View Full Forums : When will the US attack Iraq and should They?
digdug
08-17-2002, 02:50 PM
I say nov 6th..
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Nafai Nyef
08-17-2002, 03:13 PM
No, I don't believe so. It might be the straw that breaks the UN's back in which case they'd have to umm...make vague threats and increase tariffs on American goods. And we can't have that.
Yeah, Iraq isn't a nice place and we don't want them shooting nukes at us...so fine, let's invade sometime. I don't know when though. My middle eastern issue is Israel. I don't know why we keep supporting it when they break agreements as much as the Palestinians. But don't even get me started.
Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-17-2002, 07:32 PM
Yes, please do not start regarding Israel. I don't have time to re-educate you.
Suffice to say. Israel is our friend.
Ligge
08-17-2002, 07:37 PM
I voted for Micky Mouse!
Rhadamanthus Maestromasticus
08-17-2002, 08:31 PM
I think this would belong in the OT forum should it not?
Anyways Israel is *not* our friend, Israel does what is best for Israel.
And there is nothing wrong with that, when you are a small power it is *always* in your best interest to think of no one but yourself.
When you're a super power however such behavior can be disastrous.
The United States will attack Iraq when George Bush's popularity rating is lowest, a nice aerial bombardment tends to boost approval ratings. So Nov. 6th isn't a bad guess =)
FyyrLuStorm
08-17-2002, 10:28 PM
My daughter's(first daugher) birthday is Sept. 11.
Nuke em all to Hell. I don't care if my gas is radioactive.
Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-18-2002, 10:51 AM
Anyways Israel is *not* our friend, Israel does what is best for Israel.
Israel has been the sole democratic nation and ally of the United States in the Mid East region for 50 years.
Whereas the Arab nations and the Palestinians were allies of and supported by the Soviet Union until the demise of said nation. At which time they came like the bootlicking dogs they are to our doorstep and begged for US support.
King Flamelord
08-18-2002, 11:11 AM
Aidon.
I remember the USS Liberty. That is ALL I have to say on Israel and what they are and what they stand for.
Rhadamanthus
Dark Elf Necromancer
Xegony
King Flamelord
08-18-2002, 11:24 AM
I guess I have a little bit more to say...
The following quote is an excerpt from the USS Liberty's memorial website (www.ussliberty.com) (http://www.ussliberty.com))
This web site is dedicated to the memory of thirty-four fine young men who gave their lives on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.
The attack has been a matter of controversy ever since. Survivors and many key government officials including Secretary of State Dean Rusk and former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was no accident. Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth.
Israel claims they mistook our ship for the out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir and that we brought the attack upon ourselves by operating in a war zone without displaying a flag. Not so. We were in international waters, far from any fighting, and flew a bright, clean, new American flag.
The flag we flew is on display at the National Cryptologic museum, Fort Meade, Maryland and can be seen there, or in the USS Liberty Images Archive.
Our commanding officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor for conspicuous gallantry and intrepedity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty during the attack. The Congressional Medal of Honor is the highest award our country can bestow.
To avoid embarrassing our attackers, Captain McGonagle's Medal of Honor was presented in a quiet ceremony in the Washington Navy Yard instead of in the White House by the President as is customary.
aandaie
08-18-2002, 07:39 PM
I think its a goofy political move now. It WOULD have been good to simply finish what they started at the time with desert storm. Now its goofy. I'd still support it though if they finished the job this time, I don't see any point unless they really go in there and overthrow him and drag him kicking and screaming to trial. If anything it would be an even longer lasting example of why you "don't mess."
Basing your opinion of Israel on what was a probable accident 33 years ago is kind of silly. They made a mistake.
King Flamelord
08-18-2002, 10:39 PM
I bet the children and spouses of those 37 dead United States seamen think it's "silly" too.
If you live in the United States, realize those men died for you. They went out to defend the interests of the United States, and they sacrificed their lives for a cause that they believed in.
It is disgusting that you can say it was a silly mistake on the part of the Israelis. You do realize pilots (especially back then) had to have superb vision, do you really believe they mistook the LARGE stars and stripes as an Egyptian flag?
Not trying to flame... I just shouldn't talk politics or diplomacy on an everquest forum, I'm far too passionate about these things.
Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-19-2002, 04:00 AM
Do you know how many American's have been saved by Israeli intelligence?
How many American military personnel survived combat because Israel turned over untold numbers of virtually intact Soviet Military Hardware from the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars for the US to study?
How many American targets are saved because the Mossad finds out about a plot against them and either tells the US or neutralizes the terrorists themselves?
Make no mistake. Israel is our friend. Our only friend in the region. As she has been for decades. Unlike the Arab nations, who still support the very terrorists who scream for death to the US.
Nafai Nyef
08-19-2002, 02:26 PM
Our support of Israel is one of the very reasons the arabic nations still support terrorism against us. You heard some of the @#%$ that Israel is pulling on the Palestinians? Oh yeah, we'll give you your West Bank. Except we're going to put tanks smack dab in the middle of it and kill innocents to punish you for the actions of Hamas, enforce curfews on your citizens at gunpoint, shoot missles from choppers at residential buildings where we believe terrorists may be hiding, cause massive collateral damage while looking for terrorists without even regarding you as a people, manipulate politics by pretending to be interested in peace and negotiations when we hold all the cards and you none and a peace agreement is as good as a surrender, and retaliate against your terrorist attacks with extreme military force and then become indignant when , surprise surprise, you fight back with terrorist attacks.
Yay Israel. Just the sort of country that we'd like to be our best friend in the middle east.
King Flamelord
08-19-2002, 04:23 PM
With all due respect the only reason Israel does anything for us is we supply them with weapons. Yes, the Arab nations are mad at us because we support Israel. The simple fact of the matter is, the United States throughout the 20th century needed more and more oil. At one point our domestic oil output was such that we could threaten an oil embargo and the rest of the world would have to capitulate to our demands (see: The Suez Crisis) but the United States use of oil domestically and militarily has long since exhausted the majority of domestic oil.
So naturally we turn our eyes to the Middle East, we see of course that because of the volatile nature of the Middle East (many of the nations were just then throwing off European hegemony) we would need to establish ourselves politically and militarily in the region. We chose Israel, probably in large part because Israel was closely linked with Britain at the time and some of the other Arab nations were leaning on the Nazi side of WWII.
We picked a side, Israel, we decided we would use Israel as much as we could to secure the resources that we need. The Israeli's aren't a backwards people that can easily be controlled though, and they use us right back. If we had picked another country, say, Iraq (we were at one time very close with Iraq) to be our Middle Eastern ally as it were, then do you doubt that Israel would be staging terrorist attacks against us?
This is international diplomacy, you don't play to make friends. You play for power.
Smartypus
08-19-2002, 05:20 PM
Gaaah, I always disagree with Aidon, but, this time I gotta agree 200% with him...
Talyena Trueheart
08-19-2002, 09:41 PM
Have any of you been to Isreal? The country is tiny. Do any of you even know why the 'occupied territory' is occupied? It was Isreal who was attacked and they won the war. The fact that any arabs even lived there speaks volumes about Isreal. They conquered an invading military force yet didn't wipe out the population. As a matter of fact, a large part of Isreal's population is arab and they take part in the voting and politics in Isreal.
Isreal has shown restraint that we here in the US would never show. If a group of Indians got together and started bombing supermarkets, malls, and night clubs in order to get their land back, we wouldn't be trying to negotiate with them, we would squash the organization as quickly as possible. Yet, the Indians have a better gripe since we were the invaders where Isreal was the nation being invaded. And if you really believe that Arafat wants peace, explain why he turned down a peace agreement that would give them about 90% of what they wanted. The arabs (in charge anyway) have no intentions of ever coming to peace with Isreal and will not rest until Isreal ceases to exist.
As for invading Iraq, yes, it should have been done long ago. When the weapons inspectors were kicked out of the country, actions should have been taken, but the commander in cheif had much more important things on his desk (well, under it anyway) and wouldn't be bothered. Of course, he also turned down chances to have Osama turned over as well, but I don't even want to get started on that slacker. Even though we should have delt with Iraq long ago doesn't mean we should wait now until they attack us. We gave him the option of returning weapons inspectors and he declined. We either take action now or we will be doing cleanup for a disaster that will make the world trade center attack look small.
Renbeny
08-20-2002, 06:56 AM
A short note about the tangent argument that seems to be running through this thread : pick sides in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and you're abdicating the murder of innocent people. Both sides are guilty. Both sides should be held accountable. Excusing the actions of the Israeli military against the civilians of Palestine just because they're our friends is the same as excusing a good friend of murdering a murderer. This situation is ancient and there is no clear-cut "he started it". Both sides are guilty.
Now, on Iraq.
The U.S. initiative against Iraq is proof-positive that the military of this nation, mainly its intelligence and special forces sectors, and its commander-in-chief are incompetent. The average American's support of this initiative is also proof that said average citizen does absolutely no investigation of his own, instead choosing to believe what we're told to believe.
The nation of Iraq is a dead nation. Most Americans view the Gulf War as inconsequential and small in comparison to the scale of some of its past wars. While its true that the American body count was low for the Desert Shield/Storm operations, that "war" destroyed Iraq.
Let me put this into perspective. Remember our nation's outrage at the loss of two buildings and three thousand innocent lives. In no way am I trivializing that incident, but let me say this - most of Iraq lays in rubble, and millions of innocent people are dead or dying due to direct or indirect effects of the war. Now, we all know how much the loss of three thousand of our fellows, our friends, or family members impacted our lives. Imagine that number multiplied indefinately. Because the death won't end, maybe ever, even if we don't arrive in Iraq.
Right now, Washington, D.C.'s air is so polluted as to place the entire city on "Code Red" in regards to its atmospheric content. That's pretty bad. Compare this to Southern Iraq. In Southern Iraq, American and U.N. fighter jets and ground soldiers fired so many rounds of depleted uranium ammunition that breathing that air for 1 month will do as much harm to your body as a 2 pack a day habit will over 10 years. Most infants don't make it past 6 months. The average life expectancy of children born and living in Southern Iraq is 3 years. Over 1 million children in Southern Iraq alone have died -since- the war.
The war effort wasn't what you saw on television. Take some time to dig deep and look at what was bombed during the war. Enemy encampments, enemy war factories, those things are normal. 425 dead in a Baghdad suburb miles away from the fighting from an errant U.S. bomb. Churches bombed. Medicinal factories bombed. At one point, Iraq offered some of the best free health care in the world. Now, they can barely treat the most basic of illnesses, due to their losses during the war, and it compounds the general illness of the populace.
The Iraqi educational system was also regarded as one of the best in the world. Now, most of the country's educated citizens are using what resources they have to get the hell out of their homeland, and with good reason. This leads to a sort of downward spiral in regards to the turnover of educated adults entering society as a whole. Less educated people means less schooling means less education as a whole. People with all the desire in the world to leave their country -can't-, because they lack the education needed to earn the resources needed to escape, and they can't find those educational resources no matter what they do.
All of this is meant to strike as close to home as it can, for you to imagine your home like this. And it won't get any better. U.N. trade sanctions on the entire country cripple Iraq's economy. They don't have the money to recreate their health care or educational systems. They don't have the resources to mount the massive clean-up effort needed to make Southern Iraq hospitable again. Iraq is hell on Earth, and its people deserve anything other than more suffering and death.
Now. Back to the "incompetent" factor. Saddam Hussein needs to die, and he needs to die now. The man's actions are destroying the country. His refusal to allow U.N. inspectors into factories where he manufactures nerve gasses and low-scale atomic weaponry are costing millions of his countrymen their lives. His actions are unforgivable and punishable by death. Not the people he leads. If we were anything worth our salt, we could find him and take him out. But we can't, or we won't. Either we don't care, or all of us are so caught up in the image of the "Axis of Evil" that we'll see that entire area of the world vaporized before we stop to look at what we're destroying. In the end, the Iraqi people shouldn't be made to pay for Uncle Saddam's mistakes. Because they have once already. And if this initiative goes through, they will again. And I guarantee you, he'll be alive at the end of this one, too. Who knows what state Iraq will be in as a whole.
Now. Some of you are deadset on war. I can't change that. I'm trying to present you with an alternate side of the argument, with information that you might not be privvy to because the news doesn't give it to you. It's there for you to find, it's public record, but like most public information, the actual public is fed what is felt it needs to be fed. And I know some of you are going to just blow me off. But for a moment, just think, and take me with a grain of salt. Just concede one point to me, believe -one- thing I said. If you honestly believe one thing I said is true, doesn't that feel... horrible? And you didn't know it. Now, let's take the argument that the Iraqi wants the American dead, that the average Iraqi man or woman hates our country so much that the entire nation would suicide bomb ours.
Don't you think, if your media tells you this, that theirs, with a fascist, openly media-controlling father, tells them another thing? Do you honestly believe that the average Iraqi man or woman wants anything to do with America after what's happened? And if they knew the truth, that their government is leading them into genocide, that they wouldn't do everything in their power to comply and help?
Let's put it another way. One million Americans dead, hundreds dying every day. Saddam says to George, stop what you're doing or more die. How do you, as the average American, powerless to stop anything, with the knowledge that, in this nightmare scenario, nothing will stop Saddam and more -will- die... how do you feel?
Leave Iraq alone.
Smartypus
08-20-2002, 08:17 AM
One morning Saddam Hussein called Bush. "You know George, I had the most wonderful dream last night!"
"Oh yeah?" replied Bush.
"Yes, I dreamt that every house in America flew the Iraqi flag that say, in Arabic, 'Allah is great, long live Saddam Hussein!'".
"Thats very interesting, because I had a similar dream last night! I dreamt that there was a very big flag flying over Baghdad and it had something written on it."
"What was written on it?" asked Sadam Hussein.
"I don't know, " replied Bush, "it was in Hebrew."
Talyena Trueheart
08-20-2002, 08:58 AM
Saddam Hussein needs to die, and he needs to die now.
Leave Iraq alone.
Ummm, ok, sure. We will just give Chuck Norris a gun and a knife, drop him off in Iraq and all our problems will be solved. Yes, he needs to die, but it won't be easy and it won't be pretty.
At one point, Iraq offered some of the best free health care in the world.
There is no such thing as free health care.
The Iraqi educational system was also regarded as one of the best in the world.
There is no good in an education system that teaches children that those with beliefs different than theirs should die. Here (http://detroitnews.com/2002/nation/0202/27/a08-427611.htm) is a link about the Saudi funded Islamic Saudi Academy here in the states. If they teach stuff like that here, imagine what they are teaching at home. And the Saudi's are one of our better allies in the region. This is from the story.
The 11th-grade textbook, for example, says one sign of the Day of Judgment will be that Muslims will fight and kill Jews, who will hide behind trees that say: "Oh Muslim, Oh servant of God, here is a Jew hiding behind me. Come here and kill him."
That is hardly what I would call a good education system, and those aren't things you teach your children if you really want peace with Isreal or even the US with our Jewish population.
Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-20-2002, 10:05 AM
With all due respect the only reason Israel does anything for us is we supply them with weapons.
The U.S. is also Israel's primary trading partner. Israel is the only nation in that region with Western ideals.
Also, considering the largest Jewish population on the planet lives in the United States...I think Israel is our friend for more reason that weapons.
Especially considering that up through the Six Day war most of Israel's weaponry was obtain from Britain and France.
Have any of you been to Isreal?
I spent six months in Kiryat Eckron about 10 years ago. No, American's cannot truly understand just how much constraint Israel shows the Palestinians.
Even before this latest intifada, terrorism and death was a daily occurance in Israel. 18 year old boys and girls being stabbed and shot as they travelled to and from their posts. Busses of school children being shot at. A nation where a lunch sack forgotten at a bus stop by a tourist brings six square blocks to a stand still until the military could ensure it wasn't another bomb.
Those who say both sides are equally at fault, have not researched the matter.
How many Jews are permitted to vote in Palestinian areas..or any other Arab nation?
There are Arab members of the Ba'it Knesset (Israeli Parliament). How many Jews sit on the governing bodies of the various Arab nations?
In 1948, some 600,000 Arabs heeded the advice of Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, and Transjordan and evacuated their homes in Israel to clear the way for the Arab armies to "drive the Jews into the sea". David Ben Gurion asked those Arabs to stand by the Jews and fight for the independance of what was to be seperate Jewish and Arab nations in Palestine. They would not. Israel won the war. Those Arabs who stayed had the same citizenship and rights as the Jews, and they and their decendants do to this day.
At the same time the Arab nation expelled 800,000 Jews from their collective borders.
While the Arab nations left their brethren in filthy refugee camps, and using them as Anti-Israel propoganda, Israel took in the 800,000 Jews who were expelled.
To this day there are only two nations in the Mid-East who have permitted Palestinian Arabs to have citizenship. Israel and Jordan.
The Palestinian people are sorry pawns of their Arab brethen. Bred and raised in filth, pestilance, starvation, and misery to be frontline soldiers in a guerilla and propoganda war against a foe the Arabs have never managed to defeat in head to head conflict.
Meanwhile they cry for a place in Israel. Israeli blood, sweat, and tears have turned what was considered to be the armpit of the Mid-East into a vibrant, modern, thriving nation, despite being surrounded on all sides by enemies who sought nothing less than the extermination of every man woman and child who lived there.
So naturally we turn our eyes to the Middle East, we see of course that because of the volatile nature of the Middle East (many of the nations were just then throwing off European hegemony) we would need to establish ourselves politically and militarily in the region. We chose Israel, probably in large part because Israel was closely linked with Britain at the time and some of the other Arab nations were leaning on the Nazi side of WWII.
Your history is off.
The Arab nations rebelled against the Ottoman Empire during WWI (Lawrence of Arabia...). They still were under the influence of France and English until WWII. Israel was not formed until 1948, after WWII. The United States did not become a major supporter of Israel until the 1960's when it becaem obvious that the Arab Nations had thrown in completely with the Soviet Union. Until that point Israel's largest supporters were France and England.
Oh and the Suez Crisis occurred in the '50's when Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal, it helped precipitate the second Arab-Israeli war.
Racmoor
08-20-2002, 11:09 AM
Hmmm...To the above poster that said our military is incompetent. I resent that. Over and over our military has accomplished every objective given to them. The problem is that politicians will not give them a strategic objective and tell them to accomplish it. A politician does not make a good general.
You're quite frankly ignorant of the power of the US military. Trust me. If the president declared war on Irag and gave the military the mission of removing Saddam from power. It would be accomplished.
But no. They get rules like, invade kuwait but don't cross the border into Irag.
Since the government has started implementing half measures (See Korean War), the only loser has been the U.S troops forced to fight a death struggle with one hand tied.
Racmoor
Rolloss
08-21-2002, 09:44 PM
"Ummm, ok, sure. We will just give Chuck Norris a gun and a knife, drop him off in Iraq and all our problems will be solved. Yes, he needs to die, but it won't be easy and it won't be pretty"
This is a horrible idea! Chuck Norris couldn't do this, obviously, one man vs thousands! Plus, he's a TV actor, he's not even really that good! You'd need AT LEAST Jackie Chan, Arnold Shwartzenevnergegernernr, Mr. T, or Darkwing Duck to pull of a mission like that!
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