Time loot, 300ish AAs, FT 15, MP of 5900)) However, I do feel I should heal better than a cleric with 25ish AAs, FT0. MP 4000s.

Yes you should be able to heal better than a cleric with 25 ish aa, FT 0 etc.. You should have seen the results yourself. I am EP geared and I rarely oom when I am healing for my LDON group or whatever. If you put a cleric like that there. He/she wil go oom ,most of the time

At some point Corl, you have to stop arguing with people. That point is usually about when they start making stuff up. Kinadea is obviously so set in her opinion that she is willing to make stuff up about Magic nukes being higher agro than other nukes (and at greater than 2:1 agro generation). When you see garbage like that, it is time to stop arguing with a person. There is no point, as she will obviously say anything to continue to claim she is right.

Quiescence. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3398&source=Live
Heals for 300 hp per tick for 4 ticks. that's 300 x 4 = 1200 k in total over a time of 24 secs. Cost for only 200 mana. Sure this is a far better heal but this won't save the group or anything since is a heal overtime. Mobs usually hits for 300 + most of the days.
Its also a 6 secs cast. Ratio if 6 but you can't really compare this to others since is an overtime heal.

The thing about Quiescense that you are overlooking is that it takes the place of a group heal against major AE PoP fights. A shaman can effectively keep me and the rest of the group alive with this spell even through Ele 3k AE's. If I did that with NI, I'd die very quickly with heal aggro and/or be OOM much sooner.

The thing about Quiescense that you are overlooking is that it takes the place of a group heal against major AE PoP fights. A shaman can effectively keep me and the rest of the group alive with this spell even through Ele 3k AE's. If I did that with NI, I'd die very quickly with heal aggro and/or be OOM much sooner.

Very true :)

Originally posted by corlathist
Corlathist Reply:
In your opinion. You completely neglected the fact that I said in every LDON group I do. It is the Shaman that is the Main Healer not the Druid.Interesting. I can honestly say I have never been in one of those groups. EVER.

Just goes to show that Corlathist IS playing a different game than most of us. I suspected such after his first or second post anyway. :D

What the?!? Hey! I was answering a comment about a well equipped cleric being able to NUKE as well as a poorly equipped druid.

Something in the order of 2:1. Let's see ... I talked about how druids can debuff resists so our nukes land for full compared to a cleric who must roll against the mob's base MR. I noticed there wasn't disagreement to this point.

I talked about a druid having a choice in nuke resists (FR, MR and CR) while the cleric is stuck at MR. Again, no disagreement here.

I mentioned the efficiency of druid nukes versus cleric nukes. No disagreement here.

I mentioned that cleric nukes take longer to cast. No disagreement here either.

And I talked about the aggro component of nukes that push. Well, there is some disagreement here and I suspect there will always be disagreement considering no one has run a statistical test on aggro levels of cleric nukes versus druid nukes.

Am I making it up? Well, from personal experience, cleric nukes tend to generate more aggro than druid nukes. Yeah, a "he said/she said" argument that doesn't hold water - but personal experience is the basis for which I made my comments. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

So let's use numbers to hopefully show the difference between clerics nuking and druids nuking:

Note: Since I haven't run these numbers yet, I MAY find that I am wrong in my earlier statements. I will change my tune if that is the case.

Low equipment, low AA druid nuking:

- Assuming 4000 mana with a MP4 item (druid ornate booties - 6% savings avg per nuke?).

- Winter's Frost - 1550 for 320 mana every 8.35 seconds

- That's 12 nukes for full damage after Eci's debuff (18600 damage in
~120 seconds).

Now let's look at the well equipped cleric ... 5900 mana, all the bells and whistles (nuke gloves 13% avg, magic nuke focus 18% avg, SCF3 5%?, casting haste 20%).

- Condemnation - 1353 damage for 318 mana every 12 seconds
- Judgement - 1138 damage for 286 mana every 12 seconds
-- A cleric will need to twist these two nukes to get full dps.

That amounts to 10 nuke twists for 24910 damage in ~120 seconds.

...

Heh, I guess a well equipped cleric can out heal AND out nuke a poorly equipped druid. I stand corrected.

P.S.
I didn't factor in cleric nuke resists since they can't debuff MR. Let's assume a resist rate of 20% resist rate for elemental mobs (level 65 and above). That drops the cleric damage output from 24910 to 19928. Which is still above the poorly equipped druid example.

Dispell - enchanter's have a 4 slot dispells with the top one taking 9 counters from each slot. All other classes are 2 slot dispells usually with half the counters compared to an enchanter of the same level. 200-400% advantage for enchanters.

Thats one case where the top class enjoys a large advantage over all others.
Charm -

At some point Corl, you have to stop arguing with people. That point is usually about when they start making stuff up. Kinadea is obviously so set in her opinion that she is willing to make stuff up about Magic nukes being higher agro than other nukes (and at greater than 2:1 agro generation). When you see garbage like that, it is time to stop arguing with a person. There is no point, as she will obviously say anything to continue to claim she is right.

Hmm I think you are the one who is making stuff up. Clerics magic nukes do generate more aggro. For example:

http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3476&source=Live Condemnation. It has a pushback of 1. Of course push back can generate more aggro like most people know already.

Now if you take a look at summer's flame.

http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3449&source=Live

It has no push back at all. :)

Saying things like "pushback generates more aggro" is kinda not possible to prove. I certainly never notice any additional aggro generation when I'm monk-tanking with my Stronghorn's Horn (big knockback proc). The mobs dont seem to care at all.

Cleric DoT's are undead-specific and have a horrible ratio compared to the nukes, so they're only ever memmed while root rotting.
Actually, from what I have been told, then the clerics DoT's works as a series of minor DD's. This means root has a high chance of breaking.

If you talking about Cann yea. That spell does give you mana at the cost of a chuck of hp =p Is very usefu. Druids gets pot9/bot9 and Mask of Forest. Its not bad mana regen.
Druids don't even come up close to a Shamans mana regen, so that's a really really bad comparison.

Yes they can slow, though druids can charm, dps, ds, heal, tank yes with good gears. we not doing too bad.
Shaman's can slow, summon a level 58 pet, charm (allthough low level), DPS (they out DPS a druid effortlessly when they go full DoT's), DS, they can make their potions here, heal (70% slow is quite a bit more efficient than a druid spamhealing is, and they have their heals still), tanking, again shamans do that a hell of a lot better than druids. Again a real bad comparison.

I can nuke , heal, ds, regen my group without going below 70 m. I have no problems with druids healing.
That's really odd Noliniel, why is it then that you go OOM so early when you are -only- healing? I can answer that, cause you spread out your heals to keep your group alive, where if you had a group heal you'd be able to last longer, and still not even be close to challenging the clerics.

Condemnation. It has a pushback of 1. Of course push back can generate more aggro like most people know already.

How much aggro does a cleric generate with his pushback nukes? I get plenty pissed when my spells don't channel cause of that #$^$#@ pushback. If I can summon a Doomfire Cleric for interrupting my nukes, I would.

Hehe ;)

Nolinel & Arienna both basically said "you are playing different than we are"

That's proably true. Im an elemental geared druid who just broke 7k buffed hps Last night. I have 300 AA.

However, I also have 3 computers. I am very used to multiboxing, having multiple accounts and friends accounts.
This includes a Shaman with 250ish AA FT AA thats a bot

((So a little less equipped say 6500 Buffed HPS, FT15, 5300 MP)) and access to another friends cleric. Also a bot ((not as nicely equipped say 5900 HPS bbuffed. 5k MP now FT11. 90 AAs

The gap actually has shrunk quite a lot as ive worked on the cleric

I've literally done the tests that Ive spoken of. Sat my druid, and played my friends cleric ((much weaker back then. FT7 4200 MP 45ish AAs vs my then FT15 MC3 5500 MP Druid)) and watch the kills per respawn go UP by a large portion.

Whenever I do LDON, the shaman is the main healer. I might through some back up spams. But when his Quiessence is a 9.0 Ratio ((SCRM 200 vs 1800)) vs KR 9.4 Ratio at MAX. However, since Im running with Tanks with like 10K HPS, or even my usual bst tank with 8k HPS. I dont want to spend 10 seconds casting for a 9.4 ratio, while shaman spends 3 seconds casting for 9.0 ratio. Shaman can also Cann4 and Cann5 to easily totally and utterly blow away that tiny difference.

I play all three priests classes. Day in and Day out I play the shaman and druid. And I tell you what. Quiessence with all the AAs and Focuses that effect it, more MORE then makes up for the differerence in Shaman vs Druid ICHs.

I also have played and tested the difference.
I have also run the numbers on efficiency numerous times on this thread. And either through game play, or through numbers
KR is way underpowered.

Its underpowered compared to CH.
Its underpowered as an improvement to tr for a 61+ spell

At the lower end, you may not see many shaman with enough AA for SCRM and Quick Buff3 and Cann5. But welcome to the high end game.

PSS: you also wont see many shaman who heal to thier potential.
After all, they are slowers, dotters, even nukers usually before healing in desire. However, a shaman that wants to will heal as well as a druid, if not better. Their mana regen will make up for in quantity what they lack in quality. Its also why they can put out good dps when they want to.

Shaman's can slow, summon a level 58 pet, charm (allthough low level), DPS (they out DPS a druid effortlessly when they go full DoT's), DS, they can make their potions here, heal (70% slow is quite a bit more efficient than a druid spamhealing is, and they have their heals still), tanking, again shamans do that a hell of a lot better than druids. Again a real bad comparison.

This one? Charm Animals. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=260&source=Live Max level on it is 34. making it useless for shamans in the level 60 + groupin etc.. Our charm is level 60 and below only. Making it kinda useful in the places where level 60 + characters group. ( like ruj in LDON, POS etc.. )

Not every shammy in the EQ world is going to make ds potions on their own. They do cost some amount of money. You can't really call it a ds since not every shammy is going to have it. Is like like a person has endless money to send on ds potions.

Shield of the bracken. http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3448&source=Live is a level 63 spell that is has 40 ds damage on it. Most of the level 65 druids have it.

Yes when they go full dots is going to out dps us since they have really strong dots. But stacking many dots + slow wil get you killed certainly cause of aggro.

Well yes shammys do have 70% slow and some great heals. We have some spam heals if you like to call it plus our 5 k something CH. Ever saw a shammy on a chain chain on a raid? =p


That's really odd Noliniel, why is it then that you go OOM so early when you are -only- healing? I can answer that, cause you spread out your heals to keep your group alive, where if you had a group heal you'd be able to last longer, and still not even be close to challenging the clerics.

Hmm I never acutally oom so early with only healing. Unless it is of course a really bad pull. Hell , even clerics oom with a really bad pull where you have to heal everyone and stuff. I never said I don't want a group heal, I just said I don't think we need a better ch or anything.

Originally posted by Arienne
Interesting. I can honestly say I have never been in one of those groups. EVER.

Just goes to show that Corlathist IS playing a different game than most of us. I suspected such after his first or second post anyway. :D

With a good shammy in my group the shammy goes into healmode. He cant dish enuff dmg anyway. And he do this VERY good.

I just nuke and throw a backup heal here and there =)

Tubby

Unfortunately, healing can be a really boring aspect of the game, so clerics burn out somewhat quickly. As time continues on, more clerics disappear to IRL or play alts. The healing responsibility the falls on to the other "priests", who...for the most part...aren't too thrilled about it.

I've seen comments from people saying we don't need better heals, but quite honestly the opinions are flawed because they come from people with either insanely good gear, or people who rarely have to heal at all.

Some of us don't have that luxury.

I'm in a pre-elemental guild, and my gear is somewhat decent. A VT/Ssra piece or too, some ornate, Velious quest, etc. However I have over 450aa as well to help.

I get called on for healing duty A LOT. Why? because the clerics aren't always available. And because my guild, my friends, want to achieve goals and progress, I have not only the will, but the responsibility to help them do it. What am I going to do? tell them to go to hell? No. I have a higher sense of responsibility, and despite the difficulty of the task, I accept the role of the main healer...through AE fights, boss mobs, and even CH rotations.

Now I'm sure someone's going to input some clever remark that I should just play a cleric. Well guess what, I'm not a quitter...and despite the difficulties of this class, I'm still a druid. I accept the roles given to this class, even the ones you may ignore. I'll say one thing about it....why classify us as a priest, if our healing abilities are so horrendous? If I remember right, priests healed the world around them.

Do you know how ridiculous it is to have to spot heal six 5k+ hp people every time an AE wave hits your group? Do you know how insane it is to know that you have to be so cautious with your mana as is, only to have to be in a tight spot just because the group got adds on the pull?


No one here wants cleric healing power. That's downright obvious. However, there are a number of us who have to accept the responsibility of the cleric's role, whether we like to or not. We do what we have to do for the people around us...and that's what the issue is about. We utterly refuse to accept this defiency in the "tools" given to us. If they're going to consider us priests, at least make us capable ones.

I will agree that I would like to see druids get some form of a group heal. On mobs with AE's, I hope to get a cleric, paladin, or shaman in my groups since all 3 of them keep up with the AE better than I can. I go oom very quickly having to NI 6 people, but have yet to see one of thoe 3 classes say oom from doing the group heals. On mobs like Quarm, I've had to pick which people in my group die when I am the only healer because my mana cannot keep them all alive in most cases. the necro feeding me mana usually lives :-)

I would also agree with reducing the time on SotW to the 15 or less range. At 22 mins I know I am reluctant to use it unless really needed just for the long refresh time and it's one of the last resorts before evac'ing normally. Reducing it to 15 mins would help with that some. Being told I was given a group heal in sotw is just silly. A group heal with a 22 min refresh rate that in the one cast you get won't heal everyone all the time?

As for ldon groups, I've done them where the paladin or the shaman were main healing over me. Although I can also add one group the paladin healed over the cleric and myself since his heals were all that were needed and he kept aggro. These groups were also with guild members and not pickup groups, so we also knew more about the abilities of the people in the group. Spells only do so much, sometimes it just takes skill and knowing your class.

I don't mind doing a cheal rot, but I run oom a lot faster than the clerics. The last rot I was in was RZ in time. I went oom by the time he was at 50% and the clerics were still 60%+. I had a steady mana feed as well that fight, max ft, mc3, pres of xegony, sd, c5, mask, potn, sat on a horse, and it's my specialization. That seems extreme. My manapool was around 6k then.

I admit sitting in a cheal rot is not something I would like to do. I like to heal, but I don't want to ONLY heal. I do just fine healing with what I have, except in a cheal rot.

As for speed of heals, it's possible to keep people up realistically only with a good spell haste item and good reflexes. Tonight in clearing time for example, I had 3 chanters, shaman, neco, and myself in a group. Unless the chanter was going to die almost instantly, I got a heal in. Yes, it requires us to pay a lot more attention than a cleric and have good reflexes. We don't have the multiple heals available or the "oops i didn't see that person was going to be hit 2 secs before they did" speedy heals. I think anyone playing a druid for any amount of time develops the quick reflexes for heals. Our heals take longer, therefore we have to react quicker at this time. Sometimes a person dies so fast even a cleric hitting divine arbitration cannot save them. In situations like that, they are going to die period no matter what quick spell we get. I do understand spell haste items are not easy to come by nor will everyone have them. I only got a good one myself in the last week and a half.

Kaige and Suva, I understand what you are saying but the logic is flawed. Yes, I know people don't like playing clerics in EQ because the class is (for the most part) boring and one dimentional. BUT, you don't "fix" one class by making another class into what the first is supposed to be. Giving druids different and "better" heals is a short term fix that will do nothing to repair the main healing class of EQ.

I'll admit, I am one of those with the "insanely good gear" and I have been very fortunate in my game of EQ when it comes to loot. BUT I don't want the core of the druid class to change simply because SOE can't find a way to make the cleric class more palatable to the players. The problem is NOT that druids have insufficient healing power, but that the cleric class is unappealing for many who have played a cleric to the upper levels of the game. Rather than ranting here that "druids need better heals because I can't keep my raid group up in a CH rotation" we should all be talking about WHY SOE isn't doing something to make playing the cleric class more appealing to those who play it.

My guild struggles for clerics daily and I know that the lower planes guilds do too because quite frankly, we TAKE your clerics to fill OUR needs. When we log in to find three clerics online for the night and we have a full raid of people waiting to raid (three clerics to a 72 people raid) there IS something wrong. We have a lot of players who HAVE to two box clerics *just* so we can raid. But at least we have that option some of the time. Not everyone can play two characters at once due to hardware and connection restraints.

I say, FIX the CLERIC class, SOE! And when they DO, we all need to shut up and stop whining that clerics got improvements and now WE want a piece of that pie, too!

Originally posted by Arienne
Kaige and Suva, I understand what you are saying but the logic is flawed. Yes, I know people don't like playing clerics in EQ because the class is (for the most part) boring and one dimentional. BUT, you don't "fix" one class by making another class into what the first is supposed to be. Giving druids different and "better" heals is a short term fix that will do nothing to repair the main healing class of EQ.

I'll admit, I am one of those with the "insanely good gear" and I have been very fortunate in my game of EQ when it comes to loot. BUT I don't want the core of the druid class to change simply because SOE can't find a way to make the cleric class more palatable to the players. The problem is NOT that druids have insufficient healing power, but that the cleric class is unappealing for many who have played a cleric to the upper levels of the game. Rather than ranting here that "druids need better heals because I can't keep my raid group up in a CH rotation" we should all be talking about WHY SOE isn't doing something to make playing the cleric class more appealing to those who play it.

My guild struggles for clerics daily and I know that the lower planes guilds do too because quite frankly, we TAKE your clerics to fill OUR needs. When we log in to find three clerics online for the night and we have a full raid of people waiting to raid (three clerics to a 72 people raid) there IS something wrong. We have a lot of players who HAVE to two box clerics *just* so we can raid. But at least we have that option some of the time. Not everyone can play two characters at once due to hardware and connection restraints.

I say, FIX the CLERIC class, SOE! And when they DO, we all need to shut up and stop whining that clerics got improvements and now WE want a piece of that pie, too!

Ummmm no. No. No. And No. Again, let me challenge you to say How the heck our Heals are "adequate"

How is crappy 7% KR improvement over TR adequate for a 61+ spell?

How is 100%+ CH Advantage over KR adequate when in no other aspect of the game, is #1 more than 10 to 25% better than #2.?

How is 100%+ CH Advantage, even comparable balanced when looking at spot heal comparisions. Where the balance is Cleric is 31% Better than a Druid?

How many Clerics are you "supposed" to have on a raid anyway?
One per group? 12 Slots out of a hard limited 72? 1/6 of a raid to merely 1/13 of the classes? Take a 1 Second Chain. You need 12-13 healers to pull it off. So your talking 12/13 Clerics again?

If you were building an ideal raid of 72. How many clerics would you take per druid? 2 or more clerics per druid? Is that acceptable?

Is it Acceptable to you as a Time Geared Excellent Druid to know, that when using your ICH you are equal to a cleric with 1/3 less MP and a FT OF NEGATIVE 2 (Standing) or NEGATIVE 12 (Horse)

Quit ducking the specifics with generic "we're adequate and fine"

BUT, you don't "fix" one class by making another class into what the first is supposed to be.


Funny...I don't remember saying anything suggesting this.


No one here wants cleric healing power. That's downright obvious. However, there are a number of us who have to accept the responsibility of the cleric's role, whether we like to or not. We do what we have to do for the people around us...and that's what the issue is about. We utterly refuse to accept this defiency in the "tools" given to us. If they're going to consider us priests, at least make us capable ones.



Oh yeah, I said this though.

No one wants clerical power. Clerics are the dominant healers of the spectrum, and we've accepted that. However, we can't accept that no one, not even in their own Archetype, can come close to that.

We don't want to be clerics...but sometimes we have to fill in for them. All we need is something to handle the job when the need arises, and allows us to actually "manage" to do that. All people are asking for is a fighting chance. Not to have to make the choice of who has to live or die in a situation, not because of lack of player ability, but because we're not given the aspects that allow us to not have to make that choice. While it may not be fair to me...that's really unimportant. What its not truly fair to, is the people around us. They shouldn't have to be put into that type of situation just because we're ill-equiped.

Originally posted by Arienne
Kaige and Suva, I understand what you are saying but the logic is flawed. Yes, I know people don't like playing clerics in EQ because the class is (for the most part) boring and one dimentional. BUT, you don't "fix" one class by making another class into what the first is supposed to be. Giving druids different and "better" heals is a short term fix that will do nothing to repair the main healing class of EQ.

I'll admit, I am one of those with the "insanely good gear" and I have been very fortunate in my game of EQ when it comes to loot. BUT I don't want the core of the druid class to change simply because SOE can't find a way to make the cleric class more palatable to the players. The problem is NOT that druids have insufficient healing power, but that the cleric class is unappealing for many who have played a cleric to the upper levels of the game. Rather than ranting here that "druids need better heals because I can't keep my raid group up in a CH rotation" we should all be talking about WHY SOE isn't doing something to make playing the cleric class more appealing to those who play it.

My guild struggles for clerics daily and I know that the lower planes guilds do too because quite frankly, we TAKE your clerics to fill OUR needs. When we log in to find three clerics online for the night and we have a full raid of people waiting to raid (three clerics to a 72 people raid) there IS something wrong. We have a lot of players who HAVE to two box clerics *just* so we can raid. But at least we have that option some of the time. Not everyone can play two characters at once due to hardware and connection restraints.

I say, FIX the CLERIC class, SOE! And when they DO, we all need to shut up and stop whining that clerics got improvements and now WE want a piece of that pie, too!

thats far and away off topic. Are you saying you want MORE clerics in eq? dear god theres too many as there is!

Clerics ARE the number one healing class in eq, but, like shamans are slowers, they are not the only ones! There are 4 defined roles in a holy trinity group. Slower (shaman, chanter, bst, bards sometimes), tank (war, sk, pal, rangers and monks sometimes), dps (*), and healer (cleric, druid, shaman).

All of those rolls have clearly defined top dogs, in them, however tanks and slowers obviously have 2nd rate performers close behind them. Can a paladin tank only 38% of what a warrior can? (no warrior arguments here please), can a chanter slow only 38% as good as a shaman? SoE or Verant made it fairly obvious that druids are the 2nd best healers in the game. Why then are the tools they gave us so sub par compared to the top? In other departments the disparity is what, 20% max between 1st and 2nd? the majority (if not all) the druids here havent even asked to be 80% of a cleric, not even close. even 50% would be better than what we are at now. Hell even shamans need a leg up, a new CH for them at 64 was apparently planned and never implemented, and i for one think they should have gotten it (even though it would of course never be as powerful as ours, due to them getting supah Q)

Shaman slows 75%, chanter slows 70%
warrior tanks anything, paladin tanks... almost anything *cough* (hate to argue this in a time where warriors need a leg up, but i bet the arguement will still hold after the changes)
too many dps classes to really compare, but is there even a 50% difference between highest dps class (mage/wizard/whatever, too many factors) and the lowest? (druids maybe? hehe i kid i kid =P)
cleric heals at a 18.75/1 mana ratio, druid heals at 7.75

one of those four includes a huuuge gaping whole in the difference between the best and the 2nd best, can anyone spot it, anyone at all?

ive hated healing.... all my druidly life, but ive been having to do it more and more often lately as our gimp clerics havent gotten all the flags for elementals/sol ro and such, and its becoming really evident to me, our healing is arse.

if you were so into nuking why did you make a druid?Because our utility used to mean something before it was whored out so recklessly.

I've played since beta 4, with a few breaks along the way. What we used to be and what we are now are quite different. I think we are fairly well off, mind you, but things have definately changed.

I regularly play a 65 druid and a 65 cleric. My sisters char is the 65 druid and my main is a 65 cleric. I want to get that out first. I have experience with both classes and know the strengths and weaknesses of both.

Is it fair to say druid heals are far subpar to cleric heals? Yes in some ways. Your quick healing stinks and this really hurts you as a bare bone healing class. Also you have no group heals which can also hurt.

Saying that however druids when eq started had very limited healing capacity... look at druids at the state of the game when EQ started and then look at them now and they have recieved many healing improvements over time that have vastly improved their class. If you wanted to be a main healer For all of you who started a long time ago, I would assume you would have picked a cleric and not a druid because back when nearly 90 percent of you started playing druids didnt have CH's or any of the tools they have now heal wise.

However I have ABSOLUTELY NO problem with heal generated agro or problems keeping my mana up and my tank up as a druid healer compared to my cleric healer. And due to this I don't really see any reason why druids should get more healing upgrades. In fact... when I play the 65 druid I can not only heal but Also add significant DPS, and yes were elemental but even before we were I had no problem with a druid healer.... however saying this I do feel that if they did upgrade druid healing and cleric dps at the same time it would better increase balance... this is why.

I think druids are by FAR the stronger class when you total all skills and abilities between the two. Literally the only thing druids dont have that clerics do is as follows.

Rez.
Quick Quick heals.
Group Heals.

......

Thats it.... thats all of our usefull skills that you dont have... :P

Then look at a cleric compared to druid skills.

Crap Nukes...
Dots...
Snare...
Speed buffs...
Teleports....
Charm...
Viable solo options...
Invis...


IMO if druids want to get better at healing I welcome it because personally when I'm leading our healers on a raid It would be much easier to be able to use druids more effectively then already possible... trust me.

This is what it comes down too, Druids and Clerics are both good classes in groups... if you have a good slower and tank and are familiar with the group I think druids are the better choice because they can not only heal but also add dps. If however your going into a group with people you dont know and they may stink or something then a Cleric is probably a better choice because if anything goes wrong they can pickup the slack fairly easily comparitively. So IMO for groups, if you group with people you know fairly well or guildys most likely a druid is a better choice as a healer if you like quick exp. For raids however its obvious that clerics are still superior in many different ways and as such much more usefull.

IMO the solution to all our interclass problems is as follows.

Increase Clerics soloability options by giving us new skills and abililties to help us solo whatever it may be... not some 10dps hammer that is a joke....IE DPS capeable to some extent.

Give druids a few faster heals... raise their Ch's by 15 to 25 percent each... and Give them 50 percent rez so they can at least act as a priest and keep their group alive on the occasional accidental death.... possibly add an AA group heal that isnt HOT with a shortish refresh time if its a crappy heal or a longish refresh time if its a stronger heal.

Doing these few things alone would IMO make the classes much more even then they presently are.

I will say however that To say druids heals overall are subpar is an obvious statement... they are meant to be subpar... if they werent you would be clerics. The extent of the difference is what is important and frankly you cant continually throw bones at one class to attempt to fix problems. Balance comes from adjusting ALL classes that are affected and not only 1 class that needs improvement. Druids got miniCH's ...AND got the healing penalty removed. Clerics got their CH nerfed and got a joke hammer.... equality? I think not.

Full Reply Later but Hyv.

You have also got since Luclin 2 Complete New Spell Lines.
Spell Casting Haste, and Bulwark of Vie.

Haste coming with hammer and being a potent tool.

Originally posted by HvyarmsSteelfists
skills and abilities between the two. Literally the only thing druids dont have that clerics do is as follows.

Rez.
Quick Quick heals.
Group Heals.

......


Better AC (one of our clerics is at 1600 AC, i am at 1200 or something)
WAY better melee (i am no kidding, you ever saw an cleric meleeing in a guk adventure?, beside this a cleric in PvP who know his **** is bad bad bad =)..)
And you have pretty good healing tools we dont have.

DArb., Bonus to heals, DA/DB/DC and several other stuff. I play a cleric also from time to time if we lack clerics, and the healing power a cleric have is complete differnt to mine.

Last time, one of our clerics played a druid. The same cleric i had a long discussion while flying from stockholm to hamburg about druids and their healing powers.

First tell i got from him was... You heals suck, i want my cleric back.

Tubby

Invis...

Always my favourite. Both in these contexts and in teh context od some Cleric whining about how they need someone to cast invis on them. Every class in teh game has had invis since level 1. The potions are sold in a myriad of places for a pittance. If, as a 65 Elemental flagged Cleric, you have not managed to acquire a clicky invis by now, go buy a couple backpacks worth of these potions and keep them stocked and with you at all times. You don't see me crying about not having shrink on raids and begging for some shaman to join my group and shrink me. There are solutions out there, go use them and stop crying about it. P.S. when CH, EE and SR comes in a bottle that I can use, I'll stop complaining about healing too.

As I stated were better at raiding So bulwark of vie was included in that... in regular groups bulwark of vie is of no use to any cleric IMO since we can already easily handle heals and dont need an inefficient "runetype" spell to help us heal... they should give druids Bulwark of Vie imo... and The Spell Casting Haste came as part of the POP expansion and not when the nerf happened... and the spell casting haste imo is decent at best... on raids its nice... for wizards or druids and such its nice to reduce cast time... but by no means does it increase our classes power substantially..... or help us solo or preform dps in any manner.

If you really want to start a crying fest about invis then we can... however Its not like im an idiot... I carry backpacks full of instant invis all the time and have a GVD..... its not the question of not having it at this point... its the question of why cant they just add it too our spell lineup and stop using our class as THE money sink of the game. Pittance you say? pittance... maybe if you had been buying these things from the beginning of the game you wouldnt think so... what do druids have to buy daily... NOTHING... over the last year on invis potions alone ive spent at LEAST 20k.... on potions.... then throw in our Dot costs because no one cares that that costs us money too and we end up spending near 50ish k a year... is that fair to us? Who cares if money is easy to get at this level... what if your not able to farm stuff worth mad cash... IE the normal cleric... is it fair to them to assume they will have 50k to blow through on a yearly basis? And this is a very low estimate might I add.


On another note.. you can play with it as long as you like but when it comes down to it for groups... Clerics can heal... and thats it... and druids can heal OR be a dps class... and thats where the imbalance lies.


***adding on

Better AC (one of our clerics is at 1600 AC, i am at 1200 or something)
WAY better melee (i am no kidding, you ever saw an cleric meleeing in a guk adventure?, beside this a cleric in PvP who know his **** is bad bad bad =)..)
And you have pretty good healing tools we dont have.

DArb., Bonus to heals, DA/DB/DC and several other stuff. I play a cleric also from time to time if we lack clerics, and the healing power a cleric have is complete differnt to mine.

Last time, one of our clerics played a druid. The same cleric i had a long discussion while flying from stockholm to hamburg about druids and their healing powers.

First tell i got from him was... You heals suck, i want my cleric back.

Tubby


As for our melle... I would outright laugh at you, but I think I'll explain this to you since you simply may not know. Clerics dont melle... we hit for ****.... we melle with our hammer that procs... the proc is basically the ONLY dps it does... the hammer with us melle'n puts us parsed at aroudn 7 to 15 dps... soemwhere in that range... If you call that good melle'n then wow pallys are ubah then. We may melle better than druids ... only because of the hammer proc... but besides that its complete crap.

Yep sure do have better ac....However, the difference in how fast we die in earth for example compared to how fast you die if a mob agro's is negligable at best. The only main diff is we can throw on a div or quick heal ourselves faster which is why we may live and you may not.... and this leads me into your next point.

Div's I forgot your right there... druids dont have div's yep :P

As for Divarb if your gonna start bringing main aa's as skills into the mix then I would like Dire charm and Instant Evac plz.

And for the last point.. as I said your heals are subpar, However go from a druid to a cleric and try doing dps and see what you have to say about that...

First tell I would get from you would be "Your dps sucks, i want my druid back."

Better AC (one of our clerics is at 1600 AC, i am at 1200 or something)
WAY better melee (i am no kidding, you ever saw an cleric meleeing in a guk adventure?, beside this a cleric in PvP who know his **** is bad bad bad =)..)


He who defines the question, wins on the merits. Stop talking their language. Listing a bunch of skills, all of which are mostly irrellevant, is the Cleric's way of justifying thier supremecy on the most important aspect of the game. You start playing their game, and talking about utter non-sense stuff like AC and Melee abilities, and you are heading down the path that justifies the woe-is-me Cleric's position that they have to completely dominate healing or risk becoming irrelevant.

The dichotemy remains.

1. Clerics are never desired over Druyids or Shaman in groups. In LDoN normal adventures, give me a Paladin or two and I don't need any other healing, or slowing for that matter. I act as the main caster of the big heal (iCH) and nuke a lot. The Paly's take care of the occasional group heal to top folks off.

2. Clerics have a complete lock on raids. The guild leader of one of the top guilds on my server decided they are close to beating one of the time level LDoN raids. His desired force constists of 12 Clerics. 1/3 of all available slots. That is an extreme example, to be sure, but there is no other class in the game when raiding any content in existance where any guildleader would think that they needed more than 2 or 3. There are pleanty of raids that never happen because 3 clerics is just not enough. You want 6 or more.

Both of these situations are stupid. There should be content for groups where having a Cleric is highly desireable, or at least there should be content where a group would equally want a Cleric, Druid or Shaman, possibly based on the composition of the rest of the group. The reality is that there is not. Druids are better than Clerics for groups in pretty much all cases, with the possible exception of a group otherwise composed of 5 pure melee and DPS casters.

It should be the case that raiding requires 1-2 Clerics and the rest of the "healing" slots can be a mishmash of priest classes. That is also not the case.

SoE's solution to Cleric balancing is always 1. More and better healing, 2. Giving them some other critical spells (BoR and Vie). If they gave #1 to Shaman and Druids and #2 to Clerics, they would fix the game. You would want a couple Druids for their buffs and debuffs, a couple Shaman for the same and a couple Clerics for their Buffs and specialty healing (I still believe the way Clerics should be #1 in healing is diversity, not strength). Then the rest of the healing (as every priest would have CH, some EE and some group driect heal) would be sprad to the vrious priest classes at the raid. (btw. Druids have some SR in NI, though it needs to be just a tad faster with a base cast of 3.25 not 3.75 and some form of CH in KR - though it needs buffing up a bit too, Shaman have a form of SE in Quiecence, now they need a group version, etc.). Give the other priests real healing abilities, on par with, but not as diverse as, Clerics.

The flip side. Vie, BoR and Symbol are sufficient reseason to need a couple Clerics at every raid. They are not enough to make Clerics desirable in groups. The problem here is content and the RvR formula of XP/LDoN. Level and ZEM are not a good way to calculate the XP given off a mob. Special abilities - AE's, Immunities, Melee ranges, HPs - those are good ways of determining the worth of a mob. As long as the best rewards are given for the easiest content (as is currently the case for XP/LDoN), the healing power and effciency of Clerics will never be desired.

It is probably too much to ask that SoE actually make RvR meaningful, so the only other solution is to give Clerics something that makes them meaningful in a world where trivial content is the most rewarding. Since the game is not terribly complicated, there are not many ways this can be done, so probably the best is real DPS. It is not required to be nukes, but Clerics already have a lone of Magic based nukes that could be tweeked up. Their stun line is also pretty good, maybe that could be pumped up some to. Finally, maybe Clerics could get a second line of nukes or Dots in the Disease or Fire line (two lines that have some "historical" fanatsy basis.)

Anyway, none of this will ever happen, but its fun discussing it I guess.

Sigh, I agree with nearly all that post :(

Only problem is that the most important fact comes at the bottom of the post "None of this will ever happen".

Bingo :(

double post

Originally posted by HvyarmsSteelfists
As for our melle... I would outright laugh at you, but I think I'll explain this to you since you simply may not know. Clerics dont melle... we hit for ****.... we melle with our hammer that procs... the proc is basically the ONLY dps it does... the hammer with us melle'n puts us parsed at aroudn 7 to 15 dps... soemwhere in that range... If you call that good melle'n then wow pallys are ubah then. We may melle better than druids ... only because of the hammer proc... but besides that its complete crap.


Well. As i said, try undead mobs with your Hammer of Damnation.
A 26/18 weapon with a unresistable proc for 75-150 dmg, which procs like MAD, isnt that bad =)

Together with an 30% selfhaste (YaulpVI) + an 41% haste item you would be surprised how well you can manage undead mobs with pure melee.

And thats a bit more than 7 to 15 dps.

But anyway. I really dont want to discuss with you about your melee abilitys, i just think you should maybe try it by yourself, and not only for 2 minutes and then forget it. Alot Clerics melee if they dont have to heal. Not on Raids, but in XP Groups =)

Using AA Abilites. Well, we talked about healing, didnt we? About Healing Tools. Divine Arb. *IS* an healing tool. I am not sure what DC or Exodus has to do with it.

The only AA you could demand druids get - talking about healing aa's - you dont have is Spirit of the Wood.. Oh wait, you have a AA of this kind allready (Celestrial Regeneration)

Anyway. Dont get me wrong. I dont complain about my healing. I am a Druid, not a Cleric.

But there still remains the fact, that watching guildrooster a guild needs to many clerics, way to many. It simply cant be, that you can start a raid with 3 warrior, 3 shms, 3 enchanter 3..., but you need 6-8 clerics to keep the groups allive.

Its unbalanced the demand on clerics is to high.

The only things i wish for my druid is simple.

I want some tools to get rid of my healing agro. I dont even want that they change our "CH"s, or that they give us a faster fastheal. Just give me some tools to get rid of healing agro. Jolt, SCS or your DA.

By the way. Clerics survive - thanks to your AC + Tools - healing agro way better than Druids. I rarly die as an Cleric if i get agro, but i die 80% of the time on my druid.


Tubben

Maybe you dont understand melle calculations but when you have 400 attack I dont care if you have 200 haste... your dps will suck. Cleric dps even with EVERYTHING you listed when melle'n is around 10ish to 20ish dps.... maybe just maybe if you use your hammer and have ever enhancement and are fighting undead you *might be able to hit 25 dps with melle'n... but thats REALLY stretching it. Many parse tests have been done... we rarely ever "hit" a mob... only proc on them. and if we do hit its for 20ish or 50ish and crap like that... if you dont believe check out the cleric forums for complete parse tests... were better off nuking with our crappy mr nukes and medding inbetween then melle'n by FAR.

Next point... Maybe you didnt read my post but it was about TOTAL balance and not just healing... hence why it kept saying clerics need more dps tools... IE DC and exodus is another utility item that you have which is why I included it... as a powerfull aa skill. And if you want to be "strict" about it div arb isnt a healing tool... its a "balancing" tool... it doesnt heal 1 hp... it just balances life. Maybe YOU need to read posts a little more through before posting if you are going to attempt to debate me about why I included aa's.


And again for your next point as stated time and time again clerics are STILL more powerful on raids and there is no denying this... however Druids IMO are more powerful and groups and most would agree to some extent at least...

TO say druids arent needed or useful on raids however is ridiculous... they are good healers to some degree good dps and good kiters.

And again As i said... the only reason we survive is OUR TOOLS... our ac does CRAP... a cleric will die just a little tiny bit slower then a druid in earth when a mob is beating on them... the difference is we can div or quickly heal ourselves which is why we dont die.


The above information I have posted is accurate as far as I can tell from playing both classes for the last 3 years as well as looking and studying parses as well as simply learning each class. And let me make this clear... just because some cleric sits there and pulls out there hammer and melle's doesnt mean he is somehow now doing actual dps... a cleric sitting back nuking occasionally almost DEFINATELY is doing more dps... and still its crap.



If you dont believe me here is a post of actual parses done and these were the average values calculated.

http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12987&highlight=hammer+parse

Only read the first few pages so this might've been said already..in my opinion the only thing we need is a group heal, weaker than a cleric's but better than the paladins version.

A druid healing his group in an ae fight would use 3k mana using NI (excluding focuses n stuff) to top up each person, paladin's group heal costs 850 mana, 2 casts would equal 1 NI, so thats only 1700 mana for a paladin to heal his group.

I dont want anymore regen type heals, they suck and take up another buff slot.

Other than that i think we're fine on healing.

With the Level 63 Hammer, I can sustain 35 - 40 DPS (40 against Undead Mobs). This is how what the DPS is broken down into and I don't have specific numbers for any of these categories anymore.

True melee (you swing and connect)
Bash
Hammer of the Gods Proc
Hammer Pet
Mark of the Righteous (34 point Reverse DS cast on the mob)
Aegis of Bathezid (25 point DS that lasts ~25 minutes)

This includes refreshing Yaulp 6 as necessary and a 36% Haste Item (Shissar Arcanist Sash).

So 40 DPS is our "amazing" sustainable melee against Undead. Obviously, if I start to Nuke and/or DOT, I can increase that by a large margin by at this point I lose the ability to sustain that DPS. If I'm just adding DPS in a group setting, this number plummets since my Aegis of Bathezid will be factored out. Mark of the Righteous may or may not be cast, if mobs are being Slowed, MOR will not be cast. If Mobs are dying before they can swing and conncect ~15 times, MOR will not be cast.

Finally, remember that Proc damage is totally at the whim of the RNG. At times you will Proc on every single swing for 20 swings and other times you'll go 30 swings with 0 Procs. And the final final thing is that the Hammer Pet is currently bugged and broken and totally worthless.

Anyway, do whatever you want with this info. I just saw people bringing up incorrect Cleric Melee info and I had to correct it.

If you're a tank below 10K (that includes tanks at 9750), then druid healing is probably still relatively fine. If you're a paladin with more than 6K hp, druid healing is definitely still fine. Remember the original premise. If true tank HPs were capped at 10K, we probably wouldn't be needing to have this discussion.

This post just points out what I was going to address: Druid's iCH functions almost identically to a higher priced CH for that vast majority of tanks.

Like Madrone was saying, CH doesn't land at 5%-10% health. Most of the time, a CH will land on me at 40% health or so. That is a 5k hp heal for me, and the average tank is going to have less hp than that. Most servers generally have only a handfull of tanks that have enough hp to make it an issue at all. You can't balance the 350 level 65 druids on a server against the 20-30 tanks with 10k hp.

For the vast majority of tanks, and the vast majority of druids, KR is essentially going to be CH at a 50% mana premium. Imagine PoV_group_01 has a tank with 7000hp. KR will never hit the 5616 cap of a druid with maxed AHA. It would require a tank with 7488hp to ever hit the cap, and KR would have to land with the tank below 25% health. Reducing the cost of KR to 400 would mean that the vast majority of druids heal functionally the same as clerics for xp grouping, with the caveat that obviously druids don't have the depth of healing (fast heals, HoTs) that clerics do.

Druid's healing cannot be balanced against the top 2-5% of the game without consideration for the other 90+%.

There have been many times that I have had a druid healing me in PoE and the vast majority of those KRs topped me. Of course, the druid also added considerable DPS from little DC dillo, damage shield, and nukes. You really think reducing the cost of KR to match CH would be balanced?

A druid healing his group in an ae fight would use 3k mana using NI (excluding focuses n stuff) to top up each person, paladin's group heal costs 850 mana, 2 casts would equal 1 NI, so thats only 1700 mana for a paladin to heal his group.

I read this and wanted to comment. AE heals have slowly taken one of my primary raid roles away from we with SoTW, CR, and paragon. Our guild uses SoTW rotations (and CR on some mobs) to offset AE damage on the vast majority of AE mobs. The last time we killed Blazzax, I didn't have to cast a single group heal because AE heals (SoTW, CR, and paragon) kept up with damage just fine. My group heals may be more efficient than using single heals on all group members, but those group heals are being used less and less.

No one here wants cleric healing power. That's downright obvious. However, there are a number of us who have to accept the responsibility of the cleric's role, whether we like to or not. We do what we have to do for the people around us...and that's what the issue is about. We utterly refuse to accept this defiency in the "tools" given to us. If they're going to consider us priests, at least make us capable ones.

What we lack of? We got ch, we our our version of cleric's CR ( sotw, but recast time need to change to 15 minutes), we got our Quick heal. Sure the heals are not as mana wise as the clerics. But we can do the job that is given to us. We can keep the groups up most of the times np, we can be used on CH chains. We don't have da, db or whatever clerics have. That's cause we not specialized in Healing. we just part of priest class.


thats far and away off topic. Are you saying you want MORE clerics in eq? dear god theres too many as there is!

Clerics ARE the number one healing class in eq, but, like shamans are slowers, they are not the only ones! There are 4 defined roles in a holy trinity group. Slower (shaman, chanter, bst, bards sometimes), tank (war, sk, pal, rangers and monks sometimes), dps (*), and healer (cleric, druid, shaman).

All of those rolls have clearly defined top dogs, in them, however tanks and slowers obviously have 2nd rate performers close behind them. Can a paladin tank only 38% of what a warrior can? (no warrior arguments here please), can a chanter slow only 38% as good as a shaman? SoE or Verant made it fairly obvious that druids are the 2nd best healers in the game. Why then are the tools they gave us so sub par compared to the top? In other departments the disparity is what, 20% max between 1st and 2nd? the majority (if not all) the druids here havent even asked to be 80% of a cleric, not even close. even 50% would be better than what we are at now. Hell even shamans need a leg up, a new CH for them at 64 was apparently planned and never implemented, and i for one think they should have gotten it (even though it would of course never be as powerful as ours, due to them getting supah Q)

Shaman slows 75%, chanter slows 70%
warrior tanks anything, paladin tanks... almost anything *cough* (hate to argue this in a time where warriors need a leg up, but i bet the arguement will still hold after the changes)
too many dps classes to really compare, but is there even a 50% difference between highest dps class (mage/wizard/whatever, too many factors) and the lowest? (druids maybe? hehe i kid i kid =P)
cleric heals at a 18.75/1 mana ratio, druid heals at 7.75

one of those four includes a huuuge gaping whole in the difference between the best and the 2nd best, can anyone spot it, anyone at all?

ive hated healing.... all my druidly life, but ive been having to do it more and more often lately as our gimp clerics havent gotten all the flags for elementals/sol ro and such, and its becoming really evident to me, our healing is arse.



Sorry but I think you are the one who is off topic. You can't compare class blanance and what they specialize that way. Slower is slow, heal is heal, tank is tank. They are totally different things. You can just say cause clerics have a say 75% good ch heal or whatever and you want a 70% one. the different is small here. Where in slow shammys and chanters use different resists. Shammys can also survive if the slow went wrong or something, where in chanter's part. is a whole different story.


Give druids a few faster heals... raise their Ch's by 15 to 25 percent each... and Give them 50 percent rez so they can at least act as a priest and keep their group alive on the occasional accidental death.... possibly add an AA group heal that isnt HOT with a shortish refresh time if its a crappy heal or a longish refresh time if its a stronger heal.

Hmm why would we need a faster heal? Ni is fast enough for me at most of the times. 50% rez? No thanks. I know we had this rez thingie thread a while back. Alot of druids don't want rezs. Sotw to 15 minutes and a small group heal spell should be good enough. Imo anyways. I stil get why we need a better ch. I can heal time geared tanks fine with my KR. what's need to be done? maybe we should fix the ch good enough so people can put us on CH chains?

One of you Clerics, or Druids like Nolinel...

Explain to me how Karana's Renewal being lowered to 480 to 500 Mana would in any way upset, or cost Clerics ANYTHING.

Even if it was a CH/alternative ((which by the end of the game it isnt only gealing 4750 and not 7500)) it would still be 20 to 25
more mana per cast.

Net effect here, would be a druid's Mana Regen and MP reduced by 20-25% instead of 33%. So instead of the 6K MP Druid with FT15 = 4k MP FT Neg 2 Cleric, it would more be like 5k Cleric
with FT 7ish.

BTW: Nolinal if you have never had the opportunity to play a cleric you don't know what your missing at 1.5 second cast time heal.
Its amazing. Id say 50% of the time I see someone dying, they'd live if I had that option. Plus its always fun to sound my spot hotkey... Spot Heal inc in 2.8 only to see 2 clerics SR after i started, and still land first, and I heal a whopping Zero.

Further, its not a whole different story comparing tank to tank, or slower to slower. Either way, its all about EFFICIENCY and there is a HUGE gap between cleric and druid. Way way more than between any other segment of the game.

Everyone asking for a boost to KR has one HUGE, flatal flaw in their argument: not everyone groups with elemental tanks. All of your arguments assume cleric cheal lands for 7.5k+ on every class. It doesn't. It may shock you, but there are 65 tanks that still only have 6-7k fully buffed. Cheal will heal 3-4k. Even the ele pally with 9k hp stated cheal usually hits sub 5k. You want the mana cost of KR to be reduced, stating cheal will still have an advantage.

Cheal: 400 mana, 10 sec cast, 3-4k healed
KR: 400 mana, 10 sec cast, 3-4k healed

It's exactly the same. There would be zero advantage. Your attempts to boost your end game healing in the top 4 zones of the game would completely screw over balance for all casual players. The heals ARE balanced for the vast majority of players.

I would, however, not have a problem with HG getting crits. It would allow druids to hit the occasional 11k heal, giving them a bit more healing power at the higher end. (But I'm also in the camp that thinks clerics should get innate crit heals, as wizzies get crit nukes and warriors get crit melee).

Originally posted by Llenyd
Everyone asking for a boost to KR has one HUGE, flatal flaw in their argument: <snip>
Cheal: 400 mana, 10 sec cast, 3-4k healed
KR: 400 mana, 10 sec cast, 3-4k healed


i belive you are the one to have a fatal flaw in your argument, as kr is 600 mana, not 400. also if you have a tank with only 4k hp, you should be using TR, not KR, which is 2.9k hp healed. either way, how would this screw over the balance for casual players? it wouldnt. we still wouldnt be even close to clerical healing power. If you were to change KR to be 500 mana, the mana ratio would be roughly half of what a cleric CH is. Please someone tell me how that is broken, id like to hear a good argument.

As much as id like NI to be faster, i think i just need to get a casting haste item and try it out then =).

HG affecting iCH would not fix anything either, anything relying on the rng is not a good way to balance things, lets look at taunt shall we? or not =P

Its tiresome to hear clerics scream bloody murder when any positive druid changes are suggested, especially since they are the ones who got druid healing aggro nerfed in the first place. One of the original reasons the high mana cost on KR was appropriate was because of its low aggro, which is no longer the case as it has approximately equal aggro to CH while healing alot less and costing 1.5x as much. Also, druids didnt get in an uproar when the worthless clerics AA heal was changed to a group heal far superior to SotW, yet god forbid lowering the mana cost on KR or allowing HG to work on it.

As a level 65 druid I find I can be a capable healer in all but a few situations. Just to give you my situation, I am in an elemental guild, I have ft14, around 5k mana, about 70aaxp. I have only rescently moved to an elemental guild and started getting the good equipment. Less than 3 months ago I was at ft2 with 4k mana.

XP groups

Normal LDoN missions are now pretty easy if im grouped with people from my guild. Chances are Ill have to spot heal/CH every few mins when the MA starts getting a bit low.

If I join a pickup group with non elemental equipped tanks that is when we start having more problems. Firstly I need to heal them more, using up more of my mana. Secondly they dont have the high aggro weapons so either I through additional healing, or other members of the group pull aggro from the MA needing me to spot heal more people and using up my mana faster. In this situation a cleric is far better equipped to deal with healing several people at once, and using low aggro heals.

Ch Rotations

Druids are bad at them. Our CH is just not efficient enough to cast for an extended period of time. We nomally use druids for a rampage rotation on the likes of magmaton. With ft14 and around 5kmana I can cope with the duration of that fight, although if I wasnt on a mount chances are I'd run oom before the end.

A couple of weeks ago, we took out the emp using a 3 cleric 2 druid 1 shammy rot (we were short on healers). With a 400 mana heal with healing specilisation, bard mana song, use of mod rods and well timed rotation you never burn mana. By the time it is your turn to heal again you have pretty much regained all but 1% of your mana used last cast. Using KR for 600 mana each cast your loosing maybe 5%. Over a 15-20 min fight like the emp thats enough to have the druid in a rotation oom half way through the fight. Because the emp dosnt hit too hard, we choose to go with TR, there would have been no way for us to maintain a KR rot for that length of fight.

I have a level 49 cleric hydra, not particularly well equipped, about 230wis, with 0ft. I was helping out an old guild of mine killing vindi. I was using both my chars in the CH rot. The sad this is my level 49 cleric only ran oom 2 heals before my druid. 16 levels difference, ft14, scm3, mc3, mana pres, 100wis/1500 extra mana and I am 2 heals better than a level 49 cleric. Thats just not right, and on top of that, the cleric is the one keeping the MA alive being as she is fully healing the tank and my druid isnt. I was using KR as opposed to TR for this fight.


Just a comparative study. I dont really like doing CH chains but it would be nice if I was conciderably better than my barly played hydra at them.


What would I like to see changed.

HG working with iCH

SOTW scrapped - I want paragon, I'd sooner have the mana regen as the damage shield.

Group heal would be nice, but if we had a faster refreshing aa group heal I could live with that.

Reduce the cost of KR by 100. Please make my 65 druid with ft14, 5k mana better than a low 50s cleric in a CH rot.

SOTW scrapped - I want paragon, I'd sooner have the mana regen as the damage shield.

hmm no thats a Beastlord spell...might aswell ask for c3 aswell if you want that....or slow.

Maybe change the refresh time on sotw at most.

Reduce the cost of KR by 100. Please make my 65 druid with ft14, 5k mana better than a low 50s cleric in a CH rot.

Id rather the complete opposite...i dont want to get into a roation chain if I can help it. Druids are just so much more than just healing in a chain.

Would be one good way to make me want to quit my druid if I was stuck in a CH chain on a raid.

No offense clerics just If i wanted to do that as Ive said many times before id have made a cleric.

Tils

SOTW scrapped - I want paragon, I'd sooner have the mana regen as the damage shield.

That was a more tongue in cheak comment rather than I literally want paragon. Call it whatever, but I'd rather have a faster recast spell, the mana regen element would be really nice but not necessary.


Id rather the complete opposite...i dont want to get into a roation chain if I can help it. Druids are just so much more than just healing in a chain.

I said the same myself, I dont like being in CH chains. Its probably the biggest cause of burnout for clerics and why guild use mainly bot clerics for rot duties.

That said ,we have a utility role, we can do a bit of everything, personally I specialised in evoc and casting fury before healing just because I prefer that side of things. I dont want to be permanantly stuck doing a CH rot, but in the times we are required to do so, it would be nice to be better at it than a level 50 cleric.

Its tiresome to hear clerics scream bloody murder when any positive druid changes are suggested, especially since they are the ones who got druid healing aggro nerfed in the first place. For the record, there was a single thread created on EQClerics about Healing Aggro on the percentage heals. This single thread was created months before the Healing Aggro FIX and that single thread was created by a Druid on our boards. Not a Cleric.

And as I stated, it was a fix. Percentage based heals were generating zero aggro before the fix. That was broken. Healing should always create aggro.

corlathist saidyou don't know what your missing at 1.5 second cast time heal.1.8 seconds ;) The lowest druids patch can get down to ,from base 3.8 seconds, is if having Quickening of Mithaniel (30% Beneficial Spell Haste) and Blessing of Reverence, wich totals with 40% spell haste. That makes 3.8-(3.8*0.4)=2.28 (2.3 rounded). This makes Supernal Remedy a full 0.5 seconds faster than the druids "fast" heal will -ever- be, and that's a life saver.
When they decided to lower the recast time on the other classes Heal Over Time AAs, and skipped the druids, I think they made a major mistake. They were right in making the Cleric Celestial Regeneration AA TGBable, since they needed that, but then lowering it to 15 minutes, along with Beastlords Paragon also to 15 minutes, and just ignoring the druids is just lame.

A lot of people keep talking about the CH's, and oddly enough ONLY they CH's. I almost never ever use CH, it's simple not worth the time it's used to cast, in the middle of a fight (I'm talking about most raid fights here).

Why do some people keep bringing up the Ressurection spells? I think it's lame that paladins have Ressurection spells, I don't want any Ressurection spells, Ressurections should be limited to -only- clerics (and Necromancers with their Essence Emeralds).

About the heals, group heals more specifically, why is it that paladins have better group healing abilities, as a tank class, than druids have, as a priest class?


Things that I think druids are entitled to get (or get changed) are:

1. Lower recast on Spirit of the Wood to 15 minutes, to keep it in line with every other class's AA heal. (This should have been done at the same time as the rest, SOE ie just being lame here).
2. Give druids a decent group heal, one that is -better- than paladin group heal, cause they are tank class, they should not be able to outheal druids.
I was thinking something along the lines of the paladins group heal, but with lower recast, and/or more hp healed.

Things I think wouldn't offbalance druids by giving them, but that I don't find that important.

1. (This one I actually think should be under "entitled to get", but I'm not going to be greedy, this time ;) ) Less heal agro from using Nature's Infusion. Personally I would prefer that druids get Spell Casting Sublety, since this would not only require us to work for less agro, but would also benefit our versatility as DPS/Healer.
2a.Lower casting time on Nature's Infusion (and Tnarg's Mending?) from 3.8 seconds to 3.0 seconds. This would -with the very best spell haste gear in the game- lower the casting time to 1.8 seconds, and make it a life saver.
2b.Lower mana cost on Nature's Infusion from 500 to 400 (450?), this goes instead of the lowering of the casting time. I personally prefer 2a, since it's more of a lifesaver, but this would at least be able to let druids go longer in their (at least what most druids in my guild do) patch roles.
3. Give us a bear pet equivilant to the shaman wolf pet (level 58, instead of level 28 thanks) ;)
4. Lower mana cost on Karana's Renewal from 600 to 500, still 100 more mana than Cleric Complete Healing, and still way less HP healed.

Originally posted by Kagonis
corlathist said1.8 seconds ;) The lowest druids patch can get down to ,from base 3.8 seconds, is if having Quickening of Mithaniel (30% Beneficial Spell Haste) and Blessing of Reverence, wich totals with 40% spell haste. That makes 3.8-(3.8*0.4)=2.28 (2.3 rounded). This makes Supernal Remedy a full 0.5 seconds faster than the druids "fast" heal will -ever- be, and that's a life saver.

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Nod, and having Quickening of mithanel which is on maybe 3 or 4 items is rare as can be to boot.

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1. (This one I actually think should be under "entitled to get", but I'm not going to be greedy, this time ;) ) Less heal agro from using Nature's Infusion. Personally I would prefer that druids get Spell Casting Sublety, since this would not only require us to work for less agro, but would also benefit our versatility as DPS/Healer.
2a.Lower casting time on Nature's Infusion (and Tnarg's Mending?) from 3.8 seconds to 3.0 seconds. This would -with the very best spell haste gear in the game- lower the casting time to 1.8 seconds, and make it a life saver.
2b.Lower mana cost on Nature's Infusion from 500 to 400 (450?), this goes instead of the lowering of the casting time. I personally prefer 2a, since it's more of a lifesaver, but this would at least be able to let druids go longer in their (at least what most druids in my guild do) patch roles.
3. Give us a bear pet equivilant to the shaman wolf pet (level 58, instead of level 28 thanks) ;)
4. Lower mana cost on Karana's Renewal from 600 to 500, still 100 more mana than Cleric Complete Healing, and still way less HP healed.


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Personally, my order of need is:
1) KR lowered to 480 to 500 Mana ((20-25% more than CH))

Yes, I HATE chains. Posted as much on my guilds board. BUT,
I want to be able to do them when needed. I'm tired of seeing
we need to have 2 or 3 clerics per druid on a raid. I also want to be able to XP closer in efficiency to a cleric. Not 30% lower kill rates.

Look through this thread. Can you believe a Level 49 Cleric
with no gear, lasted 2 Heals less than an Elemental Ft14 Cleric?
I can. I've seen the same, many times. There is ZERO rational
reason for a gap this size.

On top of it KR sucks for 61+ spell. Wow, 7% better than TR.
Whoop de do.


2) Some way to heal group better

Group heal would work.
So would a HOT thats weaker than Quiessence/CE.
This needs for balance to be weaker than Shaman HOT by same amount that our Direct Heals are better than Shaman Direct heals.
Say 200 mana/200-250 a tic 4 second ((like CE)). With enough AAs this would dramatically help me healing group. This would have a lot less agro then trying to group heal with NI

3) Some agro management tool.

As for clerics and thier group desirability and ldon.....

1st) Ill grant that clerics can be done without when someone is bottom feeding on content way weaker then them. IE: elemental and time geared people doing normal.

HOWEVER, in at least 2 themes Guk/MMC you can do decent DPS
vs undead. ((Your anti undead 4.0 Ratio Nuke, is the EXACT same nuke that I a druid use in Tak))

However, many groups still prefer a rezzer anyways in a dungeon. Sure you can get a rez afterwards, but who wants to wait 30 minutes for a corpse to spit out. ((Yes elemental+ bottom feeders die...usually because when we do those dungeons we do them sloppy. Rushing rooms of4 to 8 mobs and having fun. Occassionally stuff goes wrong)) Or when the Mage charms in Tak, gives full pet toys and buffs to pet. Then dies faster than a druid can heal. Lol.

2nd) Clerics are gold for Hard. Rezzing is often necessary.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW: to the cleric who said what else have Clerics got since druids got ICHs.... they got Pacification fixed, and Harmony Nerfed.

This is the same period that Lull line was fixed to actually work well. Harmony lost all of its other advantages outdoors over Pacification. And yet, now pacification is wonderful for LDON.

((its good for pulling/splitting if you need it... But my usual use with a cleric is on Assassination where once the boss spawns we just pacifiy to it, shaving 10 to 30 minutes off an adventure. ))

------------------------------------------------------------------

anyway, clerics often don't like to push thier advantages.
But they are there.

Hmm, i'm a cleric, so i'm probably going to get flamed.

I personally would have no problem with KR being 500 Mana. 600 is pretty harsh.

But while 400 mana would be in balance with Time or Elemental geared people, it would totally break the situation for casual players.

Casual tanks, even at 65, have 4-6k HP, buffed. KR at 400 mana would heal as well as CH does, at least when the tank is over 25% when the heal hits.

There still remains the aggro issue, this needs to be looked into more than the HP healed/mana issue.

I would think something like this would be balanced:

-KR at 500 mana
-Make an very expensive AA or a Elemental+ drop that reduces the mana cost to 400. At the level you get that, tanks will have the HP, so that there will be a difference in Cleric/Druid HP healed
- Reduce cast time of SoTW to 15 min
- Reduce Aggro on KR/TR to Cleric CH level

That leaves clerics some reason for existence besides rezzing at all levels, but should fix most of the druids problems.

Nindor

Hmm, i'm a cleric, so i'm probably going to get flamed.

Id hope not for that reason cause if someone flames someone here because their a cleric or some other class ill mod em back to freeport :P

Point is peoples opinions are welcome here whatever class...hopefully its the opinions rather than the fact someone is xx other class their getting responded to.

Tils

Originally posted by princess0fdiabl0
i belive you are the one to have a fatal flaw in your argument, as kr is 600 mana, not 400.

You want the mana cost of KR to be reduced, stating cheal will still have an advantage.

Cheal: 400 mana, 10 sec cast, 3-4k healed
KR: 400 mana, 10 sec cast, 3-4k healed

It's exactly the same. There would be zero advantage.

KR should not be 600 mana. Make it 400.

As suggested by others, all that really needs to be done is lower mana cost of KR to 500 or 400 mana

Reading comprehension is your friend. I didn't state KR is 400, I stated many druids want it reduced as such. My argument is 100% completely sound.

One huge point that most of the posters here are missing is that clerics don’t scale well. You compare a level 65 druid with 300 AA to a level 49 cleric on a healing chain and they seem to be fairly similar. You then assume that a level 65 cleric with 300 will be much more powerful than that level 49 cleric for efficient healing. Unfortunately this isn’t the case.

We still use the same spell at L49 and L65, so no difference there.

On a raid I can expect to have around 90 mana regen (horse, VoQ, AE bard song, Pot9, SD) before even considering my equipment. Whether I add another 15 (max FT) on top of that or not isn’t going to make or break matters.

Most of the time I am at full mana, and on a CH chain I generally expect to regen to full mana between heals, so whether my mana pool is 1k, or 6k again makes no difference.

In fact, the only thing that really does make a difference is whether the cleric has SCM3 or not.

Briefly I will also mention that cleric melee dps is about the same from L60 with no AA to level 65 with 500AA (a 13% increase from SCF1-3/MOM1-3 is the only difference).

Even in an xp group I’m looking at 50 mana regen (VoQ, pot9, horse) before buffs so FT isn’t massive, and for an extended session the mana regen rates are the limiting factor, rather than the size of the mana pool.

While it may be wrong that a L65/max AA/well equipped druid is worse than a L65/no AA/poorly equipped cleric, it is also wrong that if that cleric gets 500AA and great equipment he won’t be significantly better.

Originally posted by AmonraSet
One huge point that most of the posters here are missing is that clerics don’t scale well. You compare a level 65 druid with 300 AA to a level 49 cleric on a healing chain and they seem to be fairly similar. You then assume that a level 65 cleric with 300 will be much more powerful than that level 49 cleric for efficient healing. Unfortunately this isn’t the case.

We still use the same spell at L49 and L65, so no difference there.

On a raid I can expect to have around 90 mana regen (horse, VoQ, AE bard song, Pot9, SD) before even considering my equipment. Whether I add another 15 (max FT) on top of that or not isn’t going to make or break matters.

Most of the time I am at full mana, and on a CH chain I generally expect to regen to full mana between heals, so whether my mana pool is 1k, or 6k again makes no difference.

In fact, the only thing that really does make a difference is whether the cleric has SCM3 or not.

Briefly I will also mention that cleric melee dps is about the same from L60 with no AA to level 65 with 500AA (a 13% increase from SCF1-3/MOM1-3 is the only difference).

Even in an xp group I’m looking at 50 mana regen (VoQ, pot9, horse) before buffs so FT isn’t massive, and for an extended session the mana regen rates are the limiting factor, rather than the size of the mana pool.

While it may be wrong that a L65/max AA/well equipped druid is worse than a L65/no AA/poorly equipped cleric, it is also wrong that if that cleric gets 500AA and great equipment he won’t be significantly better.

Wow, your the first cleric to overestimate cleric healing power.
Spirtual Dominion (9) Bard Song (21) VOQ (18) Nine (8) = 56 Mana
Horse is 21 Mana.

So if your on a Horse Mana Regen is 77 + FT/MC
Considering CH and SCM your talk 400 Mana -21% = 316 Mana
316/77 = 4.1 Tics for you to come out even. So you are trying to tell me your casting 1 CH per 25 Seconds?

Even up 77 + FT/MC18 + Rods 7.5 = 102.5 per tic 316/102.5
3.0 Tics per CH. to break even.

Sorry to tell you, but there is a Drain Rate, and it is noticible.
I notice those clerics in my guild that are bots/new with FT0 to 8 with FT 4500 - 5000 going out of mana way way before
the FT15 6K MP Clerics.

There's a noticible difference between Top Clerics, Middle Clerics,
Crap Clerics, Low Level 49 Clerics.

Problem is the Healing Order with noticible differences look like
Top clerics > Middle Clerics > Crap Clerics > Top Druids > Level 49 Clerics.

Lower KR to 480 to 500 Mana, and it will look more like this
Top Clerics 6k MP FT15 > Middle Clerics 5500 MP FT10> Top Druids 6k MP FT15 > Crap Clerics 5K MP FT5

>>edit post<< I hate math errors. Heh

VoQ (18) + SD (9) + bard (21) + pot9 (8) is actually 56. A horse is more like 25 than 21, and add to that mod rodding for about 7, plus 1 basic mana regen. Which adds up to 89, all of which anyone on a raid can expect to get.

316 mana per cast with say an 18s delay (6 clerics at 3s which covers the majority of our rotations) gives 267 regen, losing 49 mana per cycle. Given that even the worst mana pool clerics are going to have 2k mana, that’s 32 cycles before going oom, or almost 10 minutes, which should be enough for pretty much any fight. So a L49 cleric with bazaar gear could fill in pretty well. Add FT5 to that (pretty easy to obtain and you’re up to 15 minutes).

In my case (almost max mana regen possible) I can keep up a 16s rotation indefinitely. In fact mana regen is so broken I can chain cast CH for about 15 minutes before I am oom.

BTW: to the cleric who said what else have Clerics got since druids got ICHs.... they got Pacification fixed, and Harmony Nerfed.

I'd like to see some proof of this. I have no idea where you got the idea that Clerics got your Harmony nerfed. Please show me because I have no idea what you're talking about.

This is getting absolutely silly. Druids are blaming Clerics for every single nerf they've ever received without any proof to back this blame up.

Originally posted by AmonraSet
VoQ (18) + SD (9) + bard (21) + pot9 (8) is actually 56. A horse is more like 25 than 21, and add to that mod rodding for about 7, plus 1 basic mana regen. Which adds up to 89, all of which anyone on a raid can expect to get.

316 mana per cast with say an 18s delay (6 clerics at 3s which covers the majority of our rotations) gives 267 regen, losing 49 mana per cycle. Given that even the worst mana pool clerics are going to have 2k mana, that’s 32 cycles before going oom, or almost 10 minutes, which should be enough for pretty much any fight. So a L49 cleric with bazaar gear could fill in pretty well. Add FT5 to that (pretty easy to obtain and you’re up to 15 minutes).

In my case (almost max mana regen possible) I can keep up a 16s rotation indefinitely. In fact mana regen is so broken I can chain cast CH for about 15 minutes before I am oom.

Fixed my math errors.

It is a numbers game, and depends on how many people in the chain. But, I will say this.... I havent seen a 3 second chain in ages. Every chain that I see in Time/Elementals is 1, 1.5, or 2.
Now this might not seem like a big difference, but cycle time is the largest single differnce. I'm seeing most cycles at about 12 to 15 Seconds.

Hmmm I was fairly confident that a horse has been parsed out, that medding mana regen was 21. And you don't add in basic mana regen.

Now KR at same time is 474 Mana Per Cast Loss ((Spec SCM)

@15 Seconds a cycle:
Cleric max FT/AA +18
Your numbers: 107*2.5 = 267.5 316 - 267.5 = 48.5
My horse numbers: 102 * 2.5 = 255 316 - 255 = 61

Cleric No FT/AA
Your Numbers: 89 * 2.5 = 222.5 316 - 222.5 = 93.5 this 5k Pool
My Horse Numbers: 84*2.5 = 210 316 - 210 = 106

Druid Max FT/AA +15+3+4 = 22
Druid KR: 111*2.5 = 277.5 474-277.55 = 196.5
Druid my Horse Numbers = 106*2.5 = 265 474 - 265= 209


Now per cycle look at the percents. Cleric with FT15/MC3 is losing
Cleric with FT0 is losing 92% more mana per cycle.
Druid with FT15 is losing 305% more mana per cycle Cleric FT15
Hell...
Druid with FT15/MC3 is losing 110%more mana per cycle then Cleric with FT ZERO!

Using my horse numbers:
Cleric with FT0 is losing 73% more mana per cycle then ClericFT15
Druid with FT15/MC3 is losing 242% more mana then Cleric FT15
Hell Druid with FT15 is still losing 97% more mana then Cleric with FT0

If you lowered KR to 500 Mana you'd get cost of 395
at KR 480 youd get 379.2

Druid 500KR: 111*2.5 = 277.5 395-277.5 = 117.5.5
Druid my Horse Numbers = 106*2.5 = 265 395 - 265= 130

Druid 480KR: 111*2.5 = 277.5 379.2-277.5 = 101.7
Druid my Horse Numbers = 106*2.5 = 379.2 - 265 = 114.2

Notice this is still worse than a cleric with Zero FT.

course this is all because of the horse. the gaps are less without the horse.

currently, you have to take druid mana regen and divide by 3 to find equivlent cleric. Means that a horse is like 20 mana a tic for a chaining cleric, and only 13.3 Mana a tic for a chaining Druid.

even at 500 mana a horse will favor a cleric being 20 for cleric
being 15 mana for a druid. at 480 mana a horse is 20 for cleric
and 16 for druid.

This is getting absolutely silly. Druids are blaming Clerics for every single nerf they've ever received without any proof to back this blame up.

Some Druids

Lets not generallise :)

Tils

Originally posted by Islington
I'd like to see some proof of this. I have no idea where you got the idea that Clerics got your Harmony nerfed. Please show me because I have no idea what you're talking about.

This is getting absolutely silly. Druids are blaming Clerics for every single nerf they've ever received without any proof to back this blame up.

Didnt say "clerics caused it."

I said that at the same time for "balance issues" druids got CHs added. a number of other little changes happened.

Including Harmony being nerfed. and pacificiation being fixed.

Clerics went from having a broken lull line to a working lull line +power in balance equation

Druids went from having a super outdoor lull, to an ordinary outdoor lull. - power in balance equation.

BTW: this was all in answer to an earlier poster who claimed
druids gained too much +power with adding ICHs

Originally posted by Nindor
Hmm, i'm a cleric, so i'm probably going to get flamed.


doubtful nind, especially seeing as you covered just about all the points a majority of us want.

Yeah some people have a certain comfort level with a rezzer in an LDoN. That's why if we don't have a cleric I try to encourage any group I am in to have either a necro or a pally in addition to me. One or the other is usually available. And I carry a few EEs with me "just in case".

Anyway.... someone here asked why I wanted MORE clerics in EQ, stating that there were TOO MANY as it is... (a cleric I believe). If you review the thread here you will see that the primary reason people state that they want a better % heal aside from an "equity/fairness" issue is because there aren't enough clerics for raids and a CH rotation. My statement was that SOE needs to make the cleric class a more palatable class to play because people don't enjoy playing them, and I still believe this. If that issue was fixed, I really don't believe that there would be such an uproar from druids wanting a real CH rotation heal.

My guild has 28 guilded clerics. Of those, 5 are not primary characters, but alternates. We have several untagged alts that are available for two-boxing and they are often needed. Why? Because playing a cleric in a raid is NOT fun, it's high pressure and it is one dimentional. When I said we sometimes sit looking for clerics because we get THREE logged on for a 72 man raid I wasn't kidding. And to the one who asked how many clerics we need for a raid? The answer is 6-8 usually in a 72 man PoTime raid. In the "time" LDoN raids we need a much higher % though. I firmly believe that LDoN raids are WAY unbalanced. For an LDoN we need MORE than the equivalent of 1 cleric to each group.

The first post here states that "Druids are starting to suck at healing again.... compared to clerics." Well, we're supposed to if "sucking" means that our heals cost more, are slower and not as powerful. Suddenly, LDoN comes out and we're "underpowered" in healing? The spells haven't changed. I personally don't think that our spells are out of whack if a druid can be primary healer in a "regular" LDoN with the help of another class in heals. There are a few classes that can be added to supplement our healing and I believe that this is how it was meant to be. Just as there is a difference in slow % by class and you might want a real warrior for a group having only bard or BST slow, but if you have a shammy you can do with a pally or SK tank. Only the CORE skill classes don't require supplementing. Cleric for healing, Shammy for slows, warriors for tanking (um... well when the classes are balanced and working right).

Clerics meleeing? Yeah.. and I melee in LDoNs and I have seen pure casters meleeing as well. Damage is damage. I have rarely done an LDoN with a cleric that never meleed, even if just a bit.

Hm... what else while I am rambling....
Oh yeah... someone sniped at me for my equipment stating something to the effect that I don't suffer the hardships of lesser equipped druids. Well, I guess I don't today, but when my guild was clearing HoT I was wearing a forest loop and a few pieces of Thurgadin leather that I had gotten in Kael exp groups. We cleared SoL with HoT armor and VT with some SoL/Velious armor. We cleared PoP with the same and a bit of VT armor... We progressed with the same armor for raiding that everyone else has an opportunity to get if they raid.

I have been a patch healer in raids since I started raiding. I kept my groups up in HoT with the AEs and kept them up against Dozekar's AEs before he was shrunk and nerfed. I was patcher on pull teams to let the cleric concentrate on the puller. I used Chloroblast almost 100% of the time because of the mana cost and the cast time was so much faster than the uber 60 spell.. Nature's Touch. I couldn't keep an exp group up as primary healer even on the lower level exp mobs.

Believe it or not, the druid class HAS evolved to a much better healer than I believe VI ever intended. I chose a druid for the ease of travel and self sufficiency of the class. In Velious we gave up our "top" status as THE porting class when wizzies got their TL spells. We have lost a lot of our soloability, not by spell nerfs (although the Harmony nerf WAS a hit below the belt) but by virtue of VI/SOE not giving us but an extremely limited number of areas where we can solo well. I can see that I am in the minority when I say that I don't WANT the role of primary healer on raids. Honestly, if I did, I really WOULD have made a cleric to play as a primary character. Druids pay a penalty for being more flexible than a cleric. A bit more mana and a bit slower cast. I can live with that. I have instant camouflage and can exodus the whole group if things go south in an LDoN.

I WILL take a faster recast time on SotW tho. I do agree that it should be equal to the cleric and BST refresh time. The difference should be in the spell content, not in the refresh.

Originally posted by corlathist
It is a numbers game, and depends on how many people in the chain. But, I will say this.... I havent seen a 3 second chain in ages. Every chain that I see in Time/Elementals is 1, 1.5, or 2.


My guild uses lots. When we used to do the elemental planes Xegony (2-3s rotation depending on whether the tank had disc up) and Fennin Ro were the only mobs where a faster than 3s rotation was used. If your guild uses faster, then good for you, but its not necessary. Perhaps your guild is one of the ones I often read about who use 8-10 clerics on a 1s rotation. I read a post on the cleric boards about a guild who use to need 10 clerics on a 1s rotation for a mob, but with improved tank equipment they only need 8 clerics on a 1s rotation…

In time, TZ/VZ/RZ, Bertox and Inno are the only ones which require more than a 3s rotation (which admittedly is the majority), although once you start farming time you can get away with a slower rotation on most of them too.

The fastest rotation possible is 12.25 seconds. And to be honest anything less than about 15 gets pretty shaky because if someone is a little too quick, or has to skip a turn then there isn’t enough slack to catch up and those heals start stretching out to 3-4 seconds at times.

Actually, regarding Harmony, this is how I recall it happening:

Cleric/Enchanter line was made useful (less resistable, can be forgiven).
Druid/Ranger version was nerfed, replaced with Harmony of Nature (level limit imposed, resistable).
Cleric/Enchanter line duration was nerfed (42 seconds).
Some Clerics/Enchanters cried foul, since Druid/Ranger version duration was left untouched.
Druid/Ranger duration was nerfed shortly after (42 seconds). I don't remember clearly, but it was something like a day to a week later.Not nerfing Harmony at the same time as lulls could definately have been an oversight by SOE; the original intent being a nerf to all of them. However, people see things from their own unique perspective.

I wouldn't put any blame on Clerics/Chanters getting Harmony nerfed, but as it stands Harmony/Lull balancing needs another look. Lull increased in effectiveness up to level 65 through expansions, whilst Harmony has only been nerfed at every turn since it went live.

So now the two lines affect the same level mobs, but the Druid/Ranger remains outdoor only.

Originally posted by AmonraSet
Perhaps your guild is one of the ones I often read about who use 8-10 clerics on a 1s rotation. I read a post on the cleric boards about a guild who use to need 10 clerics on a 1s rotation for a mob, but with improved tank equipment they only need 8 clerics on a 1s rotation…

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but..
how can you use 8 clerics on a 1s rotation? Especially when the spell takes 10s to cast. Unless I am missing something here, this is impossible.

Originally posted by Arienne
Yeah some people have a certain comfort level with a rezzer in an LDoN. That's why if we don't have a cleric I try to encourage any group I am in to have either a necro or a pally in addition to me. One or the other is usually available. And I carry a few EEs with me "just in case".

Anyway.... someone here asked why I wanted MORE clerics in EQ, stating that there were TOO MANY as it is... (a cleric I believe). If you review the thread here you will see that the primary reason people state that they want a better % heal aside from an "equity/fairness" issue is because there aren't enough clerics for raids and a CH rotation. My statement was that SOE needs to make the cleric class a more palatable class to play because people don't enjoy playing them, and I still believe this. If that issue was fixed, I really don't believe that there would be such an uproar from druids wanting a real CH rotation heal.

My guild has 28 guilded clerics. Of those, 5 are not primary characters, but alternates. We have several untagged alts that are available for two-boxing and they are often needed. Why? Because playing a cleric in a raid is NOT fun, it's high pressure and it is one dimentional. When I said we sometimes sit looking for clerics because we get THREE logged on for a 72 man raid I wasn't kidding. And to the one who asked how many clerics we need for a raid? The answer is 6-8 usually in a 72 man PoTime raid. In the "time" LDoN raids we need a much higher % though. I firmly believe that LDoN raids are WAY unbalanced. For an LDoN we need MORE than the equivalent of 1 cleric to each group.

The first post here states that "Druids are starting to suck at healing again.... compared to clerics." Well, we're supposed to if "sucking" means that our heals cost more, are slower and not as powerful. Suddenly, LDoN comes out and we're "underpowered" in healing? The spells haven't changed. I personally don't think that our spells are out of whack if a druid can be primary healer in a "regular" LDoN with the help of another class in heals. There are a few classes that can be added to supplement our healing and I believe that this is how it was meant to be. Just as there is a difference in slow % by class and you might want a real warrior for a group having only bard or BST slow, but if you have a shammy you can do with a pally or SK tank. Only the CORE skill classes don't require supplementing. Cleric for healing, Shammy for slows, warriors for tanking (um... well when the classes are balanced and working right).

Clerics meleeing? Yeah.. and I melee in LDoNs and I have seen pure casters meleeing as well. Damage is damage. I have rarely done an LDoN with a cleric that never meleed, even if just a bit.

Hm... what else while I am rambling....
Oh yeah... someone sniped at me for my equipment stating something to the effect that I don't suffer the hardships of lesser equipped druids. Well, I guess I don't today, but when my guild was clearing HoT I was wearing a forest loop and a few pieces of Thurgadin leather that I had gotten in Kael exp groups. We cleared SoL with HoT armor and VT with some SoL/Velious armor. We cleared PoP with the same and a bit of VT armor... We progressed with the same armor for raiding that everyone else has an opportunity to get if they raid.

I have been a patch healer in raids since I started raiding. I kept my groups up in HoT with the AEs and kept them up against Dozekar's AEs before he was shrunk and nerfed. I was patcher on pull teams to let the cleric concentrate on the puller. I used Chloroblast almost 100% of the time because of the mana cost and the cast time was so much faster than the uber 60 spell.. Nature's Touch. I couldn't keep an exp group up as primary healer even on the lower level exp mobs.

Believe it or not, the druid class HAS evolved to a much better healer than I believe VI ever intended. I chose a druid for the ease of travel and self sufficiency of the class. In Velious we gave up our "top" status as THE porting class when wizzies got their TL spells. We have lost a lot of our soloability, not by spell nerfs (although the Harmony nerf WAS a hit below the belt) but by virtue of VI/SOE not giving us but an extremely limited number of areas where we can solo well. I can see that I am in the minority when I say that I don't WANT the role of primary healer on raids. Honestly, if I did, I really WOULD have made a cleric to play as a primary character. Druids pay a penalty for being more flexible than a cleric. A bit more mana and a bit slower cast. I can live with that. I have instant camouflage and can exodus the whole group if things go south in an LDoN.


I WILL take a faster recast time on SotW tho. I do agree that it should be equal to the cleric and BST refresh time. The difference should be in the spell content, not in the refresh.


I guess it just goes down to what you call "a bit". I think Clerics are a "bit" better Spot Healers. 30% better than SL vs NI.

What I don't find acceptable a "bit" is the over 100% difference between KR and CH.

What I see as a "bit" would be for clerics to have more healing tools tha a druid. What I don't find acceptable is that they have a TON more heal tools. No HOT or Group Heals for Druids. I could live without one, but living without both is more than a "bit"

I would argue with you, in that the original poster claim that no longer enough is pretty valid. When TR first went live. You were looking at 400 Mana for 2950 with 10% addable through AA.
So 400 Mana for 3245.

Basically, mudflation has increased the gap. I'd say druids were better healers in that brief period between TR and POP.

I'd say pre TR druids vs Cleric Balance was worse than it is now.
Those were the Dark Ages, where we had threads about how many former druids there were ((people quit class in droves))
and the petition.

Post TR, Pre POP, it was decently acceptable. TR was good enough to keep up with DPS, Tank Hps, and Efficient enough
wheh compared to Clerics

PostPOP, KR is worse. While not the "dark ages" that 600 Mana
is way underpowered.

Okay here's a simple solution:

Change all CH's to be like manaburn, in that they leave a 30 second - 1 minute unremovable buff timer, preventing other CH's within that time. Then, all ya gots'ta do is retune all the mobs, and overpowered CH problem solved! :D

Originally posted by Aaeamdar
2. Clerics have a complete lock on raids. The guild leader of one of the top guilds on my server decided they are close to beating one of the time level LDoN raids. His desired force constists of 12 Clerics. 1/3 of all available slots. That is an extreme example, to be sure, but there is no other class in the game when raiding any content in existance where any guildleader would think that they needed more than 2 or 3. There are pleanty of raids that never happen because 3 clerics is just not enough. You want 6 or more.


Might have been talking about me, but if you are, that was kind of an extreme estimate for a raid designed to overwhelm clerical support abilities. Need to maintain a rotation on a magic immune quad 3500ish (and later 4600) boss, a second rotation on a high 2kish unslowable miniboss, and a couple tank down groups on some easier slowable quad 2k mobs within the confines of a 36 man maximum and mana detrimental abilities (50% mana cost increasing curse for example). So while I don't know if I'd say 10 or more clerics are really needed, I feel below 7 or so is pretty excruciating, and druids are pretty much completely unable to substitute. I'd try the raid if I had 8 clerics, but probably wouldn't with 6 clerics and 4 druids. Other people's experiences may differ.

Originally posted by Autumn10
High pressure for clerics on raids? Huh? In what way? Maybe during the normal mob to mob healing a little bit but a cheal rotation isn't really hard or anxiety ridden so I fail to see the connection. In fact, wasn't it your point to say clerics are leaving because of the tedium of cheal rotations Arienne? So where's the pressure coming into play? There's other classes with a lot more pressure on them during raids than clerics, a LOT.It's both. Tedium of CH and pressure of keeping others up during a raid. If a raid fails, the clerics are usually blamed by the vocal ones in the guild I play in. As I have heard from others, it isn't much different from the "server first" guilds on other servers either.

By the way, druids don't need help as primary healer in normal LDoN adventures. Hard ones yes(at least I have never attempted it as primary healer), but we do just fine healing in normal. Not sure what you meant by your comment to the contrary, Arienne. Well, *I* don't need help in a regular LDoN. But because others complain that they can't do the things I do because they don't have Time gear I was working on the assumption that their complaint with LDoNs was that they couldn't serve as sole healer for regulars. I can serve as primary healer in a hard LDoN, but not SOLE healer. Again I was working under the assumption that because everyone is always claiming that there is SUCH a desparity between "uber" equipment and "non-uber" equipment, that the only reason I was able to do this was my equipment. Also, understand that I use LDoN "hard" vs "regular" as a measuring stick here and could just as well say a normal exp group in PoE vs a hard, fast paced exp group in PoE. Just thought the LDoN example was more succinct.

Anyway, you guys argue away. I like my class. I like my role. I don't want to take over anyone else's role either. Oh... and I don't think druids are "broken" as compared to clerics. Am i willing to cast slower, use a bit more mana and retain my soloability and group utility? Yes, I am. I am sorry for those of you who are unhappy with your character's abilities.

My belief is that if you are gonna complain about something, find something WORTH the complaint and think it out well if you want SOE to "listen". This topic isn't it, to me. Oh yeah. I have opinions about it, but I never would have considered this enough of an issue to START a thread about. And yes, we could benefit from a little minor "tweaking" of our healing or AAs, but from experience when SOE "fixes" something they typically do it by taking away from other sources and NOT by upgrading much of anything. I'd rather they just ignore our current healing situation completely because it IS workable.

High pressure for clerics on raids? Huh? In what way? Maybe during the normal mob to mob healing a little bit but a cheal rotation isn't really hard or anxiety ridden so I fail to see the connection. In fact, wasn't it your point to say clerics are leaving because of the tedium of cheal rotations Arienne? So where's the pressure coming into play? There's other classes with a lot more pressure on them during raids than clerics, a LOT.

This is, quite simply, one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen. Simply put, you have NO room to talk about Clerics and stress unless you've played as a Cleric Main for a significant period of time.

Clerics are THE most essential class in the game for Raids to happen. Therefore, you have to hear everyone in your guild whining when you have 60 people wanting to raid but not enough Clerics to make that raid happen. Far too often, Clerics are discouraged from taking time off (be it 1 night or 1 month) because that means a potential for healing shortage.

As has been stated before, when a raid fails, it is very typical that a vocal group will blame the Clerics for that failure since "we couldn't heal properly." Clerics are scapegoats for raid failures in far too many guilds. Of the 3 Guilds I was in, 2 did exactly this and the other guild was so casual that raids never happened. And it's not just "my" guilds, you go to EQCleric and you can read countless people saying that the same thing happens to them and their Cleric team on guilds across every server. It might not happen in your Guild but I'm also willing to say that the guilds that this doesn't happen in is the exception and not the rule.

Clerics are NOT able to just go AFK but, instead, must be glued to Health bars. Fighting a boss and a melee needs to jump AFK to answer the door? That melee misses a few special attacks such as Kick or Bash. Cleric goes needs an emergancy AFK while fighting bosses? CH Chain can get out of order which means the MA dies which, in turn, kills off a good chunk of the raid simply because 1 (ONE) Cleric had a minor/major emergancy to attend to.

I'm going to end this post now but I haven't even come close to scratching the surface of why your comment was completely uninformed and ignorant. So in conclusion, yes, Clerics ARE, in fact, the most stressful class to play bar none.

Fighting a boss and a melee needs to jump AFK to answer the door? That melee misses a few special attacks such as Kick or Bash. Cleric goes needs an emergancy AFK while fighting bosses? CH Chain can get out of order which means the MA dies which, in turn, kills off a good chunk of the raid simply because 1 (ONE) Cleric had a minor/major emergancy to attend to.

I run into that same thing as a druid on raids. Heck, if i have to get up to run to the restroom on a raid between mobs I have to tell my group and usually the cleric I am in contact with that I'll brb. Then even when I get back I usually have piled up buff request tells to take care of. (not to say clerics don't, I know they do also) As a druid if I get up during a raid encounter, people in my group prolly going to die depending on the encounter. In most cases, I am the primary healer in my group and do not always have a backup.

Nature's Infusion really isn't a fast enough heal Nol, don't know where you're playing or how. When you get into the elementals or even do a hard LDoN and cast NI as somebody's health starts going down and it still doesn't hit in time it's BS. I'm not talking about melee healing but other casters. Our supposed quick heal isn't quick at all.

Well I am raiding time right now and did many hard LDON advs. I so far having little problem with NI. Is either NI hits the target or the target dies faster than I could react. Just imo though. Just because you think NI isn't fast enough you can say it isn't fast enough for druids. I know a lot of druids will think that it isn't while alot others wil think it is.


I guess it just goes down to what you call "a bit". I think Clerics are a "bit" better Spot Healers. 30% better than SL vs NI.

What I don't find acceptable a "bit" is the over 100% difference between KR and CH.

What I see as a "bit" would be for clerics to have more healing tools tha a druid. What I don't find acceptable is that they have a TON more heal tools. No HOT or Group Heals for Druids. I could live without one, but living without both is more than a "bit"

I would argue with you, in that the original poster claim that no longer enough is pretty valid. When TR first went live. You were looking at 400 Mana for 2950 with 10% addable through AA.
So 400 Mana for 3245.

Basically, mudflation has increased the gap. I'd say druids were better healers in that brief period between TR and POP.

I'd say pre TR druids vs Cleric Balance was worse than it is now.
Those were the Dark Ages, where we had threads about how many former druids there were ((people quit class in droves))
and the petition.

Post TR, Pre POP, it was decently acceptable. TR was good enough to keep up with DPS, Tank Hps, and Efficient enough
wheh compared to Clerics

PostPOP, KR is worse. While not the "dark ages" that 600 Mana
is way underpowered.


WTH is the 100 % difference bettween KR and cleric's CH? Cleric ch is 400 mana for 7500 hp. Druids is 600 mana for 4680 hp or 75% max. Where is the 100 %? But if you put it in another way, in everyday use. Does KR bother you at all? I can heal time geared tanks in group to full hp fine, it cost a bit mana but I can do the job. What's your problem?

Clerics have a ton of healing tools, you don't accept that? They are primary healers, what's wrong with them having alot more healing tools that druids? Right now, KR is kinda like post TR per POP like you said. We can heal fine with it. What's needs to be fixed? Clerics have their same old ch and we get a new one due to amount of hps POP gears can generate. You can't live with that?

WTH is the 100 % difference bettween KR and cleric's CH? Cleric ch is 400 mana for 7500 hp. Druids is 600 mana for 4680 hp or 75% max. Where is the 100 %?

Let me help you with the math. CH heals 18.75 HP per mana. KR heals 7.8 HP per mana. CH heals 2.4x more HP per mana than KR. Or, if you prefer, 140% better.

And that ignores any increase due to HG.

Its hard for some of you to make a point to the rest of us about druid heals being "fine", when you're the same ones saying that you're not the main healers in groups, especially in raids. When you reach that stage, let us know what you think then. All it looks like to some of us is that you're fighting to keep from being considered that healer. Every time I start reading your responses and get to the point where you say something like "spot heal" or "i assist the cleric in the group", i skim past the rest of your post. I can imagine I'm not alone.


Lets get off the rez idea, don't even go there. If there was anything of that nature I'd like, I'd take revive, just so I could get a fallen group member back to their corpse quick instead of making them run the distance. Leave the experience-return type stuff to the real rezzers.

btw, I'm not big on talking cleric dps, so i'll try to get out thoughts and be done with it. Lets try to keep this a druid heal thread though. The undead bonus dps thing is pretty situational. I will say one thing about cleric dps in one way...you may not be huge on dps output, but you'll be able to sustain your group long enough to make your dps count. By the way, you get better magic-nukes than us, and they work indoors. on the melee issue of it...look into dexterity. It'll help fight interrupts anyway, but at least it'll bring your procs up. Oh yes...and Yaulp 6...come on ******s, any other mana-using class in the game would probably kill for that. By the way, I'm not knocking you clerics, just poking fun ;) - keep in mind that SoE did mention they were going to look over all the priest classes (around the time they gave you guys bash). They just finished you guys first :p


In general, I'll hit on the different ideas...

Our iCH is okay, I honestly don't use it much unless I have to. Its just not enough HP for the length of time to cast it, or just the cost really. If there was anything you could fix with it, I'd say just shave a little of the mana cost off. I wouldn't go below 500 though, or it becomes too good. We want efficiency, but not cleric-level effiency.

Nature's Infusion is a decent spell, but seriously...its too costly for how slow it is. I understand there is a balance issue, but this thing is like a "sloppy, burn your mana to heal hard" spell....but you take the time out to start the fire for it to burn first. There can be multiple ways to work on this one, but the main issue of things is that some mobs hit really hard soon, because slow hasn't hit yet or it was resisted. Sometimes a tank or just someone in the group can die real quick with no chance.

Group heals. Shamans and druids kinda got what the other didn't get...they got heals over time, we got the direct ones. Shame we can't share each other's spellbooks, but that's how SoE made us. However, we both kinda got shafted in the group healing department. I'm sure Blessing of Replenishment is the greatest thing since sliced bread for people with just over 1k hit points, but in the EQ world post-PoP, you can barely see your meter rise. We shouldn't get anything huge though. hell, why not give both classes a group Chloroblast? Especially if it can be affected by healing adept and healing gift. That would at least help fight AEs or just keep a group standing. I mean, THAT makes sense. 428hp...I think with maxed AA and an Improved Healing 4 item, I get it up almost to 600hp healed. That's not half bad for a group heal, and it would make the lower guys have to work their AA and exp to get it up there, where the greater AA/Focus-item druids are for their level. It doesn't hit the same level of group healing the other classes have, but that's reasonable at least. I don't want a powerful one that does 1k base for 400 mana or something...that's overdoing it. Something like Group Cholorblast makes sense to me on a balanced Druid/Shaman group heal level.

Oh yeah, and before you knock the shaman mentionings on heal spells, keep in mind...a shaman with a mini group heal can really help. Grouped with a druid, that makes great assistance. One of my best buds is a shaman, and we always have each other's backs :) (he hits me with Q since I hate wasting mana to heal myself, hehe).

Think that's everything for now.

Clerics are THE most essential class in the game for Raids to happen. Therefore, you have to hear everyone in your guild whining when you have 60 people wanting to raid but not enough Clerics to make that raid happen. Far too often, Clerics are discouraged from taking time off (be it 1 night or 1 month) because that means a potential for healing shortage.

I completely agree. It is 100% in alignment for what I was saying is wrong with the game. So, why do all the Clerics fight so hard to keep this the status quo? Why not argue for getting Druids a full CH and set of other heals? If Druids could fill your shoes adequately as healers, everything you said would no longer be true. Its really hard to feel your pain, though, when you all will do just about anything to keep it.

Originally posted by Aaeamdar
I completely agree. It is 100% in alignment for what I was saying is wrong with the game. So, why do all the Clerics fight so hard to keep this the status quo? Why not argue for getting Druids a full CH and set of other heals? If Druids could fill your shoes adequately as healers, everything you said would no longer be true. Its really hard to feel your pain, though, when you all will do just about anything to keep it.

Trouble is Aaeamdar if we're not wanted for healing because druids can do it well enough as well as bringing other things to the group, what do we as clerics do ?

That being said I think the mana cost is out of whack for your spells and the HG thing is just stupid and should be changed.

I can't even begin the number of times I (as a patch healer, backup healer, or as a main healer) would have killed for 0.5 second faster casting time on Nature's Infusion. I see someone take damage, I cast Nature's Infusion. 0.4 seconds before the heal lands the target splats. That is something I see every day, multiple times. And I consider myself a damn fast patch healer.

Being a patcher is all about reaction and fast heals. Saying that "it's fine" cause it a someone would be dead before you reacted shows me that either you don't react fast enough, or it's a wizard that got summoned to a boss mob. In the latter (wiz summoned) and 0.8 seconds faster heal would in most cases have saved that wizard. That at least is my experience.

If we take my previous idea on lowering the casting time from 3.8 seconds to 3.0 seconds (this should also be done on Tnarg's Mending and Supernal Light offcourse), it would in no way challenge the clerics domain. They got an unmodified casting time of 1.8 seconds on their mostly used patch heal. By lowering the other patch heals to 3.0 seconds it will be set right at the edge of Spell Haste items affecting them, wich in the end game (either with Vex Thall legs, or Fennin Ro belt, or other Time loots with Quickening of Mithaneil) would actually make them able to lower their casting times to be as efficient as the clerics Supernal Remedy. It will be a bit better, but after A LOT of gearing and raiding. Clerics won't even get shafted themselves cause their Supernal Light, wich heals for 1k more HP than our Nature's Infusion, will also be able to be lowered to 1.8 seconds, making that their preferred patch heal.

God help me....I read the whole thread! Hehe.

Anyway, to toss my 2cp into the pissing pot - I have always been for giving druids stronger heals. Sony could even give them the exact same heals and that wouldn't upset me. (Although not one post in here has asked for that) It might release the incredibly strong grip clerics have on the high end game. That part annoys me to no end. Why hold up an entire guild just because a cleric or 2 decide to do something else for a bit? If druids could be almost a straight up replacment for clerics in a raid situation, then that would suit me fine. It would change the dynamic of the high end game progression though. Something I don't think Sony would want to do - not at this point anyway.

The way I see it, is druids in the past have gotten much needed improvements to heals because mob mudflation completely outpaced druidic healing. It has happened before, and it needs to happen again. I like the suggestions posted by some druids here. HG/HA working on their percentage heals would help. SotW reduced to 15 reuse time. And I would just be done with it and give druids CH (as it is 7500 base HP healed). The druids that want to be main healers can be. It wouldn't work so well in a group setting, as druids have almost no get out of jail free cards in terms of aggro - unless they have tons of room to run.

I would like to see some ability for clerics to be able to viably solo, but I don't think it will happen. It would be nice since clerics everwhere could log in and know for a fact that they aren't absolutely required for every somewhat risky raid. Just ask the druids online if they want to help the guild out. With the full spell CH. Same aggro and everything - this would be possible. Then clerics could go do something else every once in a while.

Hey - I can dream can't I? /wink

-Krys
65 cleric
Bristlebane server

Nowhere did I say that clerics are responsible for all druid nerfs, nor did I even imply it ;p.

Anway, as for the CH nerf, just look at the circumstances - yes there is no direct proof as Sony isnt just going to come out and say it. You have Sony put in TR around July? with low aggro. A bit later Sony added in some new cleric heals and adjusted aggro on healing some, with TR kept about the same. In October, comes PoP with KR - only a 7% upgrade which is measly compared to other heals/nukes/etc upgrades. Such a high mana cost doesnt make much sense unless a portion of that penalty was for the low aggro. TR was initially put into the game with low aggro and developing a newer spell based off it, I find it hard to believe Sony didnt know about it - they are pretty quick to fix beneficial bugs, its the detrimental bugs that they will remain blisefully ignorant about. After PoP comes out, you get the huge thread on cleric message board complaining about the low aggro on KR/TR with complaints daily. Low and behold ~ 6 months after the introduction of TR but shortly after these complaints, the aggro gets changed to around the same as CH without adjusting the mana cost on KR to make it an upgrade similar to other PoP spells, nor did druids get anything to combat this aggro, just an additional nerf to wrath of wild (which clerics had nothing to do with ;p).

As for any druid upgrades, no one is realistically asking to heal anywhere near a cleric. Asking for group heals doesnt seem that realistic, either, as its quite a drastic change for shamans/druids, but then again so was adding the incomplete CHs. However, lowering the cost of KR down to 480-500ish range seems rather reasonable considering it no longer has any aggro benefits, and will still heal for quite a bit less than CH. Also, lowering NI's casting time would be another change I think is warranted, but 3 seconds is too fast when adding in focus/aura of reverence, somewhere around 3.3-3.4s would be a good compromise. The HG changes/wood changes would not have that great affect, but taken together with everything else would help balance healing a bit better.

Fayne,

before the fix, those heals had NO aggro (or as close to zero aggro as you can get). That was broken. There is no possible way you can justify that this was not broken.

Clerics had little to nothing to do with it. There was a single thread created about this issue on EQCleric and it was created by a Druid. Most of that thread was spent attempting to prove that there was a difference in aggro between CH and Percentage Heals and understand why that aggro difference existed. Meanwhile there were a number of threads on THIS board about Healing aggro and the lack thereof on Percentage Heals. Most likely it was just a SOE employee going through the spell database and saying to himself "WTF? Bob forgot to set the aggro on Druid's Percentage heals. Well I'll just fix that..." But there was no massive campaign with Clerics on the picketline holding up signs proclaiming "NERF DRUID HEALING AGGRO!"

So in summary, healing aggro was broken. Sony fixed it. Deal with it.

After PoP comes out, you get the huge thread on cleric message board complaining about the low aggro on KR/TR with complaints daily. Low and behold ~ 6 months after the introduction of TR but shortly after these complaints, the aggro gets changed to around the same as CH without adjusting the mana cost on KR to make it an upgrade similar to other PoP spells, nor did druids get anything to combat this aggro, just an additional nerf to wrath of wild (which clerics had nothing to do with ;p).

Hmmm thats a bit innacurate but I remember the hub bub.

What happened was there was a thread here, weeks before that, proclaiming how wonderful the spell was because it caused no agro. Then a few smarter druids said shhhhhh you will get us nerfed!

A few weeks after that a Druid posts in the Cleric forum and the gross majority, at least 70-80 percent of us, thought the agro you had was fine.

The agro changed and you blamed us!

Gimme a break!

Far as Druid healing goes, yah need a good and fast heal, thats the ticket. Lower the recast time of SoTW would be wonderful. But Complete Heal is strictly a raid spell for two or three mobs that night. I raid twice a week so I use that spell maybe an hour a week tops vs the 20-30 hours a week I play.

Get something you can use all the time! Mana efficient, with decent range and sufficient power. Save some casters! Bump the MA during a chain! Lotsa great applications.

But for common Complete Heal chains your 400 mana one heals on average the same as mine for a normal guild. Yah dont let an 8k hp tank get a full 7500 hp heal thats for sure. And that is 90 plus percent of the people that play this game.

As a cleric, I personally have no problems with Druids getting upgrades to heals. But I think you should keep a couple things in mind.

On average I cast about 35 CH's in a single chain. I do up to 9 chains a night. That's 315 CH's just from the chain. Guess how many of them ever exceed 75% of a tank's hp. About 5. That's less than 2%.

Yeah, ask around the cleric population. You are asking for higher amount of HP healed - it won't matter. I CH with druids all day long, and the only trouble they have in the chain is they run OOM faster. Their lower heal amounts have NEVER been a problem. Not a single time have I ever lost a tank because a druid CH wasn't healing enough.

I guess my point is, the gap you perceive in the amount healed really isn't an issue. As many have pointed out above, most of us play it safe. We aren't trying to achieve the theoretical maximum healing efficiency of 18.75 (whatever the statistic above was). We don't care. I want my CH to land at 50% - not because I'm worried, but because I plan for the "Oh crap!" moments of random adds, people going LD, etc.

In chains, you plan for burst dps, not average. On average, the AoW did about 1k less dmg than he did on peak (been a while, the gap might be smaller). Did we heal for average? No, we healed for peak.

And because of that, unless there was a max dmg round by the mob, the amount healed on that chain and any other in the game doesn't matter, so long as it is one of the CH's.

Keeping those points in mind, I think perhaps your focus on what to fix isn't gonna achieve what you want. My suggestions based on playing my druid in CH chains (baby ones, not end game ones) is that the two things to fix iCH would be:

1) Make HG work (the chances it goes off are roughly equal to the number of times you'll actually need it)

2) Lower the mana cost from 600 to 500.


Remember, most of the clerics are NOT against you. I am more than happy to have druids helping out on the CH chain, just don't get carried away and leave me with no job to do in EQ.

Oh, and as for the idea that next expansion heals will need to be scaled up:

I do NOT want to see CH touched. I don't want it healing more. It is the single most broken spell in game, and it needs to fade away. And that means the new heals should be heals for exact amounts, not percentage heals.

Give me an upgrade to SL, give druids an upgrade to NI, give shamans an upgrade to Tnarg's. Leave all the CH's alone - the sooner they leave the game, the better off we all are.

I don't believe CH will be touched. It will just become a fixed 7500 point heal spell (like all other fixed heal spells back in the original game). As levels (I'm guessing, here) and HPs (not so much of a guess) continue to rise in the future, new healing spells that heal for more than CH are likely. None will be true "complete" 100% heals.

I also agree with everything Krys said. I also have great sympathy for clerics...I couldn't stand to play a cleric in EQ. It takes a love for S-M that I admittedly prefer to admire from afar.

Clerics may have a death grip on the healing role on raids, but that role has a death grip on them as well, and it is choking all the pleasure from the game.

--------

Edited my own words sorry for the post

Aamadar LeCambrion
Fennin Ro

Anway, as for the CH nerf, just look at the circumstances - yes there is no direct proof as Sony isnt just going to come out and say it. You have Sony put in TR around July? with low aggro. A bit later Sony added in some new cleric heals and adjusted aggro on healing some, with TR kept about the same. In October, comes PoP with KR - only a 7% upgrade which is measly compared to other heals/nukes/etc upgrades. Such a high mana cost doesnt make much sense unless a portion of that penalty was for the low aggro. TR was initially put into the game with low aggro and developing a newer spell based off it, I find it hard to believe Sony didnt know about it - they are pretty quick to fix beneficial bugs, its the detrimental bugs that they will remain blisefully ignorant about. After PoP comes out, you get the huge thread on cleric message board complaining about the low aggro on KR/TR with complaints daily. Low and behold ~ 6 months after the introduction of TR but shortly after these complaints, the aggro gets changed to around the same as CH without adjusting the mana cost on KR to make it an upgrade similar to other PoP spells, nor did druids get anything to combat this aggro, just an additional nerf to wrath of wild (which clerics had nothing to do with ;p).
Actualy, the cleircs got the new heals and hammers before druids got iCH. Regarding the low agro of the iCH at the time. When the heals went in on test, druids were having problems with agro due to the lack of agro managment tools the class has. The agro was reduced on test before the heals went live. Then after it went live there was a big stink about how the agro between the two was different (regardless of who started it) and it was nerfed as a result. In adition, at the time it was nerfed people testing it showed that the problem may have been adjusted a bit too far against the druids as tests seemed to indicate that the druid heals generated more agro than the equivalent cleric ones. Wether or not this is true, I don't know but I know it was a long topic of disucssion at the time.

Trouble is Aaeamdar if we're not wanted for healing because druids can do it well enough as well as bringing other things to the group, what do we as clerics do ?

Well that's the thing, isn't it. But let me tell you, you are selling short with your status quo attitude. Long term, there are several solutions. Content that makes diverse healing desirable. Improvements to Clerics in other areas - such as DPS or ulitity.

Short term you would be at the bottom of the priest ladder. Druids were there for a long long time, but now we rock. As an indivdual player, I don't need reworked healing abilities for Druids. I heal fine for most circumtances. The limitations on my heal effects my preference of tanks, for sure. Paladins are by far the tank I most want to group with, since they have group heals that shore up my one area of weakness and bring Res to teh table as well. But, Paladin or no, I bring as much or more to the table now to a group than a Cleric does.

On a personal level, my quibbles with Druid healing are mostly irritations. HG should work with iCH. Its stupid that that could be considered unbalancing. Also, IMO, KR should always be an upgrade to TR. In many many cases, it is not. People in this tread have been talking about the mere 7% KR has over TR, but that is wrong. There is this tiny window of about 600 HPs where KR is an upgrade to TR. That is what sucks to me about the upgrade. TR and KR should have the same mana cost, or at least be close to each other, or in the alternative, KR needs to have a much higher cap healed so that the window where it is an actual improvement to TR is not so tiny. Personally, I am both too lazy (and I suspect most other people are as well) to make charts of HPs of group or raid members and meep TR and KR both memed to maximize my efficiency, so I just use KR all the time. Its just irritating that it is not an upgrade most of the time.

As a GL however, I remain tired of having to look to large numbers of a single class to determine if our force for Target X is sufficient. Every other class I can scan and see a couple of them at the raid and know we are good. Clerics I have to actually count. Then I have to think about which are boxed and who is boxing them. It seems to be a problem everyone is willng to agree IS a problem, and probably the most serious problem facing class balance in the game.

It would cerainly be nice if EQ was structured so that healing was actually a lot less important to the success of a raid than it is now. But it would be completely impossible to change that at this point. But having it structured additionally so that only one class can provide the level of healing demanded of raids is really stupid.

As a GL, give Cleric healing to Necros and Enchanters for all I care. But give it to someone. It gets brought up here, of course, because Druids are curently the #2 healers in the game, so they make a rational first choice of most people to improve healing to teh point where they can always stand in for Clerics on a raid.

So, since everyone, even Clerics, seem to agree this is a problem that needs fixing, why does it not get fixed? Because:

Trouble is Aaeamdar if we're not wanted for healing because druids can do it well enough as well as bringing other things to the group, what do we as clerics do ?

The only real answer to that question remains you have to change your long term thinking. SoE is not going to allow the dominant class in the game to become so overwhlemingly powerful that all other preists are irrelevant. So you can't expect any change at all as long as you continue to demand improvements to non-healing aspects of you class before either Cleric nerfs to healing or Druid/Shaman buffs to healing. Long term, you need to accept that, either though Cleric nerf or Druid/Shaman buffs - or both - Druids and Shaman are going to become closer to Clerics in healing before Clerics star excelling in other areas. E.g. - in promoting long term improvments to the Cleric class, you need to accpet a temporary restructuring of Clerics on the priest ladder. Druids did it for a very long time. It's not that bad a process to go through as long as you come out in the end with a more diverse, more enjoyable class and greater parity in healing among the preists that ends up being good for the game - and for Clerics - in the long run.

Clerics may have a death grip on the healing role on raids, but that role has a death grip on them as well, and it is choking all the pleasure from the game. Agree with this 101% Absolutely true.

Islington: you have proven yourself to be more than ignorant in the past with your posts when it comes to comparing druids to clerics so nothing you say to me has much substance. If you think clerics are the most stressful class to play I suggest YOU play some other classes so that YOU can make informed responses.

We're going from one end of the extreme to the other. You said that Clerics have no stress at all. I told you exactly what makes playing a Cleric stressful and you call me ignorant. Seriously, Clerics are easily one of the most stressful classes in the game (and I still maintain the most stressful). Look at the burnout rate in High Level Clerics. Look at the number of Cleric Bots/Alts. A large percentage of them were Clerics who burnt out on the game and made a new Main and/or gave their Cleric to their Guild. Have you even played a Cleric as a Main for a significant amount of time in a goal oriented Guild? And no, playing a Cleric as a bot once a month because your guild happens to be short a Cleric or two does NOT count. You really have to experience to believe it. So I do think that you're ignorant of how stressful Clerics are but I understand that.

If you're in a guild that blames the clerics for failed raids then you must have a pretty crappy guild. I have never seen anyone in my guild even hint at it being anyone's fault like that. I suggest you find a new guild.

It happens. It happens a lot. It happens in the highest level of guilds in the game and in a large percentage of raiding guilds (I dare say even the majority). Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it's not there. Hell, I've never seen China, but that doesn't mean that China doesn't exist. But regardless of what you've seen (or chosen to ignore as the case may be), it's exceedingly common for vocal members of a guild or a group to blame the "clerics" for a failure. They've gotta blame someone since it wasn't their fault and healers have been a good scapegoat for years. But it happens a lot on every server and with guilds at all levels of play and that's a fact.

I suppose you're the type of person that would find it stressful to go to a library and read a book too. A false assumption and a, pretty cute, personal attack. I've reported your post to the moderators as such. You'll notice that I've never attacked you as a person Autumn (despite my increasing disgust for you) but I will point out flaws in your opinions and statements.

Have a good day mein freund and welcome to my Ignore!

Originally posted by Aaeamdar
Long term, you need to accept that, either though Cleric nerf or Druid/Shaman buffs - or both - Druids and Shaman are going to become closer to Clerics in healing before Clerics star excelling in other areas. E.g. - in promoting long term improvments to the Cleric class, you need to accpet a temporary restructuring of Clerics on the priest ladder.

So clerics need to accept being obsolete to get the hope of some upgrades in other areas. With SoE's history of adding new abilities to classes, it will be a cold day in hell before any improvements happen.

Originally posted by Aaeamdar
Druids did it for a very long time.

They did? When was this because I must have blinked and missed it. As far as I have known druids have always been a very versatile and useful class, having abilities to heal, nuke, dot and with a large number of other utility abilities. Not the best in any one area, but good at a lot of them.

Originally posted by Scirocco
Clerics may have a death grip on the healing role on raids, but that role has a death grip on them as well, and it is choking all the pleasure from the game.

That was very wise!

Somewhere I misplaced my logon information so my post count here will be 1, but I have been here befor and troll around from time to time.

Seems pretty silly for AA's not to work on druid partial heals. It's impossible to rely on a crit so why not allow some fun in the game. An extra few percent on your heals would cause no issue as well.

There is so much to consider when balancing heals for druids, and shammies. With shammies you have the canni/heal ratio, unlimited mana is not a good thing. With druids you have a swis army knife of skills, more variables to consider and I'm sure that makes any "adjusting" of your power levels more difficult.

They did? When was this because I must have blinked and missed it.

From Mid-Kunark until iCH was added. Guess you missed that part of the game.

So clerics need to accept being obsolete to get the hope of some upgrades in other areas. With SoE's history of adding new abilities to classes, it will be a cold day in hell before any improvements happen.

And hence why you will always "enjoy" your lot in the game. Pretty much the attitude that makes me have no sympathy for any of you. You continue to get what you ask for - an iron lock on raid realing. Hard for me to shed any tears of the plight of Clerics when they fight so hard to keep their misery.

I have to echo what the clerics say, it is a stressful position to play. My first character I played to 60 before I switched to my rogue as my main, was my cleric. Very, very stressful alternating with very, very boring. I've played so many classes by now, including druid, that I'd have to say that clerics are the worst stress wise. On raids it can be very intensely stressful, in groups it can be as well, just depends on what you're doing.

I always wanted druids to be better healers simply because there aren't enough clerics to go around and exactly for what Scirocco stated, the role is squeezing the life out of them. But like someone else said, why aren't more druids doing CCH?

I stil get why we need a better ch. I can heal time geared tanks fine with my KR. what's need to be done? maybe we should fix the ch good enough so people can put us on CH chains?

Yes... the point is that a retarded amount of clerics are needed for alot of encounters. More clerics than a guild should monopolize on a server. Therefore, we must fill the missing slots with *someone* or *noone* raids. Now, that said. I could give two *bleep* about my CH in an exp group. We are talking about the viability of druids to be able to cover for a cleric in the CH chain. What people are saying is that it requires a jump of 150% the mana pool of a cleric just to keep up. How much sense does that make? What are you going to do when your clerics retire? Create a cleric bot army?

I perform in about 95% of our guild's CH chains out of necessity. So I guess it's a good thing I have ~6k mana pool, huh?

All these people claiming the "fatal flaw" in our logic is balancing healing needs by top end groups are being foolish. We aren't talking about groups so much as raids.

Ta ta for now!

Casual tanks, even at 65, have 4-6k HP

Ack! I sure hope not. My 52 Bard has 4400 hps not even fully raid buffed. I couldn't imagine a 65 Warrior with the same HP's as my bard in bazaar bought gear 13 levels lower.

What are you going to do when your clerics retire? Create a cleric bot army?

Hate to say it Stormlin but that is EXACTLY what many guilds are doing. I logged on for the first time in a while 2 weeks ago. The guild was raiding and I wanted to ask one of our clerics a question. That night there were 12 clerics on. Out of those 12, 8 of them were botted or 2 boxing that I know of.

Unfortunately SoE/VI/Whomever is running the show today has made it impossible to do most of the raid content without a plethora of clerics at your disposal.

LZ

Kahlia:
As a cleric, I personally have no problems with Druids getting upgrades to heals. But I think you should keep a couple things in mind.

On average I cast about 35 CH's in a single chain. I do up to 9 chains a night. That's 315 CH's just from the chain. Guess how many of them ever exceed 75% of a tank's hp. About 5. That's less than 2%....I guess my point is, the gap you perceive in the amount healed really isn't an issue.
Sounds like the point you're making is, 5k healed from a Druid = 5k healed from a Cleric, since the Cleric doesn't land for full most of the time.In chains, you plan for burst dps, not average. On average, the AoW did about 1k less dmg than he did on peak (been a while, the gap might be smaller). Did we heal for average? No, we healed for peak.Bingo!

So, 5k from a Druid = 5k from a Cleric, true. But, as you stated, we don't plan average dps, but burst dps, which is where the Cleric 7.5k heal comes in.

The 2% of the time that the Cleric 7.5k CH doesn't heal full for burst dps will definately kill a raid when 1 out of every 50 Druid cast CH's (2%, as you say) is 2.5k short.

In other words, Cleric CCH planning for burst dps is not equal to a Druid CCH planning for burst dps. It's gotta be faster. That's not even taking into account the higher mana cost, as you say, which makes a Druid CCH empty itself on mana even faster.And because of that, unless there was a max dmg round by the mob, the amount healed on that chain and any other in the game doesn't matter, so long as it is one of the CH's.It's that "unless" that forces the faster chains for the full 7.5k, wouldn't you agree?

Wyte

Oh, Kahlia, just wanted to say that I didn't intend to bash you. Just trying to quell the rumour that Druid CH = Cleric CH on rots.

On a 6 Cleric rot, timed for burst dps - replace 1 Cleric with 1 Druid, same timing... and you're playing Russian Roulette. The more Druid replacements without timing changes the more bullets you put in the gun.

For anyone that says a 6 Druid rot can replace a 6 Cleric rot with the same timing: The Cleric rot was being done with the timing too fast. It's all math. (in theory, LOL, poop hits the turning thingy sometimes).

Originally posted by Aaeamdar
You continue to get what you ask for - an iron lock on raid realing.

I certainly don't. I have no problem at all with druids, shamans or whoever being able to substitute for clerics on raids. Indeed this would be a very good thing given how over necessary clerics are for raids already.

The problem is considering how any change to raid healing will impact on grouping and soloing so as not to make clerics obsolete in those areas.

If druids were to get a line of spells that only work if they are in a raid with say 30+ people on it then no problem at all. I can't really see a spell line like that being put into the game however.

How about a druid aa that increases "icheal" to max 7500 hp, lasts 1.5 hrs. Usable every 24hrs.

Originally posted by Stormlin

We aren't talking about groups so much as raids.


That's the exact problem. You're so focused on CiCH that you don't realize the severly detrimental effects some of the changes you are asking for would have on the majority of players.

Lowering KR to 400 may make it 5k for 400 mana compared to 8k for 400 mana on a raid, but it would be 3-4k for 400 mana vs 3-4k for 400 mana in a standard group. Maybe lowering to it 500-550 mana would be helpful for the iCH chains (I don't see too much trouble w/ that). But sub 500 is bad and 400 is absurd; it makes the iCH too close to CH in standard groups.

Clerics don't want to keep a grip on CH to keep a grip on chains, we want to keep a definitive healing advantage in most groups. There should be situations where a druids healing just isn't good enough and a cleric is necessary. There should be situations when when druid heals are more than sufficient and druids would be preferable for their dps and utility. There should be situations when a knight tank would be smeared and only a warrior will suffice.

The real problem is that the "cleric is a necessity" situations tend to be in a CH chain. As outlandish (and unpallatable) as they sound, Ancient: Druid CH or the above full CH AA are better solutions then significantly improving the KR line. The trick is making druids able to substitute for a cleric in a chain without being able to replace a cleric in general gameplay.

edit: typos

I know that this discussion is primarily about iCH/CH, but here's a minor derailing:

I would like to see Superior Heal lowered to level 39 or 44 for druids and Nature's Touch lowered to 54 or thereabout.

Oh, yeah, I am a cleric so I guess I should say something that I can be flamed for... hmm...

Druids can have group heals just as soon as I get a regen line. :D

- Pirsquared, level 53 cleric on E. Marr

Druids can have group heals just as soon as I get a regen line.SOLD! You can mem our best Regen (Blessing of Replenishment), and we can mem your Word of Restoration (Cleric 57 spell, a few spell circles below the best), k?

Druids can have group heals just as soon as I get a regen lineEthereal Elexir is your regen line ;)
Seriously though, I would gladly give you Blessing of Replenishment etc. if you give me a Ethereal Elexir, or another decent group heal, wich is somewhere between Paladin group heal and Cleric group heal in efficiency.

Druids can have group heals just as soon as I get a regen line
Done! I'd even make it the click effect on your ornate BP if you want it in exchange for the ability to cast a group heal.

Regening 25 hp/tick when mobs hit for 800+ means 32 ticks per HIT to regen. Regen is pretty useless these days. When I have BoR cast on me, my regen is 43/46 per tick and it still makes virtualy no difference in my seurviability.

Oh, Kahlia, just wanted to say that I didn't intend to bash you. Just trying to quell the rumour that Druid CH = Cleric CH on rots.

On a 6 Cleric rot, timed for burst dps - replace 1 Cleric with 1 Druid, same timing... and you're playing Russian Roulette. The more Druid replacements without timing changes the more bullets you put in the gun.

For anyone that says a 6 Druid rot can replace a 6 Cleric rot with the same timing: The Cleric rot was being done with the timing too fast. It's all math. (in theory, LOL, poop hits the turning thingy sometimes).
Just some numbers to back this up I calculated a while back for a guild discussion on healing can be found at: http://forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5616

A 2 second rotation of all clerics heals a average dps of about 3515.63 DPS after 2 min. The burst dps being healed is a constant 3750 dps.

Merely switching every other healer from a cleric to a druid using Tunares renewal (same mana cost as CH so same sustanability in theory) results in the average DPS at the end of 2 min being healed of 2443.36. The burst DPS being healed at any given moment alternates between 1462 and 3750 DPS every two seconds. This is a large fluctiation when you're trying to cover burst damage.

Just looking at the average dps healed we see a drop of 30.5% ((3515.36 - 2443.36) / 3515.36 * 100%) when half the healers are druids. We also see the variance in burst DPS healed jump from zero to 2287.5 dps.

Hmm some good points there. I guess decrease druid's ch down to 500 mana is fine imo. Yea but like alot of others said, we rarely use CH unless in ch chain in a raid... So I still don't see why we need to improve on ch to make us better healers other than introducing ourselves to the ch chain =p Sotw down to 15 minutes and a small group heal are the essientals are making us better healers imo. NI is good enough for me. On raids whoever I am healing rarely die unless that person is against a boss or hard hitter... some mobs that even clerics have a hard time keeping up.

Autumn10, I don't know what level you are, I don't know what server you are on, I don't know your guild name. What Islington and others have been posting about cleric stress is indeed, correct. As for being called ignorant, it isn't as bad a word as you seem to believe.

igˇnoˇrance (gnr-ns) n.
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed

In the case of clerics, at least for clerics in the upper end guilds, you are unaware of their situation and uninformed as to what their stresses are. Learn from the posts. Visit a few cleric sites and try to see their viewpoint. Don't judge the way they play the game or the choices that they have made in the way that they play it. Just read and learn what they are faced with in the EQ that they play. The cleric class IS a vital (and perhaps the MOST vital) class in EQ. And with that, those who play the class often find nightly that the ability of 72 people to even PLAY a game rests squarely on their shoulders. I won't go into detail because if you choose to open your mind and seek out the cleric boards you will see the detail there.

Love these new boards

In a previous post, Autumn10 said:

This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]


And for the record, when I add someone to Ignore, I NEVER click "here" to view their post. I found it's never a useful use of my time as I added that person to my Ignore list for a reason. So I'll never read whatever it is you had to say to me.

Have a nice day mein freund.

Just wanted to add my support to what Arienne and Islington have talked about. They have said the most things that encompass the stress, but I would suspect that anyone who doesn't even realize half of what clerics go through isn't really paying attention. Try talking to a retired cleric to find out what their daily routine is like, not being able to afk during raids or even look away for one second----on a constant basis. If you play a cleric you are playing a healer, and are expected to do so, wheres at least with other classes you have a break from healing and can do other things that don't directly impact 5-70 other people... (Its probably a lot of things that you don't even realize, Autum) things like being able to look at the ubermob you are killing and not just a wall or a floor (tho a bit better now than it was in the olden days). Anyways, just to echo the others, would suggest that you talk to a retired cleric, play a cleric yourself - full time! or thorougly read the cleric boards

Originally posted by Wyte
SOLD! You can mem our best Regen (Blessing of Replenishment), and we can mem your Word of Restoration (Cleric 57 spell, a few spell circles below the best), k?

/Agree

SOLD

Grats on your NEW improved regenline!

Tubby

Originally posted by Batou
Regening 25 hp/tick when mobs hit for 800+ means 32 ticks per HIT to regen. Regen is pretty useless these days. When I have BoR cast on me, my regen is 43/46 per tick and it still makes virtualy no difference in my seurviability.

It might be different at the levels higher than I am, but right now a regen would fit perfectly for how I play. I rarely use CH in LDoN; I usually just drop a HoT on the tank and then run off to do more pacifying. :)

- Pirsquared, level 53 cleric on E. Marr

I usually just drop a HoT on the tank and then run off to do more pacifying.

^ mmm, how's that for utility? It has been a while since the last major round of class comparisons, but I think a lot has changed since the pre-iCH days. Clerics now have buffs for Spell Haste, buffs for melee damage reduction, and lull that works both indoors and out. With AA, they have Divine Arbitration for an aggro-free fast heal, and Celestial Renewal for a free, MGBable group heal over time. Yaulp allows clerics to stay standing and maintain high mana regeneration, making melee an option when paired with the high-proc rate hammer.

When one considers all the options available to clerics on raids, keeping them in the chain seems to me at least, to be tapping only part of their potential. If the cheal-chain abilities of druids or shamans or paladins were increased, more clerics could take on new responsibilities like maintaining Bulwark of Vie and Divine Intervention on key tanks, group elixirs, group cheals for intense AE fights. In short, they could protect entire groups, and maintain a watch over the entire raid, while chain duties could be distributed among all priests (healers?) present. I think it would be fun for everyone, except perhaps the most diehard of the evocation druids ;)

Originally posted by Autumn10
As far as clerics having more stress, no they do not. Stress comes from healing(among other possible things). Any primary healer will feel the same amount. It doesn't depend on the class but the act of healing. I know for myself it's stressful when people go down in my group when I'm primary healer because I am responsible for keeping them alive. I beat myself up more than they do when I let someone down. Life isn't perfect and things happen but that's how serious I take healing so don't tell me clerics have more stress than any other priest class because they DON'T. The few clerics I know that left did so because of cheal rotation boredom and not being able to solo, NOT because of stress. I have heard these reasons given as to why most other clerics have left also.

Autumn10 sorry but that's complete BS.

Because clerics have the death grip on raid healing at the moment we are the ones who take the crap for any failures, be it our mistakes or mistakes by other people (postioning of mobs etc.) all people see is the tank go down and 60mins+ of there time wasted. There is very little margin for error.

And god forbid you have to leave the raid early or are not able to raid at all, because that could mean that the whole guild doesn't raid. Fortuantly this doens't happen in my current guild, but I've talked to plenty of other clerics on emarr and other servers where they feel guilty about having to log and it doesn't help when people send them tells trying to guilt trip them in to staying on.

The game design has pushed clerics in this direction and I'm afraid that it's very unlikey to change. I truly wish it could I would like some variety in my role but I doubt that SoE could balance the game with such a drastic change, lets face it there track record isn't stellar in this matter :p

The reason it's like that is because only clerics have CH and clicky res. (Not to mention 200% better heals (or more) in every department over the 2nd best classes... pallies, shamans and druids. A margin of superiority that no other class has on their "core" abilities.)

Until other classes get those, that will never change.

And clerics, in general, dont want to see those abilities shared out.

Therefor, clerics are their own worst enemies in terms of getting their raid role changed.

SoE has already started expanding a cleric's raiding role, experimenting with new types of buffs like BoV. I suspect you'll see those lines continue. In exchange, I also expect that the abilities that you currently have a lock on will become less restricted. You will eventually get your wish, and all that entails.

What that means, ultimately, is that a cleric will be less desireable to have on a raid. Are you really ready to give that up?

Originally posted by Tiane
What that means, ultimately, is that a cleric will be less desireable to have on a raid. Are you really ready to give that up?

Hmmm good question Tiane. Am I ready to give up the role that the cleric had been cornered into. I think so yes, but I'm struggling to see a role that we can take on other than that.

Chances are whatever abilty we might possible get will step on other classes toes and make them feel less viable. I think SoE has struggled with this problem and just taken the easy way out and that has left us in the postion we are in.

So I still think it comes down to two questions.

1) do we need to remove cleric healing lock on raids ?

2) If clerics are not needed for there healing power what are we needed for ?

I think most people would answer yes to 1 but it's going to be damm hard to change the game fairly without an decent answer to 2.

Bearing in mind that I don't speak for anyone but myself on this issue :D my views don't reflect my guild or my class views just my own ;)

I think you could answer number 2 by looking at the other dozen classes that arent particularly necessary to have at a raid or in a group.

i.e. There is no *one* thing you can point to and say, yes, I need that class in my group/raid in x number. Instead you simply know that it's good to have one or a few.

Not having a defined role is something druids are pretty familiar with, and is unfortunately still fairly widespread among many classes these days, even after all the balancing effort put forth by the devs.

The mindset of needing to have a defined role is a bad thing, imho, and is brought out by having too many classes competing for too few group spots or raid spots.

The alternative, which we seem to be heading towards, of each class having a wider area of abilities, has some advantages. But it does reduce our individuality. Still, it's really the only option for EQ at this stage in the game.

Okay Tiane I see your point, Don't really agree with it but I see it :D

Maybe I look at things in a to simplistic way but in groups/raids I see 5 main types.

Tanks
Healers
DPS
Slowers/debuffers
CC

Clerics don't have significant ablities in any other type except healing and if we are not needed for that we need to gain ablities in another area. Trouble is I see that blurring the class lines more than they are at the moment and I'm not sure thats a good thing. Maybe it is and I'm just resistant to change but I would like to think not :)

Eh long discussion. Good points all around.

I dont feel qualified yet to add too much to this. I am only VT geared and working to break in the EP (almost there!). The only troubles healing I have during normal LDoN adventures are when I have a pickup group of lower AA and equip peeps, and I take on the role of puller, CC and main healer...

However I do see what others are saying, and I would tend to agree. Soon as a tank hits around 10k, and doing worthy mobs, I see the healing role of the druid fading. A sub-5k CH pales in comparison to 12k hp. So does a 1750 hp spam heal (thank god our AAs improve that - but still). None of our spells can efficiently heal a group at this raiding level.

I hear rumors of a new expansion coming out. Perhaps something will come out for us in there...

Callahad

Melees more often than not take the blame for most raid wipes, and wizards and magicians. Why? Pushing mobs into walls. Pushing mobs oor of CH range. Pulling AEing mobs into cleric camps. Overnuking and getting agro, making the agro jump, or perhaps if summon timer is down make the mob run to the caster and really make the agro jump. Using their ghey mass pet AAs to really push the mobs etc.

Healers -very- rarely gets blamed for any wipes.
The pushing bit is actually the reason of blame I see most often. When I rarely see someone casting blame that is.

Ive just spent 13hrs at work so im unable to spend time trolling through these posts seeing if things are personal or not.

However drop the subject in regards to who gave whos insult first ok...you both reported to mods ...I dont want this tit for tat thing ok.

Bring it up again and ill mod your post and I dont care if its a personal insult or not...you have been warned. That means anyone else who brings it again from this point forward (well mods / admins can haha).

Back to your regular discussion please! :)

Tils

i played a high level cleric in the 2 best guilds on SZ
ruin before luclin
hate after. i also played a level 65 bard in hate and while the bard was a lot more challenging than the cleric. being a cleric in the only real raiding guild on the server was a lot more stressful. i cant think of a way to describe how much but i imagine the difference was even though the cleric was easy compared to bard its a lot less of a selfish class. being put through the demands of a high level guilds time schedule was fierce. pre luclin we were killing every raid target higher than nagafen every week.

whenever a raid fails. clerics got the blame. the only times we ever had to cancel a raid was because of lack of clerics..

i know all these have been said but i just wanted to point out that

*pay real close attention*

amount of challenge in playing a class compared to another != the amount of stress between the 2 classes.

I guess you havent been on a rotation for a hard new mob where mistakes of just a second of delay on the CH chain can easily wipe the raid.

And perhaps your guild has so many clerics that you can have half of them not log on and still raid just fine, but thats not the case with most guilds.

However I do see what others are saying, and I would tend to agree. Soon as a tank hits around 10k, and doing worthy mobs, I see the healing role of the druid fading. A sub-5k CH pales in comparison to 12k hp. So does a 1750 hp spam heal (thank god our AAs improve that - but still). None of our spells can efficiently heal a group at this raiding level.

I heal at 50% of tank's hp or so. it usually heal to full with time geared tanks. ( you looking at 9 to 11 k tanks ) With KR that is. I have no problem with that. I only use NI for small heals and fast ones =p

Clerics get alot of stress when raiding, you have alot of different jobs to do. 1. Keep your own group alive, 2. Keep your raid's MT alive. 3. Responible to endless buff request. 4. Rez people. Is alot of job for them and failing to do any of the 4 things above maybe make you a bad cleric in people's minds.

Might I suggest we drop the issue of clerics possibly having the most stress on raids. It's clear that some do not feel the same - for whatever reason. And not just Autumn. I'm sure there is a silent percentage of readers that agree but prefer not get into it. Over 50% of effective communication is listening. Reading and understanding and post acknowledgement is what that translates to on the Internet boards. I have a level 56 druid, just a baby in respect to this thread topic. So I cannot truthfully say that I intimately understand whatever stress druids may feel either. The other possiblity is player personality type. Some people thrive off what others would call stress. Who knows. Just drop it. In my opinion.

The whole point of this thread is druidic healing has failed to scale appropriately for Tier 4 and above planes and possibly raids. Because the mobs hit so hard, healers need signifigant and fast heals to keep up. Clerics in the past have felt that this is their domain and some are very protective of that. That is understandable.

Druids would like group heals and fast signifigant heals. Some want complete heal (or a stronger version of their iCH) so they can contribute to raids on a more direct level. Personally, I don't care if they get bigger and better heals at the high end game. In some cases, I would prefer that they would. I contend it would lessen the inherent stress of playing the cleric class, but that argument has gotten nowhere (at least not visibly). So I'll let you math mavens hash out what you think is an acceptable scaling up of druid heals. For the most part that has already been done.

The specific reason why I don't mind if druids get better and faster heals is that their use will be highly situational. Druids have practically no way to deal with healing aggro on unrootable or unsnarable mobs. Some would say there isn't ever that, since the mobs hit so hard. To effectively use the heals, the group will need to be highly tuned to save the healer from being beat into a pulp. Clerics can hit invulnerability. It's not 100%, but it does make healing aggro management easier.

Who knows, maybe the next thing after bigger and better heals for druids is the sound and very reasonable request for ways to deal with the healing aggro. Sounds like a logical extension. I could be sounding the death bell for clerics everywhere by wanting and in some cases preferring druids getting closer to cleric heals. This is just my opinion, I do not and could not represent any other clerics. I can only present how I feel about it.

-Krys
65 cleric
Bristlebane server

I'll make it bare so that way its simple for what I'd see is reasonable.


KR (druid CH) = make HG work with it, cut the cost from 600 down to 500 mana.

Group heal idea = group chloroblast. 428 each person in the group...effected by HA and HG. up to debate on mana cost.


Nature's Infusion = drop mana cost from 500 to 400, lower casting time to 3.0 secs so its still affected by healing spell haste focuses.


That's what I can see for being reasonable. Leave out all the super heal bonuses, HoT's, full cleric level CH, rezzes, etc. Something as simple as what I've listed above, would give druid's a fighting chance to handle the stand-in roles, but not take away from the cleric's healing dominance.

Did a bit of research (not much) and put together 2 possible group heals for Druids.
Please comment on them, tell if they are fine, improvements, changes, totally sack them, whatever, just let me know what you think ;)
Have included a variance of especially Paladin spells to compare to, and 1 Cleric spell that I don't think we should try to limit them against (please bear in mind level difference etc.).
The 2 possible new group heals have been highlighted in another color.
Kept the names in line with the Single target spell they originated from. Should also leave out any religious (Karana vs. Tunare) quarrels ;)


Nature's Touch (DRU/60)
-----
Mana: 400
Casting Time: 5.5
Recast Time: 2.25
Range: 200
Target Type: Single
Increase Hitpoints by 978


*Nature's Embrace (DRU/63) (Level fair IMO, others?)
Mana: 850 (Mana ratio based on Paladins Light of Nife/Wave of Marr)
Casting Time: 5.5 (Untouched, should be changed?)
Recast Time: 5 (Give it a bit higher recast makes it less powerfull, allthough not much, rarely have to chaincast group heal)
AE Range: 100 (Decreased range from single, to keep in line with Paladins group heal range)
Target Type: Group v2 (Untouched, it -must be- TGBable so that you can help save other healerless groups)
Increase Hitpoints by 978 (Untouched, allthough to keep in line with the differences between Light of Nife and Wave of Marr it should perhaps be increased by 50 Hitpoints?)


Chloroblast (DRU/55)
-----
Mana: 175
Casting Time: 3
Recast Time: 2.25
Range: 200
Target Type: Single
Increase Hitpoints by 418


*Group Chloroblast (DRU/57) (Level based on the Paladins Light of Nife/Wave of Marr)
Mana: 370 (Mana ratio based on Paladins Light of Nife/Wave of Marr, 175*(850/500) rounded down)
Casting Time: 3 (Untouched, should be changed to 4?)
Recast Time: 5 (Give it a bit higher recast makes it less powerfull, allthough not much, rarely have to chaincast group heal)
AE Range: 100 (Decreased range from single, to keep in line with Paladins group heal range)
Target Type: Group v2 (Untouched, it -must be- TGBable so that you can help save other healerless groups)
Increase Hitpoints by 418 (Untouched, allthough to keep in line with the differences between Light of Nife and Wave of Marr it should perhaps be increased by 50 Hitpoints?)


Wave of Marr (PAL/65)
-----
Mana: 850
Casting Time: 3
Recast Time: 30
AE Range: 100
Target Type: Group v2
Increase Hitpoints by 900


Light of Nife (PAL/63)
-----
Mana: 400
Casting Time: 1
Recast Time: 5
Range: 100
Target Type: Single
Increase Hitpoints by 850


Touch of Nife (PAL/61)
-----
Mana: 450
Casting Time: 5
Recast Time: 2.25
Range: 200
Target Type: Single
Increase Hitpoints by 1125


Healing Wave of Prexus (PAL/58)
-----
Mana: 650
Casting Time: 3
Recast Time: 30
Range: 100
Target Type: Group v2
Increase Hitpoints by 660


Wave of Healing (PAL/55)
-----
Mana: 450
Casting Time: 2
Recast Time: 60
AE Range: 100
Target Type: Group v2
Increase Hitpoints by 220


Light of Life (PAL/52)
-----
Mana: 215
Casting Time: 1.5
Recast Time: 7
Range: 100
Target Type: Single
Increase Hitpoints by 410


Word of Restoration (CLR/57)
-----
Mana: 900
Casting Time: 4.5
Recast Time: 2.25
AE Range: 70
Target Type: Group v2
Increase Hitpoints by 720 (L57) to 750 (L60)

A couple of comments

- None of the group instant heals are TGBable because they aren’t buffs. If you want to try and save other groups with them then you’ll be out of luck.

- Most of the paladin group heals are significantly more efficient, faster casting and have a better range than the cleric group heals. Seems to me that this is because paladins effectively specialise in group heals (plus very fast heals) so get better spells for that purpose.

Let's imagine for a moment that changes are made to both classes. We find a balanced and mutually agreeable way to sort out certain cleric problems so that druid changes can go in while maintaining class balance.

(Actually, Blessing of Replenishment for clerics would be huge. Yes, I know that druids in this thread have dismissed it compared to Word of Replenishment, but speaking as a cleric, I know which spell I'd use more.)

Group heals, as any cleric or paladin will tell you, have a substantial aggro cost. Paladins sometimes use group heals specifically for aggro purposes, just as they use stuns.

Well, druids already sometimes walk a fine line with aggro. Chuck in a group heal as suggested above with the same aggro component as cleric/paladin group heals, and I think we have a perfect recipe for pureed druid.

I think that if the game were to change to the extent where healing versatility for druids was a reasonable option, we'd need to look at three spells: A single-target heal over time, a direct group heal for when the druid could afford the aggro cost, and a group heal over time along the lines of a slightly cut down Ethereal Elixir for those dicey high-aggro-but-still-need-to-heal moments.

They did? When was this because I must have blinked and missed it. As far as I have known druids have always been a very versatile and useful class, having abilities to heal, nuke, dot and with a large number of other utility abilities. Not the best in any one area, but good at a lot of them.

Obviously, you've never been LFG for 5 hours and hear repeatedly "Go quad-kite dr00d". And this is with an impeccable server rep, I can't imagine what it was like for the "real dr00ds".

Just had to make mention of this as I happened across your post Amonra :)

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, I agree with Autumn on one point. It's being in the primary healing roles that cause high stress. In groups, I'd say that being a druid primary healer may be even worse. We have less of the tools, and no [rez] safety lock. On raids, I can't speak for, since my guild never will speak up against the clerics [healers since there are atleast 2 druids almost always in the chain] as they know that we are the reason they can continue to raid the Eles and Time each night. There *has* been once or twice in my memory that it has happened, but that was *quickly* snuffed out by other members and/or officers.

I hear rumors of a new expansion coming out. Perhaps something will come out for us in there...

YES! We get a GROUP WOLFFORM that is ORANGE! Grats druids!

Well, druids already sometimes walk a fine line with aggro. Chuck in a group heal as suggested above with the same aggro component as cleric/paladin group heals, and I think we have a perfect recipe for pureed druid.

That is probably the major gripe about the druid class. Get yourself well kitted and some useful aa abilities and its hard to use your mana without being summoned. It gets a little easier grouped with warriors that have some nice eb weapons but try and throw in a debuff or a heal for rampaging tanks and your walking a fine line.

Even sks get casting subtelty and they generally want the aggro.

- None of the group instant heals are TGBable because they aren’t buffs. If you want to try and save other groups with them then you’ll be out of luck.If it's target type Group v2 it is TGBable (or aI am completely mistaken), just look at Ethereal Elixir.

Originally posted by Kagonis
If it's target type Group v2 it is TGBable (or aI am completely mistaken), just look at Ethereal Elixir.

Ethereal Elixir is a heal over time (i.e. a short duration buff). The heals you are looking at are instant heals (i.e. not buffs). TGB stands for Target Group BUFF. Therefore if it’s not a buff, you can’t cast it on other groups.

Originally posted by Stormlin
YES! We get a GROUP WOLFFORM that is ORANGE! Grats druids!

OMG !!!!!! I call Nerf orange is to overpowered it has to be purple

:D :D

If it wipes because of a one second difference then it was probably going to wipe anyway. If this game was that exact nobody would accomplish anything because I have yet to see anything in game(or real life for that matter) go absolutely perfect. '

You obvious havent played in time if you say this =)

Originally posted by Autumn10
If it wipes because of a one second difference then it was probably going to wipe anyway. If this game was that exact nobody would accomplish anything because.... It sounds like you either don't have PoP or you don't raid past SSRA. This isn't a put down, but just leads me to better understand why you don't yet see the cleric dilemma.

For some of the rest of you.....SOE isn't going to ever make Druids or Shamen as viable at healing as you are asking because it would be the last nail in the coffin for the cleric class. Who would ever want to play *just* a healer when they could make a char to be a primary healer that had other talents as well? They need to find a way to make a cleric FUN without making the rest of us totally impotent. They made the class USEFUL, but they left out the fun part.

And two-boxing isn't the answer. It just ADDS stress to the REAL clerics playing. I don't care how good you are, when you two box you never can be quite 100%. The "real" clerics (ie the clerics playing only clerics) have to take up the slack, real and perceived.

For some of the rest of you.....SOE isn't going to ever make Druids or Shamen as viable at healing as you are asking because it would be the last nail in the coffin for the cleric class. Who would ever want to play *just* a healer when they could make a char to be a primary healer that had other talents as well?

Keep in mind we are limited in our heals until level 58, we are especially futile between 44-58 when it comes to heals. We can't act as main healer then [with the exception of normal LDoN, I've had a druid healer for that, but we lost due to pull rate because of OOM druid(this was on my alt)], and really have a rough go of it when we hit 58 with only Chloroblast as a quick heal when the CH isn't going to land in time. Especially true with the DPS output of even teir1 PoP exp mobs (anything beyond is going to be risky without NI).

So to say we can act as main healer? Sure, a 65 Druid with decent gear and AA can main heal just about anywhere, but your average bazaar Druid at say 62 or 63 is going to have a much rougher time of it. This is where a cleric truly shines. Even in bazaar gear, they can keep the exp flowing in.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want Clerics to feel "pointless", but at the same time, I want to be able to raid without waiting for our resident 2-boxers to log on. Granted, I can hold up in a CH chain, but not all of our druids can. And alot of them don't even want to. They prefer to nuke, so I heal to give them that chance!

Right now, clerics mostly have a monopoly on raid healing, which would be fine if so many healers weren't needed for today's end game content. Unfortunately, a retarded amount of healing is needed for nearly every encounter ele+, and as such, you have to plan accordingly. Huge AE's, procs, Ramp and/or AE Ramp. Resisting isn't even a possibility everytime with 500 resists alot of times. For example, let's talk about Saryrn in PoTime. She casts a mana dot listed below:

Horrifying Affliction
1: Decrease Spell Damage by 50%
2: Decrease Mana by 175 per tick
3: Decrease Mana Pool by 500
Spell Type: Detrimental Skill: Innate
Mana: 0 Target Type: PB AE
Casting Time: Instant Duration: 4 ticks
Recast Time: 30 Resist: Disease (-300)
Fizzle Time: 0.00 Range to target: 0
AE Radius: 300 Interruptable: Yes
Location: Any Time of Day: Any
Reflectable: No

Now, this has 300 range so it is unavoidable. Even with a 500 DR, I only resist about 60% of the time. Now, imagine how hard it is with bot clerics. Sure we equipt them when we can, but they aren't *nearly* as geared as our main priests. So, this requires a decently long CH chain, that won't be OOM in the first minute of fighting. Now you tell me how a druid can be expected to fill in on this chain (even though I have) without going OOM with KR costing 600 mana? And after that, tell me how we are supposed to excrete the clerics necessary to do the chain without druids to suppliment ;)

So again, I say, with the amount of people not playing the cleric class, how is it we are supposed to continue raiding unless we create bot clerics and give them loot over our main priests. How fair would that be? When we have druids that are ready and willing to fill the gaps when necessary, if we only had the necessary tools.

Autumn, I will again have to respectfully disagree with you. I have played a main 65 cleric for 3 years up including elemental planes and a main 65 druid for the past year including elemental planes.

I disagree with you on the part that any class with the ability to heal can't afk.

As a druid I do not play main healer constantly, therefore I can sometimes go afk without fear of deaths, because if we are good on clerics, then I am nuking, and if the mob doesn't get nuked by me for 2 minutes, that's ususally not that big of a deal than if I was a main healer. I enjoy doing damage and critting, and if the **** hits the fan, then I can stop and help the raid recover through heals and the other tools that I have. That's why I like playing a druid over a wizard, for example. I have a wide range of tools and can put them into place where they are needed or use them in unexpected ways that can really help a lot, and are fun! I am not pigeon-held into one specific job but each raid I might be doing something different. I have options and the ability to exercise a good deal of them on raids, hindered only by aggro (grr)

I disagree with this statement
Other classes get blamed just as much when things go wrong as clerics do and are needed just as much on raids.

This I just don't understand. You say that other classes are needed just as much on raids as clerics. Then why are clerics needed in such disproportionate numbers than any other class?

From trakanon to rathe council I've seen the clerics get the blame a lot, in several different guilds, be it deserved or not. Some people see it as--"I died, therefore I didn't get healed fast enough, therefore its the cleric's fault." If the guild(s) that you've been in have never once blamed only clerics than I'm quite surprised. Simply put cleric mistakes are more easily noticed, and more critical than many other classes mistakes. A wizard doesn't notice that his nuke fizzled? Doesn't really matter that much. A cleric doesn't notice that his ch fizzled? Could be the cause of a wipe. This is the big part of where the stress comes in. Clerics don't get a break from healing on raids.

What caused me to quit playing a cleric and move to a druid? Simple. Playing a cleric became too much like work to me, tedious and stressful. Every time I played the cleric it became me playing for the enjoyment of others, and not myself. I saw many of my cleric companions echo the same complaints in cleric channel and quit for the same reasons.

Perhaps your experiences have differed from mine, but to say that druids(and other classes) have clerics beat to hell and back in terms of stress seems odd to say in itself. Personally I have had TONS more fun playing a druid than I ever did playing a cleric, and TONS less stress. Deciding which druid will debuff a mob and then being free to chose whether I focus all my energies on healing or partly on healing and partly on nuking is nice, knowing that I am chosing my style of playing for both the guild and myself, (somtimes chosing more for the benefit of the guild and sometimes chosing more for my personal enjoyment) and not just the guild which I had to do as a cleric is nice. The main reason being that I have variety as a druid. I can do other things beside healing which I dislike to do on a main-healer basis.

While I had options as a cleric such as which heal to use leading up to the boss mob, other options were just not available to me. Such as say you had a bad day at work and just want to nuke or melee during a raid, but don't have a huge amount of clerics? Too bad, to the ch order or rez line you go. But you really, really want to nuke for just that one day and not be pigeon-held in a twenty minute ch chain? Well, be prepared for a lot of yelling and guilt tripping till you either cave or log. As a cleric you have constant responsibilities to your guild and raid that push out responsibilities to yourself to have fun, daily. I play eq for my enjoyment... not only for others' enjoyment, which is what it became as a cleric, and that was stressful.

I love the druid class. I love its versatility and I love playing and raiding with one. If you think our versatility is a cause for stress than that saddens me because that's one of the points I love best about the druid. Personally I think that a group HOT, such as an actual spirit of the wood spell, for raids would be perfect for finishing up our raid heals, and then would love for VI to look at some sort of aggro reducer spell/ability for us so that we can continue to make use of our versatility without fear of being killed, as well as looking at raid encounters---we need more mobs where dps is the critical factor, not healing.

As a druid I do not play main healer constantly, therefore I can sometimes go afk without fear of deaths

Everything you've said goes back to the quoted statement. Everything hinges on one thing you seem to be missing. You are talking about NOT playing your druid as a Main Healer. I promise you, if you play him as a main healer you WILL have the same stress as a cleric has, as you are performing the *same* job with a weaker ability (spell).

So, your argument is flawed in it's very essense. Of COURSE you can afk if you are performing as a nuker. But if you are in the chain (which some of us *always* do out of necessity) then you are no different then a cleric performing the same role, except you are paying 150% of the mana for 2000 hps less healed. Not to mention, I still take my spot in the MGB SotW chain when applicable on top of my duties as a chain healer.

EDIT: To give you perspective, there are certain MOB's that we use a druid chain on instead of a cleric chain. In those cases, I'm listed in two different chains and I have to perform in both.

I have a question, maybe some can answer...

What % of the game needs to have a cleric (only) healer/chain?

Can we list all of the encounter(s)?

Was looking around and happened upon a link to this thread. Read most of the thread and was quite amazed. Many druids are very happy with where they stand in the game. Many others are not and should probably reroll as a cleric. Druids, if you think your class is getting screwed and you need more powerful heals, watch as I break down the reason why you don't deserve any more better heals (until new expansions come along of course, but let's not get into hypothetical situations, as nobody really knows what new spells we are going to get next expansion).

Couple things you should know about me first.. I played a druid to 60 + a few little aa, then played warrior, then cleric to 65 + 400aa. This post is made from the perspective of a raiding cleric in Time, never raided with druid though.

I don't really need to break down the complete (or not so complete) heals in great detail, as it has been done a thousand times on this thread alone. Let's suffice to say that cleric cheal is about 50 - 70% better than druid cheal (depends on the hp of the tank really, as well as situation). I would point out though, that even though I normally group with 9.5k - 10.5k, my cheals generally hit for 6k, which is only slightly more than a druid cheal with AHA3 will land for.

>>>Let's also take a look at spot heals. NI is 3.5 heal/mana ratio. Sup Remedy is 3.625 ratio. This means cleric spot heal is 3.6% better on mana savings. Whee. Biggest problem for druids on this seems to be cast time. Thing about remedy is, it is 1.8 sec cast time, so no spell haste foci will work on it. For druids, NI is 3.75 sec cast time. This can be decreased easily with spell haste items. It is fairly easy to acquire a spell haste 4 item, which grants 15% spell haste, taking NI to 3.2 sec. Throw a BoR on during raids and you get to 2.8 seconds. Now, for most raiding druids in EP or beyond, getting a 20% beneficial (haste of mithaniel) item should be fairly easy. I have seen many of these drop, as early as solro tower from Arylxir, and being guild leader in a guild with merit reward system, we almost always gave these to druids first, as we knew what it meant for their spot heals. I'm sure most other guilds with merit systems have the same thinking. Anyway, this is 20% spell haste on beneficial spells (heals/buffs). Without a cleric around for BoR, this puts your spot heal at 3 sec flat. Not too shabby.

I see a lot of druids comparing our Supernal Light to NI. While it's a good attempt to make our heals look better, the truth is, clerics don't use supernal light a whole lot. Why? because it chews mana fast and has a slightly longer cast time than remedy. It is only used in specialized occasions. But, none the less, let's compare it to NI. NI has 3.5 ratio, SL has 4.58 ratio. This is a 31% increase in efficiency. Same 3.75 sec cast time, so no variations there. Although we rarely use this spell, it is our most efficient, and I'll go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt and use this 31% figure for the rest of the post.

Now that we have compared one aspect of the two classes, let's move on to the other 90% of our spellbooks.

>>>First, let's compare damage shields.
Druids get two forms of damage shields. Single target and group. Clerics get 1 type, which is cast on the mob. I will assume druids are using group damage shield for my calculations, which only helps you guys out when comparing mana used. Druid damage shield (Legacy of Bracken) lasts 6.5 minutes (assuming no buff extension aa or focus items) and does 40 damage. It costs 380 mana to use. Cleric reverse ds (Mark of Righteous) costs 200 mana, does 32 damage, and lasts 3.5 minutes.

Now, this little equation may confuse some, but it's really very simple. Simply take the amout of damage on damage shield, multiply it by how long it lasts, then divide it by the mana cost. This gives you a rough idea of its efficiency. LoB = .684, MoR = .56. This means that Druid damage shield is 22% better than cleric reverse ds. This is also assuming that a) the mob doesn't resist MoR (has nice resist adjust, so not really resisted much) and b) the mob stays alive for all 3.5 minutes . This is where the druid ds shines. You don't have to recast it on every single mob. If we are in a group situation, mobs are dying in 1 minute or less and the reverse ds becomes so inefficient that it is useless. Also keep in mind that your ds can be extended by common focus items and easily acquired aa points. Our MoR can only be extended by rare focus items, most of which will never go to a cleric in a merit based system (I wouldn't allow it in my guild, dotting/debuffing classes deserve much more).

>>>Next topic: nukes.
Clerics: Condemnation, 6.5 sec cast time, 7 sec recast, 365 mana, 1100 damage. Judgement, 6.5 sec cast time, 7 sec recast, 325 mana, 925 damage.
Druids: Winter's Frost, 6.35 sec cast time, 2.75 sec recast, 390 mana, 1550 damage. Summer's Flame, 6.25 sec cast time, 2.75 sec recast, 355 mana, 1400 damage.

First, let's compare efficiency. Condemnation is 3.01, Judgement is 2.75, WF is 3.97, SF is 3.94. So, your 2nd best nuke is 31% better than our best one in efficiency. Also, we cannot chain cast condemnation, due to the recast time, so let's look at a situation of chain casting nukes to see how much mana is used vs. how much damage is done. Now, assuming that the time between cleric nukes are 2 seconds (actually a bit more than this, but let's make things easy), a cleric will get off 7 of each nuke in 2 minutes. This is 14175 damage for 4830 mana. A druid will either chain cast 13 of either spell. If it's WF, that is 20150 damage for 5070 mana. If using SF, that is 18200 damage for 4615 mana. Either way, he is outdamaging the cleric in dps as well as maintaining between 34% and 35% better efficiency. As for agro, I have not seen conclusive evidence that pushback creates agro at all, so I'd say we're about equal here.

The other nukes that the classes get are destroy summoned (druid) and destroy undead (cleric). They are both 1200 damage for 300 mana, making them the most efficient nukes for both classes. They both have 5 sec cast time and neg 100 resist adjust, making them hard to resist. So they are essentially the same, though situational. You can argue that you run into undead more in some places, or argue that you run into summoned more in others. I really don't watch for summoned mobs to nuke, as my summoned nukes blow, but from what mage friends tell me, they are about equal to undead. So we tie on these situational nukes, which are rarely used anyway.

>>>Next topic, dots.
Well, this is a hard topic to compare, as the only dots clerics get are vs. undead, but let's just assume that we are fighting undead so that the two may be compared. Druids get Swarming Death. It does 240/tick for 6 ticks for 350 mana. This is 4.11 damage per mana. The best undead dot that clerics get is sermon of penitence, which is 205/tick for 5 ticks for 300 mana. This is a whopping 3.42 ratio, less than our undead nuke. Therefore, no cleric is going to use this spell unless a) they are brain damaged from reading the Druid's Grove too much or b) they are level 62 or 63. Anyway, even if they do use this dot, yours beats ours by 20%. Grats again.

>>>Next topic, resist buffs.
PR - We are equal, both getting that uber spell, Resist Poison.
DR - Same, resist disease.
MR - Same again, resist magic.
FR and CR - Clerics get to use resist fire and resist cold still, offering us a juicy 40 FR and CR respectively. Druids get Protection of the Seasons, granting 72 FR/CR. That is 80% better. Since it's only 2 of the 5 resists though, I'll call it 32% (that's 40% of 80%, for those scratching your heads).

>>>Moving on to movement and other utility buffs.
Druids get a variety of movement buffs. Can't really compare these types of buffs quantitatively, so we'll have to a qualitative comparison. From low levels, I was always bumming sow from druids and crying as I died shortly after it wore off. Sow was only the start though. At level 54, you get spirit of eagle, which is faster than sow, as well as granting lev, see invis and infravision. You also get this handy spell called camoflauge, which makes you invisible! Druids also get self and group ports, as well as succor.
Clerics get... to use lev potions, use invis potions, use the PoK books (granted, this makes the port difference for druids minimal, though I do love evacing after an ldon mission where we pac'ed 40% of the way and don't feel like pac'ing back out), and ask for ports when the run is too much of a pain.
Druids, you own us in this category, but you won't see me asking for any of these utility spells.

>>>hp/ac buffs
We're nearly equals here. On raids, we use our buffs to compliment each other for the best, with druids casting bot9 and clerics casting symbol/wog. In xp groups, I always use HoV unless I have a druid in group. Not really sure what druids do, but if I still played mine and was main healer, I'd bum a symbol from someone, as it lasts > 90 minutes coming from anyone with decent aa. Your buffs add to mana regen, ours don't (except for our self buff), which makes you more compatible for a caster built group.

>>>Other various spells
Druids get snare, your root costs half the mana and lasts 4.5 times as long (same resist adjust) as clerics. You get CR/FR debuffs that also debuff atk/ac. Clerics get DA and rezz. Druids get charm and dire charm, both of which are somewhat useful in some situations. We both get pets which do about the same dps and have the same hp. Difference being that ours poofs after each fight and must be recast. Druids also get regen, which is extremely nice. All in all, we're about even in this category as well.

So, let's look at the scorecard. X marks the more efficient class and what % more efficient they are (no % means qualitative assessment).

Subject -------------- Cleric --------------- Druid ----------------
cheals -------------- X (50-70%)
spot heals ---------- X (31%)
Damage shields -------------------------- X (22% at least)
Nukes ---------------------------------------- X (30-35%)
Dots -------------------------------------------- X (20%)
Resists ----------------------------------------- X (32%)
Utility spells -------------------------------------- X
AC/HP buffs -------------------- tie
Other ---------------------------- tie

I dunno, looks like druids are doing fine so far.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure most of you fell asleep or forgot your Ritalin and stopped reading after I mentioned nukes, so I'll be quick. Druids, you own us in pretty much every category besides heals. Why shouldn't our heals be far superior to yours? Why should you have a significant advantage over us in nukes, dots, resist buffs and utility spells, and then keep near us on the one thing clerics were made for?

I know many of you say that you don't want to be as good as clerics in healing, just nearly as good. I will argue that a well played druid can do just as well as a cleric in nearly any situation. Your one weakness on healing is your inability to group heal reliably. I'd agree that druids should get a minor group heal (something similar to paladin group heals), but to ask to get stronger complete heals and spot heals is begging to have your other functions removed or nerfed hard. You have probably heard this before, but if you want to heal like a cleric, make a cleric. If you want to heal almost as good as a cleric, make a ****ty cleric. If you want to heal just enough to keep a group alive as well as have great versitility to do things besides heal, then play your druid.

One final bit of trivia for you. What is the most efficient healing spell in the game? Blessing of replenishment at 47.3 hp/mana. Cheal is not too far behind at 18.75 though ~

I like how you attempted to cover up the issues with lots of hits and numbers at druids' other abilities. These are typical ploys to attempt to drag everyone away from the issue being discussed and guilt-trip those who are defending the issue.


However you proved the merit of your information with this...


One final bit of trivia for you. What is the most efficient healing spell in the game? Blessing of replenishment at 47.3 hp/mana. Cheal is not too far behind at 18.75 though ~



If you think a 25hp/tick regen is an efficient heal in the upper level game, you've just destroyed your chance at credibility.

Ok please correct me if i am wrong, but this whole post is centered around a raiding aspect for the most part. So that is what i address. And for all those who say "What about the casual player who wants to heal in every pickup group", well my responce to that is easy, you can and yes i will admit that it is more difficult for you to do so that a cleric but once again as you know that is what the cleric does. A clerics designed to be the best at his given job which is healing, and to exspect to be equal to a cleric in every aspect of the game is absoulty redicoulus. And before you say that you dont want to be equal just good enough to do the job under any conditions or say you that all you want is certain spells only weaker versions of the cleric's, I will go ahead and reply now, you can post all the numbers and ratios you wish and then tell me how i am neglecting to observe them, or take them into consideration, however in truth outside of the raid situation they matter very little. If you are given group heals, HoT's, better quick heals, and larger CH type heals or any combination thier of then YOU WILL MAKE THE CLERIC CLASS WORTHLESS, you can say if you wish that we have rezz, or wht ever else you wish, but in truth wether you admit it or not a cleric is never invited to a group for anything other than healing; However a druid is asked to a group for healing, evac's, and yes their much denied versitility. So go ahead and try to blurr the situation into something other than it.

Now with that said, I will address the majority of the druid comunity who are not attempting to become some super class and get cleric healing and wizzard's nukes. As for the raid situation, ok you all wish to be more relevent and needed on all raids not just situational. I truly believe that due to class envy on both sides noone has really stated a valid argument. I see the question as "How can raiding druids become more vauled without making the cleric class obsulete in other areas". Ok first with the introduction of the PoP area druid heals you all have are now able to preform as primary healer in almost any group type situation, those situations in which you cant is what still gives the cleric an edge and prevents them from becoming worthless thier. So how do we change the raid envirment without it affecting the other areas.

A Few Ideas:

1) SoE coudl make a drastic change and give each priest equal healing but with different con's and pro's to each class. A way to do this i believe is simply threw spell range. The common situation is the healers at max range trying to avoid rampage damage or AE damge if they can, while the melee engage and either A rush the mob or B try to pin the mob in a cornor or other area. What if instead of needing 10 CHealers and 5-10 spot and rampage healers, you needed healers at different levels of the fight. For example purpose's i will call the melee range stage 1, the slower and CC stage 2 and the caster/nukers stage 3. So now instead of a cheal rot on MT_01 we have 3-4 stage one healers (clerics) with quick large heals and AE heals, stage 2(shamans) with quick small heals and AE small heals, stage 3 (druid) quick small heal, large really slow heal and AE small heal.
For this to be done correctly the range of the AE heals would need to be PBAE, and you would need to raise the clerics melee mitigation, by only increasing the clerics mitagation and not avodance raising their HP's or AC then you will not be steping on the toes of pally's. For they still wouldnt be able to tank due to thier low DPS, HP's and low avodance skill's. But this would allow them to be at the main front of the battle and still be effective. I see no need to change the current stat of shaman's at stage 2. Now on to stage 3, thier would need to be a form of agro reduction placed into these new heals for druids to prevent heal agro and pulling the mob to the casters from the melee range. Also due to the short range and versitility of all these spells it wouldnt change the current stat of the game much, but to counter the negative effect it would have on the casual cleric, their would need to be something added to the class to equalize the druids, and shaman's other skills they have over the current cleric. For if you make all the healers equal and 2 of them have other skills to add to a group enviroment then that makes the 3rd class usless. I have seen a coulpel of good ideas posted, i will let you all think of that change.

Idea #2, alot easier to implement and it would have far less impact on the game overall. Since one of the complaints is that a time geared druid should be able to heal as well as a bazaar cleric for raids, then a simple soulution may be to give the druids and clerics better heals. But the key is to make these spell's NODROP and have them drop from time level mob's. In this secenario the time leveled druid would have an advantage over the bazaar cleric but at the same time, he wouldnt have an advantage at all over a time leveled cleric. And before you start bitching about the fact that casual players wont have access to these spells read my first paragraph.


I apologize for the log winded post but i truly think that thier is alot to consider with this brainstorming topic. So i just figured i would throw a few ideas out and see if we can come to a agreement that is fair to both sides of this argument. I do not wish to argue with you all over this, i feel that we can reach a sutiable soulution threw debate and compare and contrast. Whinning and bitching isnt going to get us anywhere.


Jaffo
65 EXARCH ARCHON
Brell Serilis

Our friend seem to have convienently missed out a few other spells in the comparison.

Subject -------------- Cleric --------------- Druid ----------------
cheals -------------- X (50-70%)
spot heals ---------- X (31%)
group heals --------X (100%)
HoTs ------------X (100%)
rez ------------------X (100%)
Damage shields -------------------------------------- X (22% at least)
Nukes ---------------------------------------- X (30-35%)
Dots -------------------------------------------- X (20%)
Resists ----------------------------------------- X (32%)
Utility spells -------------------------------------- X
AC/HP buffs -------------------- tie
Other ---------------------------- tie

I have a question, maybe some can answer...

What % of the game needs to have a cleric (only) healer/chain?

Can we list all of the encounter(s)? This question can't really be answered. It's going to be different for each guild and depends on their class makeup and position in the game. Vindicator does not "need" a Cleric only chain for a Time Flagged Guild but a Guild just coming from Halls of Testing will need a Cleric only one. So it's impossible to really answer the question.

Originally posted by JAFFO
... As for the raid situation, ok you all wish to be more relevent and needed on all raids not just situational. Actually, I don't believe that this is true at all. I believe that the raiding druids KNOW that we are needed and useful on raids.

I believe that what has driven most of the discussion here was that some feel a need for a better overall game healing balance. But how do you do this without destroying the cleric class? And how do you do this without changing the flexibility of the druid class that so many have come to love? Logically relieving clerics of their love/hate hold over raiding with the highest stress job of the game would be done by improving the healing provided by others in priest classes. Unfortunately, clerics are currently locked into this prime healing spot because they have not, for all intents and purposes, been "blessed" with any other truly viable jobs for their class. Giving better healing to another class that could substitute for them in raids would be the death of the class and fundamentally change the one or ones that are left to fill that healing niche.

Personally, I believe that given things as they are in game now, druid healing is adequate for our role in EQ. Certainly, I don't want to WANT to be pushed into THE prime healer position because clerics burn out and leave the game or remake their main character.

Originally posted by Autumn10
Sorry but that's not true Arienne and any argument based on that assumption will also be wrong. :(

Autumn10 have you ever played a cleric or any class in a PoTime raiding guild ? I don't want this to come over as an uber vs casual thing but if you haven't then you have no right to comment on the stress levels involved.

Heh - As for Time Clerics having more stress then druids?

As a druid.. I am basically a cleric in time on most mobs, but yea I got some other jobs that suck worst then acting as a Cleric fill in. (w/o giving out tactics).


But just remember one thing.. before you "add" stress as a factor - Each guild is different.. each guild leader reacts different.. if its that much stress to push a button when your name is called.. or hit a heal when the group is getting low (hi, 3 people are almost dead let me.. um push .. ! this AA.. heh..

I am sorry but I just do not see this stress your talking about in PoT, /shrugs maybe I just look at the game differently.. but Stress? - I will say this though.. I do like the HIGH that I get from finally killing the Mob.

I changed my mind a bit after thinking about it and doing some computations and doing some chains with druids....

Anyways I still think that Druids are very good healers for groups and generally dont need too much help there.. Maybe a little on a slightly faster quick heal but not too much else... I'll probably get yelld at for saying that as a paladin or something but hey whatever

Main reason I think this is that if a druid had a reliable group heal and a good fast heal unless clerics really were given some good nukes or ability it really would break their usefullness in groups..

Yes res's are nice - but with graveyards its not as much of a concern overall...

Vie and BoR are nice also but really not group getters

I think that raids are genearlly ok for a while, if you properly setup heal rotation (Cleric Ddruid Cleric Druid), with druids using TR fits pretty well...

I think KR is generally bery poorly balanced in terms of mana usage at high end tho..

The 200 mana difference is - and isnt imo the big killer of the spell. its the mana/time ratio when Mana regen is factored in for CH chains...

Anyways assuming a 20% mana preseravation on heals (10% SCM 10% Alteration Spec) CH/TR work very well for chains because when you factor in all the mana regen

21 Chorus
25 Horse
18 VoQ
3? Standing
3 AA
15 FT
2 Lunar Whispers
Mod Rod
Paragon if possible

god hell I dont remember the exact numbers, but lets just assume 100 for simplicity sakes, feel free to correct my numbers

Anyways in a CH Rot if CH/TR cose 320 Mana (20% mana preseravation from SCM/Spec)

That means in 2 Ticks (Aprox time it takes to refesh a 10 second spell... using fuzzy math) you will have regained 200 mana..

That means CH/TR takes only ~120 Mana in a CHC rot situation... (50 Casts assuming a 6k Manapool [5750])

However KR is

480 Base (20% pres) - 200 = 280 (Aproximatly 21 chain casted assuming a 6k Manapool [5750]))

more then 2X as mana intensitve in raid sit uation, so you go oom a lot faster

So basically as many druids have said... KR really SUCKS for CHC, and TR preforms pretty damn well, well enuff that i can toss afew druids in a CHC on something like Reparm and really not notice a big difference.)

Of course this brings up the question of whether druids really WANT KR to be a good CHC style heal, some druids would HATE to have to be stuck in CHC a lot, and others want it to release "stranghold" or whatever clerics have on raids.

So dunno what exactly I think ahah..... as a raid leader I'd love to have druids beable to do CHC better.. but I think some druids in my gruild (hhah hi aderel) would rather not! Then again I still think that TR works VERY well in most CHC rotations...

Problem with the druid iCH's in chains, are possible DPS spikes.
Will you corrigate by speeding up the chain? Then you will still use more mana due to more casts!
The way I know I have done on a few occasions where druids were needed in a CH chain, was that 2 druids were stand-in for 1 cleric..
If both druids have maxed out their healing AAs they would heal 6960 for 600 mana with TR. This would roughly do it as a stand in for 1 cleric, taking into account DPS spikes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the gap between KR and CH just doesn't really matter on chains. It hardly ever is a factor.

When it is a factor, and you have no other options available, that's when the beauty of DI cast by a UD3 cleric comes into play.

Originally posted by Kahlia
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the gap between KR and CH just doesn't really matter on chains. It hardly ever is a factor.

When it is a factor, and you have no other options available, that's when the beauty of DI cast by a UD3 cleric comes into play.

Man, I totally disagree. The gap in amount healed 5652 Maxed AAs vs 7500 hardly ever is a factor true. Especially in a rotation of 1,2, or even 3 seconds.

Where the gap comes into HUGE play, is in the sustainability portion. 600 Mana vs 400 mana is unbelievable gap.
When the top FT15 MC3 Masked4 6k MP = Standing a Cleric
with Negative 2 FT, 4kMP. ((Negative 12 when comparing Horse users))

Out of 72 Slots, no other class would be wanted 12+. A guild would gladly take 12 Clerics to a Plane of Time Raid.

For the upteenth time: Druid's healing Needs:
1) KR reduced in Mana to 480 (20% more than Cleric) to 500 Max ((25%)). Hell, theres a lot more mathematical evidence that would support as far as reducing to 400 Mana compared to supporting leaving it as is at 600.

2) Some way for a druid to be a better group AE/Healer.
2a) A Group Heal: roughly equal to paladin level maybe little lower
2b) A Heal over Time: Weaker than CE/Quissence. IE: 3rd best
HOT.

Its impossible to really keep up with High End AEs with 6 NIs per
cast. You either run oom. Or You end up too high on Agro list
and die.

Neither of these changes will impair clerics.
Clerics will still....
a) Be Better CHers. More efficient in Grinding XP, and better
on raids in Chains
b) Be Better Group Healers
c) Have more Healing Tools ((Super Fast 1.5 Heal, Group AND Hots vs just 1))
d) Better Efficiency all the way around.

For the upteenth time: Druid's healing Needs:
1) KR reduced in Mana to 480 (20% more than Cleric) to 500 Max ((25%)). Hell, theres a lot more mathematical evidence that would support as far as reducing to 400 Mana compared to supporting leaving it as is at 600.

There's no mathematical evidence. This is a balance issue and revolves around many factors, many of which are opinions. Evidence doesn't come into it.

Druids healing "needs" these things if you start from the point of view that a druid should be able to act as not just the main healer but the sole healer in any exp group environment in the game. If you're of the view that druid+paladin should = cleric in the healing department, then both druid and paladin healing is actually overpowered. If you're of the view that a druid should be able to heal a group up to and including the elemental planes but not further, then druid healing is about right.

Clerics will still....
a) Be Better CHers. More efficient in Grinding XP, and better
on raids in Chains
b) Be Better Group Healers
c) Have more Healing Tools ((Super Fast 1.5 Heal, Group AND Hots vs just 1))
d) Better Efficiency all the way around

Druids will still be better snarers, and that doesn't matter either.

You see, while healing efficiency matters, it only matters up to a point. That point is when the group can chain-pull without downtime. Once you have this healing efficiency, you have enough healing; the fact that a cleric can produce theoretically more efficient heals is irrelevant because the group is still chain-pulling with no downtime whether they have a cleric or a druid.

In the vast majority of exp group environments where a druid is healer, the group can do precisely that. Therefore in many peoples' minds, druids are functionally equivalent exp group healers to clerics already.

The more efficient healer to have in an exp group is the one who produces more damage, i.e. (when not fighting undead) a druid. The only factor which might change that is if the group requires other class-specific abilities as well as healing, i.e. if they need a healer who can also pacify, or a healer who can also snare.

Don't feel bad, there's tanks (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17536) out there now that even clerics can't fully heal with the OLD unnerfed ch.

For all we know the Devs have a roadmap for the next two expansions and beyond. I would hate to think that new spells are generated at every expansion on-the-fly, so to speak.

To give credit where credit is due: The Devs have pledged to do whatever is required for the health of the game. Sometimes they seem a bit slow at it, but I'm starting to believe that they are unwavering in this point; even if people don't agree with the methods.

Wyte

Maybe in addition to tweaking KR and TR, they could allow it to work with mana preserve, improved healing focus effect and healing gift.

Edit for bad grammar.

It would be an alternate way of getting its efficiency fixed. I suspect, though, Clerics would start crying that those things should work with CH too (which, IMO, they should, along with all other FEs) and not understand that it was a fix to the cost of KR. So in the long run, I think it is better to just decrease the mana of KR.

One final bit of trivia for you. What is the most efficient healing spell in the game? Blessing of replenishment at 47.3 hp/mana. Cheal is not too far behind at 18.75 though ~
Actually, the ratio for BoR is only 47.3 under the condition that the persons being healed are all damaged for the entire duration of this spell. Every six second tick that occurs with the targets hp at max, the spells efficiency drops.

If mobs are hitting for just 300 hp per six seconds (very low compared to even tier 1 yard trash) that will still take 72 seconds to be healed. Groups don't even break that long to med for mana alot of the time. To regain 2925 HP, the same as a single ten second cast of tunares renewal, takes 11.7 minuets. The only reason I even bother to cast this spell is because it comes from my ornate tunic. If I had to spend MANA for the spell, I wouldn't even bother.

In case you missed that, BoR heals 70.2 times slower than tunares renewal for the same number of hp. It heals 180 times slower than CH does for the same number of hp. It may be efficient, but it's so dang slow as to be nearly useless.

Regen is very good for necro's and SK's who like to use lich lines, so in those situations, it is far from useless. However, you are absolutely correct its overall utility though, Batou.

As someone else said, if it wasn't because I had Blessing of Replenishment on a tunic in my inventory, I would never use it.
It's good for those reet crown camp session me and a rogue friend have been doing of late. Totally useless in PoP, except to counter lich line.

Originally posted by Shadowfrost
There's no mathematical evidence. This is a balance issue and revolves around many factors, many of which are opinions. Evidence doesn't come into it.


Actually, to me evidence = looking at the hard math numbers.

KR: 4750(5652 AAed)) for 400 Mana efficiency: 11.875(14.13)
KR: 4750(5652 AAed)) for 480 Mana efficiency: 9.896(11.775)
KR: 4750(5652 AAed)) for 500 Mana efficiency: 9.5 (11.304)
KR: 4750(5652 AAed)) for 600 Mana efficiency: 7.916(9.42)

CH: 7500/400 = 18.75

Now: Difference in the 3.8 Second heals Cleric-Druid
Cleric 2750/600 4.583
Druid 1750/500 3.5
Cleric Efficiency Percentage Edge: 30.9%

Efficiency Edge KR vs CH
KR400 - 57.8% edge to CH AAKR400 32.6% edge to CH
KR480 - 89.4% edge to CH AAKR480 59.2% edge to CH
KR500 - 97.4% edge to CH AAKR500 65.9% edge to CH
KR600 - 136% edge to CH AAKR600 99.0% edge to CH

Now, my claim was very simple there is more mathmatical evidence in KR400 where the edge with AA dips to 32.6%
difference in ICH/CHing then there isfor KR600 where the edge is an absurd 136%.

I base this claim on evidence in every facet of the game, where the #1 specialist best class, is NOT 136% better than the 2#2 class. If you can point to single piece of contradictory evidence, please do so. Every single comparison, Dots, Nukes, Spot Heals, HPS, Melee DPS, Slow, Haste, Pets, you will not find a 136%
difference.

KR400 however, there is plenty of evidence for roughly 30% differences. Even evidence between Clerics-Druids when comparing their spot heals.

However, a lot of the time people don't maximize the use of KR/CH. Hence, why I could accept keeping druids at 480-500 mana because then its still 20-25% harder for a druid to maintain mana wise. ((Rather than the ungodly unstainable current 50% more mana))

I would also say though, that in XP groups its becoming easier and easier to maximize efficency. Skill should play a roll correct?
If so, whats the skill point? Say landing a CH/ICH at 30%?
For a CH to max out 7500 healed = 70% of a tank with 10,714
which is Now very possible in the game. This leads back to the point that since tanks in this range are in time gear, I could easily see Ancient Time spells. Ancient KR: 4750/400. Because time clerics will still maintain thier acceptible edge (33%) in healing
time tanks.

Ultimately my fix list would look like
#1 --- Fix KR to 480 to 500 Mana
#2 --- Give druids a way to heal groups. Either HOT, Group HOT, or Group Direct Heal. ((One of the best things I saw was make Wood a Castable Spell as well. Not sure on what the mana cost would be))
#3 --- perhaps some way in time for druid to close the gap in comparison to healing 10k+ Xp tanks. Ancient time spells, Ancient mana preservation focus items that worked on CH/ICH.

Actually, to me evidence = looking at the hard math numbers.

What you've provided is certainly math, and I wouldn't fault your calculations. I'll even add to them.

CH: 8925 (AAed) for 400 Mana efficiency: 22.31

But, any cleric casting an 8925 CH also has Spellcasting Mastery 3 and Specialise: Alteration (200). That means that the CH is really 8925hp for 316mana, efficiency: 28.24. Furthermore, that cleric's heal has a ~15% chance to crit, doubling its effectiveness, so really the average amount healed is 10,263 for 316 mana. Efficiency of that is 32.48 hp/mana.

But, even THAT's pretty inefficient by cleric heal standards, because we have Word of Redemption too. Word of Redemption with AHA3, SCM3, and no focus effects is 74,970hp healed for 869 mana, efficiency: a staggering 86.27 hp per point of mana spent. Factor in the likely effect of HG3 - i.e. the probability that at least one of those heals will crit for 24,990 - and you have an efficiency of 100.65.

There's the real math for you, folks. Clerics are out there potentially healing 100.65p per point of mana. But it's even worse than that, because clerics have Divine Arbitration too! Divine Arbitration heals tens of thousands of hp per hour spent adventuring for FREE! Not to mention Celestial Regeneration which lets the cleric not only move hp to where it's needed but then replace those hp at no mana cost.

However, that's math, and math != evidence. Anyone who has the IQ to follow this thread this far and still be reading, will appreciate the very basic, fundamental logical flaws involved in comparing clerics and druids based on the maximum potential efficiency of each class at healing; heals landing for maximum isn't a common feature of the game.

I base this claim on evidence in every facet of the game, where the #1 specialist best class, is NOT 136% better than the 2#2 class. If you can point to single piece of contradictory evidence, please do so. Every single comparison, Dots, Nukes, Spot Heals, HPS, Melee DPS, Slow, Haste, Pets, you will not find a 136% difference.

Here is where your whole argument falls to pieces, so let's read it carefully. We'll start with the word "better".

You've chosen to define "better" based on the mana efficiency of the maximum potential amount healed in each class of healing. I can understand that you choose this definition of "better" since it suits your point of view. However, let's examine the real reasons why one heal might be "better" than another.

1. Efficiency. This heal saves me more mana than that heal.
2. Speed. Heal "a" will land in time to save a life, but heal "b" will not, so I will cast heal "a" despite the fact that "b" is more efficient.
3. Range. My target is too far away for an efficient heal and I cannot move to him (because of an AE, perhaps). Therefore I will use a less efficient heal at range.
4. Aggro. Heal "a" is more efficient, but I will use heal "b" in order to avoid getting pounded into the floor.

Of those four categories, the "winners" are:-

1. Efficiency: (1) Cleric, Word of Redemption. (2) Druid, Blessing of Replenishment. (3) Cleric, CH.
2. Speed: (1) Paladin, Light of Nife, 1 sec. (2) Cleric, Supernal Remedy, 1.75sec. (3) Druid, Nature's Infusion, 3.75 sec.
3. Range: (1) Druid, 1750hp for 500 mana, range 200. (2) Cleric, 1450hp for 400 mana, range 200. (3) Paladin, 1125hp for 450mana, range 200.
4. Aggro: Hard to categorize owing to lack of numbers. Based on guesstimates, I'd run with (1) Shaman: Quiescence. (2) Paladin: Supernal Cleansing. (3) Cleric: Supernal Elixir.

I could easily take these criteria and use them to demonstrate, "mathematically," that a paladin is 157% better at healing than a cleric. (This is the answer to your 136% question above.) All I have to do is to assume that the dragon's suddenly crapped on the windmill and your healing needs are fast spot heals and group heals, and bob's your uncle, pally is better. I will demonstrate this mathematically if you wish.

Equally, I could also demonstrate that factoring in the benefits of Tugur's Insects, a shaman is a significantly better healer than a cleric. In fact, if you're really interested, I can direct you to a "proof" (written by Thott, no less) of this fact. With graphs! And if you allow Thott's math and assumptions to stand unchallenged, I assure you that the degree to which a shaman outperforms a cleric is significantly more than 136%.

Summary of the above paragraphs: You don't have "evidence". What you have is an opinion which, Thott-like, you have chosen to support by choosing a set of assumptions and working the math from those assumptions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against the idea of Healing Gift working with Karana's Renewal, and I'm not against a 15 minute reuse timer on SotW.

I do feel that other changes to the druidic healing output need to be linked to an expansion of the clerical role, though.

Originally posted by Shadowfrost
What you've provided is certainly math, and I wouldn't fault your calculations. I'll even add to them.

CH: 8925 (AAed) for 400 Mana efficiency: 22.31

But, any cleric casting an 8925 CH also has Spellcasting Mastery 3 and Specialise: Alteration (200). That means that the CH is really 8925hp for 316mana, efficiency: 28.24. Furthermore, that cleric's heal has a ~15% chance to crit, doubling its effectiveness, so really the average amount healed is 10,263 for 316 mana. Efficiency of that is 32.48 hp/mana.

But, even THAT's pretty inefficient by cleric heal standards, because we have Word of Redemption too. Word of Redemption with AHA3, SCM3, and no focus effects is 74,970hp healed for 869 mana, efficiency: a staggering 86.27 hp per point of mana spent. Factor in the likely effect of HG3 - i.e. the probability that at least one of those heals will crit for 24,990 - and you have an efficiency of 100.65.

There's the real math for you, folks. Clerics are out there potentially healing 100.65p per point of mana. But it's even worse than that, because clerics have Divine Arbitration too! Divine Arbitration heals tens of thousands of hp per hour spent adventuring for FREE! Not to mention Celestial Regeneration which lets the cleric not only move hp to where it's needed but then replace those hp at no mana cost.

However, that's math, and math != evidence. Anyone who has the IQ to follow this thread this far and still be reading, will appreciate the very basic, fundamental logical flaws involved in comparing clerics and druids based on the maximum potential efficiency of each class at healing; heals landing for maximum isn't a common feature of the game.



Here is where your whole argument falls to pieces, so let's read it carefully. We'll start with the word "better".

You've chosen to define "better" based on the mana efficiency of the maximum potential amount healed in each class of healing. I can understand that you choose this definition of "better" since it suits your point of view. However, let's examine the real reasons why one heal might be "better" than another.

1. Efficiency. This heal saves me more mana than that heal.
2. Speed. Heal "a" will land in time to save a life, but heal "b" will not, so I will cast heal "a" despite the fact that "b" is more efficient.
3. Range. My target is too far away for an efficient heal and I cannot move to him (because of an AE, perhaps). Therefore I will use a less efficient heal at range.
4. Aggro. Heal "a" is more efficient, but I will use heal "b" in order to avoid getting pounded into the floor.

Of those four categories, the "winners" are:-

1. Efficiency: (1) Cleric, Word of Redemption. (2) Druid, Blessing of Replenishment. (3) Cleric, CH.
2. Speed: (1) Paladin, Light of Nife, 1 sec. (2) Cleric, Supernal Remedy, 1.75sec. (3) Druid, Nature's Infusion, 3.75 sec.
3. Range: (1) Druid, 1750hp for 500 mana, range 200. (2) Cleric, 1450hp for 400 mana, range 200. (3) Paladin, 1125hp for 450mana, range 200.
4. Aggro: Hard to categorize owing to lack of numbers. Based on guesstimates, I'd run with (1) Shaman: Quiescence. (2) Paladin: Supernal Cleansing. (3) Cleric: Supernal Elixir.

I could easily take these criteria and use them to demonstrate, "mathematically," that a paladin is 157% better at healing than a cleric. (This is the answer to your 136% question above.) All I have to do is to assume that the dragon's suddenly crapped on the windmill and your healing needs are fast spot heals and group heals, and bob's your uncle, pally is better. I will demonstrate this mathematically if you wish.

Equally, I could also demonstrate that factoring in the benefits of Tugur's Insects, a shaman is a significantly better healer than a cleric. In fact, if you're really interested, I can direct you to a "proof" (written by Thott, no less) of this fact. With graphs! And if you allow Thott's math and assumptions to stand unchallenged, I assure you that the degree to which a shaman outperforms a cleric is significantly more than 136%.

Summary of the above paragraphs: You don't have "proof". What you have is an opinion which, Thott-like, you have chosen to support by choosing a set of assumptions and working the math from those assumptions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against the idea of Healing Gift working with Karana's Renewal, and I'm not against a 15 minute reuse timer on SotW.

I do feel that other changes to the druidic healing output need to be linked to an expansion of the clerical role, though.

Interestingly enough, I'd say your talking apples and oranges.

You broke heals down into 4 seperate categorys. And used mixed-matched Arguements.

For example: you compared Light of Night to Supernal Remedy Only on speed. And tried to compare the 2 spells on just speed. Thats almost impossible to do because your isolating one factor of spells with multiple different factors. SR is many many times more efficient than LoN. You can never clearly state that LoN is a better heal. The simplier answer to this is.... Would the classes trade spells. Would Clerics take LON and give up SR? Would
Paladins give up LON and take SR.

The same in group efficiency. The Healing Per Second on word of redemption more than crushes blessing of replenshment. As a druid, I'll trade ya gladly.

The difference in comparing CH to ICH is that all other factors of the spell are the same. Casting Time. Focus Restrictions. Duration. Thus its much better comparison than the ones you used.

Same applies to slows, same applies to tanks mitigation, same applies to dps.

Find 2 comparable spells. Find 2 comparable facets of the game like mitigation, or melee dps. Find me any 2 comparable spots
where the efficiency edge from #1 to #2 is as large as CH to KR.

Use the "common sense" litmus test. If you can't make a reasonable arguement in comparison of how they are comparable
then its not an approiate arguement. So they don't need to be 100% identical either. They need to be reasonably comparable.

Most comparisons in this game focus on such things as
Sustainable DPS
Burst DPS
DPM (damage per mana)
HPS (healing per second)
HPM (healing per mana)
Mitigation

Originally posted by Shadowfrost

I do feel that other changes to the druidic healing output need to be linked to an expansion of the clerical role, though.

Why? Clerics have gained quite a bit since the inception of ICHs.
Druids have likewise had dilution of thier skills.

Cleric Gains:
2 New Valuable Spell Lines. Spell Haste, Vie
Increased % of zones people XP in with large quanties of undead
Stackable Mana Line ((Yalups)) that work indoors and stack
with all other mana gainers.
Lull Fixed. Making them one a good pulling class, and especially useful for skipping content.
HP Inflation. Further benefits the efficiency of CHs. Increasing the larger heals.

Druid Losses:
HP inflation: deflated the value of CHs due to thier caps
Port devaluation ((POK Books + Wayfarers))
Lull Changes: Went from 2 way tie to best outdoor puller, to a 4 way tie for 2nd best outdoor puller.
DS Scale inversly with expansions
Last expansion with entirely indoor content.

That aside. I find yet to hear a good rationale for why a guild would want 12 (or more) clerics out of 72 on a raid.

The reason is because there is no other class suited, to fullfil the role of a cleric on a raid. KR is too inefficient to keep up.

I also have yet to have a cleric crunch the numbers and explain why in sustaining a CH/ICH rotation. a 15 FT/MC3 Druid with Plane of Time Gear and 6k MP should be worth a FT Neg 2 Cleric with bazaar level gear of 4k MP.

Same thing is very true, in XP groups. Where I have seen groups XP go far up, adding an VASTLY INFERIOR cleric, to a much better equipped druid. I can see it happening with equal, or even near equal level clerics, but as it stands its ridiculous.

Now the crux of where we disagree:

You: Clerics need HUGE Healing Lock, because of thier lack of other skill sets

Me: Clerics have more utility than you give them credit for. Clerics need a Modest Healing Lock. ((20-50% efficiency. More tools than anyone))