LETS BAND TOGATHER AND TELL THEM!
We need them to get tier 1, 2 and 3 feral armor and weapons
As far as I know there's no such armor!

PLease lets all tell Blizzard we demand feral armor sets

Wind

GL with that. The reason they don't have specific sets for feral is the same reason they don't have specific sets for shadow priests, Oomkins, etc. They put resto specific sets for druids b/c in all honesty, thats what we do for the most part in raids - heal.

Despite the lack of an official set, there are still many options for feral gear (if you are in a raiding guild). AQ40 has added plenty of feral gear (Guise of Devourer, Gloves of Enforcement, Thick Qiraji Belt, Mantle of Wicked Revenge). BWL has some nice gear that rogues gladly pass on (Taut Dragonhide Belt and shoulders, Boots of the Shadow Flame). There are feral weapon options. Draconic Maul is nice. TUF. And now the AQ40 2H, and the CC 1H mace. Blizz appears to be adding feral gear to appease feral druids. Hopefully that is enough.

The addition of a second set of armor for druids would only dilute the drop rate of other epic items that benefit the entire raiding guild.

I honestly don't mind healing. I've managed being MT a couple times in some 5 man runs of ZF, SM, Temple... NUking is fun but yea.

All those people who say they need a feral set, balance set, etc. Get over it. If you want DPS only, play like a rogue. If you want to be the MT then roll warrior, if you want to nuke it out play a mage. Sure you might tell me to roll priest if I want to heal. The thing is I don't just want to heal, I accept my role as it is.

And who doesn't want to wear full Cenarion set!

Thats exactly why I love my druid Trix. I have my feral set to grind/gank. I have my resto set to heal/nuke. It lets me do both without having to play an alt.

No, I'm not on top of the dps or healing meters, but i will show up on both (depending on the fights). I won't have the most killing blows in BG, but if alliance wins and I get honor and rep, who cares?

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/rewards-armor.html

Feral Armor Set!!!

There's already, and I say this while of course benefiting from it, an unfair proportion of druid drops from a lot of raid content because of balance or feral oriented items that have been slipped in over time.

I actually agree with windsaber, WHy should we get only a resto set when we are fully capable of having a feral set, i mean, it doesn't take much trouble to make a few items into a new set.
Sure we are healers but that isn't all we are meant to do, we should also be allowed to shift into different forms instead of having to watch little green bars dance.

The thing is I don't just want to heal, I accept my role as it is.



This is actually the exact same reason why a feral/balance set are needed. Or actually the reason all of the sets should cater to all of the druid aspects. The arguement that all we do in raids is heal, is a step backwards.

People do not spec balance or feral to heal. They understand that while there will be a time and place to use that ability, their aim is obvious in the talent choicing. Spec feral to melee, spec balance to nuke or resto to heal. Now I will say this even though it should be blatantly obvious. Every druid no-matter of spec, should melee (tank/dps), nuke and heal. That is using the full scope of the class. You may choose your specialty (and by specialty that implies main playstyle;i.e. melee(feral), nuke(balance) or heal(resto)). However you should do all 3 aspects.

With all that said. Why did bliz revamp the trees, only to strip that change with gear? Gear is 9/10 of the equation once you hit these end game raids.

There is no reason why there shouldn't be, and it is imperative that there will be feral/balance specific SET gear OR specifically hybrid SET gear available that KEEPS PACE WITH ADDED DUNGEONS (this is were Genesis is going to fall short). With that I mean stats that melee, nukers and healers can use. As well as set bonuses to strengthen all 3 aspects. This latter aspect is what is lacking in all these nice feral off-pieces. There is no set bonus. Set bonuses are highly underrated I view. Especially ones similar to the increased energy of Nightslayer or the reduced threat of Bloodfang and the Mage/Warlock sets. These types of bonuses can increase agro (and thus damage) ceiling by 20-30%.

Oh and you want to talk about set bonuses blowing things away, how about that 2-piece bonus on Plagueheart?!! Shadowbolts that steal life? Man am I glad I joined the dark side of the force. That coupled with the 8-piece bonus to Life tap (combined with Imp. LT talents) is going to increase warlock staying power significantly in both PVE and PVP.

In summary, yes....Druids NEED feral/balance orientated SET gear. Otherwise they may as well as delete the class, since a priest (with their SET gear) will be safer to the raid than even a resto druid. Because lets face it, a healing priest will outshine a healing druid given equal gear and player skill. Druids were once valued for their versatility, end-game gear has stripped them of that contribution.

Edit: And with regards to the PVP honor/rep gear....Any one can see that this gear is lightyears behind the increasingly powerful raid gear. This, is not even a consideration for the new end-game (AQ/Naxx)

PVP rewards are being updated in 1.11. They're being updated retroactively in fact, which is a bunch of cowpoop, but that's for another thread.

The problems as I see them are 1) There's already a disproprotionate amount of druid loot on a lot of loot tables. Adding more compounds an existing and frustrating problem to address one that people have other avenues to resolve. A few tough slots aside, there is plenty of leather in the game for feral and an increasing amount for balance. Making it a druid only 'set' only increases the frustrating of everyone else at the sight of yet more 'GDdroodloot'

2) to function on a raid, you need to be specialized. You can't keep people alive worth a darn in hybrid gear, and you can't tank a raid mob in gear that's concerned about maintaing a balance of +heal or +damage. It's just not the way content is balanced. I will occassionally shift and taunt a loose mob while wearing healing gear, but I don't expect to be able to tank in the same gear that makes my healing useful. I just hope someone in tanking gear sees it before I turn to paste.

3) The itemization system in WoW is incapable of creating equipment that is good for more than one thing. It's just a hazard of the way the whole system is designed. Genesis makes an ok stab at being feral/balance, but it still won't do either job better than an assortment of the 'non-set' druid appropriate gear already very available (see #1)

A lot of people really gimp their characters with the 'set' mentality. Wearing 8 pieces of stormrage stinks. It's just not very good for healing and atrocious for anything else. Maybe one person on the raid should wear it to rejuv the MT, but even that bonus is questionable because of the mechanics involved. 8 pieces of transcendence is outright crap for healing compared to what you can do with BWL gear. One priest should wear it on boss fights to keep the set bonus up, but otherwise nobody really has any excuse to be seen in 8 pieces of trans. There are a couple of classes whose 8piece bonuses are so good it's worthwhile in their opinion to wear 8 pieces. But there's no case where they couldn't do better in other respects by customizing their character a bit and not just accumulating their set. Things like shadowbolts that steal health are nifty toys, but in terms or raw raiding effectiveness are negligible. Any warlock who doesn't have renew and rejuv up any time they need to tap down needs to think about finding a guild with healers who aren't slackmonkeys.

There isn't really that much more "droodloot" in game than the other classes. It may seem that way since druids have a use for any stat in some way and maybe the fact that while there are a multitude of classes which can use leather (and thus a multitude was created), only 2 will regularly use it in end game (druid/rogue). However there isn't that much more in terms of what we can make effective in a usual raid environment. People getting angry about a class specific drop that isn't theirs, that's not my problem they can't wait. That's a problem with raider mentality. I'm personally tired of seeing "warrior" weapons drop to the bane of everyone else but that's just me. However I just glad that the lucky warrior can now make the raid go more smoothly, since they are one of the most important classes there (in my opinion).

You don't need to be specialized to function in a raid at all. I once thought that way too. Then I realized....No. That's just another downfall to people min/maxing and the use of Damage/healing meters. So a druid in a bunch of +dmg/healing gear with a good hybrid bal/resto build is useless?? Hell no. Not if they are using that to the fullest. Meaning healing when needed and throwing in some damage from range. Afterall that gear will help both nukes and heals. Will they rank high on the meters? No, they are splitting up their mana between 2 different jobs. But was in ineffective? No, they both healed and did damage. How many classes do that? And that arguement that always comes up, "If we wanted a druid nuking then we'd just take a mage." Or priest for healing on the flip side...No...
Can a priest do damage if they are more focused on healing? Not like a druid can. Can a mage drop a heal bomb and combat rez that dead priest/tank? No. So yeah that's BS arguement #1. No body takes note of the value of hybrids because they are so mesmerized by the stupid meters. No matter how you cut it that druid made great contribution to the raid. Just because its not readily apparent doesn't negate the fact.

Just FYI, when we "raided" the middle east in the Gulf War, you know what we used quite often? F-15/E multirole fighter/attacker. Basically a fighter with bombs. A jet that can both bomb and dog fight is one of the most valuable weapons in our arsenal. In fact it revolutionized the way we fight. So yeah, hybrids aren't important...just don't tell the U.S. military that, it might break our whole game plan...

Point is hybrids are usefull, peolple just do a crap job about planning for the unplannable. Which is where druids shine in my opinion.

As for itemization in WoW. No arguement there. But you know what? In the military if a process is broke, I'm expected to fix it. So Bliz...fix it. Not that they read here or anything. Anyways overall bliz did a good job, which is why I still play. Just not a druid these days. I don't really care anymore about wether or not bliz fixes it, if they don't druids will reroll or quite. Its that simple. There will still be a few around. But well, if the fact that on every server I play, the top guilds hold open druid recuitment 24/7 is any indication; I'd say most of them agree that it sucks and are quitting/moving on.

As for set bonuses..again. I've yet to see a mage complain about the 3-piece NW bonus to -threat. Nor a rogue on the +energy, improved feint or reduced cooldown on vanish. Nor a warlock on the reduced agro, well except that they got to get 8-pieces of Nemesis to get what 3 NW does for a mage, and we need 30 points in a tree to get -threat talents. In fact the only ones I ever really see complain are healers.
At any rate it looks like they are trying to boost the set bonus for the T3 a bit. Some of those look pretty nice. And would it really be that hard to make a set that uses multiple form bonuses for druids? No.

And you can't tell me you wouldn't be at least tempted by a set with say:
-Rejuve tick chance to restore mana/rage/energy thing on T3
-increased agro from Maul, Swipe/ Increased threat reduction from cower by 25%
-Decreases threat gen of all spells by 15% (especially if you are horde)
-Critical from Healing Touch, Starfire and Wrath return 25-30% mana cost of spell

or even something cool and dynamic like
-upon recieving critical strikes in combat you are sent into frenzied rage, increasing generation of rage, energy or mana by 100% for 5 seconds. (basically just enough to pull out a Fren Regen, cower or a heal if you really need it now but are low on R/E/MP.)

Either way those are crap yeah but I just came up with it in about 5 minutes of typing. I'm 100% SURE that blizzard can come up with something better, since you know...its their job and all...

But it doesn't matter. Druids will keep rerolling or quitting. Things won't change. There will always be a few die hard healer druids that aren't affected. Most of them will probably be newer since most of the vets leave/reroll. People will still think druids are all idiots/noobs since it seems druids in end game have increasingly less play time now days, due to vets rerolling/quitting. But it won't matter because raids will still have slots for them, since you know...rerolling/quitting...

In the end I think, like many druids that there needs to be better itemization. You who disagree will continue to do so. Neither one of us will change the others mind since there really isn't any flawed evidence for either side. Yes all we do now is heal in raids. Yes the reason is because of crap gear (among many other things) for other aspects (yes I know Mals blessed bullwark is the sh!t, but it will only hold out so long. And its really balance that gets the shaft not feral). People will still say you can heal as a feral/balance. Feral/balance will still say yeah but I'd like to do more than just 1/4 of my class and you know, that's why they specced feral or balance to begin with. Sort of like the resto druids that still like to mix it up a bit but really like healing the best. Is it that hard to fathom the other side of the agenda? Its just a big cycle. Now go reroll a priest...J/K :)

In the end, I don't really care. I play my warlock now and am very happy. Planning on trying mage when the blood elves come out, despite what current mages say about the talents. I think Arcane/Frost builds are pimp. I just like to troll these forums that I have been reading for nearly 1.5 years now (although didn't get the courage to post until a lot later, but now I think I'm one of the more opinionated members here). WOW its been that long now.

I thought about rerolling another druid on horde side now that I'm pretty much at home with my guild and horde is just a much better environment in general it seems. But seeing the T3 killed that. Even though I'm sure there will be great feral gear like the legendary staff. What was it like 350 AP in feral form in addition to all the +healing? All I could change would say make it +dmg/heal and lower it just a bit then it'd be perfect for me. But yeah..I'm just bored now and still typing. That and I just woke up from partying all night...and I think I'm still drunk. I should go back to sleep.:alc: :lol: :sleep:

I'm all for a feral/balance set, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's totally necessary to have as many feral/balance sets.

What I think would solve this is making either:

1.) Some of the existing sets to have stats that benefit feral as well as balance? Say one set can get +damage or something along those lines.
2.) Leave the healing sets and make very good (doesn't have to be epic) feral and balance sets that will help us, well not keep par with our parent classes (ie. warrior, rogue, mage) but at least make us viable usingn those sets.

I'm all for a feral/balance set, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's totally necessary to have as many feral/balance sets.

What I think would solve this is making either:

1.) Some of the existing sets to have stats that benefit feral as well as balance? Say one set can get +damage or something along those lines.
2.) Leave the healing sets and make very good (doesn't have to be epic) feral and balance sets that will help us, well not keep par with our parent classes (ie. warrior, rogue, mage) but at least make us viable usingn those sets.

To be honest I think it wouldn't be all that great to have a sh!t ton of sets either. But the current raid based sets do not have much in ways of augmenting 2 of the druids trees. I think your #1 would be the best fix, however if they changed the stats on current sets in the least to help out the other types of druid, all the resto druids would have babies.

Personally I don't see why they can't make a good all around set. T3 would be a great base line. All they need to do is throw on some STR. As much as I'd like to see some AGI too, I can forgo that. Let that stat be for the crit druids to make up with the off set pieces similar to dps warriors. Then all they need to do is change some of the item bonuses, or rather add to it. Since I'd hate to see all the healer druids lose all that awesome +healing, they could just add a +dmg modifier. Similar to those boots that drop in UD strat, has both +healing and +nature damage on a seperate mod. Wouldn't be anything for them to simply add a mod for +nature/arcane, if it was even half as high as the stuff mage/locks get then I'd be happy. Then the set bonuses could be tweaked just a bit. Leave the 2 piece, I think that's good regardless of spec. Make the 4 and 8 piece effect all spells and change up the 6 piece for something more feral friendly.

In that it would still be a dominately healing set but would augment the other trees well and with a couple change ups could become more specialized to the other trees, without sacrificing all of the set utility.

Yeah. As far as I know, I don't think there would be any balancing issues. The only problem would be the value of the set may rise but I would say it's worth it.

They should make it druid specific though or we'll have other classes hounding our set. ;)

I guess I just don't like the whole 'set' thing to begin with. It gets people boxed in to wearing gear that isn't particularly good compared to their other options and in precious few cases does the bonus justify that.

DPS warriors don't get a set, shadow priests don't get a set, elemental mages don't have a choice of sets, mellee shaman don't get a set, mellee paladins don't either. Druids aren't the only class with divergent roles that aren't addressed by their 'raid sets.' The AQ40 sets tried to address this for druids, shaman and paladins, and if those sets do a poor job it's just further evidence that the WoW itemization system doesn't accommodate good hybridized gear. The formulas seem to dictate that all-around sets, by definition, aren't good.

I understand the diluting the loot table argument against the idea of multiple sets, but it seems they are going to more and more of the token system anyway, where a token drops and then is turned in for the gear, why can't they just have multiple options available when you turn the token in? They could even make the turn in a non-repeatable quest to stop people from building all 3 sets if they thought that was over-powered.

You could get all your gear in one tree to specialize however you want or mix it up to make a hybrid set.

Also, can someone explain the socketed items thing and whether that will help? From what I gather it will give us some more flexibility in customizing our gear for the bonuses we want like enchants right?

I've been lvl 60 for sometime and full feral and I'm in a raiding guild. there's only one other feral druid in my guild and my guild wants feral druids and moonkin druids also!

The reason is some fights you need a feral druid and our leader of the pack buff help's rogue, hunters and warriors so we take the bosses down faster.

When you think of a Druid Char, most people think Druid= bear/cat form, the druid is based on that!
We need to have Feral Druid sets and weapons. When I heal I switch to my casting gear (Tier-1, only 5 peices so far) and I heal pretty good. But good guilds want a mix of Resto, Feral and Balance so we get all the nice buffs to help crit a lot more

Please!!! let us all write to Blizzard and get them to make feral sets and weapons!
The more people that do this the more Blizz. will see we want the feral epic sets!

Also it will help us all (Resto, Balance and Feral) for when we can move up to lvl 70! I'm sure it's going to be very hard to move up and take a long time so the better epic sets we have the better it's going to be to quest again!

Windsaber

DPS warriors don't get a set, shadow priests don't get a set, elemental mages don't have a choice of sets, mellee shaman don't get a set, mellee paladins don't either.

Exactly. But they do make decent gear for those that wish to play their classes in that manner. There's plenty of plate DPS gear. Shadow priests can share other caster dps gear/rings, etc. And there's plenty of feral druid items. I agree, there is definitely more feral oriented gear than balance, but then again, I've seen many more feral druids than balance.

The fact is, we're most effective as healers in a raid. I'm not saying we can't contribute dps during fights. I'm merely stating that in the grand scheme of things, we're much more beneficial (during raids) if we can save that last rogue/mage/tank from dying than pulling a healer away from those classes so that they can heal you (yes i know we can heal ourselves too, but if you have mobs on you, you won't be coming out of bear form).

Priest gear is pure healing. Sorry shadow priests. Tank gear is all +def. Sorry dps warriors. Honestly though, the set bonuses in general aren't the greatest for any set. So please stop crying. If druids (and any hybrid) should cry about anything, it should be about our relics/idols/totems. They suck relative to what other classes can get for ranged items (i.e. +stats, +attack power, +crit, +dmg/healing). We definitely got shafted on that one.

The fact is, we're most effective as healers in a raid. I'm not saying we can't contribute dps during fights. I'm merely stating that in the grand scheme of things, we're much more beneficial (during raids) if we can save that last rogue/mage/tank from dying than pulling a healer away from those classes so that they can heal you (yes i know we can heal ourselves too, but if you have mobs on you, you won't be coming out of bear form).

Priests are the defining healing class in the game, it should be expected that 90% of their class assets are devoted to healing. However I know many successful shadowpriests that DPS in raids along with the balance druid and warlocks. A shadow priest isn't all that different than a balance druid. Both have heals, nukes and a way to buff damage. (crit aura from moonkin, shadowweaving from priests). Should they have some stuff to beef their nukes on their sets? I think they should. Not as much as healing (they are THE healing class). But yeah they should have something not just off set pieces. Just like I think Shamans should have some nuking/melee on theirs. More balanced out since they are an offensive hybrid. Pallies too, but more suited to their defensive style.

And of course druids which aren't Offense of Defensive in nature, that is swayed by spec/gear since druids are clones. Druids need the most evenly distributed stats possible if the set was to truely cater to all the druid aspects, becuase druids have more than even the other hybrids. However the stats also must be substantial enough to actually matter.

-Intermission-

Which leads me to that arguement about what so and so does in raids. You know, that has got to be the most tired and rediculous arguement there is to it. I really don't care what something thinks is the most beneficial, and luckily I'm in a guild that doesn't much care either. We still raid pretty well too.

No one plays this game to "work." You play to have fun. Fun for each of us is different. That's why someone on the design team had a thought that just MAYBE it would be good to give players options. So they came up with this idea to have talents, and you can specialize in what you LIKE to play. Meaning that you can enhance you playstyle you enjoy and be better at that style. Then somewhere this idea came out that fun isn't as important as effectiveness, well what was perceived as effective.

-Don't forget your drinks from the consession area, or your fridge-

Well we all know that gear is a large part of how effective a player will be. In fact its probably the most important part of the equation. So..along with those talent/playstyle options, gear is needed to support them.

Whatever someone perceives as being our most beneficial role, doesn't matter. The only thing that really matters is are you enjoying your game;this is entertainment. So I'll choose a spec I like to play, for a playstyle I like to play. And I'll gear myself accordingly.

And for that to happen, options need to be available. Realistic options, PVP rewards are not realistic (not the epics). Most raid rewards are not realistic. Stats are very important, but all the +damage in the world means jack if a mage can't use it because they pull too much agro. That's where -agro set bonuses come in. Anyone that says set bonuses have no use, need to play another class for a while. Druids(well healers in general) get the shaft on bonuses, other classes can actually use theirs.

-Did you remember to get your popcorn?-

Anyways, in my guild we all are happy. We are pretty good raiders. But most important we all play how we like, and we are close because of it. Often times our MT is a 31 Arms war or our main Feral druid. We have shadow priest healer/nukers, we have enhancement shaman. We have Demon Sac warlocks and fire mages. All of us raid and we do pretty good. We break just about every raid taboo there is, but we have fun. Anyone that speaks up with this arguement about specs and what is more beneficial in the raid, won't find a happy home too long in our guild.

I know this is ranting, and really disjointed. I've been studying for exams the past 8 hours. Its 4am. Anyways...

Since you mentioned the grand scheme...

In the grand scheme of things its more important to have fun than anything else. That's why we play this game. Anyone that tries to force me to sacrifice my fun for their perceived benefit, will not be in my association. That's not being selfish, that's knowing why I play this game. If it stops being fun, I'll stop playing period. People are starting to realize that if they keep forcing people to play a certain way, those people leave. Which is why there is such a shortage of druids these days. And why guilds are having to accept good druids, regarldess of spec now, as druids just don't put up with that old crap too often anymore.

-Enjoy the show-

Anyways, this post really has little to do with the topic of this thread, which is about gear sets. It has to deal with what has to be one of the most cop-out arguement there is.

Anyways, what do you want more? A druid there to battle rez/off heal/ off tank/ dps or no druid at all? Because thats about the way things are getting.

Nothing against Yakiniku. But I don't like excuses and this arguement about how all druids should get is healing because that's all they are doing....that's just another excuse for people that want things simple. No one said hybrids are easy, and they certainly aren't simple. Even more than excuses, I hate when they are used as an acceptance to substandard terms. If something is not up to par, make it better.

Oh yeah and one other arguement that always comes up...well shaman and pallies only heal too.
Yep, and they need fixing too. That's like, if California established more harsh gun control to curve violent crime...then someone pops up saying "well New York doesn't have these rules, they just deal with it and they are fine."

So just because someone else takes dirt you should take dirt too?? Get real.

I'm should stop now before I piss someone off...I tend to do that.

EDIT: I didn't realize how long that was until I posted it, I added intermissions for reading convenience.

-Don't forget your drinks from the concession area, or your fridge-


The concession stand was closed can I get a discount on my Jujubes on my next movie???

Seriously though very well put and I agree completely the guild I plan to join is very understanding in terms of spec as long as you are willing to shift out and help heal when needed they are happy to have LotP and moonkin auras to help buff the raid.

Here's another way to look at it. Specialized gear is another way to balance the druid's variety of abilities against other classes. If I want to be able to do something well enough to be doing it on a raid, be in the tank healing group for a tough boss, be the tank on a tough boss, contribute meaningful dps as cat, part of doing that is choosing the appropriate gear beforehand. I've tanked Broodlord Lashlayer. I've also helped keep a tank alive on Nefarian for a good 20-30+ seconds with only one paladin and one priest. Would it be in any way appropriate for me to be able to do those two things in the same set of gear?

We seem to be having two linked, but very different discussions.

Should there be a hybrid set that accommodates multiple druid roles? I say no for the reason given above and simply because the WoW itemization formulas do not allow the creation of good hybrid gear. (and perhaps they have no intent to change that because of reason 1?)

The other discussion was should there be separate sets for feral and balance? I say no because the 'sets' that are in game now aren't that great. With the exception of pants there are very solid options for feral. Balance is hurting but it's out there and growing. If going to a 'set' would mean having crappy gear in exchange for often questionable bonuses as compared to the awesome feral gear I have accumualted now, forget that. Even when the set bonuses are good, you just end up getting locked into your crappy gear when better options appear because you don't want to give up the bonus. How many mages out there with items that are far better in every other respect are still running around in 8/8NW? I don't want to be that guy. I *like* that fact that 8/8SR isn't very good, so I can wear whatever I want to match my playstyle and only really be worried about maintaining 3/8 StormRage.

As far as being able to still be a hybrid player. You sure can. You just have to mix and match appropriately. This is the profile I wear for things like AQ20 and ZG:

http://ctprofiles.net/1121874

5803hp/10643ac in bear, 4714mana/596+heal/27mp5 caster (with weapon swap) totally buffless, and 3pc stormrage in effect. It is quite possible to be very effectively hybridized with equipment currently in game.

Here's another way to look at it. Specialized gear is another way to balance the druid's variety of abilities against other classes. If I want to be able to do something well enough to be doing it on a raid, be in the tank healing group for a tough boss, be the tank on a tough boss, contribute meaningful dps as cat, part of doing that is choosing the appropriate gear beforehand. I've tanked Broodlord Lashlayer. I've also helped keep a tank alive on Nefarian for a good 20-30+ seconds with only one paladin and one priest. Would it be in any way appropriate for me to be able to do those two things in the same set of gear?

We seem to be having two linked, but very different discussions.

Should there be a hybrid set that accommodates multiple druid roles? I say no for the reason given above and simply because the WoW itemization formulas do not allow the creation of good hybrid gear. (and perhaps they have no intent to change that because of reason 1?)

The other discussion was should there be separate sets for feral and balance? I say no because the 'sets' that are in game now aren't that great. With the exception of pants there are very solid options for feral. Balance is hurting but it's out there and growing. If going to a 'set' would mean having crappy gear in exchange for often questionable bonuses as compared to the awesome feral gear I have accumualted now, forget that. Even when the set bonuses are good, you just end up getting locked into your crappy gear when better options appear because you don't want to give up the bonus. How many mages out there with items that are far better in every other respect are still running around in 8/8NW? I don't want to be that guy. I *like* that fact that 8/8SR isn't very good, so I can wear whatever I want to match my playstyle and only really be worried about maintaining 3/8 StormRage.

As far as being able to still be a hybrid player. You sure can. You just have to mix and match appropriately. This is the profile I wear for things like AQ20 and ZG:

http://ctprofiles.net/1121874

5803hp/10643ac in bear, 4714mana/596+heal/27mp5 caster (with weapon swap) totally buffless, and 3pc stormrage in effect. It is quite possible to be very effectively hybridized with equipment currently in game.


You make good points, and they aren't wrong. However its not the entire picture, you are neglecting the facts which are brought into game design.

There is no way a druid who is tanking effectively (meaning holding agro) to shift out and heal/nuke/dps. It would be suicide to leave bear armor.

Likewise a druid who is at that time locked into a healing situation isn't going to shift to cat and start slashing up mobs. It would kill someone else.

The only real easily changable roles are between dps to healing (hopefully a druid dpsing knows how to clear agro), DPS to tanking and back (when the agro control is re-established by the prime tank) or melee dps to nuke and back.

However this spastic playstyle is limited by how it is so mana intensive and will leave a druid drained when the **** hits the fan, and thus in a very bad position. So its really on the druid to utilize the abilities and resourses at his/her disposal to keep pace but have reserves for the whole fight. No one said hybrids were easy.

Anyways getting back to my original point. Game agro prevents a lot of the transitioning between certain aspects. Really only the related aspects are interchangable at a given time except dps to healing. Which every druid should be able to pull off. Cat to healing because cat takes no mana, nuke to healing because of similar gear requirements.

In addition, a druid can use all stats, however not at the same time. This ties into the roles, meaning a dedicated tank isn't able to heal. A healer druid can shift to bear, but in a position which needs them healing at that time, it would mean death to shift for another aspect.

This is also where druids seperate from shaman/pally as hybrids as they can call their entire arsenal into use at any given time. Gear is more important as a limiter because of that aspect to those 2 classes, shaman and pallies don't lose their armor if they deside to heal or turn on the damage.

Druids cannot do to shapeshift,in addition to agro issues. The game design already imposes balance into the mix. Restriction from gear is redundant.

Ghost Bear makes a really good point on the practical side of hybrid playstyles.

I am a moonkin, and I do not want a balance set. I want hybrid gear like Genesis (which I am content daydreaming about and not clamoring for more hybrid sets [yet]).

My playstyle is a melee combat mage, sometimes referred to here as a Panzerkin. I use virtually every stat at the same time. I fight in melee, to get OOC procs, augment my spell dps, get weapon procs, and make best use of my high armor and improved thorns. I need high AC items (like bear), with good strength; of course I need high int for the mana pool, but I also find high spirit important in minimizing downtime through reflection and pacing spells with melee. The most important is naturally the +dmg/heal gear, but I also have to keep my hp high enough to keep me from being two shotted by a 'lock since the spell damage isn't effected by the armor (currently working on raising resistances too). Worst off I am a casual gamer with no access to raid gear.

For me the perfect balance set would have high str, int, spi, sta, AC, and +dmg/heal, with some +spell crit or resistances as bonuses. That is pretty much a hybrid set.

As to ghost bear's playstyle observations, I think he wasn't considering moonkins (few do). As he noted all my +dmg gear is also beneficial to healing, as is my high int and spi. He neglected that moonkin and bear get the same AC multiplier, so good moonkin gear is decent bear gear (at least for the 5-10 man stuff I see). Heck my current weapon is a Warden Staff with the spell power enchant on it (wrap your head around that for a minute). And while I am certainly no damage maven in cat form, I have enough strength to be viable to shred up some clothies, where the AC isn't helpful and bear and moonkin just attack so slow (if moonkin had a good spell interrupt, I'd stay there).

My guild's MH is a paladin so I off-evreything depending on the situation, usually adding to te focused dps in Moonkin, often dropping back to NElf to assist healing/cleansing in big fights, occasionally going bear if I get multiple mobs on me or are low on mana or need to frenzied regen rather than squishy self heal, and even catting out casters. I also tend to form jump a lot in PvP doing most of these same things from time to time.

Wait a minute...I'm sure I had a point when I started typing...

oh yeah, there are people who use more than one aspect of the class at a time, have fun doing it, and are effective.

I like the 5 piece Genesis set in that if I can ever start raiding and get it, it will support my playstyle, and leave several slots still open for good misc. gear. I am even pleased with the feralheart I do have for now, as it isn't too shabby for casual hybrid gear.

My gear goal is to have on at one time:
8250 AC, +250 dmg/heal, 3500 hp, 5750 mp, +5% spell crit, +100 all resists.

sadly you really won't ever, pre expansion anyway, be able to have 100 to all resists at the same time Resist gear in WoW just isn't itemized that way.

I'm getting closer than you might think. I have the improved mark to get them all to 27, and the 2 piece feralheart to get another 8 to all (thats 35), I am working on the chromatic cloak for +9 fire and shadow, and plan to get the +5 to all enchant on it (40 for most, 49 fire and shadow), I also am getting the +5 to all shoulder enchant from AD (45 all, 54 fire/shadow), I have racial boost to nature resist [+10] (45 holy/arcane, 54 fire/shadow, 55 nature), and some single good numbers on other pieces of gear (mostly fire and nature). Get better gear with balance stats and resists (some Cenarion, boots of the shrieker, amberseal keeper, etc...) and it should be doable...eventually.

If I can get them all over 75, I will consider it an adequate personal victory to boost the rest of the way with a flask, but I think I can get at least fire and nature over a hundred with the others around 75 naturally. (I could really care less about resistance to holy)

As to ghost bear's playstyle observations, I think he wasn't considering moonkins (few do). As he noted all my +dmg gear is also beneficial to healing, as is my high int and spi. He neglected that moonkin and bear get the same AC multiplier, so good moonkin gear is decent bear gear (at least for the 5-10 man stuff I see). Heck my current weapon is a Warden Staff with the spell power enchant on it (wrap your head around that for a minute). And while I am certainly no damage maven in cat form, I have enough strength to be viable to shred up some clothies, where the AC isn't helpful and bear and moonkin just attack so slow (if moonkin had a good spell interrupt, I'd stay there).


Gwmort, Yes I did consider moonkin. Please check back at the last part of that 4th paragraph in my last post when I mentioned melee and nuking. I just didn't really go deep into it in that sentence but I'm fairly sure I mentioned that a bear shifting out while holding agro is pretty much dead. Though moonkin does have armor so I suppose if you time it between hits its one thing. However if you were in a position which you needed to tank, why would you shift to moonkin? Moonkin has no way of drawing agro save for its nukes, and if the mob you were tanking was killed or peeled by a tank then your moonkin armor is a void point in the conversation at that time.

I'm glad you mentioned about your playstyle though. It shows why I've always seen moonkins in a similar light as shaman as opposed to mages. However while your mention of armor and stats are on point there is still more to it.

First a moonkin has little in the ways of DPS bonuses to melee other than really Natural weapons, you can catch some lower end feral talents but you miss the big one HOTW. So your melee is pretty much strictly gear based, mostly weapon since moonkin has no STR mod like feral forms (1STR = 2 AP or whatever it was). You mentioned augmenting your nuking with melee especially for OOC. This is good, however nuking resets your swing timer, unlike shaman. So you can't load damage in that manner as a shaman would. These matters, are why I do feel moonkin are closer to mages that shaman, though moonkin I think play more like shaman than mage (did that make sense?)

Next I will mention the armor issue. Moonkin does have good armor. Especially if you have managed to get some leather gear with useful stats as a moonkin. However there is really no reason in an end game raid where a moonkin would want agro. I can see in 5 or 10 mans, I like to have Moonkin start up the AoE sequences if possible that way the mages/locks don't take the beating. Similar to how I'd have a shaman make the initial AoE agro with a chain lightning, a moonkin can do it with barkskin+hurricane. However end game this wouldn't be an issue. You still would not want to be getting hit in moonkin, so the armor topic is not an issue. Unless you turn to bear, then we aren't talking about nuking anymore. And until that mob is neutralized or controlled you won't be going back to moonkin (game design remember).

Also, as you mentioned moonkin cannot heal. You just like a bear form, have to lose your armor to heal up.

I think my next point will be gear. A lot of the gear in the game now has some nice armor on it as is. So this issue for moonkin is covered. As you pointed out, its not hard to have a moonkin and still have nice armor point. However how much of that gear has all the stats your playstyle incorporates? Not much. Off the top of my head I can only think of the PVP gear and Genesis. Neither of which are easy to get.

Lastly about moonkin. As we have established, you can get high armor and still be in moonkin (which I think is really great as it makes the moonkin a seperate playstyle from the rest of druids). However in regards to soaking up punishment, its still far from acceptable in a lot of end game situations. This is because you simply do not have the HP to support prolonged damage absorbtion. You will last longer than the squishies, but not much longer. And this is only talking about melee damage, when it comes to magic you are still a low HP squishy. Which is good though, that's why you still need bear form.

So anyways, I didn't really think I needed to draw out the discussion on moonkin since it doesn't break the rules of the game, it just bends some things here and there. All those game designed induced restrictions still hold true to moonkin. You leave moonkin to heal, you lose your hard candy shell. You shift to bear to tank, you aren't using all those moonkin stats anymore and wont be until the mob is off you because again, dropping bear would be suicide. Cat to moonkin and back is still feasible as in a dps situation you should not have agro. In fact if you gain agro in Moonkin you may NEED to go cat to cower so it sheds off. Which is one benefit of maintaining range while in moonkin. I suppose that doesn't support your panzerkin style though. But I can't blame you for slugging it out, my druid is feral =)
And again a moonkin is not a tank, you have no HP's. You are an extra hard M&M, with horns or long ears. To finish this paragraph off, Moonkin have no stuns. So really your choices are quite limited when you need to heal (going back into game design, armor and Hp's)

While we are talking about all this shifting it needs to be mentioned again, that this is extremely mana intensive. There is no way that you would be able to accomidate all those needed stats and still have enough mana to play such a spastic style in long drawn out raid boss fights. This is one area a lot of the current gear falls short. Though the innervate thing will go a long way to change this so who knows?

And in regards to PVP, a lot of druids naturally go for very hybrid gear so all the bases are covered as you said. So yeah, we really don't need to talk about this area as we are in agreement. And the rules still apply.

Anyways hope that was readable. Though Gw I do wonder. A while back you mentioned that to effectively use Moonkin, you needed to gear up and use it really to the point of ignoring the other forms. When and what made you change your mind?

I remember the thread you mention in your last paragraph, but I don't think I was the one supporting exclusion of other forms, although I did support the idea that a lot of people that tried moonkin didn't like it partly because they didn't have any of the gear to support it.

I suppose it comes down to experience. I have never been in anything higher than a 10 man raid, so I can only speculate on how I would play in a different environment I haven't seen.

To address some of your other points:
Natural Shapeshifter is a balance talent that saves me tons of mana in my playstyle to accomodate all the shifting. I also have 18 points in resto and have reflection for 15% mana regen while casting/in combat, and of course everything is cheaper with moonglow. My mana pool is about 5000 unbuffed, and unless I am spamming MF in an emergency (makes me feel dirty), mana is not much of an issue, I don't expect it to be any once innervate comes.

If I am moonkin in a 10 man, that means someone else is the healer, so I don't worry too much about dropping out to heal myself.

I haven't MT anything higher than ST as moonkin, but back then I was able to hold aggro ok just on damage. Opening on a group by walking into melee range, chugging an oil of immolation and barkskin + hurricane generates tons of agro. I do occassionally do what I refer to as off-tanking, although it might not be what most people mean. If my MT has too many guys on him on a hard pull, I will get one that isn't his main target or the subject of the focused dps, and I will pour damage into it until I peel him off, then I will take him off and deal with him one on one, to lighten the load on the MT and MH. Also if I see a mob go for the range casters I can sometimes nuke it back faster than the tank, depending on his rage status, and once it is back in melee range the tank can shout to get him off me.

I understand about the swing timer, and it adds a level of complexity to the melee fighting, but we can work around it. Most of the spells I cast in melee are instant (NG, FF, MF, barkskin) with the occassional 1 sec wrath mixed in. SO getting the spells off isn't a probelm (I can usually fit those wraths in between enemy swings). If I see I need to renew MF, I wait until my next swing then cast right after to provide minimum interruption to the swing timer, it is also why I prefer faster weapons (there are even some nice dagger combos where you wouldn't even notice the interruption to the swing timer).

One of the big complaints people had about druids for a while was that damage doesn't scale with better weapons, but for moonkins it does, and we can get the damage benefit from proccing enchants as well.

If I am in a grind state not worrying about how fast a mob dies after the initial spell volley I will just swing away renewing MF, my swings are faster than a bear's, and come at about the same rate as the MF ticks, if you think about the constant ticks as augmenting the weapon swing, I can maintain pretty strong dps just slugging away, without even factoring the occassional up-front MF damage. Remembering that I will sometimes be renewing that MF from an OOC proc, and I can end the fight with as much mana as I started.

I know its not helpful in most instances, but I do use the NG to back off and heal in moonkin form in place of bash (I know its not perfect, but it helps). A Tauren can Warstomp in Moonkin to get a AoE stun to shift and heal if necessary. Also moonkins can use consummables, so unlike a bear, I can just chug a major pot for an instant boost in a pinch.

My armor isn't just good, its great for a casual player. The gear I have now isn't spectacular, but I am getting the job done handily. The gear is out there, and its not unobtainable, it just takes some hunting around for it. There is an excellent balance gear guide stickied in the official WoW druid forum for anyone interested.

* edit* sorry we seem to be drifting far afield from the thread topic, my point was as a moonkin with my playstyle in the environments I play in a hybrid set is better than a balance set that might neglect to augment my melee and defense. I also agree with nearly everything Ghostbear said, I was just trying to elucidate some finer points of moonkins.

I was going to type out a really long post explaining my thoughts on all the trees but decided to delete it and make it much simpler.

IMO, Moonkin is terrible. If you want to spec that way, by all means do and enjoy yourself. But I think your missing out on doing better dps with feral or better healing with resto.

GWMort I really do love your passion for Moonkin. Its tough being anything but resto and trying to prove yourself to non druids. However, do yourself a favor and give the other trees a chance. You may realize that moonkin isnt that great...

I leveled to 42 as feral and had fun, but I always enjoyed bear more than cat. Things seemed to always happen too fast for me to keep up when I was in cat having to stay with the opponent and find the buttons I needed to push and watching my own health and energy. I was always a little frantic.

Bear was better, because they came to me instead of trying to stay behind them and at the perfect range and all, but my dps was very low.

I really enjoy the casting, I would play a mage, but I hate being that squishy, so a druid seemed like the natural fit. I had been planning on going balance way back before 1.8 ever came out, once I saw the patch notes for moonkin, I knew that it would suit me perfectly.

I have 18 points in resto, and heal all the time in 10 man LBRS/UBRS runs, and really enjoy it. I have no doubt I would enjoy being a full resto druid for raiding and instances, but the truth of the matter is most of my time online is spent solo, or with one or two friends (one of which is a solely dedicated healer) with weekly guild 5-man runs. I don't think a full resto build would give me the same kind of solo play enjoyment I get from the Moonkin.

There is also the challenge aspect of it, trying to find a way to make a spec most people write off as viable as possible, I really enjoy that. Its pretty easy to decide if a piece of gear is an upgrade for a warrior or rogue, but it is a challenge when trying to decide between pieces offering int or +dmg or +spell crit or +mana/5 or high spirit, etc...

I am never top of any meters, but I am usually right in the middle of all of them. In my 5 man runs I usually am 3rd on the damage done, 2nd damage taken, and 2nd healing meters as I dps, off-tank, and heal support. I've discussed it with my friends and we realize the meters are pretty much meaningless when evaluating hybrid play since the total impact of my spec and playstyle impacts them all and makes life easier for virtually the whole group since I can lend a hand wherever it is needed at the time.

I have considered going to 24/0/27 to just be a NE caster/healer, but I think that would take some of the fun out of it (and our healadin loves the free mana from his crit heals thanks to my aura).

I respect the other builds, and think everyone should give ferals a better shake, but I expect them to respect me too and realize that there are millions of people playing this game, and they are not all playing the same game, some are raiders, and some will never see the inside of a 40-man, some just enjoy BGs and some love just open-world pvp, everyone is different with different objectives and goals and no one spec or playstyle is best for everyone. For some people moonkins are a perfect fit to what they want to do, and I am one of them.