View Full Forums : Druid seems to get a rez....


elty
08-17-2004, 10:26 PM
By looking at the spell name and description

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5880&source=Test

seems to be druid's AA rez, most likely has a sort of long recast time.

Good thing about this is:

You can rez the cleric

Bad thing about this is:

You are still screwed if you don't have a cleric / pal / necro, which the chance is fairly high IF you are the main healer. Ha, good luck running thru 6 zones full of see invis mob.

Another bad thing is cleric is gonna whine

My take: ok this is gonna be useful to give cleric a rez box during wiped given it shorter cast time.

Other stuff

- SotW is getting some more lame upgrades... more heal, but not more DS
- WotW is also getting a new form, or a lame upgrade
- RC is gettign some more lame upgrades. From 16 counters to 25 counters, which means if you can't cure something vby 1 RC3, chacnes are you still can't do it with RC6
- advance Dire Charm

Shaman finally get their gruop heal to MGB with. Of cuz, there is some even more overpower canni 5 v2.0? grats shaman for having some of the most ridiculas mana regen that stack with everything ever.

Bard is getting mini defensive (25% melee/ spell mitation, 20k max damage, 1 minute) and an increase aggro AA to work with it.

Enchanter is getting a 3000 hp emergency rune. If that is not enough, you have a -9000 hate boggle as well

Wizard's new familar is goign to give 12 mana per tick, however the dps pet is still a rip off

Mage is getting various form of defense, from 50% melee or spell mitation, to 25% increase in DD focus, or a 50% lower aggro buff

Scirocco
08-17-2004, 10:52 PM
I wouldn't buy the description all that much. I saw another listing that has a message about getting summoned to your corpse without any XP regained. Call of the Wild sounds more like a summon to corpse spell than a res spell.

elty
08-17-2004, 10:56 PM
Cast by you: You call the spirit of your fallen colleague back to its body.
Cast by other: Someone calls the spirit of the fallen back to its body.

Scirocco
08-17-2004, 10:59 PM
That description can go either way.

Here's the text string from the latest patch files I was referring to:

%1 is attempting to return you to your corpse. If you accept this, you will still be able to get a resurrection later. Do you wish this?

elty
08-17-2004, 11:10 PM
Well, i rather call that as a 0% res. But I guess they mean the same thing

Avendesoral
08-17-2004, 11:12 PM
If it has a ridiculous refresh time they can keep it. More than 5 or so minutes is going to defeat the purpose.

Drake09
08-17-2004, 11:13 PM
Game Description: Revives a slain ally, restoring a great amount of their lost experience.

Scirocco
08-17-2004, 11:23 PM
Yes, I read the full lucy text. That's why I said don't put too much stock in what the description says. Having been through this for several betas, SOE often puts in false spells and false spell descriptions just to generate threads like this...:)

Kireiina
08-17-2004, 11:27 PM
I'm impressed by the fact they're building AA's from templates during beta. Good to see they've really taken the time to do this expansion right.. =/

Aluaeia
08-17-2004, 11:52 PM
Well, the bad press was too overwhelming with GoD for them to risk doing their normal halfass job of things.

Delowen
08-18-2004, 12:27 AM
I'm interested in these Form of the Wild 1 abilities on lucy's, they are all differnt animal illusions.

Form of the Wild 1 (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/newspells.html?source=Test&date=2004-08-17%2018:14:04)

Aswell as these Boon of the Forest ones

Boon of the Forest 3 (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5879&source=Test)

Summon Pets: WARDDruidPet8 x 1 for 300 sec

Aidon
08-18-2004, 01:41 AM
Yes, I read the full lucy text. That's why I said don't put too much stock in what the description says. Having been through this for several betas, SOE often puts in false spells and false spell descriptions just to generate threads like this...:)

Sneaksy hobbitses

Nilwean
08-18-2004, 01:44 AM
I'm interested in these Form of the Wild 1 abilities on lucy's, they are all differnt animal illusions.

Form of the Wild 1 (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/newspells.html?source=Test&date=2004-08-17%2018:14:04)

Aswell as these Boon of the Forest ones

Boon of the Forest 3 (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5879&source=Test)

Summon Pets: WARDDruidPet8 x 1 for 300 sec

Form of the Wild is a Beastlord AA.
Boon of the Forest is the upgrade to Nature's Boon.

Glynna1
08-18-2004, 02:55 AM
Call of the Wild, why would a cleric need this? Can't be cleric aa

Lotharun
08-18-2004, 03:17 AM
...SOE often puts in false spells and false spell descriptions just to generate threads like this...:)

No way with this one. That would be like playing with fire. This is in there for a reason.

Orolmy the Fire Caller
08-18-2004, 04:33 AM
Form of the Wild is a Beastlord AA.
Boon of the Forest is the upgrade to Nature's Boon.

I don't think Form of the Wild is a Beastlord AA, sure the animals used (Wolf, Bear, Chokadai, Alligator, Tiger) are largely Beastlord pets, the spell is an ILLUSION spell, not summon..

You'll never see me out of Tiger form, if it's true :)

But Boon of the Forest won't ever be seen, as I never bought past Nature's Boon I, it was that awful.

Kireiina
08-18-2004, 05:04 AM
The beastlords have been requesting a beastial form AA, which includes a melee buff, for quite some time. Given the close match between illusions and warders I'd think it's a pretty safe bet that's what it is.

Onetree Tallbarque
08-18-2004, 05:26 AM
They are running these ideas up the flagpole to see if anybody salutes them (ie. returns to the game). In the absence of a strong negative backlash (which I doubt they are expecting at this point) you'll probably see these changes go live sometime soon; after a round or two of tuning, hopefully. It is time to take big strides again.

I'd like to see that dire charm's animal level cap raised to 63. More high level animals to choose from, too.

Looks like Black Wolf's index number is 42 and Bear's is 43. I wonder what animals 91, 356 and 63 map to.

Soothing Words 3 would be nice. Cast by you: "Your soothing words calm the savage beast."

Doesn't Call of the Wild sound more like something a dark forest does to you?

Cast on you: A National Geographic Explorer photographer takes your picture as you run into the forest dropping clothes along the way. :D

Emelia
08-18-2004, 05:38 AM
No way with this one. That would be like playing with fire. This is in there for a reason.

They copied previous spells and simply changed a few values to make a new aa skill. They want a "summon to corpse" type spell, so they take the closest spell that you can think of, obviously Resurrection, and paste it and replace the effect "Resurrect player and restore 90% exp" with their new summon-to-corpse-without-exp effect. You never even see the game description for AA's outside of Lucy; You can see the AA description in the AA window, but that is different than the spell description. Want proof? You know there's an in-game AA description for SOTW, but there is no spell description on lucy: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3279&source=Live

Also, Enchanters have had an instant self-rune (Eldritch Rune) since Planes of Power. And I believe the Mind Crash aa's are for wizards, not enchanters, since they are right above Prolonged Devastation (the upgrade to wiz aa Frenzied Devastation probably), and the "cast on" text is the same as Concussion (wizard spell), not Boggle (enchanter spell).

Islington
08-18-2004, 07:08 AM
Mob has slain party members 1 thru 6.

/tell Druid Ok, you've got Ports, fixed duration invis, EB, and Levi. Go do my rez. Bitch.

/tell group AFK for 5 minutes, waiting for my rez.

Glynna1
08-18-2004, 08:05 AM
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5824&source=Test

Could this be an aa for everyone?

Eridalafar
08-18-2004, 09:21 AM
The gate aaxp is interesting, I hope it will be a general one for ll the casters class and usable as a second exodus.

Eridalafar

Glynna1
08-18-2004, 09:39 AM
I'm thinking it might be a high level costing aa for non gaters. Seems they give non casters about everything else but really not a bad idea

Lordon
08-18-2004, 12:49 PM
Mob has slain party members 1 thru 6.

/tell Druid Ok, you've got Ports, fixed duration invis, EB, and Levi. Go do my rez. Bitch.

/tell group AFK for 5 minutes, waiting for my rez.

HAH, that is funny. Man I can see that one coming.

Tlaman
08-18-2004, 01:38 PM
If I get a way to rez player in GoD trials Ill go do the corpse run to rez the clerics. As it stands now 90 percen tof the time I already have to go fetch the cleric and escort him to a rez this way i dont have to deal with the cleric fetching part.

Does anyone else notice that when you cast foliage shield its ALWAYS the cleric that drops invis first?

Mahes
08-18-2004, 01:53 PM
The beastlords have been requesting a beastial form AA, which includes a melee buff, for quite some time. Given the close match between illusions and warders I'd think it's a pretty safe bet that's what it is.

We actually received that in GoD. SOE copied a disc we were given long ago, added an illusion that matched our race's warder, and charged us for three levels of it to be even slightly useful.

Anyway, suffice it to say, this is probably a BST AA and not DRU. It looks more like a BST version of the Mage's elemental forms than anything.

And let me tell you, if you've ever actuall ybeen in cat mode and melee'n...you'll never, ever, want to buy this AA. Motion sickness extreme.

As for the druid rez, grats if you all get it, but I personally am not too thrilled with it based on the complete lack of any rational reason for this class to have this ability. Nothing personal.

Mahes

Teaenea
08-18-2004, 02:07 PM
As for the druid rez, grats if you all get it, but I personally am not too thrilled with it based on the complete lack of any rational reason for this class to have this ability. Nothing personal.

Mahes

You mean other than that druids in other games, MMORPG and Pen and Paper games get similar abilities? Or other than the fact that more GoD trial runs have been lost due a groups cleric dying and often being the only casualty?

There are plenty of rational reasons. From both lore and gameplay standpoints. It personally wasn't something I was shooting for, but, I'll certainly buy the AA if it exists.

Wyte
08-18-2004, 02:23 PM
Does anyone else notice that when you cast foliage shield its ALWAYS the cleric that drops invis first?Yeah, but that's just because I cast Innate Camo right after foliage... you just can't trust it.

Zarath
08-18-2004, 03:49 PM
I'd like to see that dire charm's animal level cap raised to 63. More high level animals to choose from, too.
As if DC to 45 wasn't bad enough, now it is going to 55 and you want it to go to 63? Do you have any idea whatsoever the kind of havok and horrible imbalance that that would cause? Gates of Discord would look tame compared to that!

Teaenea
08-18-2004, 04:00 PM
As if DC to 45 wasn't bad enough, now it is going to 55 and you want it to go to 63? Do you have any idea whatsoever the kind of havok and horrible imbalance that that would cause? Gates of Discord would look tame compared to that!

While I don't think it should go to 63, You need to consider that DC2 will most likely be a level 70AA (DC is a level 60 only AA) an any zones that a level 70 is likely to raid/exp in is unlikely to have mobs of DC level other than rare/uncommon mobs. DC is one of those AA's that look Amazing on Paper, is great when you use it, but, just not used as much as one expects due to its limitations.

Eridalafar
08-18-2004, 04:46 PM
Then let call it reincarnation and put it with a random illusion from a mob from the zone that the summon to corpse is done. And put a 5-15 mins for the duration of the illusion (that will persite even if getting a ress).

Now it is better?

Eridalafar

Glynna1
08-18-2004, 04:58 PM
I can only say my disappointment in doing trials ( tipt/vxed/ikk 1,2 or 3 ) if you need the flag and the cleric dies, you are pretty much done. Every time I have tried to do Ikk trials I have failed. Now you can say I am not a good druid but it happened every time, just bad luck. I did not win trial 3 which I needed for BiC till we had two clerics. I was told time and again that two clerics were needed. Why? Because of the risk of one dying and then no rez.

Zarath
08-18-2004, 05:02 PM
Brenlo essentially stated that there are plans to seed the zones with DCable mobs.

Still it overpowers the classes because it makes Pet classes out of non pet classes and adds a hefty DPS increase. You guys already have our nukes, now you want our pets also?

Glynna1
08-18-2004, 05:07 PM
You guys already have our nukes, now you want our pets also?

What am I missing here? You guys? Whose pets do we want?

Teaenea
08-18-2004, 05:20 PM
Brenlo essentially stated that there are plans to seed the zones with DCable mobs.

Still it overpowers the classes because it makes Pet classes out of non pet classes and adds a hefty DPS increase. You guys already have our nukes, now you want our pets also?

PoP is "seeded" with DC mobs as well. It's still not as usefull as many believe. DC is an ubelievable AA when in use, no doubt. They just aren't usable in most situations. Don't forget, druids have been a charming class since level 16. The ability is nothing new or unexpected.

Firemynd
08-18-2004, 05:21 PM
Zarath: Still it overpowers the classes because it makes Pet classes out of non pet classes and adds a hefty DPS increase. You guys already have our nukes, now you want our pets also?

Yep that's it. And next we're asking for mod rods. Better get busy on that anti-druid petition or we'll be wearing your robes too.

Seriously, the restrictions and limitations of DC make the ability far less useful and viable than a pet that is available to you 100% of the time in every zone, will not attack you or your groupmates if dispelled, doesn't aggro mobs on its own, can be summoned if lost due to pathing, can be suspended so you can invis and travel, can hold aggro when there are more than 3 others on the mob's hate list, can be recreated immediately after it dies instead of waiting 72 minutes and trying to find another ... and now the damned thing travels with you across zone lines.

And who said we aren't a pet class? There are two types of pets in the game: summoned and charmed. Druids have been charming pets since level 14. DC is a charm, with all except one of the many restrictions inherant to charm, some of which are mentioned above.

Now summon yourself an anti-paranoia pill and some water to chase it down. Oh wait, I can summon the water ... damn, another ability druids have stolen from mages!

P.S. Teaenea, it's 14. Befriend Animals (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=245&source=Live).
P.P.S. Oops... none of this has anything to do with the original topic...

~Firemynd

sadcleric
08-18-2004, 05:26 PM
I can only say my disappointment in doing trials ( tipt/vxed/ikk 1,2 or 3 ) if you need the flag and the cleric dies, you are pretty much done. Every time I have tried to do Ikk trials I have failed. Now you can say I am not a good druid but it happened every time, just bad luck. I did not win trial 3 which I needed for BiC till we had two clerics. I was told time and again that two clerics were needed. Why? Because of the risk of one dying and then no rez.

This problem is a result of bad content design. Alternate solution is to allow casters to bind infront of the trials. Another idea is to make the mobs friendly in those zones so you cleric is not going to die running back to the trial.

DemonMage
08-18-2004, 06:10 PM
Better get busy on that anti-druid petition or we'll be wearing your robes too.


Can we wear the robes even if the petition does go through? =-( Wood elf robe models please!

Scirocco
08-18-2004, 07:00 PM
You guys already have our nukes, now you want our pets also?


Heh...don't you mean you have our nukes? After all, we're the worshippers of the thunderstorm, the hurricane, and the tornado. Mages just sort of play around in the dirt trying to make things out of it....:)

Zarath
08-18-2004, 07:25 PM
Why don't you get back to hugging bunnies and making sheep nervous- we Mages have destructive elemental forces to bend to our iron will. Go on and want to worry with "nature" and the "wilderness" we get to tamper with extra planar forces far more powerfull than any drizzle you can play with. So continue thinking you are great and powerfull offensive forces...just remember you may controll a wildfire, but I controll Fire itself. Have a nice day, hippy.

The fact of the matter is Druids for some inexplicable reason retain the ability to match Mages in nuking power. I don't care if you have since the beginning of beta when Aradune was concieved, the fact of the matter is you are a utilitarian class that is also being moved to the second best healer role and possibly in line for a ress/call to corpse spell. How, again, is it logical for you to retain over half of the offensive edge of a focused Damage class? That is my issue. With DC pets going to 55 they will most certainly out preform Mage pets unless we get serious upgrades.

Stormhaven
08-18-2004, 07:48 PM
Yeah, better watch out for all those "animal" tagged mobs....
Sweet, we can out perform mage pets in two zones!

Scirocco
08-18-2004, 07:49 PM
I'm not sure, but I think he wants a sheep pet, now.... :whistle:

Stormhaven
08-18-2004, 07:52 PM
Actually, the way he describes mages, they kinda sound like <a href="http://www.turner.com/planet/static/">CAPTAIN PLANET</a>!!!

Balise
08-18-2004, 08:01 PM
it logical for you to retain over half of the offensive edge of a focused Damage class?

Yes. We deal damage as well. Shamans and Clerics also deal damage..its just that they do much more than deal damage where as druids....deal damage, and heal.

Mages are balanced moreso against Wizards, Necros, and Enchanters than the priest classes, even though all are taken into consideration. It just happens that out of all three priest classes, druids are the ones that have the best nukes.

elty
08-18-2004, 10:20 PM
stupid old augment... is like why cleric can nuke and heal, but wizard can only nuke?

Zarath
08-18-2004, 10:50 PM
It's a matter of degrees. Sure Clerics can nuke, but for way less than a Mage or Wizard. Again, why should Druids be allowed to keep thier utility and damage (and are getting a boost with iDC) while they retain the second best heals?

By the way, it's nice to see leaders of the community, especially those entrusted by Sony to be a representative, sophmorically throwing mud instead of contributing anything to the discussion. We know both of our veiws, Scircco and his ilk think it's fine and dandy for Druids to continue on this power trip, and most Druids agree because at first no one wants to loose power. However I am providing a counter veiw- Why should it continue? Why should you continue to reach mage nukes and with the DC mobs that a developer has said will most likely be seeded in zones possibly outdo them while retaining all of your abilities?

Scirocco
08-18-2004, 11:58 PM
Lad, you need a sense of humor. And to not take yourself, or this game, too seriously.

Frankly, I didn't think you were being serious when you made your comment about druids getting "your" nukes. Look at off-color remarks about sheep (based on your intimacy with sheep, I figured you were a Dartmouth grad, and everyone knows they have a sense of humor :whistle: ) So, I responded in the same vein.

The fact that you were serious make my sheep sad. She so wanted to meet you.... :(

Suva
08-19-2004, 12:06 AM
Because while we have decent nukes and heals, we can either nuke or heal. If we are in a prominent healing role for a raid/group, we have little mana/time to spend on nukes. Same goes for if we are needed for dps (and who in thier right mind asks a druid to replace a dps class unless desperate), we have little mana extra for heals.

For DC, it's rarely used. Animal tagged mobs are far and few between and usually limited to like 2 existing in the entire zone worth getting. When I kit ein plane of fire, a DC'd spider basically just keeps the mob from regenning between nukes and does very little dps-wise. Most the time I don't even bother to grab one.

The rez spell I am happy for. It is rather difficult making the CR running with a cleric in tow to escort them to the corpses. This would allow a druid to make it to the corpses and maybe rez the cleric and make a very long CR into one shorter. It won't replace the need for a cleric as it looks like the rez won;t replace xp. A longer timer on the refresh would mean if it was a spell, having it mem'd always and thus taking up a spell gem all of the time or a high costing AA.

I've often heard the arguement druids are in tune with nature and it is nature's way to die and return to the earth form where you came. But nature also gives life to begin with. The ability to restore that life is not so out of touch for a druid.

Stormhaven
08-19-2004, 01:31 AM
Increase druid nukes, piss off mages, wizards.
Increase druid heals, piss off clerics, maybe shamans.
Increase druid DoTs, piss off necros, maybe shamans.
Increase druid charms, piss off enchanters, maybe necros.
Increase druid utility, piss off clerics, maybe shamans, paladins, rangers, enchanters, bards, beastlords, etc, etc, etc.

Druids use a sense of humor when dealing with posters like you Zarath, because it is all too common to have other classes decide to dictate to us when our class is too powerful. No matter what vein of druid functionality gets tweaked, unless it's a nerf, there will always be at least one class who will tell us that the druid is already too powerful as is.

While the most patient of posters can regurgitate the explanation of "why skill_01 is not powerful enough" over and over again, most of us don't bother. Why? Well, first off because this is a <i>druid class board</i>, and secondly because we have a pretty good search engine that can be used to easily find old threads which already contain an explanation. And finally, because no matter how often druids explain "our side," it's almost a given fact that "a_random_player_from_classX" will not accept the explanation, and stick stubbornly to the old adage that the druid is just an over-powered uber-class that never needs to be upgraded.

However, if you're trying to form some sort of rallying cry on how the "leaders of the community" are behaving, please feel free to continue with the understanding that neither mods nor admins are censored in any way, shape, or form on this board which differs from any other of our posters. Nor is Scirocco's <b>voluntary position</b> with SOE determined by how or what he posts on external websites (with the common sense exceptions of releasing SOE-only data and similar offenses, of course).

Zarath
08-19-2004, 03:12 AM
I need a sense of humor? Eh, technically I started this thread with the "level 63 DC would be greatly over powering" and you were the one to start with the (admitantly joking) belittling comments and I responded in turn. I suppose that I was just expecting more of a serious discussion. Perhaps I was wrong as I have seen how "balance" threads tend to wind up here.

Suva- if the zones are seeded as Brenlo has said he "sure hopes" happens then the availability will probably be no issue. The higher level means higher mob damage, even getting into the areas that stretch rational power. Besides, the idea that it is OK for Druids to do both heals and nukes at the second best level as well as retain utility beause you can only do one is old and a bit skewed. By your logic it would be ok for me to get CH and such because I would be nuking anyway? Or for me to get Enchanter mezzes, because I would be nuking anyway? Hell, let's throw em both in and give me an option. What matters is what can be done. And I am not talking about when the stars align and Jupiter is in the fourth quadrant of the abyss when it's Taco Tuesdays at Wild Jim's Taco Trough, if there is adequate healing Druids can nuke. If healing is needed a Druid can fill that role while retaining damage ability that other classes pay for.

Stormhaven- Maybe you'll understand a Mage's dillema now.

If we want upgrades in pets, we anger Beastlords (OMG teh Mahgs are too strogn!) and when we want them to be better than DC pets we get Druids and Enchanters on our back. (Necro's never seem to care really)

If we want upgrades in utility or defense, well they don't fit our class and we wind up angering everyone for being "overpowered."

If we want upgrades in nukes, we not only upset Wizards but we at the same time wake the slumbering Evoke Druids (and one in particular) that have on this very board campaigned to nerf Mage nukes because they were surpassing Druid nukes.

In general Mages want what they are supposed to be about- Damage. So when we try to bump up our nukes we get the Evoke Druids on us. Then we see perhaps our most unique aspect of our class being handed out to charmers on a silver platter and when we say anything about it get the same reception.

In the end, what is the difference? The Mages are seeking upgrades in thier primary role- Damage. We are a heavy hitting DPS class. Druids are not designed to be a DPS clas. You have too much defense, utility, and healing power to be a DPS class and yet when it looks like you will be getting an upgrade that will oust an actual specialist class they then become the badguys for trying to hold the Druid down.

Firemynd
08-19-2004, 03:36 AM
they then become the badguys for trying to hold the Druid down.

Well, you *are* on the druid message board. When you try to "hold the druid down" in his own home, you're likely to end up as Booboo fodder in the back yard.

I'm not going to bother arguing your points. They pretty much defeat themselves.

~Firemynd

Nimchip
08-19-2004, 07:26 AM
Chill out, how in the barren hell are our DC2 pets gonna threaten your lvl 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 Pets? Aren't you forgetting you're getting upgraded pets too? There is no way in hell we can out-dps a mage. If there is then come here with the facts and prove it. Even with a gimpy DC pet, tell me how we can out-dps you. Oh, let's not forget those pet focus effects!

For christ's sake.

teialiscious
08-19-2004, 10:12 AM
Oh wait, I can summon the water ... damn, another ability druids have stolen from mages!
I laugh IRL :grin:

Stormhaven
08-19-2004, 10:35 AM
So this is a "do unto others" thing. You don't like it when other classes do it to you, so you return the favor? Sorry, I don’t like it when any class calls for a nerf of another classes’ abilities “just because”. Taking away a classes’ core ability because you don’t think it makes sense? You’ve got players with five+ years invested in their characters, you can’t go and redefine what that class should or should not be able to do at this stage or stop improving one of their core spell lines. How would you feel if mages had gate and COH removed from their spell list because it had nothing to do with the elemental arts?

The only time that druids said anything about mage nukes is when mages were complaining about new druid nukes compared to mage nukes, and ignoring the damage done by pets when calculating DPS. The way you guys downplayed your pets and made your pets sound (their pathing sucks, you can't use them in many zones due to their AI, they don't proc enough, they’re “situational” only, they're melee is broken right now, etc, etc) having a pet shouldn't be much of a big deal since they’re so limited by your own admissions – but we both know that’s not the case. Wizards get on your case for the same reason - getting "wizard level" nukes, and then adding a mini-tank pet's DPS would have brought you above the overall DPS of wizards. Mages were defined as damage through your elemental summoning abilities; wizards had the pure direct damage role. Should we even talk about the fact that the mage bolt series were also usually downplayed due to their targeting limitations?

Not only that, even if you “seeded” DC pets in various zones, we’ve seen what those “seeded” pets are like (think HOH: mini-wrulans, PoV: mini-froggies). Now true <i>non-DC pets</i>? Yeah, they can produce some <b>insane</b> damage. But to even try and call them “situational” is a big leap. <i>If</i> the mob is labeled as an “animal” (a big “if” in itself), and <i>if</i> the mob is under the charm’s level limit, then you can get some huge DPS numbers in exchange for the mob possibly tearing you a few new orifices when charm breaks. But we’re not talking normal charm here, we’re talking DC.

Aladriel
08-19-2004, 10:54 AM
I'm kind of surprised that this mage/druid nuke thing is still being dragged up after 5 years hehe. Druids have had nukes from day 1 when EQ went live. Their first nuke was level 1 Burst of Fire. Our nukes are nice, they can add some dmg to the group although the casting times are insane. Often in exp groups I have to start nuking at 80% to get the nuke to hit before the mob drops :) But I have no problem with that, I'm not a wizard nor do I want to be one. But let's be realistic. I have never been asked to a group for DPS reasons...I'm asked for my heals/buffs/evac/DS.

When mages argue this point, they always talk about nukes. They almost never mention the fact that their pets are their real means of DPS. If you think people invite mages to group for their nukes, you're wrong IMO. When I invite a mage to a group I am looking at their pet dmg, rods, CoH etc.. Yes your nukes are a great addition to your pet dmg, but they're not your specialty either. Mage pets are the best summoned pets in the game. Seems you don't realize that, for you, nuking is not your primary ability either.

Charmed pets cannot be compared to summoned pets. I'm surprised that you're not more upset with chanters on this point. They can have insane charmed pets and they have the utility spells to control them. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with enchanter pets. I personally never even got DC1. I spent all of my pts on heal AA's, buff AA's, MGB, SoTW, etc.. But I am primarily a healer druid, that's how I like to play the game. I will probably get DC and ADC just to see what it's like. You have to understand though, pitting a level 55 pet against a level 70+ mob is not gonna make druids like mages hehe

Someone has already listed all the spells that pet classes have to make it all so easy. And I can speak to this because I also have a 65 Beastlord that I play. And yes, I leveled her up the hard way, no PL'ing. My druid and bst were on the same account until my bst was 65. So I know how to play a pet class and I know how nice and powerful the pets are and I know that they are insanely better than any charmed mob. Sure chanter pets do more dmg, but summoned pets are much more reliable and you can have much better control over them. Now you can zone with them without losing their buffs, you can put them in your pocket for travel, I could go on but others have said all this.

Not sure why you're focusing your frustration about mage issues on druids, not sure why clerics do it either. Y'all should be more focused about getting your own classes changed, rather than worry about what druids have or don't have OR getting druids nerfed. Any time a class gets nerfed, every other class suffers. Seem most people don't realize that.

Kalthanan
08-19-2004, 10:59 AM
Well, the bad press was too overwhelming with GoD for them to risk doing their normal halfass job of things.

I think that

I'm impressed by the fact they're building AA's from templates during beta. Good to see they've really taken the time to do this expansion right.. =/

was facetious. "Beta" is for testing functionality, not development.

Iilane SalAlur
08-19-2004, 11:16 AM
Sorry, to me I find it all hilarious. A mage complaining about druids getting a new dire charmed is like a druid complaining about mages getting a new CoH spell.

/boggle
/shakes head
/chuckle

Zarath
08-19-2004, 06:27 PM
So this is a "do unto others" thing.
No, it's an "overall balance" thing. I was illustrating just how you have, that when seeking upgrades we too bump into classes- including the "DPS Druids" and thier cohorts, the Charmers.

You’ve got players with five+ years invested in their characters, you can’t go and redefine what that class should or should not be able to do at this stage or stop improving one of their core spell lines. That's what this is about- giving other classes the ability to have pets equal to or better than a Mage's takes away a Mage's core ability. Regular charm was ok when it was temporary and not the fairly permanent 99% risk free (when in groups) powerhouse that it is. Dire charm turned the tables by allowing you essentially the same thing but without any fear of charm breaks. So you now will have a level 55 mob that will be the match of a Mage pet for the most part (barring some serious tuning of the level 55 mobs) that is 90% of a summoned pet. No, that doesn't hurt a "core ability" of the Mages at all. :bonk:

The only time that druids said anything about mage nukes is when mages were complaining about new druid nukes compared to mage nukes, Really? Remember GoD beta and
This Thread? (http://forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=6208) Allow me to show you a few choice posts.you guys havent seen the worst of it yet

Mage:
[Spells edited out because they are about the same as now]

the first nuke is fine.... monster summoning kicks ass, but WHAT IN BLAZING HELL?!?!? that better be a goddamn bolt cuz mages have almost always = druid nukes in the expansions, pulling ahead with no rhyme or reason is bull****, utter bull****.

And

The DD fight again.

We fought this with PoP. The mage PoP DD initially was higher damage than the druids. We pointed out that druid and mage DDs historically had pretty much been equal (while mages then branched out with a higher damage LOS bolt, while druids got a targeted AoE). Just prior to beta finishing up, a change was made to the druid DDs, increasing the damage to match the mage DDs.

If the spell listed above for mages is a DD, then it ought to be pretty much the same for both mages and druids. The efficiencies being roughly the same, I'll take the bigger boom, take you very much.

I trust that the druids doing GoD beta (and you know who you are!) will push for this when input is asked for druid spell changes.
There. Two expansions in which Sony tried to do the right thing and adjust the discrepancy in the nukes of a Preist class and of a DPS class and you have two instances in which Druids on this board pushed and pushed to get Mages nerfed or to get thier nukes to unfairly equal ours.

Wizards get on your case for the same reason - getting "wizard level" nukes, and then adding a mini-tank pet's DPS would have brought you above the overall DPS of wizards. Mages were defined as damage through your elemental summoning abilities; wizards had the pure direct damage role. Should we even talk about the fact that the mage bolt series were also usually downplayed due to their targeting limitations?
In a sustained fight a Mage should outdamage a Wizard (note the difference between outnuke and outdamage, something the Druids on this board often confuse) because that is how our class is designed. Second best nukes and the best pets combine for an unrivaled offensive punch. And we pay a price for it, a price of defense and utility. Remember that.

Oh, and as far as the last sentance yes it was viable as there were sever targeting issues. They were easily blocked and , like ranger arrows, able to hit mobs in thier way instead of the target.

Now, as far as some of the other posters go...
Sorry, to me I find it all hilarious. A mage complaining about druids getting a new dire charmed is like a druid complaining about mages getting a new CoH spell.

/boggle
/shakes head
/chuckle
No, you completly miss the point. CoH does not infringe on a Druids role- infact it works in tandem with it oftenly. HOWEVER, a Druid's Dire charming of a pet does indeed stomp a Mage's toes simply because WE are the ones that are meant to have the mean pets and big nukes, not you.

I'm kind of surprised that this mage/druid nuke thing is still being dragged up after 5 years hehe. Druids have had nukes from day 1 when EQ went live. Their first nuke was level 1 Burst of Fire.
Every casting class has some form of DD. What irks me is the power of your DD compared to mine.

When mages argue this point, they always talk about nukes. They almost never mention the fact that their pets are their real means of DPS. If you think people invite mages to group for their nukes, you're wrong IMO. When I invite a mage to a group I am looking at their pet dmg, rods, CoH etc.. Yes your nukes are a great addition to your pet dmg, but they're not your specialty either. Mage pets are the best summoned pets in the game. Seems you don't realize that, for you, nuking is not your primary ability either.
No, pet damage is one of the problems, especially if the only think that separates Mages (A DPS class) from Druids (A utilitarian secondary healing pushing for better heals mind you) is 80 DPS. Yes, 80 DPS is a big chunk of what I do. :bonk: No, most of my damage comes from my nukes, which again, equal yours. When you invite a Mage you are looking at sustained damage, through a combination of pets and nukes, not just the pet.

Our pets are the best summoned pets in the game, yes. However Direcharm will oust our role as the best pet class if it is left unchecked.

Charmed pets cannot be compared to summoned pets. I'm surprised that you're not more upset with chanters on this point. When the charmed pet becomes almost permanent (for the duration of the grind session) because of availability (Seeding!) and because DC does not break then they essentially become summoned pets with a few minor drawbacks (no invis, etc)


So I know how to play a pet class and I know how nice and powerful the pets are and I know that they are insanely better than any charmed mob. Sure chanter pets do more dmg, but summoned pets are much more reliable and you can have much better control over them.
So the pet is more powerful because it can zone etc (is "reliable") when the charmed/DC pet does more damage than it and has more HP?


Not sure why you're focusing your frustration about mage issues on druids, [...] Y'all should be more focused about getting your own classes changed, rather than worry about what druids have or don't have
Because when we try to bring up our issues and get things fixed (Mages still are shafted from the GoD nukes) we get Druids saying "Oh no, we need the same nukes too!" and we are right back where we began. When Druid then get better pets than us... see?


OR getting druids nerfed. Any time a class gets nerfed, every other class suffers. Seem most people don't realize that.
It seems that most people do not realize that giving Druids pets ~ equal to that of a Mage while giving them the same nukes AND AA's to lower the cast time (thus bumping Druid nuke DPS almost to and over Mage DPS) that it hurts Mages. We pay a price for our pets and nukes, and then to have the most important part of my class handed over to someone for a few AA's pisses us off, and needs to be changed.


As far as Druids outdamaging Mages, if the current abilities of level 55 mobs are any indication and if Sony's past "upgrades" to pets are any indication, you will indeed outdamage Mages because you continue to have nukes that match ours. Just because something is one way does not mean it should occur again when the content would overpower it. Charm is one, Druid nuking is another. There have been too many changes in Druid's healing ability to warrant the nuke gap between us to be so, well, non existant. Druids most oftenly outnuke Mages because of Quick Damage. Want to see some numbers on it?
[B]Intention: [/B]

Compare the base Magician and Druid direct damage spells of similar level and determine which has higher DPS in a chain nuking situation

[B]Assumptions:[/B]

1) Focus effects are ignored. Focus Effects are availible to both classes of equal potency, in effect cancelling each other out.

2) Specialization is also ignored, specialization is availible to both classes and again cancels itself out. In addition specialization does not change DPS only Damage Per Mana.

[B]The Web Page:[/B]
Magician and Druid Nuke Comparison with Quick Damage AA (http://www.jtbates.net/everquest/nukecompare.htm)


As you can see that once a Druid has Quick Damage Level 3 in the cases shown they have Higher DPS potential than magicians. However Bolt's were not included yet and I plan to add them this evening.

Now with bolts-

Lets compare Firebolt of Tallon to the best druid level 65 nuke.
Ancient Chaos Frost 1860 damage 468 mana 6.35 cast time 2.75 recast time
Total Nuke Time = 9.1
RAW DPS = 204

Firebolt of Tallon 2000 500 7.0 2.25
Total Nuke Time = 9.25
RAW DPS = 216

Difference in DPS of 12 in favor of the magician until you factor in Quick Damage.
QD3 reduces the druids cast time by 10% changing it to 8.91 Total Nuke Time and a RAW DPS of 208 leaving mages in the lead by 8 DPS at Level 65.

Now let's introduce the new big boy bolt:

Bolt of Jerikor
Damage 2600
Mana 625 (yikes)
Cast Time 7.0 Seconds
Recas Time 2.25 Seconds

That tops the best druid nuke Glacier Frost (2420 damage 585 mana) by 180 damage, 40 mana.

RAW DPS for a level 70 Druid will be 266 vs our 281, a difference of 15 in favor of magicians as has traditionally been the case.

Factor in Quick Damage 3 and the Druids RAW DPS is 295 to our 281 changing the traditional thinking that mages have a DPS edge in nuking over druids with bolts.

Now do some of you see why giving Druids pet that can outdamage a Mage will hurt us when you already outnuke us?

corlathist
08-19-2004, 06:48 PM
Zarath, the problem is you compared unfocused spells. Which isn't terribly realistic.

A 45% Nuke Focus for example, will add more DPS to the spell with the biggest raw amount ie the Bolt.

a 23% Haste Focus is not only going to shave more time off the longer base casting time spell (bolt) but it will also lessen the difference between No QD and QD3.

Throw in a cleric buff 10%

Druid Frost: 2420 in 6.35 + 2.75 base
Druid Frost Fully Focused: 2976.6 in 3.6 (43% Spell Haste) + 2.75
Druid DPS: 468.7

Magician Bolt: 2600 in 7 + 2.25 Base
Mag Bolt Fully Focused: 3198 in 4.6 (33% Spell Haste) + 2.25
Magician DPS: 468.6

if ya were to factor in crits. youd find indeed a small dps edge in the magician using bolts.

Basically, its a side note to your arguement. but it is worth pointing out that focuses dont effect all spells equally. a 45% damage focus adds more damage to a 2600 point nuke, then it does to a 2420 nuke. same with spell haste, the larger the casting time, the more it shaves.

Arienne
08-19-2004, 07:31 PM
The fact that you were serious make my sheep sad. She so wanted to meet you.... :(Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwe!

Beastiality is sooooooo last year!

Regnon
08-19-2004, 09:57 PM
yet another useful thread, derailed by rants from non druids..

I am gonna go flame the mages about the um..smell of their earth pets..brb.. :burn:

Iilane SalAlur
08-19-2004, 10:23 PM
yet another useful thread, derailed by rants from non druids..

I am gonna go flame the mages about the um..smell of their earth pets..brb.. :burn:

Yeah, a sort of earthy, peaty aroma... (hastily adds) With a touch of lilac.

Zarath
08-19-2004, 11:53 PM
So why was this moved?

I still want to see how you justify having nukes equal to ours and better through Quick Damage as well as DC pets that very well can rival ours. Or even just why you still think that it is OK for a Druid to match Mage nukes.

Or are you simply going to hide behind the "It's always been that way" bulwark or duck behind the "We can't do both at once" barricade.

Palarran
08-20-2004, 12:50 AM
Dire charm is highly situational. Similarly, mages shouldn't be balanced around the ability to charm summoned mobs, right?

jtoast
08-20-2004, 01:25 AM
I posted this on another thread but it seems appropriate here too =P

I am sooooo tired of the whole "if you get this I want that" attitude. If you think your class is broken or needs some kind of an upgrade then ask for what you think it takes to fix it based on the game, not based on what some other class is trying to do.

What druids ask for shouldn't have any bearing on how to fix a cleric, mage, or any other class and vice versa. If Clerics were given Invis if yet another piece of gear with a clicky port/dot/Sow was added to the game I seriously doubt druids would all stand up and scream/yell/whine or cry about how unfair is was.

Is it just not possible for us to try to look at the game as a whole instead of with a 5 year olds "its my ball and I'm going home if you dont play by my rules" mentality?

Nimchip
08-20-2004, 05:07 AM
So why was this moved?

I still want to see how you justify having nukes equal to ours and better through Quick Damage as well as DC pets that very well can rival ours. Or even just why you still think that it is OK for a Druid to match Mage nukes.

Or are you simply going to hide behind the "It's always been that way" bulwark or duck behind the "We can't do both at once" barricade.

Well since it was moved i can go directly to the point.

Read - DC pets CANNOT(read) CANNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT rival your pets. (Are you still reading? - ok here we go)

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5495&source=Test
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5485&source=Test
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5480&source=Test
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5473&source=Test

HI, new mage pets!!!! :wavey:

Why is it ok to equal nukes to you? Because
(A) you use them a lot more than we do,
(B) You have pets which dramatically increase your DPS, enabling you to be a "DPS class"
(C) Did i mention we're always healing and not nuking? Especially on raids.
(D) Don't even think about dots... a mob with some of our dots will have some dps but not as much as a Mag can do.
(E) We're mostly invited into groups to heal or support heal
(F) :spam1: :sleep:

Iilane SalAlur
08-20-2004, 05:29 AM
I've had enough of your subjective claims. From all you have said, I am starting to think that you believe our Booboo pet is an unfair dps advantage over mage pets too.

Show me some solid figures of the unfairness. Tell me exactly what you mean by "hefty" dps, is it 1 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 15 dps? For example, how much of an dps increase do u think a DC pet will offer in OoW? Compare that to how much of an dps increase your level 66+ mage pets will offer in OoW? Once you have those figures, come back and show us why you think it is unfair.

Anyway, this is the rez thread not the DC thread. Please start a new thread if u really want to talk about the new DC.

As for the summon to corpse AA that druids and shamans seem to be getting in OOW, it seems both necros and sk are up in arms about not getting it. Personally I do not think necros require this kind of AA, although something could be done to reduce the cost of their EE rez. As for SKs, *shrugs* I believe this aa is more suited for priests than a necro-hybrid class but thats just me.

Arienne
08-20-2004, 10:13 AM
yet another useful thread, derailed by rants from non druids..Actually, one post can't derail a thread unless there is some "back and forth" from others.

ie... we derailed our own thread by responding to the wrong post. :/

aalandra
08-21-2004, 03:40 AM
I hope druids get some call to body or rez spell. because my DE butt is staying in POT till i get rezed. druids SOE invis and port. so i look at it this way. u are better at dealing with the CR run than my cleric is she cant invis soe or evac. druids can and port also. this will be a good thing for all

Erianaiel
08-22-2004, 01:55 PM
Is it just not possible for us to try to look at the game as a whole instead of with a 5 year olds "its my ball and I'm going home if you dont play by my rules" mentality?

Experience in the Priest's Covenant suggests that the answer to your question is a big and resounding NO.

Unfortunately


Erianaiel

katahn
08-25-2004, 12:57 PM
Experience in the Priest's Covenant suggests that the answer to your question is a big and resounding NO.

Unfortunately


Erianaiel

Very sad, but true. Honestly, if you have an issue with the game or content design why take it to other players? As if the druids here (or clerics in EQClerics or Mages at the Mages' Compendium) have any real say in content or design in the first place. All any of the class sites can do is share information and debate, and maybe provide feedback. If you think an idea is bad, talk about why the idea is bad, not how (insert your favorite class to hate here) is (overpowered, unbalanced, performs unnatural sexual acts with farm animals, or whatever else.)

Blaming druids for druid nukes being on par with magician nukes is about as intelligent as complaining to a golden retriever about the Republican Party. :bonk:

"I think improving DC's max level is wrong for the following reasons...." Focuses on the idea, allows for a debate.

"You moron druids are already overpowered how dare you ask the devs to improve the level of DC...." is not what I'd call a productive way to start a debate. Oh, fyi, the example I just used was exaggerated for effect :D

I know that I'm not overly excited about druids getting heals and rez if its done in a vacuum because outside of that clerics don't honestly have anything to offer a group that competes against the other utility and DPS a druid can provide. The more the gap is closed in healing (to where healing is made sufficient for the need presented by content), the more non-healing aspects are considered in deciding who to take, for instance clerics saw quite a bit of this in Luclin. :eek: :(

The reason I'm not real excited about Omens of War and its AA is that I haven't seen anything in there that looks like its addressing the huge deficits of having a cleric main outside of being a healer, or *the* healer (which I tend to view as the cleric classes' "white elephant" anyway.) I'm all for druids and shamans being capable group and raid healers, I'm sitting here praying we don't get Luclin 2.0 as a result. Of course, I suppose I could always play a druid ;)

Kulothar
08-28-2004, 01:04 AM
So, if they raise the level of DC will it even matter since 99% of the animals are not tagged properly?

I am happy to get the summon to corpse since it is useful. I may not give us balance but it is a possitive step.

Druids are supposed to out DD Mages since Mages get Pet DPS. Druid pet DPS is either pitful or dangerous. The improved DC from what I saw ment that a lv 70 druid could DC a lv 55 mob if he could find one tagged as an animal. AT lv 70 that will be good enought to farm high level tradeskill ingredients... maybe...

Why does it matter anyway?? The module will probably be like GoD where neither can get a group anyway unless a raid and they are lucky to get an open spot.

brum15
08-31-2004, 03:24 PM
Druids are supposed to out DD Mages since Mages get Pet DPSactually no.

that would be like saying a cleric should be able to out melee dps a paladin since the paladin can tank also--obviously false.

druids have healing whereas mages are only dps. and a mage pet alone vs a druid pet/charm pet or DC pet does not equal the druid healing. both have utility outside (druids-ports,evac/sow/tracking/snare)(mages COTH, summoned items, slightly better ds) so if they have equal dd dps---the mage pet would have to be cranked up considerably to equal druid heals.

so therefore mages do probably deserve better dd dps then druids. they are after all a dps class instead of a healing class.

katahn2001
08-31-2004, 05:06 PM
actually no.

that would be like saying a cleric should be able to out melee dps a paladin since the paladin can tank also--obviously false.

druids have healing whereas mages are only dps. and a mage pet alone vs a druid pet/charm pet or DC pet does not equal the druid healing. both have utility outside (druids-ports,evac/sow/tracking/snare)(mages COTH, summoned items, slightly better ds) so if they have equal dd dps---the mage pet would have to be cranked up considerably to equal druid heals.

so therefore mages do probably deserve better dd dps then druids. they are after all a dps class instead of a healing class.

Personally the entire "specialist" concept in classes is a horrible one in an MMORPG. It really is. Said specialists either become overpowered for group content, or the generalists end up being underpowered for it. Trying to balance the two without leaving the specialists out of work or without adding additional abilities to the specialist to make them more of a generalist likewise is doomed to failure.

The fix for warriors is a prime example. Basically they were given "spells" that could be used to resolve their class weaknesses, just as paladins and shadow knights have spells. I don't care if you call it endurance or mana, or disciplines or spells, they are still triggered abilities running on a finite "fuel" that regenerates slowly over time. In essence, warriors were made "pseudo-hybrids."

In terms of the priests, if the intent from the EQ1 Dev team is for us to be "team support" ala the defenders of CoH, then its only logical that any priest should be suitable for that purpose with differant pros and cons in terms of their form of doing so. Then, in terms of our damage dealing capabilities, we should probably benchmark somewhere around 75% (give or take) of a comparable nuking or melee DPS class, depending on the form of our damage and its dependance on mana.

Now as far as DC goes... Charm is just plain broken. I am stunned they didn't simply code it to despawn the target mob and replace it with an appropriately powered mob based on class and level. Then when charm ends, the pet despawns and the "charmed" mob respawns, with "dire charm" simply removing the fear of said despawning. Then tuning nukes + dots + pet DPS becomes considerably simpler, and easier to adjust to whatever benchmark they think is appropriate. It also has the glorious benefit of making all the charm-enhancing AAs that enchanters took worthwhile, and doesn't produce overpowered results when the game shifts to uber DPS-low HP mobs.

Nimchip
08-31-2004, 09:33 PM
Now as far as DC goes... Charm is just plain broken. I am stunned they didn't simply code it to despawn the target mob and replace it with an appropriately powered mob based on class and level. Then when charm ends, the pet despawns and the "charmed" mob respawns, with "dire charm" simply removing the fear of said despawning. Then tuning nukes + dots + pet DPS becomes considerably simpler, and easier to adjust to whatever benchmark they think is appropriate. It also has the glorious benefit of making all the charm-enhancing AAs that enchanters took worthwhile, and doesn't produce overpowered results when the game shifts to uber DPS-low HP mobs.

You better get your facts straight first before coming in here. GoD mobs when charmed are weaker than when they're not. Go tell an ench to charm a mob in barindu and check the message they give out. Thanks.

Follun
08-31-2004, 10:18 PM
You better get your facts straight first before coming in here. GoD mobs when charmed are weaker than when they're not. Go tell an ench to charm a mob in barindu and check the message they give out. Thanks.

I think that was the point he was trying to get through in the first place, only to have it more detailed and specific on the player charming. Mobs only change when charmed in GoD, which is nice, but it only represents a very small fraction of the EQ world.

katahn2001
09-01-2004, 09:10 AM
I think that was the point he was trying to get through in the first place, only to have it more detailed and specific on the player charming. Mobs only change when charmed in GoD, which is nice, but it only represents a very small fraction of the EQ world.

Pretty much Follun nailed it. I have never played a charm-class except for a level 20ish necro who could charm undead (technically) but I never did ;) My apologies for getting the finer points of charm wrong for Gates of Discord :flipbg:

Nimchip
09-01-2004, 11:26 AM
Pretty much Follun nailed it. I have never played a charm-class except for a level 20ish necro who could charm undead (technically) but I never did ;) My apologies for getting the finer points of charm wrong for Gates of Discord :flipbg:

So where else can you charm again that's worth grouping at? PoN? PoS? Do you think these camps can take more than 2-3 druids? 2-3 enchs? (HoH). They don't represent a mayority either.

Stewwy
09-01-2004, 01:09 PM
The message you get from mobs in Barindu is solely from the fact that they can't use their innate abilities like procs, rampage, flurry, etc. It doesnt mean the mob hits slower or hits for less - it just means its not using its innate abilities. And this is a good thing - rampaging charmed mobs would wreak havoc on multi-pulls

katahn2001
09-01-2004, 01:58 PM
So where else can you charm again that's worth grouping at? PoN? PoS? Do you think these camps can take more than 2-3 druids? 2-3 enchs? (HoH). They don't represent a mayority either.

Um, why am I being flamed by you? All I said was that I thought charm (in general) was coded particularly badly by them (the developers) and instead should have been done in a way very similar to how its done in GoD. That wasn't a "nerf druid charm" post at all! If anything, a non-unbalanced charm design (in general) would make it easier to factor in charming (in general) when benchmarking the DPS of a class (any class) to the level they (the developers) think it should be.

I happen to know that druids don't do much charm-soloing, I do have druid friends after all *wink*, and I've read here folks talking about its limitations. My comments were more directed at the visiting mage, followed up by me pontificating about how I might do things better if I ruled the world ;)

beasthealer
09-03-2004, 08:56 AM
So where else can you charm again that's worth grouping at? PoN? PoS? Do you think these camps can take more than 2-3 druids? 2-3 enchs? (HoH). They don't represent a mayority either.

Place u can charm as enchatner that worth grouping?
PoFire, God - Tipt/vxed/sewer/riwwi.
Those are places i often group with charm enchanter.
For druid its.
PoS and that's it right now since we can't charm ****.

Nimchip
09-03-2004, 07:26 PM
.

Place u can charm as enchatner that worth grouping?
PoFire, God - Tipt/vxed/sewer/riwwi.
Those are places i often group with charm enchanter.
For druid its.
PoS and that's it right now since we can't charm ****.

Thanks for the info, but I meant as a druid. Glad you proved my point.

The message you get from mobs in Barindu is solely from the fact that they can't use their innate abilities like procs, rampage, flurry, etc. It doesnt mean the mob hits slower or hits for less - it just means its not using its innate abilities. And this is a good thing - rampaging charmed mobs would wreak havoc on multi-pulls

LOL... it means in fact your pet WILL BE weaker than regular mobs. Procs and flurry add to a mob's strenght too you know. But yea it is a good thing.

Um, why am I being flamed by you? All I said was that I thought charm (in general) was coded particularly badly by them (the developers) and instead should have been done in a way very similar to how its done in GoD. That wasn't a "nerf druid charm" post at all! If anything, a non-unbalanced charm design (in general) would make it easier to factor in charming (in general) when benchmarking the DPS of a class (any class) to the level they (the developers) think it should be.

I happen to know that druids don't do much charm-soloing, I do have druid friends after all *wink*, and I've read here folks talking about its limitations. My comments were more directed at the visiting mage, followed up by me pontificating about how I might do things better if I ruled the world

Actually that quote was a typo, i was trying to quote the druid above.. but i believe he was trying to clarify what you said so i left it alone.

I believe what you mean is Charm grouping... not soloing, since we're talking about grouping here. And yes, druids do a LOT of charm soloing in 60-65 level in PoS, but after that the exp is not worth it as grouping in KT or even Earth is a MUCH faster way to get exp.

katahn2001
09-07-2004, 12:58 PM
You mean using charm in a group? Can't say I've seen it done much, but if there are places for it cool. I think its a perfectly appropriate ability for druids to have (for animals), mages to have (for summoned), and necromancers to have (for undead.) I just think its coded really horribly, and I also think that calling druids a "pet class" based on the current implementation of charm and dire charm is laughable, about as much as saying magicians are a "crowd control class" based on elemental silence... :)

Then again, when did good sense ever stop trolls?

Baggwinn
09-10-2004, 07:57 AM
I thought I'd reply to this, although it maybe a little late but I try and ignore balancing issues and get on with blowing stuff up / healing etc.

(C) Did i mention we're always healing and not nuking? Especially on raids.
(D) Don't even think about dots... a mob with some of our dots will have some dps but not as much as a Mag can do.

The parse I added below is including just 1 DoT but I could have added a coupla more had I not been slacking. The parse is on Nijacka the Scourge in Inktu'Ta.

<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=5 bgcolor=#17386A><a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=154172><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>Baggwinn</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 0 (0.00 / Sec)</font></td><td colspan=16 bgcolor=#17386A align=right><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>Table by <a href=http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion><font color=#ffff00 size = -1>EQ Companion 0.794 *beta* (build 1165) </font></a></font></td></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>% 1</td><td>% 2</td><td>% 3</td><td>% 4</td><td>% 4+</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td>DoT: Swarming Death</td><td>20:57:01</td><td>20:57:43</td><td>00:00:43</td><td>2,160</td><td>9.7%</td><td>50.23</td><td>8</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>0.19</td><td>316 (1)</td><td>250 (1)</td><td>270</td><td>100%</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>60</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#dddddd style='color: #000000;'> <td>non-melee</td><td>20:57:02</td><td>20:57:58</td><td>00:00:57</td><td>20,014</td><td>90.3%</td><td>351.12</td><td>7</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>0.12</td><td>4147 (1)</td><td>2232 (2)</td><td>2859</td><td>100%</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>&nbsp</td><td>93</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>20:57:01</b></td><td><b>20:57:58</b></td><td><b>(00:00:58)</b></td><td><b>22,174</b></td><td><b>100.0%</b></td><td><b>(382.31)</b></td><td><b>15</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>0.26</b></td><td><b>4147</b></td><td><b>250</b></td><td><b>1478</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>
<table width = '100%' border='1' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' bordercolor='#0000ff' bordercolorlight='#000000' bordercolordark='#ffffff' frame='border' rules='all'> <tr> <td colspan=21 bgcolor=#800000><a href='http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?name=Nijacka+the+scourge'><font color=#ffff00 size = +1><b>Nijacka the scourge</b></font></a><font color=#ffff00 size = +0> - Damage taken : 22,174 (382.31 / Sec)</font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#cbbfa5 style='color: #000000;'> <td>Attack</td><td>Start</td><td>End</td><td>Duration</td><td>Dmg</td><td>Dmg%</td><td>DPS</td><td>Hit</td><td>Miss</td><td>Hit%</td><td>HPS</td><td>MaxH</td><td>MinH</td><td>AvgH</td><td>% 1</td><td>% 2</td><td>% 3</td><td>% 4</td><td>% 4+</td><td>DLY</td></tr> <tr bgcolor=#f9fac0 style='color: #000000;'> <td><b>Total:</b></td><td><b>00:00:00</b></td><td><b>00:00:00</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td><td><b>&nbsp</b></td></tr></table><br>


50 DPS from only 1 DoT is pretty High add 1 or 2 more on there and you have some really nice DPS that would easily rival a mages pet.

Scirocco
09-10-2004, 08:20 AM
Stack a couple more DoTs, and you'll look like breakfast at IHOP....:)

Baggwinn
09-10-2004, 08:44 AM
I'll try tonight with VoN and VoT added. I also Cold and Fire Debuff him on Inc.

Aaeamdar
09-10-2004, 03:56 PM
The problem with your DPS calculations, among others, is its failure to account for cast time. Coupled with the fact that Druid Dots are short lived (6 ticks on our good ones 7 with FEs), means that that cast time is going to cut into our nuking DPS.

Problem #2 though is the real killer to your theory. Pet agro = almost nothing. DoT agro = huge.

Problem #3 pet mana = effectively 0. DoT mana = a lot.

DoTs != pets by a long shot.

katahn2001
09-10-2004, 05:07 PM
Pets are only "0 mana" when they can be used on raids (pet push still means they can be told to go away) and where AEs don't chew them up and spit them out. It doesn't necessarily contradict your point, but you do your cause no service with an exaggeration like that, at least not in terms of what I remember about raiding and what I read on the beastie and mage class boards at any rate. *wink*

Baggwinn
09-10-2004, 06:24 PM
Problem #3 pet mana = effectively 0. DoT mana = a lot.

Look at the DoT I used. Then Look at my Magelo. That's DoTs taken care of. On trash you wouldn't use DoTs since the mob lasts so little time, on named mobs however it's a whole different story. The fight I use as an example lasted 58 seconds. On Inc., I lay down Eci's, then Swarming Death then Hand of Ro. No recast time lost. I don't bother to redo Swarming Death when it wears of on such a short fight since by the time I've recast the mob is near dead and the DoT would be a waste so I carry on nuking. There was no Bard in my Group. The nuke I used was Ancient : Chaos Frost with Wrath of E'ci. (Damn you Band of Dark Auras ><) With Chorus of Marr, VoQ, 15 FT, Koadics Heightened Focus, BoTN, MOTF, MCIII, it really is difficult to get LoM on a boss fight in a raid situation. I can toss 1 or 2 heals where needed without too much of a loss to DPS. Add Vengeance of Tunare in there and you're looking at 80 DPS from DoTs easily (VoT would be unfocused).

It's all dependant on the fight though. I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing on Barxt since healing is pretty much all I'll find myself doing.

Oh yar I Specialise in Evoc.

I also sympathise with the Mages however. I truly understand that when our mages saw a parse like that from a Druid they'd be understandably pissed off. However I can't see how Dire Charm could replace a Mages role as a pet class.

a) we need to find a DC'able "Animal"
b) we have to get it to the camp
c) show me some DC'able animals in Ikkinz and beyond :P

You also say about Aggro from DoTs. Last time I got summoned from dotting too much was on Aten Blob in VT using SoLR and that was at least over 18 months ago now. I've never had a problem with our tanks holding aggro with DoTs on a mob.

Pets however can be a real PITA on some situations on raids. AE's, the pets gotta be kept alive so the Mage has to stop nuking heal pet carry on nuking (or let pet die and make a new one but I dunno whats better since I don't play a mage) they gotta keep the damn thing under control and due to the whacked out game engine this isn't always possible.

I'll ask some of our mages to parse on some raid mobs with pet and nuke and get back to you on it.

Nimchip
09-11-2004, 01:32 AM
Baggwin not every druid has an Orb of Clinging Death... in fact casting a 0 mana/ click item should NOT be considered part of our abilities when being compared to mages.

Dots also are not permanent. A mage can have his pet up for most of a fight. As for controlling their pets... well

Torakun
10-15-2004, 07:06 PM
Just wanted to add, most mages are not too worried about that particular parse anyway. Burst DPS vs. Sustainable DPS is like comparing apples to oranges. Neither makes the other more powerful, but I guarantee most mages can burst DPS much higher than 380 with relative easy, without pet.

The parses I have done with sustainable DPS, which is more important IMO, show me being able to sustain about 220ish indefinitely over 5 to 6 tick fights. VoT, SD and a single round of Tempest Wind will accomplish this with the proper focus alone (and I am an alteration druid). Proper AA will increase this even further. For Tempest Wind and SD I am focusing it with Murams Anger (25% ID), and for VoT tribute Burning Affliction IV. For all of them Haste of Solusek. Then the intangibles or uncontrollables if you will, CA3 and SCF line. Discounting cast time, in a perfect world TW can account for 233 DPS on its own (perfect world meaning a 3 wave crit with max ID focus and evocation spec + SCM for mana considerations).
220 DPS is not stellar, but considering the utility of the druid class I don't think it disproportionately small.
My burst DPS does not come quite up to that 382 mark you parsed on yourself (alteration druid) but I can burst over 300 as well and still have a decent amount of mana left, probably not enuff to burst over 300 immediately again, but close. After that it would mean some butt time to catch up. But maintaining 220ish all day long is not a problem.
Obviously the reverse of that for me, and the concentration of my parses would be sustained healing per second. Even with longer casting times, stupid limit on focus and AA effect on percentage heals and the lower per tick count on regens over dots, my HPS far exceeds my DPS.

brum15
10-22-2004, 02:22 AM
220 DPS is not stellar, but considering the utility of the druid class I don't think it disproportionately small.

choking on my soda/ 220 sustainable dps is not stellar?????? heh maybe I have been playing my cleric too long, but I know if I could get 100 dps sustainable, I would be doing cartwheels. We are healing classes. dont ever knock yourself for 220 Torakun. any group I am in you definititly have a standing invite to. 220 sustainable and bringing superb backup healing (that could actually fill in the majority of places as the healer if I went LD) along with utility. Hell I would kick even a rogue out of group dps slot for ya.

Adrius
12-06-2004, 12:05 AM
If it has a ridiculous refresh time they can keep it. More than 5 or so minutes is going to defeat the purpose.
... its 10mins and obviously you must enjoy picking up your cleric from pok naked after they have died from mob aggro and taking them all the way back to the zone you where at and geting them a corpse summon?

Juniper
12-06-2004, 03:40 AM
Since somebody bumped this thread...

If you're going to use the skill, PLEASE for god's sake wait until the dead person zones. I see Druids use it constantly which is great, but as I don't have the ability yet I don't know if 'rezzing' the dead person while their zoning blows the ability or just resets it. That would really suck if it reset every time somebody forgot to type /who all deadperson and see if they actually finished zoning. Bah.

Padrick
12-06-2004, 09:37 AM
It does not refresh. If you use it and the person is zoning, AFK, says no, what ever it does not refresh.

Firemynd
12-06-2004, 11:57 AM
Most folks try to avoid zoning when they know a rez of any sort is being cast. It isn't that big of a deal, just make two hotkeys.

Target corpse and hit hotkey1:
/ttell Ready for summon?

When they're ready, use hotkey2.
/ttell Calling you to your corpse now...
/alt activate 404
/ttell Reminder, don't loot all until you get an exp rez!

If you see either of your hotkey2 messages has been 'queued', they're zoning for some reason, but you have plenty of time to duck out of casting, CotW is reset and you can try again.

~Firemynd

Juniper
12-06-2004, 03:11 PM
I guess I should elaborate - the player is still zoning from dying, not zoning after they appear at their bind point. I've watched the same druid blow the ability at least a dozen times on raids now because the guy won't wait for people to zone to bind.

Firemynd
12-07-2004, 12:36 AM
I guess I should elaborate - the player is still zoning from dying, not zoning after they appear at their bind point. I've watched the same druid blow the ability at least a dozen times on raids now because the guy won't wait for people to zone to bind.

You'll come to a public forum and complain about him but won't take a moment to offer some constructive advice. Even if he isn't a close personal friend or guildmate, you're obviously raiding with him on a regular basis; why let him continue wasting the raid's time? :whistle:

BTW, maybe he *is* using "/who all deadperson" ... would explain why he's blown CotW so often. That command can show someone as in their intended zone several seconds before they actually finish zoning in. Sending a tell is much more reliable, hence the suggestions in my previous post.

~Firemynd

Juniper
12-07-2004, 01:09 AM
He's the one who plays a Druid full time, not me.

Though I will pass the hotkey idea along. :thumbup: