View Full Forums : Regen: Here we go again.. again.


Firemynd
05-05-2004, 01:16 PM
From the 5-5 patch message (http://www.thedruidsgrove.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7767) :

- All characters should now regenerate HP faster when sitting. The longer you sit, the faster you regenerate!

The one druid utility spell for indirect healing has essentially been redistributed to all classes. Guess we're supposed to just roll over ... since we get extra sitting regen too, it's peachy that yet another benefit to having a druid in group has been marginalized.

PlayerA: "I like having a druid in the group; his regen tops off health in between fights without wasting healer mana."
PlayerB: "We don't need a druid for that anymore, and we can regen between fights without wasting a buff slot!"

I'm supposing necros will love this, if their lich line doesn't count as a 'DoT'. They were really hurting for greater mana regen capability. :bs:

~Firemynd

Grendul3164
05-05-2004, 01:28 PM
Personally, Ive never gotten a group due to my regen. /shrug
If nothing else this gives me one more spell gem, and more mana between fights. Plus since the spell should add to the new regen rate people who do want us for the regen would be even more happy to do so now.

Not to mention less medding downtime = more experience. And Theres lots of AAs Id still like to top off...

Id imagine that lich would count as part of the DoT line - but I wont be on till tonight to confirm this.

Not sure why we're always looking at the downside of things - really takes the fun out of the game IMHO.

My only gripe would be that they continually to make the game easier to level, instead of better. Nature of the beast I suppose.

Firemynd
05-05-2004, 01:56 PM
Personally, Ive never gotten a group due to my regen. /shrug

I figured an SOE apologist would respond first.

The druid's appeal is a combination of things. You may get invited to a group to serve the primary role of healer or dps, but players have come to expect, if not appreciate, the smaller strengths which were designed to make up for lack of specialty in either of those roles.

Over the course of time, nearly all of our smaller stengths have been redistributed to other classes via itemization and AAs. Unless SOE is going to put druids on par with specialists in a certain role, I can't see how further diluting our abilities is a good thing for this class.

~Firemynd

Fenlayen
05-05-2004, 02:08 PM
Okay maybe I'm stoopid and missing the issue. :bonk:

If the regen spells stack with the new higher innate regen what's the problem ?

You will still regen more with the druid buff than without, they have just upped the base line.

Grendul3164
05-05-2004, 02:23 PM
SoE apologist? I imagine I would be playing EQ2 if I was on the SoE side of things...

I wasn't saying taking away from some of our smaller talents was a good thing - but its really not worth the time ranting about it as it isnt going to change my gameplay, or yours in any way.

Not to mention you missed my point that people wouldnt not (yay for double negatives) want us now due to the new regen - more regen + more regen = nothing bad. Now if the new sitting regen didnt stack with our castable one, I would 100% agree with you.

But as a raid druid I suppose Im happy being able to play secondary healer and still nuke close to a mage. Maybe Im alone. Or maybe your too argumentative to see any side but your own.

I just see way to much whining and complaining on these boards these days. There's much bigger issues to tackle in the game then sitting regen. If you dont like it, dont play - or at least come up with a positive fix/change. Complaining to complain is just a pointless waste of bandwith.

-Grendul
65 Storm Warden
Iratus Lepus

Peregrinus
05-05-2004, 02:24 PM
It's been quite a while since anybody had to sit long enough between fights to make this an issue. Breaks in the action are few and far between these days. Anybody taking damage during the fighting will still want regen. This will have little or no effect on the demand for the regen line.

I'll add that Ad Hominem attacks have no place in reasoned debate and do not constitute an acceptable counter-argument.

Fairweather Pure
05-05-2004, 02:26 PM
First and foremost, a complaint with no data, right out of the gate is just complaining for the sake of complaining. Secondly, there are more important issues facing the druid class that the absurdity of this particular complaint isn't even worth addressing.

I guess it's true that people will complain about anything.

Tiane
05-05-2004, 03:06 PM
Lich counts as a DoT.

Sorry necros, No mana for you! Come back, one year!

Shammies are happy though.

Aidon
05-05-2004, 03:15 PM
I'll add that Ad Hominem attacks have no place in reasoned debate and do not constitute an acceptable counter-argument.

Reasoned Debate? What hogwash.

Debates are not about reason, they are about persuasion, and logic or reason rarely persuades people.

Any argument has its place in any debate, its use and value towards your goal may be low, but it has its place.

Reasoned Debate is about equivalent to a Fair War.

Grygonos Thunderwulf
05-05-2004, 03:29 PM
do you think it counts tick sitting.. so you could effectively canni-dance with the new splurtish-regen (because it gains over time like splurt) or does the timer reset on sit or stand... that could be a red flag for nerf battage depending on how much it increases the regen over time and if you could canni-dance your way into it

Peregrinus
05-05-2004, 04:17 PM
Reasoned Debate? What hogwash.

Debates are not about reason, they are about persuasion, and logic or reason rarely persuades people.

Any argument has its place in any debate, its use and value towards your goal may be low, but it has its place.

Reasoned Debate is about equivalent to a Fair War.

That is a fine appeal to common practice, but it does not invalidate my point. Simply because many people use fallacy to debate a point does not make my argument any weaker. Encouraging the use of fallacy only dilutes any benefit gained from the dialogue we attempt to have here.

Malrik
05-05-2004, 05:01 PM
You may get invited to a group to serve the primary role of healer or dps

hahahahahahahah, DPS, LOLOLOLLOLO, get.. a.... group for DPS......

Now thats funny

Grendul3164
05-05-2004, 05:23 PM
Malrik Ive watched you take down frogs....you're SICK dps...cmon now! You dont have to be Bigandugly to do damage (hurrah for double meanings). >:P

Joking aside, nice to see more Zeb's posting.

-Grendul
65 Storm Warden
Iratus Lepus

guluvasea
05-05-2004, 05:26 PM
I played with this on test this morning. Quite frankly, I consider this to be a wonderful change for the low to medium level melee player. The lack of hp regen is what always has shy'd me away from starting a melee character on my normal server.

as for taking something away from the druid class?, I dont think so. When my guild raids, the warriors dont have time to sit down nor do many of them need healing anyways except for the MA, SA, rampage and off tanks. I still regen my group and heal whomever i need to heal. I dont see this diminishing my role as a druid.

dekkon fuzzyfeet
elder storm warden

Malrik
05-05-2004, 06:11 PM
Bigandugly to do damage (hurrah for double meanings). >:P LOL

aye we need many more Zebs here )

Come on though, PoStorms/PoTactics solo is a bit different then LDoN, GoD, BoT, ect. When was the last time you were invited to a Hard LDoN / upper GoD for your leet dps? I would honestly say that 19 out of the 20 invites I get form non guildies I am asked to main heal with about 50% + from guildies to main heal.

Dont get me wrong I am a Alter specialist, I like healing just as much as I like dealing out the damage. Hmm well to be honest I like healing better then I like damage. The fact remains that given the same level of gear there are about 10+ classes that out damage us.

Regen in a bottle has been out for a while, Im glad they are giving regen to all classes. Ill be searching for chloro for noobs much less.

Fairweather Pure
05-05-2004, 06:46 PM
When was the last time you were invited to a Hard LDoN / upper GoD for your leet dps?

This morning. Four times. Next question please :P

Malrik
05-05-2004, 08:52 PM
WOW can I see you magelo? I want to see how I can improve my dps to measure up with rangers/rogues/necros/wizzies/mages.

Anka
05-05-2004, 09:32 PM
I remember getting a tell from a guildie "We did another hard LDON after you left, big dps group. Finished really fast." That made me feel so much better, especially since I was putting on as much dps as I could for aggro, even with SCS3. Sigh.

Swiftfox
05-05-2004, 10:31 PM
At 65 you get a whoping 8 hit points of regen sitting. Maybe its just me but that is hardly worth implementing or mentioning in the patch message.

I have NEVER gotten a random tell invite into a group on my Druid for any reason, I have got tells on my Rogue , Chanter and my friends Cleric that I was on to res with.

DemonMage
05-06-2004, 01:13 AM
Erm.. if you sit long enough, you'll start regening over 200/tick.

Noliniel
05-06-2004, 01:33 AM
I don't see anything wrong with it. It if stacks with our regen. your problem ? :p Most people would rather want casted regen than sitting on the ground anyways.

hahahahahahahah, DPS, LOLOLOLLOLO, get.. a.... group for DPS......

Now thats funny

Druids have a fairly decent dps rate. We might not as good as those classes that just for dps ( rangers, rogues etc.. ) but we not too bad either. You can't go wrong with a druid in group as dps. :)

Ndainye
05-06-2004, 05:02 AM
The thing about druid DPS is yeah ok it's not that great but I really don't see us getting group spots because of DPS. It's more a get a druid because they can do such and such and add some DPS. We are acceptable as a good choice for DPS when we can also toss that emergency heal, snare the unseen running mob or evac when all hell breaks loose. I enjoy the roll of 2nd healer/added DPS in a group much more than the roll of main healer because in that roll I can let my druid abilities really shine.

It all comes down to the stacking of the group though. If a group has a cleric and a shaman then adding a druid for DPS is lowering potential since the Shaman can fulfill the role of back up healer while performing the more specialized roll of main slow. In a group that has a enchanter as main slow then a druid is a good choice for DPS.

That said most times I think I get DPS rolls in LDoNs so I can gate us to SRO when we are done.

Aluaeia
05-06-2004, 05:13 AM
I did a hard takish last night with druid/druid/shaman/warrior/monk/dead sk, the sk died about, uh, 8 times over the whole thing (collect 20, we won with 9 min left), monk died once, and took forever to pull, sk couldn't pull cause fd kept failing (which is why he died so much), shaman died once because warrior got stupid and hit a tree to spawn 2 little mobs while a mob was inc, and after the monk died, the other druid was pulling and with rooting/snaring adds before they got to camp, was pulling faster and easier than the monk.

I forgot why I was saying this. uh, I nuked stuff a lot. yay!

AmonraSet
05-06-2004, 06:17 AM
From the PlayerA: "I like having a druid in the group; his regen tops off health in between fights without wasting healer mana."
PlayerB: "We don't need a druid for that anymore, and we can regen between fights without wasting a buff slot!"


PlayerC: "What are you guys smoking, and where can I get some?"

Islington
05-06-2004, 07:33 AM
the sk died about, uh, 8 times
monk died once
shaman died once


I forgot why I was saying this. uh, I nuked stuff a lot. yay!
Next time try healing :o

Fenlayen
05-06-2004, 07:54 AM
Next time try healing :o

Healing is overrated :P

Kulothar
05-06-2004, 08:24 AM
I really don't see any down side to this for the melees. Our regens stack, 70% healing with bandages which equals less down time for the lower level melees. For higher level tanks it only affects those that solo in that they have to bandage up more rather than just drink a regen potion. Looks like I will be working on my SK more now that he will have less down time.

And Malrik, my leet DPS actually gets me as many LDoN groups if not more than my healing and I am Alt spec. DS/HR/IoR/Epic/Snare/Root/DD are very desirable for a hard LDoN if there is a Cleric already in the group. They also are desireable if you have a high DPS group with a shaman backup since you will probably have plenty of mana to spare.

Kulothar
05-06-2004, 08:35 AM
I think the quickest Hard LDoN I ever did was Dru(me)/Sha/SK/Pal/Ran/Rog. We didn't expect much from this group with no puller but as it turned out the rogue pulled and just brought all the room at once. Each tank would take a mob till I could root off a couple and those tanks would move to assist MT and they went down fast. Between my regen, Shaman HoT and Pally group heals we didn't have any deaths and finished the zone in less than half the alloted time. Most of my mana was spent on DS and Debuffs and only cast CH twice. We did two in a row and the second was just as fast.

Regnon
05-06-2004, 08:48 AM
I was told by a former guild mate, (shaman) that under no certain terms, was a druid a DPS class.

Then after I had raked him over the coals, and carefully expalined how big of a dumbass he was, he logged off.

Danixzzel
05-06-2004, 02:43 PM
The whole point of this is to make melees slightly less group dependent, like maybe they could actualy solo a blue con at level 65, then sit/bandage and do it again a minute later!

I don't know about the rest of you but in typical exp groups I'm in the only reason melees would be sitting for more then a tick or two (and that would be rare) would be if they had just been rezed, or we were out of mobs to pull (in which case healing is pretty insignifacent).

Anyways, the bonus is that casters get this too... and i think it was working on horse back too, which will be nice for AE fights.

Paldor
05-06-2004, 03:11 PM
Killed Korucust last night... My Domesticated Chardoki was putting out about 143 DPS, I was on healing, but my dogs DPS outdid the Wizard and the Mage.

Islington
05-06-2004, 03:30 PM
Killed Korucust last night... My Domesticated Chardoki was putting out about 143 DPS, I was on healing, but my dogs DPS outdid the Wizard and the Mage.
That's kind of pathetic. A 65 Wizard with Strike of Solusek and Concussion should be putting out, at the very least, 300 DPS.

Paldor
05-06-2004, 03:39 PM
My guild is not even elemental flagged.. The Mage was 65, nuking with "Sun Vortex" and ID4 focus.. He averaged 81 DPS (His pet did about 70 DPS). The wizard was only level 55 =p and did a whoping 23 DPS.

Grendul3164
05-06-2004, 04:57 PM
My guild is not even elemental flagged.. The Mage was 65, nuking with "Sun Vortex" and ID4 focus.. He averaged 81 DPS (His pet did about 70 DPS). The wizard was only level 55 =p and did a whoping 23 DPS.

Isnt that comparing apples to oranges? Eh charming rocks either way...or used to. :twak:

Im surpsied at the number of people who think they get invited for JUST their DPS -- you may not have to heal but your'e likely their for the many utilities you have ON TOP of your nuking. Its not just cause you "nuke real good". Honest. And if it is, you should run. Fast.

Of course at Time level and beyond, grouping in say PoV you WOULD be considered "l33t" DPS - and hopefully puller/tank/main healer too! -- but again its comparing apples to oranges.

(P.S. Malrik missed my sarcasm methinks...)

-Grendul
65 Storm Warden
Iratus Lepus

Malrik
05-06-2004, 07:11 PM
And Malrik, my leet DPS actually gets me as many LDoN groups if not more than my healing and I am Alt spec. DS/HR/IoR/Epic/Snare/Root/DD are very desirable for a hard LDoN if there is a Cleric already in the group

WOOT LEET dmg from HoR, Snare and root. Hmm manybe that 140 a tick + 55 a tick is what is giving those necros/rangers/ect a run for there money. Umm think that right there proved my point that Grendul staed so much better then I did.


Im surpsied at the number of people who think they get invited for JUST their DPS -- you may not have to heal but your'e likely their for the many utilities you have ON TOP of your nuking

Soo while you may think that Snare, HoR, IoR is LEET DPS I dont think that many warriors, rangers, SKs, pallies, rogues, wizzies, shammies and what not thinks the same.

(P.S. Malrik missed my sarcasm methinks...)
lol aye i did :p

Dont get me wrong, I love my druid, I can do things with my druid that no other class can do but that does not mean I delude into thinking that groups want me for my LEET nukes. Druid rock and in the right enviroment can do some insane s*%t but that is not in LDoN nor is it in most GoD settings.

Avendesoral
05-06-2004, 11:55 PM
This is your first and last warning. The Druid's Grove DOES NOT allow personal attacks. Period.

Firemynd
05-07-2004, 02:53 PM
Personal attack removed - Chenier, DG Mod

If you're going to attack someone you don't know at all, without any justification whatsoever, you could at least bother to spell their name correctly.

You may also wish to learn what constitutes "trolling" .. incitement, provocation, personal attacks -- your post, for example.

~Firemynd

palamin
05-07-2004, 04:16 PM
well I am thinking they only did the regen thing to help melees in the solo department. Seems like they are embracing the soloing aspect of the game after how many years now? Pretty sure this next expansion they will have stuff for meleers to solo. I have not had to really cast regen since we were exping off frogs in sebilis, where we actually had some downtime while breaking the areas into feasible respawns. not alot of respawn time just enough so that we could kill or bring one frog at a time. With mobs that hit for 600 plus nature's recovery and blessing of replenshiment really do nothing anymore. About the only thing it does anymore is when a non tanking meleer takes a riposte that you do not feel like healing back or someone takes a round of attacks that is about it.

Chenier
05-08-2004, 12:07 AM
Avendesoral,

The Druid's Grove does not allow personal attacks. Please review the DG Posting Policies (http://thedruidsgrove.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2048), PM myself or Sobe if you have further questions. Thank you.

Kulothar
05-11-2004, 03:36 PM
Quote:
"And Malrik, my leet DPS actually gets me as many LDoN groups if not more than my healing and I am Alt spec. DS/HR/IoR/Epic/Snare/Root/DD are very desirable for a hard LDoN if there is a Cleric already in the group

WOOT LEET dmg from HoR, Snare and root. Hmm manybe that 140 a tick + 55 a tick is what is giving those necros/rangers/ect a run for there money. Umm think that right there proved my point that Grendul staed so much better then I did."

My DPS is usually over 300dps with dots and then I toss some Summer's Flame or Winters Storm for a little quick 4k dmg. Don't know what type of druid you are if your DPS is only 195.

Guess you weren't a math major. DPS from those things can be a little hard to figure if you don't know how they work... The Ro's debuff AC/ATK/FR so when the tank gets hit less and hits harder is that his DPS or yours? When the Wizzy lands twice as many fire based nukes for more damage who's DPS is that? When the mob doesn't run off and bring a dozen friends back or is rooted off and doesn't beat on your cleric/enchanter, that is negative mob DPS so who should that count for? The lessened down time for tanks and the mana that necros get from regen which increases overall adventure DPS is created by the druid also. Math is more than just A+A=2A and most good groups realize that. You obviously have missed out on some good groups that like having druids along for things other than CH.

When a group looks for a member for DPS they look at how that member affects group DPS, not his personal DPS. If you were looking for DPS based on personal numbers, why would you invite an enchanter or shaman since a warrior, monk or knight could hit faster and harder? Because they can slow the mob and haste the warriors which increases overall DPS.

Grendul3164
05-11-2004, 04:54 PM
My DPS is usually over 300dps with dots and then I toss some Summer's Flame or Winters Storm for a little quick 4k dmg. Don't know what type of druid you are if your DPS is only 195.

What the? Where are you fighting that your DPS is higher than elemental/time rogues? Especially with dots given nothing but bosses last over a minute. Youre wasting a lot of mana in dots if youre in say LDON - or you have lots of failures.

Lets say each LDON mob lasts one minute. You have all your spells (LDON included / GoD excluded) so you throw down VoT for 300/tick, Epic for 55/tick, and Drifting Death for 240/tick. Youre at 595/tick with those - roughly 100DPS for one tick. Youre epic cost you 10sec, the rest 2-4 each (im at work and dont remember the cast times), so you now have aprroximately 16seconds in casts + spell gem reuse so for numbers sake we say 20 seconds. Thats 40seconds for those dots - or 5 ticks. Thats 2975 dmg for 60seconds of fighting - or 49.5 dps. Wee. And yes I realize whatever yo cast first will have an extra tick in there but you can see it wont give you a 250dps increase.

Or lets take a chain nuking situation. SF with my Greatstaff of Power does 1500-2015 dmg (focii). So average lets say 1750 just for fun. 5 second or so cast means you can get 4 off (I went high on this). And for arguments sake one crits for 3500. thats 8250dmg in 60seconds, 137.5 for dps. If none of them are resisted AT ALL (unheard of - especially given the Hand of Ro lacking due to time and mana)

I know im using a lot of gross averages and assumptions, but you can see that it would still be NOWHERE near 300dps. Not to mention you could do that on one or two mobs and be OOM. Not very efficient if you ask me. The 195 is a much closer figure, and even that sounds high to me as a beast without his pet does less than that in elemental/time gear and with his PoF pet weapon.

Beasts dont get to count SD as part of their DPS, Enchanters dont care about theirs (but they wouldnt count voq it if they did) and bards certainly dont count their songs so we as druids really cant count our utilities either. DPS is standard to how much dmg you yourself output. So you're comparing something that wasn't ever a part of this thread, and if nothing else supports Malrik's point that we are used as utility - not DPS. Math is A+A=2A unless youre working with a different formula, which you are.

Why would you invite the classes you listed?
Enchanters = utility
Shaman = utility

Warriors, monks and knights invite these classes to stay alive. Not for DPS. Again, youre comparing apples to oranges and scewing the argument. Its an argument of self DPS vs Group DPS - and we were only discussing self.

Math major? That was a bit of a personal attack but thats ok we forgive you. Thank you, drive thru.

-Grendul
Storm Warden of Zeb
Iratus Lepus

**Flame me if my DPS calculation is off, im at work and using GROSS generalizations.**

Malrik
05-11-2004, 06:31 PM
/shrug this is a forum dont think I can get offended here, lol.


I get ldon groups because I can pull, I can heal, I can do my damage (no where near a even equiped ranger, rogue, wizzy, ect) as well as snare root part 3-4 mobs, do ldons with no slower and make it work, as well as others. In non LDoN enviroment we shine much more like in WW, PoS, PoTactics, UP, ME, many more. We can do more in some zones then we can in others, all that versatility is our power. Depending on the envirment we can out damange a rogue, a wizzy or what not its just not in a indoors dungon where 90% of all animals are not tag'd as animals. Do to our Versatility our DPS is not consistant across all zones. I have no doubt that you can get to 300 dsp(hell never tested it but I would doubt a PoS charm'd frog can pump out clsoe to 300 dps), I just really doubt that 300 dsp is in a ldon/GoD dungon.

Have to agree with Grendul statment, DPS is only determined by damage done not by possible damage not done or by possible damage avoided.

lol guess we kinda derailed this thread.

Crescent
05-13-2004, 08:52 AM
Maybe he has access to some dots we don't have ;)

What dots are you using Kulothar that give you 300 dps that you usually cast on a mob before it's dead?

Palarran
05-13-2004, 09:21 AM
300 dps burst is certainly doable (just chain nuke, with appropriate focus effects). It's not sustainable over the course of an adventure though, except perhaps in a rujark normal adventure. What really matters in LDoN is the sustained damage.

Grendul3164
05-13-2004, 11:29 AM
Perhaps, but thats still counted as burst DPS and not an accurate reflection of the class. "Druid DPS" is what we can effectively, and efficiently, do in damage on average. If you were going to parse burst dps (chain nuking till one of you die) you would also have to figure out medding time till you were efficient again.

-Grendul
Storm Warden of Zeb
Iratus Lepus

Kulothar
05-14-2004, 12:28 PM
Sorry about the bad grammar in a math statement, but that sentence was suppose to include the WS and SF dmg in the DPS. As for dots I only do 914 a Tick optimally (if more than one mob comes can only get the full dump on the second one) which is only 150~ DPS. Winters Storm has a theoretical dps of 54 (curious thing is you can cast WS multiple times on the same target due to its fast casting/recasting time) and Summers Flame 160 DPS but with spell haste and focuses should be more.. so that would be... let me get the calculator.. ummm 364 dps.. you were saying?

As for doing this, yes If I am not a healer, I cast HoR on the pull as part of my assist button, root the adds and start stacking DoTs. Once the dots are on I Cast WS, two SF, root and repeat. If four mobs are pulled I can usually get all 5 dots (and sometimes clicky Drones if plenty of time) on two mobs.

For reference, the max druid stackable Dotage is Winged Death(143) + Swarming Death(240) + Wrath of Nature55) + Tempest Wrath (75) + Immolation of Ro(140) + Vengeance of Tunare(300) + Drones of Doom (34) for 987 Per Tick and thats without focus. Add in Focus from Staff of Lost Rituals and you have a theoretical output of 1151.6 damage per tick prior to any AA affects. I dont have Tempest Wrath nor do I count minor clicky dots like burning sand since I don't use them.

I can keep spurt DPS up for usually two mobs before having to go back to medding. Of course if we had a good puller, I wouldn't have to do that and most of the time I only get up to 50dps on a mob before it is dead.

With a good puller I HoR, VoT, IoR, SD and then just nuke it down if it is still standing. With a good tank I usually dont have time to get off more than VoT and one nuke. So it is all relative to the group.

And that post not meant as a personal attack but was just pointing out that druids do get invited for things other than healer and didnt have much time to type.

Kulothar
05-14-2004, 01:26 PM
What the? Where are you fighting that your DPS is higher than elemental/time rogues? Especially with dots given nothing but bosses last over a minute. Youre wasting a lot of mana in dots if youre in say LDON - or you have lots of failures.

Well, first off the statement was made by Malrik that druids could not produce dps even though we know he can easily do it himself. As for higher than time rogues.. yes I have impressed a time rogue before.. but I could never sustain it for long. In fact I duo with a time rogue whenever he is on more than any other player and I act as the tank so he can backstab since it is easy for me to outagro him. And no.. the only failures I have had I can count on one hand and three of those were from when the patches kept making people go LD.

Lets say each LDON mob lasts one minute. You have all your spells (LDON included / GoD excluded) so you throw down VoT for 300/tick, Epic for 55/tick, and Drifting Death for 240/tick. Youre at 595/tick with those - roughly 100DPS for one tick. Youre epic cost you 10sec, the rest 2-4 each (im at work and dont remember the cast times), so you now have aprroximately 16seconds in casts + spell gem reuse so for numbers sake we say 20 seconds. Thats 40seconds for those dots - or 5 ticks. Thats 2975 dmg for 60seconds of fighting - or 49.5 dps. Wee. And yes I realize whatever yo cast first will have an extra tick in there but you can see it wont give you a 250dps increase.

True, LDON mobs should only last less than a minute. Unfortunately now that most of the high level players that were elemental/time geared have moved on it is hard to find a good LDoN group. Of the 150ish guild members we used to have with about 80 on each night, it is now impossible to get 6 together for a group so you end up with some very strange groups. Some of them have no puller so my job is to off tank and root off adds then dot them. My DPS from dots goes up significantly when you have 3 or 4 mobs rooted and just sitting there waiting for their turn to die. In a balanced group though, I tend to be FM and casting furriously just to get spells off before the mobs die. In groups with a cleric and either another druid or shaman where I don't have to heal, the following DoT's stack: SD/IoR/VoT/Epic/WD and Drones/Drifting but I cannot get those all to stack unless I am not healer and we don't have a puller so it is only a theoretical possibility most of the time. For DPS above 50 I chain cast Winters storm and Summers Flame with an occasional root when the old one breaks but that in not mana efficent at all.

Beasts dont get to count SD as part of their DPS, Enchanters dont care about theirs (but they wouldnt count voq it if they did) and bards certainly dont count their songs so we as druids really cant count our utilities either. DPS is standard to how much dmg you yourself output. So you're comparing something that wasn't ever a part of this thread, and if nothing else supports Malrik's point that we are used as utility - not DPS.

Obviously Malrik's doesn't know the right people since I do get asked to groups for my DPS. You are wrong if you assume that good groups only count your personal output as dps. Maybe only your and Malrik don't get invited for DPS but if you look at the posts several people have been. The post was that we wouldnt get invited because tanks get regen now. I have not seen that as having any affect since I was never invited for regen before.

Math is A+A=2A unless youre working with a different formula, which you are.

So no other numbers could add up to 2A ... humm let me see, if A = 2 then 2A =4. so you are saying only 2+2=4, sorry but I learned that 1+3 also equals 4 as does several other numbers if you count decimals or negative numbers. So by real math 6-2=4 (6 + negative 2 =4). So yes obviously I am working on what would appear to be a more realistic formula.

Why would you invite the classes you listed?
Enchanters = utility
Shaman = utility

So they have no affect on DPS? I guess they just get invited for KEI and Regen then. I guess what we need is a definition of Utility. My definition is too narrow evidently.

Warriors, monks and knights invite these classes to stay alive. Not for DPS. Again, youre comparing apples to oranges and scewing the argument. Its an argument of self DPS vs Group DPS - and we were only discussing self.

No, the original DPS was non-specific which is why I brought up group DPS since the conclusion was that druids had no DPS to contibute. The discussion was that druids did not contibute DPS and therefore were only invited for utility (ie regen) which I do not see when I play. I work as a team member when in a team so I take into account that a shaman/enc slowing a mob and hasting the tank affects how I play my characters since a DS is less affective than a debuff int those cases. So how am I scewing (SIC) the arguement? Sorry did you mean Skewing or Screwing? I assume Skewing as in tilting to my point of view.

Math major? That was a bit of a personal attack but thats ok we forgive you. Thank you, drive thru.

Not meant as a personal attack but true is an attack on what could be considered one sided or faulty logic based on ones point of view since most science majors are taught to deal with theoretical, negatives and algebretic variables. I am not sure of which profession deals with absolutes with a total lack of variables.

Thank you so much for forgiving me..

**Flame me if my DPS calculation is off, im at work and using GROSS generalizations.**

Thats ok, I am at work so don't have exact numbers either.

Baggwinn
05-16-2004, 10:44 AM
<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=5 bgcolor=#17386A><a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=154172><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>Baggwinn</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 0 (0.00 / Sec)</font></td><td colspan=11 bgcolor=#17386A align=right><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>Table by <a href=http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>EQ Companion 0.794 *beta* (build 1165) </font></a></font></td></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Wrath of Nature</td><td>15:36:56</td><td>15:39:39</td><td>0:02:44</td><td>1,540</td><td>6.0%</td><td>9.39</td><td>28</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.17</td><td>55 (28)</td><td>55 (1)</td><td>55</td><td>60</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Tempest Wrath</td><td>15:36:44</td><td>15:39:39</td><td>0:02:56</td><td>2,250</td><td>8.8%</td><td>12.78</td><td>30</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.17</td><td>75 (30)</td><td>75 (1)</td><td>75</td><td>60</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Immolation of Ro</td><td>15:37:20</td><td>15:39:39</td><td>0:02:20</td><td>3,667</td><td>14.3%</td><td>26.19</td><td>24</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.17</td><td>168 (1)</td><td>141 (1)</td><td>153</td><td>60</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Winged Death</td><td>15:37:20</td><td>15:39:39</td><td>0:02:20</td><td>3,677</td><td>14.3%</td><td>26.26</td><td>23</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.16</td><td>171 (3)</td><td>145 (1)</td><td>160</td><td>63</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Swarming Death</td><td>15:37:08</td><td>15:39:39</td><td>0:02:32</td><td>6,798</td><td>26.4%</td><td>44.72</td><td>26</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.17</td><td>288 (1)</td><td>242 (1)</td><td>261</td><td>60</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Vengeance of Tunare</td><td>15:37:14</td><td>15:39:39</td><td>0:02:26</td><td>7,776</td><td>30.2%</td><td>53.26</td><td>24</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.16</td><td>351 (2)</td><td>303 (1)</td><td>324</td><td>63</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>15:36:44</b></td><td><b>15:39:39</b></td><td><b>(00:02:56)</b></td><td><b>25,708</b></td><td><b>100.0%</b></td><td><b>(146.07)</b></td><td><b>155</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>100.0%</b></td><td><b>0.88</b></td><td><b>351</b></td><td><b>55</b></td><td><b>166</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>
<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=16 bgcolor=#800000><a href='http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?name=A+valorian+guardian'><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>A valorian guardian</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 25,708 (146.07 / Sec)</font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>0:00:00</b></td><td><b>0:00:00</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>


Found My FR Log.

<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=5 bgcolor=#17386A><a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=154172><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>Baggwinn</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 0 (0.00 / Sec)</font></td><td colspan=11 bgcolor=#17386A align=right><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>Table by <a href=http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>EQ Companion 0.794 *beta* (build 1165) </font></a></font></td></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Tempest Wrath</td><td>21:33:48</td><td>21:37:26</td><td>00:03:39</td><td>2,775</td><td>4.6%</td><td>12.67</td><td>37</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>0.17</td><td>75 (37)</td><td>75 (37)</td><td>75</td><td>61</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>non-melee</td><td>21:33:57</td><td>21:37:26</td><td>00:03:30</td><td>57,988</td><td>95.4%</td><td>276.13</td><td>46</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>0.22</td><td>1999 (1)</td><td>850 (26)</td><td>1261</td><td>46</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>21:33:48</b></td><td><b>21:37:26</b></td><td><b>(00:03:39)</b></td><td><b>60,763</b></td><td><b>100.0%</b></td><td><b>(277.46)</b></td><td><b>83</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>0.38</b></td><td><b>1999</b></td><td><b>75</b></td><td><b>732</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>
<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=16 bgcolor=#800000><a href='http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?name=Fennin+ro+the+tyrant+of+fire'><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>Fennin ro the tyrant of fire</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 60,763 (277.46 / Sec)</font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>00:00:00</b></td><td><b>00:00:00</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>


That was using Winter's Frost and Winter's Storm with Fury of E'ci for cold focus. I would land Swarming Death BUT with Staff of Lost Rituals and Debuffing far too much aggro is generated plus it leaves some slots open for the necros to have their way. Winter's storm isn't really viable on solo mobs due to the fact that it breaks root far too often and if the mob moves it'll miss a wave or two and for the mana cost it's a bit of a waste. It also has a reasonably high resist rate I've found. Again as regards efficiency I could put Drones of Doom on The guardian but along with all the other DoTs he has on him by the time you've cast all the others it's time to start casting again if you use either clicky bracer or the spell itself, leaving very little time to med.

The really annoying thing about the FR log is I didn't crit once, I was having an off day and probably crit 2 or 3 times in the entire night.

Just because I could, I decided to do a melee parse. This is against a green mob(Bella Helsin - Katta Banker) with 41% Haste, 961 Atk and otherwise unbuffed. (I know it's not a very long parse, thus it won't be very accurate but I forgot to turn of max number of hits per fight :banghead_ . This goes to show that if we want to produce some nice DPS ignore meleeing :P.

Weapon used was :

Hammer of Hours
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 1H Blunt Atk Delay: 30
DMG: 30 Dmg Bonus: 13 AC: 15
STA: +15 CHA: +15 WIS: +20 AGI: +25 HP: +165 MANA: +180
SV FIRE: +18 SV COLD: +18 SV MAGIC: +18
Required level of 65.
Effect: Time Lapse (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3630) (Combat)
Focus: Timeburn (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3843)
WT: 2.7 Size: MEDIUM
Class: CLR DRU SHM
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 8

I also used :

Bracer of the Stoutheart
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: WRIST
AC: 20
DEX: +15 CHA: +5 WIS: +10 AGI: +15 HP: +130 MANA: +130 ENDUR: +130
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15
Required level of 63.
Effect: Cleave I (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3883) (Worn)
Focus: Focus of Mediocrity (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3106)
WT: 1.5 Size: SMALL
Class: DRU MNK BST
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

That's the reason why there's some crit melee in there.

<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=5 bgcolor=#17386A><a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=154172><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>Baggwinn</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 0 (0.00 / Sec)</font></td><td colspan=11 bgcolor=#17386A align=right><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>Table by <a href=http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>EQ Companion 0.794 *beta* (build 1165) </font></a></font></td></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>crush</td><td>17:03:23</td><td>18:28:20</td><td>1:24:58</td><td>81,629</td><td>37.6%</td><td>16.01</td><td>1428</td><td>907</td><td>61.2%</td><td>0.46</td><td>126 (7)</td><td>3 (1)</td><td>57</td><td>22</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>- critical</td><td>17:07:32</td><td>18:25:36</td><td>1:18:05</td><td>3,194</td><td>1.5%</td><td>0.68</td><td>28</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.01</td><td>215 (1)</td><td>59 (1)</td><td>114</td><td>1735</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>non-melee</td><td>17:03:29</td><td>18:27:47</td><td>1:24:19</td><td>135,750</td><td>62.4%</td><td>26.83</td><td>166</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.03</td><td>1500 (15)</td><td>750 (1)</td><td>818</td><td>307</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>- Proc: Time Lapse</td><td>17:03:29</td><td>18:27:47</td><td>1:24:19</td><td>113,250</td><td>52.1%</td><td>22.39</td><td>151</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>100.0%</td><td>0.03</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>750 ()</td><td>750</td><td>337</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>17:03:23</b></td><td><b>18:28:20</b></td><td><b>1:24:58</b></td><td><b>217,379</b></td><td><b>100.0%</b></td><td><b>42.64</b></td><td><b>1594</b></td><td><b>907</b></td><td><b>63.7%</b></td><td><b>0.49</b></td><td><b>1500</b></td><td><b>3</b></td><td><b>136</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>

Grendul3164
05-17-2004, 12:52 PM
Nice Boggwinn - Ive been hoping for some actual parses and this helps a ton. In fact, Ive been considering bkp spent for a Hammer of Hours + shield since I am currently weilding a Greatstaff of Power and this helps a ton. I had no idea the HOH outputted such high dps - I assumed it was quite a bit lower. I may have to work towards a second toy now....

-Grendul
Storm Warden of Zeb
Iratus Lepus

Callahad
05-17-2004, 01:59 PM
For reference, the max druid stackable Dotage is Winged Death(143) + Swarming Death(240) + Wrath of Nature55) + Tempest Wrath (75) + Immolation of Ro(140) + Vengeance of Tunare(300) + Drones of Doom (34) for 987 Per Tick and thats without focus.

Remove Drones of Doom and place Vengeance of Nature. It's 215/tick, and stacks with all the above, including Vengeance of Tunare. And now if you have it, you can place Sylvan Embers (154/tick) instead of Immolation of Ro. That would come to 1182/tick. Add 20% focus, averaged at 10 : 1300/tick. Add 9% crit rate : 1417/tick, or 236 DPS.

Note : there are focii that seem much better than BA4. Discordant Fire for example, or discordant energy, seem to be 45% focii. Uncertain yet if there exists items with these focii for druids. It could add close to 30 DPS to the above setup if so...

Callahad

Baggwinn
05-17-2004, 02:21 PM
Staff of Lost Rituals
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
AC: 15
STA: +15 WIS: +12 INT: +12 HP: +125 MANA: +100
SV FIRE: +12 SV DISEASE: +12 SV COLD: +12 SV MAGIC: +12 SV POISON: +12
Recommended level of 60.
Focus: Accursed Affliction (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3108)
WT: 1.0 Size: SMALL
Class: CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

The focus was origianally Accursed Extension but became affliction when the Burning Afflicion items were introduced.


Gaelin's Tunic of Woodlands
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 49
STR: +10 DEX: +25 STA: +20 WIS: +25 AGI: +20 HP: +250 MANA: +215
SV FIRE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +30 SV POISON: +30
Shielding: +1%
Avoidance: +15
DoT Shielding: +4%
Required level of 65.
Focus: Discordant Energy (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4869)
WT: 3.5 Size: LARGE
Class: DRU
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 8

This has Discordant Energy but I don't believe anyone has one as of yet.

You could say about theoretical DPS but the only real way to test it is to parse it. The mana used from Vengeance of Nature instead of DoD clicky is quite hefty and in terms of efficiency, not very, er, efficient.

Callahad
05-17-2004, 02:41 PM
/nod

Plus, I have my doubts that Gaelin's Tunic of the Woodlands truly has Discordant Energy on it. If you look at Lucy's info, and the links that circulated the very first days GoD came out, you will notice *when* they came out. It is now apparent that the Gaelin tunic has not dropped at all, so far... Maybe those were Beta stats, maybe something has changed since then? I would much rather see Discordant Fire, for example, on it.

Callahad

Baggwinn
05-17-2004, 03:03 PM
Gaelin's Woodland Sandals
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: FEET
AC: 25
STR: +21 DEX: +19 STA: +20 CHA: +10 WIS: +20 HP: +215 MANA: +205
SV FIRE: +20 SV DISEASE: +20 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Stun Resist: +8%
Mana Regeneration: +5
Required level of 65.
Focus: Discordant Flame (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4863)
WT: 0.6 Size: MEDIUM
Class: DRU
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 8

Callahad
05-17-2004, 03:41 PM
That works on instant spells only. Though i do agree it would be tough to get Discordant Fire and Discordant Flame in the same armor set. Make it discordant ice instead!

Callahad

Malrik
05-18-2004, 07:54 PM
Well, first off the statement was made by Malrik that druids could not produce dps even though we know he can easily do it himself

hmm i said that? This is was closer to low dsp then no dps

I would honestly say that 19 out of the 20 invites I get form non guildies I am asked to main heal with about 50% + from guildies to main heal.

and

Dont get me wrong I am a Alter specialist, I like healing just as much as I like dealing out the damage. Hmm well to be honest I like healing better then I like damage. The fact remains that given the same level of gear there are about 10+ classes that out damage us.


Druids, I have no doubt, can push out some DPS. I was just saying that druid are downt the totem pole a bit where DPS is conserned. I have no doubt that I can out damage a time rogue in a one minute segment, I have no doubt that I can keep agro over just about anyone when I want, then again agro has nothing to do with dps (side note: the three highest spells in the game that generate agro is tash, slow and snare).

I was justin saying that in a 30-90 minute addy/trial there are a lot of classes that out damage us like Rogues, rangers, wizzies, mages, necros, ect. A major hit was that in LDoN and most GoD trials we do not even have access to a good portion of our spells, such as charm, to increase our dps. Again on adverage, I know i can charm a dog in ec normals, never try'd in a ec hard.

I dont have access to a time level rogue but I do have access to a ST/VT level rogue and I have no idea how I could ever compair to those 1k+ backstabs going off several times in a minute while that rogues does the rest of his melee dmg, proc damage. I have no idea how to compete with a range with full archery AAs and a decent bow/arrows.


Obviously Malrik's doesn't know the right people since I do get asked to groups for my DPS

I didnt say never I say that few and I even admited that I like healing better then dps and that may be a reason for those invites!

The post was that we wouldnt get invited because tanks get regen now

I do not believe that we will not get invites to groups because of Regen. We are not the only class that gets regen, regen in a bottle been around for a while. I said only gratz to melees for the better regen rate. Think this stuff is just derailing the thread but IMO dps is much more fun to talk about then if some tank can regen or not.

Why would you invite the classes you listed?
Enchanters = utility

I kinda disagree with this, I 2-box a chanter as well as play the chanter in ldon/god groups. A chanter has the highest potental DPS of all classes depending on the zone. Chanter charm rocks.

The discussion was that druids did not contibute DPS and therefore were only invited for utility (ie regen) which I do not see when I play

Not exactly, again the statement was that we add DPS but not near the ability on adverage as other classes out there. I dont remember ever when I was invited to any group because of regen.

Only point I was going for was that druid are only above a few classes for DPS, not that we cant do DPS at all, of course we can. Hell im sure boo boo and melee with my epic pushes out at least 2 dps but that is not near the 1k+ damage a hit that a rogue and a ranger easly and consistantly hits for.