<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>- The "base" population in the Tower of Solusek Ro now has the ability to summon. Please be aware of this the next time you enter the tower of the god of flame. [/quote]

What's base population?

The guards most liekly ...for example ones which wander near ZI.. Wizzies sploit kite them around that firey bit and solo them that way i guess its to nerf them doing that.


Tils

I just got access a few days ago and now they change them. Great. Actually I didn't plan on trying to solo them but I still don't like the irony. :mad:

Well /shrug. Pulled the one by zone in. it summoned me. Sentry of ro . Thanks for nerf SOE !

Translation: we can't fix our screwed up pathing or find some way to stop the exploiting and we don't care about soloers anyway, so we're just going to spend 5 minutes on a patch to make them summon instead of actually putting forth effort to fix it.

funny thing.. i saw some wizzies on SH, quad kiting at the entrance and taking advantage of the pathing there

i forget who put it this way but i agreed with it:

'i have lev, they don't'

so it wasn't exploiting. It was utilizing terrain, kinda like pinning mobs in a corner... or on the other side, like how i can't cast on a mob i can see perfectly well, cause there's a 1ft hill in front of it, or how rangers can't use bows if the mobs next to a wall or tree... (wtf is up with that, anyway? fix that crap, don't spend more time giving clerics more healing options...)

once soe gets over their fear of terrain (yeah, right), they can stop making mobs like this summon.

the question is... why do they fear us using terrain? if a mob can reach infinately across the z axis, why the hell is it not fair if i use lev to put a lil extra space between the mob and i?

'nuff rants, i don't even xp or farm in sol ro. just more stupid changes instead of fixing things that need to be fixed...

alyn cross

Yeah, funny the way mobs can use all sorts of exploits but that isn't a problem of course. :p

ok so with that logic....I have Soe....if i levi accross some ledge and a mob is unable to hit me or get to me unless he runs a long distance....so then when he does i jump back up and let him run back...then rinse and repeat...thats not sploiting cause he cant lev and i can! lol right

hehe...they were sploiting the pathing theres no way else to explain it.


Tils

If you're going to use that philosophy Tils then all zones should be a square box with totally flat surfaces. I don't see anything wrong with using a spell and terrain to your advantage. Besides, can't mobs attack anywhere along the X(or is it Y) axis? Worse yet your example. How does making a mob run after you long distances an exploit? Does that mean kiting should be nerfed?

I guess it all depends on the pathing though. I have seen the way those mobs path but never saw the pathing utilized while they were aggro. What do they do?

Try it in frount of a GM.....youll soon see


Tils

give the friggin mob an AI that will tell it it can't reach you then... and have it wander away, so if YOU want the kill, YOU have to chase it to somewhere it CAN hit you....

we aren't talking rocket science here... we're talking common sense.

alyn cross
forces unknown

That sounds good to me Alyn.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>so it wasn't exploiting. It was utilizing terrain, kinda like pinning mobs in a corner... or on the other side, like how i can't cast on a mob i can see perfectly well, cause there's a 1ft hill in front of it, or how rangers can't use bows if the mobs next to a wall or tree... (wtf is up with that, anyway? fix that crap, don't spend more time giving clerics more healing options...)[/quote]
They can't fix the archery problem easily. It's an acknoledged bug with archery and it's on their list of things to fix. However, the archery code is old, burried deep inside the guts of everything and not easily fixable. It's not like editing the spell data files like the cleric spell was, which probably took less than 5 minuets to implment the spell. By contrast fixing the archery bug probably involves dozens or hundreds of man hours, several coders, and a high probability of totaly breaking all sorts of things in the game.

You're supprised they didn't just slap together a quick fix for archery and didn't shove it out to see what happens? Look what happens when a patch breaks something. Now imagine it was something as basic as autoattack not doing the right amount of damage or working wrong. Can you imagine the amount of uproar such a thing would cause? Sony's right in taking their own damn time about getting this thing fixed right and fixed in a way that doesn't totaly break the game.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
once soe gets over their fear of terrain (yeah, right), they can stop making mobs like this summon.

the question is... why do they fear us using terrain? if a mob can reach infinately across the z axis, why the hell is it not fair if i use lev to put a lil extra space between the mob and i?
[/quote]
They don't fear us utalizing the terrain. They fear us exploiting a bug that causes a mob to not be able to get to you when it's obvious to a human that it could just go around the tree stump. The problem comes down to the fact that mob pathing, breaks down into a very very complicated computer science problem. In fact, it's got a whole branch of computer science devoted to it and it's many cousins called graph algorithms. It's the sort of thing where when someone comes up with a solution for it, the algorithm isn't named after what it does like the zip algorithm, but rather after the person who invented it, such as "Dijkstra's algorithm" which is used for solving single source shortest path problems (aka mob pathing).

The problem for EQ comes about that the time it takes to compute how the mob needs to get from point A to point B is primarily dependant on the square of the verticies the mob has to choose from. This is where bad pathing comes into play. If you double (2x) the number of points a mob has to choose from (and thus allow it to move better) the code will run four (4) times as slow. Since the mobs move around alot you can't have many vertices or the whole server will lag (and you know how much it sucks whenthe server lags). The trick to zone design is to minimize the number of verticies for a mob to get around. That's why sometimes a mob will turn around and go the opposite direction from you to get to you. The nerest pathing point is behind the mob from where it followed you to. The soloution is to add more points for the mob to follow but you just can't add as many as you want or the whole server would slow to a crawl trying to figure out how to move the mobs.

It basicaly boils down to the fact that Sony has to walk a tightrope in zone design. You can add enough points to a zone that even a supercomputer wouldn't be able to compute the path in real time. Sure the pathing would be perfect but it wouldn't be playable.

Since the game designers have to minimize the pathing points they know bugs will occur that will cause a mob not to get to you. To knowingly exploit this for your own gain is a violation of the rules and this is what players were doing. I'd rather the mobs summon personaly, than for someone to be able to exploit a bug and gain an unfair advantage over me in terms of XP gain.

<strong>ok so with that logic....I have Soe....if i levi accross some ledge and a mob is unable to hit me or get to me unless he runs a long distance....so then when he does i jump back up and let him run back...then rinse and repeat...thats not sploiting cause he cant lev and i can! lol right</strong>


Yes, that's not exploiting. Why would you think it was?

exploiting pathing is attacking a mob from a position where the mob can't defend or attack you back (the old example used to be attacking a mob from a roof). As long as the mob can get to you or attack you, then it's fine. And of course, you can use whatever spells or abilities you have to either slow down, or block the mobs movement to get to you. You just can't use the zone geometry to get him 'stuck' so his pathing won't allow him to move to a position where he can attack.

Rolaque
Saryrn

The chase stuff around a pillar going left then right is an old cartoon gag and also a problem that isn't solvable with pathing. With EQ the distance between pathing nodes is allmost allways larger than melee distance so doing stuff like this is possible in a lot of places. When pathing oddities make the effective pillar really large it becomes a problem especially when combined with high exp and loot mobs in an area. As somebody already said they don't have nearly enough computing power to add enough pathing nodes to make pathing smooth in a zone like Sol Ro.

There are other solutions they could try but some would effect game play significantly. For example a revamp of mob flee code to run for it when they aren't able to hurt an opponent. So a mob being kited flees at 75% health towards the nearest allied mobs and gets help. Mobs that if pulled a certain distance stop and go back for help. That would be a lot more intelligent on the part if monster but would also make the game a lot harder for classes that have adopted certain play styles.

Sony Logic:

You have a very big gun, one that shoots hundreds of miles.

You're enemy can only be attacked if you stand directly in front of him. No hiding in bushes, trees or around a hill.

You can only hit for 10, your enemy can hit for 800. You have 7k hp, Your enemy has 30000hp. Now is this fair?

If you try and do otherwise, you get banned, for not following the rules.

This my friends is buuuuuuuullllllshiiiiiiit.

When mobs can warp through walls and summon 1 person at a time and kill them.

When mob can hit you when you can't see them.

When mobs can magically summon you through a wall and you magically end up at the zone in. (Powater!)

So as long as all these bugs exist in EQ which they have since beta, I'll happily continue to nuke mobs from tall buildings, run with levi the short path so that I may live and win. If they choose to ban me for this they need to ban themselves for the same. If mobs are allowed to do it, then so are we.

Sony has no concept of "ground", "wall", "ceiling" as everything in their world can pass through these objects seemly at will. Totally slackass programming on their part isn't going to make me "pretend" I can't be just as cunning as my foe.

In the end, this is Sony's game, they make the rules. So they are free to destroy their game if they wish. It is their choice.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If they choose to ban me for this they need to ban themselves for the same. If mobs are allowed to do it, then so are we.

[/quote]

Are you 6 years old?

I think there is a technical term for the very early stage in normal child development where most children realise that argument is bogus, and stop trying it on.

soru

Damn, glad we killed RZ last night and I finally got my flag so I could go to PoFire, because I used to kite the ZI mobs in SolRo myself.

Wow Kal you just took a EQ discussion and made a personal attack out of it.

/em hands you a fu sandwitch.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>give the friggin mob an AI that will tell it it can't reach you then... and have it wander away, so if YOU want the kill, YOU have to chase it to somewhere it CAN hit you....

we aren't talking rocket science here... we're talking common sense. [/quote]


Better mob AI wouldnt really make for much of a game. A sensible Sol Ro would set 2 dozen guards at zone in to squash anyone who dared to zone in.

Good mob AI would have the mobs calling 2 dozen friends to herd you into a corner and kill you if you dare to attack them.

Good mob AI would ignore the warrior making insults about your mother and killing the guy in the back wearing purple.

Basically mob AI has to be bad to make the game interesting. So you cant really complain if specific parts of the bad AI would otherwise allow exploits if they weren't closed off.

I played a Neverwinter Nights module that had absolutely great AI. Made by the people at CODI. I'd played the module both before and after the AI was added. It was like night and day, but it also made the module harder to play over multi-player because of lag issues.

I loved it though and use it for single player modules. It's awesome to see four goblins standing guard outside a cave talking to each other using emotes and animations... then you sneak up and whack one. Two of them stand their ground and the third one takes off running into the caves.

I stood there for a moment dumbfounded... and then took care of the two goblins left behind. I entered the dungeon and was immediately snared by a trap that wasn't there before and had goblin archers lined up across a large pool of deep water plinking at me while I tried to navigate through stalagmites to get around the water.

Now that was fun. But in a massive game like EQ, you'll never see anything like that.

As I mentioned once over at the Sigil boards...there should be no such monster as "pathing exploits" or "z-axis exploits".

If a player can manage to get himself in a position where he can hit a creature without being hit himself...he wins.

One of the benefits of being a certain class is that you have certain abilities that a creature not of that class may not have. In this case, levitate.

Cheezy exploiting of terrain should just lead to instant DT :)

If you want to cry about something, at least cry about something that doesn't make you look like an idiot that want to use /godmode etc to beat encounters.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Wizzies sploit kite them around that firey bit and solo them that way i guess its to nerf them doing that. [/quote]

I'm pretty liberal in favor of the player when it comes to pathing abuse, but I watched a Druid absue pathing standing still in Sol Ro last week. I hope that was fixed.

Also, Bards, Druids, Necro's, Mages, Wizards...all use pathing Kiting in Sol Ro. I'm thinking so what as long you have to stay on the move.

I have an experience about exploiting using terrain.

Way back when I was a little druid I used to explore all the zones I went to when everything was shiny and new. Whilst running about in Freeport I found a tree I could "climb" and use it get on top of the walls that run throughout Freeport.

From this vantage point I explored Freeport from a completely new perspective. But it also allowed me to cast upon mobs on the ground leaving them no means to retaliate they just stood there and took it, although they were red con's our drones of doom line still landed.

I made a lot of experience doing this in a short period of time and made a lot of PP selling the FS weapons and sashes that dropped from the monk guildmasters outside the monk guild.

Until this point I had never needed to petition never needed to even wonder about Guide's or GM's and frankly was such a noob had not even considered their existence nor the fact what I was doing was an exploit. Well when a GM appeared I mavelled at his sword with particle effects then continued to dot a monk, whereupon he explained that what I was doing was an exploit I argued surely that if I was not supposed to be up here (on that wall) that the terrain should be changed, that I did not see it as an exploit since I was simply using the environment given to me.

Well the GM did not see it that way I got a warning (the only one I have ever had) for my naeivity and learned the lesson, regardless of our opinion its not what counts in such circumstances. Using terrain in such a manner is an exploit, use it if you will but expect an adverse reaction to what you want when you get caught, for caught is eventually what you will be.

Lare

People are confusing two different situations here.

(1) Going to a spot where it takes a mob a long time to catch up, possibly by a different route than the player took
(2) Going to a spot where a mob can't find any way at all to reach you, ever, which makes the mob stand still

#2 is the one that's definitely against the rules.

Edit: As Scirocco mentioned in the post below, there's a gray area with #1. It may be possible to abuse it, but it's not nearly as clear-cut.

Lare, in your case the mob could never reach you, no matter how long you stood there. In the hypothetical given above of levitating across a ledge or ravine, forcing a mob to run around the gap to get to you, the mob will reach you if you stand still on one side or the other.

That's a critical difference.

In between is the use of bad pathing to cause a mob to turn away from you and run some other path to try to get to you. In HoH A, for example, in one of the basements simply moving a step to the right or left along one wall would cause a guard coming after you to turn around and run back to the center before reaching you. There's no terrain feature that causes that....just bad pathing nodes. And yes, I consider this to be an exploit, even though the mob could eventually reach you if you stood still.

Bah, make the mobs Rangers and give them EQ and AM3 and hand them a nice big bow :) now try to use kiting.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'd rather the mobs summon personaly, than for someone to be able to exploit a bug and gain an unfair advantage over me in terms of XP gain.[/quote]

To me it is not that simple. If it was the case that the only legitimate way to solo in SolRo was to exploit the pathing, then fine. However, that was never the case. This patch is just one of laziness, not in coding, but in rules enforcement. All you have to do is put a GM in there from time to time, have them issue warnings, then suspensions to players with warnings, and the problem will stop. They are too cheap and too lazy to do this, so they ruin all soloing instead.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Bah, make the mobs Rangers and give them EQ and AM3 and hand them a nice big bow [/quote]

All the archery using mobs I have ever run across have had EQ from the beginning, starting in Black Burrow.

/sigh

Its still a pure and simple nerf of the zone.

Gee 1 more zone, you need Tank + Slower + Healer.

Agro Kiting, gone.
Root/Rotting, gone.
Kiting gone.

Its also not just a nerf to soloers, but rather any non traditional group.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Its still a pure and simple nerf of the zone.[/quote]

I don't see how I could sum it up any better than this. Wonderful, a week before the nerf of the zone, I should have been able to get in, but because of a stupid bug with backflagging I had to get a Lead-GM to manually flag my toon. Thanks for nothing SOE.


<span style="text-decoration:underline"><em>Not to derail the thread...</em></span>About the archery problem with walled mobs. Last time I checked there was what? ~150,000 odd plus EQ users @ $12.95/mo. + $tormhammer? We know good and well that they have the resources to get this fixed. Last time I checked, SONY was some multi-million/billion/whatever corporation.

Archery has been broken like this for as long as I can remember. I don't give a crap how deep the code is buried, it needs fixed. <strong>Plain</strong> and <strong>simple</strong>. The archery problem like this is having a cable ISP saying "It's raining out, our email servers do not work when it is raining."

/sigh Back to grinding

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Yeah, funny the way mobs can use all sorts of exploits but that isn't a problem of course.[/quote]

Funnier yet is how whenever these discussions come up people want to rate their own intellect on par with NPC mobs. :)

Wow, all these opinions on the "exploit" from people who never killed one of the Sol Ro guards.

I am the one that said "I had lev and they didn't" I also had an extended range item equipped and I spent 18 AA to get the casting time on Winter'r Frost down from 6.3 seconds to 5.7 seconds - because killing these guys was not easy and there was only fractions of a second lead time on them. (18 &*^%#$ AA for 0.6 seconds that SoE screwed me out of!)

I would have SoE up before I zoned in and gate out periodicly to refresh it. I would hit the post at the edge of the stairs to get some hight and lev over the stairs. The mob (unsnarabalbe and FAST mob) would take a SLIGHTLY longer path around the staircase and I would just barely have time to cast, turn hit the post and over the next stairwell. One mis-step and I was dead. Try getting a fast rez in Sol Ro on a server with only two guilds in Sol Ro.

It was not an exploite - what is an exploite is SoE shoving grouping down my throat by nerfing any good solo tactic Druids discover.

I don't think they were going after people like you, Jokund, but rather after the people who were using situation #2 as described above.

You just got caught in the crossfire.

It really should be a simple thing to fix: if a mob can't find any path to get to your current location, it should warp to you rather than standing completely still. These situations are rare, generally require moving to odd places in the zone, and should be easy to detect. Having to warp like that would not affect normal gameplay.