Is it just me, or is there really a disparity?

A level 65 ebayed Wizard will have the exact same chance to land a spell as A 300+ days played Wizard. Why is that? All casters are on a level playing field in this repect, no uber versus newbie.

To get past mob resists all you need to do is debuff. It isn't a 'per player' system on the power curve. Seems to me this is a defensive system (regarding mobs), whereas melee is both offensive and defensive.

Why not have a stat (or multiple stats) forming the offensive power of casters?

Melee rely on Attack, Strength, Dexterity etc. Maybe casters should be based on a few new stats, like "Power" and "Mind", or who knows what.

Then again, maybe it would be more of a PITA then its worth. I'm just exploring the possibility for the sake of a thought excercise. :)

Wyte

Well, there is the issue that the wizard would need spells just as the melee class needs equipment (and hybrids need both).

There's also the issue of looking the character over time instead of on the basis of landing a single spell. You can't look at melee performance on the basis of landing a single hit, for example.

The relationship between most stats and melee performance is pretty tiny and, even with bazaar gear, they cap with buffs anyway. The main things that a melee class would want in gear are:

Hitpoints
AC
Haste
ATK

with the relative importance depending on the class. Stats like strength and dexterity are of a lesser concern due to their impact on performance and the relatively low hard cap.

It's long been a topic of debate that casters really have only to worry about one stat, but I think that was left behind. There are plenty of threads here, for example, discussing whether a caster shoudl worry more about hitpoints or mana pool. Certainly casters don't have to worry about some stats that are at least somewhat meaningful to melee classes, but the overal impact is pretty small (e.g., I care about my dexterity for slay undead and weapon procs, but the impact is so small that I don't really focus on it to any obvious extent).

Prior to the existence of focus effects, I'd say that many people argued that a naked wizard was pretty much the same as a well-geared wizard (substitute whatever other class you want). With improved damage, extended range, mana preservation, spell haste, flowing thought, etc. available, I don't think that is an argument that can be made anymore. The difference between my druid now and where he was just 6 months ago is quite large (and he's by no means uber).

In any case, I'm not sure I understand your premise about the disparity. It is not the case that a newly 65 wizard or a naked 65 wizard is the same as one with 300+ days played - perhaps you could explain the disparity you see in more detail?

A Ebay wizard might be able to hit for the same as a season'ed wizard, However the Ebay wizard will die very fast. I would bet my life the Ebay wizard would draw aggro and die within afew casts. While the season'ed wizard, would live on, and not obtain aggro so easy, thus adding to more DPS. This premise would go for all casting classes.

As far as stats go, these days stats are a joke really. These days for casters it's plus mana items and plus HP items that make them. Almost everyone, Uber and non uber can get to stat cap with ease. The only differance is the uber can do it unbuffed, and the nonuber need buffs. Stats are not what seperate player's anymore, it's FT, HP,Mana and AA.

My point? Oh yeah... my point is that the only check against a spell being cast (that is, with regards to the one casting it) is the level of the character. One level 65 is exactly equal to another level 65 in that regard.

Well, this is not entirely true. Charisma has some effect with some spells like Harmony (if resisted - although that's kind of after-the-fact), and charm (and maybe mez?)

You're right Romidar, with AA's, focus effects, FT gear, etc. the spell system has a wide range of potential effectiveness.

It just seems like the melee system is far more robust. Spells seem quite straight forward compared to the fact that dual wield, 2handers, damage/delay, AC, haste, stats like str and dex, procs and so forth on both sides (mob and character) make up a huge amount of permutations and combinations.

It would be cool, for instance, if Wis/Int made our spells land more effectively (barring adding a new stat for this purpose). Most high level chars would be at the cap, but as you say.. melee are also at their caps on melee type stats. Does that make them moot? It would be something seperating the men from the boys.

/shrug

I'm probably just wasting time thinking about it... but then, I think about useless things sometimes. :D As I said earlier, I'm just exploring the topic; it may very well be a complete non-issue.

The desparity between said new/ebayed wizard and the 300+ days played wizard is experience. There would be no other significant way to represent ability in a game that a new/ebayed character couldnt take hold of as well.

EQ is just limited in the ways in which you can display experience and be recognized for it. Maybe that is the issue and not really how well you cast against a mob.

The better point of this post is that alot of casual playing people play casters becauase we can at times play like our raiding brethren.
Caster spells are the same wether you raid or not.
If you don't raid and play a melee you are hopelessly, utterly gimped compared to a raiding melee.

A L65 ebayed rogue will have exactly the same chance of hitting as a fully equipped time geared rogue (well barring a few rare +accuracy items which will slightly increase the hit chance of the time geared rogue).

However the time geared rogue will hit a lot harder because of better weaponry and maxxed worn ATK.

Similarly while the ebayed L65 wizard will have the same chance to land a spell as the time geared wizard, he will do significantly less damage due to lack of AA (perhaps) and worse or no focus effects.

Moreover the ebayed wizard will be able to sustain the damage far less successfully due to a much smaller mana pool, lower mana regen and less mana preservation. The ebayed wizard will be less likely to survive getting aggro due to lower hp - very significant in an xp group, although on a raid both wizards would likely get splattered. However hp are still an advantage on a raid because the ebayed wizard will get splattered very fast by AE damage (lower resists wont help him either).

Other effects like spell casting haste/range, and rightclick concussion are more difficult to quantify, but are also an advantage for the time geared wizard.

Granted, there is a difference between melees and spellcasters in that gear makes more of a difference to melees than it does to casters, but the difference is much smaller than it used to be (due to focus effects, mana/hp items and FT items). The days of naked wizards being able to kill well equipped people on the PVP servers are long gone.

I am unsure of the types of groups you have been in but as a warrior I would put together groups of players that had been around a while. It is difficult to define the difference but playing with old school people means constant pulls by an experienced caster where the mob is root/parked and "qued" for death.

I think that expertise in a class can really shine for an experienced player that is allowed to push the envlope but most players do not want to risk a CR and resign to hitting buttons while watching TV.

I do wonder why there isn't a resist modifier focus line at least for say DDs. In the end though damage focus and a resist focus both just up your average dmg per nuke.

resist modifier focus line at least for say DDs
This sound like a good idea IF you are raiding player but think about none raider.
ATM a raider will have about 20% (focus DD,Focus Mp..) more burts DPS and 40% more DPS (focus items + FT items) over time adding even more focus items that make the gap even bigger seem to me like a bad idea.
I think 40% in DPS before we take into affect HP mana AC resists etc is giving to much edje to the raid player over the soloer.


P.S. just to make it clear i raid 6 days a week so this will help me but i think will hurt the game

I have often suggested that a line of AAs to reduce spell resists for all casting classes would be a welcome addition.

Don't get me started on AA for more spell slots :p

This sound like a good idea IF you are raiding player but think about none raider.
ATM a raider will have about 20% (focus DD,Focus Mp..) more burts DPS and 40% more DPS (focus items + FT items) over time adding even more focus items that make the gap even bigger seem to me like a bad idea.
I think 40% in DPS before we take into affect HP mana AC resists etc is giving to much edje to the raid player over the soloer.


P.S. just to make it clear i raid 6 days a week so this will help me but i think will hurt the game
and thats why you make the lesser versions somewhat easy to get ala id4 and dusty girdle of reformed sand, or other ldon point items. The ones obtainable from raid versions would of course, be stronger.

What exactly does the "Increase effective casting level by 20" items from VT do? If they make your fizzle rate and resist rate be calculated off a level 85 character, then, yes, they would make resist rate go down by a LOT. Basically, it would be like casting on a level 45ish mob at 65 when you cast on anything around level 60-65. So, yes, that level 65 ebay toon will resist more and the level 65 300+ played days wizzie will resist less, if he has that item.

What exactly does the "Increase effective casting level by 20" items from VT do? If they make your fizzle rate and resist rate be calculated off a level 85 character, then, yes, they would make resist rate go down by a LOT. Basically, it would be like casting on a level 45ish mob at 65 when you cast on anything around level 60-65. So, yes, that level 65 ebay toon will resist more and the level 65 300+ played days wizzie will resist less, if he has that item.

It calculates fizzles as if you are 20 levels higher than you really are. However for almost all spells you will already be at the minimum fizzle rate without the item. Therefore in practical terms the item will do very little.

A L65 ebayed rogue will have exactly the same chance of hitting as a fully equipped time geared rogue (well barring a few rare +accuracy items which will slightly increase the hit chance of the time geared rogue).

However the time geared rogue will hit a lot harder because of better weaponry and maxxed worn ATK.

Similarly while the ebayed L65 wizard will have the same chance to land a spell as the time geared wizard, he will do significantly less damage due to lack of AA (perhaps) and worse or no focus effects.

The primary difference is that the disparity between the best equipped and the worst equipped rogues is going to be larger by orders of magnitude than the disparity between the best equipped and worst equipped wizards. A rogue with very poor gear might be lucky to do 20% of the damage of a rogue with the best gear available, whereas the difference in damage output between a naked wizard and a wizard with the best gear available is going to be much less obvious.

Ask a warrior how well they tank naked. They simply cannot perform their primary function at all without significant investment in gear whereas someone whose primary job is to cast direct damage spells can, even if it is at reduced efffectiveness.

Well, you exaggerate somewhat on the state of the rogue but the core concept is true.

A bazaar Rogue for instance will be perhaps a pure liability, sitting at perhaps a third of a time max-AA Rogue with no epic but with reasonable buyable weapoons and haste. Still, a LDoN Rogue (at even 50 adventures) jumps up to a solid 60% of a Time Rogue's damage, presuming they can get the basic epic for the offhand (and honestly that's a pretty easy thing to do even if you needed to bribe people with money raised from tradeskill item farming). A BoT level Rogue is in a similar situation as well and one that can also do a lot of LDoNs can approach a good 65-70% of a Time Rogue with enough effort.

There is a huge disparity in pre and post elemental Rogue damage though and that is the melee theme to a large degree. I'd argue though that it carries over to casters more than we might admit but that's perhaps a different matter. More of casters' power is held in spells and in AAs than in equipment, although focus and FT obviously are quite useful. A Rogue's usefullness is held primarily in a relatively small number of AAs and in worn attack modifiers and weapons. The majority of this is in the weapons though and that's where things get sticky. With LDoN the worn attack is attainable, although very, very, slowly and a decent ratio weapon is also for the offering. It is harder to get than Horror or SoS or whatever you like as a primary damage spell but it can be done.