View Full Forums : Who would give up the DS/AC of SotW for faster reuse?


Scirocco
01-17-2004, 11:05 AM
This came up in the thread below about the SotW reuse time. SOE's reason for not reducing the reuse time of SotW to 15 min when the cleric version was set at that time (to match Paragon) was that SotW had AC and DS as well as healing. So the question doesn't get lost in the other thread, answer the question here simply one way or the other.

Would you give up the DS and AC of SotW in order to have the reuse time reduced to 15 minutes?

I'm in the "hell yeah!" group...:)

SudaWilde
01-17-2004, 11:16 AM
Hell Yeah!!!!!

Seriously, AC/DC compared to 500+ mana? Come on......

Aaeamdar
01-17-2004, 11:21 AM
I am firmly also in the "Hell Yeah" group, but am still baffled by the stupidity of it all. I mean, those idiots that run the game actually think the DS/AC is better than a **** load more healing (Cleric) or buckets full of mana (BL). How stupid are these people?

The Cleric one heals more than twice ours (3600 vs. 1750), for those not aware.

DemonMage
01-17-2004, 11:45 AM
Also in the "Hell yeah" group.

Marklar Thistleblade
01-17-2004, 12:01 PM
Um yah, id be willing to give it up for that ...i mean what druid wouldnt

/boggle

Faedia
01-17-2004, 12:28 PM
Hell yeah.

(posted my reasoning in other thread)

princess0fdiabl0
01-17-2004, 12:33 PM
id give up ac.... ds... i kinda like it, tho for a reduction to 15 mins i would give it up

Toprem
01-17-2004, 12:34 PM
Helll yes, I would give them up in a Goddamn instant.

Netura
01-17-2004, 12:53 PM
Hell yes. The ac portion does nothing for me. DS is alright, however, not that useful besides duels...

Bartleby
01-17-2004, 12:54 PM
i would be all over that like white on rice!

so put me down as a hell yes!

Kitsune Sama
01-17-2004, 12:57 PM
Hell yeah! The AC is worthless, and the DS doesnt add that much damage anway.

Firemynd
01-17-2004, 02:11 PM
If the AC and DS components of SotW were beneficial in a consistently quantitative and meaningful way, I'd want to keep them. But that just isn't the case 99% of the time, and we have enough abilities that are only situationally useful.

Drop the AC and DS. Compensate by lowering the refresh time *and* either raise the healing amount/tic, or extend the duration.

~Firemynd

Wyte
01-17-2004, 02:29 PM
Boooyah Grandma! I'd give up AC/DS for a 15 min timer any day.

A side note...
SOE's reason for not reducing the reuse time of SotW to 15 min when the cleric version was set at that time (to match Paragon) was that SotW had AC and DS as well as healing.Please note, this was second hand information on what the (or perhaps a single) dev(s) said at a Fanfaire. It may not be the only reason, but its the only and most complete information we have to go on at the moment. Subtle difference maybe, but wouldn't wanna put words in SOE's mouth.

Wyte

Swiftfox
01-17-2004, 02:37 PM
YES

TauTropfen
01-17-2004, 03:27 PM
OMIGOD LIEK HELL YES! :)

Tilien Venator
01-17-2004, 03:30 PM
No, we deserve the recast lowered by a AAP option without having to give up anything.

Aidon
01-17-2004, 04:19 PM
Don't let them get away with just giving SotW a 15 min cast time. If that is their reason, insist on more healing for the buck also :)

Tiane
01-17-2004, 05:04 PM
/agree with all of the above.

Seriena
01-17-2004, 06:12 PM
I personally like the ds.

Delowen
01-17-2004, 07:48 PM
Lose the DS and AC, there is still NO reason at all that SotW is 22 mins and Paragon is 15mins. Paragon gives MANA aswell as HP, and it is still faster reuse time than SotW, there is NO logic at all that SotW would be longer compared to Paragon.

Nilwean
01-17-2004, 08:49 PM
hell no!

Fayne Dethe
01-17-2004, 08:54 PM
There is ZERO reason why you would have to give up AC/DS to lower re-use of SoTW to 15 minute. Getting extra mana from Paragon is FAR MORE overpowering than a minor DS/ac increase. Also, the extra healing from the cleric version is FAR more useful than AC/DS ;p.

Sunwukong Stormrider
01-17-2004, 09:12 PM
Hell no. That is AC/DS is the stupidest reason to keep the refresh at 22 min vs 15 min. WTF were the devs smoking? Its like saying druids can NEVER have anything better or at least as good as another class!

vestix
01-17-2004, 09:32 PM
Just give me paragon instead, 'cause I want mana, mana, and more mana...

Vestix

BGrifter
01-17-2004, 11:20 PM
I really can't remeber the last time the AC/DS component was significant on SotW, it's rarely a large enough heal to make much of a difference on the MT and most of the time none of the others are taking a beating. Perhaps if they were to drive the AC/DS thru the roof (think Wrath of the Wild numbers) to justify the longer refresh I could understand it, but as is it's primarily a group heal for AEing mobs.

In short, hell yeah.

pherrot69
01-18-2004, 01:46 AM
how about hell yes! Its bad enough shamans get canni 5 every what? 7 min or so? Clerics get their heal in 15, so do BST's and with AA's SK DT can be taken down to 36 min, yet SoTW remains at 22. :moon:

DemonMage
01-18-2004, 01:48 AM
Canni 5 is 3 minute re-use, but what the hell does that have to do with lowering re-use timer on Spirit of the Wood?!

Gneaus
01-18-2004, 02:09 AM
In all the discussions I've had about SotW, it has always focused around the healing component. It's the druids contribution against AE'ing mobs. The AC/DS is just stupid side components they threw in to tie in with the 'flavor' of previous existing spells. If that were the reason for the higher recast time, I would *LOVE* to have that explained to me. The devs honestly thought that lower healing amount, but coupled with the AC/DS it was more powerful than the cleric version so therefor deserved a longer reuse timer? /boggle Were SotW available in the lower levels, 30-50 ish, it has an impact and could be worthwhile. At 65, in ele+, it's so minor that it is even ignored by those who cast it. (OMG, I better up the AC of the entire raid for this mob! -- yeah, right)

Tudamorf
01-18-2004, 02:49 AM
NO!

Zorx
01-18-2004, 03:01 AM
No way. SoTW should be reduced to 15 minutes without changing anything.

And an additional AA to reduce cast time would be a slap in the druids face, why should we spend more AAs for something that clerics didn't even have in the first place, and clerics didn't have to buy additional AAs to make it a group version or reduce its cast time.

Keep in mind SoE took our unique priest ability and gave it to clerics. What we need today is a unique priest AA ability again.

--Zorx

oddjob1244
01-18-2004, 09:29 AM
Just reduce SoTW to 15 minutes and change nothing else.

Sildan
01-18-2004, 10:45 AM
Hell yeah!!

Scirocco
01-18-2004, 12:14 PM
And if the only way SotW would get reduced to 15 min is if the DS/AC component gets removed, would those saying "no" still be willing to cut off their nose to spite their face? Shouting that it ought to be reduced to 15 minutes, period, obviously hasn't gotten us anywhere.

I would like the reuse time to be reduced to 15 min. without any other changes, too, but that's not the question. If you are responding "no," what you are saying is that you would rather SotW stay at 22 minutes with the DS and AC components.

corlathist
01-18-2004, 12:19 PM
Yeah I would keep the DS/AC even if it meant no reduction. HOWEVER, we should be able to remove only 1 of those to get a reduction honestly. Paragon has a dual nature of Healing + Mana. and is only 15 min.

So it might not be the dual nature, as much as the TRI-Nature of wood that causes the longer time limit. If so remove the AC and give us 15 minutes Id support easily.

Like the DS is any more powerful than 480 mana. or the large amount of extra healing
the cleric one does.

Anyway, I think we should petition make SOTW have only 2 powers & 15 Minute timer.
Not 1 power and 15 minutes which is then weaker than the other 2 15 minute powers

Wyte
01-18-2004, 12:24 PM
Excellent point corlathist.

Aaeamdar
01-18-2004, 12:36 PM
We sould petition to leave it like it is and have either 1. a longer duration AND 15 min recast or 2. a shorter recast than 15 mins, if we are interested in balance. Even if you took SotW as is and put it at 15 mins recast, it would still be, by far, the weakest of the three. Unfortanately, the SOE designers are idiots, so I would not hold your breath.

oddjob1244
01-18-2004, 01:39 PM
Short answer, no I would not give up AC/DS for 15 minute timer.

The DS is kind of nice for one man PBAEin, or duels. AC is a joke to me, that seems to be a better way to go if we NEED to compromise something. I just dont understand why a damage shield and ac that affects 1 tank, maybe 4-5 add tanks in a situational encounter, is so much more important then mana that affects 12 of 15 classes, or roughly 70% of a raid.

Fayne Dethe
01-18-2004, 04:27 PM
Go ahead and remove the DS/AC component, but in return let it give mana like Paragon or more healing like the cleric version ;p. Removing the AC/DS and not improving the healing or giving it mana would be a total slap in the face.

BGrifter
01-18-2004, 05:26 PM
Slap to the face? I'd treat it as a positive change like removing snare from the epic DOT. Yeah it'd be nice to keep them or replace the effects with something more useful, but i'll happily settle for a lower refresh time. Sadly, either way it's still not adequate for a full time use group heal.

Tappin
01-18-2004, 07:26 PM
Yes

Tudamorf
01-18-2004, 07:37 PM
And if the only way SotW would get reduced to 15 min is if the DS/AC component gets removed, would those saying "no" still be willing to cut off their nose to spite their face?Uh, you're assuming all of us would find a 15 minute reuse useful. I sure wouldn't, since I save it for emergencies anyway.

Aaeamdar
01-18-2004, 09:01 PM
Emergency DS and AC usage?

If not, even using it in emergencies - 15 min reset makes more sense than AC/DS, since you get you emergency AA back sooner.

beasthealer
01-19-2004, 12:18 AM
/sarcasam on
What DS/AC component?

now to be serius
I remember many time on raid people tell me can you MGB AC buff we need it very much, or when we fight 2 mobs and the tank ask give me ur DS now please.
can't figure why you all want to lose such an amazing part of Sotw just to be able to recast it faster.

/sarcasam off

If by chance no one got it i do not care if they take or leave the DS/AC i dont think on them when i cast it and i do not expect to be thinking in the future (unless they up the DS for something like 500 or so) i do on the other hand care very much that my AE heal is worse then the beastlord AE heal (longer recast slightly more heal but BL do mana regen too) i do care that cleric AE heal is WAY WAY WAY better and have faster recast.

It's silly it's not balanced and it need to be fixed.


P.S. to Tudamorf i also use Sotw for emergency but what happen when there are only 17 mins between them?

Kellory
01-19-2004, 02:22 AM
No.

I'm tired of compromises and all that crap.

What other class has *ever* had to give up functionality of their abilities in order to get something done to them that should have been done in the first place? If no one else has ever had to, then why should we?

Sure its virtually useless, but thats not the point. Its the principle of the thing.

If we get that, then you know what'll happen at SoE headquarters.

Absorclone: Great, we need to work on new AA's for the next expansion.
Devdude: Well, we've got the preliminaries up for most classes on Lucy already.
Absorclone: Wonderful, what about the druids?
Devdude: We have some ideas on that. Why not give them Tunare's Evolution?
Absorclone: Whats that?
Devdude: Its this AA we've been working on. It will give druids the ability to turn their entire group into wolves with +250ATK and SoE speed anywhere.
Absorclone: That sounds a bit overpowered. The enchanters will want it too.
Devdude: Ahh, but we've got that covered too. We make the reuse on it 24 RL hours.
Absorclone: I dunno, we've tried that before and people have revolted.
Devdude: Of course they will. But there's the beauty. After 6 months we'll have a chat with them, then after they argue things for another month we'll "offer" to reduce the reuse to 1 hour in exchange for making removing the SoE speed, and making it outdoor only, and not useable in the last 2 expansions.
Absorclone: I love it! It'll be fairly useless for months, and by the time they get something that sort of works, we'll almost be into the next expansion.
Devclone: Thanks Absorclone.

Okay, that seems a bit extreme. But you know that's what they'll be thinking.

Its like any business. You take what you can get away with. If they know they can get away with doing stuff like that, then why shouldnt they? And please, dont tell me its because they respect us here. They may respect us as players per se, but they've as much admited they feel the druid class itself was a mistake and overpowered at more than one FanFaire.

I think the best reason why its time to stop compromising came from my sister who just got EQ for Christmas.

After looking through the different classes and seeing what they have and talking with people, she choose a ranger. When I asked why she didnt choose a druid, she responded she wanted to have a useful class.

I dont claim that she was right. And I feel in most situations with my guild I'm useful. But thats a pretty sad comment on the class when someone on the outside, looking in, actually believes that.

Kaidian Blade
01-20-2004, 09:48 AM
No. No compromise. No more nerfing of our abilities. :curse:

Keep the AA as it is and reduce the recast to 15 mins. PERIOD. I don't want another AA to reduce it. I don't want to lose the situational use for the DS aspect.

The Devs need to understand our desire to have this fixed and we need to be adamant about GETTING IT FIXED.

We're not going to be stepping on anyone's toes if the timer is reduced to 15 mins. This is an ability that benefits EVERY class in a group/raid situation. Are the other priest classes going to shout bloody murder if the timer is reduced? No, I think not. SotW benefits everyone. EVERYONE.

All we're asking for is a reduction in recast time and therefore the number of potential times we can cast SotW in an adventure/group/raid.

Hell, if I had my way, I'd want the healing increased as well....

Racmoor
01-20-2004, 09:58 AM
Well, the question was one of the two options, which one do you want. I'll answer the question.

I would LOVE to have the AC, DS removed to get a 15minute recast time. I have NEVER used SoTW because of the AC/DS, but I have NOT used it because of the ac/ds. Couple of examples.

1) Having to kite mobs for the raid (warrior trial is a good example), I took a couple of hits. I could NOT use the DS because I just was not sure I wanted to damage mobs that might summon.

2) PLing. (yea, should never be considered, but I PL by pulling the mobs and having them beat on me while the other guy tags. He may get agro, I can't /tgb and instant heal him because it would kill the mobs on me too fast for him to tag)

I can't remember a time when I said, "let me use sotw to get that extra DS damage...that could make a big difference"

Please take the ac/ds and give me the 15 minute recast time.

Thanks!

Racmoor

Mannwin Woobie
01-20-2004, 10:18 AM
No. No compromise. No more nerfing of our abilities.

/AGREE totally.

To answer the "topic" of the post, I would NOT give up the DS/AC. Leave it the way it is, and simply FIX the recast timer to be 15 minutes, like it SHOULD be.

Xitix
01-20-2004, 10:43 AM
While we are at it lets balance snare and root. Snares should be random duration just like root and when a mob isn't moving at all it should attack the closest person.

Add : long paragraph about how classes without root are screwed out of the best exp in the game, how it's really a bug that things are this way, how it shows the developers hate class X,Y,Z and favor class A,B,C in everything, how the sun allways setting in the west isn't balanced and shows poor universe design .... and on and on and on

Accretion
01-20-2004, 11:14 AM
Please reduce re-cast time, k thx.

Fenlayen
01-20-2004, 11:20 AM
Just lower the recast time. There is no good reason why it's at 22mins. :buttrock:

Kulothar
01-20-2004, 11:37 AM
The AA is a good one and I use it in near wipe conditions. If it is an option you are asking... NO, keep it as it is. In a near wipe the AC/DS may be more helpful than being able to recast it sooner.

If you want to know if the reuse time is too long, then yes it is. It is just another way to limit the usefulness of druid AA's. Don't go revising AA that could nerf then. Instead suggest that they give new AA's in the expansion that are actually useful.

Murias
01-20-2004, 12:04 PM
Yes indeedy.

Eridalafar
01-20-2004, 01:53 PM
No, at worst give us the 15 mins recasting via more aaxp. But I don't want to lose the AC/DS buff portion of SotW.

Eridalafar

Chenier
01-20-2004, 02:12 PM
I'm in the "hell yes you should take your heads out of your butts make it the same refresh time as paragon and the cleric one cuz we don't need another nerf" camp.

Hard to fit on the camp patch tho...hmmm.

Galadhriel
01-20-2004, 02:29 PM
I'm with Chenier and the others: Leave it as is and make the refresh time the same as paragon and the cleric one.
Also, I would like to see something official from SoE about why SoTW cannot have the same refresh time. I was at that EQ FanFaire and Scott and the devs *did not* give a reason as to why the times were different. (Yes, I was a geeky druid and took notes because I was so excited about being at my first Fan Faire.)

Seriena
01-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Trying to barter for changes to our class is a mistake imo. We should be asking for an explanation for why it is 22 mins rather than 15. Then we should be asking them to pull their heads out and balance the aa with the other classes that have the similar aa.

Trying to make trade offs is just asking for trouble in the future.

Terlis
01-20-2004, 02:57 PM
There is no reason why SotW should be 22 mins. Like a lot of other people have said, Paragon and Celestial Renewal are a lot better then SotW and they have a 15 min recast. Why should our's be 22 just because of a DS/AC?

Kulothar
01-21-2004, 12:03 PM
I agree the refresh is too long. What I was hinting at in my previous post but didn't really state clearly is that I like the DS/AC component since when I use it the power of the AA is more important than the refresh time. That is: in a near wipe you need those two things and hopefully you don't have near wipes very often. They should reduce the refresh time though.

The other solution I hinted at was. GIVE US A GOOD SoTW TYPE REGEN WITH A SHORTER REFRESH IN THE EXPANSION INSTEAD OF FAST TELEPORT YOU DRUID HATING NERD PROGRAMERS!!!!! um.. sorry.. got excited for a bit.

That would make both camps happy and give you two regens (class defining skill) to work with. Heck if someone could bribe them maybe even add a cure dot component that takes off one poison/disease/curse counter per tick instead of the DS/AC. but Nahh.. logic is too much to ask for.

Loralin
01-22-2004, 08:29 AM
I'm in the "Hell yeah." camp but I don't use SoTW for the DS component.

I 2 box both my druid and my cleric full time at raids and have noticed the differences between celes regen and SoTW for a long time.

On raids I use SoTW not only as my "oh ****" heal but also have planned situational uses for it for things like the time trials where they are scripted events and the reuse timer is part of that equation.

Muskratt
01-30-2004, 10:00 AM
Heh, I'm split here.

While I'd like the faster reuse, but I really do enjoy just sitting down with sotw+brackencoat+9th ring+shield of bracken and watching random_rogue01 thinking he's going to pwn the dr00d in the arena.

Just when you're having fun, here comes the strategist or the queen of thieves with their 20/19s and 26/24s and I see a loading, please wait! :moon:

I'd definately go a 3/6/9 (perhaps more) AA to reduce SOTW's cast in a heartbeat!