View Full Forums : Vegence of Tunare


Chubbexul Demonsbane
05-13-2004, 12:36 PM
Does VOT stack with Imolation of RO and Swarming death and our epic dot?

Rolaque
05-13-2004, 01:33 PM
VoT (curse counters) stacks with Swarming Death, and with Tempest Wrath. So it should also stack with epic dot and Immolation of Ro.

Rolaque

Aluaeia
05-13-2004, 02:11 PM
The only dots we have that don't stack are the immolation line, because of the ac/atk/fr debuff components on the dot.

Petar
05-14-2004, 05:42 AM
Yes, I cast VoT, then epic, then swarming death, then Immolation of Ro, then Winged Death when I root dot. It helps to cast mounted as it can drain alot of mana :)

WEDruidVZ
05-14-2004, 10:05 AM
I cast IoR, DD, DoD and Immolation and they all seem to stack...is there any way to tell if they are stacking? I'm getting ready to use WD when I ding 53 and want to use WD, IoR, DD and DoD. I remember reeading somewhere about the order they are cast though...IoR was last because of the ac/atk/fr debuffs...can anyone be more specific on this??<BR><BR>
EDIT: IoR should be BoR

Grygonos Thunderwulf
05-14-2004, 10:48 AM
yeah it tells you how much dmg your dots do.. see if you see x number of msgs when you cast x number of dots... btw.. I don' think dd and dod stack... but winged death and swarming death stack with any one lower swarm line dot.(usually dod on the vambs or bracer) and whats IoR? I don't think our fire dots stack because of debuff component.

WEDruidVZ
05-14-2004, 11:00 AM
BoR, sorry (Breath of Ro). I turned my dmg message off, to many messages coming through when in groups, but I'll turn it back on and see, although I seem to get better dmg when I cast four as compared to say 3 or 2, so I assumed they were stacking?<BR>
I get WD in less then half a level (42% until 53) and plan on using WD, BoR and my clclicky DoD...

Macnbaish
05-14-2004, 12:02 PM
The entire line of magic dots will stack. The only things that don't stack is the line that has debuffs built into it. VoT has no debuffs and therefore stacks with everything.

Chubbexul Demonsbane
05-14-2004, 01:03 PM
Thanks everyone will have to finish my last couple of ldons to buy this spell then. Cant wait to rot root the guards in HOH with VOT stacked and see how much quicker I kill them. WOOT AA's here I COME!!!

Claeopha
05-14-2004, 04:43 PM
I hope you like Vengeance of Tunare; I love that spell. It's by far our best DoT, and competes with even Winter's Storm for mana efficiency.

Just for an FYI - I'd been DoTing Valor Guards in HoH before I got it, using epic, clicky Drones of Doom, Immolation of Ro, Swarming Death, and Winged Death; and ran 6 cycles per kill.

Now I use epic/Drones, Immolation of Ro, Swarming Death, and VoT; and it's 4 cycles per kill (and change - though I also have Critical Affliction I, which helps some).

Aluaeia
05-14-2004, 10:55 PM
All numbers assuming zero focus/aa since they would affect both spells equivalently. Also using the base duration listed in lucy rather than the +1 tick that actually happens because I did the math before I remembered the extra tick. Everything is still on the same baseline.

Including Vengeance of Nature, Immolation of Ro and Winged Death just for comparison's sake:

VoN is 3.162 dmg/mana, 35.833_ dps.

Winged Death is 3.677 dmg/mana, 23.833_ dps.

Immolation of Ro is 4.375 dmg/mana, 23.333_ dps.

Swarming death is 4.114 dmg/mana , 48 dps.

VoT is 4.225 dmg/mana ratio, 50 dps.

Sylvan Embers is 4.375 dmg/mana, 25.666_ dps.

VoT barely pulls ahead in the numbers game, however: SD is MR-100 check, very rarely resisted; VoT is fire-30 (even IoR is fire-50), and is resisted a noticeable amount of the time, as well as being basically unusable in certain zones (pofire, solro mostly).

Add in the 24 sec cooldown on VoT line (on a spell that has a base duration of 30 sec), and VoT is really not that great. The line is the highest DPS of our dots, but unlike SD and IoR lines, you can only keep it up continuously on one mob, as opposed to multiples with SD/IoR, and with the non-negligible resist rate (unless you want to burn another spell slot on hand of ro - which I personally don't have room for.), it's really not that efficient.

Use IoR/SE line for efficiency (unless in fire/solro), VoT for (relatively) fast dps, and SD for an all purpose MAKESTUFFDIE.

Uuldiin
05-15-2004, 04:59 AM
While i notice VoT is highly resistable (albiet very resistable in plane of time phase 1-3 4 5 and Quarm wont even let u land it =p)..

Other wise i use it constantly, it's always memed, Good bit of dmg for the short ammount of time it takes to run through. if you got the points i would reccommend buying the scroll.

Callahad
05-17-2004, 09:59 AM
Also using the base duration listed in lucy rather than the +1 tick that actually happens because I did the math before I remembered the extra tick. Everything is still on the same baseline.

That extra tick makes a HUGE difference in your calculations. Let me re-do them for you.

VoN is 3.794 dmg/mana, 35.833 - 41.61 dps.

Winged Death is 4.086 dmg/mana, 23.833 - 26 dps.

Immolation of Ro is 4.812 dmg/mana, 23.333- 25.246 dps.

Swarming death is 4.8 dmg/mana , 40- 45.4 dps.

VoT is 5.07 dmg/mana ratio, 50-58.06 dps.

Sylvan Embers is 4.812 dmg/mana, 25.667 - 27.77 dps.

Note : sylvan embers reduces FR by 40. IoR by 35

Conclusion : SE-IoR + VoT is the way to go. They should be your spells of choice. Add SD, WD and VoN if/when you can. However, the difference is not overwhelming, so it really depends on what you kill.

Other considerations : focus effects should change *your* ideal answer. Most notable are focus effects that add to DoT duration. I am under the impression that NO extra ticks are added to DoTs unless the extra time covers a full tick time or more. HoH adds 20% to DoT duration. That's enough to add 1 tick to every DoT we have, and 2 ticks to SE-IoR. Without presenting the calculations, one can notice that the balance tips further towards SE-IoR, VoT and VoN. In particular, SE-IoR become more efficient DPM-wise than SD.

Callahad

Claeopha
05-17-2004, 06:06 PM
Conclusion : SE-IoR + VoT is the way to go. They should be your spells of choice. Add SD, WD and VoN if/when you can. However, the difference is not overwhelming, so it really depends on what you kill.

Callahad

Yup, this is exactly what I do. Since I don't have SE, I lead with IoR for the FR debuff, and chase with SD and VoT. I don't get many resists on VoT after IoR; and it's certainly better resistwise (for me) than Winter's Storm, which was my previous high-damage spell. It also has the advantage of moving with my target (*wink*).

In groups, unless I'm pulling (with IoR), though, it does get resisted a bit much. Still no more than WS, though, and so if the group isn't killing in less than 40 seconds I use it all the time.

Palarran
05-17-2004, 08:39 PM
Don't forget that both Sylvan Embers and Immolation of Ro have (I think) a higher chance of fizzling. That extra mana lost to fizzles needs to be considered as well.

Edit: The actual numbers I had, 25% fizzle rate and resulting 12.5% mana cost, are unconfirmed and likely wrong given the replies that followed.

Callahad
05-18-2004, 04:12 PM
I have never ever seen them fizzle that much. Plus if you really wanna take into account fizzling, take it into account for every spell.

Callahad

Peregrinus
05-18-2004, 04:45 PM
Immolation of Ro definitely doesn't have that high a probability of fizzling. I use it constantly and it hardly ever fizzles. It's much more reliable than Breath of Ro, which is the one that fizzles so much you have to think of it as actually costing more mana to cast to make up for the fizzles. Immolation of Ro is pretty much as reliable as Winged Death, except for the risk of a fire resist.

Grygonos Thunderwulf
05-18-2004, 04:46 PM
I'd love to see the math that proves adding 12.5% to the spell cost...

Grendul3164
05-18-2004, 06:14 PM
I think the 12.5% comes from the fact if you fizzle 25% of the time you are using 12.5% of the mana the full casts would have been (given fizzling is 1/2 of the mana you would have used).

So you are essentially taking 1/2 of the mana used for the 1/4 of the casts (the fizzle rate mentioned)

Not saying its accurate or fair if you dont compare other spells fizzle rate but thats how I understood the original 12.5% post. I see his point though.

-Grendul
Storm Warden of Zeb
Iratus Lepus

Palarran
05-19-2004, 12:36 AM
The number 25 came from lucy. My interpretation of it as a fizzle percentage added at the very end is certainly open to debate, but brief testing with Breath of Ro (25) compared with Winged Death (0) a couple years ago seemed to support it, and fizzle rates on some low level spells seemed consistent with it as well. 25% seemed rather high to me too, until I realized that I had gotten in the habit of pressing the button several times each time I wanted to cast it, making only strings of fizzles stand out.

In any case, until someone does some real testing, the 12.5% figure is misleading and likely wrong...but the increased fizzle rates are still something to consider when comparing mana efficiency.

(Yes, that's where the 12.5% came from...with a 25% fizzle rate, and each fizzle costing half the mana of a successful cast, that's an extra 12.5% average cost per successful cast.)

Sorry everyone, I had posted in a hurry initially without thinking about what I was typing. :P

Palarran
05-19-2004, 01:21 AM
Hmm, after some more brief testing, I'm convinced something changed with fizzle rates in the last couple years. 50 casts of Breath of Ro resulted in only 1 fizzle (and 50 casts of Immolation of Ro resulted in only 3 fizzles). Granted I'm 5 levels higher than when I tested Breath of Ro versus Winged Death, but I think there's something more to it--maybe SCM does work partly as advertised, reducing the chances of fizzles? My powerlevelled beastlord with low casting skills still sees results consistent with my old tests. Spirit of Herikol (level 30, alteration, no fizzle adjustment) fizzles somewhere around 50-70% of the time, while Spirit of Inferno (level 30, alteration, fizzle adjustment of 25) fizzles around 90-95% of the time.

It could also be a more subtle change...maybe as simple as changing the order that calculations are done to arrive at the final fizzle rate for a given character and spell.

Anyway, I guess the point is, you can ignore pretty much everything I said in this thread, except that fizzle rates may need to be considered.

Eridalafar
05-25-2004, 10:58 AM
Don't forget that your wisdom also affect the spell's fizzle (higher the wisdom, lower are the fizzle's rate). Do the test when you are naked (wisdom of 125 or so) vs fully equiped (up to 355).

Wisdom, level, specialisation (magic school) skill, scm3 aaxp, the (magic school) skill and the spell innate fizzle's rate are factors that affect the final fizzle rate of a spell.

Eridalafar

Mannwin Woobie
05-25-2004, 11:33 AM
Don't forget that your wisdom also affect the spell's fizzle (higher the wisdom, lower are the fizzle's rate).

Really? I never heard that before.

Grygonos Thunderwulf
05-25-2004, 01:52 PM
I've heard that.. and find it kinda true as well.

Claeopha
05-27-2004, 12:19 PM
Ask any ranger how much Immolate fizzles. =) Compare their wisdom to yours...

Though anecdotal (and probably also affected by relative casting level), wisdom does seem to have an effect on fizzle rate, especially at certain thresholds. 100 comes to mind as the first one, but rangers would probably know better than me.

Eridalafar
05-27-2004, 01:37 PM
At level 55, I was specialised (evocation), wisdom of 255 and I was fizzling less often breath of Ro that winged death. But when I was at aonly 115 wisdom (after a death), it was fizzle land when I was trying to cast breath of Ro.

Eridalafar