View Full Forums : Stealth Nerfed by Patch's


corlathist
05-12-2004, 04:42 PM
They changed the level of mobs in Vexx/Tipt/Kotd.

This makes for a wide variety of nerfs. Of which Druid Class is doubly hit, and hit hardest of any class in the game.

Charmed Nerfed:
As of now, no animal mobs remain level 60. Chanters can still find mobs to charm as they look around. But there are NONE for druids

Lull Nerfed
Lots of mobs in Vexx/Tipt/Kotd now con yellow, even red in Kotd. Yard trash.
This trash is now immune to Lull.

Obviously this nerf hits all 6 Lulling Classes (Clr, Dru, Ranger, Cht, Bard, Monk)
however the two with FD/FADE still have a pulling tool.

Solution: Please add to balance thread adjusting Harmony of Nature to work up to 67. ((would give us back an outdoor advantage to counter the anywhere advantege of other lulls)). As well as raising Charm Cap on Druids to be equal to Cht/Necro/Mage charm caps.

tawnos
05-12-2004, 05:04 PM
This makes for a wide variety of nerfs. Of which Druid Class is doubly hit, and hit hardest of any class in the game.
Chanters just lost the use of WoM and Colour Cloud which cap at 65. That hits a lot harder.

Paldor
05-12-2004, 05:20 PM
(edit)

If something is being "retuned" because its "difficulty" is set too high... How do you balance it by adding to its "difficulty"?

Mathmatical analysis:
x = difficulty of zone
y = reward
w = changes that lower difficulty
z = changes that increase difficulty

Situation:
X > Y

Logical Solution:

X-W = Y

Sony's Solution:

(X-(w)+(z)) = Y

Only logical if w > z.

How many want to bet that the "reduction of difficulty" is greater then "increase of difficulty?"

Sony always wants to make SOMETHING harder when they make something easier... its like Turrett Syndrome.
----

Tiane
05-12-2004, 05:52 PM
Lol... too funny Paldor... retuned indeed! If only I could put an extra R in there for some money back.

MadroneDorf
05-12-2004, 06:00 PM
Paladins cant stun most of mobs either, many class's ar ehit by it...

Although the mobs hit pretty low a lot now though so overall its sttill easier

corlathist
05-12-2004, 06:40 PM
True but I lost not just spells/abilities lost a whole "role" that was able to get groups with. Charm and Pulling. Other classes, still can do thier role, they just lost some spells that work on it

Kulothar
05-13-2004, 08:25 AM
What did you expect? When was the last time something was retuned and druids didn't get hurt? And yes it would be nice if there was another "R".

Noliniel
05-13-2004, 09:33 AM
Yxxta mob positions changed. Have fun now with those 2 yellow con archer and 2 even con dogs watching over you by the entrance..... All see invis btw !

Logilitie
05-13-2004, 09:39 AM
chanters may not want to charm a pooka for example now anyway.
they stopped hitting for 1200! and now hit for just a few hundred 300 - 500.

BuzWeaver
05-13-2004, 03:59 PM
One of the things that have concerned me about EQ is the lack of AI by the MOBs, this seems to be addressed in EQII thankfully. Now that Iíve left EQ and Iím playing other genres Iíve noticed that the AIís in games have greatly improved in the years Iíve not played them.

EQ seems to be about loading up MOBs with hit points just so that it takes a larger number of people to dish out larger amounts of damage, this gets very mundane and repetitive.

MadroneDorf
05-14-2004, 03:09 AM
mob hit spectrum maybe have been changed but if it was its marginal (like ~200ish) what was mostly changed was their atks, so they hit lower a lot more.

Re EQ AI. Its not the bset i think the biggest problem is that it evolved into what it is today, mostly due to how players treated aggro hate etc, and they dont really wanna break the mold because it might be too dangerous, and class's would need to be redefined or at elast new skill sets to deal with the new AI.

Also remember that almsot any AI once learned you can abused, lets say one prioritizes healers, you set it up so healers are in hard to get places, or coh them around or play ping pong etc etc.

Most MMORPG's that have better ai's, either still follow the basic mold of EQ (tank person trys to get aggro etc) or are relativly too new to really have the player base be familiar enough with the game to design strategies to counter AI.

Tiane
05-14-2004, 03:44 AM
Well, the thing is, mobs in EQ (and most other mmog's) dont really have any AI... they have basic scripts, with little adaptiveness and no learning ability. A real Mob AI would learn and adapt to whatever strategies a player came up with. Such a thing, though, was WELL beyond what was technologically possible when EQ was released (and probably even today.)

However, it's been suggested many times that they give at least *some* mobs an advanced real AI system, like bosses and such. At least that way they would be more than the standard "figure out the trick, then proceed to farm" that they have been for 5 years.

DemonMage
05-14-2004, 03:48 AM
But change is bad! It requires you to change! Maybe to think of new ways to beat the encounter. This is bad. This will cause whining!

Aly
05-14-2004, 03:54 AM
The best way to fix EQ...

1. Get rid of "Pulling". Period. No lulls, fades, pacify, whatever... nothing. Link the mob aggro.
2. Get rid of the current Hate list.
3. Make the mobs hit hard, but die fast... and throw lots of them at the group.
4. Make every class melee combat capable in a pinch, except against boss type mobs.
5. Get rid of snare, root, mez, all forms of crowd control. If you can't tank it... you shouldn't be fighting it.
6. Use the graphics engine that GuildWars is using. I've had 40 mobs on the screen chasing me, casting spells, and fighting without any lag. That was fun. No chance of surviving that mess... but it was fun.

MadroneDorf
05-14-2004, 07:21 AM
The best way to fix EQ...

1. Get rid of "Pulling". Period. No lulls, fades, pacify, whatever... nothing. Link the mob aggro.
2. Get rid of the current Hate list.
3. Make the mobs hit hard, but die fast... and throw lots of them at the group.
4. Make every class melee combat capable in a pinch, except against boss type mobs.
5. Get rid of snare, root, mez, all forms of crowd control. If you can't tank it... you shouldn't be fighting it.
6. Use the graphics engine that GuildWars is using. I've had 40 mobs on the screen chasing me, casting spells, and fighting without any lag. That was fun. No chance of surviving that mess... but it was fun.

Thats not fixing EQ unless you mean by fixing castrating it.

Its very hard to change too much because people play games mostly because of the way they are, change it too dramatically like above and its not the same game, the biggest problem is people get "bored" of a certain way the game is played but they dont want to give up their characters.

I'll be first to admit EQ needs to be fixxed and looked over a lot, but things like that are basically changing the game so its not everquest anymore. (Although one coud say the everquest of today isnt like the everquest of 5 years ago, that has a lot of truth)

WEDruidVZ
05-14-2004, 08:45 AM
Nuts!!! I don't want my druid to melee over casting at anytime. Casting classes are exactly that...CASTERS. How would making melee fix EQ? If I want to melee fight, I'd create a melee class toon...heck, let's all wear the same color and type of uniforms, march in groups, say the same exact things and in the end, call us lemmings as we march off the cliff and die by the thousands...

Scirocco
05-14-2004, 08:50 AM
Thats not fixing EQ unless you mean by fixing castrating it.


Heh...you ought to know by now that Aly went to the Marquis deSade School of Game Design....:)

Arienne
05-14-2004, 10:36 AM
Aly's solution sounds fine to me. Log into a character selection screen and have one class with 50 faces to choose from. There would be no lag because there would be no one else playing. :)

Getting a group together might be tough tho... Oh well... there are drawbacks to everything. But in the end, it would fix EQ because there wouldn't be any EQ :D

Hmm... could work!

Aly
05-14-2004, 11:08 AM
*sighs* You all missed the point. EQ's game design is outdated. They need to do something to shake things up and make the game interesting and fun to play again. Changing the way people play would definately do that. Get rid of the old single pull grind.

Nuts!!! I don't want my druid to melee over casting at anytime. Casting classes are exactly that...CASTERS. How would making melee fix EQ?

What I meant by people being melee capable in a pinch... is that you would do a decent amount of melee damage during combat and still be able to cast spells while fending off a mob. It wouldn't mean instant death for a caster to actually tank a mob if they got aggro (unless of course it was a Boss type mob).

Example: Ruins of Crysanth - Filled with lots of undead. The group enters the dungeon and comes into a main hall that used to be a gathering place for the priests that dwelled there long ago. Ten skeletons and a zombie or two rush the group (War, Clr, Wiz, Rog, Dru, Monk). The warrior and monk grab the most aggro thanks to certain abilities and tank the two higher level zombies and some skeletons. A couple skeletons mob the cleric and one each tackles the druid and wizard.

Now instead of this meaning instant death for the wizard and druid, they can melee and cast spells. It becomes a huge combat full of excitement and the chance to be overwhelmed, with the druid doing more than just a DS or a nuke or two. The wizard could drop an AE spell on the mob of undead. Instead of each fight being a single boring pull, it becomes a crazy melee of confusion.

Also, make it so there is little to no downtime between fights unless the group is terribly overpowered or unlucky. I hate sitting around doing nothing except waiting for mana to regen. Y'know, come to think of it, that is how I played my cleric in her 30's. The LDoN mobs were just strong enough to be a challenge, but with a bard or chanter in the group, my cleric could pull and tank while keeping the group healed, even with mass pulls as I was wont to do. Unfortunately you're limited to the mid-levels in being able to play LDoN adventures that way.

GuildWars is great in that respect. Usually end up with 3-5 mobs attacking the group at the same time. Combat is fast and brutal. Even the caster classes can stand toe to toe with a single mob and have a decent chance of coming out alive. There's no taunt abilities at the moment, maybe they'll add them during the beta. If you have broadband, you should check out GuildWars. It's fast, very little downtime, and just plain fun.

The instanced missions are great and the zones are huge with no lag. For an alpha preview, GuildWars is surprisingly fun. EQ could learn a lot from GW. The longest I had to wait after a battle is when I got poisoned and needed to wait for it to subside. Oh, I also found the Ancient Burrower. Seems it migrated from EQ to GW. ^.^

Aly's solution sounds fine to me. Log into a character selection screen and have one class with 50 faces to choose from.

No... I would bring back specialized roles for each class instead of the generalizations that have happened to EQ over the years. Revamp them to be much more inline with what they were originally meant to be.

WEDruidVZ
05-14-2004, 12:00 PM
Aly, I don't think I did miss the point, and from your point of view you are probably correct in what you feels the game needs. I personally like the game, but not having played for years, this is why is said ďnutsĒ. Did not mean any offense, but for me it seems fine, as far as game mechanics, the way it is and that has been the subject of debate in many threads here: older player versus younger players, in terms of length of time playing the game and how the game should be, how it was back when.<BR>
When I group, which admittedly isnít all the time, I donít ever remember dyingÖI grouped last night in POI and POJ, agroíd mobs a couple times, no big disaster, maybe got down to 70% hp before the group got it back under control with the other mobs. I am not a melee, but I think I can handle my own, given the spells I have to use: HEAL, DS, DD, DOTís, root/snare, etc. Which is my point. I have spells because Iím a Druid, and I use them to do whatever ďDPSĒ I can that best fits the situation. Again, from my point of viewÖI use the game mechanics as it is and have fun with it.<BR>
Now, letís take the Ruins of Crysanth thing. A group of 6 walk into a room and get rushed by 12 mobs? The game just wasnít designed to make this the norm, and if it was, I wouldnít be playing, at least not as a druid, which I believe is your point about making everyone melee capable. But instead, letís make all classes casters. All mobs are caster based as well. Some would be defensive casters, some offensive; some heal based, both for PC and NPCís. And when youíre out of mana, you melee then, but your weapons do at best 10-20 dmg. Same with NPCís. Sound fun doesnít it? Again, IMO, no! I didnít join the game for that kind of play. My opinion is exactly what I stated in my first post, as was yours. I respect yours, but totally disagree (I heard itís a ďrightĒ or something)<BR>
EQ is a game, and as such I choose of my own free will to play it, based on the rules and mechanics SOE has put into it. If I donít like it, then I quit and find something else, which, BTW, I will be trying WOW, but havenít decided to quit EQ because of it. I want to see what it has to offer. If you donít like the state of the game, and it really bothers you that bad, find something else to play. I donít like several things about the game, have posted same, but none to the point of re-engineering the entire game play just so I can have fun.
They need to do something to shake things up and make the game interesting and fun to play again. Changing the way people play would definitely do that. Get rid of the old single pull grind.
IMO, why? The game IS interesting!! For me, thatís why I still play. Like golf, hardest game, in RL, there is to master. It can drive you nuts, make you throw things, break thingsÖit can even drive you to drink, but DONíT ever think about changing it because itís not fun anymore!!!!! Fun is what you make of it, and as frustrating as golf is, people play it for what it is. If you keep hitting your shots into the water, you donít redesign the course, you learn NOT to hit it into the waterÖEQ is the same. If you canít find fun in what it is, leave.<BR>
And Iím not picking on you directly, I see tonís of threads here from EX-players who quit long ago, yet feel the need to rant about the game still, how bad it is or what ever. And lotís of CURRENT people leaving because of recent game expansions that go on and on about the game needs this and the game needs that. They have the right to do so, but they also have to understand not everyone feels the same, and wonít just jump on the same bandwagon as them because they have an opinion.

Erianaiel
05-14-2004, 12:58 PM
But change is bad! It requires you to change! Maybe to think of new ways to beat the encounter. This is bad. This will cause whining!

People will whine regardless so as developer you might as well ignore it and go with what you think is best. Improving the AI of monsters is not that hard to do really. What is hard is to get it just right, because sadly it does not require a whole lot AI to be smarter than the average player...

The biggest drawback is that, as monsters learn, they become too 'smart' for players new to the content. By the time the mob has learned to cope with the top guild raids of 120 elemental geared players, the next guild attempting the encounter with the 3 groups it was designed to take is going to be not just wiped but utterly annihilated.

Improvement would go a long way simply by randomising encounters more. The boss can be guarded by 3, 4 or 5 monsters, and there is no telling what class they are. Or if more friends are going to show up during the fight. Also, they should wander around a lot more, making setting up camp to buff a lot more difficult. Increasing the awareness radius would significantly increase the chance of adds during a fight. Making supposedly intelligent monsters call for help, or sent one of their own back to call for reinforcements and any encounter has the potential of a lot of variability. And of wiping, which is the downside of making things more challenging.

Add to that different scripts the monster has for encounters and it suddenly becomes a lot more difficult to prepare for a specific encounter because they will never be quite the same. I.e. if the monster is being zerged he can start banishing at random (i.e. teleport attackers to remote corners of the world) or area stunning, to even the odds to the point that this particular script is less likely to be triggered due to a more reasonable number of players in the raid at any given time. Other scripts would deal with the typical strategies that players can come up with. Counter messures would include targetting specific classes or spells, calling for reinforcement (i.e. counter zerg the raid ;), area effects or focussing on a specific target, running away, keeping the distance and use spells/ranged attacks, and so on..
All it would require is some keeping track of numbers (attack choices, damage done, damage avoided, damage healed) a few ticks back into the fight and see what the players did, and selecting at random one of the possible response scripts for the next several ticks of combat tailored to counter what the players are actually doing at that moment. The result would be unpredictable fights where the monsters try to do, within their abilities, what works best against the player group attacking them.

The problem is that it would require good players who know their game and how to work together to actually prosper under such circumstances. Unfortunately those are not the majority of the 400000 everquest players. It is not casual friendly, and it would pretty much make pick up groups impossible. It is therefor not something Sony is going to want to implement.

Eri

Kellory
05-14-2004, 02:59 PM
What I meant by people being melee capable in a pinch... is that you would do a decent amount of melee damage during combat and still be able to cast spells while fending off a mob. It wouldn't mean instant death for a caster to actually tank a mob if they got aggro (unless of course it was a Boss type mob).

I can see where your going here, but forgive me if I disagree that this is a good solution. I play caster types because I like not having to mash a melee button every 5 seconds or look around wondering what mob I should attack next or whatever it is melee's do when they're not bleeding. If I wanted to be able to cast and do damage at the same time, I'd be playing an SK.

While EQ has a lot of problems, class roles are not it. If people did not like their roles in the game they wouldnt play. Class balance and the abilities you have in those roles are an entirely seperate thing.

And then there is meditation. Give all casters Yalup IV? Allow them to regen mana at the same rate standing and attacking as sitting? Allow them to do the same damage melee as with spells? Heck, why play a melee? Why not just for groups with 1 melee for primary damage and 5 casters? Of course, I pity the poor warriors and monks and rogues who will find themselves unemployed since they are one trick ponies in the melee vs casting regards.

Also, make it so there is little to no downtime between fights unless the group is terribly overpowered or unlucky. I hate sitting around doing nothing except waiting for mana to regen. Y'know, come to think of it, that is how I played my cleric in her 30's. The LDoN mobs were just strong enough to be a challenge, but with a bard or chanter in the group, my cleric could pull and tank while keeping the group healed, even with mass pulls as I was wont to do. Unfortunately you're limited to the mid-levels in being able to play LDoN adventures that way.

Downtime is integral to any game. Be it MMORPG or console. It just hurts more in an MMORPG because there are no cheat codes or ways around it and in the end, it adds up to a lot more. But without downtime there's no socialization. And if all your doing in your group is killing, why group at all? Why not play a game where you can just solo all day long? There are other reasons for downtime from a developer's standpoint too. But in the end, a game without downtime is just as boring as a game with too much of it. You need to strike a balance.

No... I would bring back specialized roles for each class instead of the generalizations that have happened to EQ over the years. Revamp them to be much more inline with what they were originally meant to be.

The problem with EQ isnt generalization of the classes. That has helped EQ live as long as it has. The only class it has really hurt is the druids because we're the only generalist class in the game with no specialization to offset everyone becoming more generalized. Most, if not all, classes today are both specialists and have a number of generalist abilities. Druids, on the other hand, are just generalists with little to offer any except second and third tier groups who are unable to find a cleric or wizard or other specialist for second and third tier content.

I admit generalization probably hurt monks more since they are too specialized, but that was more in how SoE killed their offensive damage and defensive absorbtion without giving any sort of compensation for their already weak abilities.

While I do believe EQ is broken currently, I dont see this as the fix. A wide ranging change of how the game itself works is probably both impractical and would lead to many of us leaving in the end because EQ no longer is EQ. My parents live in a nice house. Its quite big, but it has a lot of problems. There are leaks, is pretty far from civilization, constant termite issues, dry rot problems, maintanence, etc. They could move to, or build, a much nicer and newer house without a problem. But they never will because their current house is their house. They would never live anywhere else. Problems and all. To me EQ is much the same. It has its issues, but in the end its better than all the other alternatives which have tried to make positive "changes" and only failed in the end.

Aly
05-14-2004, 07:38 PM
*sighs* You're all still missing the point.

Getting rid of crowd control, single pulls, and main tanks would make the game a helluva lot more exciting. I'd rather barely pull through a massive fight with 12 or more mobs than single pull grind all day long. Currently, you have to fight really low level monsters to get that kind of fun, but they aren't worth it.

Make single group dungeons one way with rests spots here and there if needed. Normal mobs hit hard and die fast. Boss mobs hit just as hard but take longer to die and really, only meatshields should be tanking the boss mobs. Anyone else can tank the normal mobs. My wizard in D&D stood toe-to-toe with a Marilith once. Sheer luck and a good selection of spells was the only thing that kept me alive. And that was a blast. All around us lower level demons were blasting the party. The marilith turned on me (over aggro'd you could say) and took a couple swipes.

One good hit from her would've killed me. However, against the lower level demons I could actually stand my ground and use my spells to kill them. I wasn't worried unless two or more started looking my way. I want that kind of excitement in a MMORPG. EQ could have been that way, but certain skills and spells drove it in completely the opposite direction. EQ was supposed to be as I envision it, but players using spells and skill differently then how the devs thought they would be used turned it into the craptastice grind it is today.

Gates of Discord was a step in the right direction. It was challenging. Very challenging in some places. Mobs hit hard, but died fast. And people whined because they couldn't do their safe and easy single pull grind. I couldn't care less about winning. All that matters to me is the fun I have along the way.

Downtime is integral to any game. Be it MMORPG or console.

:bs:

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with that statement. 1000% I've been playing the GuildWars E3 demo. No downtime at all and it's a blast. Lots of mobs to fight at the same time. Any class can tank in a pinch against the normal mobs. The dual class system is really interesting. And it's just plain fun to play. Even the PVP... well, except for knockdown spells and skills. I hate knockdown. It ruined pvp in SWG as well.

But like I said, there's almost no downtime in GuildWars. I hope it stays this way. It's just fun to play and in a good group... it's constant action and excitement with fighting all over the place.

IMO, why? The game IS interesting!! For me, thatís why I still play.

EverQuest is no longer interesting to me. The mass choice for leveling is to sit in one spot and grind. If you try to take anyone "adventuring" (aside from LDoN), they balk and you end up sitting around LFG some more. And in LDoN, most people do the same old lull, single pull all the way through the whole adventure. I am sick and tired of ganging up on the mobs one at a time. Linked aggro that nothing will get around would go a long way towards making EQ fun and interesting again.

Less crowd control and more effort on the groups ability to work well together would make the game a lot more fun. It'd also help create more group friendly guilds, because you'd naturally gravitate towards the skilled players that are online when you are. In most xp grind camps, you take whoever as long as they're somewhat competent and have the right spells or class.

The most fun I had in EQ in the last year was the first time I did the Bertoxxulos event in the Crypt. The monks were bringing in 10-12 mobs at a time and as a rogue I even tanked a couple. The healers in my group didn't like that... but using the new disc system, it was feasible every now and then for me to hold aggro. Massive chaotic battles with spells and arrows flying every which way; charges, counter charges, retreats and regrouping... that would be a helluva lot more fun than just single pulling one mob at a time. To encourage multi-mob pulls, they should create something like the xp chain in FFXI. For each mob you kill within a certain timeframe, you get an increasing bonus to xp.

EQ is just boring these days. Its players are boring. Too much time is needed to do anything it's not worth it.

Feldaran
05-14-2004, 08:14 PM
Sounds wonderful, but people don't want to die in MMOG's because the death penalty is so harsh. So they take the safe way over the exciting way. And, well, the less opportunities you give your unknown group mates to show their lack of skill, the better.

That's what happens. In CoH, its fine to have those kinds of exciting battles, mainly because everyone pretty much can run away. Most MMOG's don't let you run away (FFXI anyone? The moment you got into a fight with a mob tougher than you, you were dead).

Aly
05-14-2004, 10:31 PM
GuildWars gives you a -15% penalty to HP and Energy when you die that goes away as you fight mobs. If you die four or five times in a row... you're screwed on that mission and you start over fresh. Everyone has access to one rez per mission while monks have access to various types of rezzes that can be used multiple times. It's not so bad dying, but if you die a lot near the very end or total party wipeout... it hurts a bit.

Mellen
05-15-2004, 01:47 AM
Don't think that was done as part of the retuning... retuning was largly geared towards the first zones of god that were like 90% unutilized.

Pretty sure what happened was they wanted to up the exp in the harder zones (tipt/vxed+), only instead of just raising the zem or exp:kill they raised the mob lvls instead to get the mob lvl bonus.

Proper solution would be to put the lvls to where they were and just change the exp or zem. Raising the lvls was ill thought out and just broke so many things that are lvl based like charm (like we really did that made much of a diff for us in gates =p), lulls, mezzes, stuns, and best of all makes every spell a bit harder to land.

WEDruidVZ
05-15-2004, 06:55 AM
We did NOT miss the point, unless you think all of us have...read the posts here, Hmmm, how in favor say "aye"...Yep, the sound of silence....It's useless, it won't change, not worth wasting time bantering back and foth about why the sky's blue type of conversation...

Aly
05-15-2004, 10:26 AM
I never said it would change. I was just pointing out the kind of changes it would take to make EQ a fun and interesting game that will stand against the coming competition. Having played some of those upcoming games and watched a friend play the WoW beta... EQ is going to suffer horribly in the coming months, hence all the money grabs by SoE to get as much out of it now as they can.

EQ is not fun. It is boring, boring, boring. The only thing that makes the game tolerable, is the friends you make in the game. If this was a single player game, most people wouldn't bother past the first week of level grinding. Just because a game is a MMOG doesn't mean it has to have massive timesinks and downtime. It's a ridiculously stupid concept designed to artificially increase the lifespan of the content. EQ needs to get rid of the downtime and timesinks. Timesinks do nothing but aggravate people that just don't have the time to devote to what is basically a part-time job.

They also need to change mob tactics, get rid of single pull grinding and get rid of camping. They also need to give each class specialized roles. Druids, if they want to keep their broad range of skills, should understand that before playing one or continuing to play one. You're going to suffer in group/raid desireability if you want to play a generalist class. Druids can't be good at everything and exellent at something else. It's not fair to the other classes that excell in one area but suffer in most other areas.

If they changed all this stuff EQ would be fun and interesting again. I bet a lot of older players that have quit would come back to try out the new content since it's no longer the same old target one mob, blast it to bits, rinse, repeat. Backflagging and key quests would be much easier to complete with no timesinks. New members and old out of date members of guilds would be able to catch up to the guild instead of being left in the dust all the time.

Seriously, how can you not see that EQ is terribly flawed in the current game market? Maybe the lame timesinks were fine when EQ was the only one around... but the competition that will hurt EQ is coming. GuildWars, WoW, SWG:Jump to Lightspeed. They're all looking great, fun, with little to no downtime or major timesinks. Horizons will be the next game on my plate in the meantime if my job interview in 30 minutes goes well. ^.^ The dynamic events sound great. So much better then EQ.

So what is it that makes long timesinks, non-dynamic content, craptastic downtime frun again? Cause I'm not seeing it.

Noliniel
05-15-2004, 10:49 AM
Hi, Guild wars isn't a MMORPG. You don't even need to pay a monthly fee to play it. Give it a few and the game will die out due to lack of support etc.. imo. Also Aly, what you describe isn't EQ and it is impossible to change it at all. So instead of whining EQ needs to change like this and like that. How boring and stupid it is. You should acutally consider if those ideas are possible before you post them. Lots of players enjoy the way EQ it is. ( Well before GOD anyways ) Change that would just make EQ a totally different game. Those are great ideas for a game that would die out in 2 months since released ( cause its soo boring, duh ) but for EQ, No thanks.

Aly
05-15-2004, 12:20 PM
What the hell kinda of statement is that? You have to have a monthly fee for a game to be a MMORPG? Baloney.

edit:
Ok, so they're not calling it a MMORPG. Instead they're calling it a Competitive Online Role Playing Game, but even so, it still shares all the qualities of a MMORPG.
:end edit

GuildWars is massively multi-player. They don't have different shards/servers for the game. Everyone's on one world so to speak. There is plenty of role playing elements in the alpha build. And finally, it's online. Seems to have all the elements of a MMORPG. Did you even try the E3 for Everyone demo? The missions were a blast to play and gave a lot of background info on the lore of the world. It wasn't a chore to play. It was fun. I did all 5 of the missions plus the Stone Summit mission to defeat Rotscale (undead, poisonous bone dragon) and it was so much fun.

Almost everyone in the demo was having a blast and was not happy it was only up for three days. I heard very few negative comments. Had very few bugs, which was really surprising for an alpha build. I only had one skill that didn't work properly and I promptly /bug'd it.

As for continued support... guess you didn't read very much on their website. The streaming technology they use uploads new content to your computer all the time in the background when it becomes available. It'll allow them to continually add new content all the time without need for major patches. They pathed the servers several times while people were still playing. All you had to do was log out, log back in and it was patched.

Also Aly, what you describe isn't EQ and it is impossible to change it at all. So instead of whining EQ needs to change like this and like that. How boring and stupid it is. You should acutally consider if those ideas are possible before you post them. Lots of players enjoy the way EQ it is.

It is not impossible to change. Those ideas are very possible. It would just take some big brass cahonies on the dev team to implement them and a persuasive PR guy to convince the investors it's the right thing to do. Like I said before, I'm not saying they should change EQ that way. I'm just saying that's what it would take to keep EQ fresh and interesting and fun in the game market. You can only play so many games... and if one game takes up all your time with stupid timesinks and hideous downtime, you're probably not going to play that much longer if there are better options out there.

I'd rather play several games that I can play in small chunks here and there then be forced to play one game that is more like a second job. Cause that's what EQ is if you want to see the entire game. It is a second job. No game should be that way.

Those are great ideas for a game that would die out in 2 months since released ( cause its soo boring, duh ) but for EQ, No thanks.

We'll just see how well GuildWars does when it releases to retail. We'll see how well WoW does when it goes live. I'm betting they completely blow EQ out of the water. And unless the devs get a clue-by-four, EQ2 will only marginally succeed if they keep stupid timesinks and craptastic downtime in the game.

Feldaran
05-15-2004, 01:50 PM
I found Guild Wars boring as sin, reminded me too much of diablo. I yawned my way through a couple of "quests" and gave up.

Katnips
05-15-2004, 06:00 PM
I played GuildWars a couple of the days it was available. I found it to be enjoyable and fun. I really enjoyed the first quest. Scared the piss out of me when I triggered the timer at the end and saw a bunch red dots on the radar start moving. I went the wrong way and ended up with at least twenty of the Charr chasing me. The rest of the group ran the right way and cheered me on as I made a last stand at the gates to delay the Charr long enough for the others to make it back to the garrison.

Perhaps you looked at the game in the wrong way Feldaran. I imagine it will be highly enjoyable in retail with a group of good friends. Friends more often than not, make or break a game for me.

Feldaran
05-15-2004, 08:11 PM
Perhaps, but my friends felt the same way about it as I did ;).

Aly
05-16-2004, 04:55 AM
This message is hidden because Autumn10 is on your ignore list.

Don't waste your time Autumn. 8p

I found Guild Wars boring as sin, reminded me too much of diablo. I yawned my way through a couple of "quests" and gave up.

Really? What was so boring about it? I mean, damn, it had no downtime. No massive timesinks. Just some fun missions to do and pretty innovative pvp battlegrounds. I've never had so much fun playing pvp in an online game. Tactics were a real consideration as was skill selection. The random 4 vs 4 matchups were really fun. You never knew who you were going to be teamed with and sometimes, you got real stinkers for groupmates. Other times you meshed so well you would get runs of 30+ wins with the same team. (If your team won, you stayed together for the next round.)

Did you try the Stone Summit quest? That was a damned difficult the first time. Tundra giants flinging huge boulders at your head from a couple hundred feet away and knocked you on your butt almost every other shot. Then they'd stomp the ground once you got close and would knock everyone around them down. Mobs used ranged attacks. It was pretty damn cool actually. The lightning drakes were a real pain in the butt considering lightning energy did extra damage to people in metal armor.

One or two of the drakes could flat out one round a warrior from full health if they were unlucky. We made the rangers not in metal armor lure the drakes and take the spell hits. They could withstand it much easier. The undead dragon, Rotscale at the end of the Stone Summit mission contanstly poisoned people that were in melee range. It was brutal the first time I faced Rotscale. No monk had the skill to remove poison. Total party wipeout, but it was a blast. We had one last chance to kill the bone dragon, but one of the minions that guarded the dragon blasted the last standing warrior with a lightning orb. Kersplat.

If EQ were (I'm not saying they should, so get that straight) changed to be similar to upcoming and existing games in regards to quests, timesinks, class balance/specialization, and downtime, I would come back to EQ again. As it stands now, EQ is just far too much like a second job. Not even the friends I made were worth staying the game, because the lack of character advancement was boring. There was nothing I could realistically do in a reasonable amount of time with a single group that would upgrade my gear.

And I hate the uber guild politics and timesinks. They're just lame and pointless.

Aly
05-17-2004, 03:07 AM
This message is hidden because Autumn10 is on your ignore list.

Don't waste your time Autumn. Better yet, do the same thing. Put me on ignore and there won't be anymore problems. K?

Tinsi
05-17-2004, 12:59 PM
It is not impossible to change. Those ideas are very possible. It would just take some big brass cahonies on the dev team to implement them and a persuasive PR guy to convince the investors it's the right thing to do.

No PR guy is going to think it's the right thing to do when they see that their entire player base minus -one- thinks it's the crappiest idea since forever. That taken into consideration, it -is- impossible to change.

There are games out there like you describe, go play them.

Man, I thought the day I agreed with Autumn would never come. What you are describing Aly, isn't EQ. It's a completely different game. I understand you do no longer play everquest, so you might want to try out different other games to find one that suits your idea of what is fun and what you want, because it's obvious that what EQ can and will offer isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with that. We all like different things. But only because you like something I don't like, and vice versa, doesn't entitle you to try to change what -I- like into your favorite thing.

Ladred
05-17-2004, 02:01 PM
I played Guild Wars every day for the Alpha trial, and found it entertaining. EQ it isn't though. I think it'll end up being a tool that MMO's use to gauge a guilds internet penis, so to say. I know I'd be up for a little guild wars pvp action to settle some scores with a rival eq guild. Then again, there would be several factors that could counterweigh one guilds success. The best part about GW that I found was the assault/defense mission. Where as it was easy as sin to defend that little fort, it was horribly difficult to attack. That one successful attack that we had though was amazing, and satisfying enough that the group I was with ended up successfully defending the fort for thirteen more rounds. Guild Wars isn't an MMO, it is a tool that guilds in MMO's can use to battle each other, which is why I think it is called "Guild Wars".

Aly
05-17-2004, 03:58 PM
That one successful attack that we had though was amazing, and satisfying enough that the group I was with ended up successfully defending the fort for thirteen more rounds. Guild Wars isn't an MMO, it is a tool that guilds in MMO's can use to battle each other, which is why I think it is called "Guild Wars".

Yes, I know it's not specifically being called an MMO... instead a Competitive ORPG. However, having played it and doing the missions and exploring the world, it playes like a MMORPG with fun pvp. I have a lovbe/hate relationship with the Fort Kragir I think was how it was spelled, battleground. Nine times out of ten, the defenders would leave the castle and sit on top of your rez shrine, basically corpse camping you. Several times when I was defending, people on my side would start for the rez shrine. I bitched at them and told them to get back in the castle... but few listened.

I liked the random 4 vs 4 pvp battles. It was all a matter of learning to work together with what you had rather quickly. Some of the best battles there were with groups that shouldn't have won so much. Ranger / Mentalist, Warrior / Monk (me), Necro / Ranger, and Mentalist / Mesmer was an odd group. We slaughtered the other sides so fast that I never had to heal anyway. It was a combination of good teamwork and communication.

No PR guy is going to think it's the right thing to do when they see that their entire player base minus -one- thinks it's the crappiest idea since forever. That taken into consideration, it -is- impossible to change.

Yeah, right. The entire "playerbase minus one" is bull****. I guarentee that a poll before you logged on would be more in favor of removing artificial timesinks from the game. It's only the masochistic uber goobers that want all those timesinks there to keep the unwashed masses from horning in on their lewt and damn near exlcusive rights to the end game.

To see the entire game of EQ requires a far too great of time commitment than most normal people are able to commit towards a game. Upcoming games are realizing this and creating their games around that ideal. EQ could change if they wanted to. Regardless of what the playerbase whines about. It would only be the elitist pricks that want their near exclusive content kept unattainable by the average gamer.

edit:
What you are describing Aly, isn't EQ. It's a completely different game. I understand you do no longer play everquest, so you might want to try out different other games to find one that suits your idea of what is fun and what you want, because it's obvious that what EQ can and will offer isn't for you.

Because I would like to have the EQ storyline in a fun game that's interesting, challenging, and time commitment friendly to play. I like the mythos, pantheon, and storyline of EQ. I am just sick and tired of reading about it on some guilds website.

Arienne
05-17-2004, 05:59 PM
Not meant as a slam against anyone, but does anyone else find it interesting that so many EX-EQers stick around and quite often "fight" with others about how EQ should be? This game has SOME hold on people. It's kind of frightening in a way.

Aly
05-18-2004, 12:26 AM
This game has SOME hold on people.

Yes it does, because like I said, just in the post right above yours, and I'll bold it so you don't miss it this time: I like the storyline in EverQuest. However, I would like to be able to play the game and make reasonable progress in the storyline/character advancement, without being forced to treat the game like a second job.

Noliniel
05-18-2004, 12:43 AM
To see the entire game of EQ requires a far too great of time commitment than most normal people are able to commit towards a game. Upcoming games are realizing this and creating their games around that ideal. EQ could change if they wanted to. Regardless of what the playerbase whines about. It would only be the elitist pricks that want their near exclusive content kept unattainable by the average gamer

Like we have said before, if you don't like the way the game it is. Then go play other games and stop posting how this and that needs to be changed. Not everyone wants the game you way and I am pretty sure lots are fine with the way EQ it is atm. ( mostly before GOD I think heh ) Those changes are impossible to make cause it would make EQ a totally different game and I doubt developers wants that to happen..

Fenlayen
05-18-2004, 01:08 AM
It would only be the elitist pricks that want their near exclusive content kept unattainable by the average gamer.

Wow I'm an elitist prick and I never knew
:flipbg:

Crowly Kittenclubber
05-18-2004, 02:44 AM
We're all elitist pricks I guess, three cheers for being an elitist! /grin

Tinsi
05-18-2004, 03:05 AM
Yeah, right. The entire "playerbase minus one" is bull****. I guarentee that a poll before you logged on would be more in favor of removing artificial timesinks from the game. It's only the masochistic uber goobers that want all those timesinks there to keep the unwashed masses from horning in on their lewt and damn near exlcusive rights to the end game.

Who is talking about timesinks. THIS is what you said:


1. Get rid of "Pulling". Period. No lulls, fades, pacify, whatever... nothing. Link the mob aggro.
2. Get rid of the current Hate list.
3. Make the mobs hit hard, but die fast... and throw lots of them at the group.
4. Make every class melee combat capable in a pinch, except against boss type mobs.
5. Get rid of snare, root, mez, all forms of crowd control. If you can't tank it... you shouldn't be fighting it.
6. Use the graphics engine that GuildWars is using. I've had 40 mobs on the screen chasing me, casting spells, and fighting without any lag. That was fun. No chance of surviving that mess... but it was fun.

And yes, noone wants this except you.

Ladred
05-18-2004, 07:15 AM
Nine times out of ten, the defenders would leave the castle and sit on top of your rez shrine, basically corpse camping you.

That is why you formulate a strategy to combat that type of fight. They are not going to get to your spawn pad before you make a go at the defenders, and take out a few archer and footman. The time that we finally got defeated, we were honestly out flanked. So its more than just, they griefed us, I quit. Sounds to me like you discounted a portion of the game because you couldn't handle the battle.

Aly
05-18-2004, 09:58 AM
Sounds to me like you discounted a portion of the game because you couldn't handle the battle.

Unless, as one of the siege members, you defeat the defenders quickly.... you're going to die and have to wait for the rez shrine to bring you back. In the meantime, five or six of the defenders leave the castle and just sit on top of the rez shrine waiting for you to respawn. Because of the -15% death penalty, people die pretty quickly and it becomes a -30% penalty. Rez shrine camping happened several times and annoyed the hell out of me.

And yes, noone wants this except you. -- Tinsi

:bs:
I doubt that. I guarentee there are plenty of people that would enjoy seeing EverQuest made fun and interesting again. I guarentee there are plenty of people who would be thrilled to see the single-mob-pull-xp-grind-in-the-same-spot gotten rid of. The devs could change how EQ plays and sure, there would be a colossal amount of whining from all the vocal goobers, but most people would look at it as a challenge. A new way to play in a familiar setting with familiar abilities.

The few people that are against changing EQ are cowards. Plain and simple, cowards. Scared little chickens that run around like they've had their head cut off anytime something, even something fairly minor, is changed.

Uthuk
05-18-2004, 10:27 AM
:bs:
I doubt that. I guarentee there are plenty of people that would enjoy seeing EverQuest made fun and interesting again. I guarentee there are plenty of people who would be thrilled to see the single-mob-pull-xp-grind-in-the-same-spot gotten rid of.

There are people that likes EQ and are haveing fun with what they do so just because you lost the fun doesn't mean everyone did.

A for "single-mob-pull-xp-grind-in-the-same-spot" that's easily done already but it's a choice you do. Don't blame the game because you choose a path you don't enjoy.

Lastly, when EQ becomes abit challangeing again the mass threads about the "world is ending" is rampant on the boards is a pretty good measurement of the mentality.
Since I don't want to work out a way to fight it, I'll go cry about how it's unbalanced instead.

Arienne
05-18-2004, 11:29 AM
The few people that are against changing EQ are cowards. Plain and simple, cowards. Scared little chickens that run around like they've had their head cut off anytime something, even something fairly minor, is changed.And that would be SOE. It's tough to have the guts to kill a multi million dollar game and turn it into one that draws a few thousand dollars a year. *gah!* the NERVE of them! Being such cowards at our expense?!? :grin:

To be sure, I don't like the direction my character class has taken. Every class skill reason I saw for starting a druid is now available to all classes these days, and some of the "fun stuff" has been diluted beyond recognition. But I don't WANT SOE to do a complete revamp of EQ. Yes, I would LOVE to see druids being druids again, but that doesn't take a full game revamp if they do it right.

If you look at the progression of MoBs, they basically just ramp up. We get more mana, more resists, they AE and bring us down to where we were before we gained better stats. We do more damage with weapons, they gain hit points or regen faster. The game doesn't require changing every class to meet that... just ramp up as the monsters do.

Anyway, when I leave EQ there will be someone else playing or adding an account to make up SOE losing this customer. The game may be "on it's last legs" but SOE will make money on the game for a long time yet to come.

Galadhriel
05-18-2004, 01:28 PM
I consider myself an average/casual gamer. As far as I'm concerned, I will never see a Tier 3 PoP zone or Time or some of the higher GoD zones and I am fine with that.
I have friends that are in the PoTime and upper GoD zones, but they have worked very hard to get there. I think there should be some reward for the hard core players. Does not getting into some of those zones make me enjoy the game any less? NOPE.
Granted, I am not going to rush out and buy OOW until I see what is applicable to 65 and under, non-elemental characters. But I am still having fun with the content that is available to me now.

Kulothar
05-18-2004, 02:52 PM
I used to have more fun doing Fear and Hate than I do the PoP zones. Even with the 5 hr CR's when I was young and there were no lv 60+'s arround to do break in. Heck, I still have fun doing SolB, Kael and Seb with the sub 60 folks to show them around. Why should I buy more expansions that don't make the game more fun for me?

Firemynd
05-18-2004, 03:22 PM
A for "single-mob-pull-xp-grind-in-the-same-spot" that's easily done already but it's a choice you do. Don't blame the game because you choose a path you don't enjoy.

To be fair, that's really only a viable choice at the lowest levels, during which a character of any class can reasonably stand toe-to-toe with a mob of equal level. From roughly 30-65th, it's increasingly difficult to find a mob that wouldn't overwhelm an average single character in combat. It'd take a fairly melee-heavy group with a healer able to keep them alive to simply rush into a room and tackle five or six mobs at once ... otherwise that isn't a real choice at all.

But that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as a few seem inclined to believe.

Aly, you're right in pointing out how original designers did not anticipate that players would apply some spells and skills to the role of 'puller'... which itself was indeed player-created. However, instead of saying "No! We don't want you to play our game that way!" and proceeding to take those spells/skills away entirely, developers began to tailor content since Kunark to *assume* players will use strategy rather than brute force when dealing with multiple mobs.

That was a smart move, in my opinion. If the original developers hadn't allowed players some flexibility in determining how the game was played, EQ may have stagnated and fallen by the wayside within the first year or two. Instead, it evolved and its content became more dynamic, even if still somewhat predictable. The result was:

a.) individual mobs balanced against a typical group rather than a typical PC,
b.) clusters of mobs positioned to make single-pulling more challenging,
c.) aggro coded to make mobs more reactive to player actions,
d.) lines of spells and skills expanded specifically with pulling in mind.

Like it or not, these developments came about because players themselves pushed more towards using tactics over all-out brawling. But isn't that an appropriate expectation for a multiplayer game?

As for staying in the same place and single pulling mob after mob, i.e. "grinding" .. yeah, I agree that's a choice. Many players choose it, although I believe they do so in lieu of a 'pause' button available in most perpetual-action games, typically FPS. There are definitely other choices available, though, so if YOU as an individual do not like grinding, you have the task of finding others who would rather engage in dungeon crawls, quests, etc.

If you couldn't find enough folks who agreed with how you wanted to play in a group setting, then quitting was the best decision for you to make. However, considering the difficulty in finding people who wanted the same things you did, I'm not sure how you could suddenly expect that they'll agree with your ideas about how the game should change. Apparently, they're satisfied. Well, up 'til GoD anyway. :)

~Firemynd

Aly
05-18-2004, 05:22 PM
Don't blame the game because you choose a path you don't enjoy.

When it was the only path available because of the sheer cowardice of the average EQ player... I am going to blame the game and the devs for giving in the to whiners. I'd rather play a game that keeps changing little by little so you are forced to innovate, forced to change tactics just to survive and then refine those tactics to succeed.

And that would be SOE. It's tough to have the guts to kill a multi million dollar game and turn it into one that draws a few thousand dollars a year. *gah!* the NERVE of them! Being such cowards at our expense?!?

If the devs changed EQ to be fun and challenging again, without the needless and useless timesinks, I bet many people would come back to the game that have quit. Look at Afterlife. They've declared that EQ is dead and they were just banging their heads on the wall in the meantime. Maybe if the devs had grown a pair and changed EQ for the better, people wouldn't be quitting left and right.

Scirocco
05-18-2004, 05:53 PM
When it was the only path available because of the sheer cowardice of the average EQ player... I am going to blame the game and the devs for giving in the to whiners.


And so now you want them to give in to yet another whiner?

How ironic....:)

Noliniel
05-18-2004, 06:08 PM
The few people that are against changing EQ are cowards. Plain and simple, cowards. Scared little chickens that run around like they've had their head cut off anytime something, even something fairly minor, is changed.

Yup, we all are cowards and you are not ! I bet you rant single game that isn't your way..... :p

Tiane
05-18-2004, 06:16 PM
If the devs changed EQ to be fun and challenging again, without the needless and useless timesinks, I bet many people would come back to the game that have quit

I doubt that. Once you kick the EQ habit, you realize that the primary factor that kept you coming back was other people, you social network. The devs cant recreate those once they are destroyed through neglect, balance issues, and buggy unplayable client releases. They take years to make, and they should have done things to reinforce those structures, rather than chop them up into the latest round of 6-person trinity trial groups and 54-person "sorry you other 18 people, we only needed you for PoP" "raids." Was a long series of moronic decisions that got us to where we are now, and there's no real going back... the mechanics which helped to form those immensely strong social networks in the first place are GONE, the game has been made "newbie friendly" and that's not really a good thing for the long term health of the game.

Course they arent really thinking long term anymore.

Two final things, this thread is in the General forum, I'd appreciate it if the tone was kept appropriate. This goes for everyone, especially Aly and Autumn (as usual.) Secondly, Autumn, seriously, pm an Administrator (Sobe or Stormhaven) if you have a problem with the moderation here, or go away and never come back. We will not tolerate the constant and unending public whining coming from you about this issue. Make a decision and stick with it.

Aly
05-18-2004, 09:58 PM
I've got Autumn on ignore. *shrugs* I'm done talking to him. He seems to search for my posts just to start arguments.

Course they arent really thinking long term anymore.

Which is all the more reason to change EQ. If it's going to die when EQ2 and WoW and all the other good games come out, may as well see just how far they can push the evelope. A lot of my friends in real life that play EQ are jumping ship for Horizons, FFXI, SWG, and several of them are just waiting for WoW to release. The biggest complaint they all have is the time required to get anything done in EQ.

Whiners won the day with the GoD adjustments. Seems most people only want a game where they push a button, get a reward for hours of mindless xp grinding. Those people should try ProgressQuest. Its the perfect MMOG for the achiever. You create your character, start the game, and sit back and watch the phat lewts roll in. No button pushing or anything required. Just lots of time. After all, according to the vocal people here, timesinks are what makes a game fun.

Yup, we all are cowards and you are not

Well, pretty much. I'm the one advocating changes. You're one of the ones hiding in the corner of the Holy XP Grind and the Almight Timesink.

Scirocco
05-18-2004, 10:26 PM
I've got Autumn on ignore. *shrugs* I'm done talking to him. He seems to search for my posts just to start arguments.


Nonetheless, her warning goes for you as well. Tone down the attacks.

Arienne
05-18-2004, 11:37 PM
Whiners won the day with the GoD adjustments. Seems most people only want a game where they push a button, get a reward for hours of mindless xp grinding. Those people should try ProgressQuest. Its the perfect MMOG for the achiever. You create your character, start the game, and sit back and watch the phat lewts roll in...Excuse me. I guess I'm at a loss here. I see you are saying that people who had issues with GoD were whining because they were unable to sit back and let the loot fall in their laps...

Exactly when did you experience GoD and when, were you able to determine first hand that the complaints about GoD were unfounded? I was sure you stated that you quit EQ a long ago, but I am curious as to how you can be so certain that none of the complaints OR changes were warranted.

SOE has a great number of people still playing EQ. They're NOT losing money on EQ in any way, shape or form even if they aren't getting your $12.00 every month. I find your attacks on the current players to be ill manered and your insults to be in poor taste. You say that you have "shaken the habit" yet you create more drama over the game you no longer play than most of us do who PLAY.

And bitter. Did I mention that you are very bitter?

I don't mean to dive into personal attacks, but I'm kind of tired of seeing you badmouth the rest of us. And I don't think I am the only one who IS tired of it. Criticize the game... ok. Stop beating on the rest of us here. You are, after all, a guest here... as we all are. :/

Katnips
05-19-2004, 12:15 AM
I still find EQ interesting myself, but I am quickly approaching the point where it is hard for my to enjoy logging on each day. Quests just aren't easilly completed anymore. I can only log on for an hour or two at a time and often, I am not able to aquire a quest piece needed in that timeframe. Soon I believe, I will be looking for a new game to play because the time needed to succeed in EQ is far too much to put into something that should be entertainment.

Kulothar
05-19-2004, 07:29 AM
I have to agree with Tiane, What kept me in EQ was the people. Up until the GoD fiasco I used to bump into people that I had met 5 years ago in my adventuring to see the world. When I first started playing EQ, my goal wasn't to reach lv 50 (max at the time) but instead was to adventure to the other side of the world. I made it to NRo at level 8 and got kick by a sand giant and had to run back from GFay. At lv 10 I left and made it to Misty by lv 12, I stayed there and got my ring and fought till I got 14 and my new spells including SoW which at the time was the greatest spell known to man. After multiple deaths and making lv 15 I made it to Quenos and the boat to Erude where the people were to snooty to give me quests... Then back in Quenos I killed the dwarf and started the adventure going back home... That was the original EQ... All the zones were new and had to be experienced and everyone was still struggling to get their next level. The same people that I camped zones with went on to be in AL and now they are gone. I spend time to chat with what few people I still know whenever I log on...

That is what was lost and all the newbie friendlyness and PLing has erradicated along with the fact that the world is so large that only adventurer classes like druids and wizzies actually see most of the world any more. Even Raids are a situation where you just do your job and then go home. With the XP grind like it is, you don't have groups with the same people more than one night in a row so EQ becomes a long series of one night stands instead of a series of relationships. EQ has gone from being a community to being a singles bar where sometimes you get luck for a night.

Katnips
05-19-2004, 01:40 PM
Aly continues to throw out lines like this and I'm the one that gets suspended? Thanks for proving my point admin/mods.

I have read her posts and have taken no offense to them. It is obvious that her anger is not directed at gamers like me, but instead at the people that want to limit the game for people like me. Exactly how is that fair, considering I pay more per hour on average to play the game? I would be thrilled to explore the Elemental Planes, but I am completely unable to devote the excessive amounts of time needed to go through the whole gearing up and flagging process.

If you are taking offense to her words, perhaps it is because you feel some guilt over the topics she brings up? Perhaps you feel you are one of those "elitist pricks" that want to keep content to yourself. Otherwise why would you be bothered by her words? They are just that. Words. The only power they have is the power you give them.

I am finally reaching the point where I cannot progress in EQ anymore with the time I have available for entertainment and playing another class does not have the appeal it once held for me. Unless EQ changes soon to make it more accessible to the gamers with little time to spare, I will be jumping ship for a game more friendly to the casual gamer.

Scirocco
05-19-2004, 01:53 PM
Kat, that's a remarkably self-centered approach to the issue of personal attacks. Essentially, you have said, "It's alright for Aly to attack other people as long as she's not attacking me." Or perhaps, "It's alright for Aly to attack other people as long as I agree with her."

In any event, personal attacks are not acceptable, regardless of whether you agree with the attacker, the attackee, or neither (or both).

Aly
05-19-2004, 05:16 PM
So just who am I attacking Scirocco? I've not named any names in this thread. If people are thinking those attacks are directed at them, maybe it is because there is some truth to what I say and they're the ones taking it personally. What else can you call someone that wants to keep something just for themselves because they think they're the best and deserve it because they jumped through Verant/SoE's hoops and did the stupid timesinks? Elitist prick. Selfish griefer maybe.

I dunno about you, but I don't want to be thought of as selfish nor elitist. Open the game to everyone... get rid of the artificial timesinks... let the actual challenge of the encounter be the deciding factor. Then people that are on the top will rightlfully have a reason to be proud of their accomplishments. Especially if they were first.

Spending a massive amount of time grinding through xp, for levels and aa, and stupid flags or key quests is not a reason to be proud. It just proves you're masochistic for boring and repetitive drudgery.

Tinsi
05-19-2004, 05:27 PM
If you can't 'tolerate' the truth that's your problem Tinsi, not mine.

Huh? What did I say or do now?

Tinsi
05-19-2004, 05:41 PM
So just who am I attacking Scirocco? I've not named any names in this thread. If people are thinking those attacks are directed at them, maybe it is because there is some truth to what I say and they're the ones taking it personally. What else can you call someone that wants to keep something just for themselves because they think they're the best and deserve it because they jumped through Verant/SoE's hoops and did the stupid timesinks? Elitist prick. Selfish griefer maybe.

The way you are saying things is about as respectful to those who's opinion differs from yours as this is:

HERE'S WHAT YOU WANT IF YOU AGREE WITH THE LIST OF CHANGES SUGGESTED EARLIER IN THIS THREAD (Look Ma, no names, I didn't insult anyone omg!!):
http://pasarel.org/images/04911-0080-1.jpg

(Someone had to platter this debate at some point to bring the pointlessness to an end.)

Noliniel
05-19-2004, 06:02 PM
Lol calling people "elite pricks" "cowards" isn't attacking? Sorry but unless you speak a different language than my, it is called attacking. Please for god's sake don't turn this into an Uber vs casual argument just cause you don't like the game or don't have the time spent into it. Or whatever reason you come up with.

I don't mean to dive into personal attacks, but I'm kind of tired of seeing you badmouth the rest of us. And I don't think I am the only one who IS tired of it. Criticize the game... ok. Stop beating on the rest of us here. You are, after all, a guest here... as we all are. :/

Agree with this !

Aly
05-19-2004, 07:34 PM
When have I ever frelling advocated getting rid of the challenge of the game? Timesinks are not challenging. They're damned boring. That's all. No challenge to them. None whatsoever. So take that stupid silver platter and shove it.

I want to bring the challenge back to the game. I am against the nerfing of GoD content. How is that wanting things on a silver platter? Search my posts on the forums. There's a nice nifty feature for just that. Never, ever have I asked for anything to just be handed to me. I have no problems defeating challenging content to attain levels, gear, flags, what have you... but I will not waste my time on pointless timesinks like the Vex Thal key quest and the idiotic flags for PoP.

The challenge of the encounter should be the limiting factor. Not the time it takes to get there. Again, how is that a silver platter request?

Tinsi
05-19-2004, 08:07 PM
1. I never said a word about challenge. I spoke of supporting the list you posted.
2. The silver platter was a feeble attempt at making you see how you come across to others, by speaking to you the way you speak to others. You took me seriously, mission failed.
3. Funny how you took it so personally, I didn't mention any names nyaaah nyaaah :P

MadroneDorf
05-19-2004, 11:33 PM
You dont have to name people to have personal attacks...

People who believe/play <Insert Idea/gamestyle> this about Everquest are <Expletive Deleted> and have the IQ of a 4 year old, they are COMPLETLE morons, and I think they have NO CLUE how everquest works, and well they are just dumb****'s

I didn't name anyone, but if I had actually put a target group in, it would be quite obvious I'm attacking someone..

**edit** i do realize the contradiction between "personal" and attacking a group or type of player, but i think thats mostly semantics for what hte forum rules are for /shrug

Kulothar
05-20-2004, 09:29 AM
Two comments...

1) I just noticed Aly's new tag.. LOL...

2) That is a nice looking platter, Where do I get one?

Scirocco
05-20-2004, 05:49 PM
Aly's tag is bigger than yours....:P

Aly
05-20-2004, 11:17 PM
Yes it's nice and big. Just like my visionary ideas. Anyway, I've been playing CoH most of today and yesterday. Aside form having to re-install WinXP to fix a problem, it's been a blast. Literally. The sheer amount of character creation options is amazing. The lag free enviroments that span entire city blocks... it's just gorgeous. I can't wait til I hit 14 and can pick up Flight. If this was EQ... I'd have to do some six hour stupid quest with a rare spawn mob that rarely drops the item I needed to get the Flight power.

Games are heading in the direction I predicted. Less downtime. More fun. Yet still challenging. There is nothing that will make me believe ridiculous downtime is good for a game. I've seen too much proof in other games that defies that stupid notion. If SoE spent more time playing the game than reading whiny cry baby posts on the forums, maybe things would turn for the better finally.

Uthuk
05-24-2004, 06:19 AM
Aly:

All the proof you seen is what makes those games loose the fun relatively fast. Most new games are fast paced and allows everyone to feel alot of progression (which is nice) but it has a downside and that is that an even larger percentage of the players reach the "end game" (before new content is out) and are faced with the "what do I do now" question.

EQ, while slower paced still holds alot of players interest and I think that one of the big factors is that most players still has things to look forward to.

A MMORPG needs to have a progression pace that's slow enough so that the developers can provide new content before too many customers reach the end. EQ sure has flaws but it is still the only game sofar that gives players that play quite abit something "meaningful" to do in the game.

Imo, far too many "need" to win a game to be able to enjoy it. I would be overjoyed if I could find a game where I couldn't possibly reach the end before new content was out but maybe I'm pretty alone in that. This would mean that I could always look forward to somethingelse and I could always have a goal besides farming current end game.

WEDruidVZ
05-24-2004, 08:54 AM
I go away for a week and the baby's are still fighting in the play pen...AMAZING.<BR>
[PERSONAL ATTACK] Hey (insert name here), Your a F*****G idiot.[/PERSONAL ATTACK]<BR>
Now you just have to figure out who this actually applys to...

Aly
05-24-2004, 09:54 AM
/ignores WED

Anyway...

All the proof you seen is what makes those games loose the fun relatively fast. Most new games are fast paced and allows everyone to feel alot of progression (which is nice) but it has a downside and that is that an even larger percentage of the players reach the "end game" (before new content is out) and are faced with the "what do I do now" question.

How do you explain the success of Diablo or Diablo II then? There's really no downtime in those games and it's just fast paced fun with a little backstory to move things along. Yet people are still playing those games. New content has only come out for Diablo II once and that was several years ago.

A MMORPG needs to have a progression pace that's slow enough so that the developers can provide new content before too many customers reach the end.

That will never happen with the way some people just completely ignore the journey to reach the end. It's a really stupid way to play. The end is just that, that end. Nothing to do after that. Why would you rush through all the stuff you missed just to be at the end when it's pointless? I'd like to see a game that doesn't have an end game. You're forced to experience all the content at all levels to completely get the full experience of the game.. but have the weekly, semi-weekly events like Horizons does and include things for all levels and make it so even the level 10 provides something to the big event and the top level people have to depend on the lower level people to aid them.

Make the so called "end game", cooperative events between the high level players instead of making it competitive.

This would mean that I could always look forward to somethingelse and I could always have a goal besides farming current end game.

I'd rather see the dynamic content that is added to the game on a regular basis that moves the storyline forward at a reasonable pace for the average player. That means there would always be something new just around the corner. Hell, I'd pay $20 a month for a game that delivered new dynamic events once a week with a big event once a month or every other month. Well... as long as it was a heroic fantasy or dark and gritty medieval setting (no or very low magic).

Torinak
05-24-2004, 10:44 AM
How do you explain the success of Diablo or Diablo II then?

Because they don't have any subscription fee and people can play them on a relatively old PC?

Darleeg
05-24-2004, 01:00 PM
When I first started to read this thread I thought I was going to read about suggestions in the way they can improve or what was the result of the changes. Instead I see personal attacks and claims that a BETA is better then an established game. Yep, it's a game. If it is NOT FUN for you anymore then carry your subscription fee and time elsewhere and actually stay out of these boards. Don't try to cheapen other's rewards because you weren't able to do it and never will be able to. I don't see how someone that makes claims about a game being better is always on an board about a game he despies. It's funny how people claim there is no lag in other games...Take a look around there's hardly anyone there with you and you can count the number of servers on one hand. Even EQ's Bazaar has no lag after a server reset.

Elder Darleeg
Morell-Thule

harvey the dog
05-24-2004, 02:06 PM
Anyway, I've been playing CoH most of today and yesterday

what server you on Aly? just so i know which one to avoid at login.

Aly
05-25-2004, 08:09 PM
I'll make characters on all the servers. 8p

I don't see how someone that makes claims about a game being better is always on an board about a game he despies.

If you'd care to take the time to look around, you'd notice a lot of people that have retired from EQ still post to EQ boards and many EQ boards are no longer just EQ boards. They've grown into little communities in their own right with their hands in all the MMOG cookie jars. Take a look at the Safehouse especially.

I don't despise EverQuest. I despise the way the people have let EQ slide into a mediocrity and boring xp grinds on the leveling treadmill with insane timesinks all over the place. People could have done something to change it, but they just accepted it as a fact of MMOG's. Recent and upcoming games are dispelling that myth. Blowing it away with all the cobwebs and dust that EQ has let gather on its players.

With GuildWars, CoH, and WoW... I'll probably be able to have fun playing all three games at the same time. Well.. having subscriptions to the two of them and still playing GW as well. I have never kept SWG and EQ subs running at the same time. There just wasn't enough time to devote to both games and still have fun or make progress.

Variety and competition are great for the gamers. It makes the market their market.. instead of SOE's market. When EQ was really the only game around... I can understand them not wanting to mess with the formula, but considering what's around the corner... they better do something damn quick or else they may as well just pull the plug when EQ2 and WoW goes live.

Tiane
05-25-2004, 11:45 PM
Aly, it wasnt just "people" that did that. It wasnt the players that made the decisions that changed the game. You're blaming (if anyone is to blame) the wrong group. The players may have put up with some changes, they may have accepted the boring xp grind, but there was no real alternative except to stop playing and lose contact with your friends.

That's the real crime, that we're all at the mercy of our feelings for our friends and put up with what amounts to the abuse of our gaming sensibilities in order to stay with them lol...

Put the blame where it belongs. It's not with all the players. The devs who cave to a vocal specific set of players without having any Vision of their own are the only ones who are accountable.

Noken
05-26-2004, 12:39 AM
As much as there's a lot of trash here I do like the way certain people write. Instead of disagreeing with anyone (which is hard) I'll just agree with this.

Aly: Open the game to everyone... get rid of the artificial timesinks... let the actual challenge of the encounter be the deciding factor. Then people that are on the top will rightlfully have a reason to be proud of their accomplishments. Especially if they were first.

It's what Verant was good at, and Sony seems to be clueless towards.

Grendul3164
05-26-2004, 12:59 PM
Bottom line is EQ is EQ. If you want to play another style game, then do so. To try and make EQ into something else kills the game entirely.

The whole post should be a "Hey, wouldn't it be great if someone made a game with the same fantasy/lore as Everquest, but with the play style of CoH?!! OMGZ!!!111"

Youve turned your negative bitterness into a positive discussion. Go figure.

I enjoy the timesinks in EQ (most of them) - the quests, raids, camps, they all have their reasons for being there. And I for one wouldnt change it. Course there are things I WOULD change - but thats for another thread.

-Grendul
Storm Warden of Zeb
Iratus Lepus

Katnips
05-27-2004, 11:11 AM
You can still have quests and raids in a game without timesinks. As Aly said and Noken agreed, make the difficulty of the encounters the deciding factor. I would look up to the end game players if it was skill that seperated them from me instead of the amount of time they have to play.

In Halo, playing on Legendary is a real challenge. Especially the Truth and Reconcilliation mission. When I faced the two Hunters who drop out of the gravity lift, I was low on ammo, no grenades, burnt out shield, and one bar of health left and when I managed to pull off killing the last hunter with a last desperate melee smash with my fist, I was ecstatic. Dinging a new level in EQ, finally getting a rare mob to spawn after hours of camping, they do not give me the same excitement that the action of Halo did. Leveling just does not give the same feeling of accomplishment.

I do not understand why so many people against combining the thrill and excitement of action like in Halo with the lore of a fantasy world like Norrath. Yeah I died a lot while trying to beat Halo on Legendary, but I learned from each death and did better the next time. Since I dinged 34 in EQ, my tactics have not changed one bit and lag or some other player training me are the only things I died to. Challenge and accessibility is very limited in this game. Probably the biggest reason I am quitting. City of Heroes might also have something to do with that.

Aly
05-27-2004, 10:39 PM
*smirks* I'm seeing a lot of posts about EQ's gameplay these days and not just on this forum. Guess the action in other games like CoH is becoming addictive and fun, making people realize how boring combat in EQ is.

I do not understand why so many people against combining the thrill and excitement of action like in Halo with the lore of a fantasy world like Norrath.

Because they wouldn't be able to be lazy and sit on their butt xp grinding away or farming some item while mostly afk. They wouldn't be able to two- or three- box effectively. I can't imagine trying to two-box in CoH. Got enough trouble keeping up with my 4 attack powers and the occasional reconstruction I have to use.

Uthuk
05-28-2004, 05:45 AM
*smirks* I'm seeing a lot of posts about EQ's gameplay these days and not just on this forum. Guess the action in other games like CoH is becoming addictive and fun, making people realize how boring combat in EQ is.

CoH is fun as a relax game, you don't have to think just go out and kill stuff. That doesn't make it a game with any longevity at all though.
Will I play EQ another year?
Most likely.
Will I play CoH another year?
Most likely not.



Because they wouldn't be able to be lazy and sit on their butt xp grinding away or farming some item while mostly afk. They wouldn't be able to two- or three- box effectively. I can't imagine trying to two-box in CoH. Got enough trouble keeping up with my 4 attack powers and the occasional reconstruction I have to use.

You are not really makeing any progress in your arguements. It is the same old, someone isn't comeing over and slapping me because I play the game in a way i don't enjoy.
EQ has flaws and all that but you can do other things, choose other paths than the one you obviously choose for yourself.

Kulothar
05-28-2004, 09:49 AM
It is easy to 2 box that defender in CoH.. just follow and spam the group heal button. Rez the dead and put follow on again. I am sure you could put a macro on a gamepad to spam the heal for you even...

CoH is very simplistic. You decide the mission... Spawned zone or kill 10 of a specific mob anywhere.. The zones scale up to the group so if you do it solo is a few mobs your level or in a group is a bunch of mobs the average level. EQ does try to do that in LDoN but not elsewhere. The gameplay in CoH is simplistic also.. Target the mob, press the icon and hope the mob dies first... No tradeskills, no big selections of armor and spells. Every other level you pick a skill to train from a big selection. Each "Class" has base skills unique to that class but you can pick from the general skills which gives a large flexibility of play style. On the alternating levels you get enhancement spots like EQ Augment Slots. Enhancements and Inspirations (like buffs) are purchasable and tradeable so there are no camps for specific ones. Overall a very simple game with none of the in Depth play that EQ has that many used to enjoy. Most of the people that went to CoH did so because EQ for many people lost sight of having fun and went for grind..

Kulothar
05-28-2004, 10:01 AM
humm after rereading though I should mention a couple of things.

CoH is fun and simple but not a very exciting game so true, if it stayed the same I cannot see playing it for years like I did EQ. Will I keep playing EQ? Probably till WoW comes out. Will I keep playing CoH? Maybe but that depends on how it grows.

The big difference I see is that the CoH people listen to what the players want. There will be new High level expansion zones but strangely enought.. They are FREE.. Next year they are incorporating voluntary PvP by adding Villains. I am not sure how that will work but they will figure out a way. As I understand it there will be good cities and bad cities where you are safe and zones in between where you can hunt or PvP. Raids on the major bases of the opposing side are part of the plans..

So, will I continue to play CoH? Not as it is today since it would get boring like Shadowbane but I will continue to play as long as it continues to evolve and is fun.

Aly
05-28-2004, 11:55 AM
CoH is fun as a relax game, you don't have to think just go out and kill stuff. That doesn't make it a game with any longevity at all though.

New stuff to do. New zones to see. New villains to bif-bam-boom to the city jail. And a lot of other nice updgrades on existing features like being able to change your costume in game after character creation. There'll soon be a quest you can do in Terra Volta to re-spec your powers.

I'd say CoH has plenty of longevity. Back to the thinking thing though. It does require thinking. As a scrapper, I have to worry if the mobs will kill me before I can mow through them. I have to think about whether or not I can tank the initial attacks from a group of mobs since the groups I'm in rarely have a tanker. I died three maybe four times last night in Perez Park but it was a blast. Met some old friends from Druzzil Ro on Virtue and got invited into the Supergroup.

Target the mob, press the icon and hope the mob dies first... No tradeskills, no big selections of armor and spells.

You have to worry about what kind of enhancements you want to slot your powers with. How many slots to put on your enhancements. What kind of inspirations to carry around. Sure, you can just play without using any enhancements at all, but you're going to be very ineffective as you progress in level.

Here's something very intriguing from the update:

"Enhanced indoor missions" really got our curiosity going, so we grilled Shannon Posniewski, one of the game's Sr. Programmers, about what we should be expecting. The new missions will include some real plot twists. It'll be possible for characters to get captured, forcing them to break out of an area. It'll also be possible, when playing as a group, for some members of your group to get captured so that everyone else can mount a rescue. The maps themselves will have more challenges to them: players may need to break down a door, for instance.

Sounds like a lot of fun to me.