View Full Forums : participants in the priests covenant


Len the Druid
07-02-2004, 05:12 PM
I dont have the time to wade through all that garbage..so has anyone stated the obvious yet?

That you cannot give clerics anything (besides some utility) without simply making them an even more desireable group component? That you cannot make druids/shamans capable of single healing the most current content without making clerics obsolete?

No?

I'm sure you guys will figure out that for current content we are back up healers and for past content we can/should be single healers. If that paradigm is not met then you fix something.

K thnks!
:bonk:

Kulothar
07-06-2004, 09:52 AM
Basicly from what I have seen, Clerics want to be essential for groups but yet also be able to solo anywhere they want. They want uber heals and utility.

Druids and Shaman want to be useful but are told they have to give something up to get that since they might be able to compete for a group spot.

moonwing
07-06-2004, 10:21 AM
The problem I have is that a couple shaman have taken over the board and whether or not there are problems with druids or clerics they couldnt care. They will continue to hold the priest covenant hostage until their demands are met and our wills are broken. One in particular posts broad based concepts and judging by the numbers of unagreeable posts behind them, its a biased idea with no backing. They plant the seeds of discontent so work on balance cannot be done. Priest Terrorism I claim!

Sobe Silvertree
07-08-2004, 07:40 AM
Which Shaman - name names :)

moonwing
07-08-2004, 09:22 AM
Ya see, If i told you, then you would tell your friends.. it would be utter chaos. .....M.... There will be no dealing in good faith on the PC until the shaman put their canni/slow guns away. They want the universe but we are only willing to give them the sun, moon, and stars. :twak: go figure!

Chubbexul Demonsbane
07-08-2004, 10:09 AM
Damn those shamans, Damn them I say!!! :moon:

Arienne
07-08-2004, 10:12 AM
Moonwing... are you taking perscription or over the counter? :D

moonwing
07-08-2004, 10:41 AM
Neither, I'm high on life. Only speaking the truth. I'm only sorry you are blind to the sabotage. I've got 10 chars of planes level, I speak with the experience of 10 years of online gaming experience EQ and mud. Game development, gm, zone development and game implementation. I have actually coded class balancing. i have had to balance game world to chars and levels, class to class, melee to caster, group to "raid sized", and pvp. As someone who HAS actually walked the walk and listening to the chatter and broadbased ideas that are coming out from shaman in particular, there is an agenda that is being shoved down our throat. Playing a shaman,druid and cleric myself i do not agree with their opinions until they walk in the shoes of other classes to understand the degree of their CURRENT respective power.

The biggest whines are about things shaman want. These are things that they only THINK the rest of the world wants them to be.. all perception.

The goal of the balance is to have three fun to play, well rounded classes, not 3 one dimensional cookie-cutter ones. Druids are there for the most part, shaman are almost all the way there with a couple tweeks, its clerics that really need help to round out their dimension and usefulness, (do not read the word utility).

Kineada
07-08-2004, 12:58 PM
Someone trace Moon's IP and see if comes from San Diego. Me thinks we have a ninja in our midst.

Panamah
07-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Why would you think that?

moonwing
07-08-2004, 03:12 PM
Sweetie im from detroit :P

Sobe Silvertree
07-08-2004, 03:50 PM
guys.. tho I do not like Len to much - there are some points to both Moonwings and Len's posting.. the problem is most Druids have backed off from that area. Those that go in there are attacked and I am dealing with those issues now.

Sobe's has always been a Fury Druid ;) - yes and hot headed too.

Vowelumos
07-08-2004, 04:43 PM
I tend to go in there every few days and read through the hot topics, maybe post my thoughts on a thing or two and then stay away for a couple of days.

I have a tendency to let myself be dragged into completely unproductive back and forth bickering so I am trying to avoid it :)

So to be honest with you, except for one post from the gnome shaman,(I agree this is weird, but it is how I remember him) he was actually pretty nice, I really have no idea if anyone has said anything to me at all.

Firemynd
07-08-2004, 05:22 PM
I've decided to back out of the Priest Covenant discussions entirely. The environment in that forum is very anti-druid, very hostile. :\

It seems a few clerics and a few shaman are determined to dictate what druids should have, and what they think we need to "give up" or "share" in order to have our class issues addressed.. odd, since I don't see them suggesting their own classes giving up much of anything to get improvements.

Then ya have a bunch of clerics acting as though druids want them to "share" all of their heals ... when the reality is, we've only asked for a few of our existing heals to be tweaked a little, and for our existing SotW timer to be reduced; beyond that, maybe a few utility fixes. From what I've seen, a few of them want to force more healing on druids, simply to justify them asking for a helluva lot more of just about everything for clerics. Don't believe me? Go read that cleric "list" stickied at the top of the PC forum. It's a hoot.

The last straw for me came today, when a few of those clerics tried to pin a 'personal attack' label on me, and they couldn't even give one legitimate example of where I've done anything of the sort. Over the past few years I've participated in numerous debates and discussions here on TDG, some of them quite heated, and while a few folks and I may have disagreed very strongly, none of them can say they ever came away from one of my posts feeling as though they had been assaulted in a personal way.

Ahh well. Probably better for me to stop wasting time on the Priest Covenant board anyway, since most of the stuff they're proposing is ridiculously beyond the scope of what SOE would ever realistically consider. Frankly, I wouldn't want druid requests tied to theirs... imo, it's a surefire way of getting shot down by devs.

~Firemynd

DorianBrytestar
07-08-2004, 05:23 PM
Basicly from what I have seen, Clerics want to be essential for groups but yet also be able to solo anywhere they want. They want uber heals and utility.

Not true, soloing anywhere we want is a bit of a reach by even the most extreme cleric, but druids and shaman are asking to be able to main heal in all content.
:cheers:

DorianBrytestar
07-08-2004, 05:27 PM
The environment in that forum is very anti-druid, very hostile

Spoken like a true druid.
Obviously you have a very narrow view of what insulting people is, and obviously you must have a pretty narrow view of how a discussion should operate. Clearly you are not paying much attention and just trying to stir up trouble or you would easily have seen how your remarks are nothing more than an attempt to whip everyone up into a frenzy.

(Ps, that is not how I normally state things, but it was how you did)

Firemynd
07-08-2004, 05:59 PM
Oh goodie, this is the Unkempt board. :)

Dorian, put up or shut up. Nothing I posted over there could be construed as a personal attack according to forum rules. Any "examples" you could possibly show to support your criticism of me would be extremely weak, especially considering the remarks made by individuals to whom I was replying and/or the manner in which they've posted. How I responded to you in PC is actually a lot milder than if you had heard it from many other grovers, but most of us stopped wasting time on that board a few days after it was created. Only wish I had realized it sooner.

~Firemynd

DorianBrytestar
07-08-2004, 06:10 PM
It was supposed to be a highly moderated board and stuff like what you posted was what I thought was out of line.

Personally, I could care less. I'll tell you to go take a running jump at a flying donut and that you are full of crap, but I thought that forum was going to be held up to a vert strict standard.

Saying you took it easy is full of crap. Once you go over a line, how far you go over that line really does not mean much, you want to really go at it with no moderation? go to my guild messageboard and we will go at it with no gloves on. I treat other's homes better than I do my own. I am not going to go somewhere and act childish just because I can.

Panamah
07-08-2004, 06:32 PM
So, overall would you say this discussion amongst priest classes is accomplishing anything?

Blueeyedangel
07-08-2004, 06:33 PM
/drama

Nimchip
07-08-2004, 06:35 PM
I don't enter that board, the whole balancing idea has a sibling rivalry thing to the extreme. It's like brother #1 gets something and brother #2 wants something like it or better, then brother #2 gets it and brother #3 wants something like the other 2. Then brother #3 gets something and brother #1 thinks his status is in danger of being the brother with the stuff. That's EXACTLY what it's like, and yes, there is an anti-druid aura going around from what i've read. Of course, it all comes down to perspective.

As a druid i feel some things could be better for us, and I think in those boards we have little voice. All i see is gimme gimme gimme i mean seriously, even from our own class. Learn to be reasonable, there are some reasonable changes that druids can have. There are some reasonable changes that clerics can have, as well as shamans.

This is to druids first and foremost: If you see that X class could really use some improvement of some kind and they get it, don't complain about us not getting an improvement just cause they got one. That would be lowering to the other classes levels, or at least the ones that seem to have the boards controlled for now.

Firemynd
07-08-2004, 06:47 PM
It was supposed to be a highly moderated board and stuff like what you posted was what I thought was out of line.

Yes, I'm aware that you THOUGHT it was to be a highly moderated board; you said so in your first post on the poll thread. But it's been a week since you discovered otherwise. Why single me out, knowing my posts were entirely within the guidelines for the currrent level of moderation?

Even if the "Medium-Low" level is raised to Medium as appears the majority favors:
Slight personal jabs will be allowed (ex: "You're obviously not listening").

You seem to perceive such a comment as a blatant personal attack.... and I'm sorry you feel that way; to most people, it's a fairly commonplace expression and perfectly acceptable in all except the most formal types of debate. And pardon me for saying so, but I cannot imagine many of the people currently in Priest Covenant being held to such a formal structure.

~Firemynd

moonwing
07-08-2004, 07:27 PM
very true, myself I have leveled a cleric to 35 by soloing on FV. PAINFUL. I even killed half undead. I did not have anything but self buffs and any buff that was given to me by passers by but none solicited. I think there should be options open to clerics to solo. Even rogues with poisons can do it to some degree. All classes should have some capacity to solo. This makes well rounded players and hence better and stronger player base.

Panamah
07-08-2004, 07:45 PM
very true, myself I have leveled a cleric to 35 by soloing on FV. PAINFUL. I even killed half undead. I did not have anything but self buffs and any buff that was given to me by passers by but none solicited. I think there should be options open to clerics to solo. Even rogues with poisons can do it to some degree. All classes should have some capacity to solo. This makes well rounded players and hence better and stronger player base.

I gotta call you on this.

I've played cleric, rogue, druid and shaman to level 65. The worst soloist by far is the rogue. Poisons are far to difficult, rare, expensive and highly unreliable to contribute much to soloing. If you're half nuts and want to try to solo a blue mob, you need to spend many, many hours collecting poison ingredients and making the poisons. After that, there's a pretty good chance you'll die trying to solo or run for the zone.

While cleric soloing was at best extremely unproductive at level 65 it wasn't as futile as trying to solo with a rogue.

DorianBrytestar
07-08-2004, 08:21 PM
Yes, I'm aware that you THOUGHT it was to be a highly moderated board; you said so in your first post on the poll thread. But it's been a week since you discovered otherwise. Why single me out, knowing my posts were entirely within the guidelines for the currrent level of moderation?

Even if the "Medium-Low" level is raised to Medium as appears the majority favors:
Slight personal jabs will be allowed (ex: "You're obviously not listening").

You seem to perceive such a comment as a blatant personal attack.... and I'm sorry you feel that way; to most people, it's a fairly commonplace expression and perfectly acceptable in all except the most formal types of debate. And pardon me for saying so, but I cannot imagine many of the people currently in Priest Covenant being held to such a formal structure.

~Firemynd


Actually, you are making the assumption that I think your statements are ok, and therefore I am picking on you. I do not think your statements are ok. And it was not until today that I actually saw Sobe say that the "moderation" was changed to "medium", so I felt you were posting out of line so I called you on it. It really is just that simple. I know you would like to feel that this is some big consiracy against you or something but honestly, it's not.

There are quite a few people that are posting exactly like you had, and I was working on making a point that doing so is not helping anything, and then I read your post that was literally loaded with the stuff that I was fighting against.

Reading more of your posts, I think you honestly do post like that all the time and it is just the way you communicate, albeit it will piss off some folks.


But either way...


So, overall would you say this discussion amongst priest classes is accomplishing anything?

As long as you give people free reign to talk about anything they want you are NEVER going to come to a consensus about anything. The people that talk the loudest, and the most will drown everyone else out, and the peopel that make good points, but do not repeat it 50 times on every thread will get drowned out.

People are there for their own agenda. If that agenda is to buff their class, then that is what they want. Some folks want to buff their class up while keeping the others exactly where they are, because they feel their class is somehow less than the other one, so they want to be brought up to "even" the problem is that many of those folks feel that "even" means they get stuff and NOONE else can get anything. So they actively slam down ideas for buffs to other classes.

Aidon
07-08-2004, 09:42 PM
Not true, soloing anywhere we want is a bit of a reach by even the most extreme cleric, but druids and shaman are asking to be able to main heal in all content.
:cheers:

Druids should be able to main heal in all single group content. Just not as effectively as a cleric. More downtime, slower kill ratio, etc.

moonwing
07-08-2004, 11:00 PM
Oh how i hate Ohio State!

Arienne
07-08-2004, 11:20 PM
I hope you don't take this the wrong way Dorian, because whether I agree or not I have always enjoyed your posts in other areas, but you have clearly demonstrated in this thread exactly why most druids aren't discussing in the Priests' Covenant. Druids can't talk about druids without an inordinant amount of noise factor from the other priest classes. The REAL kicker was when one thread was started FOR druids by a non-druid and carried on by several non-druid moderators and other assorted shamen/clerics for quite some time before a druid even posted.

I'm with Firemynd... I'm so tired of not even being able to discuss what druids think druids need in EQ without some other priest jumping in and saying "WAIT! HOLD IT! FIRST you have to say what you are willing to give up!". If they don't do that, they want to debate with a druid before any other druid has a chance to comment on an idea posted. To be perfectly honest, I would love a druid thread FOR druids posted only BY druids with any other class comments being deleted (ie HEAVILY moderated).

Is there any way to tag a poster with their class in that forum? Even worse than the flack from the other priest classes is when new names chime in and you don't even know what class they have experience with because so much is BS :/

So, overall would you say this discussion amongst priest classes is accomplishing anything?Blueeyedangel answered that accurately. It is accomplishing drama.

DorianBrytestar
07-08-2004, 11:21 PM
Aidon, I totally agree with you.

Heck, I would probably even go farther in reality and give druids and shaman more healing than they ask for, simply because for me, druids and shaman heal me to save my rump. But also, I do not group for xp anymore, I am purely a raid player. (Whether I like it or not)

Unfortunately, a very vocal minority want druids and or shaman to be able to heal in ALL content.

Cutting edge, broken, meant-to-be-played-by-characters-that-are-lvl-70, upper tier content as well.

DorianBrytestar
07-08-2004, 11:28 PM
Arienne, I understand what you are saying. I have been on a one person crusade to get people to calm down, not piss each other off, and to try and discuss things rationally for almost two weeks to the point that I think the mods were probably getting ready to say something to me. I've posted here quite a few times if anyone remembers, and I am definately not one of the druid hating clerics that a lot of you guys get flack from.

While I may even support what Firemynd says, I cannot get around the way that the message was said. You get more flies with honey than vinegar is true and the best way to accomplish NOTHING on a messageboard is to post where you intentionally ruffle feathers.

If you have the option of posting something or posting something with a little jab, the little jab gets the nod and then it has the be returned, etc etc etc and pretty soon, you will not agree with someone simply because they made you mad, regardless of if they had a good idea or not.

And btw, my post back to Firemynd was done tounge in cheek because those words are almost identical to the ones that were used by them that I asked to get either toned down or deleted or at least reprimanded. Please do not take them as an example of the way I present myself to the general public. I was using it as an example of how to NOT get a discussion to move along.

Firemynd
07-09-2004, 12:54 AM
While I may even support what Firemynd says, I cannot get around the way that the message was said. You get more flies with honey than vinegar is true and the best way to accomplish NOTHING on a messageboard is to post where you intentionally ruffle feathers.

Intentionally? No, but quite frankly some of them need more than ruffling.

Druids have gotten very little but vinegar since the Priest Covenant forum opened, especially from clerics. Don't you think it's a bit strange that a message board sitting right smack dab in the middle of The Druid's Grove has so few remaining druids actually participating? And some of the ones who do are obviously weary... just look at the frustration level evident in their posts .. it's as if they're trying to swim up a waterfall.

That saddens and sickens me. The very class community opening its doors and providing a gathering place for this 'priest summit' cannot even discuss our own issues without constant interference by a few people of other classes who presume to tell us exactly what we need, and what we need to "give up".

I don't hold your class against you Dorian, but comments like "spoken like a true druid" is not exactly the best way to seek a common ground and "calm" people down -- especially not on TDG's rant board. And you can try to rationalize all you want, fact is you DID single me out, amidst hundreds of "jabs" from other people all over the PC forum, most of which were made by non-druids. You've made the same comments about "heavy" moderation at other times and in other threads, but THIS time you targeted one person, a druid, and I felt it was appropriate to ask why.

It's also appropriate to point out that during a 'crusade' to tell everyone else not to jab at each other, is probably not the best time to do it yourself. But you won't be jabbing at me in the Priest Covenant board anymore, because I'm tired of feeling defensive every time I read the discussions over there, tired of being told to "shut up" by clerics like Hurk, and tired of arguing with people who don't listen.

I've posted here quite a few times if anyone remembers, and I am definately not one of the druid hating clerics that a lot of you guys get flack from.

Want to show impartiality Dorian? Crusade against some of the people from your class who are alienating others and interrupting every discussion with their own agendas. You know who they are. We all do.

~Firemynd

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 01:26 AM
I would just like to point out that the only reason I used that phrase was because that it the exact phrase you used.

Spoken like a true cleric.

Look again at my post at the top of the last page (depending on how you view the page, it is the one I said "spoken like a true druid") Note the last line of that post, also note that that is exactly the tone you posted in the PC forum. Doesn't do a lot to foster community togetherness and a good discussion does it?

If you truly did hate all the sniping and insulting, I would expect you to make a big effort to not be a part of it. I know I did.

Once again, you seem to be missing the big picture. Just because I said something about your post does not mean that I am ok with everyone else, it was merely the single most post (or couple of posts) that the snide remarks were so blatant.

You had about 5 little paragraphs or responses, and in almost every one of them led off as combative. In my hunt for stuff to give examples of I did not like, your post was literally chock full of stuff to choose from. THAT is why I picked you out.

You have several cars speeding on the freeway and one is doing 40mph faster than the rest, that car is gonna stand out.

Sobe Silvertree
07-09-2004, 01:36 AM
okay new rules are posted and we have some pretty tags for those that believe they can break the rules - this will go for everyone! ;)

http://thedruidsgrove.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8693

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 01:40 AM
Saw that Sobe, sadly, I don't feel that lessening things is the right move, but I guess you have to go with the majority on what they want.


Here's hoping that things change and you guys never have to moderate anything at all.

:cheers:

I don't think that "medium" is enough to keep things civil though =(

Firemynd
07-09-2004, 01:45 AM
BTW. Thought it might be interesting to note how many posts in the "Druid Improvements" thread were actually made by druids. Currently --

Posts by druids: 24
.. by non-druids: 41 (clerics 23 shaman 18)

It should be mentioned that 1 of the cleric posts and 4 of the druid posts were by class moderators who weren't actually commenting on the topic. So it'd be more accurate to say the number of posts were: druids(20) clerics(22) shms(18).

Seeing double the number of posts from non-druids in a discussion directly related to druid improvements/issues .... well, draw your own conclusions.

~Firemynd

Firemynd
07-09-2004, 02:02 AM
You have several cars speeding on the freeway and one is doing 40mph faster than the rest, that car is gonna stand out.

You have a badge? And keep in mind, I did not break the forum rules, so trying to pull me to the side of the road wasn't called for anyway, not even for a citizen's arrest scenario.

What did you really expect my response would be when you decided to conduct a public hanging in town square, and tried to justify putting my neck in the noose by falsely inferring that I attacked anyone personally?

It's especially telling of your motivations that 1) you singled out a druid who broke no rule, 2) you neglected to quote any comments made by people from other classes who actually have violated rules.

If you want to bash druids, you're definitely in the right place to find potential targets... but please don't profess to be impartial when your actions show otherwise.

~Firemynd

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 02:25 AM
*taps microphone* Is this thing on?



Ok, I am going to type this slowly.

That you were a druid or not was not the point. Believe it or not, I do not care.

I popped into a thrad and read line after line of you posting and I replied, it really is that simple.

From now on, I think I will just go over my own posts here and copy and paste in my responses that I have already made. Please, go ahead, ask the same questions more times. This way we can have a lot of posts on this thread and you will feel that it is important.

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 02:41 AM
Nothing I posted over there could be construed as a personal attack according to forum rules.


- deleted personal attack -

~Firemynd

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Murtak : 06-30-2004 at 02:24 AM. Reason: no personal attacks please


Dorian, you don't need to look very far to see criticism around here. So I have to ask: Any particular reason you singled me out for your little "where are the mods" bit?
---------------------------------------------------------------

I did it because yours was the most blatant case of repeated snide remarks that I THOUGHT would and should be edited or something said to you about it. But since I guess it's ok, I will just let it go and chalk it up to more misconception on what I perceived this messageboard to be.


I answered this question once


Dorian, put up or shut up. Nothing I posted over there could be construed as a personal attack according to forum rules. Any "examples" you could possibly show to support your criticism of me would be extremely weak, especially considering the remarks made by individuals to whom I was replying and/or the manner in which they've posted
---------------------------------------------------------
It was supposed to be a highly moderated board and stuff like what you posted was what I thought was out of line.


Then I answerd it again...



Why single me out, knowing my posts were entirely within the guidelines for the currrent level of moderation?
----------------------------------------------------

Actually, you are making the assumption that I think your statements are ok, and therefore I am picking on you. I do not think your statements are ok. And it was not until today that I actually saw Sobe say that the "moderation" was changed to "medium", so I felt you were posting out of line so I called you on it. It really is just that simple. I know you would like to feel that this is some big consiracy against you or something but honestly, it's not.

There are quite a few people that are posting exactly like you had, and I was working on making a point that doing so is not helping anything, and then I read your post that was literally loaded with the stuff that I was fighting against.



Then I answered you yet again...

Sobe Silvertree
07-09-2004, 02:45 AM
At the same point Dorian - your missing Firemynd's point..

The whole "forum" .. Firemynd feels that she has to defend herself - so of course the lead off would possibly sound negative in your eyes.. she was already defensive.

The problem = this and let me spell it out for you.

Most Druids don't feel they can post in that forum w/o double the numbers attacking their ideas.

Most Druids feel this way because the moderation was left up to the other classes who basically mod'd there own people but each time they had a chance.. they didn't see anything wrong with the post. IE: It didn't say "your a ****ing moron" but it sure read like it.. so we did a test post by a mod that was basically out of line.. the result was what we thought would happen. That post was removed.

So.. for now on the Rules of the Forum has now changed to create a comfortable balance between all posters tho some of the more vocal people will cry wolf.. as if .. "see we knew this would happen.. the druids are taking over and we won't have a say.. NOT FAIR.." or a rendition of that several times over.

Have to understand I left it up to the Moderation team.. that in itself was a mistake.. but I felt it necessary to back off because IMO people would cry wolf if the mods did not feel like they had control over the forum from the other boards.

They still do.. don't get me wrong just a bit more intense then they are used to.

Scrutiny will be the objective of the Admin because it was never my objective to segregate my own class in that forum.

IE: They would like to participate but each time someone brings up "this is a highly moderated forum" but does not subject there own people (class) to that type of bash. IE: As I put it in the thread.. people seem to use that as an attack.. IE: dubious reasons when infact they do not hold .. for all intensive purposes.. their own class or people to that same standard.

So.. before you tip your hat at the getting the last word in.. please don't.. because its as much your job to moderate the forums by reporting the post and letting us decide and trusting us that that decision was proper or reporting the post directly to me in PMs (since only mods get those reported post).

Understand - there is no problems with slight jabs.. any attack on the staff will not be tolerated no matter how nice its put. Questioning the staff is always a private matter because it has no place in a thread.. treating us as "Community Members" is fine if we are answering a post .. but if we are moderating that post.. do not question it .. only in PMs - I do not tolerate it .. ask anyone here.

In other words.. you may see me say "Cut the Chit" .. or you may see me personally attack someone for being out of line but thats only because they "were not getting the point".

In light these are my boards.. in which I own and operate.. even though I dedicate them to our community and those members that help pay for these boards.. but I try to stay within the rule set because I believe its necessary.. I will however blow a gasket if someone questions a decision that was made either by a mod of my team.. the priest team or any of the Admin.. I have no mercy on those people.

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 02:54 AM
Sobe, while i have the utmost respect for you guys, you have to realize. You are asking me to think it is ok for anyone (That it is Firemynd is irrelevant, but convienient, because had it been someone less vocal this may not have been brought out in the open such as it is)

You are actually asking me to forgive someone for posting under duress for the exact problems that I have been complaining about for weeks. That the posts were combative and agressive is not my responsibility, it is the moderators that are supposed to be setting the level of conversation. That you guys are ok with it is not what I thought you were going to do, and now that you have made it public that it is ok for people to post like that I can guarantee you that it is not going to get better.

Every single one of the people that are posting and causing the attitude that you are concerned with are now ok to keep doing it because you have told them it is ok.

Every thread that has been locked is ok by the new rules and will remain the same way IMO. I'm not sure what level you would call the moderation of the board before, but I view it as you are now saying that everything is ok and that the way that some people were posting that was offensive to many is now ok.

If you guys are trying to make things more civil, lessening the rules is not the way to do it. And if people think that the moderation is too tough, fine. Maybe those people are not exactly the ones that you want to be part of discussions in the first place.

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 03:02 AM
Sorry if that came off weird, I am actually wanting you guys to be meaner =)

You won't hear me complaining about too much moddin =)

Sobe Silvertree
07-09-2004, 03:08 AM
Okay READ the New Rules.. Clean Slate.. "New Rules are in Place" from here on out.

If thats not Plain enough.. nothing will be and they will find there ass off the Grove while people like yourself will be posting.. don't get me wrong.. respect or no respect the Grove will get this job done with or without the other classes. I am sick and tired of the "My class wants this and what are you going to give up so you can have more healing BS" - I am sick and tired of this chit ruining the game as we know it.

I am sick and tired of the BS that people can't see other peoples points..

As for giving forgiveness.... No one is asking you to do jack or chit.. just understand where she is coming from.. you don't have to forgive her.. just understand her point.

She made one comment that you are refering to that was edited by a non-druid staff member that said that your attempts at this is pathetic.. "that IMO" is not a personal attack its a statement.. IE: try to do better ... IE: swiss cheese .. to many holes in the arguement.. or Pathetic attempt at yada yada..

As for putting her "quotes" in the thread that are in Unkempt Druids.. well this is the Rant section and she can say those types of things and a lot more.. the only thing she can't do is call you a moron or ask you what you do with your mace while your alone..

So please understand.. NO one is asking you to forgive.. Just understand.. thats the first step to working together.

And yes.. I am being a bit harsh but your smarter then what your putting into your words.. but I see your as stubborn as a mule too... so have a carrot .. think about what I said.

And please don't take any of this personally.. you have some thick skin brother.. I know it.. you just need either a) have a cigerette.. b) a beer.. or c) well u know what I want to say ;)

So I will go chill .. and come back and hope that you have responded in a more open manner then what your showing atm.

Vikken
07-09-2004, 04:47 AM
Wow, you guys really let your hair down on this forum. It's like a bunch if wel prosed rabid dogs debating each other to death with peotry, and snide remarks. The entertainment value is pricless! :P

moonwing
07-09-2004, 06:52 AM
Thank you Sobe. Moderation is a good thing here. There really is no point to the discussion if we cant be a credible source of information and that does mean keeping it clean. Brenlo and the crew really do not want to sift thru garbage to get to meat and potatoes. This goes a long way to making it a Brenlo friendly site.

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 11:45 AM
Thanks Sobe, I honestly was wondering if I would come back and be banned =)


I am sick and tired of the "My class wants this and what are you going to give up so you can have more healing BS" - I am sick and tired of this chit ruining the game as we know it.


I agree with you totally, and I back ya 100%

Len the Druid
07-09-2004, 12:15 PM
:moon:

The simplest rule is still not being touched and further moderation will do nothing.

Sobe..Have a vision. Make that vision the "rule" that all debate surrounds. example: Druids and Shammies are secondary healers in the most current content. Secondary being defined as the ability to single heal a party for short durations/ineffectively. Assuming content scales appropriately keeping this paradigm will most likely cause this paradigm to fall apart for non-current content (ie druids and shammies can single heal). You, or someone needs to simply set that vision or the debate will be endless due to having no framework.

Obviously if the vision is all priests can single heal current content that changes the "rules" etc.

The reason the the discussions with 3 priests is going in circles is there's no stake in the ground around timing thus you have no guardrails to keep the focus of the conversation.

What you're trying to accomplish is great. It just wont happen without someone stepping up.

another idea if the dictorial role doesn't suit you...

Make a poll.

1) All priests should have comparable healing with separation in utility for all content
2) Clerics should have a defined edge in healing for most current content, recognizing that past content will be "unbalanced"

have everyone use democracy to agree to the vision AND THEN try to figure out the nuances to make it work.

Arienne
07-09-2004, 12:26 PM
At the end of the day, Len, it really doesn't matter anyway. In order for anything here to change the game as it is there has to be buy in from SOE and there never has been despite the fact that Chenier took a "We can't address it at this time" to be a green light to gather a priests' concensus.

The effect that I see the Covenant having is that shamen and clerics are developing a bond on our own forums and druids have become the "redheaded stepchild" in our own home.

DorianBrytestar
07-09-2004, 01:17 PM
It's totally odd too, because I would have expected the druid numbers to have been massive since it was on your own boards.

When this board first opened, I would have sworn it was going to be almost totally druid ran and would have a huge number of more druids than anyone else.

I have joked about it and man do I hope I am wrong, but I have a sinking feeling that even if we do work things out that SoE is just going to say "No."

I would love some type of indication from SoE that if we (by some form of miracle) all come to an agreement on something that they will even consider it. Call me jaded, but I have been bitten by that "working as intended" snake too many times to not expect it.


Sadly, I think I'll never play a healer again in another game, I have a shaman in WoW testing right now and I am already getting labeled as simply a "healer". Just about time to reroll a warlock I think.

Ceneena
07-09-2004, 02:33 PM
I would have to also argue that the biggest source of contention on the PC is the lack of a focus. Some people are proposing total balance and others are talking tweaks and the arguing over different points ensues. If you read all three priests stickied topics none of them are asking for massive change to the classes or the roles. All the threads below them are where the dissention occurs because of the lack of focus.

Are we trying to balance the three priests equally?

Are we trying to make it so all three priests can MH in cutting edge content?

Are we merely asking for tweaks that will maintain the status quo?

Clerics, Druids and Shaman are all stumbling around this question. Rightly so no one from within each class would agree on the answers. Some clerics want all out balance while some druids just want better patch heals.

Enter three classes coming in with different perspectives to these questions and it's a firepot. Clerics have Rytan "the spell guy" asking on their boards what they think of all priests healing equally idea. They are coming to PC loaded with that worry and given past history that they will be over looked as they we're in the guild summit. Clerics are coming in on the defensive and maybe falsely assuming the worst. The recent slaps by SOE to cleric community may offer some perspective on their defensiveness. You see clerics were told by Brenlo we don't bitch loud enough and thus are so easily overlooked / forgotten. It was almost like a call to arms.

SOE is running scared away from the word balance as it creates the kind of atmosphere present in the PC. They will issue a definition of each class and leave it among the classes to balance themselves not against each other. It will at least give the classes a framework to consider when proposing upgrades. The PC lacks any framework and thus increased arguements. Saying that, I'd hate to be the one to have to define the framework.

I'd also note there are very few posters from all three communities. Many of the normally more outspoken clerics won't touch that forum with a ten foot poll. Any poster not willing to wave sabers is certainly staying very far away from them. They may lurk but I doubt would ever post. We're hearing the same loud voices repeat themselves over and over really and a few caught in the middle trying to listen and understand. Their posts are ignored as the one right after class bashes and thus gets the attention.

It's a very nice idea but without focus it will not solve any problems. The stickied threads on top mirror what the individual communities have already asked for so why the need to discuss unless we're really trying to carve out new ground and think of balance on a whole new level. One that is lasting regardless of content changes.

Firemynd
07-09-2004, 03:02 PM
I have joked about it and man do I hope I am wrong, but I have a sinking feeling that even if we do work things out that SoE is just going to say "No."

It helps to think about this from SOE's perspective. Their job, first and foremost, is to maintain the game's viability in its market (genre), and they know even a minor change to any class can have ramifications far more reaching than what players see on the surface.

I'm not saying an inter-community consensus would be totally ignored, but the folks at SOE *do* realize that posters here only represent a tiny segment of the playerbase, and a relatively small segment of those who play priests in EQ. On top of that, they realize it's very possible that a majority of priests are already quite happy with their class ... so expect SOE to tread lightly when it comes to changing things.

This is why I've been trying to encourage people to come down a few notches when making lists of class requests... a few tweaks here, a few minor improvements there. I can predict with some degree of certainty that the current cleric/shaman lists as they appear right now, go too far and pose too many risks of negatively impacting overall game balance. Unfortunately, many of the folks over in PC don't want to hear this. Hence, the reason I am encouraging druids to do exactly what they did a few years ago, and come up with their own list of reasonable requests, separate and apart from Priest Covenant.

It's a shame, really, because I had hoped that with all three classes participating, a majority of priests would eventually discard the most extreme ideas and naturally gravitate towards a middle ground.. sort of like a 'bell curve' effect. Unfortunatley, a small minority of extremists have driven away many of those 'middle ground' people, including some druids whom I've seen contribute greatly to discussions on TDG for years. No doubt there are also many clerics and shaman with more moderate views who don't feel comfortable with the current direction on PC.

~Firemynd

Fyyr Lu'Storm
07-09-2004, 06:07 PM
"When this board first opened, I would have sworn it was going to be almost totally druid ran and would have a huge number of more druids than anyone else."

I didn't think that.

I did think that the presence from old Druid warhorses would have been greater though.

Aidon
07-09-2004, 09:49 PM
It's totally odd too, because I would have expected the druid numbers to have been massive since it was on your own boards.

When this board first opened, I would have sworn it was going to be almost totally druid ran and would have a huge number of more druids than anyone else.

I have joked about it and man do I hope I am wrong, but I have a sinking feeling that even if we do work things out that SoE is just going to say "No."

I would love some type of indication from SoE that if we (by some form of miracle) all come to an agreement on something that they will even consider it. Call me jaded, but I have been bitten by that "working as intended" snake too many times to not expect it.


Sadly, I think I'll never play a healer again in another game, I have a shaman in WoW testing right now and I am already getting labeled as simply a "healer". Just about time to reroll a warlock I think.

What gets me is...people in WoW even expect my pally to be a healer /boggle.

Fenmarel the Banisher
07-10-2004, 02:25 AM
Personally I'm not too interested in a debate over healing balance. It' doesn't really effect much the way I play EQ (if I were still playing). I see most of the woes of the Priest classes as content driven. If EQ still had content that accomidated all play styles then the solo ability and utility that the Druid class is balanced around would come into play. What I see in that forum is mostly driven by a the raidcentric EQ that has come to be.

Belkram
07-10-2004, 04:15 PM
Im not going to make any presumptions on this forum thats for sure. Yes I am indeed a cleric. Ill state that up front. Ive also posted on the Grove before on the old board, so Im not a total stranger here.

Sony has already said they find current healing trends to be unhealthy for the game. Clerics being the only main healers for front edge groups is bad for the playerbase. A heavy burden of clerics for raids is a bad thing for the playerbase. Thats all that counts. They are going to make changes. All that other forum is for is to discuss the changes that the players feel will make the game more enjoyable and maintain some sort of balance between the classes.

In the end, its going to be about allowing Druids and Shamans to have more roles within a group and be able to heal a group without a cleric there. On the other side of the coin, I think that clerics need to offer more to a group in terms of DPS and reliability to do things on their own, like get to the group alive :evilgrin: Also having a few soloing options for times I have small time blocks available to me would do a lot to make me happier about my lot.

Being pretty blunt, but Clerics have been told for a very long time that our superior defensive spells and skills have been the reason we dont get much else. If the superior defense will be rendered largely mute, we need something else if things are to remain fair and fun.

Druids and Shamans need the heals, clerics need a little bit of everything else. I hope all three of us get what we need to make the game better for all of us.

:cheers:

Arienne
07-10-2004, 06:00 PM
I've come to the same conclusion a lot of other druids have... leave the Priest's Covenant alone. I'm gonna let the 2 mods talk to each other and stay out of their path... which includes any and every post on that forum.

Eileah
07-12-2004, 02:49 PM
Although I tend to agree with the rest of your post, I had to giggle at this:


Being pretty blunt, but Clerics have been told for a very long time that our superior defensive spells and skills have been the reason we dont get much else. If the superior defense will be rendered largely mute, we need something else if things are to remain fair and fun.

For the longest time we Druids have been told that we have ports so we shouldn't complain... Where in PoK is there a bunch of places to replace whatever Clerics may have?

We were stripped of a number of useful things over time, and received nothing in exchange for the losses.

As for this:

Originally Posted by DorianBrytestar
It's totally odd too, because I would have expected the druid numbers to have been massive since it was on your own boards.

I don't post here much, if at all, but I have noticed over the years that the way Druids of the Grove "discuss" things is much different and much more reasonable than what is happening in the PC, and I (at least) expected other classes to be as reasonable and well mannered as the Druids have been here before the PC.

Druids here tend to look for solutions, not bashing and mindless bickering. The PC isn't a place for proper discussion since too many clerics and shaman want to push a personal agenda and not work towards a mutually harmonious solution.

That is why I think many Druids just don't post there, and it is why I don't even read it anymore.... There is nothing to be learned from it, and no one that wants to learn.

DorianBrytestar
07-12-2004, 03:12 PM
Druids here tend to look for solutions, not bashing and mindless bickering. The PC isn't a place for proper discussion since too many clerics and shaman want to push a personal agenda and not work towards a mutually harmonious solution


I think that druids should still step up and make sure that they are actively represented instead of allowing shaman and clerics to post their best "guess" as to how to balance the healers.

How can ignoring the discussion promote a mutually harmonious solution though =(

I would love for anyone at all to step in and start posting their views. If someone flames you or slams you in any way, report their post to the moderators and let them handle it.

I, for one, would love to hear all sides represented.

DorianBrytestar
07-12-2004, 03:14 PM
I've come to the same conclusion a lot of other druids have... leave the Priest's Covenant alone. I'm gonna let the 2 mods talk to each other and stay out of their path... which includes any and every post on that forum.

So true...

Aly
07-12-2004, 05:28 PM
Bah. Make me the only moderator for the PC forum. I don't have any druid/cleric/shaman issues. Hell, I don't even play the game anymore and could care less about the healing balance/utility balance or whatever. :cool:

DorianBrytestar
07-12-2004, 08:15 PM
Retired lvl 29 Magic Blaster of Guardian!~

Woop!


Active 23 Troll Shaman, Beta!

Follun
07-13-2004, 12:45 AM
I think that druids should still step up and make sure that they are actively represented instead of allowing shaman and clerics to post their best "guess" as to how to balance the healers.

How can ignoring the discussion promote a mutually harmonious solution though =(

I would love for anyone at all to step in and start posting their views. If someone flames you or slams you in any way, report their post to the moderators and let them handle it.

I, for one, would love to hear all sides represented.

I don't think they will ever come to a mutual agreement between classes in PC. The bickering and bashing is awful, and the only thing it's good for is a few chuckles.

Firemynd
07-13-2004, 02:23 AM
Why in the world would I want to waste days going back and forth trying to convince a disruptively outspoken minority that one small issue is worthy of SOE's attention?

Several druids DID try to "step up" and post their viewpoints about our class issues, and it felt like we were arguing a federal court case for even the most minor requests. I'd rather just bypass all the unnecessary conflict in the Priest Covenant that will surely continue as long as clerics think everything revolves around them.

Post any druid issue with a suggestion for fixing it, and you inevitably get some variation of the following:

- "Okay but where does that leave clerics?"
- "Does this mean clerics will be getting X and Y from druids?"
- "But you can snare, sow, and evac..."

Those responses became a tired refrain years ago, and we didn't need a special forum to hear it again.... we could've gotten the same by posting on the cleric boards.

~Firemynd

Len the Druid
07-13-2004, 11:36 AM
again,
unles we can agree on what our roles are and take the conversation up a notch it is indeed pointless.

Clerics should be the best healer in the most current content. Druids and shammies should not be able to single heal most current content. That's been our role since the beginning of time (save maybe the first 30 levels)..When PoP came out WE COULD NOT single heal that content. Eventually we all upgraded our gear, got some FT and got our new spells, not to mention tanks got new gear people finally figured out what SK and paladins can do etc etc etc. And that being said not every 65 druid can still handle all content in pop(fire,earth, water). Yes I can. Yes you can. Not all of us can.

But we all got use to being a replacement for clerics for PoP and LDoN and now GoD came out and we al ran there and got clowned.

Anyways..Clerics? #@$% them. They've had a lock down on groups since level 39 and hearing them complain should fall on deaf ears. If shammies have been screwed by slow mitigation and BL's simply being a better slow choice then yeah..tweak them. And for druids, just give us some content other than healing content.

nieros
07-13-2004, 11:38 AM
Agreed, but sorry to say, I just dont even bother with that section any more.

Firemynd has hit the nail square on the head with the above post. I was getting to the point of ready to smack the next person who said 'but you dont need X you can evac'

My god man, I heard that exact same excuse 4 years ago.

Evac in a tipt/vxed trial and watch as your group smacks you about the head.

Its this huge circle of :
X posts, Y moans at X, Z then moans at Y, and X moans back at emm both.

What is really bugging me, and I mean no disrespect to clerics here, but this latest thread they had in there about clerics should be able to have hammers doing same damage as pallys or cleric melee.... You what ?
*headbutts wall*

If I was watching a cleric getting up and starting laying smack down on a mob when I doing an ikkinz trial Id give him a good smack about the head. 'Your here to heal, not melee my son. Thats why we got a rogue standing there. Now heal god damn it *whack*'

That was the final straw in ever bothering with that section again for me.

Anyhow, I can never see there being any kind of major agreement as those posting there mostly seem to be in a 'what can we get thats going to be better for us' frame of mind rather than, 'how can we make life easier for us all' idea. This in turn basically means any time a good idea is sugested its shot down in flames by the vocal minority that likes to poo poo everything that isnt in thier vision.

/me finishs his rant and steps of his soap box.

- nieros

DorianBrytestar
07-13-2004, 12:06 PM
Clerics are not wanting to melee while they are supposed to be healing, they want to be able to contribute melee when they are not healing.

As to being attacked when you post. I have already addressed that and you should report attacks to the moderators imo.

The reason that I want more clear heads posting is that what I hear from a lot of folks on this board is what I agree with. That Druids should be able to heal the vast majority of content as main healer. But, for the hardest, cutting edge content, that you guys are ok with it needing a cleric.

That is NOT the consensus that is being presented by the vocal minority, they are advocating that they should be able to heal in ALL CONTENT. Especially cutting edge hardest of the hard. This is what has some of the clerics fighting tooth and nail to stop. I'm just about to give up though, so I do understand what you are feeling.

I just feel like it is a forum for about 5-7 people to say whatever they want, however they want, and that no matter what else is said, that is what the final outcome is going to be. They will continue to put forth their ideas until people quit arguing back, and then it will be listed as the "accepted and agreed on" stance of the community.

I hate it, I really did have high hopes when it started and I give the folk that set it up big cudos for even trying.

DorianBrytestar
07-13-2004, 12:12 PM
Druids here tend to look for solutions, not bashing and mindless bickering. The PC isn't a place for proper discussion since too many clerics and shaman want to push a personal agenda and not work towards a mutually harmonious solution.


Anyways..Clerics? #@$% them. They've had a lock down on groups since level 39 and hearing them complain should fall on deaf ears.

Bashing happens by everyone at times.

Firemynd
07-13-2004, 02:34 PM
I just feel like it is a forum for about 5-7 people to say whatever they want, however they want, and that no matter what else is said, that is what the final outcome is going to be. They will continue to put forth their ideas until people quit arguing back, and then it will be listed as the "accepted and agreed on" stance of the community.

Yep, that's about the size of it. However, SOE will be very aware that any lists they receive from the "Priest Covenant" are not even remotely close to a consensus among the majority of priests... but are rather representitive of a particular view held by a fringe group of extremists who drove everyone else away.

My regret is that the relatively few remaining druids over there are fighting odds stacked against them, when they don't need to put up with all that crap. Hopefully they will find their way into the current discussions on our General board, from which issues are being discussed and taken directly to SOE.

~Firemynd

weoden
07-13-2004, 03:43 PM
DorianBrytestar, I read through your first comments in this thread and your tone was condecending to Firemynd. That tone is not and has never been acceptable on this board. It seems you have realized that through the coarse of this thread.

The current discussion about these never ending threads that never stop repeating the same points makes me skim the first page since it will be repeated, in detail, on pages 2 ~ 100!

I have had some pretty streneous discussions on the unkempt section about "real" topics like gay marriage and the personal attacks never got as bad as the quotes I have read in this thread. I guess, as a long time grover, that disappoints me.

I think defining the issue is the first step in defining the differences. Even defining a "situation #1" and comparing that to a major change that I would refer to as "situation #2".

An example might be maintaining the current paradim and the new spells that can get added might be situation #1. Where situation #2 might have changes that allow clerics become something other than a 1 trick pony without making pallies feel left out. Or a situation #3 where healing gets balanced out between the 3 priests and each priest gets a special "thing" that it does.

For situation #3 this could include making the average dps of each class about the same. Perhaps this would not come from melee but it could be part of it. This would include better heals for druids/shammies.

In any case, SoE needs to bring forward what they think their new vision will be. There is a good point that Firemynd made about this in "another" thread.

PS The grove has many lurkers that post if it is important. Druids tend not to ramble on and on.

PPS There is an exception about a condecending attitude. Back in the 99 -02 timeframe, noob questions were met with a certain amount of condecention/derision. This caused a split in the druid boards. I have not seen these types of posts "lately".

Arienne
07-13-2004, 04:50 PM
That board is littered with disagreements on class balance "pie in the sky" wishes and trying to quash the wish lists of other classes. Very little is really discussed about healing these days. This is exactly why my first statement about getting healers to draw a concensus was "it has to be ONLY about healing".

Blueeyedangel
07-13-2004, 05:02 PM
all i can say is by reading the PC forum i tend to agree that yes there is not many druids posting but i also feel that there is too much /drama. I used to play EQ alot now since summer is here and i am realizing there is life beyond the game.

corlathist
07-13-2004, 05:50 PM
Well I dont feel like giving up firemynd :\

But I do have to admit I was a little suprised to feel the edit bug over calling an arguement weak. Ah well.

Truth, is I dont thinkt he Priests Convent is going to do anything because you have to rebuild too much.

There are also infinite number of scenerious, and yet only one amount of mana. So nothing will be balanced for everything.

Eileah
07-13-2004, 06:01 PM
trying to post a reply but I get an error that it is too short and to make it at least 1 character...

It's 3 paragraphs long =/

help.....

Firemynd
07-13-2004, 06:23 PM
Argue, debate, carry on in the Priest Covenant board all you like.... but please also participate in the discussions on our general board. Read through a few of them and you'll see people giving reasons and examples to support their points, being receptive to differerent perspectives they hadn't previously considered or to issues they hadn't thought about, working together to refine specific proposals, and voicing constructive criticism rather than destructive. We also have a moderator who effectively keeps things on track and tries to provide a bit of insight from SOE's responses to let us know what we can reasonably expect.

You'll find a few disagreements here and there, but the overall atmosphere is quite pleasant compared to what we've encountered on the PC board.

~Firemynd

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
07-14-2004, 10:52 AM
PPS There is an exception about a condecending attitude. Back in the 99 -02 timeframe, noob questions were met with a certain amount of condecention/derision. This caused a split in the druid boards. I have not seen these types of posts "lately".Ah ... 01-02 is when I'd checked out The Druids Grove, saw it looked to be a horribly unfriendly place, and avoided it like the plague.

On most boards, outside my server community board, I post rarely ... mostly reading and thinking about what I read, then discussing it with my partner.

I've been pleasantly surprised and encouraged by what I've seen. Don't know that I'll stay though. I don't believe SOE will make the changes that are important to me, and what I feel is needed to keep EQ enjoyable for me is considered too greedy, even by druids here.

But my needs are different from the needs most others express. I don't solo. I don't do pickup or guild groups, as an officer, I prefer a member get a spot in the guild group, and with both a cleric and a shaman, there really is no need for a druid in that group.

I'm rarely, if ever, in a full group. I'm always main healer, paired with a pally or 2 boxing an SK. I need to be able to heal efficiently and effectively now, not have some carrot dangled in front of my nose that when I'm 65, I'll be able to heal adequately, though certainly not efficiently. That is ... if I can beg a friend to include me in a GoD group. How ... sensible to make every spell in an entire expansion ... no drop. (Or am I mistaken that there is no way to get GoD spells except by turning in a no drop rune for a no drop scroll?)

Nor do I have an intense drive to level to 65, as it's more important to level with my partner, and his play time is sporatic and unpredictable. I leveled to 58 for Tunare's Renewal, 59 for Cabbage, 60 for Nature's Touch and Nature's Recovery (NR was such a waste), and 61 for Replenishment.

Took the couple we regularly grouped with and me a matter of weeks ... mostly in old world or LoY zones. It then took him almost a year to be able to level those same 6 levels :( Especially, when he could no longer log on early enough to group with the rest of the guild. I won't do that again, no matter how attractive SOE makes 65 or 70.

I don't play EQ to be competitive, though I do struggle with a competitive nature. I do expect to be competent at my class and expect others to also be competent. Still, I play EQ because it can be an enjoyable experience shared with friends. But when limitations interfer, limitations kept in place to ensure the dominance of one class, well ... the game becomes much less enjoyable and a lot more frustrating.

This isn't intended to be angry or bitter. I just don't understand the logic of those who post druids are perfectly balanced or that druids below level 65 shouldn't be capable of being sole healer outside the most trivial content.

I don't have a desire to replace a cleric as main healer in cutting edge GoD content. Because, I'll never be there until it becomes terribly trivial ;) But I should have a range of healing tools to enable me to keep my pally partner and myself alive efficiently and effectively ... without having to settle for trivial content below what that same pally with a cleric partner my level could go beyond.

I don't think that's asking too much. But it appears most everyone else thinks I am asking too much.

Iilane SalAlur
07-14-2004, 11:28 AM
In the short time that the PC forum has been opened, it has lost its original premise - that one of the issues contributing to EQ's current decline is the current healing paradigm. The 3 priest classes are for the first time joining together to find common ground and common agreeable solution in order to address this issue. I don't see this happening at all.

Aaeamdar
07-14-2004, 11:52 AM
I am going to suggest the following (which is pretty much exactly what I suggested on the thread that spawned the creation of the forum):

1. Each class board needs to select 3 - 5 representatives.

2. There needs to be an overarching decision made up front about the objective (as stated by someone else ther eare really only 2 alternatives - 1. a grand reblanacing of the preists so each can fulfill primary healing in groups and on raids or 2. a status quo on healing paradigm with some minor tweeks).

3. The board needs a strong, neutral moderator that will
a: keep every thread started on topic; and
b: delete repetative posts

If you do that, the forum might be productive. If you don't, no matter what rules you put in place, you are not going to generate anything worth while when you have a few dozen completely disperate goals held by a few hundred people talking past each other in an attempt to win an arguement rather than hammer out details to reach a spcific goal.

The degeneration of the conversations there into the many classic "arguements" (power lists, "I want it too", "what will you give up", etc.) ultimately dominating pretty much every thread was both predictable and unfortunate. Its also why I left and why I suspect many others that would actually welcome an adult, controlled discussion on the matter left as well.

Len the Druid
07-14-2004, 12:29 PM
"Bashing happens by everyone at times."

Lol, dont use me as the example of druids not playing fair. As i stated i wont get involved in those discussions becaase i can simply not stand Clerics whining about how underpowered they are. No cleric has an idea what's it's like to be a druid. They think since we can go play quake style EQ we live in paradise.

I wish a cleric had even the smallest sense of reality of knowing what it was like to be a druid in the 40's-50's. There were times I would be lfg for an entire day.

Screw them. Yes we can heal trivial content now and that's great that i can do an ldon or ele tier healing AND i can go solo in fire if i want to. But Druids capabilities come in waves. we have to get through a curve with every expansions. Clerics ride waves. It's consistent. Unless you're a complete tool and cannot hit a macro'd heal spell, you'll have group and off you go.

So cry a bit more. You want to have more DPS and be even more valuable in a group? whatever. Give me rez and a cheal then. You want to maintain your spot as top healer for current content? Cool, im with you. That's the way it should be and LO AND BEHOLD..that's the way it is.

Arienne
07-14-2004, 04:41 PM
Well the thing is... it's not going to affect the game or healing balance at all anyway. SOE never even commented on the idea of a healing consensus and hasn't yet to this day. I'd be in favor of just closing the forum but I think there are too many there entertaining themselves and closure would be taken as a hostile act by bitter druids. At this point just let it run it's course and when OoW is released there will be an excuse to lock it and throw away the key :D

Phread
07-14-2004, 05:42 PM
so as i was browsing the covenant's hot topic and then saw this one, i noticed that if you group the most vocal "leaders" of the cleric community, this is what you get as the way to balance clerics:

a cleric that does equal melee damage to a Paladin, while simultaneously nuking at 75% the speed and damage of a druid, but that regens mana while standing (so that they are not penalized for the sad fact that you can't melee while sitting) like a shaman, except without having to cannabalize, and has improved damage mitigation so that they can tank non-leading edge content.

i didn't make that up. every one of those items has been proposed and defended in just 2 threads.

meanwhile, druids should be willing to give up speed and damage of their nukes for improvements to healing, paladins should give up the ability to hold agro for improvements to healing, and shaman should thank god that they have such great dot's and should only heal with HoTs since they have the best one in the game.

now i know the cleric community as a whole isn't smoking crack, but someone needs to get a handle on the voices of the community. because your "spokesmen" are making you look like idiots.

DorianBrytestar
07-14-2004, 07:01 PM
DorianBrytestar, I read through your first comments in this thread and your tone was condecending to Firemynd. That tone is not and has never been acceptable on this board. It seems you have realized that through the coarse of this thread.

The current discussion about these never ending threads that never stop repeating the same points makes me skim the first page since it will be repeated, in detail, on pages 2 ~ 100!

I have had some pretty streneous discussions on the unkempt section about "real" topics like gay marriage and the personal attacks never got as bad as the quotes I have read in this thread. I guess, as a long time grover, that disappoints me.

I think defining the issue is the first step in defining the differences. Even defining a "situation #1" and comparing that to a major change that I would refer to as "situation #2".

An example might be maintaining the current paradim and the new spells that can get added might be situation #1. Where situation #2 might have changes that allow clerics become something other than a 1 trick pony without making pallies feel left out. Or a situation #3 where healing gets balanced out between the 3 priests and each priest gets a special "thing" that it does.

For situation #3 this could include making the average dps of each class about the same. Perhaps this would not come from melee but it could be part of it. This would include better heals for druids/shammies.

In any case, SoE needs to bring forward what they think their new vision will be. There is a good point that Firemynd made about this in "another" thread.

PS The grove has many lurkers that post if it is important. Druids tend not to ramble on and on.

PPS There is an exception about a condecending attitude. Back in the 99 -02 timeframe, noob questions were met with a certain amount of condecention/derision. This caused a split in the druid boards. I have not seen these types of posts "lately".


Weoden, you need to read the rest of the replies where I made it very clear (I even put it at the end of the post you are talking about) that the manner in which I was posting was exacty the way that Fire was posting. So while I appreciate you taking me to task over that tone, you are only reinforcing my statements that it was inappropriate. The only reason I said those things is that they were specifically stated by Fire in the Priests forum (which is NOT the unkempt druids forum where what I said is totally ok)

DorianBrytestar
07-14-2004, 07:09 PM
Len, you make my points far better than I ever could.

:thumbup:

jtoast
07-14-2004, 07:52 PM
PS The grove has many lurkers that post if it is important. Druids tend not to ramble on and on. I am one of these. I don't post often but I stay up to date.

I didn't bother to read through 6 pages of replies but I did skim a few on each page.

What I have decided is that eventually people will realize that balancing one class against another never works.

The only way to do it is take ONE class and make it balanced, then do the rest one by one and tweak the overpowered combinations.

If the druid class as a whole needs to heal more, then it needs to heal more REGARDLESS OF WHAT CLERICS THINK THEY NEED IN RETURN.

If clerics need greater solo ability, then fine, look at it but that has NOTHING to do with whether shaman get a new HoT or faster dot.

Here is what I would do if I ran the PC.

1) Open ONE thread for cleric, one for druid, and one for shaman issues and allow ONLY the respective classes to post. Make them hash out and argue/fight until they come to a consensus on the 5 most broken things about their class. No comparing to other classes allowed. PERIOD. This will be almost impossible due to differing playstyles so we will probably never get to step 2, but I will keep going just in case.

2) After the 5 issues for each class have been agreed upon(mostly) then you lock that thread and open one thread for each issue and brainstorm suggestions for each issue from ALL classes. Brainstorming ONLY. No discussion of why something won't work, just post any and every idea no matter how stupid.

3) Next, you lock those threads and open new ones to discuss why the previous posters ideas are total crap.

4) If, somehow, someway we manage to actually accomplish this, then we put out the fires started by the flaming pigs that flew out everyones butts and open another set of class only threads. These will be for the class members to discuss the best of the ideas in the discussion threads.

5) Finally, if by some weird quirk of fate it rains Skittles and Hersheys kisses and everyone can agree on THOSE ideas, then you open a final thread to all classes discussing what you came up with. (This thread is simply to allow everyone to bitch, moan and complain about how badly they got screwed compared to everyone else..nothing will be accomplished here)

6) After everyone is done bitching, moaning and complaining about how badly they got screwed, you make a few token adjustments, put it all together in a nice package, and give it to your respective class rep to submit to Sony.

7) Sony will then look at each idea, nerf/water them down until they can no longer be recognized for what they were, make a heartfelt promise to take it under consideration, and then solve a totally unrelated problem in the next patch.

8) wash/repeat ad naseum.



Letting everyone just open threads at random and jump from topic to topic with no rhyme or reason is doomed to failure.


It is in this lurkers opinion anyway.

weoden
07-14-2004, 09:53 PM
7) Sony will then look at each idea, nerf/water them down until they can no longer be recognized for what they were, make a heartfelt promise to take it under consideration, and then solve a totally unrelated problem in the next patch.


omg roll on the floor!

Ceneena
07-14-2004, 11:28 PM
SOE never even commented on the idea of a healing consensus and hasn't yet to this day.

Yes they have, http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18955&page=1&pp=15 See the posts made by Rytan (the spell guy).

Firemynd
07-15-2004, 01:18 AM
Hmm... Rytan commented on the current healing paradigm, and he loosely referred to his belief that "the community" can make changes happen ... but he certainly did not endorse, suggest, or even hint that all three priest classes should get together to hash the details out.

Even if he had commended the Priest Covenant concept initially (which he hasn't), I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have many good things to say about all the arguing and bickering that has pervaded discussions since.

~Firemynd

Sobe Silvertree
07-15-2004, 01:54 AM
We are not done :) - but he has been viewing.. that I do know ;)

Arienne
07-15-2004, 09:32 AM
All the more reason for class tags for the posters. :/

What keeps me out of there is things that are so stupid and get so much attention. A druid mentions treeform in passing on the druid thread and a shaman picks it up in the same thread and starts analyzing it with suggested changes etc. Then a cleric jumps in and essentially the conversation is between the two of them as though treeform is THE most important druid concern. Any comments a druid makes between that shaman and cleric's comments are either brushed aside or argued out of existence for posting stamina reasons. Things like that are things that they should be discussing on another thread. NOT the stickied "druid wish list" or whatever you want to call it.

With this much attention to the trivial and useless spells and skills I am afraid that without identification of "this poster is a druid", "this poster is a shaman", "this poster is a cleric" tags that SOE is going to incorrectly think that the shaman / cleric posts are actually druid posts.

Now, I know that later in the thread the druids finally get to point out how useless treeform is, but what of the SOE reader who has only time to skim the forum and doesn't see that druids are pretty much in agreement that treeform is NOT a priority? Most druids DON'T want to go in there and start fighting with the other classes, but we sure don't want to be railroaded by them either.

DorianBrytestar
07-15-2004, 12:24 PM
So I finished my Call of Water quest solo last night in WoW and it was awesome!

It was fun, lots of travelling around to see new areas, and the fight close to the end took finesse and was enjoyable.

I also finished 3 other quests that had developed into huge story lines (kinda like CoH story arcs) and I must say, it was awesome! I also grouped up with some other folks for like the second time ever and we totally destroyed everything around.

At 24 I am liking this game more and more. Dunno if it will be the Next Big Thing(tm) but it looks promising.

Sobe Silvertree
07-15-2004, 01:33 PM
Two things:

http://thedruidsgrove.org/

http://thedruidsgrove.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8797

Understand that this has been part of our plan for a while now..


Community Feedback and discussion

Seperate the forum into class and misc discussions "not closing off the feedback"

Closed doors Working out the Details of final proprosal.

Present Proposal to the community and agreement to such on each class board as a combined effort.

----------------
Wait...

Arienne
07-15-2004, 01:45 PM
:flipbg: I'm happy! As long as druids can talk to druids about changes it makes little difference to me who it is. Overall we have some great levelheaded people on this board!

But one thing! When you're in there talking... don't forget that we need an instacast Feign Death!! :grin:

Sobe Silvertree
07-15-2004, 02:18 PM
no sa.. we need insta cast FD right clicky boots.. :P

!!

weoden
07-15-2004, 02:49 PM
How about insta clicky DB? =)

Arienne
07-15-2004, 03:46 PM
Oooooo insta clickie FD boots!!!!

SOBE FOR PRESIDENT!! :bubbrubb2

DorianBrytestar
07-15-2004, 04:44 PM
I still carry shiny brass idols!!!!!

Accretion
07-16-2004, 07:44 AM
I'd settle for a soul-bound clicky stick. Or perhaps a Divine Res AA with a 5 min re-use.