it seems that existing focus item will not work fully on new lv 66+ spell..

Now all focus effect add a new line, which I think it means the effect will be reduced by 10% per level difference (of the spell - focus level). For example, a 40% DD focus item will only become a 20% at lv 70.,.. ie same as tribute.

This is very lame, so all the new focus people get in GoD suddenly become less useful. And GoD has been out for like half a year? It is stupid to see the top end focus effect in GoD reduced to tribute level iin merely half an year. It seems that the primary target of OoW is to waste our time to exp AND reequip ourselves.

Also this isno t fair that focus item is the only thing that will obsolete. A weapon will still perform the same no matter u are lv 65 or lv 70. haste is same across all level, and armor won't suddenly give you elss hp just because you level up. However why focus item must has its effectiveness reduce when you level up and sue a new spell? I don't think a new ewapon will make your existing haste become slower.

This will also reduce the desirability of new spell. The new spell is not good enough already, making existing focus not working for full will simply make the new spell become a downgrade instead of an upgrade. (do some math and you will see)

Anyways, this is only my speculation. I am not sure if that is the case. However, from the looks of it, existing focus effect is not gonna work on full on new spell. I rememver dev mention that they don't want to keep existing focus to work fully on new spell as well.

Well, kind of like how when PoP came out they increased VT foci to level 65 max, I'd expect the higher end GoD and maybe PoP foci to be increased as well.

Gotta keep moving that carrot...

Grats SOE on rendering once again a ton of their old content almost instantly obsolete (i.e. why bust your ass in PoP for level 65 focus items.)

OoW better have a crapload of great content for level 65-70 of all playstyles with matching level 5 focus drops or I forsee another exodus (I see another one coming anyway once WoW hits shelves.)

The more things change, the more they remain the same. We have found the hamster, and he is us.

it seems that existing focus item will not work fully on new lv 66+ spell..

What makes you think this? Or is this just a guess?

the new code/changes added to focus effects on lucy

This seems no different than when they put focus items in and the first level ones only work on stuff to a certain level and so forth. /shrug Focus items have been level specific since they were added.

One of the adjustments casters make is that we have to hope for or get new spells, and get new focus items, and balance using the two. If the GoD model for spells holds, a lot of us won't be getting new spells for a while because our guilds aren't raiding at the high end. If the PoP model holds, spells will start out at high prices and gradually drop as they become more accessible and more people have them.

It took a fairly long time for me to get enough PoP spells for the loss of my Obulus Death Shroud's focus to become an issue. If you do the math, then maybe you'll decide to use the lower level spells until you have new foci?

(I remember when, leveling up, I'd get a new DD or something, and the additional mana it took to cast it would be a huge adjustment for me. I think of focus items sort of in that way. But, given mana pools of even low end level 65s such as myself, they'd have to put in an incredible spell for me to want to use something that would be noticably harder on my mana pool at this point.)

Right now high end ( GoD ) level there isn't a lot of pp to make. If you are in Qvic or beyond you have the opportunity for the new armor which costs 10500pp per item to make. SoE is making sure money is spent. If it comes to having to buy spells I can only see it becoming harder to afford them.

However I would assume the spells would only be obtainable by raid forces.

There's plenty of money to make.. Kill 1 BOT named and you just funded yourself a full suit of Qvic armor :P

I have no problem making 2-3k off mob drops sold to vendors in a night, before selling named loot in bazzar. I guess god has less cash loots, but you can always backtrack and do chardok/hate/LoY/PoP etc for a night, to pad the bank account. :)

New focus effects that wouldn't break the old focus system:
Spell recovery time reduction
Spell overhaste
Spell min bonus damage increase (with a 10% min and 40% max, your spell will do 110% to 140% of normal damage)
Spell overcharge (increases both mana use and power of a spell)
Damage Over Time accelleration (% chance that two ticks go off in one. 10% DoT accel means the first tick can do double damage, but consumes two ticks of duration)
Random foci (This item has a 50% chance of being a +50% min +100% max damage focus, and a 50% chance of not working)

In Luclin, casters capped their FT. PoP era didn't add more FT or make old FT obsolete, it instead added focus effects to collect.

My big gripe is that unlike POP where VT had unique named focuses and so it was easy to bump the VT cap to 65.

Im not sure that it will be as easy to bump up time focuses.
Plus, Im not sure progression wise, Elementals will become obsolete. So if the focii on the elemental suit doesnt work, thats a problem too me.
Level 70s hunting over and over for stuff that wont work for them well bugs me.

And the real kicker. the one that will piss me off to know end. Is if Gates of Discord focii dont work fully at level 70. Considering OOW was only supposed to be the 2nd half of the Gates story, and thier PUBLISHED COVER STORY that Gates was meant for level 70 chars. That it will drive me nuts if they dont work.

I remember the same thing happening when PoP raised the level limit. The truth is though the only way they can increase the lifespan of EQlive is mudflation with the result of rendoring current content obsolete. Honestly though there's so much content now I doubt I will even bother with OoW and I won't bother leveling to 70. What do you need 70 for in any pre-OoW content? You don't. Now if you're in a guild that has exhausted Plane of time or GoD then go for it I guess but my guild has just gotten elemental acess and isn't really touching GoD atm. I'm going to switch to EQ2 though in 3 months so that's part of my perspective. EQlive is broken. All new expantions will mudflate and mudflate and render content useless and wreck immersion. Is it still fun? Sure it is! but not as fun as say in 99 or 2000. Velious and Luclin were really fun expanions. PoP started breaking the game I think. So yeah level 70 will render the current focus stuff useless just like woven grass armor is useless etc etc. I'm ignoring OoW completely, myself.

And the real kicker. the one that will piss me off to know end. Is if Gates of Discord focii dont work fully at level 70. Considering OOW was only supposed to be the 2nd half of the Gates story, and thier PUBLISHED COVER STORY that Gates was meant for level 70 chars. That it will drive me nuts if they dont work.

I thought GoD was supposed to be for L 67 characters, and you'd get L 70 in OoW?

What do you need 70 for in any pre-OoW content? You don't. Now if you're in a guild that has exhausted Plane of time or GoD then go for it I guess but my guild has just gotten elemental acess and isn't really touching GoD atm.

Get L 70 so you don't need to hit every elemental god and loot-dropping mini 10 times personally to gear up for Time.

Get L 70 so your first Rathe encounter doesn't take 8 hours.

Get L 70 so you don't have to gear up fully in Time gear to do GoD.

I wonder if they'll make various focus effects decay slower than others, or make some go up to L 66-68?

I am looking at the changes on Lucy... And Elty is assuming a LOT of things. For all we know, it may be a purely internal change, not affecting one iota the functionality of the focus. Or it could mean that the lower value of the focus is raised from 0 to 10, making for example increased damage 4 increase nuke damage 10-20% instead of 0-20%. Or it could mean a number of things.

Instead of complaining on a pure speculative rumor, try and see what it truly means...

Callahad

Well not that it's any more solid but I asked a friend that works at SoE about this and he had this to say:

1) the declining percentage system is what they're testing now but it's by no means fixed - especially the exact percent of the decline per level

2) the declining percentage system was seen as a compromise to players - originally all existing focus effects were going to hard cap at 65 inc. Vengeance etc

3) It wont be "too hard" to come by 15-20% level V foci (so at lvl 70 the equivalent of the GoD foci), but yea - you'll have to work to get 30-40% lvl 70 Foci.

Any reduction in base focii should cause the value of Ornate to drop substantially. Other than the focus effects (the only MP4 focus in the game for many casuals is their ornate) ornate armor is crap. If that armor no longer really works on new spells it's hardly worth bothering with.

I fail to see a problem here. By the time you catch a sniff of your level 70 spells, you'll be completely regeared anyhow.

LoL so true Loth! In fact I bet it's a year before 20 percent of the player base has all their level 70 spells.

The availablity of focuses in the endgame already leaves a fair bit to be desired. They shouldn't be making old needed focuses obsolete.

I think the problem with this though is even if "new focuses" are available.
It's not going to be easy to get new focuses that replace the stats on raid gear.

I don't want some "tier 1" omens focus item with 75-125 hps/mana when Im living in items with 175-245.

The options on how to deal with this are of course extremely varied. The one which I would chose is keep the current limit of 65 to VT and EP-level focii, with that decay they are supposedly testing. And raise the limit to 70 for Time-level and GoD-level focii. It really makes no sense for the current GoD hard-earned focii to not be fully functional in OoW. Even Time...

Callahad

It really makes no sense for the current GoD hard-earned focii to not be fully functional in OoW. Even Time...

Surely you're reasonable enough to concede that not everyone who's been through Time/GoD worked hard to "earn" their current focus effects. I mean really, let's be honest about it. Raid leaders do most of the actual work, and for the most part everyone else shows up and follows a few basic instructions.

And no, I'm not knocking big guilds or high-end raiders, just pointing out that nothing in EQ is exactly rocket science .. so let's stop with the melodrama of how "hard" we're working okay?

Imagine the frustration of people who spend just as much time and energy as hardest core raider, but whose playtime is limited to off-peak hours or who are in smaller guilds that rely upon higher level spells and abilities from new expansions to do content that bigger guilds finished a year or two ago. They'll be lucky if they get *any* of their 66-70 spells for several months after OoW goes live, let alone the corresponding focii for those spells.

I certainly wouldn't call it more of a hassle for high end raiders to "re-gear" themselves than it will be for the folks in guilds who can't just plow through the newest content. Far as I'm concerned, either let all level 4+ focus effects work with 70th level spells, or let none.

~Firemynd

Getting god and time focuses is more a pain in the ass than hard earned but with IV being a "standard" I think they are easier to get / balance since it's easy to toss them onto anything. Plus you have to consider that they're available from tribute and playermade items (as rare as the parts may be). If that carries over into oow I don't think it'd be too bad.

For the higher end foci it sucks b/c the stuff currently just isn't that available. (ie: in god I think there are 2options for quickening of mith .. 1 clashes big time with another focus you need the other is from content that usually gets left behidn For complete buff ext. there's 1 option and it's both rare and on something that normally isn't a target. There's no dot/debuff ext. focuses I think. etc.) So if the focuses you have stop working then you're most likely **** out of luck for at least some time if not completely.

Don't think you can just say I'll just re-gear and get resituated. I know a good chunk of our healers are still holding on to their fr belts and think 1 or 2 was relying on vt lvl spell haste b/c it's not available elsewhere.

For the higher end foci it sucks b/c the stuff currently just isn't that available. (ie: in god I think there are 2options for quickening of mith

Sucks for people who can't access a zone where those nicer focus items drop, wouldn't you say? Sucks that they're limited to regular old 'spell haste 4' and even that is a pain in the butt for them to get and it will be on an otherwise mediocre item. Or worse, they have to live in Ldon long enough to buy a spell haste 4 augment, which will eat an aug slot that folks in bigger guilds are able to use for hp/mana, on top of already being an item 2 or 3x better for stats and have other effects included.

It's really about opportunity. If you are in a PoTime/GoD raiding guild, you will get your OoW 66-70th level spells *and* the newest/best focus effects long before the folks in smaller raiding guilds. As a bonus, they will probably be dumping their banks into your lap for trinkets you find in OoW that their guilds can't help them get.

That's the reality of the situation, repeated every time a new expansion is released. Given how this game -- both content and itemization -- is so heavily slanted towards larger raiding guilds, I just don't think they should be entitled to keeping full use of their existing focus effects throughout new spell levels.

I'm maintaining my position on this one. Either raise all "works on spells up to 65th level" focus to 70, or raise none. Sucks? Yeah, timesinks usually do. But at least it's fair.

~Firemynd

Should probably clarify that I really don't care one way or the other if they add lvl 5 foci or extend lvl 4 one way or the other but ..

Sucks for people who can't access a zone where those nicer focus items drop, wouldn't you say? Sucks that they're limited to regular old 'spell haste 4' and even that is a pain in the butt for them to get and it will be on an otherwise mediocre item.
Sorta yeah but they hold some responsibility to that... like you said eq isn't rocket science. It is very possible to go very far while not joining a raiding guild. Your progression normally stops where a raid target mob is an absolute must to progress further... and even then a lot of servers have casual raiding systems I think that let you get past those roadblocks (on drinal it's possible to get flagged for time while guilded with ppl that are farming hot). Which lvl of the game you choose to play at is your choice and normally not the fault of anyone elses.

2 things I think you're not considering about lvl 4 focuses is that they generally are easier to get. You can't really 1 grp any of the time+ lvl focuses. You can 1grp and even solo for the lvl 4 ones.. plus anyone can just buy them thru tribute. And the items with the focus aren't really mediocre at the non raiding lvl. Items like ele ceramic stuff, ornate armour, poi helmet and shoulders, ferubi range item etc. while not the best are certainly very decent items on their own with out the focus and very comparable over all to other items that are available to the non raiding player. If you're not happy that with 85hp/mana instead of low 100s or 125 instead of low 200s you need to move into raiding.

Also, just like the higher lvl stats aren't really needed for non raiding content, the higher end focuses aren't really needed either.

It's really about opportunity. If you are in a PoTime/GoD raiding guild, you will get your OoW 66-70th level spells *and* the newest/best focus effects long before the folks in smaller raiding guilds
I agree that needs to be balanced better in general but going on the assumption that oow will be more like pop I don't think it will be **that** bad. Minus runes, spells were not that hard to get in pop while still in a smaller guild if you have the capability of just playing your toon well. And did have a decent selection of smaller events that were fairly fun to do.

About the focuses you probably shouldn't assume that ppl will be able to upgrade that quick. Think for my focuses 5 are from pop, got 0 from ldon, 2 that are ldon/pop lvl from early god, and 3 that are god bests. I personally faired well on the spells but think those sucked in general for everyone, there's still a lot of ppl who are missing some of the more basic spells still 6months in.


Like I said though, either way on the lvl 4 stuff *shrug* pop+ foci need to extend though since they, by their nature of being the better/best foci, will not be easily replaced by the time we start getting spells and ppl will be relying on them for some time into the expansion.

Surely you're reasonable enough to concede that not everyone who's been through Time/GoD worked hard to "earn" their current focus effects. I mean really, let's be honest about it. Raid leaders do most of the actual work, and for the most part everyone else shows up and follows a few basic instructions.

And no, I'm not knocking big guilds or high-end raiders, just pointing out that nothing in EQ is exactly rocket science .. so let's stop with the melodrama of how "hard" we're working okay?

And here we go with an uber vs casual debate... again. For the record, the fact of the matter is, it takes dedication to reach PoTime+. You need to get to 65, show a certain play-time, get usually 100+ AAs, meet some gear standard. You seem to think that getting there is a breeze in the park...

Btw you'd be surprised how many peeps even fail to follow basic instructions...

Melodrama? Quit BSing will ya? *You* are the one bringing this up, not me. You stuck on 2 small words in my post that were only secondary to the meaning.

I still think what was said in my post, I'll refer everyone to it instead of what followed it...

Callahad

Callahad:And here we go with an uber vs casual debate... again.

Well what did you expect? Over and over I've heard high-tier raiders complain how unfair it would be if *their* focus effects weren't extended to work with OoW spells, but seem to think it's fair that folks lower in content progression should have to completely regear to get (lesser) focus for new spells... on top of the difficulty they're likely to have just getting those spells.

Mellen: 2 things I think you're not considering about lvl 4 focuses is that they generally are easier to get. You can't really 1 grp any of the time+ lvl focuses. You can 1grp and even solo for the lvl 4 ones.. plus anyone can just buy them thru tribute.

What you're not considering is that most people who are not Time geared are generally not '1-grouping' mobs that drop focus4 items, much less soloing them. What may seem "easy to get" for you may not be so easy for others. You assume it is, just as you assume it will be easy for them to get focus5 effects for OoW spells.

And using tribute for focus on a daily basis? Tribute is great for getting some indirect benefit from items sitting in bank that you don't have time to sell, or items picked up while raiding and hunting that have little bazaar value. However if you're farming stuff specifically for tribute points to maintain focus effects, you're wasting time. How can you justify thinking such a timesink is OK for casual players and lower tier raiders, as a substitute for decent itemization?

That's really the basis for my complaint and for my opinion on focus. It has nothing to do with anyone's personal playstyle, uber or not. It has everything to do with SOE making one particular playstyle so much more rewarding. It's also not about "choosing" to join a large raiding guild. I don't think people should be expected to abandon the guilds they've called home for the past 4-5 years just to progress.

Unfortunately, EQ is on a very slippery slope with people who are fed up with the continued disparity.

~Firemynd

What you're not considering is that most people who are not Time geared are generally not '1-grouping' mobs that drop focus4 items, much less soloing them. What may seem "easy to get" for you may not be so easy for others. You assume it is, just as you assume it will be easy for them to get focus5 effects for OoW spells. I'm going to call BS on this. Every DAY there are hundreds of people packed into BoT where Ornate drops off of Named mobs. Most of these Named are easily one groupable. While Tactics may not be as popular as BoT, plenty of people are over there too killing the minis. And while it may be uncommon, there are plenty of CASUAL people in the Tower of Solusek Ro and even the Elementals on Erollisi Marr. My Wizard got herself flagged for the basic EPs 100% through pickup raids and a bunch of other people did too. So I'm calling horse s*** on your statement.

Callahad:

Well what did you expect? Over and over I've heard high-tier raiders complain how unfair it would be if *their* focus effects weren't extended to work with OoW spells, but seem to think it's fair that folks lower in content progression should have to completely regear to get (lesser) focus for new spells... on top of the difficulty they're likely to have just getting those spells.

Mellen:

What you're not considering is that most people who are not Time geared are generally not '1-grouping' mobs that drop focus4 items, much less soloing them. What may seem "easy to get" for you may not be so easy for others. You assume it is, just as you assume it will be easy for them to get focus5 effects for OoW spells.

And using tribute for focus on a daily basis? Tribute is great for getting some indirect benefit from items sitting in bank that you don't have time to sell, or items picked up while raiding and hunting that have little bazaar value. However if you're farming stuff specifically for tribute points to maintain focus effects, you're wasting time. How can you justify thinking such a timesink is OK for casual players and lower tier raiders, as a substitute for decent itemization?

That's really the basis for my complaint and for my opinion on focus. It has nothing to do with anyone's personal playstyle, uber or not. It has everything to do with SOE making one particular playstyle so much more rewarding. It's also not about "choosing" to join a large raiding guild. I don't think people should be expected to abandon the guilds they've called home for the past 4-5 years just to progress.

Unfortunately, EQ is on a very slippery slope with people who are fed up with the continued disparity.

~Firemynd

My complaint though is that Specifically all Gates Items should work on 70.
Gates was supposedly created and balanced on level 70.
There are focus effects that casuals can get Level 4 in gates too that would need to be changed to 5. Like Spell Haste and ID augs from sewers.
Or the IH4 from the Poxx guy in barindu. Same for Gates raids.
IE: Since gates was designed for 70, you can't believe that any focuses that woulda been designed for gates wouldnt fit being designed for 70.


Time could be argued to get same treatment as Vex Thall. Time was the "end game" zone designed for 65 in a world about to go to 70. Vex Thall was the "end game" zone designed for 60 in a world that went to 65.

BUT the problem is, unlike VT they didnt give these effects new unique names. So Im not sure how they could do it. Well yeah I am, they could reitemize/change the effects on them.

Sewer's Spell Haste 4 could become Spell Haste 5
a Quickening of Mithaniel from Gates/Time could become Speed of Mithanel

Just a heads up...

Isling - on the rathe server, the RTA prohibits any guild from running open raids on anything. Last night, there was an open raid going on for Behemoth when a few RTA reps stepped in and said "Anyone who participates in this will have their guild blacklisted from all rotations" - Perhaps on your server people have a chance to advance without being "uber" - but it certainly (without a doubt) doesnt apply to us on the ol ` rathe.

Well what did you expect?

I expected it... But don't EVER suggest I started it, and call me melodramatic. *YOU* are the one who started the debate, accept the responsibility of it.

Over and over I've heard high-tier raiders complain how unfair it would be if *their* focus effects weren't extended to work with OoW spells, but seem to think it's fair that folks lower in content progression should have to completely regear to get (lesser) focus for new spells... on top of the difficulty they're likely to have just getting those spells.

What would be totally ridiculous to me is that top of the line gear from the latest expansion, some of it that *no one* has seen yet, would suddenly become obsolete. Little reason to progress to Time anymore, little reason to progress through GoD. A whole slew of goal zones suddenly becoming empty and undesired... From the point of view of health of the game environment, it would be a disaster.

And using tribute for focus on a daily basis? Tribute is great for getting some indirect benefit from items sitting in bank that you don't have time to sell, or items picked up while raiding and hunting that have little bazaar value.

Others have answered well already.

I don't think people should be expected to abandon the guilds they've called home for the past 4-5 years just to progress.

That's another beast entirely, one that has little to do with focus effects, other than they are on items people want to progress to. I agree with you, but you seem to assume no steps have been taken in this direction. Raids sized to 54, and should remain a constant. Better flagging process. Supposedly one locked-to-high-end zone in OoW....

Callahad

Surely you're reasonable enough to concede that not everyone who's been through Time/GoD worked hard to "earn" their current focus effects. I mean really, let's be honest about it. Raid leaders do most of the actual work, and for the most part everyone else shows up and follows a few basic instructions.

You are WAY off base here. Don't tell me that me and my guild didn't "earn" our current focus effects. We have worked LONG and HARD for every flag, every kill and EVERY piece of armor. We play for HOURS at night, redoing content until we learn the proper techniques (and dealing with MANY wipes along the way). BS that raid leaders do all the work, EVERY single player at a raid must do his/her job or the raid isn't going anywhere. A few basic instructions? We ALL know our jobs, we've learned them from LOTS OF HARD WORK. It's quite obvious to me that you've never stepped foot inside Time or GoD. If you had you'd know how ridiculous your statement is.

And no, I'm not knocking big guilds or high-end raiders, just pointing out that nothing in EQ is exactly rocket science .. so let's stop with the melodrama of how "hard" we're working okay?

Actually that is exactly what you're doing, knocking big guilds AND high-end raiders. Nothing is rocket science? you think you can march into a high level zone and just zerg and heal? You have no clue. And YOU are the one spewing melodrama, poor you, you can't be a high end player so you want to punish them?

Imagine the frustration of people who spend just as much time and energy as hardest core raider, but whose playtime is limited to off-peak hours or who are in smaller guilds that rely upon higher level spells and abilities from new expansions to do content that bigger guilds finished a year or two ago. They'll be lucky if they get *any* of their 66-70 spells for several months after OoW goes live, let alone the corresponding focii for those spells.

Imagine the frustration of people who have worked their butt off for high level focii and now have to regear. Do you have any idea how long it takes to fully regear about 100 people? A LONG time. I understand not everyone can be a hard core raider, and that some people are in smaller guilds etc. etc. but why should people who ARE able to be in high tier guids, be held back because of that? I was totally agreeing with people who said that even the level IV focus effects should have some kind of value at level 70, even if reduced by a lot. And the ele ones and VT ones also. They were being reasonable...you my friend are being angry and resentful.

I certainly wouldn't call it more of a hassle for high end raiders to "re-gear" themselves than it will be for the folks in guilds who can't just plow through the newest content. Far as I'm concerned, either let all level 4+ focus effects work with 70th level spells, or let none.

~Firemynd

Plow through new content? Maybe the top EQ guilds across all servers can do that but most can't. I am in a high tier guild but we don't plow through anything. It takes work and lots of failures in order to learn the encounters and play them right. I'm rather sick of all the attitude about high tier guilds. If you're not in one, you CHOOSE not to be in one, for whatever reason that may be. My gear is nice because 1) I have quested 3 items out of it which did not require a raid force 2) I have gotten pieces in (6) person experience groups to augment my armor 3) I've done tons of (regular 6 person) Ldons to purchase armor and augs and 4) I raid with my guild a lot and I have earned the rest. Anyone can do the first 3 of these. I don't hold my guild responsible for every piece of my armor. Maybe instead of being so angry and insulting, you could look into some of these alternate ways to get items and stop blaming high tier players for all your problems

The options on how to deal with this are of course extremely varied. The one which I would chose is keep the current limit of 65 to VT and EP-level focii, with that decay they are supposedly testing. And raise the limit to 70 for Time-level and GoD-level focii. It really makes no sense for the current GoD hard-earned focii to not be fully functional in OoW. Even Time...

Callahad

I think that would be a great idea Callahad, agree totally.

Wow. Where to start.

A 10% drop of the focus effect's total per level seems reasonable to me. It scales well for all foci without just killing the lower foci and keeping the higher ones still powerful.

People work very hard to get regular focus 4 gear, often just as hard as raiders who get gear of much higher quality. Their time is not worth less because they don't have friends who will get them into Time or Qvic.

Gear should never be so good that you won't ever want to upgrade it. A gradual reduction in focus effects as we level gives us a reason to upgrade. Items that people don't ever want to upgrade are broken. Imagine being level 52 and saying there is never any reason to get to 53. Gear is the same way, there is always need for improvement and continually adding % onto focus gear just keeps adding to a power divide between groupers and raiders that is already far too wide.

"LoL so true Loth! In fact I bet it's a year before 20 percent of the player base has all their level 70 spells."

20% of the player base will never see level 70. The majority of the player base at the time of the summit was between level 30 and level 50. This scailing solution helps everyone including those players with focus 1, 2, and 3 gear. It is a solution that helps the majority of the player base.

Hearing how guilds on the Rathe break apart alliances and open raids makes me sick. There is enough elitist snobbery and cool clubs in our world, must we have them in EQ too? Aparently so. If I were on that server it would be a pleasure to be blacklisted.

Most of this is hillarious. Personally I hope they bump the GoD focus effects to 70 and probably the time ones as well. espcially since they did bump VT gear up.

Now that being said, I belong to a high end raiding guild is a cakewalk. We normally field 45-54 on any given night. We are time capable, and have beaten Quarm. Yes, a big high end raiding guild can walk through most older content with ease. Most don't. The drops get to a point where they are not effective upgrades for a majority of the guild so those guilds move on to more difficult content. This means all new tactics as Sony has mudflated the numbers beyond imagination. So yes a Necro on our server can solo Trakanon, but he does not have any use for the drops from him outside of the Bazaar.

For those that think raiding itself is easy, I like to compare it to running a marching band. You have 50ish people out that have to remain in step with each other because if one person really screws up it throws the whole show. Maybe the individual steps are not so difficult, but with some raids lasting 6ish hours to finish correctly, stamina and attention become much more important than a 2 hour LDoN. Not to mention that you are dealing with 50ish people instead of 6ish.

LZ

You are WAY off base here. Don't tell me that me and my guild didn't "earn" our current focus effects. We have worked LONG and HARD for every flag, every kill and EVERY piece of armor. We play for HOURS at night, redoing content until we learn the proper techniques (and dealing with MANY wipes along the way). BS that raid leaders do all the work, EVERY single player at a raid must do his/her job or the raid isn't going anywhere. A few basic instructions? We ALL know our jobs, we've learned them from LOTS OF HARD WORK. It's quite obvious to me that you've never stepped foot inside Time or GoD. If you had you'd know how ridiculous your statement is.
I have to step in and agree with fyremind here.

Re-gearing would be a severe PITA but I think it would be more along the lines of time consuming and boring as hell rather than difficult.

EQ is NOT rocket science. On one of my accounts my 11 year old son has a Time enabled enchanter and my 8 year old has an elemental druid. My personal toons are only elemental because I have to work to support my sons habit..hehe.

Everyone has to know their job but the jobs themselves aren't difficult. I have played my sons enchanter just fine for him when Time raids went past his bedtime on a school night..lol.

Cleric Cheal chains, Druid Rampage chains, debuff, crowd control, off tanking, corner tanking,none of it is exactly new as we have been doing it in smaller groups or lower end encounters for years. I honestly cant recall the last time I encountered a mob that actually did something I hadn't seen before in one form or another.

There are a few basic raid skills that most of us learned way back in our Vox/Naggy days. Things such as listen to the raid/class leader, follow instructions, don't sit, etc. These skills are augmented by a few encounter specific add-ons (cheal chains, rampage tanking, etc)

I have raided and I have led raids. I promise, the only really difficult part of a raid belongs to the raid leader.

Raiding is several long, boring, repetitive hours(disagree?...ask a cleric on a Xegony raid), spiked with moments of excitement, but hard work?....no.

Re-gearing would be a severe PITA but I think it would be more along the lines of time consuming and boring as hell rather than difficult.

Questions are, would it be fun? No. Would it add to the gameplay experience? No. Would it keep people playing longer as opposed to quitting out of disgust and frustration? No.

It's a bad, stupid idea and it needs to be scrapped. Let focus 4 effects work to 70. If they up the limit to 75, you can make focus 5 effects for 70+.

Ok, let's say what you are saying is correct. BUT you must apply that to ALL levels of guilds and soloers to boot. So why are mid level guild people asking for their focuses to be raised too? According to you all raiding is not hard, neither is aquiring new gear so applying that across the board, the mid level guilds shouldn't have any problem either. I'm sad to say that I won't be back to Druid's Grove (for the 3rd time since I started my druid just after Everquest was released). I should have learned the first 2 times, but I have now. I thought it would be a group of like minded people who support each other no matter what their level, or what their guild status. I see it's not that way. All I have seen since I started reading it again is Uber vs. casual player and more anger and frustration than playing a game merits. If you all want to see it that way, whatever floats your boat. If becoming a high tier guild was that easy, I would expect that all of you would be in one.

Questions are, would it be fun? No. Would it add to the gameplay experience? No. Would it keep people playing longer as opposed to quitting out of disgust and frustration? No.I really don't think the whole "is it fun" argument has been valid for a loooong time when it comes to high end raiding.

Yes, the first time or two through content there is a sense of accomplishment but after that, its pretty repetitive.
If you all want to see it that way, whatever floats your boat. If becoming a high tier guild was that easy, I would expect that all of you would be in one.Many of the regular Grovers(myself included) either are in or have been in high tier guilds. My son is in the number 3 guild on his server and I was an elemental guildleader until RL forced me to spend less time in game.

The main thing that it takes to be a high end raider is Time. Most guilds will take a mediocre player who can make every raid over a top notch player who makes 1 in 5.

I'm sad to say that I won't be back to Druid's Grove (for the 3rd time since I started my druid just after Everquest was released). I should have learned the first 2 times, but I have now. I thought it would be a group of like minded people who support each other no matter what their level, or what their guild status. I see it's not that way. All I have seen since I started reading it again is Uber vs. casual player and more anger and frustration than playing a game meritsThe fact that everyone speaks his/her mind and doesn't just follow the popular crowd is what keeps me coming to this board. Lets face it, the ubers and casuals don't play the same game and, for the most part don't have the same problems nor the same opinions on any one issue. Neither is wrong, just coming from different points of view.

Lets face it, the ubers and casuals don't play the same game and, for the most part don't have the same problems.

Oddy enough, this is exactly my point. So if you have problems with how middle tier guilds are affected by things in the game, sure talk about them, tell sony about them, ask for them to be changed. But why drag other level players into it when, as you said so eloquently, we don't really play the same game.

Low level focus effects, despite the stupid system (which we fought, and repeatedly asked for a scaling system) and the lack of a second round of itemization (which we havent forgotten) still have the benefit of lasting for 15-25 levels each.

If they dont raise the limit of the level 4 focus items, that gives them only 5 useable levels. Not only that, but unlike when PoP was released, there *was* a decent selection of focus items available in VT which we knew (after even more fighting) were going to be raised to cover the new 5 levels. But right now there just isnt... the focus items from GoD are difficult in the extreme to obtain, and poTime is even worse and harder to get to than VT ever was.

Not raising the level cap on focus 4's makes huge swathes of content instantly obsolete. An expansion that makes the world effectively *smaller* is not good for the game, as was seen when PoP was released with the halved blue xp range (which we fought and got changed.)

Having been in top tier guilds off and on for all of EQ's retail existence, I can see clearly the problems that restricting these things too much can cause. It's not an uber vs casual thing, its just that some people cant or wont look beyond their own situations. There's simply no way that there's going to be enough content in OoW to cover all that will be lost by making all of PoP and many other zones (like new VP even) obsolete.

The raid guilds which seek to defeat Oow will naturally generate more focus items as upgrades along the way. Non raid players, who draw from an inferior and massively more narrow range of possibilities are far more vulnerable to their focus effects being invalidated.

In short the issue is not whether they kill the basic focusIV effects, it's that they allow non-raiders a path to re-acquire some percentage of parity.

And personally I found being in a raid guild pretty easy, it's never as lonely as being LFG and there's a steady stream of great loot which gives you all sorts of in game options and power a non-raider doesn't have.

You are WAY off base here. Don't tell me that me and my guild didn't "earn" our current focus effects. We have worked LONG and HARD for every flag, every kill and EVERY piece of armor. We play for HOURS at night, redoing content until we learn the proper techniques

You are WAY making an assumption that I don't know what raiding guilds are like. I'm in a raiding guild, one that is composed of folks with very demanding jobs and families. Most of us can only raid a few hours each night during the week, and make up for it on weekends. Being a relatively small guild, we're following the game's natural path of progression, just at a slower rate... we're not in Time but we're working our way in that direction. Our focus has always been quality and strategy over quantity, so please don't tell me about how hard you worked learning encounters. The encounters you learned with 75 people we've learned with 20-25.

Ours is a small guild, with very capable raiders, a few of whom were not only in high tier guilds but THE top guilds on our server until RL obligations prevented them from raiding as much Mon-Thurs. They enjoy the raiding game, just can't do it on the days their previous guilds required. The fact that they chose our guild over one that was closer to where they were, should tell you something about the caliber of play.

But like jtoast, I do have ties to larger guilds and have raided with them numerous times; just this week, for instance, when one of those guilds was backflagging and needed a few extra flagged people to gimp in their recruits. I was glad to help, but it sure made me appreciate the cohesion of my guild.

So why are mid level guild people asking for their focuses to be raised too?

Because these "mid level guild people" as you like to call them, are 65th level just like you, we raid many hours a week just like you, we spend time wiping to learn how encounters work just like you, and just like you, we would have to do it all again for focus5 effects if our current focus4 items become obsolete. You don't want to throw away gear you've spent the last year getting, and neither do we.

~Firemynd

The new spells are all 15% markups over the GoD/PoP spells, not like that's a huge increase in power. So your DPS is marginally lower, so is your aggro ;).

Because these "mid level guild people" as you like to call them, are 65th level just like you, we raid many hours a week just like you, we spend time wiping to learn how encounters work just like you, and just like you, we would have to do it all again for focus5 effects if our current focus4 items become obsolete. You don't want to throw away gear you've spent the last year getting, and neither do we.

Yes! Plain and simple. There it is.

And remember, the Time and GoD "special" focii are already better than the 'regular' level 4 focii. So the ubers will still be better than the casuals, don't worry. You can still maintain your bragging rights, for whatever they are worth :p

You are WAY making an assumption that I don't know what raiding guilds are like. I'm in a raiding guild, one that is composed of folks with very demanding jobs and families. /snip... The encounters you learned with 75 people we've learned with 20-25.

That in itself shows a certain lack of respect and understanding for what is actually going on in high-end raiding. Here is a few facts for you : EP requires a lot of peeps to complete... But it's not high end anymore - by far. High end is past PoTime - which is hard coded to maximum 72 by the way. The name of the game now is 54, and it's hard coded to that number. It is like that in GoD, it will be like that in OoW. Encounters are designed for this number, meaning it's certainly not a "zerg" like you seem to assume most high end raiding is. Trying those encounters with 20-25, when your gear is appropriate, is suicide. It's a complete waste of time. There is *no* way to learn them with 20-25.

just this week, for instance, when one of those guilds was backflagging and needed a few extra flagged people to gimp in their recruits. I was glad to help, but it sure made me appreciate the cohesion of my guild.

Hmm? Reflagging for what? PoTime? EP? Hate to tell you this, but I have seen a new guild start on my server and be EP flagged within a week. It's really not high end anymore. A guild requiring outside aid for EP-reflagging is not gimping; it's in big trouble.

VT is actually easy to get to nowadays. It can be mastered, assuming a guild whose players are all starting from scratch at level 1, within 6 months (I have seen it happen). It can be done from the first clearing (ie gear appropriate), by a crew of about 35. I heard some "guilds" have tried some nameds with a group or 2.

Because these "mid level guild people" as you like to call them, are 65th level just like you, we raid many hours a week just like you, we spend time wiping to learn how encounters work just like you, and just like you, we would have to do it all again for focus5 effects if our current focus4 items become obsolete. You don't want to throw away gear you've spent the last year getting, and neither do we.

- Actually, mid-level folks can borrow strategies learned from the high end. An option that is far less available to the high-end. Not saying mid-level folks don't wipe and learn, but it's certainly to a lesser degree. Most wipes I had as a mid-level raider were because of folks not listening to "basic" instructions, not because we didnt know what to do.

- I *do* want to throw away gear to upgrade to better... I just don't want to work (play actually) through content to see some new focus upgrade become meaningless before I even have a chance to get it! What's the point of shiny new gear with a super focus effect if it's not going to be usable *at all*? I want to have to work through EP (done), Time (done), GoD(in progress) to achieve success in OoW. I *dont* wanna see a direct shortcut to OoW, bypassing all the above.

Callahad

Despite many posts in this thread, I don't really see Focus IV - V as an issue between high-end raiding guilds and more casual level 65 players. I think there are many more things that unite us than divide us.

I happen to be a casual player, and have gotten all the focus IV items I need. Sure, it's nice to find a better focus -- e.g. one that reduces mana on a particular spell type by 23% instead of the 15% I currently have -- but that is a relatively minor refinement.

What ticks me off is that with OoW I probably need to spend a significant amount of time regearing instead of doing more fun stuff like seeing new zones, and enjoying new encounters. I don't think I would feel any differently if I was in a high-end guild. Currently, I'm having fun doing things that I want to do, because I have the focus effects to do them.

I'll agree that gradually reducing the effectiveness of Focus IV items is better than having them totally ineffective over level 65. I was hoping for more.

... and totally changing the subject, I have a compliment for a high-level raiding guild (who I won't name).

Last Saturday, my guild was raiding the Deep. A single member of a high-level raiding guild got into trouble and needed help with his corpse. It was no big deal for us, so we helped. We got thanks and buffs. Cool.

Sunday afternoon six of us were pulling some mobs in KT. The same high-end guild killed a named. They let us know that a GoD spell rune had dropped and we were welcome to it because they didn't need it.

What goes around, comes around.

Thicket

Low level focus effects, despite the stupid system (which we fought, and repeatedly asked for a scaling system) and the lack of a second round of itemization (which we havent forgotten) still have the benefit of lasting for 15-25 levels each.

If they dont raise the limit of the level 4 focus items, that gives them only 5 useable levels. Not only that, but unlike when PoP was released, there *was* a decent selection of focus items available in VT which we knew (after even more fighting) were going to be raised to cover the new 5 levels. But right now there just isnt... the focus items from GoD are difficult in the extreme to obtain, and poTime is even worse and harder to get to than VT ever was.

Not raising the level cap on focus 4's makes huge swathes of content instantly obsolete. An expansion that makes the world effectively *smaller* is not good for the game, as was seen when PoP was released with the halved blue xp range (which we fought and got changed.)

Having been in top tier guilds off and on for all of EQ's retail existence, I can see clearly the problems that restricting these things too much can cause. It's not an uber vs casual thing, its just that some people cant or wont look beyond their own situations. There's simply no way that there's going to be enough content in OoW to cover all that will be lost by making all of PoP and many other zones (like new VP even) obsolete.

I think Tiane nailed it, and quite eloquently. This really isn't a uber vs. casual debate because both ubers and casuals will progress to level 70. I think casuals will be effected a bit more though as ubers tend to go through gear much faster and also because casuals are still working on EP/Time or perhaps even early GoD where none of the new focus effects will be found.

The level IV focus stopping to level 65, will have make me to totaly avoid them as they work for only 5 levels and are a lor harder that the level III to get. I will have gone directly to the level V ones.

I can also see that almost every one will now avoid PoP and Gates as end content and you will a drop of LDoN (unless focus V are added to the merchants). Why? A good part of the loot in PoP and Gate have just lost of it value with the lost of usefull focus. Try to do a raid when all the casters (wis and int ones) and some hybrids class say: sorry but I will get a more nedded upgrade in OoW.

Losing up to 45% of efficence because my spells focus lost their usage, make my mana bar even smaller.

When I have passed the level 60, I was only a few key level III focus, I have takem me a bout 1 years to get most of the level IV. And I have see a big drop in efficience betwin level 60 and 65 until I get level IV focus. Some item that I worn have bad stats, I have them only for the focus effect. While getting the level IV focus, I was thinking they worth it because they will serve a long time and I have planed some time to know what focus are one what armor slot to avoid to have a no so good focus in a slot that is the only one for a must have focus.

Another trick that SOE will probably do is completely change the slots where the present focus are, making harder to plan a udgrade path.

Eridalafar

Having reduced effectiveness, foci not working at all, etc at level 66+ is just a plain bad idea. It just means no one will do any PoP or GoD anymore much less earlier content such as VT and revamped Veeshan Peak. Why go through the camping for casuals or raiding for "ubers" for foci that wont be worth crap at level 70 and will make your level 70 spells about the same as your level 65 spells are now. It just doesnt make sense like a Wookie on Endor (SP reference ;p).

So basically everyone will be forced into only OoW content which invalidates an expansion that relatively just came out and has not been fully solved (or just recently done?? I dont think final boss has been killed but I havent really kept up with it...) This situation is sort of similar to PoP except we had VT foci still working and PoP added quite a number of new zones to play around in. OoW sounds alot more limited zonewise and was supposed to be the 2nd half of GoD, yet GoD foci wont even work to full effectiveness (or at all) so you might as well be casting level 65 spells still... Also, at least PoP spells were way better than sub 60 spells so even without the right foci they were still worth casting. The new OoW spells are only marginally better, especially if you have some nice focus effects for level 65.

Anyway, to some up for myself - I am semi retired right now. If my focus effects wont work at full power on level 66+ spells, there is no chance I'll reactivate me account and I am sure alot of the semi-retired druids out there feel the same.

Callahad: That in itself shows a certain lack of respect and understanding for what is actually going on in high-end raiding. ~
~Actually, mid-level folks can borrow strategies learned from the high end.
~Not saying mid-level folks don't wipe and learn, but it's certainly to a lesser degree. Most wipes I had as a mid-level raider were because of folks not listening to "basic" instructions, not because we didnt know what to do.

That shows a lack of respect and understanding for what is actually going on when a small guild successfully completes a raid/encounter that had never been done with less than 50 people. We have to consciously avoid "borrowing" strategies from the high end because those strategies often do not apply, since we don't have X number of this class or that class as larger guilds do. We have to learn encounters using what we have available, which often means learning them from scratch.

A guild requiring outside aid for EP-reflagging is not gimping; it's in big trouble.

Oh, I agree they were in trouble. The guild in the particular case I mentioned recently suffered huge losses due to people leaving for WoW and EQ2, only made worse as the top guild a tier above them lost folks for the same reason and started hand-picking from their roster. For the first time in over a year, they had to lower their app flag requirements ... and roll up their sleeves to rebuild. (Kudos to them for not just giving up, as so many others have.)

What's the point of shiny new gear with a super focus effect if it's not going to be usable *at all*? I want to have to work through EP (done), Time (done), GoD(in progress) to achieve success in OoW. I *dont* wanna see a direct shortcut to OoW, bypassing all the above.

Some of the focus4 items are "shiny new gear" to people who are still working their way through low-mid tiers of PoP/GoD. When they start getting level 66-70 spells they will have *no* focus benefits if their shiny focus4 items stop working.

They're anticipating level 70 -- not so they can do the most cutting edge OoW content, but simply so they'll be more capable of doing in PoP what might not have been possible with a smaller raid force. Same thing the raise to level 65 did over a year ago for making high-end Luclin content more accessible and doable for small raiding guilds and larger but more casual guilds.

You seem to think that there is only one legitimate way to play EQ, and that all guilds who wanted to continue raiding should have just bit the bullet and ballooned up when the game's mudflation dictated higher numbers for encounters. Your remarks imply that you discount a whole category of players who chose not to go that route, preferring a slower rate of progression over faster/bigger.

I cannot change your mindset, so I'll stop trying. But when you make the argument for your focus effects to be extended from 65 to 70, I hope you'll keep in mind that there are going to be plenty of dedicated and capable 70th level players who will be just as affected, if not moreso, when their "lesser" focus4 effects are suddenly useless to them for every new spell they get.

~Firemynd

Damn, Firemynd. Quite well said !! :)

That shows a lack of respect and understanding for what is actually going on when a small guild successfully completes a raid/encounter that had never been done with less than 50 people.

I would be *quite* interested in learning a few of those so-called never-been done-with-so-low-numbers strat. I knew a guild on the server I was in who flaunted the same thing, and I have yet to see one innovative strategy they used. They simply were better geared, thus requiring fewer people, than the previous attempts from higher-end guilds. It's the classic mindset of "we are leet, 'cause we don't zerg with X numbers". Don't get me wrong, it's a good way to play, and very rewarding. But it easily introduces the false notion that high-end raiding is zerging, and that you are above that.

Furthermore, you have to admit that your guild is a-typical. Thus you cannot base what mid-end raiding is on your guild's ways.


We have to consciously avoid "borrowing" strategies from the high end because those strategies often do not apply

And I bet those "strategies" are the zerg ones... A tactics used mostly in EP and lower to simply save time in prepping and executing and move on to something else. If I am right, then I would hope you realize the same guilds usually have another strat handy for that mob, one that doesnt rely on zerging... For example my ex-guild would do MB with 60+, but had a strat to do it with about 30...

Some of the focus4 items are "shiny new gear" to people who are still working their way through low-mid tiers of PoP/GoD. When they start getting level 66-70 spells they will have *no* focus benefits if their shiny focus4 items stop working.

But then, they can work through EP, Time, GoD to get the next better set of focii! Instead of completely going past all these and go all OoW. Which would be a total disaster for the gameplay environment.

You seem to think that there is only one legitimate way to play EQ, and that all guilds who wanted to continue raiding should have just bit the bullet and ballooned up when the game's mudflation dictated higher numbers for encounters.

Not at all. The name of the game is 54. PoP, with 72 (and sometimes more), was a mistake that SoE freely admitted. This is how it is, whether you like it or not. It's perfectly acceptable to wait to be able to do encounters with less... But imho you should go through the content as it was meant to be, and not bypass a whole section of it.

Already, with the new GoD spells (most of which are 1-groupable, by the way), with the VP revamp, with the new GoD AAs, the Tribute system, Leader AAs, etc, there already has been a tremendous impact on how easy it is to go through EP. With OoW there will be new spells, new AAs, new Leader AAs (I think), 5 levels worth of hp and mana, better mana regen (innate and from spells), better buffs, etc etc. Just with that, EP will be even easier.

Is it worth the risk of putting focus 4 to 70 when you run the chance of making EP, PoTime and GoD obsolete?

Callahad

One thing on focus items.

They were never meant to be essential equipment. They were meant as part of caster balancing to balance casters vs melee's with the melee's ability to deliver consistant long term damage over a caster.

However, over time SoE has used focus items as essential parts of a caster's equipment list and balancing things around the assumption that they have it. And they balance our spell lineups around that as well.

Just ask yourself. How effective would you be without your focus items? We're no longer talking a little or a slight boost. We're talking upwards of suddenly becoming 20-30% less effective. Thats not a minor thing to lose. thats a major loss of power. For anyone of any level.

The issue shouldnt be about casuals vs ubers. Its about SoE's decision to simply create more rat races and time sinks instead of removing them. Also, it hurts casters far more than melee's. A melee at level 70 with all their spells and equipment from 1 expansion back is still a major force to be reckoned with. While they are somewhat less efficent (if they are a hybrid) they still can dish out almost as much as they could before. A caster, on the other hand, is upwards of 30% weaker even with their new spells. That makes casters far less valuable than ever.

I for one refuse to get onto the hampster wheel again. If OoW doesnt increase level 4 focus items and simply makes level 5 ones, then I'm out of here. I've already canceled my second account months ago and I'm only hanging onto my primary one till WoW comes out. I have a lot invested in my character, but not so much that I'll buy another expansion simply to see myself broken for another year, spend more and more time I could have spent productively elsewhere going to gearing up, just to be knocked back down again.

This was fun when I was 20. Now that I'm 30 its a whole different story. Gaming is evolving and changing. SoE can keep up with that change and also cater to those of us with a lot of disposable income to spread around, or they can watch us dispose of that income elsewhere than at their gateway.

For the record, I expect SoE to choose to be stupid till its too late myself.

But then, they can work through EP, Time, GoD to get the next better set of focii! Instead of completely going past all these and go all OoW. Which would be a total disaster for the gameplay environment.

Exactly wrong. If all 65th level focus items are extended to 70, players still have every motivation to work through EP/Time/GoD, because basic focus4 items SUCK compared to their EP/Time/GoD counterparts -- not just being lesser focus quality (e.g 15% spell haste versus 30%), but also in being far lesser overall quality; lower in stats and hp and ac and mana and resists.

It's the same reason people stuck to the game's natural path of raiding progression before there was any such thing as focus. The higher you go, the better items you find. And now that "better" includes the quality of focus .. and it'd be that way even if all focus items worked universally on all spell levels.

If you're trying to tell me that we need to strip focus from mid-tier raiders because upgrading from 15% to 30% (plus a ton more hp/mana/etc) isn't enough incentive to do the next logical tier of content, I think you're wrong. For my guild and many others, we WANT to follow that path at whatever pace we can ... but we don't want to be crippled along the way.

~Firemynd

What you're not considering is that most people who are not Time geared are generally not '1-grouping' mobs that drop focus4 items, much less soloing them. What may seem "easy to get" for you may not be so easy for others. You assume it is, just as you assume it will be easy for them to get focus5 effects for OoW spells.I was basing that on what I was able to do before joining a raiding guild (been in my servers end game guild for a yr and a month now ... before that I was an officer in a guild that was doing anything from hot farming to mujaki raids in pop when we did feel like raiding) and what I see friends who would be tagged as casual players can do.

Isliginton covered a lot of it though. It's not the easiest but from your other posts it seems you understand that ppl in non raiding guilds can be very capable since eq is as you said not rocket science. But basically I was refering to pop tradeskill items (you would have to get flagged thru an open raiding system - on my server we're really good about it and a rather large portion are flagged I think), ornate gear, god zone random drop items, some quest items, and also ldon augs cover some basics though not as well as IV stuff I think.

About the tribute thing I agree that itemization does need to be done properly/better but I don't think it's absurd to think of using tribute as a source for daily basis focuses. I keep afflction haste and efficiency running myself since you can't get those focuses anywhere else and recommended to ppl who didn't balance their focuses as well to run mana pres and spell haste until they can work it into their gear. But yeah, ultimately ppl should be able to get their focuses from worn stuff and I do hope that gets itemized better on both ends.. I do believe it's easier to set up for the IV/V lvl stuff though since it's easier to throw around a standard focus that anyone could have thru tribute anyways than a top of the line focus. I do hope they take a page from pop and make a lower end line of quest armour with focuses on them and make focuses available on crafted items (of course they have to make the parts available along with that =p)


That in itself shows a certain lack of respect and understanding for what is actually going on in high-end raiding... I didn't read everything Fire posted but I think she was on the money with the basic ideas. When she talks about raiding with lower nubmers I'm assuming this is some time after the stuff is considered current? The space inbetween either allows for better gearing from expansions later expansions or just better gearing by putting in the extra effort to the raid base (ie: making sure ea. caster has maxed ft all apporpriate focuses etc.). Have seen it work both ways and both were impressive, there definately is more finese when done with lower numbers.

Some stuff in god is capped (txevu isn't capped and did get zerged for some encounters) but that doesn't mean it can't be done with less with some added finese.

Actually, mid-level folks can borrow strategies learned from the high end. An option that is far less available to the high-end. Not saying mid-level folks don't wipe and learn, but it's certainly to a lesser degree. Most wipes I had as a mid-level raider were because of folks not listening to "basic" instructions, not because we didnt know what to do. Higher end guilds borrow basic knowledge and stuff a lot too.. Mid-end guilds I don't doubt do the same but credit should often be given where it's due. I've seen guilds liek the one I think fire is describing. Players inthose guilds could run circles around a large portion of the higher end ppl if given the same gear. The main difference is they do encounters with more finese and efficiency and it normally is interesting to watch.

I knew a guild on the server I was in who flaunted the same thing, and I have yet to see one innovative strategy they used. They simply were better geared, thus requiring fewer people, than the previous attempts from higher-end guilds I've seen it before, and it was within current expansions so it's not like they're going back after gearing up or lvling in another expansion. They're doing it in the same gear, lesser quality of gear, or just slightly better (usually thru balancing it better) but using little tricks to make things more efficient or just doing things better. One guild on my server used to do RZ (tactics) cc with just 1 bard and in general 20-30 less ppl than the 2 guilds ahead of them.. ppl zerged Zun in txevu with like 80ish ppl to do him at fist and others later did him easier with 50s or less. I think my guild did txevu hp with less ppl and in less time than most do, and I know within the guild itself we've done 1 or 2 events flawlessly with lower numbers that we blew big time with more ppl just b/c we played better on one day than the other.

Exactly wrong. If all 65th level focus items are extended to 70, players still have every motivation to work through EP/Time/GoD, because basic focus4 items SUCK compared to their EP/Time/GoD counterparts -- not just being lesser focus quality (e.g 15% spell haste versus 30%), but also in being far lesser overall quality;

Come again? EP healing : 25% instead of 20% for a total of 2.5% better healing. EP mana preserv : 15% (AHR mask is 18%...). EP beneficial spell haste : 25%. Nightcrawler leggings from VT : 30%. Etc etc etc. Most VT gear is in the 100hp range, and comes with hefty resists, and great AC. And VT can easily be done with 20-25 nowadays. Then, you can upgrade with simple 1-group camps in GoD for 130-150 hp items, with or without focus, because you can get Tribute to cover the missing ones. I expect this is going to be even better to do in OoW, as is usual for new expansions. IE everything will be done in OoW

It's the same reason people stuck to the game's natural path of raiding progression before there was any such thing as focus.

Not so. Many guilds entirely skip NtoV now. Many try and skip VT in favor of EP. There is at least one guild who is skipping Time for GoD.



but we don't want to be crippled along the way.

WHAT?? How so? You can still use the same focii on lvl65- spells - which is the very best of the tools you can use right now... Supposing no raising to lvl70 for focii in OoW, you STILL get better hp, mana, mana regen, buffs, AAs, etc than before. Don't ever tell me you would be crippled, on the contrary, things will be easier than ever before.

I think my guild did txevu hp with less ppl and in less time than most do, and I know within the guild itself we've done 1 or 2 events flawlessly with lower numbers that we blew big time with more ppl just b/c we played better on one day than the other.

Which is exactly my point. Your guild is high-end, and not zerging. Has strats to do it with lower people, sometimes uses them, sometimes not. You may take pride in that, and in truth, that's great. But never assume other guilds are simply inferior to you because you believe they zerg. Chances are you would be surprised.

Callahad

I dont get where your saying your crippled firemynd. Not only will your guild have the experiences and strats of guilds who have conquered this content before you, but you also will be able to use the existing foci (the same foci the UBERS had when they beat this content the first time) ..as well as level 70 and new aa's (which the ubers DIDNT have); level 70 as well as the new aa's will trivialize a lot of this content. As most of us know ..your chance to land spells for full as well as your ability to resist enemy spells is HEAVILY dependant on your level relative to the mob (in many cases level difference is MUCH more important than resist stats). Not to mention that your players will all have more base mana and hp to work with than when the ubers did these mobs.

And you insist your group of friends and guild is more skilled than the ubers (which i seriously doubt, nevertheless i wont argue the point). Coupled with the level increase, new aa's, and your guilds "superior fighting techniques" things will be a LOT easier for ya than they were for the ubers when they first did them.

Stop crying wolf, you're not gonna be crippled by a long shot. The stench from all this BS is making me gag

All IV+ focus items should be made to work to there full extent upto lvl 70, the balancing between the named focus items and the general type IV should remain as it always has the % effect.

Its not a raider vs non raider issue.

The issue is only having IV+ effect 5 levels of spells while the other focus items I to III effect a greater spell level range is stupid.



:mad:

The issue is only having IV+ effect 5 levels of spells while the other focus items I to III effect a greater spell level range is stupid.

Yep.

This is all based on the assumption that it matters. If OOW spells are like GoD spells, 80%+ of the player base will not have to worry about Focus IV effects working on their 66+ spells.

And thats a good thing?

Lets operate under the assumption that many of the spells are at least obtainable (not a given, I know, considering the current attitudes regarding spells at SO.) Even if they arent, that doesnt change any of the valid and justified complaints regarding the short shifting of focus IV effects.

And BTW SOE, they had *better* be obtainable or you can kiss a bunch more subscribers gbye. By far the prevaling feeling among players for YEARS has been that spells should be basically easy to obtain, perhaps with one or two special exceptions for those who feel the need to brag about their e-penis. But cmon, one of the reasons I started a priest in the first place was because the spells were all vendor sold instead of researched, and that trend continued more or less up through velious (luclin was just stupid... specific spells off of specific rare spawning raid mobs? fk that. On the other hand, the GoD system is just as bad if not worse... EverGrind at its best.)

WHAT?? How so? You can still use the same focii on lvl65- spells - which is the very best of the tools you can use right now...

Oh, so now you're saying that we should keep using the 60-65th level set of spells. After all, without focus, the 66-70th level spells will be less efficient.

But that doesn't surprise me. People in high-tier guilds have a terrible habit of thinking they're entitled to more benefits from leveling than their lower-tier counterparts.

Not so. Many guilds entirely skip NtoV now. Many try and skip VT in favor of EP. There is at least one guild who is skipping Time for GoD.

You are citing rare exceptions to make a point about what you think the rules should be. And you tried to invalidate my point by calling my guild atypical? You're not being consistent.

*FACT* is, the game's path of progression is logical, and only 2+ raiding expansions later do some of the old 'end-game' zones become less crucial in that path than they were previously.

*FACT* is, the quality of gear in EP/Time/God is utterly and indisputably superior to the gear available in lower PoP and prior. Most guilds will absolultey *not* skip over all that content because quite simply, there's no freakin' way they can possibly expect to survive GoD and OoW raids without gearing up. Even so, you seem to feel awfully threatened that any of them would dare to try.

Yes, level 70 will provide some minor benefits even without level 66-70 spells/focus, but those benefits don't even come close to making up the difference. And yes, content *should* become more doable with higher levels. That's a large part of the point I made.

I guess it's hopeless to argue this topic with someone who has such a rigid sense of entitlement as someone in a larger raiding guild. You just don't get it, and probably never will.

~Firemynd

I don't want EQ to be designed by folks like Calladed and others.

They suck all the fun out of the EQ because if you don't have the ability to churn gear rapidly, you will really get the short end of the stick.

Effort is not rewarded in EQ, so playing the "I work harder" card is total BS. Absolute crap. Melodrama is perfectly correct in this context.

If you don't raid you will work x2 as hard for 50% of the gear.

This is a fine and acceptable dynamic to a degree, because raiding is what EQ is now built on. But too much of a good thing is not a good thing and this kind of distortion is ruining EQ and causing lots of folks to quit who would be happy to continue playing (and paying) with some adjustment in progression.

And anyone who says "they don't need the gear" simply can't be taken seriously. In the history of all EQ bulletin boards, that's the single stupidest comment ever. Remarkable really.

This game is all about progression, growth and development. If folks lose that sense, they quit. A developer would have to be insane or really stupid to adopt this kind of game design theory.

It's not about time loot off moss snakes, it's about a sense of that you can continue to develop and grow your character. If you can't tell there's a lot of discontent with how things have evolved lately in EQ on this issue, you are blind. They clearly must do better in OOW or this game will really wither at an even faster pace.

I like raiding. It suits me fine. I'm a casual raider I guess. But I can clearly recognize there's a big problem in progression / gear design/ itemization. If you can't, you are simply wrong.

There's simply no way that there's going to be enough content in OoW to cover all that will be lost by making all of PoP and many other zones (like new VP even) obsolete.

This is totally correct. They have struggled with itemization in the last couple of expansions (PoP+), and there's no way OOW will be sufficiently itemized to accomodate replacement of all focus gear class by class. Unless we all wear the same gear.

If you don't raid you will work x2 as hard for 50% of the gear.



You got data to back up those numbers
:shuffle:

Of course he doesnt, unless you accept BS as empirical evidence.

Oh, so now you're saying that we should keep using the 60-65th level set of spells. After all, without focus, the 66-70th level spells will be less efficient.

No. I am saying that even if for some reason you are not able to use any kind of level 66+ heals and nukes, or if they for any reason are as efficient or less than your level 65 heals and nukes, you *still* are not crippled compared to today. Saying so is a lie.

But that doesn't surprise me. People in high-tier guilds have a terrible habit of thinking they're entitled to more benefits from leveling than their lower-tier counterparts.

And I thought this wasn't about uber vs casual, right? Again, you bring this up.

You are citing rare exceptions to make a point about what you think the rules should be.

Am not. Many a guild nowadays *does* in fact forego VT, NtoV is just about deserted. This is not the exception anymore, it's becoming the norm.

*FACT* is, the quality of gear in EP/Time/God is utterly and indisputably superior to the gear available in lower PoP and prior.

EP loot is good for it's HP value, because focus wise, it's really a small step up from ornate and VT gear. Since only HP/mana value is to be considered, and you can 1-group in GoD right now for similar hp/mana values, and one can assume you will be able to one-group for similar or better in OoW...

Time loot is a good step up from EP loot. Most of it comes from the focii. Starting in Time, focii really do become better. And I *did* say it made sense to make Time focii work to 70... Because if you dont, there will certainly be OoW and GoD to fill the gap left by not going to Time.

Even so, you seem to feel awfully threatened that any of them would dare to try.

Ooh!! Ooh! Uber vs Casual Debate!! ROFL!! That's funny as hell, 'cause you see, there is no way I could be threatened. GoD is instanced progression, remember? I really dont care where your guild is except to cheer you on. No, I would however be very disappointed to see guilds skip a lot of content, amd am hoping the focus issue is worked in a way that will diminish that.

Yes, level 70 will provide some minor benefits even without level 66-70 spells/focus, but those benefits don't even come close to making up the difference.

Please. 5 more levels is, for druids : about 100 hp/mana more. Spells landing more easily. Mobs landing spells on you less easily. 5 more mana regen from buffs, probably more from AA, add a better bard song. About 500hp more from buffs. Better AC, better regen, better DS. From AAs, you likely will get better crits, better pets, better MGB SotW, better healing and whatever else comes your way.

Let's just imagine an increase of 6% in crit rate for nukes... That's like a 12% better focus effect that works on ALL nukes!! MUCH better than the increase from VT to EP, if there is one even.

Dont underestimate the power of levels

I guess it's hopeless to argue this topic with someone who has such a rigid sense of entitlement as someone in a larger raiding guild. You just don't get it, and probably never will.

You have decidedly turned this in an uber vs casual discussion! FYI, I have been in a mid-end raiding guild until not so long ago. I guess I must have not gotten it, even though I lived it, right?

Callahad

You got data to back up those numbers


It's called looking at people's magelos and learning what their playstyles are and how many hours they've put in. It's also a product of actually playing this game for 5+ years with many of the same people and watching things evolve.

Unquestionably its my judgment call based on my experiences and interactions with others. If you play and interact in this game deaf, dumb and blind, then this kind of observation might come as a surprise. This is apparently the case with a couple of you.

I was an officer in a "family" style guild. We raided periodically, like most guilds of this sort did pre-PoP. We were particularly experts at epics, but also raided Trak, CT, Hate/Fear and that sort of stuff.

But particularly with the introduction of PoP, we hit a brick wall. After time, people felt like they weren't progressing, got frustrated and drifted off. To other guilds, to other games or just stopped logging in so much.

Eventually I too left and joined a guild with more ability to raid but which also tolerated my erratic times.

Although I played less, my gear vastly improved. Many of my old running mates played on, dropping off more and more as time went on. They were frustrated, and the little victories in progression here and there were not enough.

So they quit. And it's EQ's loss that they are gone. They didn't have to go, and a more inclusive design would have kept them in.

There's no question that if you don't raid with a big guild, you will hard to "work" harder (if time=work), to get lesser gear. To some extent this is a valid game design; taken too far it's destructive. I think it's clearly been taken too far, and there's little question it's been destructive.

If we realy need some new focus level for the level 65+ spells . Can we get this:

- level V focus for the spells of level 66.
- level VI focus for the spells of level 67.
- level VII focus for the spells of level 68.
- level VIII focus for the spells of level 69.
- level IX focus for the spells of level 70.
and a lot of focus that work on only 1 spell too.


And eatch of the new focus work only for his spell level. Then the one that want a new level of focus will have a very good reason to be happy, they will have a lot of gear to get.

Just hope that the new focus will be on some augments and that the OoW armor will have a lot of augments slots.

/sarcast off

Eridalafar

I think your forgetting that the ubers give up a lot of personal freedom and social contacts (in RL and in game) in order to maintain the schedule they need in order to be in a raiding guild.

Most raiding guilds REQUIRE attendance on raids, which forces you to give up social time in game and in RL, thus your forgo many of your close in game friendships, as well as a lot of time exping and exploring and a lot of the other fun things that you get to do when not bound by the requirements of a raiding guild.

Ive spent over 2 years in both family and raiding guilds and ive been an officer/leader in both. There are benefits and negatives to both of them. Basically if you want to raid you give up a lot of your personal freedom and time with the benefit being greater. Family guilds allow you to play part time and are much less restrictive, allowing you to spend more time with friends as well as exploring exping and other things; its really a tradeoff.

Callahad: No. I am saying that even if for some reason you are not able to use any kind of level 66+ heals and nukes, or if they for any reason are as efficient or less than your level 65 heals and nukes, you *still* are not crippled compared to today. Saying so is a lie.

Again, you're missing the point. We choose to progress more slowly, a sacrifice we consciously make to retain a guild size and environment that is fun for us. As a smaller guild, we rely upon new spells and AAs to do content that we couldn't previously do with our numbers no matter how good our strategies were. And this is a legitimate style of play, a valid style of raiding, and it's been around for as long as the raiding game itself has been.

And I thought this wasn't about uber vs casual, right? Again, you bring this up.

I brought it up because you don't seem to realize how unjust it is to argue that higher quality focus4 iems should gain even more value by being extended to work for a range of ten levels, while their basic focus4 counterparts only work for a range of five levels. That by leveling to 70, people with those better focus items should gain focus effects for all new spells immediately for no additional effort, while those in lower raiding tiers must regear to have any focus at all for new spells.

Notice I never said that basic focus4 items should be raised and the higher quality focus items stay the same; that would inequitably penalize a particular playstyle while rewarding another, which wouldn't be fair. I said all 65th level focus should be extended to work with 66-70th spells, or none should; that's fair.

Many a guild nowadays *does* in fact forego VT, NtoV is just about deserted. This is not the exception anymore, it's becoming the norm.

Why are you even arguing with me about this? What you're saying is totally consistent with the point I made about how 'end game' zones become less crucial after a few subsequent expansions. That's just how EQ is, and has always been. It isn't "becoming" the norm, it has always been the norm.

And yes, occasionally you'll see a few guilds attempting to skip those end-game zones sooner than 'a few expansions later', but not necessarily because they want to. Usually these exceptions are guilds who are most susceptible to cockblocking of flag/key mobs necessary to enter the old end zones -- i.e. small guilds, and/or those with mostly west coast players.

For instance, my guild had a terrible time just trying to get a shot at Emp in Ssra, because a large guild who was farming VT for months was able to have 50+ people waiting in Ssra while most of my guildies were still at work. Nothing we could do about that, even though we were perfectly capable of doing the encounter itself.

It's nothing we haven't seen before though. I recall lots of competition for Trak when VP was the end game zone, and that was back when raiding wasn't even such a large part of the game. Some guilds chose to skip the hassles of VP as soon as Velious was released, not because they didn't want to follow the game's path, but because that path wasn't as accessible to them based on factors which had nothing to do with their capabilities.

Ooh!! Ooh! Uber vs Casual Debate!! ROFL!! That's funny as hell, 'cause you see, there is no way I could be threatened. GoD is instanced progression, remember?

I didn't mean 'threatened' in the sense that a smaller guild would be competing with you for spawns. I meant that you are threatened at the thought that they might actually get some of the same rewards without going through the same timesinks of previous end zones as you did. How dare they skip those timesinks. You went through VT/EP/Time/GoD in a certain order, so everyone else should have to as well, right?

FYI, I have been in a mid-end raiding guild until not so long ago. I guess I must have not gotten it, even though I lived it, right?

I'll try not to hold that against you, since those "mid-tier" guilds suffer huge setbacks when members jump ship. But I can understand that you want your "uber" gear's focus to remain viable for new spells. Lower-tier raiders want the same, even though their focus effects are on items that aren't quite as shiny.

~Firemynd

Marklar: Most raiding guilds REQUIRE attendance on raids, which forces you to give up social time in game and in RL, thus your forgo many of your close in game friendships, as well as a lot of time exping and exploring and a lot of the other fun things that you get to do when not bound by the requirements of a raiding guild.

Those are sacrifices no one should have to make for a game.

It is offensive to me that those who choose to let a game dictate their play schedules so much that it interferes with RL relationships, would argue in favor of penalizing those who refuse to let a game do that to them.

However, I don't think you're representing 'ubers' very fairly, either. I'm sure there are plenty of folks in heavy raiding guilds who manage to find an appropriate balance between their real lives and their gaming time.

~Firemynd

But particularly with the introduction of PoP, we hit a brick wall. After time, people felt like they weren't progressing, got frustrated and drifted off. To other guilds, to other games or just stopped logging in so much.

This is so indicative of my scenario, and I would think many others. In the past, there were one or two zones that were "locked" and required keys. With PoP, 80 % of the zones were inaccessible until you took out boss mobs that required raids. There was now so much content that the casual would never get to see, and so much new items and equipment to go along with it. It can be very frustrating and discouraging.

And please, don't tell me that just because you are in a raiding guild you put more time into the game. You may be in a 4 hour raid, and I may be online at the same time. Personally, I have almost 500 AA, and I am not even elemental-flagged. YEs, I spend way too much time playing this game. I just wish I had higher hopes to see more "stuff" while still keeping my friends.

Again, you're missing the point. We choose to progress more slowly

The point is, you said you would be crippled. This is not true. Don't try and circumvent the issue, it simply isn't.


As a smaller guild, we rely upon new spells and AAs to do content that we couldn't previously do with our numbers no matter how good our strategies were.

And again, whatever happens with the focii, this *will* happen.


I brought it up because you don't seem to realize how unjust it is to argue that higher quality focus4 iems should gain even more value by being extended to work for a range of ten levels, while their basic focus4 counterparts only work for a range of five levels.

What you fail to realize is that those high level focii are for all practical purposes only obtainable at level 65, with a number of AAs. That some of these focii could become obsolete, period, some without having even been obtained in game yet. So you wanna talk about disparity? How is it fair to have a simple tribute/bazaar focus useful to you for 5 levels, while some higher ones would be obsolete on being discovered?

Why are you even arguing with me about this? What you're saying is totally consistent with the point I made about how 'end game' zones become less crucial after a few subsequent expansions. That's just how EQ is, and has always been. It isn't "becoming" the norm, it has always been the norm.

Because you have told me that my argument was invalid, as I was supposedly citing an "exception", and not the norm.

I didn't mean 'threatened' in the sense that a smaller guild would be competing with you for spawns. I meant that you are threatened at the thought that they might actually get some of the same rewards without going through the same timesinks of previous end zones as you did. How dare they skip those timesinks. You went through VT/EP/Time/GoD in a certain order, so everyone else should have to as well, right?

/snicker. It's not being "threatened". It's looking at the game and realizing that great zones like NtoV, VT, EP, Time, GoD would become deserted, and that can only hurt the game. There is no avoiding it in time, of course, but the longer those zones stay populated, the better the health of the game environment. I am incredibly surprised that you don't see it.

But in any event, and again, why even bring this to the discussion? Do you see me saying that your arguments are not worth a cent because you are jealous of the high-end? ...

Callahad
Callahad

It's called looking at people's magelos and learning what their playstyles are and how many hours they've put in. It's also a product of actually playing this game for 5+ years with many of the same people and watching things evolve.

Unquestionably its my judgment call based on my experiences and interactions with others. If you play and interact in this game deaf, dumb and blind, then this kind of observation might come as a surprise. This is apparently the case with a couple of you.

I was an officer in a "family" style guild. We raided periodically, like most guilds of this sort did pre-PoP. We were particularly experts at epics, but also raided Trak, CT, Hate/Fear and that sort of stuff.

But particularly with the introduction of PoP, we hit a brick wall. After time, people felt like they weren't progressing, got frustrated and drifted off. To other guilds, to other games or just stopped logging in so much.

Eventually I too left and joined a guild with more ability to raid but which also tolerated my erratic times.

Although I played less, my gear vastly improved. Many of my old running mates played on, dropping off more and more as time went on. They were frustrated, and the little victories in progression here and there were not enough.

So they quit. And it's EQ's loss that they are gone. They didn't have to go, and a more inclusive design would have kept them in.

There's no question that if you don't raid with a big guild, you will hard to "work" harder (if time=work), to get lesser gear. To some extent this is a valid game design; taken too far it's destructive. I think it's clearly been taken too far, and there's little question it's been destructive.


So thats a no then. :grin:

/snicker. It's not being "threatened". It's looking at the game and realizing that great zones like NtoV, VT, EP, Time, GoD would become deserted, and that can only hurt the game.

How does a single zone becoming deserted, or just less useful, or less required, "hurt the game" exactly? What I believe you meant to say is, that it would hurt your feelings if people didn't endure the same timesinks you did before getting to higher stuff.

You're wrong about that, and you're wrong to think it would be fair that lower tier raiders would need to completely regear to have any focus for new spells, while upper tier raiders would gain immediate focus benefits for new spells without any regearing at all. I believe you're past the point where you might come to see how unfair that is, so I'm done with ya. /shrug

~Firemynd

Marklar, are you defending the dynamic you describe as *good* game design? You don't believe a lot of improvement is possible? I don't really agree with your description, but to the extent you're right, it hardly helps in defense of the status quo.

I think with relatively modest design changes, they can do a much better job making a wider pool of people happier.

Ironically, GoD is clearly a step in the right direction, but they frigged up its release so much it's astounding. If OOW is remotely like that, EQ will lose another huge % of their subscribers.

Fenlayen, post something worth responding to.

*snip* no personal attacks. - Tia

I hardly think that was a personal attack.

More of an observation about the nature of Fenlayen's posts.

That's not your call to make. PM Sobe or Stormhaven, otherwise, keep it out of this thread. The end. - Tia

How does a single zone becoming deserted, or just less useful, or less required, "hurt the game" exactly?

A single zone? think again. All of EP, plus Time, plus half the GoD zones... combined with VT, most of Ssra, NtoV. All of which have been considered target zones, with getting to them being a goal in and of itself.

I wont even reply to the rest, since it holds *very* little value...

Callahad

The real problem with all of this is the really stupid way Spell FEs were implemented in the first place. They should never have been level restricted on teh spell, just more powerful.

E.g.
Spell Haste I - 2%, Spell Haste II - 4%, SH III - 6%, SH IV - 10%, etc. If they had done it that way, this probably would not have arrised in PoP and would not be arrising in OOW. Its how melee effects work, why are casters not done the same way.

Of course OOW FEs should be better and thus ultimately obsoleting GoD and Time FEs, but it should not be all or nothing. Again, using melee as the example (or items with skill mods), 19% Haste is made obsolete by getting 36% Haste (and so on), but if your Level 65 character is still running around with that Haste Item he got in Guk at level 30, it still gives him 19% Haste.

SOE has been collasally stupid on some very obvious things in the past. This is one of them and it would be nice to see them fix it.

A single zone? think again. All of EP, plus Time, plus half the GoD zones... combined with VT, most of Ssra, NtoV. All of which have been considered target zones, with getting to them being a goal in and of itself.Sounds Kinda like the entire old world and most of Kunark and velius is now *shrug*

New expansions make old gear and old zones obsolete. Thats just the way it works, granted this is faster than usual.

Sorry, just getting to this thread late, but Firemynd brought me out of lurking with this one:

It's really about opportunity. If you are in a PoTime/GoD raiding guild, you will get your OoW 66-70th level spells *and* the newest/best focus effects long before the folks in smaller raiding guilds. As a bonus, they will probably be dumping their banks into your lap for trinkets you find in OoW that their guilds can't help them get.

I can't understand for the life of me what those smaller raid guilds need with their 66-70th spells and their newest focii when doing content that's self-admittedly a few years old. What I mean is. Let's say your guild is killing High Priest of Ssra as a basic level. Well that's pretty spiffy, but it was intended for level 60's in Velious-Luclin gear, without GoD AA or spells, OoW AA or spells. So now you have 10 levels on the original raiders who get handed everything and much more power with spells and abilities.

Also, it bothers me that you would feel the way you do about focii. Again, you don't need the higher levels of focii until you are in the content in which they were intended. In which case, you *will* be killing the mobs that drop them. It's progression. I don't see where this sentiment is coming from that raid items need to be available to non-raiders. The items and gear we are given is for hours and hours of raiding in the future. Our guild officers invest in us, hoping that we will pay our dues by showing up at raids so we can continue progressing.

Oh well, just my opinion ;)

EDIT: I wanted to mention, as a rule I am not against casuals having a defined progression. I want the game to be whatever they want from it, but I do get a bit tired of hearing how my way of enjoying the game isn't a valid one (raiding). But hey, I'm just one of the sheep.

I can't understand for the life of me what those smaller raid guilds need with their 66-70th spells and their newest focii when doing content that's self-admittedly a few years old. What I mean is. Let's say your guild is killing High Priest of Ssra as a basic level. Well that's pretty spiffy, but it was intended for level 60's in Velious-Luclin gear, without GoD AA or spells, OoW AA or spells. So now you have 10 levels on the original raiders who get handed everything and much more power with spells and abilities.


You're leaving out numbers. One of the big differences between the uberguild and the guilds trailing behind them is the number of players that they can field on a consistent basis. The smaller raid guilds need those spells and levels because they have to do what you did but with half the numbers.

And don't bother telling me that those guilds should be required to do it with the same number of people, or I'll tell you where to put some body parts in other body parts.... :grin:

Actually, I am convinced that all 65 focii should be raised to 70(all of them, IV and Time/GoD). And I suppose it is fair enough to want the extra spells and abilities so that you can do lower content with less people, but you also have to consider what it will do to the newly level 70 raiders who do it "as intended". They will breeze through the zones or skip them altogether.

The way Fire's guild does it sounds perfectly fine with me, I'm worried more about their counterparts who don't limit their number. 72 level 70's will be a force to be reckoned with and will burn up all the content faster than we can probably imagine ;) Oh well, time will tell.

If a guild can field 72 level 70s, then they are on their way to being an uberguild if they aren't already. They will quickly catch up to all the other uberguilds, where they all can race for the spawn (which, I suppose, is a good thing, according to all the high level folks who tell me that the race for the spawn promotes competitiveness and guild spirit...)

Stormlin: EDIT: I wanted to mention, as a rule I am not against casuals having a defined progression. I want the game to be whatever they want from it, but I do get a bit tired of hearing how my way of enjoying the game isn't a valid one (raiding).

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it a half dozen times, but this isn't about casuals, it is about lower tier raiders -- max level people in guilds which do raid on a regular and frequent basis, limited in rate of progression mostly by the numbers they field.

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but for me, raiding with a smaller force makes the game more fun; and certainly is more exciting when it's "do or die" ... no 'extra' clerics to camp when things turn ugly, no 'extra' paladins to spread around for group heals on AE encounters, often no 'extra' tanks beyond the hybrids already offtanking adds. Each person is vital to the success of the raid. I've never once felt like druid_12. I wouldn't want to play the game any other way.

I'm not naive, though. I realize that some content would simply overwhelm a smaller raid force, by virtue of its very design. That's where new spells, levels, AAs, etc. can be an equalizing factor.

What boggles my mind is why high-tier raiders even care what we're doing or how we're doing it, since we aren't in their way at all. Only reason I can think of, is that they're stuck on this "we had to walk uphilll through snow, you should too" mentality. I wonder what do they want us to do exactly... restrict ourselves to level 60 and recruit a hundred people so we can do it the "right" way?

~Firemynd

What boggles my mind is why high-tier raiders even care what we're doing or how we're doing it, since we aren't in their way at all. Only reason I can think of, is that they're stuck on this "we had to walk uphilll through snow, you should too" mentality. I wonder what do they want us to do exactly... restrict ourselves to level 60 and recruit a hundred people so we can do it the "right" way?

Please read my second post Fire. I did not intend to say you should play the game in any way. I actually appreciate the description of how your guild raids, and think that is a legitimate reason to want the extra spells and abilities. What high-end raiders are worried about is wasting the time of 50+ friends for the last year, and that's exactly what will have happened if they nullify any progression or need to follow progression (ie. Making PoP and GoD focii worthless therefore removing most of the reason for going to those places). Or atleast, that's my take on the comments in this post from high-end raiders. Noone is saying screw the small raiding guilds, they are just saying please don't screw us and make the last year of raiding every night useless. Sure, we picked up hps/mana/ac etc, but I'll tell you this, when I put in for an item it's almost always for the focus with hp/mana as a secondary.

I hope I was more clear and perhaps answered your question. Play the game however you are happy, you folks pay your money each month like everyone else.

Sounds Kinda like the entire old world and most of Kunark and velius is now *shrug*

New expansions make old gear and old zones obsolete. Thats just the way it works, granted this is faster than usual.

Exactly : it's faster. I think a sensible game design point of view is to try and slow it down, even if only a bit. Otherwise you will probably be able - and want to, except for variety - limit yourself to OoW content.

Callahad

Fire im not gonna spar with you over what should and shouldnt be basic game mechanics; i agree you shouldnt have to sacrifice RL and in game contacts to raid ...but the fact of the matter is you DO have to as the game is set up atm.

The game has pretty much forced most players down one path or another ..thats just how it is, unfortunately.

As the game design is atm you cant reasonably expect to have a ton of personal in-game freedom and be an effective uber raider at the same time (unless your unemployed or can play 24/7), there simply isnt enuff hours in the day to do both effectively. You cant have your cake and eat it too with the way the game is set up.

I dont really see an effective way to change it either.

I mean i DO think those that devote more time and effort to the game and organize themselves should receive greater rewards; come to think of it RL is a lot like that too.

And i never claimed people in uber guilds cant have a RL social life; ..what i said was that its difficult to have a lot of in-game freedom to do whatever you want, when you want while in a raiding guild; ...these guilds by their very nature put a lot of time requirements on any members. As for RL, well its hard to raid full time (8+ hours a day) and maintain a healthy social life. Then again im sure some people just do what i do and cut out sleep! :)

And don't bother telling me that those guilds should be required to do it with the same number of people, or I'll tell you where to put some body parts in other body parts.... :grin:

Oooh just too tempting to resist if one is in a cyber mood... :p

Scirocco, those guilds should be required to do it with the same number of people! :dance:

I call bull ****.
Its not alright for some higher end pop and god foci to be changed to work on level 70 spells and the lower end ornate and other foci left the same.

I dont care what argument you use.

End of discussion.

Personally i'd like to see the baselike IV focus items extended to 70 but anything beyond that remain at the 65 cap. My reasoning is that if the PoTime and GoD focus items get pushed to the cap, there isn't really much in the way of room for upgraded focus effects from there. No way in hell they're adding a 50+% Cold DD focus.

If they up the baseline focus items with their 10-20% bonuses, it'll present some interesting choices (lose a ton of stats to focus the new spell? go without? keep the old spell for now?) without being unbalancing. Better focus items will become available as we progress thru OoW, and for those people who aren't inclined to progress thru the raid content, at least the baseline focus items give them something to work with. If that PoTime cold nuke wristband works thru 70, there's very little incentive to work towards upgrades. (hp/mana/resists as upgrades just don't excite me the way a new focus or clicky effect does)

But how exciting is working towards a new focus item just because your old one was made arbitrarily irrelevent by levelling?

Thats kind of the opposite of exciting.

You are WAY off base here. Don't tell me that me and my guild didn't "earn" our current focus effects. We have worked LONG and HARD for every flag, every kill and EVERY piece of armor. We play for HOURS at night, redoing content until we learn the proper techniques (and dealing with MANY wipes along the way). BS that raid leaders do all the work, EVERY single player at a raid must do his/her job or the raid isn't going anywhere. A few basic instructions? We ALL know our jobs, we've learned them from LOTS OF HARD WORK. It's quite obvious to me that you've never stepped foot inside Time or GoD. If you had you'd know how ridiculous your statement is.
Why is this reminding me of Pavlov and his dogs?

Why is this reminding me of Pavlov and his dogs?

Well, considering that MMOGs as a whole are built on exploiting that principle, uh, it'd be kinda hard to not notice.

If SoE had no NDA on their betas, maybe threads like this wouldn't exist.

Pretty sad they choose this way which only leads to frustration and wrong speculations.