View Full Forums : Shadowfrost II The Revenge...


Regnon
07-31-2004, 09:44 AM
Apparently trying to convince the OTHER priest classes that they are underpowered has come to a halt so now they are attempting to convince everyone else. Same crap, diffrent board,

http://forums.interealms.com/ranger/showthread.php?threadid=39185

Arienne
07-31-2004, 10:08 AM
I skimmed a few first pages. I love how my spells and abilities get SO MUCH BETTER when clerics discuss them.

It's a shame that anyone can post about other classes without really knowing more than envious hearsay.

Oh well...

Fenlayen
07-31-2004, 12:57 PM
Apparently trying to convince the OTHER priest classes that they are underpowered has come to a halt so now they are attempting to convince everyone else. Same crap, diffrent board,

http://forums.interealms.com/ranger/showthread.php?threadid=39185

Yeah this is constuctive and worth the bandwith you've taken up cross posting it.

/golf clap

Firemynd
07-31-2004, 02:12 PM
Fenlayen: Yeah this is constuctive and worth the bandwith you've taken up cross posting it.

/golf clap

This is the rant board, Regnon had a rant about clerics carrying their crusade to other class boards, and he posted it. What's the problem? At the very least, it's a relevent follow-up observation for a few previous threads here.

Don't complain about someone wasting bandwidth when your complaint does exactly the same thing. What you said just boils down to another "whining about whining" post, without any contribution to the topic.

Regnon: Apparently trying to convince the OTHER priest classes that they are underpowered has come to a halt so now they are attempting to convince everyone else.

I think if clerics realized how most other classes perceived them, they'd keep discussions between themselves and Sony, as discreetly as possible. They're not going to garner much sympathy on other boards with statements like "Sometimes I can't get a group!" .. when the folks they're addressing have more difficulty in that department than clerics do.

~Firemynd

Fenlayen
07-31-2004, 03:28 PM
Don't complain about someone wasting bandwidth when your complaint does exactly the same thing. What you said just boils down to another "whining about whining" post, without any contribution to the topic.


I'm sorry was there a topic ?

Just seems to another cleric bashing thread.

Wahhh my class has more issues than your class waahhhhhhhhhh about sums it up.
:boohoo:

Swiftfox
07-31-2004, 07:45 PM
At this point .. Just unnerf my friggen charm. Boost shaman heals to be viable secondary healers... then stfu!

Was in a group the other day and I said "See druids can be decent dps ; )"
Reply I got was .. You're kidding right?

Nother cleric friend in raid was sending me tells .. "Oh I really need my res stick, without it I'm about as useful as a druid."

/em spits

Shadowfrost
07-31-2004, 08:36 PM
Jesus Christ, what a stupid crosspost.

Since you bring the subject up: After 3 pages of posts from rangers saying that clerics shouldn't be fixed, I couldn't ignore the stupid thread any more and I went over to make my case. If rangers posted a 3 page thread on why druids shouldn't be fixed, you lot wouldn't be delighted either, right?

Tiane
07-31-2004, 09:11 PM
No, but we're used to it by now, and by and large dont go posting our class agendas on other class message boards 8)

Islington
08-01-2004, 06:14 AM
You guys are silly.

Aidon
08-01-2004, 07:21 AM
We've got plenty of bandwidth, Regnon, don't sweat it ;)

Launie
08-22-2004, 02:34 AM
Gonna have to go with clerics on this one /shrug. Who better knows what a cleric needs than a cleric? Most every other class thinks druids are over powered with our diversity and should be nerfed. We know that there are changes that could make our lives easier. As with every class.

No clue why people insist on boosting another class to justify the needs of their own. Why is the ranger posting what a cleric does or doesnt need? Makes no real sense to me, nor does hijacking it to slam Shadowfrost. Not that I have always agreed with her but what is the big deal about her defending her class there?

Nimchip
08-22-2004, 04:45 AM
You know what I laughed about. They say we're gonna be better healers. WTF did people decide to go bang their heads in a wall or something? When did we ask for "better" heals? Did I miss that somewhere? I thought we were getting some improvements in some spot/blast heals and that's it...

Lets say A_cleric_01 and A_druid_02 have exactly the same healing power. I mean blast heal, CHC. A group is looking for a healer. They see these 2 LFG. What will they choose? The one that can EXP rez if someone dies, the one that can div-arb if crap is hitting the fan? The one that can DA himself? The one that can endure a mob hitting on him because of higher AC? The one that can group heal? Or will they choose the other one that can.... heal? Cause in high end grouping encounters im sure as hell that no druid will dare change targets to dot or nuke. Oh wait that's right... we can port, but if exodus is down, what will be useful in an emergency situation? Evac? Hi!!!! with mobs hitting with what they hit for in GoD you'll be lucky you get 1 second off Evac.

I don't know but it looks to me like choosing A_cleric_01 is better and "safer" like it CURRENTLY is ... except our heals can't compare to them. The point is: YOU WILL STILL FASTER/MORE GROUP INVITES THAT SHAMANS AND DRUIDS. There is nothing that they will add (to druids and shamans) that will threaten this.

katahn
08-25-2004, 01:24 PM
You know what I laughed about. They say we're gonna be better healers. WTF did people decide to go bang their heads in a wall or something? When did we ask for "better" heals? Did I miss that somewhere? I thought we were getting some improvements in some spot/blast heals and that's it...

Actually its not druids that I know of that have clerics nervous about this, its a combination of "in the field" observations and various things the folks in the EQ1 Dev team have said regarding wanting more of a "healing parity among the priests." Most everywhere I use cheal, I use it for between 3-5khp healed, outside of that I need to use my spot/blast heals, hots, and so on. The real concern isn't with druids being able to main heal, its with us wondering what we do for xp once that happens? I mean, while I'm not saying its a balance consideration, if a druid can't get a group they *can* solo, a cleric that doesn't get a group gets to play an alt. :/

So the "clear second role" is really a catch-phrase meaning "please Devs, expand us in non-healing ways so we can remain competitive for groups." Thats all, well thats all once you strip away the class envy and the utter pointlessness in bashing another class for issues you have with the game as if the players of said class or the community they form really has any say in what happens at SOE. :elfgrin:

Lets say A_cleric_01 and A_druid_02 have exactly the same healing power. I mean blast heal, CHC. A group is looking for a healer. They see these 2 LFG. What will they choose? The one that can EXP rez if someone dies, the one that can div-arb if crap is hitting the fan? The one that can DA himself? The one that can endure a mob hitting on him because of higher AC? The one that can group heal? Or will they choose the other one that can.... heal? Cause in high end grouping encounters im sure as hell that no druid will dare change targets to dot or nuke. Oh wait that's right... we can port, but if exodus is down, what will be useful in an emergency situation? Evac? Hi!!!! with mobs hitting with what they hit for in GoD you'll be lucky you get 1 second off Evac.

If by "high end" you mean GoD content, I assure you I go down faster than a drunken prom date if I get aggro. In fact, the only aggro have a prayer of evading with DB is yard trash, and thats kind of iffy. I'm not saying druids have it better, just that DB isn't as cool as you think in GoD at any rate.

I don't know but it looks to me like choosing A_cleric_01 is better and "safer" like it CURRENTLY is ... except our heals can't compare to them. The point is: YOU WILL STILL FASTER/MORE GROUP INVITES THAT SHAMANS AND DRUIDS. There is nothing that they will add (to druids and shamans) that will threaten this.

Actually, during Shadows of Luclin, we see that groups will take a druid over a cleric if both provide equal/adequate healing for what is needed. We also saw in Planes of Power where once the Knights could provide equal/adequate tankability combined with superior aggro control, that warriors became unwanted. The pure truth of the matter is people have no moral qualms about dragging a body to a cleric and introducing themselves and asking for the rez by hailing said body. :( Failing that, just part the rez-bot by where the bodies pop out, click, then try again.

Nimchip
08-25-2004, 03:15 PM
Actually, during Shadows of Luclin, we see that groups will take a druid over a cleric if both provide equal/adequate healing for what is needed. We also saw in Planes of Power where once the Knights could provide equal/adequate tankability combined with superior aggro control, that warriors became unwanted.

During the Luclin era, if people would see a druid and a cleric LFG they would have chosen the cleric. If for some reason that cleric wasn't online and a druid got a spot.. or say the cleric was an awful healer... then that's different.

The real concern isn't with druids being able to main heal, its with us wondering what we do for xp once that happens? I mean, while I'm not saying its a balance consideration, if a druid can't get a group they *can* solo, a cleric that doesn't get a group gets to play an alt. :/

Soloing is not even an option right now. If a druid doesn't get a group, he logs. Solo exp is SLOW as hell (even quadding tables when they aren't camped ... so that's rare) and boring. I suppose it comes to this: clerics have been grouping all their levels so they see soloing as a new and fun alternative, while druids (like me) that have been soling 90% of their levels already see it as boring and slow.

If by "high end" you mean GoD content, I assure you I go down faster than a drunken prom date if I get aggro. In fact, the only aggro have a prayer of evading with DB is yard trash, and thats kind of iffy. I'm not saying druids have it better, just that DB isn't as cool as you think in GoD at any rate.

I know most clerics go down fast in GoD events, but the fact is that they can save the group from a lot of dangerous situations way better than druids can. You guys have the tools necesary to do this.

When I say DB I will take an example of a Tipt expedition i took with a cleric and some people. Back when it was hard and we were reflagging people, this cleric made a corpse and he dragged it all the way up to the boss room. He explained to me that if crap hit the fan, he could DB and divine rez to the corpse (the corpse being in a safe area inside the room) and he would lose agro, then proceed to drag the corpses and rez up... This is an awesome technique, and will save us from either breaking or having to fight up again.

I have no objections of clerics getting a secondary role. BUT, what bothers me is that they are currently trying to fix us and some of you guys have the typical -if-druids-get-this-we-want-that- mindset... posting in other boards and such, what's the deal with that? I'm sure that devs will listen to you eventualy, but stop hatling us because they are listening to us at this moment.

Let me repeat this just in case. I'm in no way angry at clerics because of their abilities, or their requests. I am bothered by the animosity they have taken towards us and shamans because of how the devs are trying to "fix" us.

Lasty, I am glad that for once a civilized cleric posted hehe and this didn't turn into a bashfest like most PC threads.

katahn
08-25-2004, 04:29 PM
During the Luclin era, if people would see a druid and a cleric LFG they would have chosen the cleric. If for some reason that cleric wasn't online and a druid got a spot.. or say the cleric was an awful healer... then that's different.

Once again, the personal experience of *this* cleric and my cleric friends at the time directly contradicts your statement. While I'll accept your judgement of me as an "awful healer" I assure you many of the people of my class I was friends with at the time were top-notch clerics whom I admired a great deal.

I would log in, as a 53 cleric, and first run to Seb. Zoning in I'd find 3 or 4 other clerics all LFG and sitting hoping to be picked. Generally there would be some tank type there who would decide he wanted to "solo" the entrance frogs and when about to die would call out "heal plz" with the expectation the clerics would dutifully get up and do just that.

I'd sit there for a while, anon and roleplay off and LFG on of course, hitting the /ooc 54 cleric LFG from time to time, and get nothing. Then I'd gate out and make the run to the Dreadlands to catch the Combine Spires to the Nexus, wait for them, then wait for the port to Velious, then run to Velks, and repeat. I tried building groups without success, I tried soloing some even (it was ugly, I'll spare you the details.) During the entire expansion I made it to level 54 and that was with some pretty hardcore playing.

What "fixed" this was PoP which escalated mob power insanely and to the point where the high-powered heals of clerics were needed again. But to look at it now, you'd scarcely believe it. Clerics are most certainly no longer "mandatory" for any of that content. The reason was the nature of healing: a fixed need resource dependant on mob vs. player power. No class should have *ever* been balanced solely around healing, it was doomed to create these precise problems.


Soloing is not even an option right now. If a druid doesn't get a group, he logs. Solo exp is SLOW as hell (even quadding tables when they aren't camped ... so that's rare) and boring. I suppose it comes to this: clerics have been grouping all their levels so they see soloing as a new and fun alternative, while druids (like me) that have been soling 90% of their levels already see it as boring and slow.

I cannot and will not comment on druid soloing, and your comments to it as far as clerics miss the point entirely. Clerics believe soloing isn't as fun as grouping, many of us have other characters we play and enjoy being a cleric partly for the social aspects of it. Its nice to be needed after all.

No, the point is and was that druids *can* solo for xp that while it may seem "boring and slow" is vastly superior to what a cleric can do. Not only that, but those very same abilities enable a druid healer in a group to contribute in ways a cleric cannot in places where the healing demand is light. Not everyone xps in GoD after all ;)

I know most clerics go down fast in GoD events, but the fact is that they can save the group from a lot of dangerous situations way better than druids can. You guys have the tools necesary to do this.

Not arguing that at all, in fact it would be insanity for me to say druids are *as good* at healing bleeding edge content as clerics are. That is self-evidently not presently the case. The point is that druids are getting improved healing (a good thing) and I know healing itself is a content-vs-player defined need. You only need enough. Once you have enough, then the consideration becomes the non-healing contributions.

Remember, I'm addressing misconceptions of healing and being a cleric. I'm not questioning what its like to be a druid healer. I'm trying to point out why clerics are asking for non-healing upgrades.

When I say DB I will take an example of a Tipt expedition i took with a cleric and some people. Back when it was hard and we were reflagging people, this cleric made a corpse and he dragged it all the way up to the boss room. He explained to me that if crap hit the fan, he could DB and divine rez to the corpse (the corpse being in a safe area inside the room) and he would lose agro, then proceed to drag the corpses and rez up... This is an awesome technique, and will save us from either breaking or having to fight up again.

Not a bad idea really. Except not all clerics have Divine Rez, or could survive said aggro long enough to DB in the first place, let alone "box" their dragged corpse.

I have no objections of clerics getting a secondary role. BUT, what bothers me is that they are currently trying to fix us and some of you guys have the typical -if-druids-get-this-we-want-that- mindset... posting in other boards and such, what's the deal with that? I'm sure that devs will listen to you eventualy, but stop hatling us because they are listening to us at this moment.

Who said I hated you? Ok, I know you mean clerics in general. But please remember the last time druid healing was improved by SOE clerics got the hammer of 24 hour nerfing. Oh yeah, we got bash too, and version of yaulp designed to compensate for our total lack of melee abilities that we needed to cast every 4 ticks.

The fear expressed by such posters is "if we aren't adamant about wanting our fixes at the same time then we might not get them." I think you'll find at least a few of us who are saying "fix us (the priest classes) all, fix us right, and fix us at the same time" and not "fix us, then fix the others....maybe."

Let me repeat this just in case. I'm in no way angry at clerics because of their abilities, or their requests. I am bothered by the animosity they have taken towards us and shamans because of how the devs are trying to "fix" us.

There are druid hating clerics, there are cleric hating druids, there's an awful lot of that in MMORPGs to be honest I don't particularly understand it. The place to direct game imbalances that detract from your enjoyment are the people who make the game. Not at another class. But then again, for a lot of people, in particular a lot of forum posters in any forum, its easier to flame and criticize an easy target, namely some other group of players who will actually respond.

Lasty, I am glad that for once a civilized cleric posted hehe and this didn't turn into a bashfest like most PC threads.

Me? Civilized? Nah, you must mean someone else. :eek:

Tiane
08-25-2004, 04:57 PM
Well you criticize the Luclin era, while using a Kunark and a Velious dungeon as an example... That doesnt seem particularly relevant. There was little to no reason for any bazaar equipped hybrid or melee to bother with *any* healer in old content during Luclin. Even in some luclin content, for that matter. That was a problem, mostly in late Luclin, the era you describe (i.e. the couple of months after druids and shamans got their semi-CH and before PoP) and it didnt last for long. Those were the days of Shamans as king of the priests (druids have never held that spot), widely held as the best combo for any duo or addition to a group, because they could slow and, with Torpor, heal all the damage anyone was likely to receive.

It was a game-wide balance thing, it didnt last long, and it's hardly worth complaining about now. How do you think druids felt seeing all our melee/hybrid friends off soloing for nonstop AAXP in Fungus Grove or Velks, not being able to heal effectively for any content, offering poor dps because of poor mana regeneration and a lack of Flowing Thought in the game world (outdoor only Mask spells, no potc until well into the expansion.) Oh but we could solo! Where mobs werent root/snare immune like they all nearly seemed to be, either entirely or at random, and when you got one that was immune all you can do is just run. Thats assuming you could find someplace to do it that wasnt taken or being overrun by bards swarm kiting...

Luclin was no picnic for druids either. But it cannot be used as any sort of justification for poor game design 2-3 years later.

Firemynd
08-25-2004, 05:59 PM
But please remember the last time druid healing was improved by SOE clerics got the hammer of 24 hour nerfing.

This is precisely why cleric and druid changes need to be handled independently of each other.

Before Tunare's Renewal, there was a HUGE healing disparity, so much so that druids (one of the three pure priest classes) often had difficulty trying to main heal for exp content that was virtually trivial to other classes in their respective roles at the same levels.

This was a problem that needed to be corrected. However, devs knew clerics would only see the new heal as "omgzors another class is getting a bigger heal!!1!!!" .... so in their shortsighted wisdom, they rushed a few cleric tweaks (including a couple new heals) live, even ahead of the new druid/shaman percentage heals.

What they SHOULD have done was simply to release the new heals by themselves, explain the game/class balancing reasons for it, and give players some specific ideas of what they were working on for other classes - including for clerics.

Instead, the hammer was rushed through test to live, without the benefit of adequate testing and tuning and ample opportunity for feedback. As one might have expected, amidst cries of protest (mostly from the paladin community), the hammer concept was nerfed as hastily as it was implemented, with all the same wrecklessness.

Right now the game's content has once again widened the gap between cleric and non-cleric healing, to the point where it has become a very real playability issue.

I would strongly caution clerics against pressuring devs to "compensate" them for the measures they take to fix this problem (i.e. "if druids get this, we should get that"). Otherwise, you risk going through the same rush job / raw deal you got with hammers.

Once an idea hits live servers, it is exponentially more difficult to alter -- in both concept and application. REAL improvements and class balancing takes time; it does not come in the form of "compensation" on the heels of protest over legitimate issues being addressed.

~Firemynd

Fenlayen
08-25-2004, 06:14 PM
I would strongly caution clerics against pressuring devs to "compensate" them for the measures they take to fix this problem (i.e. "if druids get this, we should get that"). Otherwise, you risk going through the same rush job / raw deal you got with hammers.

Tell you what, Once we get the further improvements we were promised after the last change then we will happily discuss further druid improvments happening on there own in a nice sensible way.

We have been burnt before by SoE and we arn't gonna lay down quietly while they do it again.

Tiane
08-25-2004, 06:58 PM
Everyone's been burnt by SoE. Get over the martyr thing.

Nimchip
08-25-2004, 07:19 PM
I don't know. I was there at the Luclin era, I know what was going on. Yes I was main healing but clerics were still getting spots as normal. In luclin I grouped in ME and later in UP a lot... clerics were highly sought after. If none was available, then people would get a druid.

Islington
08-25-2004, 09:32 PM
Everyone's been burnt by SoE. Get over the martyr thing.
Why should we?

Scirocco
08-25-2004, 09:57 PM
Because it hasn't gotten you anywhere with SOE, and it evokes no sympathy from the other classes, all of whom have been burnt by SOE as well. :)

beasthealer
08-26-2004, 06:39 AM
All i know is that i can sit with LFG for hours and maybe get a tell or two.
I log a friend Cleric and i get tells even without going flg, I put lfg in Raid zone(PoE B ) on cleric and get 4 tells before i get raid invite.
so i do not see anything wrong in closeing this crazy gap.

Firemynd
08-26-2004, 10:13 AM
Tell you what, Once we get the further improvements we were promised after the last change then we will happily discuss further druid improvments happening on there own in a nice sensible way.

We have been burnt before by SoE and we arn't gonna lay down quietly while they do it again.

The reason you didn't get those improvements is as much the fault of impatient clerics as it was of devs' or other classes. Adding a percentage heal for dru/shm was only one phase of priest balancing, but it stopped short .. just like the some of the improvements for clerics that devs had been working on. We were all shortchanged in that deal.

But the term "burnt" is subjective. For years clerics have maintained a status of "absolutely required" for the game's best content, including raiding. Considering such content has always been tied to the best itemization and overall progression, clerics crying foul because players are able to use dru/shm for main healing in trivial exp content rather than sitting around waiting for a cleric to log on, is not going to garner much sympathy from other classes; I believe you'll find it has a somewhat opposite effect.

~Firemynd

Shadowfrost
08-26-2004, 12:06 PM
There's no point having this discussion in Unkempt Druids.

If it won't work on the PC, it won't work here. Enough.

Nimchip
08-26-2004, 03:19 PM
Discussion is the life of a msg board. Even if the post was intended to flame you Shadowfrost, we aren't really flaming you if you read the posts... so you shouldn't worry about it really. And besides, the topic will come up from time to time, there isn't anything you can do really. I believe that opinions should be expressed and not kept inside no matter what the topic or they will explode. I believe this is what happened in the PC forum, people were holding opinions down and when the board came out they just exploded in trolling and flaming, i'm sure that if PC forums were kept for a while, things might have cooled down a bit, but that's just my opinion.

Galadhriel
08-26-2004, 03:48 PM
... i'm sure that if PC forums were kept for a while, things might have cooled down a bit, but that's just my opinion.

Unfortunately, I doubt that things would have cooled down. A lot of people just go straight to the end and only read the last post before adding their 2 cp.
But if people want to discuss/vent, then Unkempt is the place to do it as long as the board's owner (and contributers) doesn't/don't mind paying for the bandwidth.
I was excited about the PC when it first started, but eventually it got too painful to read the posts and I avoided it like the Creeping Crud. A lot of interesting, constructive threads got derailed by a few vocal people.

katahn
08-26-2004, 10:11 PM
I remember Luclin differantly than you, because I'm not you. Ok axiomatic, I know. I mention Kunark/Velious dungeons in Luclin because they were *the* grouping spots for fast/easy xp. The xp model that awarded bonuses for "close to your level" arrived with PoP. Prior to that, the real differance between a dark blue 14 levels lower than you and one 5 levels lower than you wasn't worth the extra effort of killing them. So people swarmed Seb and Velks which also had dungeon xp modifiers and decent cash drops (Seb) or Shawl/tradeskill items (Velks.) This is what made cleric healing "overpowered", the popular xp spots didn't require it and there for the longest time wasn't enough people hitting the harder spots to support the population of LFG clerics. People who wanted to get xp but couldn't, since clerics suffer from one-note-itis.

I wish we could submit parses to the devs on our weaknesses, but outside of the ones we have, we cannot parse abilities we do not have. I do agree that SOE did a half-assed job "fixing" clerics with the hammer and such, I think the noble intent (sarcasm here) was to make sure that later druid/shaman improvements didn't cause cleric players to suddenly be unable to play or gain experience. Needless to say, it failed badly.

What hurts my class is that no one agrees as to what we should be given in terms of secondary roles, and SOE is taking their sweet ass time putting out the new definitions.

The Zarros "Manifesto" if you will is that all classes should have the ability to solo, group, and be wanted in raids equivilently to every other class for whatever they can do. They can do differant things, but they should be useful/valuable. For druids, since they get invited as healers, the logical place to go is upgraded healing. It also makes sense from a game balance perspective to fairly balance such a group-necessary tool across at least 3 classes, with secondary healers (ie. hybrids) able to work in pairs or trios as needed to do the same.

Then, clerics need *something* to be balanced against improved druids and shamans. The terrible thing is the class community cannot come to a consensus and then you ahve the clerics who cannot conceive of accepting another class as the healer, or of having something else to do, as it appears to threaten their self-esteem boost from being so in-demand for raids and such. Personally I'm more playing CoH than anything else these days, and looking forward to EQ2

Firemynd
08-27-2004, 03:08 AM
I don't see why anyone would look forward to EQ2 beyond its first 6-12 months. Remember, some of the people making longterm design decisions on the EQ2 team are the same folks who made them for EQ1. What may seem balanced and fair now, will eventually favor certain classes whose 'specialized' abilities end up being more necessary for content than those of other classes.

Also remember .. during the early times in EQ1, and during the first 20-30 levels, all classes could solo to some extent or another and soloing was seen by devs as a legitimate form of character progression. They apparently changed their minds about that in EQ1 .. and there are no guarantees they won't do the same in EQ2.

Seems to me that EQ2 is starting out a lot like the original did... the obstacle devs will face is that former EQ1 players are a bit more savvy, and a bit less likely to let themselves be sucked into another timesink-heavy game for the long haul.

~Firemynd

Shadowfrost
08-27-2004, 06:42 AM
Discussion is the life of a msg board. Even if the post was intended to flame you Shadowfrost, we aren't really flaming you if you read the posts... so you shouldn't worry about it really.

*grins*

For the record, I was far from worried about being flamed. :) I've been flamed far more thoroughly than this in my life, and I'm monumentally indifferent to the views of the Anti-Cleric Brigade.

The discussion had moved from the subject of that ridiculous Ranger's Glade thread - thank goodness - and turned to cleric/druid balance. I was acknowledging this change and making it clear that in my view, it's impossible to have a useful discussion on that subject in Unkempt Druids.

Islington
08-27-2004, 07:01 AM
All i know is that i can sit with LFG for hours and maybe get a tell or two.
I log a friend Cleric and i get tells even without going flg, I put lfg in Raid zone(PoE B ) on cleric and get 4 tells before i get raid invite.
so i do not see anything wrong in closeing this crazy gap.
I love this saying. Everybody uses it but never really goes into detail.

Yes, it's true. There are times (not always but there are times) when I will log on and get 4 tells asking if I'm LFG. 1 group is a bunch of 53's in POI, 2 groups are level 59/60 in Valor and the last group needs help killing her Epic mob. Of all these tells that we get bombarded with, only a select few are even worth considering. I get SO many tells from level 50 characters asking if I want a group it's kind of silly.

Ndainye
08-27-2004, 08:00 AM
I love this saying. Everybody uses it but never really goes into detail.

Yes, it's true. There are times (not always but there are times) when I will log on and get 4 tells asking if I'm LFG. 1 group is a bunch of 53's in POI, 2 groups are level 59/60 in Valor and the last group needs help killing her Epic mob. Of all these tells that we get bombarded with, only a select few are even worth considering. I get SO many tells from level 50 characters asking if I want a group it's kind of silly.

And you know what those level 50's don't even think a 65 druid is good enough to heal them. They don't ask a druid to heal them period.

You want true stories and details? When I played I had a cleric res bot that I often had logged on at the same time as my druid, sometimes she leeched sometimes she just sat bored cause it was easier to leave her in game. Never was that cleric publicly lfg NEVER! Often my druid main would be publicly lfg while my lower level (significantly lower level) cleric was just sitting in the same zone. I personally don't believe in /anon or even /role so both my characters would be showing their levels and classes. I've never not gotten a tell for groups on my cleric when she was logged in for more than 30 mins, often times she would get tells for groups from groups of my druids level (generally 5-10 levels higher than the cleric) rarely lower than the clerics level (though I did get many come res me in x spot tells from lower levels). Always my cleric would have /afk talk to Ndainye on. The number of times that after the cleric /afk ignored a group request that the druid was then asked to join the same group? 1. The number of times that the druid would recieve tells asking if the cleric would join the group? countless, to which I always responded no thank you but I'd be happy to join with my (appropriatly level/flagged) druid. The number of times the druid was accepted in those groups? twice.

This is of course coming from someone that can count on two hands the number of times she was asked to join ANY random pickup group when not /lfg.

Don't cry about the number of frivilous group offers you get, that won't wash here.

Shadowfrost
08-27-2004, 08:25 AM
That particular argument never fails to amaze me. The "LFG time for pickup groups" argument, I mean.

First of all, the basic premise is always exaggerated. The person making this argument will always claim that their cleric can't even remove /anon without getting spammed with group tells - ever, at any time of day. I suspect that this is probably because the people making this claim usually have clerics who are well under level 65.

The truth is that the usual time between sticking /lfg up as a level 65 cleric and getting a group tell varies depending on the time of day. I measured it once. If you don't put any conditions in your LFG window (and not putting conditions on it means you'll end up being asked to join LDoN Normals and BoT groups three times out of four), the average time between putting LFG up and getting a group tell was 20-25 minutes.

The key phrase in that paragraph is "depending on the time of day." If it's raiding time, there's generally a shortage of clerics for pickup groups, because guilds muster every cleric they can for the raid, so you can get a group tell inside 15 minutes usually.

If it's not raiding time, there's usually a surplus of clerics because raids require more clerics than xp groups do. At these times of day, often 25% or more of the lfg list comprises clerics, and the group waiting time goes up to well in excess of an hour. This is probably why raiding clerics perceive that they have problems getting groups.

Second, all this is further compounded by the behaviour of people who make pickup groups. Those people frequently don't bother sending tells to anyone else at all, until they have a cleric actually sitting with them. The result is that you get a tell to come and join some LDoN Normal or BoT group, and if you're bored enough to accept, you run on over there and find that you're in a group which consists of yourself and one other character. This one character is generally sending frantic tells to all the crowd controllers and tanks they can find on /who in the hope that they can fill the group before the cleric gets tired of waiting and logs.

So you're not LFG... but you're not doing anything productive for the first hour while the group gets rounded up. And when the group finally does get rounded up, I frequently find I have more hp than the tank and more AA than the rest of the group put together.

Nothing, nowadays, would make me happier than being able to see someone's AA count in /who as well as their level.

Anyway, the result of the whole LFG window process for clerics is the same as it is for druids: by far the fastest way to get a group together to do something productive is to ignoring the tell from the level 63 necro who wants to do HoH and put a group together yourself using your guild and friends list instead.

The other thing I'd say about the "LFG time for pickup groups" argument is that it seems very strange to measure class balance purely by how long it takes you to get a tell to join a pickup group. A lot of us, myself included, don't want to spend time in random pickup groups in the first place, okay? Such groups generally suck; we want to spend time having fun playing with our friends.

Anka
08-27-2004, 12:00 PM
Has this post gone full circle?

We start with a post about clerics gaining no sympathy on ranger boards and we'll finish with clerics getting no sympathy on the druid boards. I'm sure plenty of druids could disagree with *everything* Shadow posted above but it's a lot simpler to just say 'back of the line, clerics, back of the line' until a moderator closes the thread.

Islington
08-27-2004, 12:47 PM
<i>Nerfed. See rule #1.</i>

Regnon
08-27-2004, 01:44 PM
Your funny... :grin:

amazing how many post you make get removed for personal attacks... :curse:

wonder how long this one will last. :bonk:

Regnon
08-27-2004, 01:44 PM
bout 5 mins i think, might be a new record. :elfgrin:

Len the Druid
08-27-2004, 03:14 PM
"only a select few are even worth considering"

:dance: I :dance: F@#$(%G :dance: HATE :dance: CLERICS :dance:

This is the truth..from their lips..oh nos..your group is not uber enough for me..give me 5 minutes so i cant wait for a tipt group..

Give Clerics nothing. THEY ARE ALREADY ESSENTIAL.

Kerech
08-27-2004, 03:23 PM
bout 5 mins i think, might be a new record. :elfgrin:

Stormhaven is fast :)

Vowelumos
08-27-2004, 03:29 PM
Although Clerics do not have it as bad as they think (Nor do Druids or Mages, but thats another story), your title is certainly misleading. Shadowfrost did not start that thread or even respond to it for a very long time.

Everyone thinks the other classes are all so much better off than they are in EQ. The only class that really offers a noticeable difference in Power (accross the board) is probally the Beastlord (I can see the Beastlords lining up to flame now, but we all know that is just a defensive mechanism).

A lot of people have decided that their displesure with EQ is based on their class, when it is probally just the game as a whole. Most peoples LFG problems are not based on their class, but on their personality.

No every class is not balanced in every situation (And SoE was stupid when they made the statement saying they should be). But overall the classes all offer the same level of playability.

Ndainye
08-28-2004, 01:01 AM
Dang first time I get personally attacked on this board and I don't even get to see it :(

For the record Islington I'm so hurt by what you said to me, I'm sure I'll go have a good cry over being flamed by someone that not only doesn't know me but has never met me in game or in real life.

Islington
08-28-2004, 06:42 AM
Dang first time I get personally attacked on this board and I don't even get to see it :(

For the record Islington I'm so hurt by what you said to me, I'm sure I'll go have a good cry over being flamed by someone that not only doesn't know me but has never met me in game or in real life.
Crying over a video game? I think you're taking this game WAY too far.

Ndainye
08-28-2004, 08:55 AM
Obviously someones sarcasm meter isn't working :p

Eileah
08-31-2004, 01:13 PM
Most peoples LFG problems are not based on their class, but on their personality.
Hmm, so all of us that have more than one toon, like Ndainye and I somehow change personalities from class to class?

I too have other classes that I will have online at the same time (usually Chanter and/or Mage and/or Cleric) as my Druid and I can tell you that my Druid has received ~maybe~ two unsolicited invites to groups (in two and a half years), and those were pathetically below her level and ability. I have not even bothered with LFG on my Druid for a long time now. I only group/duo with friends because it is SO disheartening to go LFG.

But Chanter and Cleric will get tells for groups even before I am fully *ingame* meaning I show up ingame in /who all, but I am still seeing a loading screen. They never *sit* LFG for long, if at all, and it is still ME playing them, same person, different class. Don't get me started on the Mage.... Gimme gimme gimme....

I am not Sybil, I play all my toons with the same human personality behind them, I have a very good reputation on my server and I am skilled with all the classes I choose to play (I suck at melee).

Druids just don't get the same, or even close, grouping opportunities that other classes get.

Delores Mulva
08-31-2004, 05:15 PM
My main is a cleric. I wouldn't ask a druid I didn't know (key words, I didn't know) to heal a pickup group, as opposed to a cleric, because of my recent grouping experiences with alts and druid healers. Simply put, the druid healers refused to just heal and buff, and the groups had more downtime because of it. In my experiences, clerics don't screw around as much and waste mana on DoTs or nukes, likely because we really can't do either very well. :grin: As someone whose main is a healer and who routinely sacrifices what could be considered "personal fun" for group efficiency, I find this behaviour irresponsible and I don't want any part of it.

I will say that the druids who have buckled down and did nothing but their jobs were more than adequate for the job, and I'd gladly group with them again as healers. But they are the exception, not the norm. Look at the suggestions in the Epic 2.0 thread in The Circle, and how many of them have nothing to do with healing whatsoever. You've ruined your own lands. The rep is out there that druids hate healing, so why invite one to be a healer?

Delores Mulva
Lotus Cult
Quellious

Len the Druid
08-31-2004, 06:32 PM
Because I dont want to be a primary healer. I want to baby sit enchanters and clerics that over aggro. I want to snare mobs. I want to nuke and DS them. I want to regen my group over time and protect us from fire and ice.

PoP gave us the ability to MH trivial content. Whoop dee Do. That's not what MOST of us wanted and now the idiots with big mouths that got us MH capability are realizing that there's a reason people just bot clerics.

Every class except for chanters and clerics have been marginalized by class creep.
I personally dont want to see Clerics marginalized more. I want to see Clerics even more dependent on the classes surrounding them if anything.

But nothing is more irritating than clerics crying about their LFG waits...

Anka
08-31-2004, 07:05 PM
Simply put, the druid healers refused to just heal and buff, and the groups had more downtime because of it. In my experiences, clerics don't screw around as much

I think you're a little brave to post on a druid board that druids are poor players. You never know, it might not go down too well with the natives.

Delores Mulva
08-31-2004, 09:31 PM
I didn't say they were poor players. I said they weren't efficient players. Honestly, I can't blame them - if I could do a million and one things like a druid can I doubt I'd be thrilled with being told I would med, cast heals, and rebuff when buffs drop, and that's all I'd be allowed to do. But when I'm looking for a healer I want an efficient healer, one that's happy to be doing it. As Len just showed, there's a sizeable chunk of druids who don't want to play that way.

Nimchip
08-31-2004, 10:00 PM
I didn't say they were poor players. I said they weren't efficient players. Honestly, I can't blame them - if I could do a million and one things like a druid can I doubt I'd be thrilled with being told I would med, cast heals, and rebuff when buffs drop, and that's all I'd be allowed to do. But when I'm looking for a healer I want an efficient healer, one that's happy to be doing it. As Len just showed, there's a sizeable chunk of druids who don't want to play that way.

You're generalizing. I get called to a group, and I adapt to whatever they are doing. If i have to main heal (HAHA maybe ldon or earth) i will, if i have to nuke (HAHA yea) i will, if i have to do freaking 50 things at once i will. Of course i'm not offended by you saying we are poor players or inefficient players, because after all (and i repeat) YOU ARE generalizing. When you are looking for a healer, you are looking for a cleric, period. A cleric is efficient because of his spells, which are better tools for healing than any of the other priests.

If Len has the luxury to do whatever the hell he/she wants in a group then that's his/her problem. But I don't.. because you won't get Kodtaz, ikkinz, yxtta groups if you're a mediocre druid. Maybe LDoN and BoT /shrug.


Look at the suggestions in the Epic 2.0 thread in The Circle, and how many of them have nothing to do with healing whatsoever. You've ruined your own lands. The rep is out there that druids hate healing, so why invite one to be a healer?

The rep is out there that druids hate healing? What kind of comment is that? Is that why most clerics are mad at us for asking for healing balance? LOL.

My main is a cleric. I wouldn't ask a druid I didn't know (key words, I didn't know) to heal a pickup group, as opposed to a cleric, because of my recent grouping experiences with alts and druid healers. Simply put, the druid healers refused to just heal and buff, and the groups had more downtime because of it. In my experiences, clerics don't screw around as much and waste mana on DoTs or nukes, likely because we really can't do either very well. As someone whose main is a healer and who routinely sacrifices what could be considered "personal fun" for group efficiency, I find this behaviour irresponsible and I don't want any part of it.

If druids aint healing as main healers, then they are stupid or ebay.
If you think nuking and dotting is "personal fun": LOL @ YOU. "woohoo let me nuke and dot and let this groupmate die, SO FUN!!!!! WUWUW". On the other hand, if the dps is slow.. woudn't casting 1 or 2 nukes (aka personal fun) be part of group efficiency? And i repeat for the third time: you are generalizing. It seems that 3 or 4 really bad druids you grouped with is making you give up on all druids and call us all irresponsible.

Follun
08-31-2004, 10:09 PM
Simply put, the druid healers refused to just heal and buff, and the groups had more downtime because of it.

I will say that the druids who have buckled down and did nothing but their jobs were more than adequate for the job, and I'd gladly group with them again as healers. But they are the exception, not the norm.

Part of this problem is that, comparing the average druid (yes average, as in ~elemental geared, not the time+ geared), our heals simply aren't efficient enough to do anything but heal even in normal groups unless there is a beefy tank or insane dps. Healing with minimal buffing will probably drive the druid to the brink on mana, and nukes even spam heals can drive a druid oom faster that most people believe.

As far as main healing goes, I think just skimming through the posts can give somebody the general idea that druids despise the idea of main healing, and most would rather be secondary healers than anything. This is what the druid was made for, be flexible and be able to quickly fill in a spot at a call, and while not the most efficient at the task, a druid can certainly cover for any bad occurrences in the group. I think this is where the druid class needs to return, making the class more interesting and useful in a group, especially in harder content.

jtoast
08-31-2004, 11:09 PM
far as main healing goes, I think just skimming through the posts can give somebody the general idea that druids despise the idea of main healing, and most would rather be secondary healers than anything.I agree here. I can be main healer in some cases but its rarely my preference. If I wanted that I would have rolled a cleric.

I chose a druid because a long time ago when things went bad the druid was almost always the one to pull something out their butt and save the group...be it a root/heal/evac/....something.

*sigh* I miss those days.

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
09-01-2004, 12:53 AM
As far as main healing goes, I think just skimming through the posts can give somebody the general idea that druids despise the idea of main healing, and most would rather be secondary healers than anything.
I have absolutely no desire to be dependant on a cleric.

katahn2001
09-01-2004, 09:14 AM
Elemental gear is average?!?!?!? :banghead: :confused:

What about us poor non-elemental clerics? :rolling: What yall are calling "trivial content" isn't.... to me anyway. This is despite 65 levels and 90-some-add AA most of which invested into upping healing. :confused:

Launie
09-06-2004, 11:32 PM
Wow alot of gross generalizations and accusations being thrown around.

My main is a 65 druid and I have a 65 cleric alt. Here is my observations. Clerics dont immediately log in and have a group. Thats a very common misconception. I have sat for hours lfg or sat 5 minutes lfg. Clerics dont have it as easy as everyone seems to think.

To the clerics out there, not all druids hate healing. I will heal in exp if needed, if I have a cleric there I back up heal and nuke. Druids are a diverse class, not everyone is the same. Clerics arent the end all and be all of gods in the game. I have grouped with many of clerics that I end up spending half of my mana patch healing becuase they decide letting tanks get to 10% health in GoD is good mana management. I have had tanks send me tells asking me to patch heal with a cleric in the group when for no good reason clerics just arent healing. Get off your high horse already. There are as many bad clerics as there are druids out there.

The sooner everyone realizes that every class has their problems the better off we all will be.

Galadhriel
09-07-2004, 02:31 PM
I will say that the druids who have buckled down and did nothing but their jobs were more than adequate for the job, and I'd gladly group with them again as healers.
I am mainly addressing LDoNs as that is where I am most likely to be joining a pick up group vs grouping with guildies.
When a group asks me to be main healer, that is what I do. I will also debuff with Hand of Ro and snare (if there is no other snare class in the group). If I find myself consistently with 60% or more mana, then I will also throw in a nuke now and then - especially stuns if we have a mob that gates or CH's. I don't see any problems with this just as I don't see any problems with a cleric meleeing with their hammer as long as they make sure they have enough mana to heal the group when the leaves hit the fan.

The rep is out there that druids hate healing, so why invite one to be a healer?
Maybe it's a server thing, but I haven't gotten the impression that folks on my server think druids hate healing. Occasionally, an LDoN group will ask if I mind healing before they invite me to join them, but I think that's a reasonable question.

All of that being said, I do agree that clerics, enchanters and shaman (hey, for that matter warriors and paladins!) do have a valid issue in that they do not stack well in groups or that the impression is that they do not stack well. Many groups would take 2 druids but not 2 of any of those other classes.
(Actually, I do remember seeing a post on our server boards by a group of 6 clerics who did a successful LDoN adventure together. I can't remember the details of the adventure, though.)

jtoast
09-07-2004, 06:34 PM
(Actually, I do remember seeing a post on our server boards by a group of 6 clerics who did a successful LDoN adventure together. I can't remember the details of the adventure, though.)

Saw a post over on the BL boards that a group of BL challenged a group of clerics to see which could finish an LDON faster. Clerics lost by like 5 minutes.

Thats not bad.

katahn2001
09-08-2004, 01:45 PM
Saw a post over on the BL boards that a group of BL challenged a group of clerics to see which could finish an LDON faster. Clerics lost by like 5 minutes.

Thats not bad.

Depends on the dungeon, and depends on the buffs. The beasties would tear through stuff faster (and it would be slowed), but have fewer means of handling adds and no way of stopping runners really (Hobble of Spirits AA isn't really all that good.) But they have native mana regen and paragon, and if the pets do all the work they do have near cleric efficiency heals on their pets. If said pets are DPoC-focused, it gets even sillier. I've done the all-pet-group thing on my beastlord, its wild fun if people know what they are doing.

The clerics could only come that close in an undead heavy dungeon, and if they had outside manaregen buffs to compensate for very inefficient and resisted nukes. If they were meleeing, then it becomes a huge gear question, but if you had 2-3 clerics meleeing, using Marks, hammer-"pets", with the rest of the clerics alternating healing (and all alternating healing AAs and such) then they would be better at mitigating the downtime the all-beast group would encounter.

Thats just a quick estimation. I have 65 in both classes (only two as a matter of fact...heh) and my gut feeling is the clerics were probably pretty well geared and/or lucky, or the beastlords were trying to melee through the LDoN (stupid to do in an all-pet group).

Klaassikal
09-08-2004, 02:18 PM
I was on an LDON the other day with my guild and we had a 6th person who was not in the guild. this person took it upon him self to open after he thought he disarmed a trunk . we were all hit by a spell that was killing everyone fast i assisted the cleric in healing all were lvls 48 to 55. it was all myself and the cleric could do to keep everyone alive. as it was the cleric died because i ran out of mana. this was with no mobs on us luckly. just healing. i dont mind healing in a group when i have to but am better suited to snare dot and heal when the cleric is low on mana.

Delores Mulva
09-08-2004, 03:17 PM
Thats just a quick estimation. I have 65 in both classes (only two as a matter of fact...heh) and my gut feeling is the clerics were probably pretty well geared and/or lucky, or the beastlords were trying to melee through the LDoN (stupid to do in an all-pet group).

Or the clerics were doing AE killing. A DA'ed cleric can gather a lot of mobs, and with just the two 1 second casting time PBAE's a cleric gets the group could have done 7200 damage to every mob for 1000 mana each. The level 65 PBAE has a 3 second stun component, so most of the mobs would be locked down in case the clerics wanted to cast their normal PBAE spells to finish things off. The loose mobs would have a very difficult time trying to kill a bunch of clerics with Divine Arbitration, Supernal Remedy, Celestial Regen line, Holy Elixir, Bulwark of Vie, Divine Intervention, possibly all six had Time hammers proc'ing group heals, Touch of the Divine.... The only limitation is the lower end 1 second PBAE has a component that lasts one tick and blocks further casts of that spell from landing.

Hmm, that would be interesting. Two minutes to gather a dozen or so mobs, one minute to burn them all down, two or three minutes to med up and let the recast times on the stun PBAE recycle. That would average one mob every 30 seconds, which is about as good as a fast-pulling Normal group gets without doing AE. I bet you could make it even faster if, instead of sending out someone to pull, you just had the clerics hit Divine Aura or Barrier and run through rooms aggro'ing stuff until they had about a dozen mobs. Fun!

Stewwy
09-08-2004, 03:30 PM
Here's what I feel. The good druid is like any other good player - they do the job assigned to them. If a druid is asked to heal and doesn't do it, they are a poor player. I can two box the healing at any camp in Bot just with my druid as long as i am doing the pulling with my enchanter, and I am positive I could do it as primary. Stewwy has 23 AA's and FT1. If i am asked to be DPS, that's what I'll do, thought I'll watch the health of the group members anyway.

What's the point? If someone is asked to do a job and they don't do it, that amkes them a poor player, not a poor druid. There are alot of poor players out there these days because the hamster wheel spins so quickly and easily.

Launie
09-08-2004, 11:18 PM
I know I dont have the gear of a normal druid but honestly, i have nearly 8k mana when I am buffed. I group with tanks that have 12-13k hp. We chew through LDoNs very fast and generally the tanks need few heals. Do I main heal? Absolutely, on a regular basis, but I also keep buffs, regen, damage shield up. And yes I do nuke too. I am not invited as healer in these groups to sit around looking at my feet.

Launie
09-08-2004, 11:53 PM
Oh and these days on pure efficiency for most regular exp groups i would be choosing a shaman over a cleric or a druid. A well equipped shaman can slow, heal and add some damage to a group. Putting 2 spots of the group into one, add the rest as a tank and dps, far more efficient than we will ever be :)

katahn2001
09-09-2004, 09:28 AM
Or the clerics were doing AE killing. A DA'ed cleric can gather a lot of mobs, and with just the two 1 second casting time PBAE's a cleric gets the group could have done 7200 damage to every mob for 1000 mana each. The level 65 PBAE has a 3 second stun component, so most of the mobs would be locked down in case the clerics wanted to cast their normal PBAE spells to finish things off. The loose mobs would have a very difficult time trying to kill a bunch of clerics with Divine Arbitration, Supernal Remedy, Celestial Regen line, Holy Elixir, Bulwark of Vie, Divine Intervention, possibly all six had Time hammers proc'ing group heals, Touch of the Divine.... The only limitation is the lower end 1 second PBAE has a component that lasts one tick and blocks further casts of that spell from landing.

Hmm, that would be interesting. Two minutes to gather a dozen or so mobs, one minute to burn them all down, two or three minutes to med up and let the recast times on the stun PBAE recycle. That would average one mob every 30 seconds, which is about as good as a fast-pulling Normal group gets without doing AE. I bet you could make it even faster if, instead of sending out someone to pull, you just had the clerics hit Divine Aura or Barrier and run through rooms aggro'ing stuff until they had about a dozen mobs. Fun!

In practical terms I doubt that would work without very well geared and AA'd clerics. Surviving the pull with cleric class defense skills would be tricky, and then there's DA/DB being only usable every 15 minutes. Now while they could switch off doing that, cleric nukes, even the undead and pbaoe ones, are all magic based, and resists with that many mobs in tow would be a very, very bad thing.

Have any of you seen the speed with which 6 beastlords doing an LDoN pet group can chew through a normal? Its insane, so long as none of them are stupid and try to melee (the biggest problem with beastlords in pet groups, they wanna be tanks anyway). The kill rate is nuts, and each beastlord has heals that rival cleric efficiency for their pets, pet haste, pet proc buffs, and if they buy mage toys ahead of time, even more.... In fact, the only thing that would go through that faster would be a combination of 6 mages and/or necromancers, who can also dish out better distance DPS than a beastlord can, and can more readily afford (mages anyway) to chain-cast their pets if healing is impractical.

Then agian, 6 post-60 mages using WoX..../ewwww Mobs never move for being perma-stunned....

Delores Mulva
09-09-2004, 03:01 PM
In practical terms I doubt that would work without very well geared and AA'd clerics. Surviving the pull with cleric class defense skills would be tricky, and then there's DA/DB being only usable every 15 minutes. Now while they could switch off doing that, cleric nukes, even the undead and pbaoe ones, are all magic based, and resists with that many mobs in tow would be a very, very bad thing.

If you plan right, surviving the pull is easy. Have one cleric run ahead of the others, and have that cleric DA when there's enough chasing him. The mobs will attack the invulnerable cleric even as the other clerics move into position, so long as the other clerics do nothing to get aggro other than stand nearby (yay for first on hate list aggro!). The first spell that will hit the mobs will be the PBAE stun/nuke, at which point they're locked down. Resists aren't so bad against the mobs in a Normal adventure. You won't run out of DA/DB, as you've got 6-7 minutes per pull and it only takes 5 or 6 pulls to finish a normal slaughter.

Eileah
09-10-2004, 12:52 PM
Tell you what, Once we get the further improvements we were promised after the last change then we will happily discuss further druid improvments happening on there own in a nice sensible way.

News flash!!!

I don't give a crap about you OR your class, I care about MY class and being able to play this game to it's fullest.

The absolute NERVE you show in even suggesting that you should get improvements before you will be civil about our issues is appalling and selfish.

You, as a Cleric, have issues with your class, then take it to the DEV'S, there is NO reason at all to tie whatever you think needs to be done to the Cleric class to what WE think needs to be done to the Druid class.

I can't remember a time, ever, that Clerics didn't stomp their collective feet and pout because they wanted something in exchange for Druid *fixes*, in fact, I can't remember a time when Clerics didn't get *something* and Druids got less than they were supposed to, all in an effort to keep Clerics happy and/or quiet.

You want changes? Then look to yourselves and what you need or want, and take THAT to the Dev's, but leave us out of it please. If you can't make an argument based solely on the merits of ~any~ Class Vs. ability to equally enjoy/play the game then STFU and let those classes that NEED improvements to fully enjoy/experience the game make their case without interference and protest/whining.

Erianaiel
09-10-2004, 01:32 PM
I agree here. I can be main healer in some cases but its rarely my preference. If I wanted that I would have rolled a cleric.

I chose a druid because a long time ago when things went bad the druid was almost always the one to pull something out their butt and save the group...be it a root/heal/evac/....something.

*sigh* I miss those days.

Logically about one in every six players should be able to supply the healing need of a group. Given the current class abilities that means clerics, druids and shaman should equally be able to heal for any encounter. Ideally.

In reality druids fall short on healing in the most difficult encounters and shamans need a huge boost now that their primary combo is being phased out. On the flip side of the coin clerics do need something else to do besides healing. Not only because they, by the nature of their specialisation, make generalists impossible (which is inevitable when specialists and generalists cooperate), but also because they rightly fear that they would be out of jobs if the only thing they can do is not required at the specialist level.
Rather than DPS I would recommend giving them crowd control abilities, since that role is somewhat sparsely populated with only two classes, however that is something the clerics should talk about not the druids (after all we all hate it when others tell us what druids should be/get :)

Turning back to the topic of this thread... Given the progression of the game it seems inevitable that druids and shaman will become main healers primarily with an additional ability so they can complement groups. I can not see how things would progress differently given the difficulty of balancing encounters around specialists and generalists both at the same time. But then again, what do I know of these things...


Eri

Fenlayen
09-10-2004, 02:56 PM
News flash!!!

I don't give a crap about you OR your class, I care about MY class and being able to play this game to it's fullest.

The absolute NERVE you show in even suggesting that you should get improvements before you will be civil about our issues is appalling and selfish.

You, as a Cleric, have issues with your class, then take it to the DEV'S, there is NO reason at all to tie whatever you think needs to be done to the Cleric class to what WE think needs to be done to the Druid class.

I can't remember a time, ever, that Clerics didn't stomp their collective feet and pout because they wanted something in exchange for Druid *fixes*, in fact, I can't remember a time when Clerics didn't get *something* and Druids got less than they were supposed to, all in an effort to keep Clerics happy and/or quiet.

You want changes? Then look to yourselves and what you need or want, and take THAT to the Dev's, but leave us out of it please. If you can't make an argument based solely on the merits of ~any~ Class Vs. ability to equally enjoy/play the game then STFU and let those classes that NEED improvements to fully enjoy/experience the game make their case without interference and protest/whining.


Boo hoo my class is broken think I'm gonna cry

:boohoo:

You can't upgrade in a vacum, its leads to more issue than it solves. But I suppose you don't really care as long as YOUR class is the one being blindy upgraded.

Lets go over this again for the hard of thinking among us.

Druids/Shamans got better healing (which by the way I dont have an issue with), clerics got the hammer and the promise of further improvements.

PoN got the hammer nerfed within 24hrs because parses showed an end game (then) cleric out DPS'ing a lower lvl lower geared pally.

And clerics got the further promised upgrades..... Well we are still waiting.

Balance if such a thing can exist can NOT be done by giving one class upgrades without looking at the knock on effects on other classes, doesn't matter what class is being upgraded/fixed (depending how you look at it).

katahn2001
09-10-2004, 03:53 PM
On behalf of clerics I apologize for Fenlayen. :banghead:

Personally I think either expanding the CC role to include clerics or making "poofy the wonder pet" a real pet and scaled to at least shaman level if not a sort of mid-point between shaman and necromancer, is the way to go. Here's my reasoning.

Right now if we compare the intelligence and wisdom casters, it seems to be something like druid <-> wizard and shaman <-> necromancer. This is based on nukes/ports/snare (druid) and poison & disease dots/pet/life-for-mana (shaman). Admittedly its a very gross simplification, and breaks down in a few ways (druids get mage-like debuffing, necro-like dotting, etc. and shamans get enchanterish slows/hastes/etc.) but in very broad strokes seems the most logical comparisons to me.

That leaves enchanter and magician as the two remaining intelligence caster classes to potentially compare clerics too. Now I specifically discount any improvements to cleric melee or tanking based purely on the backlash encountered over the proccing hammers and particularly the nerf campaign by Paladins of Norrath for their nerf, not that they were all that amazing compared to say druidic soloing capabilities. (Not slamming druids, pointing out that it was supposed to be the cleric trade off for druids/shamans originally getting the iCHs, balancing our classes solo and group according to Rich Waters.)

The enchanter route is a very appealing one to consider IMHO. Crowd control classes are underrepresented in the high end, with only 1/8th the classes having these abilities universally. Adding a 3rd class would bring that up to 1/6th, which is about right. Better would be 4 classes for each role as I see it, meaning 1/4 of the available classes can tank, 1/4 can heal, 1/4 can do CC,and 1/4 can do DPS, leaving two spots free and clear, this being the EQ2 approach of course. The enchanter route also has some justification in cleric history in EQ, particularly since the original intent of stuns and root were as "poor man's mezzes" where it would be possible to stun/root-park adds, and where clerics could use atone and the calm-pacify line of spells to aid in single pulling.

The magician route has less of a historic base of course, barring our summoned food/water and hammers of course ;) Oh yeah, and Kunark with Poofy(tm). But providing clerics with a true pet strong enough for a cleric to keep alive by playing on our classes' core strengths: healing/buffing, gives increased soloability to clerics and gives a nice "bonus free damage" with a cleric in the group, just as groups get with a shaman using their puppy. Combine that with at a minimum upping the DPMana and DPS of cleric nukes (mostly eliminate the knockback and recast delay really), and perhaps adding an equivilent fire line, and you have a decent healer/buffer who also has good utility (rezzes) and decent enough DPS to at least be competitive in the healer role.

Like I said before, other popular options seem to be either improved melee (which I don't think is likely given the hammer fiasco) or improved tanking (I don't particularly think the game needs a 4th tanking class, and if we were to upped that much or even close to it, well members of both classes understand how well just healing yourself can be for holding aggro.... :rolling: I just have doubts it could ever be really balanced well. But that's my opinion, and my opinion and $5 gets you a Latte at Starbucks.... :thumbup:

Eileah
09-10-2004, 04:56 PM
Druids/Shamans got better healing (which by the way I dont have an issue with), clerics got the hammer and the promise of further improvements.


We get a needed, very much NEEDED fix to our classes and you whined and got a goodie, and by your own words you are expecting MORE!!!

When the day comes that our desirability and usefulness in a group setting in all content is even with other classes, yes including Clerics, then and only then can you ever come here and have anything to say about further improvements, until THAT time what we get is fixes to our class and our playability, and what you want is a couple goodies to soothe your ego.

Notice I did say desirability and usefullness, not to be the same as a cleric, but to be equal in value in our OWN right, nothing less is worth doing.

Your ego is of no value here or ingame and I for one will not be held hostage to it in regards to what my class should or should not get.

You obviously understand that if you whine to the Dev's purely on your own class merit for the things you want, that you wont get anywhere, because you already have desirability, and everything you want is for your ego, not to enable you to actually play the game. So you are left with trying to hold hostage anything that may happen to another class in terms of granting us more playability.

The basic difference is that you WANT things, whereas we NEED things.....

But you don't want to accept that do you? Because it would mean that you would have to be satisfied with what you have and we can't have a satisfied Cleric can we?

You will get no sympathy from most of us here, although I DO believe that the Cleric class could use a few things just to make them less boring to the player, I do not however think that it should be tied to anything done to Druids, its not the same issue.

When we are equal in desirability and usefulness THEN we can start comapring goodies for each class.... maybe...

katahn2001
09-10-2004, 05:05 PM
Actually Elleah, clerics don't have nearly the group desirability you imply anymore. Its not near as bad as Luclin was, but in all honesty clerics are fully replaceable in the majority of level 65 content these days. While my fellow cleric is being a trolling jerk, that doesn't mean the class itself doesn't have issues. If I am happy about one thing, its that the general level of cleric vs. druid rivalry seems to have died down, at least between here and EQClerics and that's a good thing. I don't know if its just been a trend, a lull, or if the mods here deserve a lot of kudos for nuking the worst offenders, but lets not stir the pot ok?

Eileah
09-10-2004, 05:30 PM
Katahn I don't agree with your desirability level, my experience has taught me that Clerics are not only preferred, but many times will be the difference between having a group or not being able to have one depending on what zone you want to exp in..

YAY me, I can heal in BoT why go anywhere else?

But, I also play a Cleric (and chanter and mage)..... And I personally know that there are very few times that I am not bored to tears playing her, CH rotation is probably the worst imo. But even in regular grouping situations I find myself wishing I could do something besides just heal/buff.

But, that doesn't mean that they should be tied to anything that is done to any other class, if something needs to be addressed, then address IT, on IT'S own merit, not by comparing the apples of boredom/singleminded-use to the oranges of functionality and usefullness.

Fix/tune Clerics, hey, my blessings for whatever you can pry out of the Dev's, BUT LEAVE US OUT OF THE EQUATION.

What we need is what we need, and the simple truth is that it should not be tied to anything else.

Fenlayen
09-10-2004, 05:36 PM
We get a needed, very much NEEDED fix to our classes and you whined and got a goodie, and by your own words you are expecting MORE!!!

When the day comes that our desirability and usefulness in a group setting in all content is even with other classes, yes including Clerics, then and only then can you ever come here and have anything to say about further improvements, until THAT time what we get is fixes to our class and our playability, and what you want is a couple goodies to soothe your ego.

Notice I did say desirability and usefullness, not to be the same as a cleric, but to be equal in value in our OWN right, nothing less is worth doing.

Your ego is of no value here or ingame and I for one will not be held hostage to it in regards to what my class should or should not get.

You obviously understand that if you whine to the Dev's purely on your own class merit for the things you want, that you wont get anywhere, because you already have desirability, and everything you want is for your ego, not to enable you to actually play the game. So you are left with trying to hold hostage anything that may happen to another class in terms of granting us more playability.

The basic difference is that you WANT things, whereas we NEED things.....

But you don't want to accept that do you? Because it would mean that you would have to be satisfied with what you have and we can't have a satisfied Cleric can we?

You will get no sympathy from most of us here, although I DO believe that the Cleric class could use a few things just to make them less boring to the player, I do not however think that it should be tied to anything done to Druids, its not the same issue.

When we are equal in desirability and usefulness THEN we can start comapring goodies for each class.... maybe...


Where have I disagreed with that fact that druids AND shamans NEED healing upgrades ?

What I disagree with is it happening in a vacum. If it does happen on its own without thought to other classes then the balance might be tipped to far.

And in one respect it is the same issue, When (and I do belive its when) druids and shamans get better heals meaning they can Main heal in most groups, what do the clerics do ? Grouping/Raiding is our playability we have no other viable options open to us. I'm not saying clerics need any major work now but SoE need to look at the effects off what they do.

And as to my ego and being held hostage :P damm nice line.

Ohh and the only reason we are expecting more is because SoE said there would be more.

Shadowfrost
09-10-2004, 06:17 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, I refer you to my earlier post where I said that if the Priest's Covenant failed, then there's no way we'll solve these problems on the Druid's Grove rant forum.

I urge you to drop this subject.

Eileah
09-10-2004, 08:50 PM
And as to my ego and being held hostage :P damm nice line.


/bow.. Thanks....

I didn't say you disagreed with Druids or Shaman getting do want them to be healing fixes, but you do want them balanced or weighed against goodies for clerics and I don't think thats right, logical or fair to anyone or any class.

IMO if you really are supportive of healing upgrades, then BE supportive and then see what actually happens.

At that point if you or Clerics in general feel the need to seek changes for YOUR class then I will be there beating the drum for you too.

But stop this tit for tat crap, its useless and illogical.

Ps.. why do my quotes not work /cry