View Full Forums : why did druids get clobbered so bad over the years?


harvey the dog
05-12-2004, 10:45 AM
when i started EQ i picked a ranger cause they sounded cool, but the first time i saw a druid in wolf form, and found out that they could teleport, i immediately abandoned my ranger and started, well, me.

but the two reasons i wanted to be a druid, wolf form and teleport, are now mostly worthless. i still use teleport, but wolf form has been destroyed.

why do you suppose sony did this? was it that other classes were complaining about us (which they were) or was it just lack of foresight by the developers?

i dunno, but i was thinking about this last night and couldnt figure out why this happened to our class in EQ. any ideas?

Moonnie
05-12-2004, 11:26 AM
I think the problem is made up from 3 parts

A) Legacy of the past

In the early ages of everquest (not been there but heared a lot about it) druids used to be pretty overpowered. Loots of tales about "dr00ds farming l33t lootz". Developers do not want this to happen again.

B) General spells VS specialisation

The current gaming enviroment asks for specialisation. You need all the cleric healing power and a wizard dps to reach the best effiency (if you not fighting to low content for you gear/AA)

C) change of the enviroment

Has a lot to do with point B, the new enviroment is almost totally forces grouping (safe for a few good solo spots) Druids are not the best choices in groups. Also new enviroment asks for group optimalisation not generalisation. You need 6 specialist chars instead of 6 chars who could fill in many roles.

WEDruidVZ
05-12-2004, 11:37 AM
Is this why I walk with a limp in wolf form????

Peregrinus
05-12-2004, 11:50 AM
I don't recall druids ever being overpowered. I'd say we're more powerful now than we ever have been before with the mini-CH line. Also, if the developers didn't want grossly overpowered farming (not something I think druids have anyway), they wouldn't have created the Bard class.

To address Harvey's point directly, though, I believe all the changes have more to do with Verant/Sony's attempts to attract/keep players across the board than anything else. The teleportation ability is undepowered now because of PoK. PoK was put in to attract those who could not deal with the size (read travel time and route complexity) of the world. Wolf Form and the rest of the outdoor-only spells are all victims of game designers trying to be too 'cute', in my opinion. In a game that was doomed from the beginning to be illogical, they tried to force some bits of roleplaying down the throats of the players. It's ridiculous to make 90% of the important events happen indoors and then give one class an abundance of outdoor only spells. The wolf-hatred prevalance in many zones is just...I can only think of the word 'retarded'.

Tiane
05-12-2004, 05:10 PM
The wolf form illusion nerf (some time between kunark and velious iirc) was a heavy handed and short sighted "fix" to some people taking advantage of the neutral faction and banking where they shouldnt, etc. (OMG the humanity!) Also as I recall, though I dont follow enchanter issues closely, once enchanters illusions had their faction issues fixed (i.e. they could do the same thing), and then again once they got Project Illusion, the whole wolf form nerf became rediculous in that it ONLY punished druids(and rangers I spos) and ignored the primary illusion class being able to do exactly what it was that got us nerfed in the first place. WHY the nerf remains in place to this day is simply typical of SOE's lack of interest in fixing legacy bugs and issues in the game.

Crescent
05-13-2004, 08:59 AM
I recall druids being considered "way way overpowered".. but it was way way back when.. original EQ, before the dot nerf (yes, now it's rescinded)

It's been so long ago that yes many 'newcomers' may not remember it but there was a great negativity towards many soloing druids.

Noliniel
05-13-2004, 09:37 AM
That's why we get called of dr00ds instead of druids back then. It was a bit overpower'ed from other class 's point of view. Though we are pretty blanced back then, imo. All the leet speak involing dr00ds or something lol. Teleport its still very useful alot of times. Not everyone wants to run from POK to WW or from Yxtta to POK. so yeah :p

Logilitie
05-13-2004, 09:51 AM
i dont' think druids are overpowered, BUT i have a bard i like to play too. and swarm kiting in my 40s & 50s felt like cheating.
i can do so many things as a bard it's unreal.
many noobs think i'm training, or gonna die as i have half the zone trailing behind me, and then they are shocked as i pick them off one by one.. and when all down i /shout DING! next level... haha!!

Sialata Anjelita
05-13-2004, 10:08 AM
How do you think I level? Get the boyfriend to play his bard.. jk. He's the one who wants me to level so I can raid with him. But anyways, bards are pretty overpowered compared to druids, in my opinion. I don't think I could solo 4 Glooms and the whole Gobbie camp in PoN by myself. He's not a twink by far either. All I do is SoE/BoR/Potc and watch him run around in circles. He is able to do it even with summoning mobs in that clutter. I doubt many druids (my level) could do that.

Moonnie
05-13-2004, 11:13 AM
I never meant to say druids are overpowered now. I just heared a lot of stories that druids where not well liked in the beginning of EQ. Port + Track + Dots was overpowered then. Not anymore

* Soloing summoning mobs is not hard, just need some defence AA. I solo summoning giants all the time i think most of us do.

* For a good laugh try to swarm kite with your druid, (need level 65, decent spell haste and innate camo). Pull all the stalkers then charm 1 .. let his budies kill it. invis at 10% or so dot it charm the next one .. etc. I normaly do it to annoy bards. They think swarmkiting is a class definer or something.

BTW, i also have a high level bard and altough there abilities are very cool they do pay a big price for it. As a bart you are constantly twisting songs, believe me that is not always easy when people around you are chatting. Bards have more power then other classes but pay the price in constant hard work.

Edit: Why is spelling so hard ?

Sialata Anjelita
05-13-2004, 01:11 PM
I've solo'd a few summoning mobs before but not the ones that hit for 200+. I barely have anytime to play anymore and when I do I get no group offers and most of my usual camps are taken. Most of us solo summoning giants? Heh.. well I guess I'm a crappy druid then. I'm not big on taking lots of risks to see if I can do things or not, maybe that's my problem.

That's what I do in PoN, swarm kite or charm Stalkers when the camp is open. I've only had 6 mobs on me there at once. If Stalkers are not open I go charm ravens and go to town killing whatever.

The way things are going I've become a solo dependant druid. I no longer get any good group offers anymore. That's fine with me, some of the time.

I don't really want to get into a big discussion about who is stronger than who because I'm not good at debates and what not. Besides, I can't really argue much as I'm only 61 and don't venture far from easy camps.

Moonnie
05-13-2004, 05:45 PM
All i can say hang in there. At level 63 you get Natures infusion and that will make you a better healer and more wanted in groups. You will never get tells like clerics or chanters but you should be okay then.

Also in time you will get more AA and gear becoming better in defence. Just relax and take your time :)

Sialata Anjelita
05-13-2004, 05:55 PM
All i can say hang in there. At level 63 you get Natures infusion and that will make you a better healer and more wanted in groups. You will never get tells like clerics or chanters but you should be okay then.

Also in time you will get more AA and gear becoming better in defence. Just relax and take your time :)
I can't relax with how my life is. When I do get the chance to zone out from the real world and play eq and then I have the worst time playing that's just frustrating.

The only reason I would like more grouping is that I'm not always focused enough for soloing and I end up drifting off and doing something stupid :rolleyes: .

aww well, that's my life.

Panamah
05-13-2004, 06:17 PM
I can't relax with how my life is. When I do get the chance to zone out from the real world and play eq and then I have the worst time playing that's just frustrating.


This might be an indicator that it is time to cancel the account, at least for awhile. Games are supposed to be fun.

Scirocco
05-13-2004, 06:47 PM
The only reason I would like more grouping is that I'm not always focused enough for soloing and I end up drifting off and doing something stupid .


Actually, I tend to lose focus more when grouped, as it often is incredibly boring. Drifting off while grouped will get 5 other people killed. At least solo I only get yelled at by myself....:)

Malrik
05-13-2004, 07:36 PM
I dont think druid were over powered log ago. I think peeps didnt like druid because they are like cleric are today and at one time chanters, 70% of them all are bots used to make plat or just ot port peeps around. With a druid is was not all that hard to get the levels need to gain the port spells solo or wil little help. I dont think SoE really liked that much, combined with the Necros solo play, SoE pushed yet again to make peeps group.

I believe the 3/4 damage DoT while moving thing was to slow down solo Necros and druid bots. Many of those necros and druid bots (some not bots) would go to RM and mass kite the HGs there. That would drive whole groups crazy watching a druid/necro run'n around toss'n a dot on each mob to gain agro then going after another before it was dead. Im not exactly sure but that is where the druids turned into dr00ds from what I understand.

Same story different day, SoE has for a long time nurfed solo play and pushed for group play, usually in the wrong ways.

Eridalafar
05-13-2004, 08:11 PM
Recall that a long time ago root and snare didn't stack, and that the dot spells was a lot more mana efficient that the nuke ones.

It was permiting to druid to solo-kill yellow and red mobs by ensnaring them and doting and running then stop for recast spells (and the mobs that stop when you are to far of them have come in Kunark) and with sow you was able to survive some add (by snaring them), but if someone or a group was in the way between you and your mob they was often get a full train on them. (recall it was before Kunark and the max level was 50 and BPC was see as an uber item).

And root-dot wasn't a viable choice at this time because the checks for a nuke to breack the root was begining before the domage of ours root was done and the fact that when the root was breacking the mab was running at full speed.

And the druid was see as one of the powerhouse class making a loot of idiot choising the druid class for fast leveling and farming.

Eridalafar

Sialata Anjelita
05-13-2004, 08:38 PM
The only reason I would like more grouping is that I'm not always focused enough for soloing and I end up drifting off and doing something stupid .


Actually, I tend to lose focus more when grouped, as it often is incredibly boring. Drifting off while grouped will get 5 other people killed. At least solo I only get yelled at by myself....:)
Grouping keeps me on my toes more, hehe. Have to pay attention to group :p .

This might be an indicator that it is time to cancel the account, at least for awhile. Games are supposed to be fun.

I play this game for more reasons than to exp and such. Things frustrate me in general so it's normal.

Logilitie
05-14-2004, 09:51 AM
i thought i remember the days when DoTs did less damage if the mob was NOT rooted... ( a moving mob took less damage from a DoT )
that the 3/4 DoT dmg you're talking about?

and the days of being in RM watching the UBER druid come there who apparently just got Winged Death and was cleaning house on every HG they could find.. how frustrating .. ( at the time i was playing a WAR thinking, damn i need to start one of them druid toons :P )

alyn cross
05-14-2004, 06:27 PM
/cackle here here, scirocco!

of course, my soloing lately has gotten me killed a fair share, but more for trying to solo mobs i should have no business soloing rather than falling asleep.

/cackles!

Kireiina
05-14-2004, 11:55 PM
Druids are extremely powerful, and thus get a lot of jealousy. Having a full set of utility buffs, the safest charm (not the widest application of course), second best heals, strong nukes and able to quad, kite and rot. Of course the disadvantage is being common, being seen as the "easy" class and not being specialists.

Didn't puppy basically become obsolete when horses came out?

Uuldiin
05-15-2004, 05:00 AM
anyone remember walkin around chapel area in pohate in wolf form ;) ah the good ole days


Edit: BCP for lyfe! still <3 that color.

harvey the dog
05-16-2004, 11:40 AM
druids are now a garbage class. i gambled in 99 and lost. oh well.

Fanra
05-16-2004, 12:51 PM
I never have figured out why they killed wolf form.

The only reasons I could come up with were:

1.) They hate druids
2.) They don't want people to have fun.

No other reason makes sense. Unless you figure that they wanted to stop wolves from banking with faction and instead of fixing it just destroyed the entire spell line.

My dream is to cast wolf form on myself and bite the nuts off the weenie at SOE who decided that druids shouldn't have fun.

Baggwinn
05-16-2004, 02:01 PM
"We can turn people into wolves who do not want to be wolves better than ANY other class."

I still get a lot of requests for Feral Pack during groups, as there isn't always a shammy/beast on hand for FA/Fero. It's a nice little spell. The problem many have with it I think is the movement in first person, when you start attacking a mob, puts your head between the mobs legs (~kinky). therefore you can't see the mob which is a bit of a pain and you have to keep stepping back every now and then. If you play with the sound on the barking can be quite annoying too (but the annoying sound of the year award goes to necro spectre pets!)

Sialata Anjelita
05-17-2004, 11:50 AM
Well it's obvious, people like to look at themselves, they like to look at me too :p . So they don't want wolf form messing with their staring.

I always found wolf form to be quite anoying when fighting. The yelping and going forwards and back to the point where I can't even hit the mob. But when I'm just messing around or whatever I'll use it. Only had low levels ask me for it and when it used to work for those banking iksars in kelethin. You know, back when eq was fun~

Kaige
05-18-2004, 02:43 AM
WoW druids look like they're going to put EQ druids to shame, its pretty sad.

EQdruids = :cool:

WoW druids = mean mother#@!%ing servants of nature! :robot:

Malrik
05-19-2004, 08:17 PM
the safest charm

Lol play a chanter sometime, the world of charm will take a whole new meaning.

Kulothar
05-20-2004, 10:53 AM
Actually in the begining we could heal almost like a cleric (4 lv difference) but we didn't have track. We got track after they nerfed DoT's. Druids were popular as group healers because of the combination of snare/DS (yes at those levels DS actually made a difference) and at higher levels regen and evac. Perma/LGuk/Sol B etc were not places you wanted to venture without a druid or wizzy that could evac you on a bad pull since CR's were a lot harder and took a lot longer. Even if you had a cleric in your group, you needed a druid or wizzy and wizzies tended to agro too much and die.

I don't know why SoE didn't like druids but the only class quest we had was for the tarnished scimitar and we didn't have any class armor. The class armor came into play when people reached the level that they could hunt CT and get rubicite. SoE removed rubicite and gave class armors, then they opened the temple in Lavastorm and created caster quest armor. Druids were left out of both. SoE finally gave us class armor when Fear was opened but it was heavy and didnt have wisdom on it. Just pitty the poor Half-elf druids since they didn't even get cultural items when they were introduced later on.

So basicly you had clerics upset because a druid could heal and had better group buffs and you had melee classes mad because we could Kite. Unfortunately you had a lot of bad kiting back then with people getting ran over and trained so that gave druids a bad rep. Root broke itself (Verant wouldn't admit that one for a long time) because it applied the root THEN the damage which broke root, so you couldn't root/rot back then. Our charm agro'd everything and broke easily, so charming was not very successful. For months we didn't know what Harmony did till Verant broke down and told us so it wasn't used. Basicly Druids were able to solo but when soloing tended to cause plenty of problems is they didn't watch out for others. And of course when people found that out, many created anti-social Dr00dz that didn't care if they caused others problems. Necro's were better at soloing but didn't tend to bother as many people.

Some of my best duos in the begining were with shamen and necros since we complemented each other. My best friend was a cleric that called me every time he got a group to be backup since they needed someone for Evac. There were paladins and sk's that went out of their way to find druids since they couldn't solo. Yes, druids were both popular and hated. You had friendly and liked druids and you had dispised and cursed Dr00dz.

Being generalist, every time another class got nerfed we got nerfed but since they were "pure" classes we only got "fixed" half of the time that they did.

Wyndalynn
05-23-2004, 10:14 PM
Back in the day most only like gruping/partnering with a druid was cuz of port and pl'n...that was nearly 5 yrs ago. Funny how most failed to see the abilities the druids have, imo they are the best overall class. You can do just about everything with them.

Of course with the "Cheal" we have now, seems that most of us are doing cleric roles now...I don't mind being main heal, sometimes preffer it. Tho, now it seems we are back to folks overlooking our overall abilities :b

Kulothar
05-28-2004, 10:39 AM
Wolf form died with Kunark when it agroed the guards and merchants you were supposed to be friendly with. The old stories of soloing red were for bragging rights and were not the "Norm". A lot of people didn't take into consideration that it was med kiting... ie.. Snare, Dot, run like crazy and med till the mob hits you.. I did the same thing with my SK and he could do it.. Those stories of kiting reds also include the fact that the person ran out of mana part way through and it took sometimes hours to finish. It was a lot quicker and more mana efficient to do several blues than spend several hours doing one yellow or red but people only saw the one side of the story.

And wolfform is perfect for fighting those pesky gnomes....

Zacory
09-03-2004, 02:55 PM
The wolf form illusion nerf (some time between kunark and velious iirc) was a heavy handed and short sighted "fix" to some people taking advantage of the neutral faction and banking where they shouldnt, etc. (OMG the humanity!) Also as I recall, though I dont follow enchanter issues closely, once enchanters illusions had their faction issues fixed (i.e. they could do the same thing), and then again once they got Project Illusion, the whole wolf form nerf became rediculous in that it ONLY punished druids(and rangers I spos) and ignored the primary illusion class being able to do exactly what it was that got us nerfed in the first place. WHY the nerf remains in place to this day is simply typical of SOE's lack of interest in fixing legacy bugs and issues in the game.

I guess I started EQ when Kunark was released. Could someone please explain what happened to nerf Druid Wolf form? I'm more curious than anything.

Zacory
Level 54 druid
Maelyn Starpyre

Dainnil
09-03-2004, 03:25 PM
When in wolf form you used to have neutral Faction so you could go anywhere and do anything as long as the zone was considered an outdoor zone.

Lotharun
09-03-2004, 06:13 PM
Track for Druids was in from the day I started late in 99 - certainly before Kunark and well before the anti DoT kite nerf.

Ellzii
09-05-2004, 03:24 AM
When in wolf form you used to have neutral Faction so you could go anywhere and do anything as long as the zone was considered an outdoor zone.

You used to be able to zone with wolf form as well. This is how High elf enchanters used to get their enchant metal spells out of Neriak. They just hired a Druid to go in and get em.

Zacory
09-07-2004, 01:50 PM
Ah Thanks for the response! I remember logging on while coming back to EQ from a longggg break. Used stone to um.. Grimmling Forrest (on moon?) and casting Wolf form. Ran a bit,, then all of a sudden some high level Barbarian NPC wacked me 3 times and I was dead dead dead. Sent some tells around and found that Wolf form can be KoS in some zones on the moon. I suppose that makes travel options on the moon restricted to Sow instead of Wolf form. /shrug

Thanks again!

Zacory
Lvl 54 Druid
Maelin Starpyre

Galadhriel
09-07-2004, 02:07 PM
Basically, just assume you are KoS to all npc's in wolf form. Change to wolf form far away from any npc's and then con them to see if they are scowling at you.

Kulothar
09-11-2004, 02:54 AM
Track for Druids was in from the day I started late in 99 - certainly before Kunark and well before the anti DoT kite nerf.

No, I was there, the DoT nerf was where if a mob was moving it took 33% less dmg from the DoT. That was a direct nerf from the complaints that druids could Kite yellows and that happened when I was lv 14. Tracking wasn´t given to druids till I was lv 22. When they introduced it I traveled to Riverdale and trained the same night it went on the live servers....

But true, it was a long time before Kunark came out.. If you are refering to any DoT nerf after Kunark came out it is not the major nerf we suffered pre-Kunark. When Kunark came out they nerfed quad-kiting by making mobs wander off when low on health so you couldn´t keep them in a group.