View Full Forums : Sony has slain Smallguild69!


Swiftfox
07-22-2004, 12:30 PM
The need to belong to a LARGE raiding guild to progress has done in yet another small guild. And I don't mean we all disbanded and joined a large guild.
Server populations are dwindling. $ony messed up BIG TIME. They were too slow to address the problems.. too quick to relase more high end content.. I'm positive their $ubscription rates have droped markedly.

I'd like to link a few private thoughts from our guild's message board and I'm sure its going to represent the failure of EQ at this stage

I think I got the message loud and clear that EQ just isnít fun anymore for most people, we have hit a wall where we are all level 65 and we locked on content, because unless you can devote large chucks of time each week to raiding you cannot progress. Most of us, those who are still playing and those who have retired just canít allocate that much time, we are too casual. One of the comments as well has been that EQ has lost its immersion, it feels more like a job

Everytime I logged onto EQ no one was on and/or there was a raid going on that I did not have time to do. For me that was always depressing. I just do not have the time I used to have to lose myself in a game.

Maybe its just that game is dated.. and we got older playing it. But I really think that they could have kept us playing had they not catered to 45-72 person raids so much. Being 1/72 responsible for the success of beating an encounter just isn't as satisfying as being 1/12-1/18th responsible.

I guess I feel compelled to comment because it feel like a funeral. It makes me sad to see the last 5 years coming to and end when I don't think it had too.. If only $ony hadn't given to little too late.

Wyte
07-22-2004, 01:08 PM
Well said, pretty much hits on the mark, much the same as what Woody (http://www.gucomics.com) has been saying.

Panamah
07-22-2004, 01:28 PM
/nod

I think most of the masses of EQ refugees in Paragon City feel that way.

Klath
07-22-2004, 01:52 PM
Sony has slain Smallguild69!
Good title. I have a feeling that we're caught in a PBAoE attack. :-)

I think I got the message loud and clear that EQ just isnít fun anymore for most people, we have hit a wall where we are all level 65 and we locked on content, because unless you can devote large chucks of time each week to raiding you cannot progress. Most of us, those who are still playing and those who have retired just canít allocate that much time, we are too casual. One of the comments as well has been that EQ has lost its immersion, it feels more like a job
Very well put. Sadly, my guild has started the disintegration process as well. We just lost our only enchanter which, as you can imagine, is a fairly major setback. Like your guild, we've gotten pretty close to the point where we've done everything that we'll ever be able to do given our raid/play time constraints.

Stewwy
07-22-2004, 02:04 PM
There were those guilds that jumped out of the way and were only hit with splatter from the small guild killer that was SOE's PoP. We were SO looking forward to the promised "single group content" and "single group progression" that was advertised. What a freaking joke that was. I'm guessing they were thinking of the PoJ trials as their single group progression or something, and that would be good enough.

LDoN was a good step but it stopped too short because there is a wall there too. There are very few upgrades for my enchanter there now, and no upgrades for me in the hard dungeons, so its only point grinding left, with no real reason to go to one theme more than another.

GoD did little to nothing to help this and if nothing else made it worse.

Maybe they will have learned from the sins of their past and OoW will be something that will allow smaller guild/group progression and development. It really is what SOE needs to do to keep the game alive.

Arienne
07-22-2004, 03:18 PM
Good title. I have a feeling that we're caught in a PBAoE attack. :-)Naahhhh PBAE is done without clerics. :p

Regnon
07-22-2004, 06:29 PM
Alright gonna play the devils advocate on this one.

/em puts on flame retardent suit.


I think the major problem is that people WANT the good stuff, but are not willing or able to do the things that get you the "good" equipment.

I dont think its so much, there is nothing to do, what I think it is, the things you can do, dosent give you the reward you seek, IE Uber Sword of God Slaying +5. So people just bitch there is nothing to do.

Any more , casual guilds can do , NTOV, Kael, Ssra, even some smaller pop gods, Ie Xanamech stuff like that. Ring Wars, Shawl Wars, Greig, Velktor, Sleepers,

stuff like this would give any casual guild pleanty to do. Its when the casual guild sees the Uber friend link them the Shawl with +250 HP and mana on it, is when the **** hits the fan. Your Harder core members all want that stuff so they leave, the lower lvl people are pissed becasue they cant do anything anymore. And the Midlvl people who just were following the guild leader , who Just left them , all kind of go "huh" and get bored.

Bottom line, if you dont wanna spend time in the game, trying to progress, I hear Jhon Madden Football 2005 is pretty good. why play if your not happy.
Paying 13$ a month for something that makes you unhappy is stupid.

you cant make everyone happy all the time. They gave us, Pop and gave the casual people LDON, now that everyone is finished with LDON and have their near Elemental gear from farming points, they want something else. Its in finding that something else that sony now needs to do.

/e runs and ducks behind the bunker. :axe:

Swiftfox
07-22-2004, 06:58 PM
casual guilds can do , NTOV, Kael, Ssra, even some smaller pop gods, Ie Xanamech stuff like that. Ring Wars, Shawl Wars, Greig, Velktor, Sleepers

We did all that already...Seriously, I **** you not. Our limitation was numbers.. and refusal to conform to the Large guild model. We also got our fill on LDON junk.. doing hards regularly .. we got started on gates trials and were moving along nicely .. but we were just moving into content that no one was interested in getting to.. I've got easily over 8000 played hours in, with the most on my druid. I put in the time. That wasn't the issue.

Panamah
07-22-2004, 07:39 PM
I think the major problem is that people WANT the good stuff, but are not willing or able to do the things that get you the "good" equipment.

/e runs and ducks behind the bunker. :axe:

Gonna send the 5th Column after you with those flame throwers. Nothing like watching your character's arse engulfed in flames.

But seriously, this is the issue that lots of us have discussed passionately over the years. Some how CoH completely obviates the need for massive guilds and raids and endless hours online. Even if you can only play in 1 hour segments, you can acheive the same end results as the most hard core gamer ever. In the same amount of time and without having to take along 50 of your dearest friends.

The problem isn't the design of people who put their priority on their real lives. The problem is the design of the game. The sooner that the frustrated EQ players realize this and leave to find a more suitable game, the happier they'll be in the long run.

Iilane SalAlur
07-22-2004, 09:00 PM
All this has been said before in various ways. Now if SOE will listen, recognize that this is a genuine problem and start fixing this problem before it eventually causes the downfall of EQ. I have said before that there is a synergy between the large population of casual players and the high end "elite" raiders. If the casual portion of the game dies off, the raiding will soon follow too.

Regnon
07-23-2004, 12:13 AM
Some how CoH completely obviates the need for massive guilds and raids and endless hours online. Even if you can only play in 1 hour segments, you can acheive the same end results as the most hard core gamer ever.


yes you are correct COH for me was a real nice break from eq. Problem for me ran into when I was lvl 35 Killing the same crap I killed at lvl 1, but with diffrent names , and powers, Same missions, same types, even the TF got boring. I had about 3 million Influence sitting on my charater when I quit, and I had all my powers maxxed out with 35 So's. It was not challenging anymore.

Panamah
07-23-2004, 10:05 AM
Well, the game is only 3 months old and there's been new content released and new content coming every 2 months. However, yes, if you play hours and hours on end it gets dull. But playing as I do for an hour or two at a time, its pretty fun. Lots of character growth all the way up to level 50.

I could make the same argument for EQ though. You're killing stuff over and over. Even worse, you could be killing stuff that gives no exp in order to camp the Key of Ubernzone #92. After I reached 60ish in EQ, I rarely had a chance to do anything new. It was just repetition of the same thing in the same zones. So get another AA that didn't do much for my character and didn't really change what I was doing in the game.

I think the missions in CoH are pretty fun, the story lines are good. Especially when you take a large group. And nothing in EQ can hold a candle to the CoT underground place. That's the coolest tileset I've ever seen.

But the point is, a powergamer probably isn't going to enjoy CoH for long, however it does seem to have a lot of appeal for people that need to fit in real lives around the games they play. I think a lot of that has to do with your mind set going into it. If you're looking for the fastest way to get to level X or if you're insisting on soloing, then it just strips all the fun out of it.

Anka
07-23-2004, 12:47 PM
One thing I like about CoH is that if I run out of content or get bored I can say thank you very much, close my character, and walk away happy. It doesn't feel like EQ where you're always putting in more and more time to get rewards and it becomes part of your lifestyle. The reward in CoH is fun and that's why you play it.

Stewwy
07-23-2004, 04:42 PM
I think the major problem is that people WANT the good stuff, but are not willing or able to do the things that get you the "good" equipment. What a load of crap. I didn't get 17k points and 80 hard wins on my enchanter because of laziness.

Do you even have a clue what you are talking about here? I think not. Let's look at the comparisons a bit shall we? #1 - The best aug'd LDoN gear would take 40k points to make and the time involved in getting it is far longer than raiding takes, #2 - the best gear all made up from LDoN does not even come close to the stat, resist, hp numbers one gets from elemental gear. Not even close. Elemental gear is at least 100% better total stats, 100% better total resists, and 50-100% better in total hp's, thats with the stuff fully aug'd remember. #3 - Asking someone to give up their guild and their lifestyle to conform to a certain playstyle is WRONG! Why should I have to tell my daughter "No I can't play with you honey because I have a required raid to Time." Do you think my 6 year old understands that? Some might say we all make our own choices, but it is stupid to buy into a playstyle that makes people change their lifestyle, and it is POOR design.

/e runs and ducks behind the bunker. :axe: I'm too lazy to flame you myself and want someone to do it for me so I can have the reward of your burnt corpse while not doing the work.

Regnon
07-23-2004, 05:04 PM
"3 - Asking someone to give up their guild and their lifestyle to conform to a certain playstyle is WRONG! Why should I have to tell my daughter "No I can't play with you honey because I have a required raid to Time." Do you think my 6 year old understands that? Some might say we all make our own choices, but it is stupid to buy into a playstyle that makes people change their lifestyle, and it is POOR design."


Yep you are correct, and when I actually get married and have kids, I am sure my playtime will drop almost to 0, but I wont expect to be on par equipment wise, with the high end players anymore.

Stew if your SO WISE, and know all this stuff, then explain to me how YOU would make a game that would cater, to the

1) Hard Core
2) Casual
3) Roleplayers
4) Tradeskillers
5) Everyone in between

so fix it for me would yah?

BTW I took my magelo and I switched out all my Ornate, and several elemental peices, for LDON. this was. BP, 2 wrist, Legs, Boots, Head, Arms, and i switched a ring out for a Tradeable player made one.

Switching all that stuff out, and NOT adding any augments to the LDON profile, I was only 350hp and 400 mana from my current profile, and I am in a Elemental Raiding guild.

Panamah
07-23-2004, 05:07 PM
If it were me, I wouldn't cater to hardcores. They suck the fun out of games, IMHO. They represent a small minority of the potential audience, they're the hardest to keep up with in terms of content. I think you have to sacrifice the rest of your audience to keep them happy, like they did in EQ.

Maybe the hardcore players should change their habits rather than expecting everyone else to conform to their expectations? Play a couple of games at once. Play PvP games.

Tiane
07-23-2004, 05:57 PM
Perhaps that's Blizzard's goal behind their "Rest" system for WoW, which is basically anti-hardcore player. The vast majority of people who play will never even run into it, but the cries of anguish from the hardcore community were loud and continue even still.

Firemynd
07-23-2004, 06:03 PM
I can understand the desire to upgrade gear; acquiring successively better items has always been the underlying theme of EQ. Problem is, people who aren't in raiding guilds look at the gear worn by raiders and perceive a system which rewards a certain playstyle more than others. The discussion typically goes like this:

casual: "hey I should be able to get stuff like that too!"
raider: "you didn't put in the time, you don't deserve it!"
casual: "I pay the same money to play as you do..."
raider: "but you don't put in the same time as I do..."

The question that rarely gets asked, or answered, is: If a player doesn't have the time or inclination to be in a raiding guild and does't aspire to raid, why does he need 7k hp unbuffed or a 7k mana pool?

That's really the heart of the matter. EQ's itemization is designed to allow players to stay on par with the challenge and risk of their current/next content tier. To be successful, raiders in a PoTime guild *need* better stats and resists than non-raiders doing content far below that tier.

There comes a point at which gear quality must peak for a casual player; otherwise the content for that player becomes trivial. Aside from farming older content without a raid force, Hard LDoNs have been the only way they can challenge themselves.

I think SOE really needs to continue developing content for high-end raiders, but also needs to realize that there is a large (and steadily growing) category of high-level players who fall somewhere between 'casual' and 'raider'. There needs to be more content and better itemization .. PoP tier1 was an example of virtually no worthwhile gear of appropriate level outside of flag/raid encounters.

GoD does have some content that would've been suitable for this segment of the populace, but after all the bad press about tedious travel and CRs, several of the folks I know who can't play more than an hour or two per session did not even bother to buy GoD. I'd imagine many others held the same sentiment, figuring if they had more than a few hours each night to blow, they could've joined a raiding guild already and made more productive use of that time.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. :D

~Firemynd

Anka
07-23-2004, 06:08 PM
A good way to cater for casual and hardcore would be to have a layered set of instanced of one (or two) group content in the same way that there is a layered progression of raids in EQ. At each layer balance progression so people who can organise to tackle large prestige events get better rewards for time spent than people taking the simpler one group/soloing route. LDoN does this very well until 65/0AA and then has two extra jumps to hard LDON and GoD trials. If there was proper instanced dungeon progression after the 65/0AA dungeons in the same way that there is a complete raiding path through PoP and GoD, EQ would be much improved. This would suit casuals, full time raiders, and part-time raiders who can then feel all their online time is worthwhile again.

Any problems with that?

Grendul3164
07-23-2004, 06:16 PM
The question that rarely gets asked, or answered, is: If a player doesn't have the time or inclination to be in a raiding guild and does't aspire to raid, why does he need 7k hp unbuffed or a 7k mana pool?

Not often I agree 100% with Firemynd...BUT in order to keep the more casual player excited about logging in (and that next aa is NOT exciting) SoE does need to:

realize that there is a large (and steadily growing) category of high-level players who fall somewhere between 'casual' and 'raider'. There needs to be more content and better itemization

I think they were onto something with GoD, and agree that many people never gave it the chance they should have. There are some very nice upgrades that both randomly drop in zones AND each zone has its share of Name-type mobs. And these are the UNFLAGGED zones (no level requirements, no Kill Uber_Mob_01 flags). All while staying challenging (and surprisingly fun).

Hopefully ooW takes these matters into consideration.

Panamah
07-23-2004, 06:24 PM
It's not just that, Firemynd. It's that for the last couple of years SOE has totally disregarded progression for casual players. LDoN was a stab at it, but pretty poorly done IMHO. Also realize what happens with raiders is that they use their uber equipment to go solo dragons or do in one group what is meant for a small raid. That's another way casuals get shut out. They're also using their extremely uber equipment to do very small scale raids for their twinks so they can do VT on Twink #5. Or at least they were when I left the game. Competing for resources in vastly superior equipment.

Finally.... the next problem is that raiders don't only raid. They also form groups and they compete with the casual gamer for groups. Why would you want to group with a casual gamer when you could get someone in vastly superior equipment for the same job?

And the majority of new high level content coming out is aimed towards the mudflated raiding gear which just excludes casual players yet again.

So what would casual players do with such uber equipment? Probably the same things raiders are, when they aren't raiding.

Aly
07-23-2004, 06:35 PM
So what would casual players do with such uber equipment? Probably the same things raiders are, when they aren't raiding.
Quoted for emphasis. I can't say it any better. The only thing I have to add is this. I played EQ for the storyline. When I first logged on to the game, I could go pretty much anywhere I wanted to and take part in the storyline if I was the appropriate level. Velious was just out of my reach at the time it came out and it only got worse after that expansion. Most of the hardcore raiders don't give a damn about the storyline, but guess where SoE drove all the major events of the storyline... right into othe hardcore raiders path. The people that typically could not care less about it.

Blueeyedangel
07-23-2004, 07:19 PM
"The only thing I have to add is this. I played EQ for the storyline. When I first logged on to the game, I could go pretty much anywhere I wanted to and take part in the storyline if I was the appropriate level. Velious was just out of my reach at the time it came out and it only got worse after that expansion. Most of the hardcore raiders don't give a damn about the storyline, but guess where SoE drove all the major events of the storyline... right into othe hardcore raiders path. The people that typically could not care less about it."


I totally agree with you on that one hun, I love the game for the story line and not the raiding aspect(kinda reminds me of D&D if you follow the storyline)

Firemynd
07-24-2004, 12:46 AM
I think they were onto something with GoD, and agree that many people never gave it the chance they should have.

Unfortunately, people who only play 1-2 hour sessions barely had enough time to recover their corpses each night during those first few weeks after GoD's release, much less the time needed to learn their way around the new zones and get acclimated to them.

Even some of the most uber players in the most uber guilds were complaining about the travel/CR timesinks; now, imagine being a player in mostly LDoN and lesser PoP gear, hearing that someone with 3khp more than you got slapped down in 5 seconds by mobs running faster than SoW, just trying to get from one zone to another.

This contributed to an unprecidented volume of negativity for a new expansion.

A few of us said it from the very beginning of Gates. You cannot spoil players by making travel easier and easier with the passing of each expansion, then drag them kicking and screaming all the way back to the days of boat rides and running through dangerous see-invis mobs just to reach a hunting spot. Sure, a minority of folks enjoyed the challenge, and some appreciated how it brought back memories of "the old days" when we walked through snow.. uphill ... both ways...

Now, if your guild had already farmed the crap out of PoTime, there was really only once choice to make: either keep plugging away to progress in GoD and hope for a miracle or two getting past Uqua, or find another game. Within a few months after GoD's release, some of the most reknowned guilds in Everquest surprised a lot of people by choosing the latter.

And lots of others are losing patience with SOE and its rather outdated 'vision' of expecting players to synchronize their lives with scores of other people in large blocks of time, just so they can log off tired and frustrated when a raid wipes because there wasn't a 1:6 ratio of a certain class.

SOE might eventually realize that the game will either bend a little to meet the needs of its playerbase, or break under the weight of its own rigid vision.

~Firemynd

Lotharun
07-24-2004, 01:52 AM
The question that rarely gets asked, or answered, is: If a player doesn't have the time or inclination to be in a raiding guild and does't aspire to raid, why does he need 7k hp unbuffed or a 7k mana pool?


You can pickup raid your way to the Elements now. Not that that lends itself to the whole answer. Anyhow, I'd sugguest that you full well know the answer to the question you ask. Take a step back and think about it then take a shot at the answer yourself. I'm serous. :dance:

Lotharun
07-24-2004, 01:56 AM
SOE might eventually realize that the game will either bend a little to meet the needs of its playerbase, or break under the weight of its own rigid vision.
~Firemynd

My money is on break. :wiggle:

Grenoble
07-25-2004, 10:57 AM
Personally, I'm so close to quitting it's sad. At the very least, I'll be disbanding my guild, which has been around since '99. Enough people have quit that any kind of raid is impossible. If there are 4 on a night, it's a miracle. And of those, none are healers. We weren't big to begin with, but we always could throw a couple groups together. Now..... :(

Worse, I've been playing my wizard real hard now. Bored with the shaman, impressed with the damage I can do and don't have to listen to buff begging (port begging tho....well, I bet you guys can guess).

And can I get a group? Maybe...after 2-3 hours. Oh sure, I can solo. Maybe I really don't want to...and the experience is no longer solo-friendly.

I want to see the high end game eventually. No, I don't think I'm entitled to the same gear as someone who raids constantly. I don't ask it, cause I haven't earned it. But the irony is...I want to take my wizard to the next level and do some raids, and see new things, and get better toys, and right now I can't even get to 60. I get invited to the same LDoN groups and PoI/PoJ, even though I've done the trials.

God, I used to be anti-social and the queen of soloing, too. Solo'd my shaman to 53-54. Solo'd my druid to 42. The irony is just too bitter!

harvey the dog
07-25-2004, 11:08 AM
the fact of the matter is, sony made the mistake of following the old "squeeky wheel gets the grease". and as many of you know, there were a certain few uber-guild leaders that had enough obsessive compulsiveness in them to plow through content faster than sony could release it, then use their "1 billion hits a day' guild website to scream about it...so sony fixed old content to satisfy 5-10% of the server population, and then released new expansions that made 90% of the rest of the server population pay for the enjoyment of the other 10%...

our only problem is that it took this long for all of us to realize that we werent, each one of us non-raiders, the only ones and get organized. whats really funny, is that when sony FINALLY realized that the non-raiders were the ones paying ALL the bills and were starting to quit in droves for better games, they decided to have this summit thing, and then ONLY INVITED UBER GUILDS...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

because of this kind of attitude from sony, when i went out and bought a new TV and VCR/DVD this weekend ($600), when the salesman asked me what i was looking for, i said "a new television and VCR/DVD by any company but sony."

MadroneDorf
07-25-2004, 02:51 PM
The biggest problem is that making progression at a capped level is well, really hard to balance.

Before Luclin or so, everyone at a level range, whether they played a lot, or a little had relatively the same power, because people who played more/harder, leveled fast, levels formed an equalization between players, so content is easy to design, the hardcore player whos played his char for 8 month and is lvl 56, wont be too different from the person whos played his char for 2 years and is lvl 56. (power wise)

(I've yet to really see any successfull MMoRPG address this, most players I Know in CoH who played a ton got to top level, then made an alt or quit, that doesnt work longterm, because players grow attachments to their characters, and dont want to always have to remake (why dont casuals in EQ just start over everytime they hit a wall!?... becuaes they like their character)

Another Problem is that older content doesnt get adjusted for the realities of the current game, does Kunark Content really need 7 Day spawn time? Does velious? Does Luclin? Not really. When guilds like mine - or ones that are farther along in progression then mine are assaulting new content, the spawn timers arnt too bad at all, the quality of the loot at the time, and the lack of competition make the longer spawn timers a lot more reasonable. While for sure guild at lower levels of progression dont eat new content as fast, theres so much more competing for it, that its really not a good thing. Imagine EQ Guilds/Peoeple as a pyramid, then imagine trying to fit a pyramid into a tube, anyone with a basic knowledge of geometry knows that just wont work!
Of course, a lot of it is players fault too, People are used to in games having anything they want have access to, in a short amount of time, this really doesnt work to well for a MMoRPG, if high end content people "eat content too fast" do you solve the problem by letting everyone eat content to fast? no thats just making the problem worse.

Even LDoN has a lot of problems, taking away the rest between normal adventure crap, let players choose their own adventure, add in better rewards! Older content needs to be adjusted to keep pace with the current game

My biggest complaint/Gripe with the "non-raiding casual" player who say that all raiders suck at EQ compared to them and they are much better players and say "wheres my progression" I want single group content that is hard that drops upgrades for me.. Its there, and then its complained that its too hard? WTF. These people need to realize is that they dont want hard content that drops upgrades, they want content that is relativily easy, doesnt require a whole lot of extra paying attention, that provides upgrades for them, they want to beable to have pre capped level progression, at a capped level. This isnt very feasible, what these players need and want are good "hub/gathering point" zones where a lot of like minded players also congergate, so they can go to this zone go lfg and probably be picked up relativily soon.

EQ really lacks that, the closest to it atm is bastion of thunder, which doesnt have the best zone design for one, and is also not enough.

Campaign for More zones like BoT, Sebilis, etc, thats what most "casuals" want, even if they say they want hard single group (Gear) progression" Most don't, because its there, and they complain its too hard, or have to go through too many loops to get through it (and by going through loops, i mean doing content before that to get to it, aka progression!)

I'll definately agree with Lore, new zones just arnt interesting, Dragons, Froglok, kobold lairs, hell even a lab of a crazed giant outcast, these zones/creatures have a history the player can identify with, GoD lore is so convuluted and really not particuallry interesting it loose's a lot of the sense of adventure that was prevalent in early EQ....

The Froglok King and the Undead Lord! Wow those guys are something i can understand who they are... Anuek Hixxt Pixxt Zha Pixxy Wizzy? wth is that, and why would i care, its not interesting.

Tiane
07-25-2004, 06:46 PM
"Anuek Hixxt Pixxt Zha Pixxy Wizzy" - lol... yeah no kidding. GoD lore is just horrible, what were they thinking. On the bright side, they pretty much scrapped their ideas lore-wise for OoW and are rewriting it to make a bit more sense, I hope.

As a side note, players of ALL styles pay attention to and enjoy the lore that EQ offers... it's always been (up to LoY/LDoN/GoD - The Trash Years) a huge strength of the title.

PS Hi Harvey! Missed your puppy dog hehe.

Kireiina
07-25-2004, 08:28 PM
Don't be dense. People without access to a raiding guild should have some path of progression. It doesn't have to generate the same level of drops as raiding but it has to meet two criteria;

a) Allow people to slowly improve their characters through group actions.
b) Allow them access to new grouping area's once they have improved

(a) should lead to (b) which should lead to another (a). The improvements don't have to be at the same level as raid drops, they just have to be balanced for this path of progression. It's not actually hard, it's just SOE is lazy and stupid. And there definitely is a non-raiding cap in EQ, it's not even particularly high.

And I say this as a time flagged char on one server and a forced non-raider (no guilds in my timezome) on another.

Wyte
07-25-2004, 09:32 PM
There's a brick wall syndrome that's just been getting worse. When you raise the bar in an expansion, and the Time Restricted player is already a few expansions back, AND you require more full raids to progress then you're going to get stuck.

Uberness Chart over 5 expansions:
Casual | Uber/Full Time Raiders
12345 ~ 12345
..... ~ ....-
..... ~ ...-|
..... ~ ..-||
..... ~ .-|||
....- ~ -||||
...-| ~ |||||
.--|| ~ |||||
-|||| ~ |||||
||||| ~ |||||
----- ~ -----

There are some balances allowing time restricted characters to continue though:
- Level increases: Allows fewer numbers to achieve same objectives
- Gear trickle: Droppable gear being sold in the bazaar
- LDON: ... to a certain extent

A time restricted starting the game today, without any twinking help, has a better shot at gear and progression then a time restricted would have back in EQ Classic.

Problem is, things are becoming more difficult:
- New artificial blocks: flags, raid required progression
- Slow release of increased level caps
- No Drop gear becoming the norm

No longer can the Time Restricted player linger one or two expansions back. They are blocked now more then ever. Few, if any, Time Restricted have the resources to tackle Plane of Time, that's 3 expansions back!! Emp/VT maybe.

Will level 70 help? Yes, but also only to a certain extent. When the design becomes such that Time Restricted players are forced into time sinks, there's only so far you can go.

In OoW:
- Could see more pickup raids, level 70 Time Restricted players doing Plane of Time? (possible)
- Could see more droppable gear being sold/traded (unlikely)
- Could see less raid intensive progression (lol)

Compounding the issue is the completely fubar'd healing paradigm.

Is there any cure? /shrug, I dunno. I used to think SOE would "do whatever it takes to ensure the health of the game"... pffftt!!! yeah right.

But, if by some miracle they pull it off, I'll give 'em another chance. (maybe)

Kireiina
07-26-2004, 12:46 AM
Actually pickup raids aren't a solution. For one thing they generally require more invested time than being in a proper raid guild, because they're not as tight and their start times are more variable. Furthermore all they do is move you further along a flag progression which is all designed for raids. Trying to gear up via pickup raids would just be insanely painful.

So if my casual characters gets flagged for time what would I actually *do* there? As someone who mostly plays in a group, at a times when there aren't raids, a time flag, or even a VT flag, has no value.

Nimchip
07-26-2004, 05:00 AM
If it were me, I wouldn't cater to hardcores. They suck the fun out of games, IMHO. They represent a small minority of the potential audience, they're the hardest to keep up with in terms of content. I think you have to sacrifice the rest of your audience to keep them happy, like they did in EQ.

Maybe the hardcore players should change their habits rather than expecting everyone else to conform to their expectations? Play a couple of games at once. Play PvP games.

Hardcores will never change. I believe myself to be a hardcore, i play everyday, i raid everyday. Maybe that's why i see CoH as mayor crappage.. sorry but it gets boring FAST. As for being a minority? I would disagree. There are huge guilds with hardcore raiders AND there are new raiders that are potential hardcore players.

I wouldn't blame most hardcore players for what you hate in EQ. My guild is not that fast plowing through content but we are pretty hardcore about it. We win against mobs, and when we face a challenge... we wipe, we wipe again and again until we get it right.

I think you guys view hardcore players as only the ones that are the top guilds serverwide. I believe this is a wrong generalization. They aren't the only hardcore players. Heh, even people that plow through LDoN single grouping day in and day out getting equipped are -in all aspects- hardcore players.

But i do agree on some stuff. The game (EQ) shouldn't follow the demands made by the first guild that beat the last content released. They are the ones that should get bored with content for beating it too fast, and hey... if your guild beat content fast because they are hardcore, then enjoy maximizing stats and equipment on everyone in the guild until something else is released. The funny thing is, that the biggest crybaby guild leaders that demanded content be done faster have now quitted for some time and have been made other companies' spokespersons.

Now that i think about it... as i said i consider myself pretty hardcore and yes i think casuals should be looked at before hardcore raiders. Because, afterall these casuals may become hardcore suddenly and hardcores can become casuals. But I don't think hardcores should be punished for what they do either. It really is a dilemma, i know that you can't improve the game for casuals without at least SOME hardcores crying and whining about it. Same thing vice versa.

the fact of the matter is, sony made the mistake of following the old "squeeky wheel gets the grease". and as many of you know, there were a certain few uber-guild leaders that had enough obsessive compulsiveness in them to plow through content faster than sony could release it, then use their "1 billion hits a day' guild website to scream about it...so sony fixed old content to satisfy 5-10% of the server population, and then released new expansions that made 90% of the rest of the server population pay for the enjoyment of the other 10%...

Very true. Couldn't have said so better myself.

harvey the dog
07-26-2004, 08:59 AM
PS Hi Harvey! Missed your puppy dog hehe.

you should meet him! he is a sweetheart, just like he looks in the picture.

Macwood
07-26-2004, 02:39 PM
If non-raiding players didn't mean that much to the game, Sony would put out raid-exclusive expansions advertised as "raid-exclusive" content which non-raiders would be unable to access. Instead, Sony releases expansions, of which a large portion is raid-exclusive content (because the squeaky wheel gets the grease, like Harvey said), and tosses in a couple "bones" for non-raiders so they have a reason to purchase it (e.g. PoK, additional bank slots, epic v2.0). It's a bad business move on Sony's part, and hopefully they're beginning to feel the pinch in the wallet area. I'm sure they are, because they hosted that PR stunt called a "summit", but seeing as how they invited mostly uber-guild leaders, I don't think they're getting the message yet.

IMHO, EQ is so grossly marred that nothing short of a full-scale revamping of the game mechanic will save it from eventually crumbling under the weight of Sony's mistakes. If Sony wants to cater solely to raiders, that's fine; there's more than one fish in the MMO pond. But they should stop this charade of releasing raid-exclusive content under the guise of "something for everyone".

Claeopha
07-26-2004, 03:19 PM
Anuek Hixxt Pixxt Zha Pixxy Wizzy? wth is that
That is what I will be petitioning to have my last name changed to, every day until my account is banned. LOL!

That's awesome, and I feel the same way. Who the f*** are these people?

Remi
08-02-2004, 11:41 AM
Our limitation was numbers.. and refusal to conform to the Large guild model. Then think outside of the box. We've created a "large guild" made up of 1/4 hardcore raiders and the rest "casual" The founders came from a "family" chat guild but still wanted to advance in the game. We don't require raid attendance, and our loot/point system is designed to accomodate both the hardcore and casual raiders, as well as multiple toons. We post the "big" raids in advance so folks can make arrangements to be there and we usually get over 72 in attendance. Other nights, we back flag or do EP/GoD raids when we have less on. Only rarely (2 or 3 nights a month) do we not have enough on to raid. And this is because no one "has" to log on or raid unless they want to. We're not a militaristic guild, but one made up of mostly working adults and parents that understand and accomodate real life needs. And guess what? It does work! We're only 2 god kills (Rathe Council and Coirnav) away from Time now and we're very close to beating those. In the meantime, we still have the atmosphere of a family friendly guild. :) I guess what I'm trying to say is there are or can be alternatives to the "uber" guild atmosphere and still advance in EQ.

Claeopha
08-02-2004, 11:58 AM
Remi - what server are you on? :)

I'd strongly consider a transfer to join your guild, if you need more druids. Sounds exactly like what I'm looking for.

Kulothar
08-02-2004, 02:22 PM
/nod

I think most of the masses of EQ refugees in Paragon City feel that way.


Humm... I think I will name my next CoH Character "EQ Refugee" .. now what class... maybe a Tanker for Blaster..

Swiftfox
08-03-2004, 01:12 PM
Then think outside of the box. We've created a "large guild" made up of 1/4 hardcore raiders and the rest "casual" The founders came from a "family" chat guild but still wanted to advance in the game. We don't require raid attendance, and our loot/point system is designed to accomodate both the hardcore and casual raiders, as well as multiple toons. We post the "big" raids in advance so folks can make arrangements to be there and we usually get over 72 in attendance

That's how we have been getting the lower POP gods .. doing that we don't get more than 28-32. Even with that we were teaming up with another guild much like ours.

Palarran
08-03-2004, 08:31 PM
You could try joint raids with more than two guilds. Four relatively small Asian guilds on my server teamed up to form ARoJpn: http://delight.ath.cx/arojpn/ Together they reached both Vex Thal and the elementals a while back. (I don't know how far they've gone beyond that; they tend to keep to themselves, and they usually play during times when I'm normally asleep or at work.)

Kireiina
08-03-2004, 11:50 PM
PoP has already encouraged small, but raid oriented guilds, to join forces. To an extent that's what's gutted so many of the smaller guilds, there best and brightest being lured to raid guilds bulking up for PoP.

But this still says that the only way to progress is to forge the left overs into an ersatz raiding guild, even though the very issue is that their playstyle is not compatible with such. I'd also think the core of such an assembly are far more likely to be apping for an established, and more unified, raiding guild at the first opportunity thus moving the guild backwards.

Palarran
08-04-2004, 12:47 AM
Maybe...the group that I mentioned has been raiding together for several years though, so it seems to be working for them.

Iilane SalAlur
08-04-2004, 01:18 AM
For several reasons, joint guild raiding will only go so far. I've been in a similiar guild for the past 2-3 years. Its been my observation that guildmates who crave for more raiding/uber items will eventually leave for the "true" raiding guilds.

Guildmates wish to retain their casual playing style will eventually realize that raiding is not their game and simply stop raiding. If pushed to a corner either by being encouraged to raid (due to lack of numbers for example) or when they find no guildmates to group with while the rest are raiding, they may eventually just leave the guild or even EQ.

Kulothar
08-04-2004, 09:39 AM
Joining a Raiding guild is not an option for most EQ players. I played since releace and got stuck on RD to get flags for EP/Time because I could only go on pickup raids. Why could I not just join a raiding guild since up till a couple of months ago I played 40+ hrs a week??

Well..
First off, I play a druid.. When AL/FoH/Cronology etc formed they only had one or two druids and those were friends of the people forming the guilds (no offence Sobe). I got invited to AL when it formed and then got told NM because I was a druid. Three of my friends became members and no amount of their asking could get me in. Druids were NOT Raid friendly until SoV and later. I got cut from 3 Vox raids and 8 Naggy raids and never did get to see either one of them because they didn't want druids. The joining requirement either bared druids completely from applying or you had to be the most Uber druid around before joining. If I didn't plan and run my own raids I may never have gotten my Verm Tunic. So it is fine and dandy to be one of the new druids that made 65 in a couple of months and knew someone to be in a raiding guild.

Secondly, I live in EST and have a job.. So midnight EST I log because I like to keep my job..

Thirdly, I have a job so I can't raid during the day or bizarre times when mobs are up and nobody else is on to compete for them. Used to be when I logged on each night, all of the uber mobs had already been killed by the guilds that could log on during the day or 6am and jump the mobs before anyone else could get them.

Fourthly, I have a wife and son, so when it comes down to a guild event or family, I have to consider my decisions. I can't just "drop everything" to go kill a mob or camp a zone for two days.

Lastly, I played for fun and enjoyment and tended to spend time with friends and guildmates in family/raiding guilds that were not so fanatical about being uber. So yes it was mostly a choice of playing style.

So.. why should someone that has more time played such as myself be penalized and never be considered when expansions are planned? Guess my money is not as important.

Len the Druid
08-04-2004, 12:20 PM
There are raiding guilds besides the one filled with social retards who dedicate their lives to this game.

Tiane
08-04-2004, 05:15 PM
That was certainly not called for Len. Back off.

Len the Druid
08-04-2004, 06:24 PM
my apologies ..I thought is was in unkempt where "The realm of the Unkempt Druids. General discussions for the thick skinned only! - Low Moderation" was the rule.

oh wait..i am.

Len the Druid
08-04-2004, 06:30 PM
bah now i feel bad...

For Tiane.

Dear someone who posted earlier..

/hugs
/kisses!

The game has moved on from the casual environment. I think you'll find if you do your homework there are a lot of guilds that are not trying to beat the game, need druids, and respect people with balanced lives. If not on your server I would suggest hitting other server homepages.

If they have a general section just ask where people are in GoD and Planar progression. find a guild that's maybe on say RZtW and hook up with them. You'll find that tha's not an amount of flags you cant catch up to with even a limited play time, and the gear you'll acucumulate will open up your ability to handle GoD.

Good luck!
/smoochies!
:dance:

Tiane
08-04-2004, 06:42 PM
Personal attacks are not allowed on *any* section of this board. Since you basically called your Administrator a "social retard who devotes his life to the game" while adding *nothing* to the conversation, I should think you'd have the good sense to back off. Seems I was wrong. Consider this a warning, and grow up.

Len the Druid
08-05-2004, 12:15 AM
Where do I call you anything of that sort, Tiane?

MadroneDorf
08-05-2004, 02:57 AM
When you call a group of people something derogatory, you often make people who may not have been your intended target, feel like they were the subject of the attack.

Koie Phish
08-05-2004, 09:19 AM
I think he was just stereotyping those guilds in general and not calling out anyone in particuliar...I'm not picking sides here just saying what I believe he meant to express.

Kulothar
08-05-2004, 11:22 AM
Sorry Len... I missed the derogatory name calling.. what was it again??

Yes I have been in Raiding "Associations" and raided with teir II guilds that raid hard content but even those semi-hard core players are not the ones the expansions are designed for. Only the hard-core no-life-outside-of-time/GoD-plane players.

Those were the ones you were refering to wasn't it Len??

Len the Druid
08-05-2004, 01:01 PM
yes..

Though honestly I think you have more options out there than you're recognizing. Without sounding like a conspircay theorist..the..hmm I dont want to offend anyone here...the inordinately free time blessed raiders like to talk up their exploits more than the exploits are really worth.

Meaning. The end zones in God are out of control. But there is no reason you and some decently played 65's cannot do sewers 1-4, barindu, ferubi (of course natimbi) and riwwi named.

They drop some really nice stuff.

I really believe there's a perception that GoD is not for everyone which i dont think is true. It is hard. And you have to be error free. But it is doable. For myself, GoD has had some amazing moments for me. Keeping an SK up against the final mob in trial 6 while our chamred pooka finsihses him off was a hoot. Hiding in deep ferubi after getting necro rezzed in a corner trying to figure out how we're going to get ourselves out of there reminded me of early visits to OS.

Aladriel
08-07-2004, 05:12 PM
Wow. I first visited Druid's Grove as a young druid in 1999. I figured I would give it a shot again. I'm rather shocked by the hate for high level guilds. I think people's frustrations are being directed to the wrong place. Hard core players aren't the problem, Sony's design of the game is. I totally agree with the need for more challenging and rewarding content for mid level type guilds. That's something Sony needs to change. But ranting about high tier guilds isn't going to solve anything.

The funny thing is...people don't seem to realize that if all the high tier guilds on all servers suddenly up and left, the guilds the next tier down would just rise to the top to fill in the gap. Those guilds (some of the ones complaining about high tier guilds now) would then become the target of others.

It's not necessary to be a "I don't have a life so I play EQ 24/7" player in order to see high end content. My guild just recently (about 2 months ago) became flagged for PoTime. We are also mostly all flagged for KT and working on the first 3 Ikkinz raid trials. Yet we are a "casual" and family oriented high tier guild. Ages of players in my guild range from early 20's all the way up to 60ish. Most have husbands/wives, children, demanding jobs, etc.. Even given all this, we still manage to deal with high level content. Our required percentage of raids attended is extremely low. You are allowed to have a real life without fear of being disbanded.

My point, I guess, is that not every high tier guild is filled with hard core people who don't have a life. There are ways to get there without having that type of guild. We might not be the first to get there (or second or third) but we get there.

Would be nice if people thought before they make rash generalizations about high tier guilds :) Doing a little homework before you say such things might teach you a bit about how these things truly are. :)

Aly
08-07-2004, 07:07 PM
Would be nice if people thought before they make rash generalizations about high tier guilds
That kind of guild is the exception to the rule I'm afraid. That's why the rash genralizations.

Palarran
08-07-2004, 08:27 PM
It's not all that uncommon. My guild doesn't have any required attendance rate, and we're at about the same place in terms of progression (Time flagged 3 months, 2 ikkinz raids completed). Most of us have fulltime jobs, and we have a number of married couples in the guild. We simply ask that people show up for scheduled raids if they're in game to begin with.

Aly
08-08-2004, 07:54 AM
Having a full time job does not preclude you from being an uber goober. I know that. I can read a clock and know the number of hours there are per day. Being an uber goober is usually more of an attitude in the game than it is how long you work/play.

Kytelae
08-10-2004, 12:45 AM
The point in this thread that interests me the most, because I never thought about it, is how the GoD lore is so disconnected with the rest of EQ lore. And though they went to great extents to try and make a storyline for it, I never found myself caring and never realized why.

I visited Natimbi a few times and really liked the mob models and found some other things intriguing, but never really felt at home. And now I know why - it was more like something pasted onto EQ, not a part of the world as I know it. Even POP, which I HATED when it came out, at least attempted to follow the EQ lore lines.

Juniper
08-10-2004, 03:44 AM
Read the stuff in the Storyline function. Morden Rasp and his whole motley crew are smoking some serious dope. I still wonder why I'm supposed to care about the Wayfarer's Brotherhood at all. To save the world from interdimentional goat women who opened a portal to the Realm of Discord?

Hi. I want my dragons back. Any time now, pretty please.

Eridalafar
08-10-2004, 09:47 AM
I was a big fan of Morden Rasp in LDoN, it was something new in the world of EQ with a lot of potential. With a story that I was able to follow (the multiple camp where Morden was going) that introduted some new zones (Chardok B and Sol C) and the LDoN them-self.

In gate, I have begun to hate Morden, because he can solo all the dangerous zone that take an uberguild to go in and live. If only Sony have used him as herald to the new continent and used the in-game story to say that guild XYZ in our server have suvived the encounter (put a new story when a guild do a first in all the servers, then change to the one in the local server do it on the server). As soon that Morden was doing that even uber guild wasn't able to do at the time I have lost all interest in the Gate story. I don't need a EQ Elminster (a D&D perso that already done everything and like a living god).

Eridalafar

Solice Farwalker
08-10-2004, 04:17 PM
It's a game - you play to have fun. SOE is loosing (or may even have lost) sight of that fact.

Some have fun raiding. Some have fun grouping. Some have fun soloing. SOE needs to cater to each and every one of those people (they promised to back in 99 when the game was released). However, SOE seems to have a serious problem with multi-tasking.

Barraind
08-11-2004, 06:29 AM
The Froglok King and the Undead Lord! Wow those guys are something i can understand who they are... Anuek Hixxt Pixxt Zha Pixxy Wizzy? wth is that, and why would i care, its not interesting.


Ooooh! My biggest gripe in ALL of EQ were people trashing Luclin during Luclin because of the way mobs were named. There was an entire Akhevan language! EVERY item that was written in Akhevan (anything you looked at and said "wtf?" in Luclin for the most part) was 100% translatable.

In VT, you just didnt have a lot of "random akhevan 01-134's (bad pull :x)", you were actually pulling "Strongest Shade of an Akhevan Shadowknight" (Eom Va Liako Xakra). You didnt just fight "Kaas Thox Xi Ans Dyek" or "Kaas thox Xi aten Ha Ra" (yes, i know these by heart, I really need to forget some of this crap) you were fighting "The Black Blood of the Earth" and "The Black Blood of the Mistress of Shadows (there were a lot of ways to interpret Aten Ha Ra).

You didnt fight "stupid 4arms on floor 1" you fought the Armorer of the Akhevan, The Weaponsmaster of the Akhevan, and the Elite Craftsman of the Akhevan (Diabo Xi Xin, Diabo Xi Va, Diabo Xi Xin Thall)


Most people that saw it figured out how to tell mob type and level (prefix is level, last word is class, xakra means shade), but it extended far beyond that. It made the first VT runs not too boring, as we got to actually translate mob names based on other items and lore.

I assume there is a similar lore to GoD.



From here down is why casual players suck (no, not really)


I can understand the desire to upgrade gear; acquiring successively better items has always been the underlying theme of EQ. Problem is, people who aren't in raiding guilds look at the gear worn by raiders and perceive a system which rewards a certain playstyle more than others. The discussion typically goes like this:

casual: "hey I should be able to get stuff like that too!"
raider: "you didn't put in the time, you don't deserve it!"
casual: "I pay the same money to play as you do..."
raider: "but you don't put in the same time as I do..."

The question that rarely gets asked, or answered, is: If a player doesn't have the time or inclination to be in a raiding guild and does't aspire to raid, why does he need 7k hp unbuffed or a 7k mana pool?


The answer is simple. "They Dont". A player who doesnt raid, nor have the desire to, in EQ, will never need that type of gear. A player who doesnt raid the upper level zones will not need upper level raid drop items.

All raids are designed to be beaten with gear a step below it. Time is beatable in straight elem gear. Elem is done in VT/ornate. VT was done in SSra/NToV. Ssra was dont in Ntov. NTov was done in West/East gear, and those were done in whatever random gear you had (or VP for the longtime raider)

Its not a matter of "I pay the same, I should get the same". You pay for access to the content. You have the same access to the content as anyone else, some people just choose to effectively use their time (we have people who work 8-10 hour days and have families they spend lots of time with who spend a few hours a night 4-5 days a week raiding) to access it faster. Some people make the decision to never access it at all.

They have every right to access it though, thats what they pay for.


Perhaps that's Blizzard's goal behind their "Rest" system for WoW, which is basically anti-hardcore player. The vast majority of people who play will never even run into it, but the cries of anguish from the hardcore community were loud and continue even still.

That was perhaps the most enjoyable thing to see, because in every form but the current, rest did nothing but HELP the hardcore gamer. In its current form, its just pointless. Blizzard isnt really sure what their goal is, its changed a few times since beta started.


Seriously, this is the issue that lots of us have discussed passionately over the years. Some how CoH completely obviates the need for massive guilds and raids and endless hours online. Even if you can only play in 1 hour segments, you can acheive the same end results as the most hard core gamer ever. In the same amount of time and without having to take along 50 of your dearest friends.

The problem isn't the design of people who put their priority on their real lives. The problem is the design of the game. The sooner that the frustrated EQ players realize this and leave to find a more suitable game, the happier they'll be in the long run.


The thing is, people DONT want the same results from being the most casual player ever and the most hardcore player. No casual player will ever say they expect the same things from a game as a hardcore player. The casual player always wants something to look forward to, the hardcore player plays to be the best equipped or most well known.

You see this in WoW already. People are already bored of the lack of highend content (or more specifically, raids), and the game is still in closed beta. Thes epeople include "casual" players who likely would never even enter a raid instance.


We were SO looking forward to the promised "single group content" and "single group progression" that was advertised. What a freaking joke that was. I'm guessing they were thinking of the PoJ trials as their single group progression or something, and that would be good enough.

Single Group zone in PoJ, single group flag quests for every zone pre-solro (except ponb, which was 2groupable), single group quests (planar manuals), sinle group bosses... There was single-group everything in PoP. All the big guilds single grouped to 65 in the zones everyone pooh's now too.


LDoN was a good step but it stopped too short because there is a wall there too. There are very few upgrades for my enchanter there now, and no upgrades for me in the hard dungeons, so its only point grinding left, with no real reason to go to one theme more than another.

GoD did little to nothing to help this and if nothing else made it worse.

The problem is, the entire game has hit a wall. Raid content is harder each expansion, to get use out of the best gear from the previous. Groupable items get better each expansion. Look at ornate and LDoN top-tier armors. They are nearing what is even current raid equipment. Theres a point where items, spells and foci simply cannot get any better. That time is now. In OoW, you will see 300hp/mana items from raids, and post-elem items from groups (were already seeing elemental level items from 6man mobs).

There is absolutely nowhere to go from there in terms of "single group progression".

B_Delacroix
08-11-2004, 08:12 AM
I would have to agree with Panamah. 9 out of 10 players of EQ, when I played, would have labeled me a casual. However, I see that there are about 10 definitions for casual if you ask 10 different people. I will never put a game in front of real life. To some, that's reason enough not to be allowed to even play much less be able to get anything out of a game.

I tend to see things with what I think is a more moderate viewpoint. I wanted to see the elemental planes, the high end content and follow along with the lore. I did everything I could to achieve that short of stepping on other people for my own benefit. The problem is, there is more to it than just wanting to to do it. There is a factor involved that just doesn't work. The progression of a person like me was blocked because you just couldn't be on at the right time with the right people. It wasn't a matter of having enough of the skilled players together to do content, you also had to hope that someone didn't just kill off that content just before you did. Even if you did get there, you had to hope someone didn't just come along and take it out from under you. Both of these happened quite a bit.

We had a superb set of players who could do anything in the game if we tried. The brick wall, though, came along that we just couldn't find anything anymore. That lead to stagnation or repeated attempts at things that were above our level. That lead to disgruntlement. Watching everyone around them progress by riding the local uber guild train made them want to join the fast track, too. It was a process that fed on itself. People left so we could do less. Since we could do less, people left.

I spent every bit of my time online trying to improve my character to where I could perform my duties to the best of my ability in gear and spells. It didn't matter unless I could also conjure up 60 more people who would do the same thing.

In my opinion, if the content required for progression was resistant to greifing and was around in a manner in which you could plan a time to do it, the game would be loads better.

Katnips
08-11-2004, 10:08 AM
They have every right to access it though, thats what they pay for.
And this is where you fail. Yes, I paid to play EQ. I paid to have access to the content. However, the design of the game is such that to access that content you must put the game before real life in many situations. I never played past level 45 because I did not like solo'ing and to get a group at those levels is painful. I only get an hour here and there to play games because of my job and my family. You cannot progress at a reasonable rate in EQ with only an hour to play here and there.

And I'm just talking about gaining levels, let alone actual raid content. If it takes x amount of hours to hit level 65, it should take that amount of time regardless of how long you log on, within reason of course. I should be able to log on for an hour and make the same kind of progress that a hardcore gamer makes in an hour. That's all the parity I'm looking for. I understand some events may take longer than an hour, but if instanced content was used, I could schedule a weekend in advance to attend that event and make the time for it.

I cannot make that kind of time for a game every weekend or even several times a week. Which is why I play City of Heroes now. I can log on for an hour and do a mission or two, or even three if I'm doing well. The amount of progress I make in that hour is the same progress that anyone in the game can make. Not including the people that camp the Circle of Thorns behemoth portals for three or more hours as sidekicks to level 40+ heroes.

I hope the devs for EQ2 have taken note of the complaints about EQ, WoW, and learned from what makes CoH a fun game for everyone.

... single group flag quests ...
If I'm to understand Panamah's past posts correctly, these single group flag quests are only for access to the zones and do nothing for actual progression through the content and storyline. Why bother then? Those quest flags won't be worth anything when you want to see the Plane of Time.

The thing is, people DONT want the same results from being the most casual player ever and the most hardcore player. No casual player will ever say they expect the same things from a game as a hardcore player.
Why not? It would mean the game has true balance for time spent playing. If the casual player games for ten hours in a week, they should make the same progress that the hardcore player makes playing for ten hours in a day.

corlathist
08-11-2004, 10:09 AM
I do not think EQ is as casual unfriendly in whats out there, as much as its casual unfriendly if you dont have specific friends to move to a place to camp stuff.

Look at this profile:
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1026778

On my server on eqrankings:
60th by Mana
52nd by Hps

It's not even the best I could make 1 groupable for a lot of reasons:
a) I did zero flags so no charm. Not even including flags that most servers do on pick up raids.

b) because of the no flag rule, that meant no one groupable nice gear from the new VP, Kotd, Sol Ro. thought about allowing Kotd since you can 1 group your way to that, but decided not to.

c) I aimed for purchasable gear even if it was a little less in some slots just to make camping requirements less.

d) I severly limited Ldon Points spent.

e) However, this is a Cash Intensive Profile. You could buy Mqs, and items somewhere in the neighborhood of 500k

Nimchip
08-11-2004, 11:42 AM
Of course, it all comes down to generalizations and stereotypes. A problem that goes beyond a single computer game and into the real world.

Thanks for making me the target of yet another "generalization". First i'm a spic, and then im an uber, just because i find the time to play eq and raid everday.

Koldriana
08-11-2004, 01:32 PM
I do not think EQ is as casual unfriendly in whats out there, as much as its casual unfriendly if you dont have specific friends to move to a place to camp stuff.

Look at this profile:
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1026778

On my server on eqrankings:
60th by Mana
52nd by Hps

It's not even the best I could make 1 groupable for a lot of reasons:
a) I did zero flags so no charm. Not even including flags that most servers do on pick up raids.

b) because of the no flag rule, that meant no one groupable nice gear from the new VP, Kotd, Sol Ro. thought about allowing Kotd since you can 1 group your way to that, but decided not to.

c) I aimed for purchasable gear even if it was a little less in some slots just to make camping requirements less.

d) I severly limited Ldon Points spent.

e) However, this is a Cash Intensive Profile. You could buy Mqs, and items somewhere in the neighborhood of 500k

OMG..I wish I was THAT casual. I don't know where your definition of casual comes from but It looks nothing like mine. Not saying that it isnt possible, but that I have yet to see a 'casual' player with that kind of gear or the ability to get it. Somethings to keep in mind..

As a 'casual' player, if you go to Ferubi etc..prepare to die immediately because you will not have the gear in the first place to survive a couple of hits from those mobs. Your group, will be comprised of whatever friends happen to be online at the time - mine is uaually Cleric, Wix, Pally, Druid and whatevr else we can scrounge up. We are all pretty non-uber as I think most people in the same position likely are.

I play about 5 hours a day..been doing it for almost 2 years. Not in a high end raiding guild and probably more 'hardcore' than MOST casual players.
My gear (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=653397) isnt even remotely close to what you are describing and is likely better than at least 80% of the druids in my guild at my level. This is casual..your profile is more like what a druid would be able to get if they were already well geared to start out with. Its pretty tough for a mostly bazaar geared player to go to GoD and live long enough to get upgrades like those. Hard LDoN..I can see being doable. Higher end GoD zones, I cannot.

Not saying that its Impossible, but just my opinion that your profile is not within doable limits for a 'casual' player..not normally.

Anka
08-11-2004, 03:24 PM
I do not think EQ is as casual unfriendly in whats out there, as much as its casual unfriendly if you dont have specific friends to move to a place to camp stuff.


Look at the raiding progression to get from tier 1 PoP to GoD Kodtaz, including the amount of fully designed encounters. Then look at the non-raiding progression and the number of zones/camps available and possible upgrades. You will see that there is far more content in place for raiders with well defined steps for progression. Those steps do not exist continuously for non-raiders, especially if you exclude elemental flagging. This means that non-raiding players (and everyone else) hit walls where they struggle to find steady advancement without raiding.

If you consider that raiders can also still use the group based content that casuals have, then you see the massive advantage raiders have in terms of progression paths.

Kireiina
08-11-2004, 08:41 PM
My 35 hp Ornate plate bracer, which I have to wear because it's one of the very few FT items a non raider can get (the other being mostly LDoN Aug's) is close to raid level gear? That's pretty funny. Realising there's *one* mp item in the game, that it's the base 10% that a raider wouldn't even spit on, and that it's attached to another crappy item is just nasty.

LDoN does give a casual player a path of gear progression, but it's of a level of tedium that would even have most raiders considering playing other games. And hint, most casual gamers do not have half a million plat to invest in their gear. The reason being that the best way to make insane money is to farm cutting edge gear, and raid equipped characters are much better at that.

Still, it will be fun to watch OoW and see SOE's response.

Aly
08-12-2004, 08:55 AM
I'm not impressed with LDoN upgrades. I'm not impressed by the Summit. Nothing that has come out of the summit as of yet, has even garnered a tiny bit of interest in coming back. They need to have a summit and invite someone other than uber goobers. Maybe then SoE would see what's wrong with the game.

Fairweather Pure
08-12-2004, 10:55 AM
LDoN does give a casual player a path of gear progression, but it's of a level of tedium that would even have most raiders considering playing other games.

Actually, most players who I know that raid Time/GoD have also pretty much finished LDoN as well for the HP augs for all thier gear. So in reality, it's a level of tedium that raiders do in addition to our normal raid schedule. If I had no raids to attend, I would've maxxed all my adv camps (70ish wins each) months ago.

Anka
08-12-2004, 03:51 PM
Actually, most players who I know that raid Time/GoD have also pretty much finished LDoN as well for the HP augs for all thier gear.

On my server that was probably due to the guild rotation on Plane of Time pre-GoD. The Time capable guilds spent one or two days a week in Time and the rest of the time had to stomp about LDoNs. That again was only due to poor game design in terms of both Time instancing and the triviality/repetivity of the only content to provide non-raid progress for Elemental geared people.

Kireiina
08-12-2004, 06:46 PM
That's correct. The people in the raid guild I was a member of worked out what they wanted in LDoN and got it. Being raid geared they did LDoN's fast, and at that point it was great XP and good money, it helped me do from 63-65 in a week or two. And now they wouldn't touch it.

The thing is it's really when you consider earning a full suit of raid level armor, say the 1.4K points stuff, and then aug'ing it including the type 3 focus aug's (all 1.4K) that it gets silly. Especially because you're doing LDoN's slower anyway. Trying to do it through pick up groups, uggh, with all the LFG downtime and bad groups that would be so painful.

Aly
08-12-2004, 07:14 PM
Trying to do it through pick up groups, uggh, with all the LFG downtime and bad groups that would be so painful.
Even as a rogue, if I didn't have friends that wanted to do LDoN adventures... it was painful to get a group for LDoN points. Most of the LDoN groups were set groups of friends or guildmates that very rarely had a spot open for someone else.

Wyte
08-12-2004, 11:56 PM
Anyone else have this compelling urge to change your name to "Odin"?? I sure do...

Scirocco
08-13-2004, 12:15 AM
Heh...yeah, it's a great sig pic :)

Aly
08-13-2004, 04:32 AM
I wish I had the artists skill with digital painting. I can visualize stuff in my head but translating that to any kind of medium, be it canvas, paper, or digital media is where I fail. I might pick up a wacom tablet soon though and see if that helps me when I'm doing digital cartography for D&D. I'm also researching how Ms. Syberg did that photo. She mentioned something about smudge and dab techniques.

If you mouse over the sigpic it links to the fullsize original artwork. The artist made that picture into a portrait for use in NWN.

Fairweather Pure
08-14-2004, 06:42 PM
My observations were that the day crowd fought in LDoN during the day, and raided at night once the numbers logged on to do so. Besides, it takes a whole 45 minutes for a LDoN adv? That's an excellent use of down time IMO.

Kellaen
08-15-2004, 12:34 AM
The problem with the game over the last few years has been the degridation of accomplishment in terms of time windows for play. Even at it's worst point in the past, if you could field 1-2 hours you could get something done. At this point in the game everything is so highly involved with 'downtime' that by and large it is killing off the massive playerbase that was only ever able to field 1 - 2 - 3 hours a day to play. Releasing GoD in the state it was didn't help things at all, quite to the contrary.

Want to go play in GoD? Spend 15 minutes moving to the zones, another 15-30 for CR or zone tag for people who's invis failed or was spotted by a see invis and proceeded to get gang raped by crap xp blues hitting for 700's. Then you get to a spot, finally start clearing and 1 messup means another 20+ minutes of CR due to mobs being insanely tuned towards raid level dps spikes. Now hard mobs isn't a problem for my groups generally, but couple this new style xp content with a 10.5khp 2kac warrior getting slapped around with constant ch's needed, and you can see just how well that casual player tank with 2k less hp and 600 less ac fairs in said content. Short answer - they didn't, they got constantly raped and finally said '****-it, i aint paying $13+ a month for this'.

That is the situation with GoD, and tho they have somewhat made things marginally better the same retardation in content design, from the casual perspective remains prevelant. It is a failure of an expansion for the largest segment of the playerbase that finances the top's toys, and unlike other former expansion failures for this demographic, those who do not have hours a day to play with are leaving the game - in droves.

I used to be a staunch supporter of how raiding was structured in EQ, tho reflecting upon how things are now has made me realize how flawed the game has become. Take away the hours per day of uninterrupted play and what you have left is a shade of what this game used to be. Guild summit this, prolonging OoW release that - from the looks of things not much is apt to change in this regard. Beta NDA or not, information is getting out there at what is on the horizion. As to just what that means to everyone will of course be different, but it's convinced me that another bucket of the same old-same old is approaching, and i'm not sure just how long i'll remain interested.

beasthealer
08-15-2004, 11:11 AM
if you could field 1-2 hours you could get something done

You got to be kidding me.
during kunark it took 20 min to get to seb, 20 to make the group then you spent 10-20 clearing to camp (depend on what camp u menaged to find free if any where free) then you pray that you will not wipe since CR took so long.
HS was more or less bring your own group.

Valius? log in ask to join some of Velk camps lists, spend 2-3 hours waiting to get invite.
DN group would take even longer and you didnt have much chance unless you know the people, wipe at DN ment corpse summon and begging a necro to run with you all the way to DN.

Don't tell me about the good old days they had there own problems.

The diffrent is that then if you didn't had the 3-4 hours to play you went to some lowly zone spent 1-2 hour killing trash and was quite happy since you got some xp and/or some loot (places like Sol B etc)
Today everyone look at the guy next to them and say i want to be like him, i want the same loot that this guy have, i want the same amount of xp this guy get, people don't look at themself they look at what others have.
And i never will have the same loot as someone who can play 5-6 hours each day and is at the last zones of God, i will never get the same amount of XP or the amount of AA they have, but i play when i can i try to have fun when i play and not to look at what others get but at what i am getting.

Kellaen
08-15-2004, 12:57 PM
Crying foul of my 1-2 hours then stating you could get something done in 1-2hours in the old days, kind of a contradiction. At any rate, you could get something done in relatively small ammounts of time in the past. You can't just say 'forget the past' because it is what shapes the future. Ignoring it and you end up with what we have today, ever2ndjob.

Tiane
08-15-2004, 03:32 PM
Nah, during kunark, all the casters were bound at the sebubble, and Seb was so hopping on Xegony you could just walk in and find a half dozen guildies or a pickup group within 15 minutes 8)

Panamah
08-15-2004, 11:10 PM
Maybe EQ (MMOG) players are just getting older and don't have as much time to play as they once did. I know my butt starts to hurt after a couple of hours now. I can't imagine how I did some of those long play sessions of yore.

Karanthal
08-20-2004, 07:51 AM
LDoN does give a casual player a path of gear progression, but it's of a level of tedium that would even have most raiders considering playing other games

It is the raiders huge tollerance to tedium that has them where they are. That casual druid profile is obtainable, you do need a group made up of the right classes, but apart from that its very doable.

A casual player could well have 500kpp, I know a couple of people that have never been flagged for anywhere but PoD/PoS/BoT that have well over a million pp from nothing but tradeskills. If you can only put an hr aside a day you can farm spider silks/make sheets of metal or whatever to improve your skill.


If you have a small guild full of people that are as commited as some of the posters on here, then they will progress. The problem is the small guilds tend to have 1/2 people that work really hard for the guild and lots of others that just cant put in the same amount of commitment. You can only progress if everyone can turn up for a raid, be it once a week or every night. 30 people can see you through luclin and well into pop, with level 70 comming soon probably 20-25 for luclin.

Damacien
09-19-2004, 12:04 PM
I almost never post on any forums however i do love to read what are on peoples minds, but this thread kind of put something into perspective for me all of a sudden, perhaps because of how big the elections are this time around and the state or the USA right now, so follow me for a sec if you would =) ...

EQ or MMORPG's as a whole are really little "countries".. Since the "countries" birth, it has begun to experience real life issues such as growth, finding itself socially , inflation ( Bazaar sales) curruption (outside sales of money and characters)and growth of big buisness(Large old raiding guids) SOE being the federal government is always trying to keep order and controll of its fast growing world ...really folks by reading between the lines what i see is two "Political parties " that have formed much like Republicans and Democrats now i know all of you know what makes those two parties different so i wont go into detail. Im not the best at putting my feelings into words nor am i the best speller so im sorry if ive confused everyone to no end, but i guess what im trying to say is EQ much like any country will always have two different views about whats best for its people so really i personally do not see an end in sight much like i know the Democrats and Republicans will always say they have all the right answers .... Personally i see points on both sides however im smart enough to know that there will never be a 100 percent aproval rating on eather side. Do i think EQ will fall on its face and die like some are saying... no....i think EQ will continue to change over and over catering to the side with the biggest voice much like our USA.. Hopefully cooler minds will prevail and we can kick back and just play the game untill we decide that it isnt for us anymore and them move on to another game...thanks for your time ..if you got nothing out of this, thats cool, i was just bored at work for a few min ..anyone that did im glad i got someone to take an interesting new look at the situation ...


Damacien Dyrewolf
Druid of the 65th season
Proud Members of Shattered Destinies
7th Hammer Server