Another notch in the.. another major coup for the Drinal PoP Flag rebellion. We did all 3 HoH trials including the nasty, nasty dragon (took us 2 tries).

Tomorrow is Mithaniel Marr, wish us luck! If we get past this hurdle the open raid concept will have acheived the 4th tier.

Somehow the game has changed for me. Used to be I liked defeating mobs, now I like laying waste to PoP flags... I feel like, Panamah, the Flag Slayer!

Good luck to you! This is great.

Question...what difference is the Drinal Flag Rebellion than a guild now though? thats all guilds do is get flags keel mobs...which seems to be all their doing now. Doesnt seem much rebellion against anything just another name for a guild.

Tils

A guild is a somewhat permanent committment, unless you're the type who uses guilds as stepping stones. What they're doing on Drinal appears to be a loose alliance requiring no particular guild affliation. It's a way for people to band together with others <em>specifically</em> for the purpose of mass-flagging upper PoP tiers -- not for the purpose of everyday raiding and not even for the purpose of hunting in those planes with people from the alliance (although it's likely many friendships are being forged from this experience).

For many small and mid-sized guilds, this is an alternative to ballooning their guilds' numbers into zerg forces just so they can progress further into PoP. They're still retaining their own guild identities.

I think this is a great thing, and honestly wish folks on all servers could come together to accomplish big goals without sacrificing their chosen styles of play and family style guilds over the longterm.

~Firemynd

Grats to them, and if there were something like this on my server, I'd be cheering them on as well. It's also nice to see guilds working together for a change instead of the usual cockblocking.

Yeah, pretty much an open raid with the intent of defeating the PoP flags at every opportunity. I.E. We take out a flag mob and try to flag anyone and everyone, not just people on the raid. The idea here is that we all pretty much hate PoP flags and will do what we can to get people past them. Sometimes it isn't elegant, but we get the job done.

We also get a few people from some very isolationist guilds, well, one actually, that really think we're criminal. Someone sent one of the raid leaders a tell that he should be ashamed of himself for leading these raids, that flags should be "worked for" and "earned". A point of view I just can't understand since most of the people on these raids won't ever been in guilds large enough or uber enough to stand a chance. Just makes me think that there's a lot of snobbery or perhaps jealousy lurking in some people that comes out thinly disguised as righteous indignation.

For the most part the best raiding guilds have been very supportive and send along their people that need flags and even give us helpful hints. They see the value in not re-doing the same stuff over and over. Really suprised by the incredible amount of cooperation that many, many people have displayed. Have even had some good support from GM's when we needed their assistance.

I applaud your efforts! I hate pop flags too, I recently have been playing again, and for more than 70% of the events my guild does I have to sit out because I don't have a flag.

You guys should hurry up and finish any mass-flaggings you want done soon. Willing to bet the gimps who zerged RZ are going to get flag limits placed on Planar Projections with in a patch or 2.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Someone sent one of the raid leaders a tell that he should be ashamed of himself for leading these raids, that flags should be "worked for" and "earned".</blockquote>

Where's my violin?
<img src=http://gwynhyfar.homestead.com/files/violin.gif>

That's what I'd gesture to the person telling me that those people didn't earn it or have no business entering the next zones.

It does amaze me that players feel so snobbish and self-righteous. Wasn't the spirit of this game predicated on cooperation and sportsmanship? No, I'm not a fan of zerging, but in this case, I make an exception due to the rather contrived linearity of the game's own cockblock system.

I gotta cheer these guys.

Fortunately, several of the larger guilds on Cazic are really cool and take along some guests to get flagged when they do these things.

Just a matter if being in the right place at the right time

IF SOE does put a limit on PoP flags, then they have once again kissed the backside of the elitie guilds. Because, the elite guilds do NOT want anyone else to attain what they have and to hunt what they consider "theirs". /rude SOE once again.

Top end guilds spent months of time to prep for emp, then equip up in VT, then work for their POP advancement to tier 4+ planes, equipment from VT is almost needed to get there, as well as skill, and good raid leaders.
Then along comes an un-equipped zerg alliance that just overcomes mobs with huge numbers rather than equipment and skill, I'd be pissed too.

<strong>Top end guilds spent months of time to prep for emp, then equip up in VT, then work for their POP advancement to tier 4+ planes, equipment from VT is almost needed to get there, as well as skill, and good raid leaders.

Then along comes an un-equipped zerg alliance that just overcomes mobs with huge numbers rather than equipment and skill, I'd be pissed too.</strong>


The accomplishment is in doing a task with fewer numbers and with greater individual skilll (arguably). The above does not detract from that at all. Unless, of course, you buy into the hazing ritual mentality, or the "I did it the hard way, so everyone else has to" mindset.

Keep in mind that there is skill in marshalling and directing a large force. It's just a different kind of skill.

An "unequipped" comment gives this mindset away. I've participated in one of Panamah's raids, and the folks were perfectly well equipped. They just weren't equipped with VT items. It's a mindset I've seen in other uberguilds....they think that the "proles" shouldn't have access to the higher tiers of PoP without having gone through VT first. Thus overlooking the fact that having been to VT, and receiving VT equipment, is the reward of having gone to VT. VT (and the incredible time needed to get there) should not be a prerequisite for the upper levels of PoP.

To folks with that mindset, I give a big, fat raspberry. With a smile....

Im just explaining why someone would be against it, I myself have nothing against people getting flags, just that i'll do em with my guild without outside help, more of a feel of accomplishment that way, IMO.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>open raid concept will have acheived the 4th tier. [/quote]
Btw just killing MM isn't going to get you into tier 4...

Well I should hope that these "uber guild" comments are not coming from my guild.


I'm enjoying sending our unflagged members to your events =D.

Flags were a very very bad idea on SOEs part. They'd have worked if PoP and all the previous expansions got released at once and everyone was level 1 and just starting the game, but to make an expansion where a large chunk of their players will spend most of their time in this flagged environment, it doesn't work well.

The fact that people see flags as rewards at all should clue you in to how this is screwed up. Advancement in an MMORPG game should be perpendicular, i.e. I should be able to advance in levels, advance in tradeskills, advance in exploring the game as independant things. If I spend all my time doing tradeskills I should be able to become very good at tradeskills but be low level, not seen much of the game, not have gotten a lot of good loot, etc. Flagging however screws all of that up. It obstruct leveling and tradeskilling and acquiring loot, it adds unrelated hurdles, hoops SOE wants you to jump through, on your path.

The threads on every single class board about the PoJ trials and the hurdle to leveling should have been the first clue to SOE that something was wrong. I don't consider the PoJ trials to be a big hurdle but it definetly is one and just the first of many. I think it may in fact have been the only warning SOE is going to get as people are going to be frustrated with PoP but not have as an obvious reason for their frustrations so will end up just quitting instead of posting their disgust.

Ok, I think I've got something wrong. My understanding was that killing a tier 3 boss mob gets you to tier 4. Do you have to kill them all first? Ick! I hate flags even more now.

everquest.allakhazam.com/...s_1_13.gif (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/maps/Planes_of_Power_flags_1_13.gif)

Marr + Vallon + Tallon + Saryrn -> Solusek Ro's Tower
Rallos + Agnarr -> water + earth + air
Rallos + Agnarr + Solusek Ro -> fire

Simple answer: Except for the 7th Hammer, you need every single flag from Tiers 1 to 3, except for the flags from inside Sol Ro's Tower, to get flagged for 3 of the 4 Elemental (Tier 4 planes). You need the flags from inside Sol Ro's tower (including killing Sol Ro) to get flagged for the 4th Elemental Plane.

Detailed ansnwer: You don't just need Rallos + Agnarr to get into Ele planes - you need almost *everything* from Tiers 1->3. This is because the Rallos flag won't be "registered" on your character until you have completed, among other things the Cipher of Druzzil (which is Bert, Saryn and the Zek brothers I think?). Note you can get the RZ flag early, and then unlock your memories at the Seer after you have done everything else to get the RZ flag to be recognised.

Once you have all that done, you can then zone into Earth, Air and Water. To zone into Fire you need to complete another 4 flags from the Sol Ro Tower mini-bosses (maybe 5 - can't remember if Jiva is another flag) and then kill Solusek Ro.

Cheers,

Sorran.

Well, that's probably going to put the brakes on the rebellion getting to tier 4. It's really hard to get the same people to show up everytime because inevitably at least one or two guilds have a heavy raid day, so we've got the same flagging issues that guilds do, only far worse because we need more people.

For instance, at our HoHB thing today we only had 30 of the 100 or so people show up that were at Rydda'Dar yesterday.

Still, it's a lot of fun (in a somewhat masochistic sense) to defeat the tier 2 bosses.

Probably the rebellion will have to evolve into a coalition of guilds or people that are committed to progressing and require some additional planning and scheduling. My co-leaders aren't quite as anal as I am about scheduling stuff. They tend to be spur of the moment kind of folks while I'm a planner, researcher, gotta have every detail nailed down kind of gal.

I think the mass flaggings is great. A big FU to sony and their flags.

Will SOE put a stop to the mass flaggings? Yes by limiting the number of flags a mob can hand out.

What will happen after that? Simple solution is folks still band together and flag as many as they can. Next time server comes up, wash, rinse, repeat. It will take longer but not by much. If the put the number of flags too low than folks will raise holy hell and SOE will have the casual gamers leaving yet again.

Remember that there is ample supply of folks who need flagging, including alts. So there is ample manpower to draw from.

SOE wont put a limit to the number of folks in the zone. The only other way to would be to make the encounter like the trials where only a certain number of folks can go into the area to fight. Again this would cause A LOT of customer discontent with an area that many many casual gamers are already unhappy about.

I don't think they will do anything about this till LOY comes out anyway. Why take a chance on killing the golden goose before it lays the golden egg?

It cracks me up reading FOH board and having some of the ubers complain. They will have folks taking mobs in the elemental plains from them, so their prime hunting ground wont be solely theirs like VT was. Poor poor crying ubers.

The flag system is BS and needs to be changed (it aint going away). Making an encounter for say 24 folks (ala POJ trials) at a time like the trials would have been much better than the crap they got now. Have the flagging mobs drop no loot and have them spawn once a day. Tone down the encounter for a 24 person encounter. And I detest the trials.

IMO Sony did the flags the way they are now to stop folks from uncovering the UNFINISHED content.

PoP has made it evident that there is very clear communication between SOE and the casual player.

SOE to casual player - We want your money.

Casual player to SOE - Shove your flags up your *ss!!!!

Panamah, you might want to focus now on the flags that DO open up new zones. Like TT to get to Torment.

We have no idea what SOE thinks of these mass flagging events, they might think they're wonderful for all we know. Certainly the majority of the players hate flags and SOE has lost a lot of favor from lots of people for designing their expansion like this, maybe they're happy to see people take their lemon and make lemonade. Hard to say.

If they want to make people really mad they'll put limits on the flagging things. If they want to be more accomodating they'll leave it alone or make them last longer. I did notice the HoH trial guys didn't stay up very long. Was barely enough time to res and hail them. We certainly didn't have the option of getting extraneous people there to get flagged.

I noticed over on Safehouse there are people complaining about flag leeches. So they might be getting pulled in two different directions.

Good suggestion, Scirocco.

Flag leeches, in my opinion, are those who get a flag contrary to the intent of those killing the mob in question. The solution is to limit flags to those in the raid. That leaves it up to the raid leaders to determine whether someone gets flagged or not.

To the poster that felt that SOE may like these mass flaggings to overcome unpopular design features (I paraphrase) I submit the following (my opinion, everyone has one).

PoP has been out for 4-5 months. LOYmay be out at the end of this month (I doubt it. I would say 1st week of March soonest).

There is a vague rumor of at least one more expansion in the works. IF that is true figure it is at least 4 months off. I say this because the news of LOY was released 3 months after PoP came out. That timeline isnt concrete but they have to have time to crank out zones, itemize, test (yeah right), while they fix the problems they got (and LOY is gonna dump more problems in their laps).

If LOY has decent loot count on the named being permacamped on every server by one or 2 guilds of lvl 65s. The entire content will be gone throuh in less than 2 weeks by the guilds that have 30-40 lvl 65s in them (these zones were made for lvl 35-60). If they don't have ZEMs close to PoP then few if anyone (other than those camping the named - CT is practically empty nowadays) will even bother to go there for experience.

PoP is itemized worth crap and it is extremely doubtful that LOY will be except for the first few weeks to get all of us naysayers to buy it before they nerf the drop rates to hell in a handbasket (can anyone say windblades, parchments, etc).

That last thing SOE wants is to see mass numbers of folks in the elemental planes. Why??

1. The uber guilds are bitching now that their solo hunting grounds are going to be getting camped less than a month after they got there by folks "who have no pride in their characters" and folks that have "no skill" (because they were part of a 200 man force to kill the flag mobs).

2. The more folks in the elemental planes the more likely POT will be cracked in the next two months ( I give it till 15th of March and I think that is pushing it). If the 2 guilds that are in POEB need more bodies they have any number of volunteers to use in their quest to be the first guild in POT. All the while decrying the 200 man raids that are getting flagged now (see FOH website). If they had to choose between gamewide first into POT using zerg forces and coming in second they will be number 1.

3. It is a pretty good bet that POT isnt finished (look at the current situation with POEB key) and it is a very very good bet that SOE didnt think players would be anywhere near as far in PoP as they are now (look at the situation with the POEB key).

Only thing that may slow folks down is SOE redoing about 4 zones ala CT. Giving them good loot and close-to-PoP ZEMs.

So I am led to the conclusion that SOE doesnt like the zerg force raids that are getting folks flagged. At least not the ones like RZ and SOL RO. Count on at least these 2 to have limited number of flaggings. But also I wouldn't count on many changes between now and when LOY comes out. Again why kill the goose that lays the eggs before you have to. Money if SOE's first priority. PoP taught us that.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Then along comes an un-equipped zerg alliance that just overcomes mobs with huge numbers rather than equipment and skill, I'd be pissed too.</blockquote>

Do you grow your own food in your own backyard? I don't. So what if I buy my food at the grocery store? So what if I get take-out twice a week?

Not everyone should have to do things "the hard way." Especially not for artificial cockblocks. Especially not for a video game. It's just a game, not some testament of your work ethic or deepest, most intimate character. Did you get your epic the hard way too or did you benefit from subsequent changes to the druid epic quest that made achieving the weapon more reasonable? I certainly benefitted from the more streamlined quest, and I'm not embarrassed to say I did either. I didn't walk to school in three feet of snow with no boots. ;)

Of course the 'ubers' are complaining. They don't like anybody in their yards. They like to get to an area first, farm the crap out of it and move on with no interference. Who wouldn't like that? So until everybody in their guild has every spell, every piece of elemental armor and have rung the crap out of the server charging 100k plus plat per spell then they arent' going to be happy.

Kudos to those pushing ahead. Hopefully you will actually get far enough into PoP to enjoy the way it should be rather then the nerfed zones we get after the ubers have moved on.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">They don't like anybody in their yards. They like to get to an area first, farm the crap out of it and move on with no interference. Who wouldn't like that?</blockquote>

Except the yards don't belong to anyone.

If you are playing a computer game to feel superior to others in some way -- and over imaginary items or us lowly masses ruining your precious -- you need a life. ;)

Congrats!

It is an accomplishment, and I hope something like this happens on my server.

"Then along comes an un-equipped zerg alliance that just overcomes mobs with huge numbers rather than equipment and skill, I'd be pissed too."

I guess the Japenese were pissed when instead of fighting them head on in an invasion we used the bomb.

BTW there are still folks who feel that because they sat for 3 days in Naggy's chambers staring at a wall to get their cleric epic that all clerics should do so. Or in druids' case have a twink run around TD trying to agro Faydedar.

You lead these zergs for flags, but have no clue what flags are needed for what zones :evil:

"You lead these zergs for flags, but have no clue what flags are needed for what zones "

Does it matter?

Do they have to go A, B, C, D, E in that order? Is this the infamous storyline that casual players have been bombarded with the past few months? The same storyline that is so imporatant you have dozens of broken quests, etc, in the game.

Who says they have to or even want to as long as before doing E they take down all the prequisite mobs for E?

Are they exploiting? No. If they were they would be getting banned. In a sense they are doing the same thing as powerleveling. After all if a lvl 65 pulls a mob to a zone beats it down to 2 hitpoints and zones and then their lvl 35 bot kills it you dont see anyone crying.

It looks like they are taking whatever mobs are up and that they can get to VS going in any specific order (other than what they are constrained to do by virtue of which zones they have access to)

The main question is ARE THEY HAVING FUN? That is what they are paying for.

In the meantime you have some of the ubers crying and complaining that OH MY GOSH casual players are getting into zones that they (the ubers) are in. BOO FREAKING HOO. Look at previous threads on this board where the casual players were told to STFU, that's life, and casual players didn't earn the right to go into the zones the Ubers were in.

How many folks does it take FOH to take down a flag mob? Probably as many as needed to do the job

How many folks does it take the casual players to take down a flag mob? Probably as many as needed to do the job.

Maybe some folks think that Naggy should be killed only by folks lvl 50 and under in bronze armor. After all isn't that the way it was done back in the day? (Answer YES. Because I was there back in the day)

People here keep posting rants against uber guilds and crap for putting down things like Panamah is doing.

I'm the Guildleader of Cats in Hats and I've done nothing but congradulate her on her efforts and successes.

You guys need to lay off the uber guild rants.....

Cronuus you really gotta get a grip on your holier-than-thou attitude. I bet 2 months ago you didnt know what flags you needed for the elementals either.

In the mean time, these guys are having some fun bucking the lame-@#%$ flag system, and I congratulate them for it! Keep goin!

You may wind up having to do all the lower level bosses multiple times to get a big enough flagged base to take on the higher ones, much like regular guilds had to. I guess I'm saying dont get discouraged by naysayers and such if your pace seems to slow down, just keep working at it!

Tia

Actually this message forum seems to be more supportive than most of them. Quite a few of them really rant about the open raids doing this. Obviously this really torques off FoH, someone posted a rant there a while back about what a crime it is that numbers can stand in for equipment and I've been blasted on Safehouse, even by Cronuus who also posts here. The only guild we've gotten any grief from on Drinal wasn't CiH and wasn't exactly what I'd call uber, and I think that it was a small, vocal minority of the guild but they continue to tell us we should be ashamed of ourselves for doing this.

Still the people who think it's a neat thing and wish their own servers would do likewise seem to be far more in number than the critics.

I'm vocal about it because I really hate the PoP flags and I hope someday SOE will wake up and realize that most people *do* hate them and think they're junk. A pipe dream, most likely.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">You guys need to lay off the uber guild rants.....</blockquote>

OK, I might lay off lumping them all together, but it *is* funny how a few individuals from certain guilds are trying to get flagging nerfed as I type this. And no, I'm not talking about FOH's forum; anyone can read and post there.

Cronuus seriously bud I don t think you can really talk about this.If they feel like fielding 100 + peoples to kill a mob then more power to them.Don t be an @#%$ because they do stuff you can t do.

Ps:Gwyn tu parle trop hehe.

"a few individuals from certain guilds "

That certainly doesn't sound like anything near a majority....let alone a stereotype setting precedent. :)

Good work Panamah and co. That mob is probably one of our least favorite fights... :)

Lalian, It already has =)




Elder Bladari Goldenbeans
65 Storm Warden
Quell Server

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Ps:Gwyn tu parle trop hehe.</blockquote>

Et alors Kinuvan? De quoi aurais-je peur, dis-moi? Certainement pas de ces &eacute;go&iuml;stes qui veulent tout changer apr&egrave;s avoir eu leurs 'drapeaux.'


<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">That certainly doesn't sound like anything near a majority....let alone a stereotype setting precedent. :)</blockquote>

Never said it was a majority. But if I did say who was behind it, you wouldn't be surprised.

C est pas un open board ma belle, t as pas le droit de parler de ca tu le sais bien.

/movelog Panamah to Bristlebane

Darn it's not working... /kicks the server

its a 'world board' speak english (and not as bad as me pls )

nan mais est ce que je parle en francais moi :) :) :)

ps : grats panamah and gogogo kill more mobs, have fun

A leader should at least have a clue about what their doing and why... tons of charts posted all over the place, easy to research.

I think this is wonderful and anyone who tries to take away from your momentary high on defeating such a topend encounter is just trying to hold everyone down. Unfortunately, there are 2 ways to get ahead in the world and in Norrath..

1. Get ahead.
2. Kick everyone else down, therefore getting ahead.

Most don't care which they do, only that they are ahead.

Congrats on your big takedowns, and just so you know, it inspires me. As someone who had to leave a small family guild and join a raiding guild to start knocking out the flags, I'm very pleased to see some are overcoming the odds. I'm loving raiding more and more with the new guild, but it's still inspiring to see that some are getting flags this way.

If anyone is putting you down, it IS because they are upset you are in their farming zone. In PoD castle group (good example as it is a better source of tier 1 exp) I could get 10% exp in somewhere around 2 hours or so. Maybe an hour and a half if we had a high rate of pulls. In HoH, I can solo, duo with any class, or group for 10% in 30 mins or less. This isn't even taking into account casters' need for spells. Past 63, no spells can be gotten before PoS/PoV and even then I think specs are nerfed into non-existance. HoH drops specs VERY rarely, but they drop.

First, I don't think I'm far off when I say that the majority of players hate the flagging system. Detest it, really. As much as some of the ubers here seem to love it (for obvious reasons). Thus you see many references to this being a "rebellion" against SOE's flagging system. I imagine it's better to keep these paying customers in the game, from a business point of view, as I believe that throwing further roadblocks in their way will cause many to quit at this point.

Second, the risk vs. reward is perfectly acceptable. A less than 1% chance of winning a loot item for fairly low risk (there is still some risk as many people do end up dying on these events; and if you don't look upon dying, and the time it takes to recover from dying, as the "risk," than there's no risk to speak of for anyone in any PoP zone). Flagging isn't the reward; it's simply a hated barrier to be trampled by as many angry feet as possible.

Third, there is skill involved in forming one of these raids. It may require different kinds of skills (i.e., getting a large number of people organized and cooperating together) than the more individualized skills a smaller force must apply, but they are still skills. And socially proactive skills at that. I know some people play this game competitively, but I think it's a great thing when hundreds of people can learn to play cooperatively.

Fourth, any mob should be able to be taken down by an appropriate force. Your definition of appropriate force might be X VT-equipped players. But that doesn't mean it's the only appropriate force.

Fifth, what are the ubers really worried about? So what if more people have access to higher level PoP zones. If it is true that these folks are inferior to you in equipment or tactics, they won't be able to kill mobs in the higher level zones very effectively. If they can, then they have just as much of a right to be there as you do.

Sixth, the collective raid is simply the same collective action that caused uber guilds to form in the first place. Larger numbers of folks to overcome the most difficult encounters, with the only limit being a technical one. Some of these actions involved multiple smaller guilds, and as it happened more and more frequently, many merged or grew larger. In other words, what we are seeing is the uber guilds potentially being "out-ubered" at their own game. It's just the next stage in collective action.

BTW, as an interesting sidenote, many of the smaller guilds have the opinion that the existing uberguilds can do certain things only due to numbers. In effect, uberguilds "zerg" encounters. One guild's "appropriate force" is another guild's "zerg raid."

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<strong>Scirocco you need to take off your "uber guild" hating blinkers and really look at why some people are upset.</strong>

LOL...I don't hate uber guilds. I get a good laugh out of the viewpoint of some members of uber guilds, because the self-serving statements about "lack of skill" are so transparent. Uber guilds are a natural development in the game, just like the zerg raids are now.



<strong>What some people are upset about, is they and their guilds have put in many, many man hours learning encounters like Rallos Zek, with their guilds, only to see a massive zerg force of 200+ take him down with little or no experience in learning the encounter.</strong>


Why does that upset them? They still were able to overcome RZ early on and with fewer numbers, thus increasing the reward for them, whether it is a better chance for loot or the psychic satisfaction that comes from doing a mob with fewer numbers. Having some other group of players do the mob with greater numbers doesn't detract from that accomplishment. If it does, that bespeaks worlds about that person.



<strong>Zerging lacks skill, I don't care what excuses you want to give to justify it, be it the ability to socially interact with people to get them to do what you want or not, it lacks skill period.</strong>


Spoken like a true uber. You simply refuse to recognize that it requires different skills. I'm not the one wearing blinders.


<strong>That one brought a tear to my eye, a tear of laughter that is. My guild has a raid force average of 55, I'm damn proud of what we do with 55 people. 55 people is not zerging.</strong>


If my group can do the mob with 18 people, and it takes you 55, then you are zerging the encounter. As I said, one's man's zerg...

I don't see anything wrong with doing flagging events with a 'zerg' type force. Power to the people! :p

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All people just need to take their blinders off and realize that this is a very complex game and there are several ways to play it.

Unfortunately, PoP flags have highlighted the best and the worst of this game. What is the sense in feeling angry when someone expresses their opinion? I don't see Scirocco pointing at any particular person. I do see Cronuus poking fun at Panamah. And I do see others saying that this achievement in coordination means nothing because its all abut zerg tactics.

Frankly, this thread and the others like it sickens me, because it shows up the terrible elitism that is rampant in this game.

Let everyone have fun with this <strong>game</strong> however they can find it. Why is that so hard to do? We all play it (many of us probably play more than we "should"), we all have found something meaningful in the playing of it. Why can't we focus on those things instead of always wanting everyone else to be just the same?

I, for one, congratulate Panamah. It sounds like you're having fun and the folks who are fighting with are having fun. That's the most important.

If zerg is what it takes, welp, there ya go. I have zerged and I have raided with a tight force - the latter, I found, to be more fun and more satisfying. Just my opinion.

What I find interesting about the Drinal thing is once you get all these people flagged, what does that leave them? How many of those zones are "zones-you-can-group-in"? How many of them are merely "raid zones"? Yes, you can physically take a group into HohB, torment, even some of the elemental planes - but you'd get your @#%$ handed to you. So then you'll either have to keep on zerging with that massive amount of people or zone in and say "ooh, I'm in Sol Ro!" and then zone out. (Sol Ro is probably not a great example - a very good puller could pull for an xp group there).

Actually, Sol Ro - excellent example. First time I raided there to get the 5 flags, it was with a small force (20? 30?). Had a blast. Each of the 5 flags was close and everyone was focused - had to be. Second time, full raid force (whatever a full "raid" is). It was sooo boring because I could nuke or not and it didn't matter. No one really needed help with healing. Boring boring boring.

But then, THIS IS MY OPINION. Flame me not. Or flame me. I don't care.

omfg

did someone just honestly try to explain why a raid sized force of 55 is not a zerg force? spawn more overlords....

yes, its all relative. but as far as im concerned, a zerg force is anything over 24. this is the cut off where if you go afk.. its not noticed. if you de equip your weapons and replace them with fine steel... its not noticed. if you spend the remainder of the raid casting see invis on yourself to raise that pesky alteration skill (or whatever), its not noticed.

unless, that is, youre one of the 3-4 people on the raid whos actually oing something critical.. (MT, CH chain, pulling)

now does this mean that any guilds who uses forces of 55 or more is skill-less, zerg guild? of course not. <strong> verant has tuned the game to make raid forces of 50 and more, an absolute necessity</strong> - no blame should be assigned to guilds who simply do what it takes to succeed.

but trying to defend the difference between 55 and 200 is laughable.

face it folks.. if youve participated in a raid with 50 or more people, youve participated in the exact same type of raid as this. dont delude yourselves.

take these mobs down with 24 and ill be impressed.

until then? viva la revolution.

"Zerging lacks skill, I don't care what excuses you want to give to justify it, be it the ability to socially interact with people to get them to do what you want or not, it lacks skill period. My guild has a raid force average of 55, I'm damn proud of what we do with 55 people."


It depends on how you look at it. Lets take FoH, Afterlife, etc for example. They do things first before everyone else. ITs been rumored they have SoE connections or something, and maybe some test to get info most players dont have access to but who knows. They are basically the pioneers. Then there are guilds that do things after they do. These guilds often take strats from FoH, Afterlife, etc. that have done stuff before them, and some even have personal relationships with members of those guilds where they can get helpful tips or strats. Then you have guilds that do things after those guilds do, that take strats, tips, hints, etc from the ones before. And so on, and so on. Each accomplishment for each guild as time goes by becomes less of an actual accomplishment because its made easier through info/tips/hints from the ones who have already done it.

So my question to you is, couldnt FoH, Afterlife, etc. look down at you for not figuring everything out on your own? For making an encounter easier than it was because you took knowledge of others doing it, and applied it to your victory? Isnt that cheating in a way?, along the same lines of others zerging from your perspective? I'm not sure how each and every guild works, but i'd bet there are VERY few that go into encounters without any clue as to what the Mob does, and figures EVERYTHING out on their own. Especially, once you get past FoH, Afterlife, etc. i'm sure the ones that are completely doing these encounters on their own are few and far between. Even with FoH, Afterlife, etc. it can be argued that they do have inside help/info that already puts them at a significant advantage above everyone else. A guild with ANY inside info/help whatsoever shouldnt be talking to anybody about the 'right' way to do encounters, since they themselves are 'cheating'.

And sadly basically 99% of guilds in EQ cheat in some way. Whether it be zerging, inside info, test info, previous guild info, etc. its all cheating imo.

Why does everyone label a large raid a zerg? What exactly is a zerg? Do zergs have MT's, cheal chains, crowd control task forces, people responsible for kiting adds, MGB heal chains? Do they make strategic use of AA abilities?

If I have 3 guilds combining up to do Aerin'Dar is that a zerg?
Is it a zerg if there's 2 and they're both uber guilds with equipment from VT?
Is it a zerg if there's 1 very large guild?

Exactly when does a raid cross the line from being a raid into a "zerg"? I'm confused, this term gets thrown around all the time, maybe someone can enlightnen me.

Actually Cronus, my confusion about what to kill was caused by the flow chart I looked at. It looked to me like there were multiple paths to Sol Ro tower.

By the way, I doubt Scirocco hates uber guilds, he probably just doesn't like the uber-attitude that a lot of uber guild folks display about thinking that PoP is their private playground and everyone else should stay the hell away.

Chenier, the Rebellion has gotten people into HoH, CoD and Plane of Tactics and now HoHB. With the exception of HoHb those are all zones the people are able to take their own xp groups and small raids too. If we should somehow make it to the next level of planes I expect the same thing will happen.

Before we got to Tier 3 I heard "You can't take an exp group there because they won't have good enough equipment or skills." And that was BS. Now you're saying it for the next level of planes. Forgive me if I'm skeptical. You may be right, but I've heard that enough times and seen it proven wrong already that I'm pretty skeptical.

These people that raid with us are experienced raiders, they just haven't gone to VT. Most of them know thier roles quite well. We get a few each time that I'd personally like to strange, like the morons that spam the raid with emotes and the eternally impatient, but mostly they're good folks who know what to do.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My guild has a raid force average of 55, I'm damn proud of what we do with 55 people.[/quote]
So, why can't you still be proud of what you do with 55 folks? Why is it <strong>necessary</strong> to be upset about this type of collaboration? Does it somehow cheapen your guild's accomplishment if an encounter is zerged if you do it "legit" (whatever that means)?

Please enlighten me.

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Matafleur, trying to follow your logic here. I take what you are saying, if you're raiding something that requires 36 people to provide a challenging experience, i.e. there's a risk of failure, and if the other 19 in your guild log in that night, you tell them to go do something else because they aren't needed for that raid?

Or do you take all 55 and "zerg"?

"I hope I've made the difference between a raid sized force of 55 and a zerg sized force of 200 clear.

I am once again astounded by some of the ignorance being shown but if you haven't played at that level, how are you going to know how it works?"


I completely see the difference in approach, but i dont see equality either. That force of 55 may have advantages that force of 200 doesnt have. It can be argued that more people are needed, because they dont have the priveleges your force of 55 does. Has your force of 55 ever had inside info? Has your force of 55 ever tested for Verant before and applied that knowledge to your victories? Does your force of 55 play everyday? Does your force of 55 consist of every class you need when you want it? Does your force of 55 consist of all hardcore players with AAs/LVLs/Equipment well above everyone elses? So why couldnt a force of 200 be equal to your force of 55 in degree of difficulty when your advantages(equipment, lvls, aa's) per player are so much more?

I just dont see why you would begrudge players for accomplishing something in relation to where they are at in the game. Of course something is going to be 10x's easier if you max'd AA/lvld/geared with all the 'right' classes you could want. Without those advantages, expect a force 4x's what you have to accomplish the same means. Imo, its not a matter of skill, its a matter of advantages and disadvantages each of you have, with the same goal to advance.

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Everyone who has fun in the game makes the game more fun, as far as I'm concerned. Folks who have fun on their own terms, uber or not, make me happier to be part of the game. Personally at this point, I'm avoiding PoP like the plague, but I still cheer for Panamah and his crew for taking on a goal and accomplishing it. I feel the same abut KtF or any other singular guild that accomplishes what they like in the game.

It's fine to be proud of your achievements, and your guild. What other people accomplish on their own doesn't have to affect you or your pride at all.

yah...have fun...

I had a great fun killing everything that moved in East Karana the past two days...dire charmed griffons rock. =)

Now if I could just get the griff to loot the silks and then give them to me, I'd never have to move.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Panamah, what I am saying is I do not consider 55 people taking on Rallos as a zerg force becauase that is widely accepted as a number which is "safe" to try him with, whereas 200 is a number which will annihalate him. I'm going to repeat myself if I carry on so I'm going to stop.
[/quote]

What I'm trying to point out is your inconsistency. It's not a "zerg" if you do it with your guild with more than you need, yet it is a cheap zerg and the other guys are clueless zergers if someone else does it with more numbers than you. At least, that's what your argument looks like to me.

The Rebellion has a different set of priorities than a guild does. We're not trying to equip people with l33t equipment, we're trying to get people flagged. Some of those people are in uber guilds, some are not. When we do these raids we can't afford to wipe, and learn, and equip everyone on the raid with uber equipment. We're singlemindedly pursuing the goal of getting the flag. A small guild can play with encounters. Take a stab, learn from it and retry until they get it. We can't afford to do it that way. Most of us do that with our guilds when we're raiding with them, but that isn't the goal of these raids. It's really difficult to get 100 or more people buffed up, into position and ready to go. Just moving that many people without making a train can be an incredible challenge probably most of you can't fathom. One invis drops and the person doesn't notice it... several (dozen) afk people get left behind. Wipes are catastrophic and it takes a long time to recover from them and people get pretty impatient on these raids.

So to that end, we stack the deck with more numbers than we need to get it right. We don't take 200 -- tried it once, it was horrible. But we do try to make sure we aren't going to fail. And that's a combination of numbers, knowing ahead of time which tactics will most likely win the encounter, short of using exploits. Although we were pretty uninformed on the HoH trials. And using the right people for the job. Generally our average level is 63 or 64.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> did quite chuckle when I first saw this post. Images of the rebellion in Star Wars came to mind. I felt happy for these people who had "beaten" the Evil Empire of Verant. What made me angry though were blind, clueless comments made by people like yourself Scirocco. My guess, you're not in an "uber" guild so cannot see first hand what it's like to have your achievements ridiculed by many people on this board.[/quote]

It isn't your acheivements that people ridicule, it's the attitude that you are the only ones entitled to play the game and the game must be played in exactly the same manner you played it. And the attitude that you're the only ones deserving to be in the high level PoP content in your exclusive playgrounds. And the attitude that SOE is only developing the game for uber-guilds to play in and everyone else should just shut up and leave you alone. That is what I think pisses off most people. Not every member of uber guilds thinks like this, but it does seem to be a fairly prevalent attitude.

If you want exclusive content then run an NWN server and invite your friends to play with you. Otherwise get used to the idea that this is a public playground and you'll have to share the sandbox with the other kids.

Just my 2cp..

I think what she did is outstanding. I don't understand why some people think that just because they used 100+ people they shouldn't have been able to do it. They paid for the game just like you and are as much entitled to see new things as you are. I am in a small guild and would love it if something like this happened on my server. I find it amusing that people in "uber guilds" (<strong>not all, but most</strong>) are upset about this. Especially since if you go to any of their webpages, you will probably see their recruitment classes. They don't want more Druids, Mages, Necros, etc, because they have "too many". How do you expect these people to be able to enjoy the game to it's fullest if they can't join a guild strong enough to do it with 30 people or less because they aren't a desired class?? I think this is great and I wish her the best of luck in future challenges. Let's remember - this is a game.

Aaliane Wyndryder
62nd Druides of Tunare
Mythology
Morell-Thule

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The only comparison I can make here is Faydedar. Remember the old Faydedar when you had to camp him for god knows how long, then kite him for ages till you got your crew over to kill him? Then he was changed to a triggered spawn. I remember druids being incensed that he had been trivialised and many felt cheated.[/quote]

The game evolves and some encounters are changed. Characters get stronger and more powerful and higher level. Because of these advantages, killing Faydedar in today's EQ does not provide the same sense of accomplishment that it provided for those who defeated the dragon using items and spells far inferior to what is available now.

So if any should feel cheated, it would be those who aren't able to say they defeated Fay when their average raid-buffed tank had 3k hp, and can't say they accomplished the encounter using only the items and spells available in that era. Those who do Fay now are cheated because the encounter isn't as difficult and no longer yields the same degree of satisfaction.

Yet people are still killing Faydedar because they need a piece for their epic -- they aren't doing it for the satisfaction or sense of pride because those rewards are no longer offered by the encounter.

Similarly, many people who wish to continue progressing in PoP are not in large guilds (and contrary to what you seem to think, 55 high level members is a fairly large guild). These people are willing to sacrifice that sense of accomplishment which comes from progressing by their guild's power alone. In that respect, they are being cheated. They may eventually be cheated again if they discover they've spent time on flags for zones they're not ready to hunt in.

But that's how it should have been all along. The zones themselves should determine who can hunt in them, by virtue of mob difficulty and all the other factors which make a zone 'dangerous' -- not because of flag requirements put into the game more as timesinks than deterrents. The only time flags and key quests should be used as prerequisites to zone access, is when the zones themselves require a certain level of raiding committment in order to survive initial entry.

As Scirocco pointed out, the reward for earning VT access was the special loot available only in that zone. Getting VT gear was never intended to be a requirement for further progression in the game. Indeed, those equipped with VT gear will certainly have some advantages for pursuing future content, but that itself is an additional reward, not a qualifier. Otherwise SOE would have integrated VT keys as a necessary component of PoP flagging.

~Firemynd

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not every member of uber guilds thinks like this, but it does seem to be a fairly prevalent attitude.[/quote]

this isn't always true. in fact, members from the most uber guild on Ayo Ro (Eternal Wrath) have actually helped people get through the PoJ trials on numberous occations.

when I did the trials we had a 65 EW warrior tanking the mobs. I've heard other people say that so-and-so from EW came back to help them get flagged. that experience really changed my perception of uber guilds. :)

I'd second that, Miles. I've seen several uber-guild folks helping out with trials on a regular basis, which is really cool, IMO. It sure makes me think twice before I make snap judgments based on a guild tag.

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I think that's why they said not all of them, but some. I actually got through the trials with one of the stronger guilds on our server - Reviction. 5 Reviction members and me - 4 of them already had flags too. I knew two of them and they took the time out to help me and invite me along. So no, not all of them are bad. Hell, if I could spend the time involved to be a part I would try. But being married and having a full time job and being in the military, I have other responsibilities that come first. In essence, it's not the tag of the guild that I think people are referring to. I think it's the fact that most snide comments just happen to come from people that are at that level (I hope that doesn't come off wrong).

Aaliane Wyndryder
62nd Druidess of Tunare
Mythology
Morell Thule

If Rallos Zek doesn't die to the damage shield of the very last person alive in the zone and that hit knocks that person unconcious, then you used more forces than necessary and you are a zerger. It's simple. Some may zerg more than others but it's merely a matter of degree.

A few of the tier 1 guilds have some real dorks in them though and figure if they, loaded with vex items, can kill something with 50 than 60 is pure zerg. The fact is it takes far more skill when you have 100 tier 2 people who are poorly equipped, missing spells and trying to keep MTs up who have fewer AAs, far less agro generation and a good 1 to 2k fewer HPs and 500 less AC. Tanks needing significantly more healing from clerics who have significantly less mana and manaregen and who are providing much less taunt for the raid. Thats why I really get a kick out of people like Furor sometimes. It's like someone using an invulnerability and unlimited ammo cheat code and being happy about how well they do.

Well, speaking as someone who's been in what most would call an uber guild for nearly all of my 4 years of EQ, I still dont understand.

The difference between a zerg or a not-zerg encounter is simply mindset. If it makes YOU feel better that you accomplished something with fewer people than another group did, then you would label that other group a zerg force.

The fact is, there's no bonus points in-game for doing things that way.

In my previous guild, pre-kunark and through kunark, we took pride in doing things with fewer people than some of the followup guilds were doing. Velious rolled around and that started to mean less, both because the encounters started changing, and because I and my guild were changing. By the time Luclin rolled around, it was obvious that the designers at Verant/SOE didnt care jack about how many people you beat an encounter with, and in fact required large numbers.

But really, I guess it dawned on me that, in the end, someone else doing the same feat under any circumstances does NOT diminish my own sense of accomplishment for having done the same feat. The fact that someone else did it doesnt harm me or detract from me in any way! Quite the contrary, it's a good thing, it allows more people to get a smidgen of enjoyment out of EQ at doing something they havent before. It means a hell of a lot more to them than for me and mine to endlessly farm the same mobs over and over.

If you, or anyone, feels threatened by someone doing the same things you did, then that is really a problem only with you.

And dont make assumptions about Faydedar. That was one of the stupidest most horrid timesink camps ever devised. I was GLAD they changed it, and I was one of the first to have my epic PRE-change. It was stupid the way it was, and the fact that others didnt have to endure that did NOT diminish the fact that I still had my epic.

Tia

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">I remember druids being incensed that he had been trivialised and many felt cheated.</blockquote>

Uh huh, OK. The game CHANGES. If you got so incensed and morally outraged by Faydedar becoming a trigger, you need to get a life. I'm not saying it to be mean, but seriously, early adopters of anything are often screwed pooches who think they have to do it the hard way when actually a quest or an encounter wasn't really appropriately tuned in the first place. But that is no reason to get down on others who benefit from CHANGES.

I never felt cheated by the triggered Faydedar.

Reading this thread gave me a chuckle or two. Honestly, some of you take this game too seriously if you think changes or improvements necessarily cheapen what you have done on your own time and effort.

It comes down to this. If you look down on others for using more numbers or for zerging, and you think they shouldn't be in the next zones, w h o t h e h e l l a r e y o u ? Do you play a computer game to feel superior to others? Does it make you feel good to look down on others? Over stuff that doesn't really exist? Over a game? If this is you -- oh the humanity! -- you should take a look at your own fragile ego.

Huzzah MF...give'em hell, babe...

/covets the oober druid bowler hat

Edit: nevermind, it's not worth it.

Miss Foxfyre said

" If you look down on others for using more numbers or for zerging, and you think they shouldn't be in the next zones, w h o t h e h e l l a r e y o u ? Do you play a computer game to feel superior to others? Does it make you feel good to look down on others? Over stuff that doesn't really exist? Over a game?"

Sadly it is true for a lot of players.

Who says that 2 warriors tanking something with say rusty short swords and killing it is less than an accomplishment than 1 warrior using a switchblade of zek?

SOME ubers like to point out their great and fabulous equipment and then laugh at others who have to make do with less than their VT/SSRA gear. Yet if they can both kill the same mob who cares? Apparantly the ubers do. WHy? Because they are afraid their pristine hunting grounds will be run over.

Some ubers say what are you gonig to do when you get to the elemental planes? You wont have your zerg force then. Well 8 guilds of 25 folks each make up a "zerg force" and where as someone may not go LFG there a small guild of 25 folks can probably successfully raid there.

Some ubers say if you can't do it with 55 then you have no skill , yada yada, Yet some guilds dont have 55 folks and dont want 55 folks. WHy should they be forced to enjoy the Expansion THEY PAID for and not play the game the way they want (without exploiting). After all isnt that what the ubers are doing?

A few months back SOME ubers were saying how they loved the flagging system. It kept the "unskilled players away from them". Now they are decrying the same system becuase the "unskilled players" have found a way to get flagged. The duplicity is amusing and the justifications they try to use is downright laughable.

And for those who have so very much pride in their EQ accomplishments that they are incensed at the travesty of the mass flaggings maybe you should turn off the computer and go for a walk outside and enjoy the fresh air some. There is MUCH more to life than a computer game. Hope you find that out before too much passes you by.

I think Verant has the same perspective as Matafleur, which is why i dont believe theyre happy about mass flaggings. I'd bet if mass flaggings became more commonplace, Verant would have a nerf for it in the next patch. I agree that many Uber players think along those same lines, not just Matafleur. I'm glad that shes at least giving the viewpoint of the other side, and i'm sure many people look down on the mass flaggings more than this thread indicates. There are many others that think the same way that arent speaking up.

EQ is more of a competition for them. Theyre used to racing other guilds for spawns, first kills, etc. etc., its all more of a competetive game at those lvls. High lvl guilds compete against each other constantly. Just read theyre forums, and you'll see bragging about who did what first. They kill flag mobs just to screw the other over, train each other to get dibbs on a mob, etc. Its a really cutthroat game when your talking about High lvl competition, and it revolves around being better than the next person. I do believe players look down on other 'lesser' players which is why they stay exclusive to their guild. People are generally under the belief that people outside their guild are incompetent. And it goes from the top lvl guilds looking down at the next tier guilds, them looking down at the next tier, and so on and so on...

The Flags cater to competition. They allow more exclusiveness for each guild the further they advance(same kinda 'exclusiveness' feeling mentioned earlier before trivializing the epic, or even the 'Shawl Quest' even though its still very difficult). Its considered bragging rights to be the furthest guild into POP on a server. There are more rewards for the ones that advance the fastest and the furthest. Everything Verants done up to this point seems to support thats what they want, and they reward them accordingly with mass loot drops then later nerfs once others have reached those points. Thats why i dont think Verant is too happy about mass flaggings, especially if it became more commonplace and people were doing it for higher tier zones.

The sad thing is Verant has that same Uber mentality imo. I'm sure thats the same game many of them are playing in EQ anyways- the high lvl raiding game where its all about competition.

Thats probably correct Broomhilda. Personally I have a love/hate relationship to flags. They are a gigantic pain in the @#%$ when you need to flag an entire guild and new recruits. But on the other hand the exclusiveness is nice once you finally are in the plane you want to be in.

Its sort of like being in the army, it SUCKS when you are a recruit and forced to crawl through mud, clean weapons, sleep out in the rain, dig holes and stuff. But once you have served your time you are glad you did and feel that you actually accomplished and learned something.

I think that now that VI have improved their network code so much that you can raid with 150+ players and still function, then flag/key schemes are probably one of the only ways you can preserve the competition aspect of EQ, which I personally think alot of people like.

I dont think you can design a mob that can be killed by 50 people that cannot be trivally taken down by 150. And most people I know DONT like 150 people raids, they are laggish(gfx wise) and your individual contribution to the fight is largely irrelevant. People I know like raids up to around 50 people. But when the same mobs can be killed by 150 random pickup people, that lowers the accomplishment feeling you get from killing them.

While pickup mass flag events can take down alot of individual flag mobs, its unlikely that all the same people will be able to attend ALL the raids needed to get a complete set of flags for the elemental planes. So the way I see it the flag system currently works to ensure that most guilds that make it to the elemental planes will have around 50-75 players, and thus be competing on a somewhat equal basis and in that way preserving the competition aspect between guilds that use roughly the same amount of people.

I fully understand that alot of people hate flags, but I also understand why Verant put them there. In the end I think its a business decision which is probably based on 2 things: A) Flags delays the consumption of content, thus making it last longer B) Helps keep the high-end competition intact.

If all zones were made accessible right now, then you tomorrow you would see a 200 person raid killing Zeb(or whoever the head honcho in plane of time is), the loot randomed between participants in the best pickup naggy raid style, and all the members in high-end guilds could just stop playing :p

<strong>If all zones were made accessible right now, then you tomorrow you would see a 200 person raid killing Zeb(or whoever the head honcho in plane of time is), the loot randomed between participants in the best pickup naggy raid style, and all the members in high-end guilds could just stop playing</strong>


The collective raid or alliance raid you describe would, in effect, become the new super-uber guild on the server.

"Its sort of like being in the army"

Hell of a lot closer to fraternity or sorority hazing than army bootcamp.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>People I know like raids up to around 50 people. But when the same mobs can be killed by 150 random pickup people, that lowers the accomplishment feeling you get from killing them. [/quote]
Not at all. In fact I've been disappointed by some of the more uber guilds on my server for bringing 60+ people to an encounter which my less-than-uber guild does with around 15 people.

But hey, if they're getting a communal sense of guild unity by getting all their members participating in an event, more power to them. It doesn't diminish my own sense of accomplishment at all. Honestly, I sympathize with them because they aren't able to come away from that encounter feeling like their individual contributions were greatly significant to their success.

I love knowing that my part made a difference; that what I did as an individual may have actually saved the raid at one point or another. There's little chance I could feel like that in a raid where I was only 1/100th of the equation; so if those folks are willing to sacrifice such an important aspect of reward, I wouldn't dare begrudge them a flag.

As a sidenote, I do agree with those who say a 'mass flagging event' does require skills of a different sort, though I'd make a distinction. Unlike a small guild accomplishing the same encounter because its members worked cohesively based upon the 'skill' of all involved, in these mass events I believe the pertinent skills are coming from leadership much more than the participants. Not saying that's wrong (there's no "wrong" way to play) ... simply pointing out what the difference is.

~Firemynd

First, I'd like to say outstanding job on what you've done with a random group of people. While the number is a tad large, it's still quite a feet. Reminds me back in the Kunark days, when I used to lead Pickup Vox Raids and Naggy raids to help get scales or something for a guild member. Seeing as I was to high to fight as well as my guild, I had to rely on using a open raid to do such things. But still, those wins are great when you can pull such groups together and achieve things such as this. So Kudo's definitly.

If we really look at alot of pre-elemental encounters, you can see that alot of them can really be overcome by a large force or zerg like tactics. These mobs may have high damage output, but they do have low hp. So that, the real tactic can be to make the mob hp<0 before your hp<0. So large pickup forces like this, can really succeed. But there are encounters, where even with large numbers, it will require a more hefty strategy in over to overcome the encounter.

When these Pickup Flag groups reach encounters such as CoD High Priest, Bertox Ring, Angarr, and Rallos Zek. The idea that huge numbers can win, will fall off drastically. If this kind of group is able to get past these encounters, super kudos.

Also, as the leader of a Vex Thal able guild, ranked within the top 4 on my server. I can safely say that events such as this wouldn't really bother me on my server. And I don't think most of the uber guilds would really be largely bothered by this either. From my perspective, alot of the pre-elemental plane encounters were designed in a manner to be challenging, but annoying. So that, if a guild didn't need to get flags from said encounters, they wouldn't really want to sit there and farm it to block others. This is very obvious pattern, atleast on my server.

But in the end, I'm not concerned about these type of groups because of the way the encounters get more and more difficult as you progress higher in progression matrix. And there will be a point where they just don't work.

I dont read FoH's site regularly, but decided to check it out. I came across this related thread, and was actually surprised at some of the opinions....

www.fohguild.org/forums/s...genumber=1 (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?s=8165031aca28243a134f27bb99a74da1&threadid=5616&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)


I was expecting them to talk about how lame the mass flaggings are, but many of them seemed to defend the reasons for doing it. They blame itemization in the 1-3 tier zones as the reason why everyones in a rush to advance. I agree in some ways. When i experience these days it just feels like mindless exp'ing with little to no rewards. Thats why i hate exp'ing now more than ever, there is nothing to look forward to really other than AA pts. I log on half the time these days to see if any raids are going on, then camp out if not. I'm just so burned out of AA exp'ing with no other rewards.

I disagree with them in that i still consider spectral scrolls as valuable loot. However you can spend 4 hours in BoT, and have nobody come away with a spectral. You can spend 6 hours, and have 1 person come away with a spectral in a 6 person group. I've been in a few BoT groups, and we rarely come away with a decent spectral rate. I think the max we ever came out of a BoT exp group was 3 spectrals and that was like a whole day of exp'ing there.

I disagree with them however that loot is the main motivation in mass flaggings. I think its more or less the funneling the last poster described, and people just want to be able to experience in other new zones. Most people really enjoy a new place- a change of scenery. But Verants retarded design has funneled players into 3-5 zones their beat to death with, and not many others that are viable hunting grounds anymore.

The one thing i agree with them most on is the person that does itemization/loot tables for SoE needs to be fired because hes clearly very poor at what he does. The imbalanced loot tables, along with the lack of reward in some tiers can really turn exp grouping into something pointless you do everyday, and eventually ask yourself "why do i play this game if i just do the same xp'ing day in and day out with little to no rewards?" I mean its not like its fun, its more a chore to advance. Its fun if you actually get something out of doing that chore instead of the same longterm AA goals :P When i xp these days i actually go into it now thinking i wont be getting loot, and its just another mindless xp session. After so long of the same mindless xp sessions it just burns you out if you rarely see, if ever any rewards that you will actually use and want.

More power to you Panamah. Who cares what people think about your tactics or whether or not they're right or wrong. This is a game, you're enjoying it and personally, I'm envious that you get to see more of the game than I do at this point ;) If I had the chance, I'd join up with you guys too.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As a sidenote, I do agree with those who say a 'mass flagging event' does require skills of a different sort, though I'd make a distinction. Unlike a small guild accomplishing the same encounter because its members worked cohesively based upon the 'skill' of all involved, in these mass events I believe the pertinent skills are coming from leadership much more than the participants. Not saying that's wrong (there's no "wrong" way to play) ... simply pointing out what the difference is.[/quote]

No one can argue that a small group of players who play together a lot can develop a sort of gestalt that is inarguably awesome and fun and they can do some cool things. Probably a lot of the people on these large open raids have experienced that, I know I have. We wouldn't be doing these large raids if we could do them with our little gestalt groups, but we're just not strong enough like that, unfortunately.

However, the large raids use the same tactics your smaller ones do. We don't just charge in, nuke full blast, ping pong and do it totally undisciplined. We setup groups for doing certain tasks (heals, kiting adds, etc) and operate just like anyone else does. Because we have a lot more people to communicate with it can be very difficult. I have to repeat things over several times because someone maybe afk or momentarily distracted by a buff request or whatever.

Probably the most undeserved reputation the large raids have is that they're zergs. I keep asking people to define zerg for me but no one can seem to. To me a zerg is everyone goes in, with little to no plan and nukes like mad and almost everyone dies. Sort of like Liliputians against Gulliver, using sheer numbers to take him down.

Truthfully, few guilds I've heard of or seen in action execute all that elegantly. I've been in one guild that did get to the point where they were getting extremely good at the hard stuff like aggro control and positioning. But from what I hear from my ex-guildies, their new high-level raiding guilds they've joined are very inelegant and don't execute well. They just pack a lot of punch.

For Rydda'Dar our plan kind of badly unraveled when the MT died and the dragon was around 20%. It's just about impossible to switch the heals to another tank because they die too fast. The damage output of that dragon is unbelievable. But we had 2 CoD guards to tank him. They died to enrage but Rydda was close enough to death that a few remaining nukers could finish it off. I'd probably modify our healing strategy for next time and use more CoD guards if I could, those boys were useful!

FYI A Zerg(ling) is from Starcraft, and the tactic known as a Zergling rush where the one particular race just builds a bunch of these units right off the bat with little concern for infrastructure and sends them in to the other person's base. There's no skill involved, and it's pretty much pure luck as to whether you succeed or not with the assault.

Hence the term, zerg rush.

Which is, of course, derived from the Tank Rush of the C&C era... but nm!

Working in a computer game store for years and years you pick these things up 8P

Tia

The small fact that has never been touched on in reading all these posts. I am surprised Pana didn't mention it. Well she did indirectly. 200 people were not required by Alliance to kill Grummus. Pana is all inclusive in her raids with regards to flagging. We could have done Grummus with probably the single raid setup of 72 people. She put herself through the torture of organizing 200 people simply because anyone that wanted to participate did participate. I admire her for this as any other leader would say screw this and play elitist and pick only lvl 65 with a certain amount off AA and level of gear as it would have been much easier to manage. Which is essential what Tier 1 guilds do.

Behemoth we only used 107 and that is a more difficult encounter than Grummus. This had nothing to do with elitism it had to do with major lag in POI and smaller margin for error. 350 people showed to the raid 240 something waited in tranq to come in to get flagged. We pulled the rat to zone in and invited all that wanted flags into the raid to get flagged. This was Pana's direct slap in the face of SoE and their bull**** flagging system. I applaud her for this.

We've done AD twice. The very first Alliance raid was AD we had maybe one of the largest wipes in EQ history moving from zone in to the Dragon lair door. :evil: We recovered got everyone there rez'd buffed and slapped the @#%$ out of a dragon and flagged 100-150 people to HoH. Then did it again recently with little incident.

I missed out on the hohb flagging due to work and family obligations so no comment.

The bulk of the Alliance raids are people from tier 2 guilds. Any 2 of these guilds could combine to do the flagging with less forces than the Alliance raids but due to competitiveness and politics it isn't going to happen. Pana has united age old (in EQ terms) enemies to band together to overcome a very poor gaming system. She is a blessing to Drinal is all I can say.

As for all the remarks I've seen regarding having proper gear to fight in tier 3. What a joke. Potact, HoH, CoD, and the non tower areas of Bot are far easier to fight in that PoV or Pos. I am a cleric and can speak in terms of actual mana required, frequency, types of heals (ch vs get caught with your pants down using fast small chain heals), and duration of the fights. This is such complete and utter bull**** spewed forth from the elitists who got there first. After a month of playing around in Tactics and BoT (hoh is easy but bores me to death) its clear to see they didn't want anyone but the top 1 or 2 guilds invading their farm.

I remember after the very first raid as we zoned into HoH one of Mr Trevizes finest /ooc's "Way to zerg your way into hoh be proud of yourselves" or some such drivel. It was sarcastic and clearly meant to piss on our parade. Honestly I think the bull**** some of these people spew strengthened Pana's resolve to buck the system and the politics and slam it in their face not to mention get herself flagged to play in the big boys sandbox. Maybe you shoulda just kept your mouth shut. Beware a woman on a mission

Very well put :)

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">It was sarcastic and clearly meant to piss on our parade.</blockquote>

Well, they can say whatever they want in defense of flagging and segregation. They can keep trying to convince SOE to nerf flags down. Some of them even refer to us as communists or proponents of communist philosophy although they have no frigging clue what it means to have lived in a communist country. They clearly need to get a life. :)

And in other news:

We took down Zelnilak (spelling, mob in UP) this afternoon with 2 groups of people. We had 1 death.

CALL THE UBER POLICE we are obviously exploiting and doing this encounter with a zerg force. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. We have personally caused the downfall of EQ. We have slapped every guild in the face that did this with less than 2 groups. We are obviously exploiting the encounter. The designers never meant for this many folks to work in tandem to take down that mob. Yes, woe is us, it is all our fault that we totally gimped the enconter. Oh the pain, THE AGOONNYYYY. We should hold our head in shame. Our grandchildren's grandchildren will never be able to live down the disgrace that we have put upon them.

Pindk

CoD is Teir 2.
Tactics is Teir 2 with a Teir 3 encounter tossed in (RZ) since they scrapped PoW.
Grats you for being able to hunt the zonelines of HOH and BoT however!!

As for comments in reguards to zerglings being able to exp/group in teir 3 zones.. not everyone is equally equiped in the Zerg Army or as well suited. Some of them people are in some pretty decent guilds and have the levels/some good equipment and will do OK.
Problem lies with all these extra bots and these level 52-54ish people you let slide in for flags after the flag mobs where dead. Why you people would choose to allow 100 people and bots who where not even involved and did not even contribute to your kill slide in for flags is beyond my comprehension. Its one thing to share a zone like Tactics with a group of your peers, its another to have it totally destroyed and train ridden by a bunch of people who do not belong their at all, just because you feal its a nice jesture and necessary to flag everyone under the sun. Hint: They put a flag requirement on it for a reason... they want you to prove you have a certain amount of skills and that you are competent enough to be there.
This game has always had paths of progression.. and character flags of sorts(Keys/required levels) that where required to gain access to zones, PoP is only slightly different with its Flags. Sony basically said this was going to be an expansion with encounters that required sound tactics to win. If your telling me that they endorse Zerg raids of 150-200 for getting level 52 and up characters flagged for their Teir 3 zones, I think your sorely mistaken. I am sure their was some thought/reasoning behind them limiting their raid group size to 72.
As for CiH and others feeding you tactics and supporting you... Of COURSE they are going to.. it does not hurt/impact their play at all. You did not ruin their PoT experience groups, your people are not training them or spamming the OOC or whatnot in their zones. Guess, what... they have moved on and don't really give a damn what you do behind them as long as they can slide in and get their recuits and members backflags. They guilds that are bothered are the ones that are NOT the Ubar guilds, but the ones who are making an honest attempt at progression as designed, and are gettin surpassed or swarmed by persons who are basically cheeting their way thru the game and basically skipped the Whole Luclin expansion altogether to Zerg the new content.

-Sin

Yeah, the nerve of some people wanting to see some of the content they paid for!

Tia

Well, I paid and played Diablo at one time.. and so did all the other people who paid and Duped/Cheated and ruined that game. You can look at it any way you want.. but you did not Pay to be in the EQ endgame.. and noone should be there who doesnt put forth the time and effort required to get there.

-Sin

Damn: I must have paid for a full set of Bidil's Armor.. WTF is it... I was robbed I tell yah.. robbed!

Well I could make the very same case for Joe Schmoe Uberguild member, who afk's a lot during a raid, hits attack once in a while to show he's awake, hails all the right mobs, gets the loot, takes a day off now and then and gets guildmates to flag him.

Then there's Cindy Tradeskiller Casual Guildmember, puts in all sorts of time doing tradeskills, spending time in small groups, helping people, activities which generally require active participation.

So each toon has got lots of time, yet the effort put in is quite different. And please, if you've never met my Joe Schmoe example, you've never been in an uberguild. Yet Joe will soon have access to the entire expansion, due to the effort mostly of people that are not him. Cindy on the other hand will not, no matter how hard she tries, she cannot get access to a lot of pop because she doesnt know the right people, or doesnt want to suck up to an uberguild, or simply refuses to leave her friends behind.

I agree that there is and should be a reward for time invested in the game. That reward before pop was access to nice loot. But with pop, that reward is access to new content. That's messed up. That's what we paid rl money for.

Tia

Edited, since I have no clue what is offensive these days, I removed it all.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>. Its one thing to share a zone like Tactics with a group of your peers~[/quote]

Share? Since when did this expansion's content -- or the game's content for that matter -- become the property of you or any one segment of the population?

Ever squeeze through the underwater crevice in that Paineel pond to enter The Hole? Of course you did, rather than buy a key. Should others be up in arms because they spent platinum on something you gained for free?

Ever go away from keyboard for a few moments without disbanding from group, and thereby gained some Exp from a few kills toward which you didn't directly contribute? Of course you have. Should those who were in your group be upset because you didn't earn the Exp you gained?

Players may use any means at their disposal to gain access to content, and unless they're purposely exploiting a bug, they're doing absolutely nothing wrong.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>~ its another to have it totally destroyed and train ridden by a bunch of people who do not belong their at all, just because you feal its a nice jesture and necessary to flag everyone under the sun. [/quote]

Who are you to decide who "belongs" in a zone? Hell you can't even conjugate a verb, and somehow YOU got in there. And I'm sure you didn't get flagged all by yourself ... <em>please</em> tell us you soloed your way to every flag your character possesses, so we can call you a lying asswad troll and be done with you.

Sorry for my tone, but people like BDEyes are the reason some animals eat their young.

~Firemynd

What Cindy Tradeskiller has going for her if all she does is work the trades is a Crap load of Plat... and with Plat, Cindy can buy a crapload of excellent gear/weaponry (Much of which comes from POP). Its her choice to move along that path... and her own fault/reward for where she is in game. She should not just be given access to advanced content just because she chooses to spend her days with the Trades. She should not be given access to Teir 3 - 4 - 5 content just because she choses to stay with her current guild/friends and do tradeskill stuff all day long. With the money she makes, she should have no problem equiping herself and her friends well.. and perhaps, if they choose.. they might go out and actually try taking out harder content and growing along that route rather then hanging on the coat tails of others.
As for Joe Schmoe, everyone might do that to some extent from time to time... rarely do I see my guildmates doing that on a first time encounter however and if they think they can coast while their guildmates are working hard to expand/grow/explore new content.. well, perhaps they need to be given the boot. I am not a strong believer in letting anyone coast in anything. IRL or in game. If everyone simply can plunk down $20 a month to have access to all content, access to the same gear, access to the skills.. whats the point in doing any of it at all.

-Sin

Fun?

Tia

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Share? Since when did this expansion's content -- or the game's content for that matter -- become the property of you or any one segment of the population?
~Firemynd[/quote]

Everyone shares EQ content... I dont get your point at all. I might not like it, but I am forced to share my space where it may be in EQ with anyone else who has access to the same space/zones I am in.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ever go away from keyboard for a few moments without disbanding from group, and thereby gained some Exp from a few kills toward which you didn't directly contribute? Of course you have. Should those who were in your group be upset because you didn't earn the Exp you gained?
~Firewynd[/quote]

Everyone AFKs and leeches an insignifigant amount of experience from time to time. Its a trade off. If you are someone who is in one of my groups and you take advantage of the situation however and continually go AFK and suck the groups experience... well, then hell yah people are going to be upset and people are going to be looking for your replacement.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Who are you to decide who "belongs" in a zone? Hell you can't even conjugate a verb, and somehow YOU got in there. And I'm sure you didn't get flagged all by yourself ... please tell us you soloed your way to every flag your character possesses, so we can call you a lying asswad troll and be done with you.
~Firemynd[/quote]

Verant/Sony decided... thats why they put the flag restriction on the zone in the first place. So everyone in the EQ community did not have access. Oh, and just because you can gimp your way into certain areas in EQ.. this doesnt mean you should or its not cheating the system. Think of this as GFlux across the chasm in HS just so you can bypass 1/4 of the zone content. Zerging content in PoP is bypassing 1/4 of EQs game content.

-Sin

I am also from CiH on Drinal and I love what Pana is doing. It warms my heart to see someone doing this. and I smile to myself when I see "51rogue LFG" in PoTac.

I have heard that on test server they put a 72flag limit on the projection. but thats ok if you set up weakly raids for the various mobs then just keep cycling through them. eventualy it will become a common thing to go on the mondayAD raid or the wendesday's PoI raid then you can flag who everyone eventualy.

Hope to see you in the Elemental planes /hug

Puuh...

First of all I find the "I paid as much as you did so I deserve to see it all!" rather hilarious.

There are plenty of things where you pay money to take part, yet might be denied even a greater portion of content than in EQ.

Lets say a tennis cup. You probably get to pay some sort of nominal fee (all EQ expansion prices are what I'd consider nominal) to participate unless you're invited or something. So there's say, 32 players, which means 5 theoretical games. I bet the 16 people who lose on the first round are OUTRAGED that they never got to take part in more than one game. Or maybe the winner pays 5x more, his final opponent 4x etc.

Now you can say EQ is not a competitive game like a tennis tournament obviously is. I'm not really sure where you got that idea from. I didn't notice it saying anything about that on the EQ box atleast, or on any of the expansion boxes either.



Oh and about zerging... I bothered doing a minor mathemathical example of what I consider clear zerging, and why it's lame. Going to use Rallos Zek as an example.

Pit Rallos hits for 4x1415 or so every 1.5 sec. Now I'm going to err on the safe side and say that given totally free reign he'd kill a person every 2 seconds (which is greatly exaggerated, but the rampages and ripostes might bring the number to between 2 and 3 seconds, but lets work with 2 to avoid whining).

N = original number of people engaging RZ
d = average dps of member
t = time

Someone dying every 2sec means that the time of death for the last person -> t = 2N.
How many seconds will you have people alive during the fight? N*2N/2, which is N^2. The damage you can dish out in this time is dN^2 of course... (meaning NONE gets healed at all)

Now pit RZ at least used to have 1 million hitpoints, and looking at the time it takes us to kill it, our average member does bit below 60dps (this is spread across all the guild, obviously some people are not doing any damage at all).

Lets assume people are intelligent enough not to kite. IE everyone is just at the limit of RZs melee range so that even if they get agro, RZ won't move... the zerg especially should do this if you look at the numbers coming bit later.

My opinion is that if you get a mob to 80% or lower without ANY attempt to heal, you are zerging. Others might say the actual percentage is as low as 50% though getting something to 50% with 0 heals is pretty huge, and I hope people will agree on that.

So lets look at the numbers for 'uberguild X', 20% zerg, 50% zerg and 100% zerg. I'm assuming every guild will have 10 people on things not directly linked to RZ. To give the non-ubers benefit of the doubt due to weaker equipment etc, I'll calculate their average dps as 50 vs the uberguilds 60.
Uberguild:
50 people, 40 of them engage:
60*40^2 = 96 000 hp of damage before they wipe
That's 9.6% damage
50*N^2 = 200 000 -> N = 62,25... lets round that up to 63. Add the 10 to that and you're at 73, might as well call that 75. 75+ and in my eyes you're zerging atleast.

50*N^2 = 500 000 -> N = 100, which means 110 people. This should be zerging by anyones standards.

50*N^2 = 1 000 000 -> N = 141,42... lets round that up to 142 and add the 10 to get 152. At this point if you all are close enough that there's no risk of kiting, you can not avoid killing it even with 0 heals.


Basically what most people don't seem to realize that assuming deaths, the damage you dish out isn't linear, but a bigger force does exponentially more damage. Jump from a 55man to 152man isn't even triple in numbers, but damage done to RZ went from 9.6% to 100%...

Low number of hp on boss mobs + high number of PCs = trivialized content.

Velious and Luclin content had too high hitpoints to be really zerged, and Kunark didn't have serverfilters so LDs prevented this sort of overwhelming power from being effective. Now there's absolutely nothing stopping it, and I think that is most definitely a bad thing for the game. If you don't agree then fine, but where is the challenge supposed to be if clerics don't have to even mem heals but can rather nuke and it won't matter even a bit.

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

If that's what you think zerging is, then rest easy. Panamah's raids are not zerging.

I thought they had 100+ people there? Of course they heal some, but the fact is they don't even have to do that at most mobs.

RZ also has a lot of hp in PoP, most will have significantly less so the "kill it before it kills you" working without healing requires less numbers against mobs such as: Bertox, Terris Thule, Aerin'Dar, Mith Marr etc. Some have sufficient AE dps that a zerg doesn't totally trivialize them (thank god for that!), but still... extra damage makes the fights exponentially shorter, which removes a great many complications (tank swaps, tank losing defensive etc).

Again: I wasn't saying they just pile on the mob, but since even that would win, calling the victory an accomplishment is something of an exaggeration.

Oh yea not just anyone can organize such hordes, this much is true, but I'm quite certain most uberguilds could get 300 lvl 60+ people to show for some serverwide firsts np enough, and even organize them rather efficiently. Thank god none has taken that route yet to gain some sort of serverwide recognition.

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Even if Panamah's raids *were* zerging, I say screw anyone who thinks they have the moral high ground in a world of 0s and 1s. Personally I think Panamah is doing a GREAT service, and if she were on my server I would probably be playing this game other to log on and do tradeskills for my friends before my account runs out in April.

Guys, these people think they are <em>better than you</em> because they have more flags, more loot, a different guild, or a myriad of other reasons. People like this need to get a life.

If you are so worried that Joe Schmoe in smallguild01 is going to get on even footing with you that you rant on message boards to make them feel inferior, or ooc insults when they first zone into an area they never thought they would get to in their gaming lifetime... pfft.

Have you ever thought these are people behind the keyboard, people with feelings? Why don't you cheer them on? Why be the zone nazi in a virtual world?

I would daresay Panamah is working tons harder for her zones than anyone in an "uberguild." Ubers have worked together for longer so they know each other better. Anyone who has ever led a pickup raid knows that it is chaotic. She probably has a core of people who know what they are doing and adds in people who want to go.

Panamah is the patron saint of casual players. Congratulations on your awesome accomplishments Panamah. Your spot on AFK island misses you.

/hug Panamah

Lol... lose the silver spoon Sinjun

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>CoD is Teir 2.
Tactics is Teir 2 with a Teir 3 encounter tossed in (RZ) since they scrapped PoW.
Grats you for being able to hunt the zonelines of HOH and BoT however!!
[/quote]

How would you know where someone is hunting in these zones based on how they got it in? If he did the quest alternative to get in would that make him able to kill so much more in the zone? I have a friend who's the same lvl of play (as in guild tier wise) as pindk who does the same @#%$ as an enchanter from the top guild on our server...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why you people would choose to allow 100 people and bots who where not even involved and did not even contribute to your kill slide in for flags is beyond my comprehension[/quote]

B/c it gets them flagged, it make them happy, and lets Pan feel good by helping others get around an obstacle she doesn't agree with. And who's to judge the lvl of contribution ppl make during a raid? Those ppl who for instance waited outside poi to get flagged did not get a chance to contribute b/c the max attendance was already met... would it have been so much better if they went in added to lag and contributed a measly amount of dps (I'd assume the non dps roles would have already been met)? Or would you say they still contributed dick all and don't deserve the flag? How much of a definative contribution do you make on raids? Especially when I'm pretty sure you're part of a guild that allies itself with another guild that normally combine to around 60person raid force.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hint: They put a flag requirement on it for a reason... they want you to prove you have a certain amount of skills and that you are competent enough to be there. [/quote]

Then why did they add the alternate quest methods (of which Verant has stated that they are looking at difficulty off - the statement I read sounded like they were going to make them as slow or tedious)

And to say the ppl who attend raids like this don't have skills is complete BS... it means one thing I mostly found their guilds as a whole aren't at that stage but they would much rather be loyal. Do those skills shine thru when you have a raid force of 100+? Not at all.. can you say your skills make such a defining contribution on your raids? Especially when CT/WL raids with what the guilds above you would often consider large numbers?

And also didn't your guild send ppl along on some of these raids to get flagged? Why didn't they go and earn it the hard way? Pretty sure the answer is convience... the exact same reason ppl attend one of these raids to get flagged instead of tracking for rare_mob03 every half hour to get 1/4 of quest component or whatever.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>They guilds that are bothered are the ones that are NOT the Ubar guilds, but the ones who are making an honest attempt at progression as designed, and are gettin surpassed or swarmed by persons who are basically cheeting their way thru the game [/quote]

With the exception of hohb every zone Pan and co. has lead a raid on has an alternative quest to get access to that plane... ppl are not skipping content here... they're skipping bottleneck quests to get to exp zones that *gasp* they can handle.

Yes of course you well get some ppl slip thru the gates that can't handle it but do you honestly think ppl are stupid enough to continue exping in a zone if every other train is a pull or wipe? All this does is move the filtration to the actual zone.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>just because she choses to stay with her current guild/friends and do tradeskill stuff all day long. With the money she makes, she should have no problem equiping herself and her friends well.. and perhaps, if they choose.. they might go out and actually try taking out harder content and growing along that route rather then hanging on the coat tails of others.[/quote]

0.o /boggle ... wtf!?! hanging of the coat tails of others? What's Cindy Tradeskiller's other option there if she wants new content since that path is obviously very moraly wrong? If she left her old guild and friends (or took her favorite friends with her and leave her old guild for @#%$) and went and joined a higher tier guild is she going out and doing things on her own or wouldn't she be riding that higher tier guilds coat tails?

And how about that guild... I'm not sure if CT/WL has any gear/flag/key/aa requirements but I'm sure as @#%$ that if they recruit someone in full hot gear from a tier 1/2 guild it wasn't them who got that new recruit that gear.

So what? It's ok for higher tier guilds to benefit from the work lower tier ones put into upgrading their members but it's so @#%$ wrong for lower tier guilds to band together to get a task done instead of letting them selves fall apart b/c of stupidly imposed obstacles?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>thats why they put the flag restriction on the zone in the first place. So everyone in the EQ community did not have access[/quote]

Again... so far every zone other than hohb has a side quest that would allow the same access.. and don't be too surprised if verant makes these quests a bit easier in the future too.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Oh, and just because you can gimp your way into certain areas in EQ.. this doesnt mean you should or its not cheating the system[/quote]

While I'm not saying 200+ ppl doesn't trivialize an encounter who draws the line on what's legit? Wasn't too long ago I remember the top guild calling your guild's attempt at the emp a zerg... were they in the right to say you guys didn't belong in VT? Why do you feel you're son in the right to say that to other ppl about pop zones?

Great sig, Kinare!

This thread continues to deteriorate, IMO.

When will people realize that this is a virtual world, not a real one? Achievements in Norrath have some relation to real life skills, but only some. You can't compare it a game of tennis for many reasons.

When did this game become all PvP (or maybe GvG)? Last time I checked on my server, I wasn't playing against guildX, I was killing mobX. I thought it was about people overcoming virtual monsters....guess I was wrong.

If there is someone who earns a living from being a player in EQ, please let me know. If Nike or Ford or ATT have started sponsoring guilds, let me know where I can sign up. When is the next raid going to be televised? When are all the guys who play in the top guilds going to start dating Britney Spears or something?

Other people that play this game don't deserve scorn, unless they can't learn how to get along with others. Who are these small-minded people who are so self-important that its painful for them to share their toys with anyone who appears to be a member of the unwashed masses? Its sickening to me. I hope your mothers taught you better and you come yo your senses.

It is no one's fault that SOE made PoP the way they did, and that they made it so small and that its now so crowded, and that this LoY thing will have no content for the 60+ crowd by all reports. Instead of trying to keep people out, we should be banding together to ask for more playing room. More revamped zones, more content for the people. You can't keep people out. You can't have the world to yourself. And in this virtual world, where nothing anyone does impacts your REAL income, social status or anything else...WHY would you want to?

Oops came out as bit overly long perhaps.


This is what I always find rather hilarious about these arguments. Higher tier players obviously spend way too much time on this, they base all their self esteem on the game, they think they're better than everyone else and take everything too seriously.

Do people even THINK before they start spouting off this stuff. Lets take it out of EQ content so you can think more objectively.

I happen upon a curling hall. I have played curling twice, though one of those was drunk. Lets say I think I could use some more experience. Now I'm sort of idly intressed in the game and join some sort of club (I doubt there's curling clubs even in Canada, but stay with me) where there are some real olympic level players.

If you do really well scorewise (or accuracy test or whatever), you get to play on the "olympic trainee hall" or whatever, which you don't have to reserve etc and can train in for longer since obviously they dedicate more time to it etc. Now I'm pissed. Wtf I paid for access to this place and they are getting some sort of special hall because they're more dedicated... how dare they. Oh yea the fee was rather nominal so the money is hardly even noticeable for me, but it's the @#%$ principle. Highway robbers ffs! So what do I do? I realize there's no limit on who you can have on your team, so I somehow bribe someone from the olympic team (it differs bit here, but I don't think you can 'zerg' curling) and with him in the team, everyone else gets through and then the next time the olympic team shows up, we're messing around in the "for dedicated players" area.

Seriously why not let them play there? They put in the time, they clearly want something more from the whole sport than I do. Do I call them no lifers? I guess I would have a rather valid case. Even EQ is more complex than spending hours upon hours sliding a stone on ice. When one of the olympic players sighs about having waited 2h for us to bungle around on the only field available (and previously reserved for them due to their higher playing time... they are good marketing for the club after all, so some special services are available), should I launch in to a rant about how they think they're better than we are and they should get a life?

Sorry but my ego isn't that fragile. I see no reason to think that the olympic team thinks they're "better" than me. Why the **** would they think that? They probably know they are better at me in curling. Not because I am physically and mentally inferior to them, but because they have more dedication and experience. I don't feel insulted by it, I might feel a bit amused at their choice of hobby perhaps, but why should I care more than that?

Of course, I understand that me or my friends might be bit snappish if some of those olympic players came to mock us playing at the normal fields... unfortunately the few idiots like that would make it easy to think all the dedicated players are arrogant asses, but I'd like to consider myself wise enough to avoid doing that.

The case is rather similar in EQ atleast from my point of view. Damn right I am more efficient in the game than most of you, but what's that to you? If you feel that is a
diss toward who you are in RL, you are paranoid to say the least and YOU are the one taking it way too @#%$ seriously.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Even if Panamah's raids *were* zerging, I say screw anyone who thinks they have the moral high ground in a world of 0s and 1s.[/quote]

It's just as justified as taking a moral highground anywhere else (which is rather questionable in most circumstances btw). What sort of a loser complains about his friend shouting "out" in tennis even when it's a foot inside his borders. It is a GAME and he shouldn't take it so seriously!!! Most things you do in life affect things less than the 1s and 0s in Everquest I would have to say, simply because the 1s and 0s happen to have a way bigger audience.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Guys, these people think they are better than you because they have more flags, more loot, a different guild, or a myriad of other reasons. People like this need to get a life. [/quote]

<em>Edited: There's no reason to personally attack anyone. Keep it civil</em>

Of course, if you start ranking everquest characters in such manners, you look at it from a powergaming point of view already. If you are a casual player, why on earth would you give a damn?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Have you ever thought these are people behind the keyboard, people with feelings? Why don't you cheer them on? Why be the zone nazi in a virtual world? [/quote]

Uh peoples feelings get hurt if they don't access to some zones? I mean, 1s and 0s on some server probably thousands of miles away. You really need to decide your stance with this serious/not serious thing. I honestly think that anyone who feels seriously emotional distress over not getting to the elemental planes should take a break from the game instead of driving on harder. Why don't I cheer them on? They are potentially ruining my enjoyment of the game, and on RN at least I can list about 300 other players who would be extremely displeased about it. Guess these 300+ people don't mean anything? (since Kinare is from RN, I can list them as Ascent, Dol Amroth, Echoes in Eternity, Arirang and Anthology)



-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent">www.ascentguild.com">Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet [/i]

All I can say is my 60th necro was flagged for HoH thru Panamah's raid and 2 guildmates were flagged for CoD and the one from PoI (drawing a balnk at the moment shrug).
I could easily be 62 or even 63 now but after grinding thru 58 and 59 in a week I am sorta burned out on it and enjoying my AAs. I am flagged for PoS, PoV, HoH, and almost finished with the CoD quest. Am I in there training ppl? no. I dont even go to the zones unless friends are on because I know I have about 2% chance of finding a group at 60. Having the flags though allows me to do things with friends that are flagged and a group of us can kill things just fine there. May take us a little longer but we have fun and we arent killing anyone.

Yisdaben 60 Necro
Sadfellow 57 druid
High Council of Norrath
--Drinal--

Just a note, please keep this civil. There's no reason to start any name calling or tell someone how stupid they are because you don't agree with them.

BDEYES wrote

"Its one thing to share a zone like Tactics with a group of your peers, its another to have it totally destroyed and train ridden by a bunch of people who do not belong their at all"

Nice elitist attitude there. I am there so screw everyone else that wants to get there unless I approve of how they did it.

"They guilds that are bothered are the ones that are NOT the Ubar guilds, but the ones who are making an honest attempt at progression as designed, and are gettin surpassed or swarmed by persons who are basically cheeting their way thru the game and basically skipped the Whole Luclin expansion altogether to Zerg the new content."

Who says their attempt wasn't honest. SOE hasn't brought the servers for an emergency patch to change this. SOE hasn't said a word on this. If they were cheating then they would be banned. Only a select few say they are cheating. People get powerlvled up to lvl 46 (and stay in original content to do so) and get into PoP so by your theory they totally trivialized SOL, ROK and SOV. In addition, did SOE mean for them to be able to get to lvl 46 in less than 3 days played? A lot of the uber players have their lower lvl 50s and high lvl 40s characters flagged on their raids. Did SOE mean for that to happen? Those characters by your definition didn't EARN their way in. Are lvl 1's supposed to be running around with jade maces? Did SOE mean for that to happen? Get out your crystal ball and tell me what the next 6 numbers are for powerball why don't you. YOu will be a lot closer to that that stuff in game and who knows you may get that right.

"She should not be given access to Teir 3 - 4 - 5 content just because she choses to stay with her current guild/friends and do tradeskill stuff all day long"

Why? Because YOU SAID SO??? Do you work for SOE? Are you the master of the game? GET THE HELL OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND GET YOUR NOSE OUT OF THE AIR!!!

"Who are you to decide who "belongs" in a zone? Hell you can't even conjugate a verb, and somehow YOU got in there. And I'm sure you didn't get flagged all by yourself ... please tell us you soloed your way to every flag your character possesses, so we can call you a lying asswad troll and be done with you.
~Firemynd "

"Verant/Sony decided... thats why they put the flag restriction on the zone in the first place. So everyone in the EQ community did not have access. Oh, and just because you can gimp your way into certain areas in EQ.. this doesnt mean you should or its not cheating the system"

SOE hasn't done squat to the folks who were flagged. THey haven't said a word about it. YOU, however, are trying to impose your rules on the game. Go get a job as CEO of SOE and maybe your rules will count for something. Again SOE hasn't said it was cheating, exploiting or anything. Only those who feel this wasn't done THEIR way feel that way. Take your ELITEST attitude and go home.

"Of course, I understand that me or my friends might be bit snappish if some of those olympic players came to mock us playing at the normal fields... unfortunately the few idiots like that would make it easy to think all the dedicated players are arrogant asses, but I'd like to consider myself wise enough to avoid doing that."


But isnt that what your doing? Your belittling theyre accomplishment by calling it 'a zerg' which clearly is a negative remark inferring that they cheated or did it the lame way. Youre the one from the olympic team going down to the normal fields and coming across as the 'arrogant @#%$'(not name calling, you said it). Remember, the idea that it was a 'zerg' is your opinion. Other people dont consider it a zerg, but your the one that wants to rain on theyre party/accomplishment by demeaning it.
--------------------------------------

""The case is rather similar in EQ atleast from my point of view. Damn right I am more efficient in the game than most of you, but what's that to you? If you feel that is a
diss toward who you are in RL, you are paranoid to say the least and YOU are the one taking it way too @#%$ seriously."

Its a 'diss' towards any player, because in effect you think your better than they are of which you stated point blank. Your attitude shows it as well. Now what makes you better? More or less the time your able to spend in EQ as oppposed to the next person. So you can go further and reach some conclusions based on those facts.

Like i said before, i dont think your the only one. I think alot, or a good portion of Uber/high lvl players look down on other 'lesser' players. I think they have the same mentality you do. Thats why i'm not a big fan of Uber players as it is, because whereever you go, they always think its THEIR playground and that theyre entitled to more than everyone else. I've had so many experiences where Uber groups/guilds disrespect camps, people, guilds, zones, etc. because of their belief of entitlement to everything, and the mentality that they are better than everyone else so the rules most people abide by out of respect for others dont apply to them.

I still remember all the Uber wizzy's and druids quading in PoN and PoD training everyone and arguing with the zone in /ooc that its theyre fault for getting in the way. Whats ironic is those same Ubers moved on to the next tiers, and once other less uber players start filtering in, they say something about how there will be tons of training newbs now. When POP first came out and everyone was packed into the first tier planes, the ones i saw training the most were my servers Uber guild Wizzy's and Druids, and not caring in the least bit that they were getting new rezzed killed at the GY. Again, all that comes with the mentality that your somehow more priveleged and better than everyone else in EQ.
---------------------------
"My everquest character however, IS better than yours is, EXACTLY because it has more flags, more loot and a better base of power behind it. Of course, if you start ranking everquest characters in such manners, you look at it from a powergaming point of view already. If you are a casual player, why on earth would you give a damn?"


This just proves my point about the mentality i'm trying to describe, and the way most of you act as a result of your mentality that 'lesser players' are beneath you. I dont even think you realize the manner in which you think your better than everyone else. If you can, now look at it from the perspective of the one you piss on. The person your telling of how much better you are than them. Theyre thinking this guy has this big of an ego from a GAME? This guy thinks hes better than me because he has more free time on his hands and sits in front of his computer more? Thats why your critics always bring up what Uber players do in RL, because the conceit is unfounded when what makes you better is based on the amount of free time you have.

What it really comes down to is not caring. Not caring that Uber players call your kill a zerg. Not caring that Uber players say a zone is ruined by newbies once anyone else reaches those points. Not caring what any Ubers say, because it will always be critical of the 'lesser players' due to the mentality many of you have towards them. It comes down to just being content that they have access to more planes, more places to hunt, and better loot regardless of how they killed something put there as a buffer from consuming too much content too fast.

btw, it still makes me laugh how much Uber players think theyre entitled to so much with POP. Verant spoiled you guys to death with POP in every way. You think because you spend more time playing than others that you truly deserve 3/4's of an expansion when others get 1/4? You think you deserve 3/4's of the rewards, while everyone else is forced into bottom-feeding off of you? It just kills me that you guys think you 'own' zones or more entitled to 3/4's of POP over everyone else. When the reality of it is Verant spoils Ubers to a degree that everyone else should feel slighted and bitter. Make no mistake, in terms of time played you dont deserve that much more than every other player. Its just sad that Verant can get away with such neglect for the rest of the player base.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I honestly think that anyone who feels seriously emotional distress over not getting to the elemental planes should take a break from the game instead of driving on harder. Why don't I cheer them on? They are potentially ruining my enjoyment of the game, and on RN at least I can list about 300 other players who would be extremely displeased about it. [/quote]

Couldn't one argue that anyone who feels serious emotional distress over *somebody else* getting to the elemental planes should take a break as well? Why is your enjoyment of the game any more important than that of the hundreds of players who are fed up with timesinks and contested spawns?

There is that Noone guy again. He's on Drinal too?

He gets to do everything.

<strong>I honestly think that anyone who feels seriously emotional distress over not getting to the elemental planes should take a break from the game instead of driving on harder. Why don't I cheer them on? They are potentially ruining my enjoyment of the game, and on RN at least I can list about 300 other players who would be extremely displeased about it.</strong>

And I honestly think that anyone who feels serious emotional distress over someone else getting to the elemental planes should take a break from the game as they have lost touch with RL.

If the mere fact that others are in the same zone potentially ruins your enjoyment of the game, and the enjoyment of the 300 other players on RN mentioned who would be extremely displeased, then I suggest a MMORPG is not for you. NWN is designed for people like you.

How are they bypassing content? Sony makes the rules that say, "to get access to planeA, you must kill mobX, mobY, and mobZ". They kill those 3 mobs, they get access. It's that simple. If Sony wanted it to be, "to get access to planeA, you must kill mobX, mobY, and mobZ with 72 people or less" then they would make it that way.

Delheru, you're making a few fundamental mistakes.

First and foremost, you are assuming that all "casual players" are people who aren't willing to invest time and aren't dedicated to advancing. Wrong. The term 'casual' for many simply means they cannot spend large amounts of time per gaming session.

The "casual" players referred to here are absolutely willing to spend the required time and effort achieving goals; but they may not be able to spend all of that required time in 10 hour/day increments. See, they believe that someone who devotes 20 total hours towards a goal should end up with relatively the same reward as another person who devoted 20 hours towards that goal.

Because of RL obligations, one player may need a week to put in their 20 hours towards the goal, whereas the less time restricted person may be able get it done within the course of two days. The time-restricted player has <span style="text-decoration:underline">always</span> been forced to accept that he will take a longer amount of time to achieve goals; and because of long spawn timers he has also accepted that they may need to invest an even greater amount of time to see the goal accomplished.

This game has always tended to reward those who can play for longer periods of time in each session, and the time-restricted player has rolled with the punches and accepted the fact that he will usually be the last to finish each race.

What these time-restricted players are declaring with these mass flagging events is that PoP went overboard in applying undue penalties upon those who couldn't devote themselves to the game as a full time job.

Not only does PoP require longer play sessions to achieve material goals, it actually requires longer play sessions *and* large guild affiliations just to step foot onto new content. This expansion fails in an unprecented way to reward X-amount of total time invested -- PoP insists that X-amount of time must be spent in one day, *and* insists that each player must be affiliated with dozens of other people and must coordinate his own schedule with theirs. Otherwise, the person's only alternative is to engage in a 'flag quest' which requires several days of camping pieces, and even when that flag is finally obtained, it doesn't enable further progression; it's not even a real flag, merely a one-zone key which doesn't qualify as a step towards future flags.

For those who feel PoP's flagging requirements aren't fair and just to begin with, you aren't going to convince them that they are wrong for not 'respecting' SOE's desired/intended method for obtaining a real flag.

Oh, and let's not kid ourselves. At the end of the day, those 100+ people who attended a mass flagging raid event had spent just as much time as an uber guildmember who showed up for a raid and walked away with a flag that same day. The only thing you've done which they haven't, is having joined a particular type of guild with a particular type of playstyle. To that I say: so what?

~Firemynd

The point is that the people in uberguilds are lobbying to get SOE to change the rules to avoid this type of thing. They are attempting to argue that it is moral for them to derive the benefit from their "hard work" (many of them are children still in college and use this term in a different manner than other people) of having the higher tier zones to themselves. Casual players are similarly attemping to argue that they should get to see these zones because they paid for them and thus the status quo should be maintained.
Neither has a valid point. SOE should and will follow that path that maximizes their profits. The have no obligation to "reward" the ubers for their "hard work" or give everyone access to all of the content, but merely to maximize profits for their stockholders. They will try to find the point of balancing giving the ubers their penis size reassurance while minimizing the casual player's unhappiness with being denied content. Much like a simple cost/demand curve in economics, the point where they lose the fewest combined uber + casual accounts is the point they strive for.
SOE makes these decisions based on feedback and on browsing forums. The squeaky wheel gets the greese, so the ubers spam the boards to make it seem as if the status quo will cause more ubers to leave than the increase in retention of casual players. So if you're a casual player, start squeaking now, or SOE may very well change it.

<strong>They will try to find the point of balancing giving the ubers their penis size reassurance while minimizing the casual player's unhappiness with being denied content.</strong>


I have to say, this thread is coming up with the Quotes of the Day...!

Thank you TeriMoon =)

Going to respond to Delheru because his message was directed at me... it isn't intended as a flame. I am not mad or anything so it really shouldn't.

First off, my post was directed toward people who bitch about Panamah and crew getting people into zones, and people harassing other people based on how they get said flags. It was not bitching about having/not having access to planes. It was not bitching about having/not having enough time to join an uber guild to get flags. It was not bitching about ubers in general.

I never said all high level players base their self esteem on the game and how "uber" they are (but I know many people, uber or not, do). I can see how my comments can be construed as such though:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Even if Panamah's raids *were* zerging, I say screw anyone who thinks they have the moral high ground in a world of 0s and 1s. ...

Guys, <strong>these people</strong> think they are better than you because they have more flags, more loot, a different guild, or a myriad of other reasons. People like this need to get a life. [/quote]

"These people" is refering to people who think they have moral high ground in a world of 1s and 0s because they have more items flags whatever... People <strong> like this </strong> (note I did not say all ubers) really do need to find more hobbies. This means they are too emotionally invested in the game to care about much else.

I know a lot of end game players who are really nice, and I know a lot of end game players who are the scum of the earth. The only difference between players in the end game and players not in the end game is the amount of game knowledge and the time they allot themselves to play.

What I said was I think it is wrong for people to begrudge others' successes based on how they got there, and making insulting comments toward them because they didn't "earn" the flag. Like "earning" the flag in a different manner is somehow less legitimate. I never said people in uber guilds had no life, I said that the people who acted in a manner consistant with my above description need to get a life.

Now that this is hopefully straightened out (hopefully I didn't overexplain but I really wanted to be clear)...

I used to live in Alaska (curling is present there, though not obsessed over)... and curling takes an incredible amount of skill. If you doubt me, try getting on any Olympic curling team. I see your point. However, that is not responding to my point, it is responding to a false assumption of my point (see above for actual point).

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>When one of the olympic players sighs about having waited 2h for us to bungle around on the only field available (and previously reserved for them due to their higher playing time... they are good marketing for the club after all, so some special services are available), should I launch in to a rant about how they think they're better than we are and they should get a life?[/quote]

So let's translate this into EQ to make sure I understand your analogy:

When an uber guild member complains about having to wait for non uberguild people to finish playing in the only zone available (and previously reserved for uber guilds because ubers were the only ones able to get in due to their higher player time and experience) should I launch into a rant about how they think they are better than we are and that they should get a life?

Let's look at what actually happened. Panamah's raid won, they got into HoH and some uber guilded person /oocd some degrading comment regarding how they got in and that it was gimper than the way s/he got in.

Maybe the thickest skinned person wouldn't care that it was said, but I think most people would feel a sting at that jab. Sure, they won't break down in tears (if you do, get some therapy =p), but why make that comment at all? What does this person hope to achieve based on that comment? Does this person feel superior to make such a comment?

The answers are 1) Because s/he wants to make them feel inferior 2) To make them feel bad or humiliate them 3) Yes.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My everquest character however, IS better than yours is, EXACTLY because it has more flags, more loot and a better base of power behind it. Of course, if you start ranking everquest characters in such manners, you look at it from a powergaming point of view already. If you are a casual player, why on earth would you give a damn? [/quote]

I am confused why you bring this up, because frankly I don't care if anyone's character is better than mine. It's a computer game. 1s and 0s. I have never said that I cared that any character was "better" than mine.

Some comments in general, not in reference to anyone's post...

Someone's guild killed Mobquaddingforinsaneamountsofdamage02. Grats! That's awesome. Ooo... they just got into Zonethatsreallyhardtogetinto04.... Wow, I never thought I would see that happen. But when other people trickle into those zones via LEGITIMATE means (not cheating, not hacking) then why should anyone give them a hard time for doing what they had to do to get there in the first place?

You don't have to help them, you don't even have to cheer for them, just don't insult them.

Heh, given how poorly Verants 'balanced' the loot tables in favor of Ubers, theres little chance they can reach a 'fair' balance between keeping casuals happy and ubers exclusively happy. Its clear Verant stands on the Uber side anyways with how large the current disaparities are. I would be really surprised if Verant was happy about the mass flaggings.

I do think the manner in which they favor Ubers with everything is all too obvious. Hopefully it'll reflect on every non Uber player when their in a positiion where their not already years committed to a SoE game, and in a position where they can choose between a SoE product and maybe a Mythic(whatever) product without any strings attached. Brad has already built a bad rep for himself with a large portion of EQ players who would never buy a product Brad put out. I think the current design team is doing the same to their reputations as well due to the favoritism they show the highest lvl players as opposed to the majority of their playerbase.

It just indicates what directions future games theyre a part of will go in...

The reason the ubers have problem with this is that the upper end game does NOT comfortably support any more than 1-2 guilds. This has been true forever. This is a design problem of EQ.

Previous to PoP, it always took rather extreme effort in order to get to the end game content.

Kunark it was VP key and leveling. And back then leveling was really tedious.

Velious it was the learning of entirely new types of mobs that had massive single target damage output tied to large HPs. This required a new guild structure that needed more people, and also still required a lot of leveling time from each member. On my server there were very few lvl 60s even in early Velious.

Luclin took huge effort from each individual person in the form of hard (relatively compared to PoP) to get AAs and key quests.

In PoP they just went with more difficult encounters. Flags are on incidently a factor in progression since everyone on a raid gets flagged. The limit here on high end was initially the learning time associated with each encounter. Each member in the uber guilds put in significant time learning the encounter.

PoPs limiting factor to the high end (elemental planes) is now irrelevent in the face of these huge raid forces. With new server side filtering, it is not really detrimental to get 100+ people in one spot.

With these huge raids, if you lose 30 people you still have 70 going at it. Lose 30 with a total raid size of 50 and you are in deep @#%$.

And unlike some people think, it does NOT take 50 people in VT equipment to make it to the elemental planes. My own guild is about to start working on RZ and we have never stepped foot inside of VT and have barely touched Ssra (All mobs killed at least once, but only AL more than three times.). I guarantee that 50 people in NToV equipment could do these encounters if they just spent the time learning them. But people in these zergs are so god damn scared of losing that they don't even try to learn the encounter with 50 people and instead just keep adding numbers until the mob dies.

So the dam to the high end has been broken. The floods will come in and we can all see what a cluster @#%$ the high end game gets with unlimited access. The people in these high end guilds LOVE to raid each and every day. IF the raid content is gone, the game is no longer fun.

This, of course, is a problem with EQ, not the people being a part of these insanely large raids. Guilds should be able to raid in the planes without detrimentally affecting another guilds content, but it doesn't happen. If one guild does a mob then the next guild will be unable to.

Personally I think they should have common zones where you can zone in wihtout restriction and then also have guild only zones, where each guild gets their own zone and only people of that guild can enter. Do that and no one would give a rats @#%$ if it takes 300 people for an open raid to down Fenin Ro.


Oh. How did MM go?

"The reason the ubers have problem with this is that the upper end game does NOT comfortably support any more than 1-2 guilds. This has been true forever. This is a design problem of EQ."


To a degree your right. But POP is not like any other previous expansion so using previous expansions as an example just doesnt work well. The only flag/key anyone needed in Kunark was VP for the most part. Same with Luclin and Vex Thall. Nothing came close to 90% of an expansion being flag/key'd content like POP is. Which is a big reason why Ubers have been spoiled to death with POP. POP quadrupled the amount of content exclusive to them.

I completely agree that POP was designed poorly, VERY poorly in terms of zones fitting players. It seems after the first 2 tiers or so, nothing after that will fit the masses. So whats the solution when you have the majority('masses') stuck in 3-4 zones that are practical for them to be there(old world zones are impractical since most greened and give horrible exp). And as time goes by they become more fed up with the inability to advance and see new content. How can anybody here justify the 'masses' being funneled into 4'sh zones out of all the zones that exist in EQ? How could Verant not have seen this? Or did they expect the 'masses' to be content with only having 4'sh zones to exp in forever and purposely make the advancing zones as limited as they are?

LoY is probably part of the bandaid to the problem they created depending on how many other practical high lvl zones will come with it that arent exclusive access. Otherwise, i dont see how they can expect the 'masses' to be content with just 4'sh zones to play in. Its just rediculous that theyre screwing over so many people because of their poor design and lack of forethought. They dig their own grave in how it reflects on future games their name is associated with when the 'masses' remember how SoE screwed them over in POP.

Hmm.. I've stayed silent through all of this blabber.

First off, grats to Pana, and I'd call you a friend even though I've never had the pleasure of grouping/raiding or even sharing the same server with you. I wish I could. Kudos, and you truly are a saint to your server. Keep it up! BTW, I'm flagged up through tier3 zones, and did have the help of my guild for that, but to me, your accomplishments don't in any way serve to take away from my enjoyment. Will the great camps have to be shared? Yes. Do I mind sharing? No. I'd probably offer you guys groups with me, 3 druids dot stuff quicker than 1 =)

Now... onto the rubbish...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Everyone shares EQ content... I dont get your point at all. I might not like it, but I am forced to share my space where it may be in EQ with anyone else who has access to the same space/zones I am in.[/quote]

WHY are you playing a MMORPG??? Go play Diablo or a FPS (single player please, the CS community would disdain you). The fact that you would say that you are forced to share your space makes me sick to my stomach. Who in the hell do you think you are bud? And what entitles you to a zone that someone else doesn't get to enjoy? And why play a game that is built as much on the inter-game relationships with other PLAYERS (yes, RL people, wow) as with the keeling of mobs. Grow up!

Just so you guys know, I hang out in the Crypts in HoH. ANY of you are more the welcome to come join me, and guess what? I don't care how you got the flag, just glad to see a friendly face in a zone that is mostly too empty. Maybe if my server would do this, I could find a rez in HoH when I was unfortunate enuff to go LD on a kite.

I'm just so sick of people assuming that they're better EQ players because of their guild affiliation, and if any of the "masses" enter "their" zones, stupidity will abound. Give it a break. EQ isn't an olympic sport. It doesn't require natural talent. It doesn't require extensive training to do well. It requires common sense and a few basic skills.

Just because someone has to limit their gameplay in order to accomodate their real life, doesn't mean they're any worse at eq than someone who limits their real life in order to accomodate their gameplay. Playing 40+ hours a week does not mean you're necessarily a better player than someone who plays 20 hours a week.

So what if they used a large force to beat a mob you could beat with a smaller force? It doesn't devalue your achievement. It doesn't even necessarily mean that they needed so large a force, just that that's how many people who showed up needing flags. Get off your high horse on how they obtained the flags. ANYONE can get into these zones using single-group quests. But the quests are such a stupid waste of time, why not just all get together and take down the mob? Why spend a week getting one key for one person when you can spend maybe 30 minutes getting hundreds flagged? The quests are so stupidly unbalanced in comparison to the raids, you really can't expect anything else.

Definitely not zerging then. We use the same tactics as you do. With large raids, they aren't as elegantly carried out, I'm sure. But cheal chains, MGB EE, CoD pets, crowd control groups are not zerg tactics. I think on every raid until Rydda'Dar the MT lived the entire time. Rydda'Dar he died around 20% and the 2 CoD pets survived until he enraged. Then he was finished off by nukers. Definitely our zergiest moment and I thought we had lost that one.

So, I don't know about the other servers, but on Drinal they aren't zergs.

I'm infuriated that they're limiting the number of flags. Their whole flagging system sucks more than a collapsed star and now they're working on making it suck more? Why don't they put the same effort into fixing the itemization and drop rates in PoP tiers 1-3 that they do in trying to keep people from progressing? Why are they taking the lamest expansion they've ever created and making it even worse?

BDEyes, anyone can zone into Ssra, Umbral Plains, Akheva. Did you ever see anyone of an inappropriate level trying to get a group there? If they did try, they'd be laughed at and would be very unlikely to get a group. Why wouldn't you assume the same principals of grouping wouldn't apply to tier 2 or beyond? Your argument is flimsy. I run rings around you logically (thank you Monty Python for letting me borrow your line).

I remember being amused when a level 56 rogue showed up in Valor who had paid his way to get past PoJ trials. Guess what? He stood at the zone in looking for a group for hours and hours. But it was his choice to stand in a zone for hours on end LFG rather than going somewhere more appropriate to his level.
<strong>SOE makes these decisions based on feedback and on browsing forums. The squeaky wheel gets the greese, so the ubers spam the boards to make it seem as if the status quo will cause more ubers to leave than the increase in retention of casual players. So if you're a casual player, start squeaking now, or SOE may very well change it. </strong>

I agree with this 100%, sort of. They do seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with PoP though. When I realized how PoP was tearing apart my small guild because of our inability to advance I was really upset. We all applied to larger guilds eventually. I was mad and sent email to SOE about it and they just ignored me. I did feedbacks. They ignored me. They ignored the polls I posted at EQClerics, Druid's Grove and Crucible that showed the vast majority of people that participated hated the way they were excluded from zones because of the flags or hated the way their guilds had to go back and reflag over and over.

I know of dozens of people who have left EQ because of PoP, the experience level narrowing and the flags. And yet they seem unwilling to change anything except nerfing all the good out of it! I didn't want to just sit by and idlely stew and eventually quit because I was fed up. I wanted to do something about it. Thus the Drinal Flag Rebellion.

Now if what was said here about limiting flags to 72 is true, then I give up on EQ. Not just PoP, EQ. Because I'm level 65, EQ is PoP unless we're raiding Velious or Luclin and those places are hugely contested on Drinal. My teeny weeny little world fits into a few zones because everything else is green. SOE is hell bent on making it worse for some reason.

/cheer Pan

Keep up the good work, Pan. I've been honored to be able to help you lead in the small ways you have asked, and I am amazed at your patience when you do these things. Any of you guys who say its just pure zerg and no tactics--I would LOVE to see any one of you try to get 100+ people to do anything like this. I've lead MANY pickup raids in the past. In the last year I've lead a guild who has progressed through the Kunark, Velious, and into the Luclin end-game. And I've helped Panamah, Trewayn, and Jakle run these raids. Without a doubt, the most flustered I have ever been as a leader has been on these larger raids. It is VERY difficult to get that many people to carry out any tactics required to win these encounters.

My guild and most guilds on Drinal have been very supportive of these raids. And I have no regrets, at all, about flagging hundreds of people for tactics. Most of them are smart enough to know (or learned quickly) that they need to level up in order to do much there. And someday, when they get level 63, they'll have that flag already.

Plain and simple, Panamah and her raids are working through the requirements that Verant put in place, 1 by 1, just like other groups have before. It has spread people out in the PoP XP zones substantially--its a lot easier for folks to get Valor and Storms groups now too. I think it's made the state of the end-game on Drinal better for everyone.

/cheers again Pan

Let me know when the next one is, and I'll see if it works with our raiding schedule.

A new quote of the day...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Their whole flagging system sucks more than a collapsed star [/quote]

Good one!

~Firemynd

Don't give up due to the 72 limit, Panamah. Remember, this is a PvV game, and this is just another tiresome obstacle tossed in your path to overcome.

First, do more of the mass flaggings soon, while you can, before the changes get made. This is a core part of the PvV game (aka "Beat the Nerf!").

Second, the flagging limit doesn't limit the number of people you can use to take the mob down. Of course, this depends on your powers of persuasion at getting people to defer flagging while still helping, or coming back to help after flagging. I believe SOE is counting on selfish behavior to cause people beyond the 72 limit to not participate.

One thing to emphasize here is that people who are already flagged should NOT hail the planar projection, lest they use up one of the valuable "flags."

Don't give up. Get mad!

Had a few things to say but couldnt word it correctly =p

Grats on kill tho

To the idiots that proclaim that if the mass flaggings are allowed to continue the ubers will leave the game sooner (or drivel close to that) I say do a bit of simple math.

Say 4 top guilds per server and about 65 folks average per guild = 260

Server population now is somewhere around 5000-6000.

Where is SOE getting most of their money from? The ubers or the casuals?

Why do you think they put out they are changing the flaggings requirements to allow some folks who are unflagged to get into zones?

Why did the alternate access quests get somewhat easier?

To put it in terms that uber players can understand and cringe at: If 200,000 accounts were cancelled today and the reason given was that Vex Thall was keyed and PoP zones were flagged there would be a emergency patch tomorrow. Know what it would say? Vext Thall is no longer keyed and all flags have been removed from PoP zones. I bet if 100,000 players cancelled their account for those reasons you would probably see the same thing.

Why are the Pop flags in place? To keep folks out of POT before it is finished. Simple. The expansion was incomplete upon release and is still not complete.

Turn off your computer and walk out the door and you too will realize you are only one person. One among many and you are no more or no less special than anyone else. GET A LIFE.

Heheh this thread got good after the last round of posts. ;)

Ubers/powergamers as a whole are the least likely to up and quit EQ. Obviously every uberguild has its attrition over time, but those who have invested the longest and the hardest are the least likely to up and quit over something like design flaws or mass flagging rebellions. They are addicted to being in their position, getting loot, etc., and if they stopped, they know they'd get left behind or they'd have difficulty catching up again. :p That's one of the reasons why the flag system was being looked at -- the system isn't perfect by SOE's own admission, so don't try to justify it. :p

Commenting quickly on a few things first:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not only does PoP require longer play sessions to achieve material goals, it actually requires longer play sessions *and* large guild affiliations just to step foot onto new content.
[/quote]

Quite contrary to popular belief, I would daresay that PoP requires the shortest playing sessions of them all with the noticeable exceptions of Saryrn and Fennin Ro.

The point about the numbers... well. 60man worked in Ssra, and 30ish can kill Grummus, Terris Thule, Aerin'Dar, BoT access and 2 of the HoHB trials. What content does that really deny you? Essentially Plane of Tactics, Solusek Ro's Tower, the elemental planes and Plane of Time. Given time you'll break in to tactics for sure with just a temporary alliance with another guild.

Still we both know that the bigger problem is the nightmare that is flag logistics (ie making sure ALL have them... and once all have them someone on a break comes back). I'd dare say we're about as lean and mean at killing mobs as they get, but I have no wish to show off with the lower tier ********s. So I'll take a naked server transfer with all flags rather than a person in full VT set with no flags any day of the week.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This just proves my point about the mentality i'm trying to describe, and the way most of you act as a result of your mentality that 'lesser players' are beneath you. I dont even think you realize the manner in which you think your better than everyone else. If you can, now look at it from the perspective of the one you piss on. The person your telling of how much better you are than them.[/quote]

You so totally managed to miss the point. First I described that as a person I don't feel superior to them, but my everquest character is superior theirs... people never seem to grasp the difference. It's math, and it is a direct consequence of me playing fairly lots, and more importantly having HUGE flexibility in playing time due to being a student who doesn't have to worry about money. The characters are 1s and 0s, and can be compared really easily.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Its a 'diss' towards any player, because in effect you think your better than they are of which you stated point blank. Your attitude shows it as well. Now what makes you better? More or less the time your able to spend in EQ as oppposed to the next person. [/quote]

Heh well here you actually read my point. Yes, I am more efficient because I've probably played more than most of you and have been able to use the time really efficiently. To go back to the curling example, that's exactly what the Olympic team guys have on me if I went to play curling. Yet I don't find it offensive that if I start doing things they consider "against the nature of the game", they explain to me why they think so.

And go check the math on why I think it's zerg. You should REQUIRE healing, and not have it just because it gives an illusion of tactics.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The fact that you would say that you are forced to share your space makes me sick to my stomach. Who in the hell do you think you are bud? And what entitles you to a zone that someone else doesn't get to enjoy?[/quote]

This wasn't directed at me, but I found it funny.(edited) What entitles him to those zones are things that you can consider fair or unfair: his individual dedication, time spent, choice of organization and possibly intelligence (doesn't have to be high).
Amazingly enough I can give you examples of people who studied like mad, work 70h a week and join a firm on the way to the top who might own things like a Jet that THEY DO NOT THINK I AM ENTITLED TO =(! They might be idiots too, but bet on the winning horse and worked hard. Fair or not? Hard to say. I am born on the same planet so I should have the same damn rights as he should (I think there's significant agreements on that even) so don't go saying this doesn't have basis in something as solid as your massive 12$ a month.

It's how the world works, and it seems to work exactly the same in our small society experiment.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Definitely not zerging then. We use the same tactics as you do. With large raids, they aren't as elegantly carried out, I'm sure. But cheal chains, MGB EE, CoD pets, crowd control groups are not zerg tactics. [/quote]

Yet the force is a zerg, so it's hard to judge if you actually performed these even marginally adequately. Most mobs are simple to figure out as the leader (I've lead probably 80% of the serverfirst kills on Rodcet so I can say that with pretty good confidence), the execution is a LOT more difficult. And you totally skip the problems that execution bring by having overkill force that doesn't really even need the tactics, and even a marginal performance will make it seem smooth (do you want to know what exponentially increasing damage does to the weakening effect of DoT AEs?)... ie, you zerged it. Just admit it... I'm gonna get half of RN flagged for HoH just for the hell of it when we have Rathe dead, just because I have NOTHING against people expanding to other grind zones. More power to them I say, I just think that getting to the elemental planes using overkill force is cheap as hell. More on that later tho.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Say 4 top guilds per server and about 65 folks average per guild = 260

Server population now is somewhere around 5000-6000.
[/quote]

Well hrm. You underestimate the size of the top guilds. The raidsize requirements are going up some, and most guilds aren't as crazy hardcore nolifers as you people might want to believe.

Ascent has 90 active members, and maybe 20 more inactive ones who we've botted to get flags. Oh yes considering accounts I think those 110 people combine for 200-250 accounts.

Zones in PoP when I go to them are numbering roughly 30 in PoI, 80 in PoV, 60ish? in PoN, 30ish in PoJ and 20ish in PoS. That's about 220 people in the tier1-2 zones which most of the casuals hang out in. Yet there are probably around 1000+ chars online during those peak hours? Why only 220 casuals? Are 780 ubers? Or are there people who aren't even in PoP yet? Whoa what a concept... people always focus too much on their own troubles. I grant I do that myself, but you're kidding yourself if you represent the "mass" of players. You are one subgroup of many. Possibly bigger than the high end guilds, but I wouldn't even be so totally sure of that, since the top 4 forces on RN certainly have over 220 people online during peak hours.





Oh and just about the high end game. Yes it's not designed to be shared, simple as that. Why it isn't I do not know really. PoTime yea sure, but why the hell aren't the elemental planes made shareable?

Why aren't they shareable? Loot only really drops off nameds that are on spawn times. Takes us about 1h30min to clear all nameds out of PoWater and about 1h30min on top of that to clear PoFire. Now essentially 50% of the planes are done (fyi these two are on a totally different level of risk vs reward than PoAir and PoEarth). Oh yea and we usually start killing with 30ish and end with 50ish, so on average PoFire and PoWater combined give 40 people 3h of playing fun because is quite certainly is a raid zone. Oh well there's Fennin which is about 3h on top of that, and Coirnav which is pretty short too once someone actually manages to kill it. So we're looking at maybe 7h for 50 people if we're optimistic. Every 3 days... yay?

I don't get it why the armor doesn't drop off misc mobs in zone. Everyone loved it in PoF, PoH, HoT, rest of ToV etc. That would also mean that lot of different forces could camp different areas of the zone, and amount of drops would depend on killing efficiency etc. Alas, it doesn't work like that so it really does make the concept of sharing those elemental planes really rather unpleasant.

The screwup is Verants obviously, but the cluster**** that the elem planes with 700 chars flagged for them would be is quite impossible to describe.

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

For anyone interested in the moronic chatter that is the /sigh Rodcet Nife server board, feel free to visit here:

vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=5024 (http://vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=5024)

Delheru is thinking about getting together a 500-person POV dragon raid to show everyone how much he cares about RN casual gamers (See the HoH flagging post).

The reason it got so lively all of a sudden is the Drinal Flag Rebellion got mentioned in a Mobhunter article. Woot! I'm pretty sure SOE reads Mobhunter, so maybe... maybe... they'll follow the link to here and see that most people think their flags stink like a 10 day old whale carcass in downtown El Segundo when the oil refinaries are working at max production.

Also, not to argue with the people who seem to agree with me, but I think defining casual player as someone with little time to play doesn't quite portray it. A casual player can be someone like me who plays a lot but my guild choices would keep from out of tier 3. I happen to like the smaller, family type guilds where the focus is on personalities, reputations, doing challenging raids for the force you have. They tend to be super picky about who they let in and they don't strive to be "uber".

Anyway, the reason I bring that up is because lots of us work hard, but it's our guild choice that keeps us out of PoP content, not our hard work and dedication. So you might say, well if you're not in the right guild then you don't deserve it. Quit and join a raiding guild. Ok, and boy did those raiding guilds suddenly beef up after PoP came out to the point where they became too large and started to fall apart (many of them).

Who decided that the measure of your success and progress should only be defined based on your guild affliation? I can understand before raid channels were created why that might have been necessary, but the notion seems obsolete now. What about guilds that band together, either temporarily or permanently, to do things? Are they somehow less deserving of what they achieve? We have alliances like that on Drinal. We also have an association of small guilds that does things together. And now we have an even more encompassing structure of the DFR to accomplish certain goals.

Anyway, I kind of like this whole thing because it challenges people's preconceptions of how EQ is played. You've got your stodgey traditionalists who think you have to do everything in a tight knit unit called a guild. They're sort of like the ethnic groups that live in their own neighborhoods and refuse to integrate with the larger community. Or they're like Microsoft writing closed, proprietary software and not sharing technology with anyone else and squishing out any competition.

Then you've got the EQ liberals, like me, that believe in freedom for the masses, integration, open source, open protocols, coopetition, Linux and Boysenberry pie.

As far as a 500 person raid... /giggle. Yeah, try it. You might as well try to raid with 100,000 coppers in your pockets. You won't be able to move.

Delhure said

"The screwup is Verants obviously, but the cluster**** that the elem planes with 700 chars flagged for them would be is quite impossible to describe"

So your statement implies that with a lot less flagged the elemental planes would be a cluster****. And as mosts ubers since your guild is already flagged for them you want to keep those low numbers.

Again ubers don't want us "lowly folks" in their hunting grounds.

If you look at a lot of ubers they say that smaller guilds shouldnt be in a rush to get to the elemental planes because what would they do when they go there... go LFG? Yet you say 30 folks can do elemental planes. Granted 30 VT equipped folks. But that doesn't mean that 2 -3 25 person guilds can't go to the elemental planes to hunt (and suceed) even if they have to share the loot. Oh yeah, I forgot, the loot that would go to the ubers IF no other smaller guilds hunted there.
------------------------
Why are uber guilds allowed to flag alt characters that took no part in the fight? That is bypassing content (the exact same thing they are accusing the folks who mass raid the flag mobs.)

Why is Powerleveling allowed? This bypasses content. Yet Ubers have BOTs all over the place (we all do), so they are doing the same thing as the folks who mass raid the flag mobs.

Bottom line is most ubers do exactly the same thing as casual players do but do it first. Some times they do it with less numbers (flag mobs) and sometimes they do it with more numbers (BOT characters). But they decry others who don't do it in the formula or fashion they do it.
------------------------

Typical uber player to casual player - zerging a mob is unfair. SOE didn't mean for 200 folks to do a flag mob.

Typical warrior to druid - charm killing is unfair. SOE didn't mean for one person to solo and make experience faster than a 6 man group.
-------------------------

When I speak of ubers I don't mean all folks belonging to uber guilds. I am speaking of those in uber guilds who have the elitest, snobby, holier than thou attitudes.

Hehe Panamah I love pie too.

Gratz Panamah, kick rear and take names... hope ya keep us informed of the content some in game egos don't want casual gamers to see... Kudos for assembling everyone and showing what can be done with just average everyday toons...

Alaten
Hierophant

I feel stupider for having read this thread.

Nevertheless, grats on the raids Panamah!

"Are you the the Flag Rebellion of Drinal?"

"Fuuk off!" (pause) "We're the Drinal Flag Rebellion"

"what ever happened to the Flag Rebellion of Drinal?"

"He's over there"

"SPLITTER!!!"

^ lol

:cool:

Tia

And what the heck is it I hear with the limit on flagging? Was I seeing things? When will they realize that this is so stupid.

Ah you know, limiting the number of flags given at such a killing event. Nope, you weren't seeing things.

Couldn't help but get hung up on this paragraph:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Yet the force is a zerg, so it's hard to judge if you actually performed these even marginally adequately. Most mobs are simple to figure out as the leader (I've lead probably 80% of the serverfirst kills on Rodcet so I can say that with pretty good confidence), the execution is a LOT more difficult. And you totally skip the problems that execution bring by having overkill force that doesn't really even need the tactics, and even a marginal performance will make it seem smooth (do you want to know what exponentially increasing damage does to the weakening effect of DoT AEs?)... ie, you zerged it. Just admit it... I'm gonna get half of RN flagged for HoH just for the hell of it when we have Rathe dead, just because I have NOTHING against people expanding to other grind zones. More power to them I say, I just think that getting to the elemental planes using overkill force is cheap as hell. More on that later tho.
[/quote]

First off, you're defining a "zerg" as a large raid. We already went over this with Matafleur. If you're one person more than you need to kill a mob, then I guess that means that Ascent zergs too. Sounds like you have a rather large guild if you have 110 or so active players. If you can kill a mob with 100, do you tell the other 10 players to log off so you won't be accused of zerging? No? I didn't think so. If FoH can kill something with 25 and it takes Ascent 35, aren't you zergers in their eyes?

The real definition of a zerg is throwing suiciding bodies at a target each one doing a small amount of damage but dying in the process. Eventually you hope to have someone left standing at the end. Sort of how they fought in the old days with guys with muskets lined up on both sides. They'd just shoot and the people with the superior numbers were probably going to win. But in those days, that was considered the polite and proper way to conduct war.

Now, going back to the warfare example. If Britain invaded the US with 2000 troops. Should I match them with 2000 troops even though I have 40,000 at my disposal? It'd make the war more challenging and the outcome more exciting. If we won we could feel really proud of ourselves. Shucks, if we fought them with 1000 we could really clap ourselves on the back and be happy about it. And then we could call the Canadians zergers or something when Alaska invades them.

But why would you do that? Of course you want to win the war, or the encounter, so you do what you can to maximize the chances of that outcome is a favorable one. Do you take off your armor and unequip your weapons if you're overpowered for an encounter?

You're making the mistake of comparing the DFR to a guild. We're not. We don't have the same goals as a guild does. We come together to acheive an objective which is to eliminate as many of the annoying flags as we can for as many people as we can. After we get that out of the way we go back to our own guilds and do our own things in our own ways.

It isn't an olympic event, we aren't competing against anyone except Sony's game. We aren't trying to prove that we kill things with as much precision as Ascent, I'm sure we're far from it. But until you understand what the term zerg actually means and where it comes from you might want to refrain from using it.

Panamah

They don't listen. They don't want to. They are afraid you will be the cause of their little turf getting overrun. You are the nightmares they have at night.

I think my new signature pretty well sums it all up.

Having participated in several of the zerg alliance raids all I can do is /cheer.

Coming from a realatively small (in power not numbers) guild on Drinal these raids are opening content to our higher level members that we as a guild know we will not be prepared to take on for some time. Those members may have felt the need to move on to more powerful guilds on the server in order to gain access to some zones but now they can stay guilded with their friends and their family and continue to raid with us and continue the progression of the guild at the pace we are prepaired for.

I hope that the raids will continue as they are opening my playing field. DI's hardly ready to step on CiH or CT/WL toes for raid mobs but we seem to have no problems when grouping with them for experience mobs and that's all we want at this point. We want our level 63+ members to have the same oppertunity as any other 63+ character to get the spells, equipment and experience that they need to continue their characters progression. If anyone was going to complain about that it would be Trevise's spell trader since he might lose out on some business this way ;)

Ndainye Wyndwalker
61 Druid / Officer of Divine Intervention Drinal
Happy to have participated in Zerg Alliance for Grummus and Flagged via Zerg Alliance Behemoth.

Well said Panamah...."cheers"..............It's so sad that SOE no longer has a forum for our input and no longer even takes the time to answer our concerns. That is what the forum accomplished, we felt they at least listened to us.

I think their lack of attention to our concerns has put off many potential buyers of SWG. I am wondering if perhaps the few at SOE who used to care have moved on.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>First off, you're defining a "zerg" as a large raid. We already went over this with Matafleur. If you're one person more than you need to kill a mob, then I guess that means that Ascent zergs too. Sounds like you have a rather large guild if you have 110 or so active players. If you can kill a mob with 100, do you tell the other 10 players to log off so you won't be accused of zerging? No? I didn't think so. If FoH can kill something with 25 and it takes Ascent 35, aren't you zergers in their eyes?[/quote]

Sigh you didn't read the math in one of my posts? I define zerg as something that can do significant damage to a mob without even an attempt at tactics. Whether you try to apply tactics or not is your own choice, but the insane damage does wreck havoc, and things that cause attrition don't even kick in to play (low hp agro caused by small AEs, AE dots, defensive wearing off MT etc).

That's why it's only a problem now. Velious and Luclin mobs had too many hp to be 'zerged' to kill them before they killed you would have required more people than the zones could have handled.

Kunark lacked serverfilters so going over 40 never really helped, though to my great sorrow I've actually once participated in a two wave Trakanon kill. IE 40 charge, then 40 charge when there's 10 left of those 40. I thought that was zerging, even though the tactic was very, very sound indeed. Only thing that was questionable was the numbers.

Oh and Ascent has 90ish active members and 20 _in_active ones if you read it closer. Most inactives are unlikely to come back. From that force I've never seen more than 70 online, which is admittedly huge @#%$ force considering our gear level.

Anyway my point about zerg was the exponential effects of added people on the damage... it's on page 5 I think, and I'd like to hear you argue why that doesn't trivialize content.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But why would you do that? Of course you want to win the war, or the encounter, so you do what you can to maximize the chances of that outcome is a favorable one. Do you take off your armor and unequip your weapons if you're overpowered for an encounter? [/quote]

Not really, but if I'm overpowered for all encounters do you think I'd stay around playing the game very long? I doubt you would either... that sort of crazy power in the hands of the players might fit Diablo, but not Everquest. What I think is bugging most high end players, is that if we had a 300man, there's no way Verant could stop us from blitzing through ALL the encounters. Nor does it seem possible to make an encounter that isn't VT like (ie just take a PoP mob and multiple hitpoints by 10 or 20) nor trivial for a 200man. So we either end up with encounters that REQUIRE 200 people (so much for helping those small guilds =)! ) or mobs get their hitpoints multiplied and we're back to the lameness that is VT. I can't see any way to prevent that except by making the 200mans really, really painful logistically... which means reducing the flags, and probably giving more AEs to kill them.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It isn't an olympic event, we aren't competing against anyone except Sony's game. We aren't trying to prove that we kill things with as much precision as Ascent, I'm sure we're far from it. But until you understand what the term zerg actually means and where it comes from you might want to refrain from using it.[/quote]

Everyone defines 'zerg' they want to. Lets call it 'using excessive force to trivialize low hitpoint npc encounters' if you prefer. Also it's funny how some don't realize that the game indeed is NOT totally Player vs Environment, due to the scarcity effect. Quite comparable to economy. Theoretically it's all very nice that everyone does well, but sometimes 50000 companies in a single business is bad ><

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Both of you are arguing two totally different points.

Delheru is saying DFR is zerging.

Panamah said her goal is not to fight with finesse, but to get massive amounts of people flagged.

Call it what you will, Panamah is doing a service for the player base. Delheru calling it zerg is basically pissing on Panamah's parade. Be happy for other people for once, or at least don't say anything.

Think back to all of the pick up raids you have ever hosted. Every single Pick up Naggy or Vox raid I have led had massive amounts of people (upwards of 5-10 groups probably). We had never fought together... it was like herding cats, but it had to be done because I wanted to claim the Ragefire camp after Naggy was dead... oh the days...

One raid I led, we had one cleric and one druid, and 11 groups of melee and casters. That was a zerg. And we almost lost because people are stupid.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers.

"We want our level 63+ members to have the same oppertunity as any other 63+ character to get the spells, equipment and experience that they need to continue their characters progression"

Is this Drinal Flag Rebellion doing the same to get hundreds of players into Veeshans Peek, Sleepers Tomb, NToV, Plane of Mischief, Emperor Sssra or Vex Thal?

Very awarding hunting grounds (spells, equipment, experience) for any 60+.

I have met alot of people who have never been in one of those zones but are complaining of not beeing able to enter Plane of Tactics, Torment, CoD and so on.

Why is that? Why not doing one step after another? Did anyone of you complain because old planes were level restricted? (And btw. at the beginning one was in need of a very large guild to even enter those old planes safely)

Dont take me wrong. I congratulate everyone on killing flag mobs regardless of their raid size, level average or equipment status.

I once took part myself in a zerging raid: 140 ppl brought Behemoth down in 12 seconds. There was absolutely no tactic involved. Just one command: "Nuke" and it was done.

So, i think you Rebellion guys should proceed to do so if its your kind of playing the game. But dont get upset if not everyone pays respect for it. An imho the very first post of this thread was nothing more than "fishing for respect".

"Is this Drinal Flag Rebellion doing the same to get hundreds of players into Veeshans Peek, Sleepers Tomb, NToV, Plane of Mischief, Emperor Sssra or Vex Thal?

Very awarding hunting grounds (spells, equipment, experience) for any 60+."


VP- outdated and dunno why people would want to be there unless they just want to see it.

ST- only reason people key there is for melee primal

NToV- open for anyone to try, no keys.

PoM- LOL, why? More outdated content and no keys needed

Emp Sssra- G'luck getting GRC scrolls the way their pharmed by the 1-2 guilds pharming all of Sraa for VT keys. No GRC = No Srra. Very stupid how Verant bottlenecked all of Srra btw with the need for GRC.

Vex Thall- The longest time sink ever put into the game. Why?


The point you just made is silly, and only stupid people would do that. Why go through all that effort for outdated content(VP, PoM) where the exp is 10x's worse? IF your 60+ do you regularly exp in non-POP zones? Why do you expect others to? Why go through 100x's the work of what their currently doing to get into Vex Thall? Vex Thall is exclusive to the Uber player that has tons of time to devote to camping keys. Vex Thall was THE end game time sink so Ubers didnt go through all the content and they knew something long and painful was there in the end. It was never made for anybody but Uber players that have tons of time to spend because they've gobbled up all the other content. So Verant has to put in something thats rediculously long in relation to the amount of time Uber players spend playing EQ. Do you even know how stupid it would be for any casual guild, or list of 100+ people to get and camp a Vex THall key for each of them? Thats just a dumb point.

The people that argue 'progression' are abit unrealistic and bitter because they had to do it that way. POP increased the power of Guilds substantially. Going from max lvl 60 to max lvl 65 means they can skip content. Going from 0 AA's to 50+ AA's means they can skip content. For a guild, ST, Srra, and NToV would probably be the only practical targets on your list. For what the 'REBELLION' is doing, you just dont get it. They just want to see new current content, and not be jammed into the 4'sh zones they were funneled into.

Also, i'm still very skeptical about most of these people hitting a brick wall once they advance further. The same was said about PoV/PoS by some people, and look how wrong they turned out to be? 3rd tiers arent much harder than the 2nd tiers that i've seen, in fact the giants in PoS are harder than the giants in BoT imo. Unless you try and tackle the more difficult stuff in the 3rd tiers, but it'd be similar to trying to tackle the more difficult stuff in the 2nd tier zones as well. For just exp'ing i dont see how a group that can handle 1st and 2nd tiers couldnt handle 3rd tiers. I'm not sure after that, but from what i read parts of the elemental planes are gimped too. Ever since the exxagerations about how hard PoV/PoS were for those people that were trying to pass trials, i'm very skeptical of what the higher up guilds say the lower guilds can handle. Many of them are bitter the guilds now dont have to go through the same progression they did. Very similar to the Druids that got their epics first are bitter that Druids that get their epics now have it so much easier.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Is this Drinal Flag Rebellion doing the same to get hundreds of players into Veeshans Peek, Sleepers Tomb, NToV, Plane of Mischief, Emperor Sssra or Vex Thal? [/quote]

If you even read what Pana wrote, you would know that the DFR in NO WAY is trying to gear ANYONE up. The only reason you would do the major time sink for a VT key, or bother with VP is if your GUILD raided there regularly. C'mon. The whole point is stated in the name of the Alliance.. DRINAL'S *FLAG* REBELLION. They are knocking out flags, NOT going after equipment, exp, or spells (atleast not the ones gotten in VT, VP).

Think about it people, if these guilds have to form an alliance to take out the flag mobs, what the hell makes you think they are ready to take out the Emp to finish a VT key? Getting 50+ people with Shissar Bane weapons and a complete Emp ring key is nowhere NEAR the same thing as getting folks flagged en masse. Emp ring key and Shissar Bane weapon farming takes MONTHES. A Flag mob takes hours. I don't see these as even remotely in the same class of event.

Please think about the nature of the Rebellion before you start with the VT, VP, PoM crap. :(

<strong>I define zerg as something that can do significant damage to a mob without even an attempt at tactics.</strong>

As I said above, with this definition, Panamah's raids are not "zerg" events. The ones I have been on or seen did apply tactics, and would not have succeeded without doing so.

<strong>Lets call it 'using excessive force to trivialize low hitpoint npc encounters' if you prefer.</strong>

Changing the definition doesn't matter. Panamah's raids didn't trivialize the encounters to any greater extent than 50-60 people with VT equipment would have. Excessive force can be measured in terms of equipment as well as pure numbers.

"If you even read what Pana wrote, you would know that the DFR in NO WAY is trying to gear ANYONE up."

If you would even read what i wrote, you would have noticed, that i was referring to the poster before and his argument of having same gear and spells like "every 63+".

Without raiding the mentioned zones, they will never have.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you would even read what i wrote, you would have noticed, that i was referring to the poster before and his argument of having same gear and spells like "every 63+".

Without raiding the mentioned zones, they will never have. [/quote]

And without being a Tier1 Uber guild they will NOT see that content. I'm in a guild that is in the top3 on my server and we still aren't in VT. We are farming keys right now. It's impossible for a SMALL, family oriented guild to get enuff keyed members for either Emp or VT, IMHO. Hell, it's why I left my last guild. They had no interest in flagging for PoS/PoV, much less the upper tier planes. If I wanted to progress, I had to move on... some are unwilling to do that. I respect their perseverance.

DISCLAIMER: This is not meant as a flame, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I just have a hard time seeing how VT/Emp is comparable to PoP mass flaggings. Please take no personal offense.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I define zerg as something that can do significant damage to a mob without even an attempt at tactics.

As I said above, with this definition, Panamah's raids are not "zerg" events. The ones I have been on or seen did apply tactics, and would not have succeeded without doing so.[/quote]

Notice the word CAN. 5 people beating up a single person can use the finest martial arts in the world... sure they are kickass people, but it doesn't make the fight any more fair for that one person. Hell arguably it's even more ridiculous =p I never said the people are incompetent, I'm saying they are TRIVIALIZING it.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lets call it 'using excessive force to trivialize low hitpoint npc encounters' if you prefer.

Changing the definition doesn't matter. Panamah's raids didn't trivialize the encounters to any greater extent than 50-60 people with VT equipment would have. Excessive force can be measured in terms of equipment as well as pure numbers.[/quote]

Well thanks for the respect for our gear. We are indeed well geared, but I'm not quite arrogant to think a 50-60man with the best equipment in game will ever come even CLOSE to outdamaging a 150man. Especially when you consider the fact that the best damage is CoD pets, which have absolutely nothing to do with gear at all.

Also you lose a lot of the gear advantage when you force a mob to a corner which is rather useful at many mobs (for example RZ).... I'd say we do maybe 50% MAX more damage per person than a misc lvl 65 horde. And looking at the math on page 5, I had our dps as 60 and the masses dps as 40. Yet the bigger raid does very well... just go re-read please =P

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And without being a Tier1 Uber guild they will NOT see that content. I'm in a guild that is in the top3 on my server and we still aren't in VT. We are farming keys right now.[/quote]
Why? Just go to elemental planes now. You don't need emp or VT.

Ubers don't give a damn if you guys just are doing raids to get to some extra content. I am more worried about when 4+ guilds make it to the elemental planes. There is probably enough content in the elemental planes to keep 150 people reasonably happy. However, it takes very little time investment to make it to the planes if you raid with 100+ people. In fact it is trivial.

In a month I am sure we will have four guilds in the elemental planes. There is just too damn much competition for content in this game any more. And it is going to get worse fast. Guilds need their own virtual play spaces.

The whole debate about Panamah and her raids beeing zergs or not is ridiculous.

The point isn't to know if they have skill, knowledge or anything.The way they are reaching their goal doesn't matter at all.

That whole thing is about circumventing a very stupid lockdown on lots of zones, imposed by SoE that feared we would "finish" PoP too fast.

I think the people on Drinal came with a great solution, no, not great, just the best one.

Whatever the circumstances (overkill, no tactic, or any aspect of the process that ubbers will dislike because it's not the way they do things) helping so much people reach more zones in PoP is an accomplishment that earns my respect.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And without being a Tier1 Uber guild they will NOT see that content. I'm in a guild that is in the top3 on my server and we still aren't in VT. We are farming keys right now. It's impossible for a SMALL, family oriented guild to get enuff keyed members for either Emp or VT, IMHO. Hell, it's why I left my last guild. They had no interest in flagging for PoS/PoV, much less the upper tier planes. If I wanted to progress, I had to move on... some are unwilling to do that. I respect their perseverance.[/quote]

This is all a matter of your determination as a guild. As the leader of probably the youngest "Uber" guild on Rodcet Nife, being only about 6 months old, I can say we've achieved alot by being determined it. It only took us 4-5 weeks to Key and Bane Equip 60-70 people for the Emperor and get enough Banes for Lord Seru at the same time. It has only taken us a little over 3 weeks to get ~70 Vex Thal keys after monopolizing the Emperor for the last month.

Now we have alot more time to spend on our PoP goals then we did before. We did sacrifice the first few months of PoP content, but our determination will benefit us better then if we hadn't we feel.

We are pretty much Ranked #4 on Rodcet, but you can bet we'll be in the elemental planes with a little more time. It's only a matter of determination as a guild.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Call it what you will, Panamah is doing a service for the player base. Delheru calling it zerg is basically pissing on Panamah's parade. Be happy for other people for once, or at least don't say anything.[/quote]

Honestly, I don't think Delheru calling it a Zerg is pissing on his parade. Honestly, I would agree that it is still a Zerg force. Oh, I'm sure if I wanted I could bring 100 invites along on my PoP raids with my guild and we'd pretty much win any battle we went up against. But personally, I wouldn't feel any sense of pride in the win. And I consider any group of people that use such numbers as a Zerg Raid. Zerg doesn't necessarily mean they are morons or idiots. Just that they are using an incredible amount of people (hint: thats where Zerg came from!)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Like i said before, i dont think your the only one. I think alot, or a good portion of Uber/high lvl players look down on other 'lesser' players. I think they have the same mentality you do. Thats why i'm not a big fan of Uber players as it is, because whereever you go, they always think its THEIR playground and that theyre entitled to more than everyone else. I've had so many experiences where Uber groups/guilds disrespect camps, people, guilds, zones, etc. because of their belief of entitlement to everything, and the mentality that they are better than everyone else so the rules most people abide by out of respect for others dont apply to them. [/quote]

Honestly, I don't think alot of Highend/Uber players have a true elitest attitude, but more of a competative/annoyed attitude. The Hardcore Uber gamer sacrifices alot of their free time to achieve the goals they want to achieve. These sorts of guilds work very hard and don't wnat to be slowed down. So they are very competative and they don't like other guilds playing in their sandbox. This doesn't mean they think they are necessarily Better people, just that they don't want competition.

Other reasons is that high end guilds don't want to deal with alot of the bull**** that comes from random people. I mean seriously, two days ago my guild went after Behemoth and killed him again to flag some more people. Within 1 minute of Behemoth dying we had atleast 3 or 4 <strong>Ninja Flaggers</strong> as I like to call them, show up. And atleast 1 of them brought a nice little train with them. Now, alone it might of not been such a huge deal, but after losing a good chunk of forces during the Behemoth battle, plus the fact that we had about 12 spider adds that like to assist the train. We had around 20-30 poeple that got killed and some of them could of potentially missed their chance to get the flag THEY earned if the train had not subsided and their bodies had warped to the graveyard.

1 of these above people used the excuse that they brought us a shaman from another guild that we had never asked for and said they weren't there to ninja a flag, although 30 seconds later this person was hailing the flag mob, then died in the train. Suffice it to say, I told my clerics not to rez any uninvited guests.

Bull**** like the above and other crap comes from Random people. Shortly after we killed behemoth we decided we wanted to work on the Halls of Honor trials, but a few new applicants needed their HoH flag, so we decided to kill Aerin`Dar on the way. I refused any guests or non-guild associated people because I don't want to deal with that random BS in other zones. But for some stupid reason, 4 fu**ing morons thought they didn't have to respect my refusal for guests and ran in when we opened up the door to Aerin Dar and sat waiting on the far side of his chamber for us to kill him. I had a GM remove them from the lair as we killed Aerin`Dar, and the gm told me they were steaming mad. Well, SoL to them.

Last thing I want for my guild is more people sitting in Trial basements in HoH claiming camps where I need to do a Trial for my guild. And have to argue with some stuipd moron why he has to leave the trial area. Or I don't need other moron's despawning the trial triggers and causing me to have to wait a few hours for them to respawn where it might be potentially to late in the day for my guild to do them. Or some other lamer who might decide to train into a trial after we've completed in, in hopes of ninja'ing a flag and killing some of us in the process.

And on through our PoP progression, the less I have to deal with these types of idiots the better.

Do high end guilds have elitest attitudes? No, I think we have attitudes of annoyance from the morons that make everyone outside our guilds look like idiots.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Do high end guilds have elitest attitudes? No, I think we have attitudes of annoyance from the morons that make everyone outside our guilds look like idiots.[/quote]

I don't need to say anything here.

"Do high end guilds have elitest attitudes? No, I think we have attitudes of annoyance from the morons that make everyone outside our guilds look like idiots."


I guess what im trying to say is its your generalization that the masses include the 'morons' so you treat them all as 'morons'. Which is hard to blame i guess because its not like you can weed out the morons from the masses. I will say a 'moron' isnt limited to the masses, and there are many 'morons' accredited to the Uber guilds. Way more than they usually get credit for(i'm sure they dont act as much of the moron they are when their around their leaders heh)~

What I stated was that it was "the" morons that make everyone else look bad.

Just like when someone or some group from 1 guild pisses you off a good deal you start developing a dislike for that whole guild.

It's the same with high end guild and outside people. I don't think eveyrone is a moron, but I'm going to minimize my having to deal with them if possible.

"Last thing I want for my guild is more people sitting in Trial basements in HoH claiming camps where I need to do a Trial for my guild. And have to argue with some stuipd moron why he has to leave the trial area. "

Can you not see that you are disrupting RANDOM_PLAYER as much by doing this (ordering them away from the area) as someone would by training your flag raid? This sounds terribly elitist to me.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Hardcore Uber gamer sacrifices alot of their free time to achieve the goals they want to achieve.[/quote]

It seems as though this is the distillation of any discussion on this sort of topic. Hardcore gamers (often belonging to uber guilds) play a lot. They do the same encounter until they get it right. I am supposing that this must be satifying and fulfilling to those people.

I would not presume to choose for anyone how much they play. But, I play not nearly as much as some who consider themselves casual family-oriented gamers, and I still feel that I am sacrificing some quality time that I could be giving to real life relationships or activities other than EQ. And thanks in advance for your well-meaning suggestions on what I should do anout this conflict.

The point I am trying to make however, is that what some see as necessary sacrifice to achieve a goal, I see as complete BS, given that this is an entertainment I pay to play. If I can master the basic skills which are required of reaction time and attentiveness, I see no reason why I should also have to commit huge amounts of my free time in order to progress in PoP or any other expansion. I do not need to see each and every zone. I do not have VT key nor a ST key nor VP key, and I probably never will. I have decided that those things are wasteful of the time I do have to play. They are not the best use of my time. However, my progression should not stop and cease because a relatively small proportion of the playing population has an almost fanatical obsession with playing and staying on top. You are welcome to the top. I want my levels and spells and more playing variety and one or two nice items, and zones where my friends can also come to play. Unfortunately, right now, there is only PoP to play in 60+. People (even most of the really casual gamers) are simply not going to accept a limitation in level or spells. No one was ever prevented from levelling to 60 and gaining most of their spells on their own by keys to VT, VP or ST. While its true that one could level to 65 in storms and valor alone, what @$(*ing fun is that??

The fact that events such as Panamah's could even be accomplished in this day of mudflation and elitism should be proof enough that players are not going to accept the strangling joy-killing limitations SOE has (I assume unintentionally) made with PoP flagging.

Wake up.

Instead of secretly writing to SOE asking for limits on flagging (which will only put a small delay on the matter in any case), we all should be loudly demanding for better zones to play in for the 60+ crowd. Its ridiculous how we are crowded and crammed in to a few decent zones.

The people who were going to quit because of this design have probably already done so. Face it. There are hoards of 58+ people looking for flagging events every day and getting them. Until we have some relief from SOE of the overcrowded zones, I don't know how anyone expects to get much of anywhere. You aren't going to keep people out this time. You can keep people out of VT.etc because its one zone per expansion and people will go elsewhere rather than hassle with it. But when there is nowhere else to go, people will move on. Face it, live with it, and lets come up with something positive, instead of blaming each other for this mess.

Well honestly, they did provide all those players cramed into 2 zones with quests that allow them access to other zones.

Ever consider that?

Sage Eelyen of the Nexus,

If you want exclusive access to content then either:

a) Hire SOE to write a zone for your guild.
b) Play something that isn't a MMORPG, like NWN, you can just play with your non-idiot friends.

The rest of us paid for the development and the day-to-day costs of the zones you have been enjoying with little competition. You've been spoiled and pamped with PoP by the developers who clearly stuck it to the little guys with this expansion.

Well, the little guys got fed up like they always eventually do and their throwing the Tzar out of the castle, their guillotinizing the Royal family and coming up with the metric system, and they're declaring indepence from the offshore Imperialist pigs in wigs.

Fortunately for rebellions in the past they didn't have a developers that could quash rebellions with a few lines of code, otherwise lots of us would be paying taxes to England still.

The quests? I laugh. That's the "Let them eat cake!" answer. And how long would it take 100 people to do those quests? Competing for the same items that spawn infrequently? Oh yes, you'd like people to do the quests I'm sure. That way they'd never get to your exclusive zones.

Consider what in relation to that?

I consider that those quests are ludicrous because they are time consuming and once one does them, they get you into that zone but not beyond. So why bother? And what incentive do you have for wanting to stop at a certain zone these days? There are still hundreds more to be flagged for BoT and that zone is already camped up a good deal of the time. With SOE's history of nerfing drops, breaking spawns and loot tables and not fixing them for years, why would anyone want a flag that doesn't really get you anywhere?

I am not even sure what your comment is supposed to mean. Why should you care how people get where they get? If there were an alternative quested way that "the masses" could get to the Plane of Time, would that be satisfactory to you? Maybe what you are saying is that its ok with you for people to get into BoT and HoH because soon (if not already) you will have all but vacated these zones for higher tiers. I don't know. What I do know is that more and more low 50 people are finding they can handle tier 1. More and more 58+ are finding their way into pos/pov. Why shouldn't they? Its the best experience around. You'd have to be nuts to avoid PoP totally and only play in the old world from abot 52 on. Its not gonna happen. You've got the majority of players coming to PoP. Good thing its not on Norrath or the concentration of people all in one spot would throw norrath off its orbit.

"Well honestly, they did provide all those players cramed into 2 zones with quests that allow them access to other zones.

Ever consider that?"


Have you tried the quests? I have, actually all the keys i have are from the side quests. There is no way a casual player will finish these quests withiin a reasonable amount of time. They are 10x's the effort of getting 100 people togehter to kill some dragon. Remember it takes a group just to get lucky for one piece for one group member. Then there are multiple pieces that arent easy to come by. I'm still trying to get my last Daiku medallion, and i cant tell you how many repeats i keep getting, and i exp in PoS desert often as it is. You should also take into account the fact that its very difficult to find pickup groups in some POP zones that isnt PoV. I swear the only place i can really go pickup grouping seems to be PoV with any chance. The people with access to guild groups have such a significant grouping advantage over the ones that dont. Thank God i'm in one, or else POP would be twice the nightmare.

The side quests for key access are lame. I'd much rather do the 'REBELLION' thing to get access, its so much easier than putting yourself through all that pharming just to key one person outa your group.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well honestly, they did provide all those players cramed into 2 zones with quests that allow them access to other zones.

Ever consider that? [/quote]

Yep, and the quests still suck. If folks were doing a flag rebellion on TT I'd tell all my guildmates and friends to be there. The CoD key took me weeks, and I'm the only one flagged there, so I can solo, or group with friends in other guilds. The HoH quest NPC has failed 2 box combines for my guildmates. Daiku in PoStorms? Heh, I have 1 of 4 medallions in 10 kills. BoT is the only reasonable quest in the bunch if you're looking to get your friends and guildmates flagged.

Alternate quests are big, boring timesinks, and they only provide 1 key. Alliance raids are a much better approach to getting flagged.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Honestly, I don't think alot of Highend/Uber players have a true elitest attitude, but more of a competative/annoyed attitude. The Hardcore Uber gamer sacrifices alot of their free time to achieve the goals they want to achieve. These sorts of guilds work very hard and don't wnat to be slowed down. So they are very competative and they don't like other guilds playing in their sandbox. This doesn't mean they think they are necessarily Better people, just that they don't want competition.[/quote]

No offense, but pardon me if I don't put too much stock in that. You are admittedly a Leader of an Uber guild. And if you truly got 60 people keyed for Emp in a month or so, I can say you guys play too much....

I play ALOT, I camp Key pieces ALOT. And for your info, I am working on my VP, VT, and Emp keys because my guild does intend to enter all these zones (VP being a regular event for us already) so yes, I am speaking from a bit of experience. I guess my guild could be considered an Uber guild as we are in the top 4 on our server, but I chose them because they are the only Tier1-2 guild on my server that don't seem to be elitest. Uber guilds require a certain amount of that attitude, but to purely think you are above ever grouping with someone outside your Tier is sickening. When I'm sporting VT gear, I won't be sitting on this message board talking about people playing in MY sandbox. Sorry, hundreds of thousand subscribers are not paying for YOUR sandbox. Take that attitude elsewhere please, that's just plain silly and quite frankly, none of us want to hear any more of it.

The alternate quests for flagging are gimp. Uber guilds who blow or take down flag mobs to block others are gimp. Uber guild members who think that they deserve their own sandbox are gimp. If you fall into any of these categories, you too are gimp.

Now THAT was a flame, this is getting rediculous.

When did EQ go from a game of peers that helped one another to accomplish goals that they alone set to 2 different games? It would be different if these Uber guilds were even partially willing to take in members that truly wanted to see end game content. "Oh, sorry, you don't have your 50 required class AA's and no keys, go join another guild." If you won't let people in then they will find out another way. If you cockblock people out of your sandbox you will find that you are shooting yourself in the foot, as they WILL get in eventually, and now you have half your server pissed off at you. You may control the endgame right now, but that is about to change....

Edited, since I have no clue what is offensive these days, I removed it all.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The rest of us paid for the development and the day-to-day costs of the zones you have been enjoying with little competition.[/quote]

No, you paid for rights to play the game on the server. Sony payed for the Development to provide more content.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You've been spoiled and pamped with PoP by the developers who clearly stuck it to the little guys with this expansion.[/quote]

You should have a little more insight into people when making such claims. I have spent many hours of frustration, work, stress, and other such mangerial experiences pulling together and leading what is now a tight group of people in my guild. I still work very hard every day I can on everquest to advance further.

I'm not fuggin pampered, you are the child that wants the rewards that I, the people in my guild, and other guilds like us have been working our asses off for.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well, the little guys got fed up like they always eventually do and their throwing the Tzar out of the castle, their guillotinizing the Royal family and coming up with the metric system, and they're declaring indepence from the offshore Imperialist pigs in wigs.[/quote]

No, you got motivated to actually do something instead of spend your casual game time grinding mobs. I don't put you down for doing what you did, but I have my right to dislike others causing myself and my guild grief.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The quests? I laugh. That's the "Let them eat cake!" answer. And how long would it take 100 people to do those quests? Competing for the same items that spawn infrequently? Oh yes, you'd like people to do the quests I'm sure. That way they'd never get to your exclusive zones. [/quote]

Take note, that I pointed out the quest because people were pointing out that they were cramed into 2 zones with nothing else to do. BS I say.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you want exclusive access to content then either:

a) Hire SOE to write a zone for your guild.
b) Play something that isn't a MMORPG, like NWN, you can just play with your non-idiot friends.[/quote]

No, I work hard on a daily bases to beat the challenges that SoE has set forth in the game. There has been extremely challenging Content in Everquest since the original release back in 1999. And Verant (now SoE), know that they have to provide content to satisfy the large player base that wants to do the most challenging content.

Planes of Power was largely designed to seperate high end guilds.

I get so fed up with hearing casual gamers that want Vex Thal quality loot and other such items on extremely trivial encounters. Where a guild has to work their asses off to reach those achievements. Those people want the lazy way out. Tons of people complain that they will never see emperor, that it will take them months and months just to get keyed let alone a shot at it. Then months and months of Vex Thal farming if they actually got Emperor. Well, my guild worked our asses off and finished off 60-70 emperor keys within 5 weeks, and 60-70 vex thal keys within 3-4 weeks of downing emperor. It's called putting effort into it. And now, we do not play 10 hours a day, most of us have jobs and only play in the evenings during our free time.

Sorry my friend, I work hard for my guild and my guild works hard for each other. And we are rewarded by seeing more content, just like other guilds like us. We are most certainly not crying about how we don't have the ability to do Rallos Zek because we don't have the gear, the numbers, or lack the ability to put forth some effort. We actually release that this is a Roleplaying game, and everything IS NOT going to be handed to you on a silver platter.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>When the #2 guild on my server gets into the elemental planes, its gonna be way overcrowded... and when #3.... etc etc.... if verant suddenly removed all flag requirements.. you guys wouldn't be happy. All the good spots would be taken, and you'd be stuck in valor yet again. Logic dictates that those with more time to play get the better spots/gear/drops.[/quote]


For my part, you may keep your elemental planes. However, being consigned to the graveyard of Valor for practically all endeavors is not the answer either. Tier 3 zones are small. There just isn't enough room. What do you expect people to do, just quit because they don't want to impose upon your provate playground? Hope that they enjoy sub-sub-optimal xping in the old world? Or maybe that they will all delevel to 60 and stay in the old world? None of thes wishes are thing that the majority of the player base is going to be content to do. Telling people to be satisfied with the table scraps is never going to fly, not when even one person thinks that you have got something hidden in the pantry.

And btw, I never said it wasn't possible to get to 65 without getting tons of flags, I only said it wasn't fun. I play to have fun, not to experience the grind that is my RL job. Thanks for your wisdom, though.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>BTW, *I* did get 65 in just PoV/PoS (most of it came from Nightmare)... another druid got 65 in just Nightmare (first 65 druid on the server ). So if we can do it... so can you =).[/quote]

No argument from me here, you are absolutely right, if your only goal is to get to 65, then you can do it without advancing past tier1, but if you ever want any spells past 62, you have to be in ATLEAST tier3 for xp groups, or a full raid in PoS killing bosses.

I've been solo'ing in HoH for the past 2 or 3 weeks to get my spectrals. I have exactly 3 spells, and 1 dupe!!! That's just sickening. So, how would you suppose we get our spells? Buy them from the top guild on the server that is selling them from 30k-800k? Sorry, most of us don't have that kind of cash since we don't have the corner on the market as the tier1 guilds do. C'mon, can you imagine how gimp you would have felt at 65 with only part of your ethereals, none of your specs and none of your runes??

I'm trying to be understanding, but every person that replies just says, it's been done, you can do it.. ugh. I'm flagged and keyed most of the way, and I'm having a hard time getting my spells. I absolutely can't imagine what it would be like to be 65 and stuck in the tier1 planes... there are alot who are...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What you are saying is the valor is the graveyard of the unwashed masses...a bone thrown about by you via SOE for those deluded fools who think that their time is just as valuable as yours, so that they can continue to pay for you to have fun in your more private world and experience your best drops. I'm not seeing much logic here.[/quote]

No, he's stating that those that put more time and effort into the game and it's content should be better rewarded. And I totally agree with him.

And he's also stating that when you have 400 people in the elemental planes, you're just going to bitch at SoE yet again saying there isn't anything to do and the game is overcrowded.

And the high end guilds will get trained, yelled at, ninja'd from, and other bull**** becaues the nice big chunk of morons and idiots that will be there. Honestly, I hope your flag rebellion gets to the elemental planes. I can't wait to here about the stories of UberGuild #2 that was trained and wiped after killing Fennin Ro or something by some random_n00b who wanted to ninja a flag for PoTime.

But when I think about the above, I'll think of all the hard work I did for my guild, all the hardwork my guild did to get there, and then how upset they will be by idiots such as that ruining the game for them. And I pray that SoE does implement methods to minimize the potention of such BS from happening before it starts.

You may think that is a elitest attitude, but you have to picture something in your life that you enjoyed and possibly worked hard on, and then someone coming in and trashing it. And think how you might feel.

You don't have rights to everything just because you give Sony 12.95 a month. You have rights to play the game and they provide you with challenges for you to overcome. And they provide challenges for the hardcore players and uber guilds to overcome. You can't expect every single expansion to be tailored to the casual player.

Kunark -> Tons of good zones for Casual players
Velious -> Good zones for Casual Players, Real Content for High End Players
Luclin -> Tons of zones for Casual players, Great New Content for High End Players

At this point the high end game is crowded beyond belief, guilds fighting over spawns more and more, complaining there is not enough to do, GMs having to solve more and more disputes between large guilds, etc etc.

The High End players deserve their content as well.

Hence forth, Planes of Powers was release and if you had actually read the original description of the game, you might understand what I'm talking about more. Which basically it spoke of how only the most skilled and talented advertures would be able to traverse deep into the planes, or something like that. In anycase, PoP had a large design with Seperating the High end guilds out more, but with a unsucessful attempt to remove the timesinks of Luclin.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Have you tried the quests? I have, actually all the keys i have are from the side quests. There is no way a casual player will finish these quests withiin a reasonable amount of time. They are 10x's the effort of getting 100 people togehter to kill some dragon. Remember it takes a group just to get lucky for one piece for one group member. Then there are multiple pieces that arent easy to come by. I'm still trying to get my last Daiku medallion, and i cant tell you how many repeats i keep getting, and i exp in PoS desert often as it is.[/quote]

Welcome to what the High end guilds had to do for Every single person they wanted access to for Emperor Ssra, Lord Seru, and Vex Thal. Sucks that you have to actually do some work doesn't it?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> swear the only place i can really go pickup grouping seems to be PoV with any chance. The people with access to guild groups have such a significant grouping advantage over the ones that dont. Thank God i'm in one, or else POP would be twice the nightmare.

The side quests for key access are lame. I'd much rather do the 'REBELLION' thing to get access, its so much easier than putting yourself through all that pharming just to key one person outa your group. [/quote]

Well, do you think getting access to more zones where the large guilds are is going to help you get groups any better? Or perhaps, when 500 peopel from your server have acecss to all these zones it will just be as crowded again. Omg, then what will you do?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hence forth, Planes of Powers was release and if you had actually read the original description of the game, you might understand what I'm talking about more. Which basically it spoke of how only the most skilled and talented advertures would be able to traverse deep into the planes, or something like that. In anycase, PoP had a large design with Seperating the High end guilds out more, but with a unsucessful attempt to remove the timesinks of Luclin.[/quote]

Again, we are back to skill and talent. People non-uberguild tagged COULD have skill and talent too. The box should have said, "This expansion is geared toward the Uber guilds, if you aren't in one, and aren't satisfied with 4 zones, then don't purchase this product. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!"

Well, considering there are plenty of flag quests that casual players can do...

I would say there is roughly atleast 7, 2nd & 3rd teir planes that casual gamers can get to. Plus there is spots in 1st tier zones to grind as well, so that would expand that to around 11 zones.

But I guess you just can't be bothered by putting in some time and effort into achieving something can you? Your time is more valuable then the hardcore player.

"Welcome to what the High end guilds had to do for Every single person they wanted access to for Emperor Ssra, Lord Seru, and Vex Thal. Sucks that you have to actually do some work doesn't it?"


But you were justly rewarded right? I mean dont tell me you did that at the time so you could rule POP. You didnt know a thing about POP back then. You did it for the loots, and thats EXACTLY what you got rewarded with. So why do you include POP as part of your reward for having done Vex Thall when you didnt know a thing about POP during that time anyways. Most players in EQ clearly, and obvioiusly dont have the time to pharm Seru or Vex Thall keys. So your saying 3/4's of POP is only meant for you until everyone else does Vex THall and Seru? Talk about me, me, me :P

You should understand how fortunate and spoiled you are by POP. This relates to this discussion because theres a big difference between whats been exclusive Uber player content in the past, and whats now exclusive Uber content for POP. You only had 1 or 2 zones exclusive to you in the past. Now 3/4's of an expansion is exclusive Uber content, something you seem to justify with your examples of 'hard work'. In the past at least people werent crammed into 1/4 of the expansion. In the past at least they could venture to other expansions/zones to play in. With POP, they are limited to those handful of zones period.

The selfishness of some of you is really sad.

btw, i can argue the side quests i've done have taken more 'work/effort' than your 20 minutes kills of AD, Behemoth, etc.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But I guess you just can't be bothered by putting in some time and effort into achieving something can you? Your time is more valuable then the hardcore player. [/quote]

More assumptions. You seemed fairly informed in your first few posts, but you are being just as elitest and narrow-minded as the rest of your counterparts. You don't know me, and you don't know what I'm flagged for. Moreover, you don't know how much time or effort I put into the game. If I told you I came back to the game after a year about 3 monthes ago... would you believe me? If I told you that I wearing a Foreman's tunic as my best piece of gear when I came back? I was level 39. In 3 monthes, I leveled (grouping, NOT solo'ing until now occassionally in HoH for specs) from 39-63. I have 10 AA's which is nothing compared to alot of you. I am in nearly full ToV gear, and what I'm not wearing is in the bank ready to be quested when I can get giant faction (bah @ giant faction!). I'm wearing mid-high level gear that I worked and died alot for. I camped the Elysians for my full set of gear when I came back. That's right, I got off my @#%$ and helped my situation. Please don't assume that because I'm in the casual camp in this argument that I didn't work to get where I'm at or that I don't put the time in to be successful. I would consider my level of play to be fairly successful considering where I came from 3 monthes ago, yet I don't need to run around telling my RL bud who is still wearing old world gear that he is less than me. Just not good policy to make folks feel inferior, it tends to enrage them, and force them to do things to "prove themselves" . Pana gave everyone the oppertunity to do just that.

"Well, do you think getting access to more zones where the large guilds are is going to help you get groups any better? Or perhaps, when 500 peopel from your server have acecss to all these zones it will just be as crowded again. Omg, then what will you do?"


Like i stated, i'm not in that position, but i pointed it out because of the extra issues guildless players have doing POP keys. But now that you bring that up, your correct that the side quests are pretty stupid because even if you do get access, you cant experience until more people you know get access as well. So thanks for helping me with the point that the side quests are even dumber and more pointless than they currently are.

Mass flaggings is definitely the better way to go than side quests for that reason alone.

"Well, considering there are plenty of flag quests that casual players can do...

I would say there is roughly atleast 7, 2nd & 3rd teir planes that casual gamers can get to. Plus there is spots in 1st tier zones to grind as well, so that would expand that to around 11 zones."


Please dont pretend to know about the side quests and casual players unless you've actually done them yourself. Until then you have no clue whats involved, or just how practical they are for casual players.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But you were justly rewarded right? I mean dont tell me you did that at the time so you could rule POP. You didnt know a thing about POP back then. You did it for the loots, and thats EXACTLY what you got rewarded with. So why do you include POP as part of your reward for having done Vex Thall when you didnt know a thing about POP during that time anyways. Most players in EQ clearly, and obvioiusly dont have the time to pharm Seru or Vex Thall keys. So your saying 3/4's of POP is only meant for you until everyone else does Vex THall and Seru? Talk about me, me, me :P[/quote]

First, my guild farmed Emperor Keys, Bane Weapons, and Seru Banes during the month of November 2002. Planes of Power was out and released. We sacrificed Grind Time and exploring new content in favor of keying ourselfs quickly.

We got our first kill of emperor due to 2 guilds killing him all the time, in the middle of January. We have since then pretty much had a monopoly on Emperor. On Seru we're the 2nd on the server to kill him and the only guild that kills him now.

We have been farming Vex Thal keys for the past 3 to 4 weeks and have keyed ourselves.

Did I say at any time that you should do Emperor, Vex Thal, or Seru in order to do PoP? No. But I'm saying that we have actually done those timesinks and got past them in order to achieve the goals we wanted. All I said to you, was that it's not like the hardcore guilds get pampered. We've had to work our asses off. Plus considering that such mobs only pop once every 7 days (14 days in Seru's case), the competition over such mobs is great among the guilds that can do them. We are not pampered here either.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You should understand how fortunate and spoiled you are by POP. This relates to this discussion because theres a big difference between whats been exclusive Uber player content in the past, and whats now exclusive Uber content for POP. You only had 1 or 2 zones exclusive to you in the past. Now 3/4's of an expansion is exclusive Uber content, something you seem to justify with your examples of 'hard work'. In the past at least people werent crammed into 1/4 of the expansion. In the past at least they could venture to other expansions/zones to play in. With POP, they are limited to those handful of zones period.[/quote]

How am I spoiled in Planes of Power? Becasue I have to kill Aerin`Dar, Grummus, and other such pathetically out of whack Risk vs Reward mobs to flag new people to my guild every so often. Even though we hate doing it?

Am I spoiled because as my guild progresses pass Mith Marr, Agnarr, Saryn, Bertox, and Rallos Zek, that perhaps we won't even really use any of those lame @#%$ zones we had to pass up?

Am I spoiled because in the end, there will be 2-4 (or more) high end guilds cramed into 4 Elemental Planes and the Plane of Time?

You have Ways to acesss easily through quests every single zone below the Elemental planes. Why the hell do you say you are cramed into 2 zones? I find that arguement total BS.

3/4ths of the content in Planes of Power is a boring waste of time with Rewards that suck @#%$ and don't even meet that of Vex Thal.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The selfishness of some of you is really sad.[/quote]

The lazy attitudes and amount of crying some of you do because you think you deserve everything baby fed to you is really sad.

I"ve looked at them...but I haven't done them, seeing as I don't need to.

1. Farming parts for my Ring of the Shissar (Emp Key)
2. Farming plenty of stuff for Seru Banes
3. Farming Emperor Rings for 70 other guild members
4. Farming Ore for 30-40 melee for shissar bane weapons
5. Farming parts for my Vex Thal Key
6. Farming shards for 70 other guild members for their VT keys.
7. Farming Reports, Praeleaders, and lame Seru stuff ro the key to Seru

I've done plenty of BS quests. I've put in effort to achieve the goals I wanted achieved. Dont' complain to me that I don't know what it's like to camp BS.

But I guess my guild wiping to Grummus 5 or 6 times till we got him figured out, makes us pampered. Perhaps our 4-5 wipes on Aerin`Dar before we got him? Perhaps the wipes we've had on Halls of Honor trials? Perhaps the wipes we had on Behemoth? Guess we are pampered because we work hard to get to the next level. And you complain that it sucks you have to do a key quest that takes a few hours and that it takes us 20 minutes. Well, for your information, it doesn't take 20 minutes when you are first learning. It takes hours, blood, sweat, stress, and plenty of motivation.

I personally don't care if you use 150 people to kill a mob to get flags. I've never stated that it is wrong. I may call it a zerg, but I haven't stated it's wrong or shouldn't be done. But I don't think you should be blaming the high end guilds for getting slandered and get slightly peeved that their hard work gets destroyed by the damage output of such large forces.

please, enough exaggeration.

my guild wiped once to aerin dar, then succeeded.

once to behemoth, then succeeded.

killed terris on first attempt.

have wiped maybe once to a couple of the POS giant lords.

wiped 2x on carpin cycle then succeeded.

*and we are not VT or ST geared*

... dont exaggerate the difficulty of these encounters, or of "learning" them. very few guilds are wiping out 4 or 5 times while "learning" these encounters. if they do, i suggest something is amiss. yes, im extremely happy about our victories, yes, a victory *after* a defeat is that much sweeter.

but do i begrudge people getting in to these zones in other ways, such as mass flagging?

Hell No. I want lotsa people in these zones so i can get a group =P

empty zones = wasted zones.

I just dont get how you consider 20 min repeat kills of AD, Grummus, etc. 'hard work'. Your Vex THall keys were 'hard work' something you worked for, and were rewarded accordingly. Just like me completing the side quests(which took weeks of exp'ing and camping) were much harder work than your 20 min quick killls of those mobs. The reality is you have every zone of POP at your disposal to see, explore, exp, and raid. Whether you think Elemental planes is the only one you give a damn about is only your spoiled opinion when others cant even access more than a handful.

I guess you just have no idea what its like for people who are so limited in where they can experience, you take the fact that you have a whole expansion at your fingertips for granted. I mean if you wanna really talk about 'hard work', anyone thats completed the side quests have done twice as much hard work as your whole guild has to get flagged in 20 mins.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>First, my guild farmed Emperor Keys, Bane Weapons, and Seru Banes during the month of November 2002. Planes of Power was out and released. We sacrificed Grind Time and exploring new content in favor of keying ourselfs quickly.

We got our first kill of emperor due to 2 guilds killing him all the time, in the middle of January. We have since then pretty much had a monopoly on Emperor. On Seru we're the 2nd on the server to kill him and the only guild that kills him now.

We have been farming Vex Thal keys for the past 3 to 4 weeks and have keyed ourselves.[/quote]
Waste of time. Just go to elemental planes. Of course once 10 guilds are in the elemental planes I guess VT can give you somethign to do.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>... dont exaggerate the difficulty of these encounters, or of "learning" them. very few guilds are wiping out 4 or 5 times while "learning" these encounters. if they do, i suggest something is amiss. yes, im extremely happy about our victories, yes, a victory *after* a defeat is that much sweeter."[/quote]

I don't exaggerate, we had some problems initiate in PoP. Most of us were not 65 (heck dunno if half of us was even 63) when we first started attempting Aerin`dar and Grummus. We had problems with zone crashes and superior lag that caused problems. We litterally had the zone crash during 3 of our initial attempts with Aerin`Dar. We had people with DSL connections get ping rates of 9k during Grummus attempts. We had to deal with the extreme aggro of healers and the like.

Does that make us a sucky guild, hell no. We've secured our place as one of the top ranking guilds on Rocet since we formed together 6 months ago. But, we did work hard to get where we are, and our happy with our victories.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I just dont get how you consider 20 min repeat kills of AD, Grummus, etc. 'hard work'. [/quote]

Well for one, we hate doing both these encounters.

Especially Aerin`Dar, he's just a fight you engage with basic strategy and hope the adds or AE don't kill you. Even with crowd control, a minor position problem, bad luck on resists, or other stuipd factors can easily cause a loss. Although, we've been successful each time, doesn't mean the many deaths during the battle doesn't suck. Plus the fact that moving 40-60 people from Zone in to Aerin`Dar can be a countless pain in the @#%$ with people training us, us picking up mobs, accidental trains on others, or people dying from other trains and having to drag them. It takes around 40-60 minutes to setup and kill Aerin`Dar.

Grummus is similar, you have to move your raid over to the castle. Which can take a decent 15-30 minutes depending on how fast your folks arrive in the zone. Then you have to clear to Grummus which depending on your numbers can take 15-30 minutes. Although, we used to pull him outside, having done him since the change.

But still have some stupid deaths and perhaps some people go LD during a zone or something. And when that projection only stays up for like 5-6 minutes, and they come back and it's gone. And you realize you have to come do the BS again for that person.

Having to do these stupid encounters time and time again to make sure everyone in your guild has the necessary flags is hard work. You may think, oh I got my flag I'm done and home free. Try it our way. Then we can choose if we don't want to accept new members that don't have that flag or not. And then folks complain, oh I can't get into these high end guilds unless I have such and such flags it sucks. But if we didn't require it, that means now we have to go back and do it again just to flag your @#%$.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your Vex THall keys were 'hard work' something you worked for, and were rewarded accordingly. Just like me completing the side quests(which took weeks of exp'ing and camping) were much harder work than your 20 min quick killls of those mobs.[/quote]

Yea, Vex Thal keys gave us access to a zone that takes countless hours to clear, easy as hell to wipe if 1 mob gates, and is boredom factor beyond that of Vex Thal key farming. But hey, it's good loot.

And if it took you weeks to farm the key parts for 1 key, I have to ask how much effort you really put into it. Does your key require more time then the mob flag? Yes. Does it require more work? No, because for a guild that has spent hours and hours working together, building up a team work within itself is our work. And our reward of progressing faster is the ability to kill these mobs and not have to spend time farming keys for 60 to 70 people AGAIN.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The reality is you have every zone of POP at your disposal to see, explore, exp, and raid. Whether you think Elemental planes is the only one you give a damn about is only your spoiled opinion when others cant even access more than a handful.[/quote]

And here I have stated, again and again. Every person can get access to 3/4ths of the content by just doing the key quests. High end guilds have done their hours of work and continue to do hours of work for their ways of accessing the zones.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I guess you just have no idea what its like for people who are so limited in where they can experience, you take the fact that you have a whole expansion at your fingertips for granted. I mean if you wanna really talk about 'hard work', anyone thats completed the side quests have done twice as much hard work as your whole guild has to get flagged in 20 mins. [/quote]

This kind of attitude is so full of @#%$, it's sickening.

The months of building teamwork, farming gear, key parts, and overcoming challenges totally outclasses any work you do on a single key.

Here's the interesting part.

Eelyens situation bit depends on who you ask. In my eyes they aren't really an uberguild. I'd call them an "up and coming" guild, which will probably end up as #3 on the server and then get stuck there unless something drastic happens in #1 or #2.

Their equipment level when PoP came out was... well... abysmal. My guild averaged like double stats compared to them, yet they worked pretty hard to fill the void that was left mostly because Ascent totally left Luclin for PoP. And they got some stuff killed to gear up, and then killed more things to gain more gear etc.

Now they are moving up sorta slowly in PoP because there are three guilds ahead of them... we don't do tier 1-3 mobs anymore, but the current #2 and #3 certainly do. #2 just got RZ down and is doing reflagging which means everything will be dead for Eelyens bunch to even see. They aren't really anywhere that casual players couldn't be at this point I don't think. PoTorment maybe, but I haven't really followed their progress lately.

Not sure what they are getting "easily". I grant that Ascent scored with some stuff being among the first on any server to these zones (HoHA and a spectral on every 3rd mob for example), but I don't think you can say that of Anthology (Eelyens guild). They have worked hard for all they can, and only thing they have to show for it vs casual lvl 65s is some VT gear, LESS spells and access to one worthless zone (PoTorment). Yet they don't seem discouraged, nor willing to go for a 150man raid (though one member of theirs was offering me 1000$ way back when for us to kill Grummus for them, but that's a different story :P).

The funniest part is that I'm not really sure where they can possibly go that'd give them a significant edge against the "casuals" advancing. Yes they can eventually get all the gods up to RZ which will give the the Tower of Solusek Ro to go on the side of Plane of Torment for zones which most casual players can not access (though Terris Thule _IS_ 24mannable with super gear, should be easy as hell with 50 given 3-4 attempts).

Why not to the elemental planes you say?
While we are probably in Plane of Time by now, we will also be competing away all the elemental gods from the #2 guild, which will force them to just farm the elemental armor. Now this means they will have rather little to kill really, AND they most certainly do not want to share it. Because of that, they will probably keep RZ down to prevent Eelyens bunch from learning it... until they have access to PoTime themselves. And this is totally ignoring the current #3 guild, which has worked with the #2 guild to block Eelyens guild before.

It's hard on the top, it's sorta hard on the bottom, but I'd have to say it's hardest in the middle. You people might have a valid case that PoP has pampered me (Ascent) some, but against Eelyen I just don't see it.

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Let's have a reality check moment.

Uber guilds in tier 4, take a deep breath and relax. As much as I wish it weren't the case, it's going to take the open raids a long, long time to get to tier 4. The reason is the lovely bottlenecks that slowed you down from getting there are even worse for us, because we have more people to get through and spottier attendance.

For instance, we've done 3-4 Aerin'Dar raids getting probably 400+ people flagged for HoH (which is still quite uncrowded, FYI), yet we had less than 100 show up for the HoHB trials. And we had about 30 show up for our first forray to HoHB. I'm willing to bet that in order to get Mithaniel Marr we're going to have to get a lot more people flagged through the HoH Trials. Rydda'Dar was no cakewalk, but I bet we'll do better next time. That's only one small piece of the total thing that needs to be done to get to tier 4.

I'm guessing that in order to really get to tier 4 would take someone doing these raids full time on the weekends for probably 3-4 months if not longer. Probably more like 6 months. I certainly don't have that sort of time to devote to them. Most guilds have raids to do on the weekends so doing it every weekend as opposed to once every few weeks or once a month just isn't practical.

What I suspect would be a more streamlined approach would be having guilds work together to get to tier 4. Even so, it's gonna be slow progress, especially if you don't want to leave behind guildmates.

So as much as I'd love to be in tier 4 to be able to say "neener" to the likes of Cronuus, Evelyn and Matafleur. It just isn't going to happen that quickly. I think this is probably why the Drinal guild in tier 4 doesn't feel threatened by the DFR. They're sensible folks. They see the utility in using the mechanism for getting their unflagged folks caught up to them, but they realize it isn't a big threat.

I started the DFR to get folks to new zones and we are doing that. People that felt hopelessly stuck in tier 2 have more options open and are having fun again. People are fleshing out their spell books and acquiring the all too rare piece of new loot. And people like me who love to explore new zones and try new challenges are finally getting to do what we thought we'd be doing when we bought this expansion.

If I never set foot in Plane of Valor again, it'll be too soon.

GO GO REBELLION GUYS! (BTW: You other servers really need to get this going too)

Edit: About the struggling Evelyn and her guild... Back in the old days neighbors would come together to raise barns. It'd go a whole lot faster than trying to build a barn all by yourself. They'd also help one another harvest their crops. People depended on each other to get the big tasks done.

If you want to go it alone, do so, but don't be jealous of the folks who help each other out and get their barns built in time for the cows to stay warm and happy in the winter. And who get their crops in before the rains spoil them. I don't necessarily see the anti-social guy building his barn all by himself as being morally superior because of his work ethic. If he worked with his neighbors they'd all be winning instead they're trying to burn down each others barns in order to corner the market on milk and beef.

Delheru has Anthology nailed pretty close. But, we do have access to all pre-elemental zones except Temple of Marr and Sol Tower. The only reason we haven't advanced as far (or closer) into PoP as the #2 and #3 is because we spent atleast 2-3 months of PoP mainly focusing on getting Emperor ready and getting into Vex Thal. Plus we have nailed a couple server 2nds and were able to key for emperor in about a months time instead of over a long period like alot of guilds, which I think is pretty respectable.

I honestly don't care if we are labeled a "Uber" Guild or a "Up and coming" guild. All I want is the ability to see as much content in this game as possible. And I will do what it takes to overcome that content (within reason of course). And with that statement, I did create Anthology back in Late Aug 02 with the Explicit goal of taking out emperor and getting into Vex Thal.

Considering I was actually not able to play Everquest the first month my guild was around and it survived was luck. Then during the month of October, we jumped straight into NToV, we had very few poeple that had actually had NToV experience (like myself, which I had been in it for over a year.). At the start of November we were able to take down the Avatar of War within days of PoP's release with half of us not even having the expansion and only like 2-4 people who were actually level 62. Five weeks later, we made our first emperor attempt. And despite very heavy competition for Emperor, we finally took him out about a month later in mid january. Now we are Vex Thal keyed and focusing heavily on PoP. We achieved the goals we set when we formed the guild.

So anyone can call us any kind of guild they want, I just call us a "Determined" Guild. But I will use "Uber" guild for arguements sake :P

It's true we really aren't anywhere in PoP that a casual group couldn't get to, save Plane of Tactics which it's key quest is a tad more painful. But in anycase, now that we are in Vex Thal, the other guilds above us can easily expect us to advance at a faster rate in PoP now that we have lots more time on our hands to do it. We achieved the goals "we" wanted to achieve. Whether some think our focusing on getting Vex Thal able over heading to the elemental planes or not was a bad choice is there opinion.

But, considering what Delheru said about loot in the elementals, I think we made the right choice. Most undoubtly we will be in the Elemental planes with 3 other guilds, which will leave alot to be desired for loot. So, with Vex Thal under our belt we have a great source of very good loot to continue to gear while we do other things now.

Overall, we have worked very hard day in and day out as guild. And I hate getting slandered as being spoiled in PoP, or say that we have elitest attitudes, when all we are is wary of outsiders (<em>ie getting trained after killing a mob, by someone who wanted to ninja a flag off our time, sweat, death, and teamwork</em>).

And again, I don't think there is anything horribly wrong with getting 150-200 people together to Zerg kill Aerin`Dar or Grummus. With you MT'd or not, it's still a Zerg in my opinion. But, you still get props for being able to organize a force of such random people. I just will continue to argue when someone states that casual players do not have a way of getting out of the 2nd teir zones. There are methods there, and they are not that hard.

I view paying for EQ/Exspantion like buying a lump of clay....

I dont think by buying a lump of clay you should be entitled to being able to craft masterpeice (Elemental Planes Plane of time) Or beable to (Whats the word that means to make something with pottery?... Oh well I'll just use) Build a "Good" Pot, (Teir 3)

Depending on how much time, dedication, skill, and tools (Gear/Guild, using guild as a term to desribe a force that unites for acommon goal, not nesicarily a more or less permament guild, dictates how good your pottery is, (how far you advance in EQ)

Given the same token, I dont think that the "DFR" 0r lacks these four components. Lower Quality Tools (Gearwise), but more of them.. /shrug Same end result... (Please dont take this as an insult, i'm not calling anyone low quality)

Although I also think there should be a limit to what you can achieve without getting the better tools. 10 really exspensive, good quality pottery wheels, should beable to make, faster and bettery pottery then 10 normal pottery wheels. (Not really sure where the limit should be..... I'll admit I'd be biased, as I think almost everyone would be, as everyone casual, uber, semi uber etc, beleives they game should be more customed to "them" )

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hence forth, Planes of Powers was release and if you had actually read the original description of the game, you might understand what I'm talking about more. Which basically it spoke of how only the most skilled and talented advertures would be able to traverse deep into the planes, or something like that.[/quote]

Ok, I will have to mention that it doesn't sound as though you know what the original description is either. Basically the box doesn't say much of anything.

"Untold Treasures Await Those with the Strength to Find Them"

"Incredible new combat modes, planar zones, and monster types heighten the level of strategy and push team skills to the limit, ultimately separating the weak from the resilient."

"20 new planar zones full of scripted events and dynamic content that will challenge the most skilled players."

"A central story-line links the content from every zone into one compelling quest."

"You're in Our World Now"

That's about all you can get from the unopened box. Its not information, its MARKETING! How you can possibly infer from these vague statements that this means that YOU, Sage Eelyen of the Nexus, and your closest companions and a few rival guilds are the ONLY people who could possibly make it to the elemental planes, is beyond me. This is a bunch of marketing BS. Its no different from horoscopes and fortune-telling. It could apply to anything or any situation. Please, dont delude yourself in this.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> In anycase, PoP had a large design with Seperating the High end guilds out more, but with a unsucessful attempt to remove the timesinks of Luclin.[/quote]

I think you are confusing the <em>effect</em> that the design has had from its <em>intention</em>. I don't know for sure what was in the hearts and minds of the designers, but I think its fairly safe to say that they

1. Didn't want to tick off a bunch of players

and

2. Wanted to figure out a way to extend the life of Original Everquest, to keep the player base from moving out. I mean, its fairly cheap to maintain at this point.

Well, they got it wrong. PoP is not well designed for the masses of people who were already 60 but not in high-end guilds. Some have found ways around this (such as Panamah's large flagging Rebellion). Anyone who is obtaining flags is doing so despite the design flaws that make it more tedious. To say that everyone who is not in the top 3-4 guilds on their server is a n00b and will only cause trains and personal angst to those of you who are, is really quite statement. Sorry if my rather embarrassingly old-fashioned Nature Walker's Scimitar causes giggles amongst your companions.

Where do you get off thinking that people who aren't in the top 3-4 guilds on a server dont' "work hard" at the game, whatever that even really means? Maybe it means people found friends and loyalty and stuck with it. Maybe it means they like to read to their small children every night at 8 pm for 30 minutes. Or help their spouse cook a meal 3 nights a week, or go to church on a given evening, or found a good book they wanted to read, or had a nasty head cold and didn't want the aggravation of playing for a few nights. People don't deserve to be crowded up into a few zones killing yard trash over and over because of that. That is not the high-end guild person's fault, either. Its SOE's lack of foresight.

Again, ladies and gentlemen, why don't we stop bickering about who is the most righteous here and simply accept that PoP is overcrowded, people aren't leaving and aren't likely too in the massive numbers one once might have thought, flagging events are a horrendous waste of anyone's time, and there is poor itemization. Those are some issues on which maybe we can all agree. Since the solutions are not ours to make, and since its clear that ultimately PoP will not support the vast numbers of players who are 60+ now and who are racing to 60+ with unprecedented speed, then why don't we ask/beg/demand SOE provide MORE ZONES for us to play in where we may stay out of each other's way as much as is humanly possible, since that is obviously what most people want. Personally, I will settle for more variety and better drop rates on my spells.

Nobody will ever agree on this. Just like politics and abortion, there can be no mutually agreeable solution.

10 freaking pages and I *still* don't know where to get an oober bowler hat like MF's?! WTF?!

no new siggy with Catherine for joo!

/agree Kinare

This is definitely one of those arguments where no one is really ever going to change their mind.

But why it ever became an argument in the first place is beyond me. I guess the parade-pissers-on-ers just aren't happy until it devolves into one.

Oh the finest of the droogs get bowler hats, and yes, my druid is a droog now. ;)


<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">I view paying for EQ/Exspantion like buying a lump of clay....

I dont think by buying a lump of clay you should be entitled to being able to craft masterpeice (Elemental Planes Plane of time) Or beable to (Whats the word that means to make something with pottery?... Oh well I'll just use) Build a "Good" Pot, (Teir 3)

Depending on how much time, dedication, skill, and tools (Gear/Guild, using guild as a term to desribe a force that unites for acommon goal, not nesicarily a more or less permament guild, dictates how good your pottery is, (how far you advance in EQ)</blockquote>

What a dumb analogy. I'm sorry.

PoP isn't like buying a lump of clay. For some it's buying 1/4 a lump because that's what you end up with over time. Try as you may.

What I think they should do is limit flags per kill to either 72 and 36, and MAKE THE @#%$ ZONE OPENING QUESTS A LOT EASIER. The huge zergs roaming around are no real problem as long as they stay at tier3 and under, but Verant simply can't afford to let them to tier4, which is actually a lot smaller than most of you people realize (despite it being 4 zones). As an example we had NPCs alive in Plane of Earth B down to 12 (the rathe bunch) with no respawns yet... wow, now that would be fun with another guild wouldn't it?

To repeat: I agree with your gripe (yes you should be able to progress to the end of tier3), but I think the method being used is overkill and VERY unhealthy for the game. If you said it was just used to knock some sense to Verant I'd applaud you. As it is I fear you'll just totally undermine the whole game, and/or force Verant to make extremely unpopular changes to the tier4-5 mobs :/


-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

It's only been out for what...3 months?

Kinda sucks that 90% of the EQ population isn't in Elemental planes yet eh?

My predictions based on previous SoE behavior.

1) They will limit the number of people that can get flagged on one kill. It will likely be a hack-o-rama (tm) and very unPOPular (pun intended). The mechanism by which they do this will have to be changed no less than 3 times. On the second change we will hear a lot about "working as intended" until the final change is made.

2) They will make the encounters harder. The first rule in EQ is that the ones who get there first get the most and then those that follow have a tougher time

3) Bards will get broken on the next patch again :)

From what Terimoon posted about the EQ box I saw nothing that said

"High level raid expansion"

Eelyen said

"And the high end guilds will get trained, yelled at, ninja'd from, and other bull**** becaues the nice big chunk of morons and idiots that will be there. Honestly, I hope your flag rebellion gets to the elemental planes. I can't wait to here about the stories of UberGuild #2 that was trained and wiped after killing Fennin Ro or something by some random_n00b who wanted to ninja a flag for PoTime."

Hmm. How about the high end guilds who deliberately train, KS, and C*ckblock the smaller guilds to thwart progress, and KS mobs that the smaller guilds are attempting to learn. That never happens, yeah right. And why do they do it? The smaller guilds aren't worthy.

"Kunark -> Tons of good zones for Casual players
Velious -> Good zones for Casual Players, Real Content for High End Players
Luclin -> Tons of zones for Casual players, Great New Content for High End Players"

In other words, my guild is in PoP and we don't want you here. You can play at half experience or less killing light blue mobs.

Delhuru said

"What I think they should do is limit flags per kill to either 72 and 36, and MAKE THE @#%$ ZONE OPENING QUESTS A LOT EASIER. The huge zergs roaming around are no real problem as long as they stay at tier3 and under"

Sure your in the elemental planes so throw us a bone with tier 1-3. Just don't let us spoil your hunting grounds.

Both of you take your elitist attitudes and shove it.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Kinda sucks that 90% of the EQ population isn't in Elemental planes yet eh?</blockquote>

(edited) It's not about being in the elemental planes; it's about having more than the initial planes, especially when xping in other zones, as some noted above, is easier than Storms. That was one given example.

"Kinda sucks that 90% of the EQ population isn't in Elemental planes yet eh?"


Nah, its actually worse that the 'masses' are trapped in a handful of zones out of the numerous zones that exist in EQ, where there are basically little to no reward worth a damn anymore and they wonder what the point in logging in anymore is when its the same handful of zones beating you to death over and over again with the same crummy rare loot drops.

Meanwhile the Uber elite are pharming mass spectrals, runes, molds, etc. in the higher tier planes and have had the luxury of early mass loot drop rates as well. Vendoring them off at outrageous prices to the 'masses'. They attempt to justify the jailing of the 'masses' because they didnt 'work hard enough' to move on when the reality of it is the poor design of Verant who is making the 'masses' the scapegoat for their screw-ups.

And once the 'masses' figure out a reasonable way to move on via the mass flaggings, the Uber elite demean them and want Verant to put them back in their prisons again.

Its basically the spoiled defending their spoils, and Verant punishing the 'masses' for their lack of foresight.

I for one dont see what is wrong with zerging. Larger armies can more easily accomplish what smaller armies cannot do easily. Its not a lack of strategy, just a different one. The common people become as powerful as the uber aristocracy by banding together and using their superior numbers.

You don't have 4 zones 61+, lots of velious/kunark/luclin spots are still Dblue at 61+.

"You don't have 4 zones 61+, lots of velious/kunark/luclin spots are still Dblue at 61+."


Just curious but do you go exp'ing in those non-POP places? Not raiding, i'm talking about exp'ing. Did you do it when you were 61? Betcha you were in POP, and you know the reason why, something i shouldnt even have to mention.

Dont be such a hypocrite with advice, it just makes you out to be a bigger @#%$.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">You don't have 4 zones 61+, lots of velious/kunark/luclin spots are still Dblue at 61+.</blockquote>

<font size=10>ROFL</font>

Let them eat cake!*







*I know it's not the real phrasing. Ask me about Marie-Antoinette some time.

This is the sort of person that makes me want to CB mobs. He's hostile to say the least, he's clearly not getting where he wants by normal means and he doesn't bother really reading the points that the other side makes. Who am I referring to? Your dear casualeq.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Sure your in the elemental planes so throw us a bone with tier 1-3. Just don't let us spoil your hunting grounds.

Both of you take your elitist attitudes and shove it.
[/quote]

You got it exactly right. I don't want you in my part of the sandbox, which is 5 zones out of maybe 150 or so in the game. I will do whatever is necessary to keep people like you away from my sandbox, and 'whatever is necessary' will almost certainly be sufficient.

Yet that's not the issue here imho. The issue is that while most of you haven't seen the highest end encounters, I have, and I can tell you Verant most certainly does not think of 100man+ as a tactic. Or the mobs are VERY, VERY poorly prepared for such an onslaught.

Either you accept that Verant was blind (shock!) to the effects of flags + lowhp mobs + zipping the datastream, or you assume that Verant likes the zerg and wants uberguilders to quit, elemental planes to become the hugest trainfests ever (once all have their flags, I daresay the revolution will dissolve to bickering factions, just like almost all revolutions have in the past history... either with someone taking total control or by moving to a capitalistic [hello current situation!] market economy) AND the expansion being finished several months before the next expansion... mmmm, wonder which one it is?

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

Cronuus we have been over that particular argument before on this board. The differential in amount of exp per mob killed in the pre-pop world makes it an incredibly inefficient venture to exp there. That is obvious to everyone who is 61+. There is nothing to gain by going there except epic pieces, loot raids or the occasional trip into nostalgia, none of which comprise the majority of most player's in-game time.

o - m - g

I am a dork....I didn't even make the Clockwork connection...


And how scary how much that works.../bow and scrape to MF

(hope thats what you ment if not change it please (/chuckle))

Delhuru

Oh my gosh the world would end if the Uber guilds would quit.

Let's see 4 uber guilds per server and 60 folks each guild with 2 accounts each (average) that means that if everyone in all 4 uber guilds quit there would be a total of 500ish less acounts per server.

Get a clue Delhuru each server has between 7000-10000 accounts active on it. If everyone from all 4 uber guilds quit you know what that would do. It would encourage the casual players to keep playing becuase more content would become available. All that would happen is the next 4 guilds in line on each server would move up the ladder that much more quickly.

SOE makes most of their money from casual players.

"I will do whatever is necessary to keep people like you away from my sandbox, and 'whatever is necessary' will almost certainly be sufficient."

You sound like the type to try to ruin other guilds chances on mobs just to keep content to yourself. So it doesn't matter that other guilds are good enough to do the encounters what matters is they aren't in your guild. Folks like you should be banned from the game. (Edited - I could of removed the entire post)

"Either you accept that Verant was blind (shock!) to the effects of flags + lowhp mobs + zipping the datastream, or you assume that Verant likes the zerg and wants uberguilders to quit"

Who says acceptance of zerg flag raids means that uberguilders will quit. That is your assumption. Flags were put in and made as hard as they were to slow progression because the damn expansion wasn't finished on release. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

"I daresay the revolution will dissolve to bickering factions, just like almost all revolutions have in the past history"

That is possible. Let me give you an uber nightmare though. Three or four others pick up the torch and lead the masses to more mass flaggings. Even with a limit of 72 flags per encounter there will be folks willing to work together to overcome that crap that SOE has designed. Not because they want to work together but becuase they have to work together. You forget that before the reason folks would eventually squabble and fall apart is division of loot. For these folks, flags are the loot. And if you got a 1 in 3 chance of getting a flag (72 flags vs 200 folks on raid) it is a better than a 1 in 6 chance of a getting a parchment (if one ever drops) or a nightmare bow staff in the lower tier zones.

Also I bet you think it is great for Ubers to flag their Bots on raids so you don't have to do the encounter again. Most uber guilds are doing it (it makes sense) but then folks like Pana get slammed for flagging folks that didn't participate in the raid. Uberguilds love those double standards.

BTW I do hear the arguments on the other side. You know what I hear. You're not worthy, You're not worthy.

Its less exp yes, but if you hate tier 1 pop zones so much why not go to older zones?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Let's see 4 uber guilds per server and 60 folks each guild with 2 accounts each (average) that means that if everyone in all 4 uber guilds quit there would be a total of 500ish less acounts per server. [/quote]

Your assumptions about the account numbers are funny. First of all I estimated Ascent alone might have 240 accounts with about 90 active people and 20 who still have their accounts open even if they aren't playing. And we are the smallest of the 4, so ~1000 would be a more realistic number really. Yet I grant it is lower than the number of those who are NOT in uberguilds.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Get a clue Delhuru each server has between 7000-10000 accounts active on it. [/quote]

So you're saying (by your estimates) 6760-9760 accounts are stuck in the early PoP zones. I dare call bs on that. Maybe 3000 or so (rather bold estimate really, esp with LoY coming out), but spread them through tier3, VT and Ssra and you suddenly have more content for them than there are for the uberguilds in the PoP endgame.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If everyone from all 4 uber guilds quit you know what that would do. It would encourage the casual players to keep playing becuase more content would become available. [/quote]

Nods. Uberguilds have always really drove hordes of people to retire. EQ is the only place where uberguilds really exist and can dominate content, ever since FoH locked down Vox and Nagafen. The high end content, and the scarcity of it are pretty much the 2 things that make EQ different from other MMORPGs. Why break something that isn't broken? Oh and you do realize fohguild.org gets about 50 times more hits than this board? So which board to listen to by your numbers = $$$ logic?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"I will do whatever is necessary to keep people like you away from my sandbox, and 'whatever is necessary' will almost certainly be sufficient."

You sound like the type to try to ruin other guilds chances on mobs just to keep content to yourself. So it doesn't matter that other guilds are good enough to do the encounters what matters is they aren't in your guild. Folks like you should be banned from the game. Congrats on showing everyone just how big of an @#%$ you are.[/quote]

Oh I let others practice encounters etc. I was referring to you. If you lead a guild on RN, yea I can see us not throwing even that bone that you so scornfully disgarded :p I'm pretty sure Tilien (#2 force on RN, actually an ALLIANCE btw... you don't have to have one huge guild) and Eelyen (#4) would agree with me. However most people in this thread I have absolutely no quarrel with, they seem reasonable and I agree that they have a very valid complaint in VI making only PoP zones viable for 61+ people and letting them only have 4 of them. I think flags weren't the major f*ckup, the most idiotic part was making everything else obsolete with the huge ZEMs.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Who says acceptance of zerg flag raids means that uberguilders will quit. That is your assumption. Flags were put in and made as hard as they were to slow progression because the damn expansion wasn't finished on release. Anyone with half a brain knows that.[/quote]

The flags weren't hard until maybe RZ. Now Coirnav and the current Xegony are different issues (anyone who thinks Rathe is even nearly unkillable is a fool and you can quote me on that), and their difficulty probably has a lot to do with PoTime being unfinished. However if you flagged every guild in the game up to elemental planes, uberguilds would have to fight for content, and if they lost to simply overwhelming numbers, I bet most would quit. Lord knows I would, simply because the game would have been trivialized too much for my liking.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"I daresay the revolution will dissolve to bickering factions, just like almost all revolutions have in the past history"

That is possible. Let me give you an uber nightmare though. Three or four others pick up the torch and lead the masses to more mass flaggings. Even with a limit of 72 flags per encounter there will be folks willing to work together to overcome that crap that SOE has designed. Not because they want to work together but becuase they have to work together. You forget that before the reason folks would eventually squabble and fall apart is division of loot. For these folks, flags are the loot. And if you got a 1 in 3 chance of getting a flag (72 flags vs 200 folks on raid) it is a better than a 1 in 6 chance of a getting a parchment (if one ever drops) or a nightmare bow staff in the lower tier zones. [/quote]

I was referring to the situation when you run out of flags. Which would be probably faster than most people had gotten even a single item... what then? 500 people have all the flags, but who is going to get that 17/19 140hp dagger with a 15% backstab modifier? And this is when trouble enters paradise :(

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

"Its less exp yes, but if you hate tier 1 pop zones so much why not go to older zones?"


You know what, now that i think about it your right. The answer isnt to allow everyone into the new zones, its to cut down on the reason for being in POP, theres just way too much incentive to be there. What Verant needs to do is nerf POP experience less than the old worlds experience. Nerf some of the loot drops, especially the rediculous amount of spoils for the higher tier planes the Ubers are getting. That way everyone wont want to cram into there, and people will be content with exp'ing in the old world. So nerfing POP is a great idea, thanks for coming up with that Cronnus!

As it is its pretty pointless to exp in old world if your just pure exp'ing. As we all know, you can spend 3 hours exp'ing in POP and still get a more experience if you spent 12 hours in old world. But i guess you didnt know that Cronnus, i do wonder if you'd take your own advice being in the same predicament as the 'masses'.

But like i said your a hypocrite trying to give advice you'd never take yourself.

I made an error in my post describing the core of people that make up Pana's raids. According to the mob tier system used in Legends the Tier of guilds involved range from a couple of tier 7 to the majority at tier 4 or 5 or and the remainder being of probably tier 2-3. I said tier 2 based on how Drinal ranks its guilds.. Tier one being the top three guilds which are fairly equal in accomplishments. Cats doing everything first and CT/WL and Femax nipping at their heals. There are 5 or 6 guilds that can do everything but AL, Emp, Seru and are really at a lose with the Pop boss/flag mobs due to the fact they are smallish and aren't fully equipped with NToV and 2nd graded Luclin gear. Most have pieces but not full setups. None have VT gear. Those are the majority of the make up of these raids.

BDeyes I'll just not comment on you. This isn't a flame board so I'll abstain from hanging you up from your toenails in good ole Drinal flameboard fashion. I'll just say this. Deal with it whiner. We are going to the elemental planes whether you like it or not. You don't like it write a letter to SoE (we know how much consideration you'll get) :)

Btw I have my tower key and hunt all parts of HoH who the f*ck are you to even begin to assume what my level of skill is. The only reason I have not and never will apply to a professional guild is I am married with a three year old son who are a helluva lot more important than EQ ever will be. This is a hobby not RL to me. k thnx la~

Dlehuru

As far as the uberguild number of accounts it was a guess. Anyone could see that. But I will take the 1000 accounts that you quote.

I made no claim about the number of folks stuck in the lower tier zones. THough I daresay I believe it is more than 3000 (remember we are talking about accounts and not people).

"The high end content, and the scarcity of it are pretty much the 2 things that make EQ different from other MMORPGs."

We agree on one thing at least. The scarcity of high level content. You know the BEST, FASTEST, and MOST EFFECTIVE way to keep folks out of the elemental planes for the next 6 months (at least in my opinion)?
Reverse the experience nerf for leveling above 61 and revamp about 10 zones for players to go to other than PoP with appropriate ZEMs. That and put some damn loot in Tier 1-3 planes other than the scraps that are there.

Did I say make the zones easier than PoP? No.

Did I say put an AC 50 BP on a moss snake? No.

You say that the uber guilds needs someplace to go and something to do. I AGREE 1000%. But you know casual players would like something more than the 4-6 zones they have. And yes with the stupid ZEM they have in PoP those
4-6 zones are realistically all there is.

If you look at some of the threads on LOY you will see I have railed against it because it doesn't address the needs of those folks who are above lvl 60 and not in uberguilds or at least it doesn't seem to from the advertising and not in the areas I mentioned.

"Oh and you do realize fohguild.org gets about 50 times more hits than this board? So which board to listen to by your numbers = $$$ logic"

That (to me) acknowledges that FOH is number 1 (or 2) in their field. In addition, Furor's rants are amusing and a lot is on target. If SOE would listen to calm, reasonable arguments the "vocal" rants wouldn't be there. I go to FOH board every day simply for the laughs. Instead you have to become the squeaky wheel. The following 2 Q and A are my opinion (we all have them)

What is the fastest way to get a bug fixed?

Find a way to seriously exploit it and post it on several boards. Servers come down for emergency patch.

What is the fastest way to get a GM to your zone?

Petition that someone is exploiting such and such.

"I was referring to the situation when you run out of flags. Which would be probably faster than most people had gotten even a single item... what then? 500 people have all the flags, but who is going to get that 17/19 140hp dagger with a 15% backstab modifier"

At this point the flags are enough loot for everyone. After all are flagged folks go back to playing as they did before, either in pickup groups in whatever zone they can find them, or in guild groups/raids. The only difference is they have more options than they did before.

"I think flags weren't the major f*ckup, the most idiotic part was making everything else obsolete with the huge ZEMs"

We agree. Did SOV or SOL trivialize Kunark in the area of experience or loot? Not really or at least not nearly the degree that PoP did to the rest of the game. And why did SOE do this? So that folks would buy PoP. They have nowhere near the passion for the game that you or other ubers have or that I or many of the casual players have. They are concerned about 1 thing. The bottom line. Period.

So you see we have common ground. And I have played since week 1 that EQ went live and used to play 40+ hours a week. My warrior received the first RBB on our server that didn't go to the only uber guild (at that time) on the server. I can't do that time of time commitment anymore but I get extremely riled at being called lazy, unskilled, uncommitted, undeserving, and a newbie. And that is the comments SOME UBERs are making in this thread.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What a dumb analogy. I'm sorry.

PoP isn't like buying a lump of clay. For some it's buying 1/4 a lump because that's what you end up with over time. Try as you may.
[/quote]

By evidence of this own thread, the "average" person has access to, (leaving out PoK/PoT)

Crypt of Decay (1/2 of Zone)
Innovation (80% of zone)
Tactics (75% of zone)
Halls of Honor (90% 0f zone)
Storms (80 % of zone)
Valor (90% of zone)
Nightmare (80% of zone)

Leaving out
Earth
Fire
Water
Air
Time

Leaving Torment out, as it just plain sucks @#%$ for anyone. (Although I Daresay that given a few months both more guilds, and "Revolutions" (If you must include it, then incldue PoK/PoT as well)

7/11... thats not exactly 25%

EQ wouldnt be as sucessfull if everything was handed to you on a silver platter. Panamah and the "DFR" earned access to their zones imo. And I'm willing to bet people had a blast doing it. I'm also willing to bet that this will happen on other servers.

EQ puts roadblocks, because ultimatly it makes them more money, it enchances the length of the game, and when people do not have something within their reach, that they do not have, they get bored and quit.

You are given a world and a character that you can shape depending by what you put into it, and how you play, no one is "entitled" to anything, except for the log in screen not ubers, not average people, not casuals. Most people will get a lot of it, just due to the nature of the game. But no one is "entitled" to it. I stand by my analogy, you are given a character, and its up to you, through conventional, or unconvential methods to mold your "clay" (Character) using conventional, or unconvential methods, but in accordance to "The rules" (Thinks physics in "RL")

EQ is open ended not just for the consumers, but for the devolpers. Its not that they are stupid, its that its hard to predict what people will do with the tools they are given. (Feign death anyoe?) Every exspantion is the same, the first few months people dont explore much, they stay in the previous exspantion, or stay in the "safe" zones of the new on, (fungus grove!) Ssra was great xp in the end of SoL, but I still didnt see many people who were not in Ssra guilds there. Devolpers probalby went sure how flag would work out, and how fast the "average" person can progress. They will make it harder, or easier if its not what they are exsspecting happens,

Oh please. Stop attributing EQ's success to one factor alone. That's tunnel vision. EQ had next to no competition until DAoC, which was the one game that actually led the then VI to hide its server populations from "competitors." From what I gathered from my spies, most of the devs were/had been playing DAoC in the office before its release and liked the game. It failed to dethrone EQ, but that just reinforces the fact that EQ had no 'real' competition. Little-to-no competition means you pretty much enjoy a monopoly. It's like saying DeBeers is successful due to the cut and clarity of its diamonds when in essence the reason for its success is altogether much larger than the product in and of itself.

One factor? Maybe i misworded it, its not the only factor, but its part of it....

Dont forget AC
UO
and other MMoRPG's that failed to dethrone EQ

Edited, since I have no clue what is offensive these days, I removed it all.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I daresay the revolution will dissolve to bickering factions, just like almost all revolutions have in the past history[/quote]

Not a chance. This isn't a loot whoring guild politicking thing where officers are doing the loot grab on everything that drops. This a ****load of people uniting so they can come take over your sand box.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Its less exp yes, but if you hate tier 1 pop zones so much why not go to older zones? [/quote]

Pie is good... Cronuus is an idiot... No we prefer forward and up not backwards and down. :)

Removed - 24 Hour Limit Read my post below. (referred to a previous post that the member was very upset about)

Let me clarify my PoV:

1. PoP is poorly designed to accomodate the large numbers of players who desire to level to 65 and obtain a reasonable amount of spells on their own.

2. Attempting to keep flagging revolutions from occurring, or zerg tactics from being successful (not a reference to Panamah's events), disrespecting those who use whatever means necessary to overturn the fun-limiting aspect of this expansion so that they can continue to enjoy the game and want to give SOE money every month, these things will not buy you what you want. Sooner or later, people will be where you want to be. This time, people are not going to be mollified by stories of keying timesinks everywhere, because the alternative is overcrowding to the point of being unable to find groups that yield decent exp or whatever. You are fooling yourselves if you believe that limiting the amount of flags given out on an encounter is the way to fix these problems.

3. It would be nice (although clearly, very clearly unrealistic) if people got off their moral high-ground stances about a GAME, and worked together to ask for needed changes. More nice exp-bearing zones would be a start. Some sort of alternative method of spell distribution would be helpful. So, that people don't feel trapped and desperate to get somewhere, anywhere just to do something different than what they have been doing for the last 3 months.

"I don't worry about the mini bosses (aside from the 1 groupers) being killed... whoever is top dog on the server will come in each time they pop and eat them all up in a couple hours time. There is seriously so little content, there's not enough for ONE guild. "

Agree on the little content remark.

Let's do a little math though. One uber guild , 70 players say they 2 box for the elemental planes VS a hundred or so smaller guilds whom have members that may band together for raids in the elemental planes. After all 1 chance in 40 of loot is better than zero chance in 40 forty for loot. I think the casuals will have the ubers outnumbered by a large margin.

Granted they may need more folks but look at the numbers and you will see that IF they choose to do so the ubers will be at a disadvantage. Now will they do it? Zerg raids on the flag mobs were unheard of a month ago. So who knows.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>SOE makes most of their money from casual players. [/quote]

I gotta say this is the most biggest piece of horse @#%$ I've seen in this thread. How does your 12.95 a month give SoE more money then my 12.95 a month. Plus the fact that i've been paying that for the last 4 years (given it used to be 9.95 a month).

So you go shove that elitest attitude up your arse, casual players have their own elitest sense.

Eelyen

Do the SIMPLE math. I know that is hard for you.

How many Uber players are there?

How many casual players?

Consider that a typical uber guild is about the size of 2-3 smaller guilds.

There are like 4-5 Tier 1 and Tier 2 guilds on my server.

There are about 80 smaller guilds on my server. Simple math.
Or as one uber player suggester The top 4 guilds may account for 1000 out of the 10000 accounts (432,000 accounts / 43 ish servers = about 10,000 accounts per server average). So that means that SOE makes about 9 times more money off casual players than off uber players.

On a one on one comparison you pay the same as a casual player but you play more and there use more resources (also called bandwidth) so therefore SOE makes more money off a casual player in a one on one comparison too.

So now that you have been proven a fool not once but twice.

"So you go shove that elitest attitude up your arse, "

DITTO

BTW I have been playing since the 1st week EQ went live.

If a Ranger may be allowed to input his humble point of view...

The uber guilds may be upset that some people are doing flags in a totally different way from the way the did it, but who is to say that their way is the only way? Or that its the only right way?

This game was designed so that there would be more than way of doing things, if they made it so it could only be done in one way, it removes our opportunity to adopt, improvise and overcome.

I don't know if Xev has something like this cooking, but I would seriously consider getting involved in such an endeavor...

Edited, since I have no clue what is offensive these days, I removed it all.

"I find this comment extremely personally offensive and ill-befitting of someone who is discussing this game or any game."

Are you dissing on communism?!?!? Sorry, just playin. ;)

It's simple really.

If you drive your car two hours per day commuting five days a week, you rack up more mileage and maintenance needs due to wear 'n' tear, cause more air pollution, contribute more to road congestion, spend more on fuel, etc. than someone who drives 30 minutes per day commuting four days a week. The cost difference is definitely there. The difference with EQ is that cost is shared: overhead/maintenance/service personnel are pretty much divided up equally among all subscribers ($12.95 per month roughly) except for Legends people. Although we all pay roughly the same fee, the cost is not the same.

Edited, since I have no clue what is offensive these days, I removed it all.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Explain how getting everyone flagged is not like communism, where everyone is viewed as equals (The idea of communism itself sounds great</blockquote>

Next thing you know the drafters of this fine document will be called communists. ;) [WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.]


<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Offended for asking if you are a communist? Did you know there is a communist party in the USA? You must be easily offended. I am offended by how easily offended you are. Please stop. BTW, you're the one who called me illogical ! I am offended. Hahah. /sarcasm off</blockquote>

The fact that there is a communist party in the US has nothing to do with EQ. However, implying that posters are communists for their opinions about a computer game is utterly ridiculous, and it is pretty pathetic to compare these posters to real governments with communist ideologies that enslaved and/or murdered their own citizens in the name of such ideals, denied them basic human rights, and stripped cultures of their heritage. Anyone who wants to know how communism affected my life and my family's is welcome to email me.


<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">Comparisons to communism, you all don't like. Could it be because, Truth Hurts? Seriously.</blockquote>

Because you belittle the real devastation of communism when you imply these game players are card-carrying members of the communist party. You want to know the truth? You can't handle the truth. Or maybe you should ask my dead family members. OK?

Some things to comment on again!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not a chance. This isn't a loot whoring guild politicking thing where officers are doing the loot grab on everything that drops. This a ****load of people uniting so they can come take over your sand box. [/quote]

Hey I heard Lenin say that in St Petersburg way back when. I'm pretty damn sure he might have meant it. Of course he knew the hordes of people he didn't know were in it with clean ideals and only to help the masses that were clearly oppressed by the ub^^Hnobles! Yea right. As long as the common "enemy" is on the top, it might work, but once you win you'll just end up forming exact same cliques.

The more things change, the less they change... ie you'd just have changed the names of the guilds.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Next thing you know the drafters of this fine document will be called communists. ;) [WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.]
[/quote]

You don't notice the difference? CERTAIN rights. Not all rights. I don't see "equal income and opportunity for leisure" there, and that's what'd translate to equality inside the Everquest world, where basic freedoms never come under threat (life and liberty are hardly in danger)... notice PURSUIT of happiness, not Happiness itself. So no, these people worded it carefully to be wise, unlike the communist manifests which went bit over the top and added Equality, Happiness and lord knows what promises that just didn't work with actual humans.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Because you belittle the real devastation of communism when you imply these game players are card-carrying members of the communist party. You want to know the truth? You can't handle the truth. Or maybe you should ask my dead family members. OK? [/quote]

You defend the ideals still. Lets call it socialism, since I unlike most people here actually probably know how that stuff works (for the indignant Miss Foxfyre I am from Finland, and if you know anything about 20th century history that should tell you enough), and what the difference between that and communism is.

Problem is with the crazy ZEMs of the new zones making so much content obsolete. You're barking up the wrong tree so to speak. PoP is like a pyramid... the higher up you get in the zones, the less grinding they support, and you want to funnel upward? I think they should just upgrade the ZEMs in old zones REALLY drastically. Maybe not to as high as the really tough PoP zones (there aren't many of them really, Tactics ogres, elem planes and some others I guess), but you get the point. Make them viable for grinding again, and people would be back in the old world, and while there they would definitely enjoy raiding there more -> less pressure on PoP, which is already nearly overcrowded everywhere except PoTime (atleast on RN).

-- Delheru Tanreall
Ascent (http://www.ascentguild.com), Rodcet Nife

www.pageproducer.com/user...an/DFR.jpg (http://www.pageproducer.com/users/Sibian/DFR.jpg)

The "i have paid for it" argument is not really logical.

How many of you have complained of not beeing able to reach the last Islands of old PoA (noone had the power), Veshans Peek (Trakanon were a hell of a bottleneck those days), Sleepers Tomb (key dragons bottlenecked for month), Vex Thall (Empe still a huge bottleneck) when those Expansions were actual?

You paid all that content too (and i guess, most "casuals" havent been in any of those places yet).

And imho Elemental Planes plus Plane of Time is equal to those. They are the VP, ST or VT of PoP. I cant see why everyone feels entitled to enter those without any effort just by saying: "i have paid 12 bucks, let me in, doesnt matter how".

And again: If you like to get to elemental planes by mass flagging, feel free to do so! Most people of my guild (not uber, up and coming in this threads terms) would tolerate it as a viable way, but they dont give any respect for this path of beating the game.

And i think what most people find addictive on EQ is beeing proud on own achievements AND getting respected by other players for it.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>BDeyes I'll just not comment on you. This isn't a flame board so I'll abstain from hanging you up from your toenails in good ole Drinal flameboard fashion. I'll just say this. Deal with it whiner. We are going to the elemental planes whether you like it or not. You don't like it write a letter to SoE (we know how much consideration you'll get)

Btw I have my tower key and hunt all parts of HoH who the f*ck are you to even begin to assume what my level of skill is. The only reason I have not and never will apply to a professional guild is I am married with a three year old son who are a helluva lot more important than EQ ever will be. This is a hobby not RL to me. k thnx la~[/quote]

Don't believe I attempted to flame you for your opinions, Just have my own Pindk, and they are shared by many people who as I pointed out, are NOT in the Ubar guilds. I am definately not Whining in reguards to this... just stating an opinion from someone who has done several of the mobs you are bent on Zerging or have Zerged (and believe me.. most of these mobs could be taken out by guilds like UC, Darkmoons, GoTK if they bothered to even attempt them and learn them). Now, not sure which guild you are in, but we have plenty of Al Bundies in our guild, yet they can usually make a bigger raid if we schedule it in advance for the weekend.

If Verant limits the flags to 72... then obviously they are just wanting to slow you down. If they really wanted to prevent a Zerg force from breaking into the Elemental Planes they would limit some of the access to these encounters to the raid limit of 72 as well (and perhaps they will). If they can limit 6 to a trial, or 18 to Hedge maze... perhaps they will limit the Electric Penis Gate to Troden(Agnarr) to the 72 person raid limit and maybe limit the Access to the HOH trials to that same 72 person limit. Untill they do that however, you still have every chance to make the Elemental planes using Zerg tactics.

So Whats Verant gonna do? Do they support your Trivialization of their content or not. Only time will decide.

-Sin

GOOD GRIEF. It comes down to the Zergs and the Elitist? I am soooo tired of the Elitists looking down their exp and loot driven nose at those of us who enjoy a well rounded game.

It is kind of funny that SOE kisses the backsides of the elitists now. SOE created all the tradeskills and used to encourage a well rounded game.

So SOE puts all the ingredients that we need for our higher level tradeskills recipes in the most uber of PoP zones. So some of the enterprising among us, namely Panamah, makes raids to get many flagged who otherwise would not be. Then those of us who play a well rounded game can explore, fight, forage and fish in those OTHER PoP zones and continue to play our well rounded game.

BUT all the spoiled brat elitists that SOE has created, call the rest of us Zergs and look down their noses at us, thinking we have snuck into their private domain. /rude elitists

*edited* No use rehashing what has altready been said many times

As I see it, the two different "camps" of this argument are coming from vastly different points of view.

In one camp there are those who oppose the Flagging Rebellion and would like to see <em>more</em> restrictions placed on players in PoP. As a generalization, it appears that such people are very much inside the world of Norrath, and view their successes in game as being validated by SOE. They have assimilated the culture of the uber-guild into their Norrathian World-view, and see themselves as the movers-and-shakers of the game. They almost seem to be unable to shake off the immersion effect of the long hours played in the game, and have fun participating in it with a wider player base. Each advancement by a rival precipitates some sort of jealousy.

In another camp you have those who simply generally oppose any sort of authority figures and will rabble-rouse for this reason alone. And for the cause of perceived injustice. And to preserve their way of playing and enjoying the game.

What ever happened to actual players? I mean the people behind the toons. Just recently we had that thread about the stupidest things we ever did, and we were able to laugh at ourselves. We all have a passion to play this game, we all are competitive, or we wouldn't be posting here and reading this. We players are not each other's enemies in this whole mess. There is no enemy here. There is only a company called SOE which has produced a product. The attempts in this thread at explaining why players should be limited in their advancement or enjoyment (because of the funnel-effect on exping and the poor drop rates on items and the difficulty of obtaining 63+ spells) based on some players needs to have their large weekly amounts of play time given a special status are destructive to the game, IMO. Uber guilds cannot really keep this game afloat. Casual players add a lot to the richness, diversity, and enjoyment of this experience of playing a game. I dont see how anyone could say that wasn't true. Sometimes interacting with others in the game is more than frustrating, but generally the more positive experiences outweigh the negative.

The real world events going on around us, events which I am powerless as an individual to influence, make my flights into escapism all the more important to me. I would like this game to be fun. I assume that is what we all wish when we log in. Why is it so hard to stop demeaning and belittling and ignoring each other and simply focus on facing the real obstacles to fun that SOE has given us with PoP, and then continuing to ask for changes to alleviate the situation?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
And i think what most people find addictive on EQ is beeing proud on own achievements AND getting respected by other players for it.
[/quote]

No offense, but this is probably what <strong>you</strong> want, so it seems like a universal drive. Both the pride part and the respect part.

I'm not <em>proud</em> of my horse. I don't particularly care what people think about me being on a horse. If anything, it was slightly embarassing to have people asking "wow, how much did that cost?". Too much, several weeks of my life wasted.

I just love having a horse. As I get older, I tend to be less concerned with other people's opinions, and more concerned with my own fun, hehe.

Well to just bring you back to reality....

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How many Uber players are there?

How many casual players?[/quote]

Good question, how many are there?

Have you done an actual study? Or are you assuming that every since person not in a "Uber" guild, is a casual player? Don't start quoting bull**** numbers to be, if you haven't done the research.

I still to don't buy that casual's are verant's source of cash, bull****. I cold probably say that most of the changes in Everquest come from Hardcore players, but then I wouldn't really know because I haven't done any actual reseach other then the fact that we experence more of the game perhaps.

Since you quoted me...

"I just don't like hipocrisy (See Plane of Mischief thread)."


I think theyre 2 totally different situations. POP is an expansion where many players are crammed into a handful of zones that are practical for experience. The Uber players have 4x's as many zones available to them. Whats even more rediculous is those Uber players make up a much smaller paying audience but i'm tangenting.

Most people here seem to agree that its wrong how Verant has 'funneled'/jailed the 'masses' into a handful of zones that are practical for them. PoM is not a zone that would solve the issues of overcrowding, however the 3rd tier zones on up including the Elemental Planes are. I could care less if Verant opened up PoM to the masses, only a few would really be upset and they'd get over it quick. Its not like 3/4's of the loot drops worth a damn arent packed into PoM like they are in the Elemental planes. Where if your not there your just getting mass ethereal drops over and over again which became pointless to you months ago.

So in a way your right that allowing the 'masses' into PoM would ruin the zone as many of us know it. You also may be right that allowing the 'masses' into the Elemental Planes would ruin the zone as you know it. But which is the greater evil? Making PoM difficult to get to so sight-see'ers that wanna see it cant? Or trapping the 'masses' in 1/4 of POP so the Ubers can have their playground and 3/4's of POP to themself? Obviously theyre 2 totally different situations.
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"Please dont pretend to know about the work involved in killing mobs with fewer than 60 people unless you've actually done them yourself. Until then you have no clue whats involved, or just how practical they are for the high end guild players."


Actually, i'd be surprised if many of us didnt know the work involved in killing something with 60 people. Many of us do Raid, its not only Uber guilds that raid. I'm sure what you raid and kill is proportional to what others raid and kill if you wanna use 'work' as a measuring stick. So save all the 'work' crap because i'll take that one night of failing a few times to eventually kill it, over a 2-3 weeks-long pain-in-the-@#%$ quest anyday of the week. Dont bull**** us about raiding, most of us know whats invovled, and how failing can suck. But what sucks more are time sink quests that are 10x's the amount of work you put forth in one night :P Which makes your arguments about 'work to advance' even more rediculous because the ones doing the side quests are still doing more work than everyone of you are.

"I still to don't buy that casual's are verant's source of cash, bull****."


Actually a better way to think about it is 'NON-UBER' player instead of 'casual'. By your own admissions most servers only have 2-3 UBER guilds that rule everything and everyone. That would easily be a minority.

Furthermore, your points about allowing the 'masses' into the Elemental Planes would ruin the zone indicate there are many more players that are getting screwed over than are in the Elemental Planes.

It was a true statement about the elemental planes. I know, as does Delheru that there will be a time in the future that there is going to be 4 Large guilds in the Elemental planes on Rodcet. And from what I understand of the planes as they are now, thats going to be crowded.

Verant continues to release more content with each expansion, with the idea of spreading the players out more and more. Do I think it was a good idea to add 5 levels? Hell no.

They try to spread out the high end guilds and the players overall. I still think that via the key quests or large zerg raids such as the DFR...that even casual players have many ways to access a large variety of Teir 2 and 3 zones. On Rodcet I rarely see more then 40-60 people grinding in PoV, Storms, BoT, and very very few in Halls of Honor. And the main force in Tactics is the 4 top guilds that choose to grind there when not raiding.

I don't think people are that crowded, and there is still a good 6 other zones that more people could flow into giving a little time.

All these bull**** arguements of how everyone is crowded and "Stuck" there is stupid. Do the damn quests, join a damn guild that is flagging, ask a friend to help you, or make mass zerg raids. But I can tell you that SoE does want poeple sspread out and the guilds spread out. They will take steps to make sure the Elemental planes don't become Karnor's and other such zones.

Removed - 24 Hour Limit Read my post below.

...and do a side quest for once instead of taking the 'easy way' through before you go on talking about how easy it is for everybody to advance.

I just dont understand how you keep speaking about stuff you have no experience with, or arent in the situations to know someones predicament.

Hey if you want, I'll go grab some friends in my guild and do one of the quests for the hell of it.

I already spent countless hours doing that in Luclin, whats another key to me?

And before you are saying I'm protecting my spoils, i'm not even in the elemental planes yet. I know I will be, but I also know I don't want to deal 150 lower teir guilds/player sin there thinking they can be uber just by being there.

There has been seperation in the levels of players since the beginning. You can't just hop up and get the best stuff just becasue you want it now.

I saw a thread on the MT board that this inspired. It seems that a few people want to try this on our server now. I hope it happens. Oh, and I did see some well wishes from most guilds. One person even being from the strongest guild on our server.

Aaliane

Removed - 24 Hour Limit Read my post below. (cleaned up per community request)

Removed - 24 Hour Limit Read my post below. (cleaned up per community request)

Not crowded? I saw low level 50's creeping into first tier planes before I left, just like the high 30's creeped into DL before they really should have. You're going to have damn near the whole server in PoP at some point. You don't think that will be too crowded?