View Full Forums : feral < balance ???


leetdrood
06-05-2006, 08:13 PM
k well. ive respecced SEVERAL times, being that i cant decide between balance or feral (resto is too boring for me)... anyways... im coming up to my... i cant rmeber.. my last spec was 25g.. so i think my new one would be around 30g... and im debating going back to moonkin.. cause, man it was fun in that form, DPS is decent, not as good at my cat.. (im a 51 druid) and i crit aroudn 1.1k with my ravage almost every time... and i love it! so im in a dilema.. cant decide... any tips?

ps. im about to start pvp.. im gonna get to around 58-60 then respec.. take that into cnsideration... thanks guys! :wiggle:

edit: sorry, this was poorly writen.. umm im feral btw, if you didnt know already :P
and... getting gear for balance would be a bitch...

gwmort
06-06-2006, 08:50 AM
There is no one right answer. What is best for depends on, well you. It sounds like you want to moonkin, but haven't developed strategies to address the "shortcomings" compared to the simpler to play builds.

One playstyle that might work well for you is going with the Panzerkin melee caster. Wear a bit of your bear stuff with whatever caster items you can get, and swing away with a big 2h mace while augmenting with MF and the other spells (FF, NG, Barkskin, etc...). Then if you get a couple mobs you can shift to bear and your gear will still be supporting your play and you can frenzied regen and start swiping etc...

Your build might go something like:
32/14/5, focusing in feral on bear talents and grabbing furor in resto. Natural weapons and OOC from balance will still be helping you out more dps and free rage in bear, so its a nice hybrid combo.

lorath
06-06-2006, 09:45 AM
If you want to do dps, stay feral. Moonkin is a complete joke until you get some of the epic armor/trinkets later in the game. Panzerkin is a joke in the melee and caster department.

gwmort
06-06-2006, 11:28 AM
He already acknowledged he'd have more dps in his cat form, its not always about max dps, but how you personally have the most fun.

Panzerkin even leveling with blues/greens can be very effective. Moonkin can use roccing weapons and enchants to enhance melee, unlike any other druid, they get the 10% damage boost from natural weapons too and free MFs from Ooc, with a Nature's Grace proc they can whip out a 1 sec wrath. They always have barkskin and FF, and situationally roots to augment their mace swinging as well, and thats not counting pulling with a 2000pt SF.

Imagine an enchant which would give a warrior +150 damage on every swing, whether the weapon hit or not. Thats basically meleeing in Moonkin with the DoT portion of MF ticking away and the mob is taking thorn damge and sometimes root damage as well.

Of course you can still pop a potion w/o shifting or use other consummables, or cast your AoE w/o giving up any armor.

Panzerkin, if played well, is not a joke.

lorath
06-06-2006, 11:47 AM
First off, any great weapon is a waste in the hands of a moonkin. You will never see a good moonkin weilding an epic weapon...why? because warriors, shamans, and palladins get so much more out of it.

Even with a great weapon you may swing for 500 damage every few seconds. A warrior can take that same weapon and do 3k damage to you in the matter of seconds. Moonkin is a contradiction in itself.

A high armor caster. If you are swinging a mace, you arent casting and if your casting, whats the point of tons of armor when a mage can still 2 shot you.

Moonkin FTL. Your better off picking up balance talents and not going the whole way to moonkin.

Dagz
06-06-2006, 01:15 PM
My druid is only lvl 40 right now and I went feral. Saves money on weapons with high damage because once you transform, its worthless. Even epics are junk once you transform. Without good stats, it doesnt matter. Even damage enchants are worthless. Any % on a crit or a dodge helps it seems. I agree with you though, restore seems boring, and to me at least, squishy. I prefer the solo route myself and Ive been told by many that feral is the best for pvp. But hey, its just an opinion, everyone has them. Far as I can tell, a big ol nuking hairball who can smack the teeth out of your skull doesnt seem to bad. I just never went that way, but I may exsperiment later. Id like to find a nice comfortable balance but being a hybrid class, doesnt make for easy choices. Ive left guilds before because they basically told me to respec to restore, well, I pay to play. They didnt pay my monthly fee. Its all out of my wallet. Do whats more your playing style. I went feral because my love for going solo. Plus in my own opinion, its great for pvp. Every talent branch has its pitfalls. I feel for ya and welcome to the wonderful world of hybrids. Just remeber, its your druid. Far as Im concerned there will never be a "best build" thats where the challenge and the fun is.

gwmort
06-06-2006, 01:35 PM
Lorath, I don't think you are getting me, or you are just trying to start an argument.

Warriors are moot to Moonkins, their physical attacks do virtually no damage, whatever they are swinging, and the arcane damage from Moonkin eats right through their armor with no mitigation. Moonkins are the anti-warrior right now.

I am not trying to say you should think of Panzerkin as an awesome melee damage doer, but you should also not think of him as an awesome arcane nuker, but he can be a little of both for maximum effectiveness.

It doesn't matter if you're spell dps isn't as high as a mage if you are augmenting it with melee damage. Plus melee is the only way to get Ooc procs to get free spells, and everyone else that melees is using physical damage against you that you can absorb. (although to be honest I melee more in PvE than PvP, but mostly because of range issues)

I use a warden staff with a spell power enchant on it, my staff hits every 2.4 seconds for 100-125 damage or so, but I couple that with a tick or two from MF, the occassional upfront portion of MF, 1 sec wraths on nature's grace procs, and I am holding about 400 dps, with manageable mana consumption (can of course MF spam for higher dps).

Pull with SF (1200 dmg), as the mob approaches hit with MF (400 dmg) and FF, mob enters melee hit with staff (100 dmg), MF ticks (150 dmg), mob takes thorn dmg (22 dmg) hit with staff (100 dmg), Ooc procs, MFcrit (600 dmg) Wrath [nature's grace proc] (500 dmg) mob takes thorn dmg (22 dmg) hit with staff (100 dmg) = 3199 dmg in about 8 seconds or so = 400 dps

lorath
06-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Im not trying to start an argument. Im just tired of seeing you telling new druids that moonkin is something special. It may be "fun" to you but it sucks for pvp and pve.

gwmort
06-06-2006, 02:52 PM
I see, sorry.

I only said he might like this playstyle because he has already tried moonkin in the OP and is thinking about going back, so I was trying to give him a suggestion that might help him enjoy it more.

Moonkin is something special, but not better, just different. Different strokes for different folks, do what you enjoy. If you love your feral druid good for you. I am not trying to change your mind.

Most people looking for help get tons of feral and resto suggestions, but not much balance, so I have been trying to address that. When I first started reading this forum, everyone was pushing resto, and the ferals were getting fed up with it, and there was no mention of balance at all.

I know balance, so I post about that, I assume others that know more about feral and resto will post about that. I do not try to put down other builds, and I try to be even-handed.

Kyane
06-06-2006, 03:50 PM
Lorath,

I think you need to chill out. You don't see anyone else ripping other builds.

gw is just giving people another opinion ( be it a minority of the druid population ) to look at. Moonkin and do some pretty insane damage. I regularly run with a Moonkin druid in PvP, who more than holds his own, and crits with hit starfires for somewhere in the neighborhood of 2k.

GW knows his build and plays it well, I have NO doubt in that. He NEVER comes across condescending or insulting. You need to take a lesson there.

Play your druid to your liking. We are a HYBRID class and do a LOT of things well. Like others tag us as heal bots, you're tagging us as feral to be able to do any damage. If you're not fond of Moonkin that's fine, but it's no reason to slam those that do.

lorath
06-06-2006, 04:10 PM
My sincerest apologies. Now, GW lets see a movie of you in this panzerkin because I still dont believe it. Maybe Im just the biggest nub moonkin ever but it doesnt work for me.

Im a resto druid btw, not a feral druid.

Wulfgor
06-06-2006, 05:33 PM
GW, I appreciate your well written advice on the moonkin form. I am not moonkin and have never tried it, but having OoC and knownig the damage mitigation from a 360% armor increase, I can see how the moonkin would work.

I think for anyone who hasn't tried it, they would find it hard to understand the strategy. If I were to try Moonkin, I think I would just love the OoC procs because thats FREE whatever...heal, Starfire, Moonfire. Thats a powerful thing. I don't think anybody is saying the druid is going to be doing his damage with the weapon. In fact, I would likely go with a faster weapon to attempt more OoC procs. Anyway, moonkin does sound fun, but I would be spending 50 gold to give that a try and another 55 gold if I missed 14/32/5 too much.

lorath
06-07-2006, 07:53 AM
It gets capped at 50g and with the new patch there is a decay rate of 5g per month.

I encourage all to go ahead and try this playstyle then report back your personal results with it. The biggest success stories are usually from druids that gather lots of cloth gear with +dmg to it and just focus on casting.

gwmort
06-07-2006, 09:11 AM
Thanks for the support all.

Is there an in-game feature that lets you capture videos, or do you need some sort of third party program? I've never tried, but I know there are some great moonkin videos out there.

I was originally drawn to moonkin because it was so belittled on all the forums. I wanted to see if I could take what looked like a really interesting set of tools, and make them work. It has been a challenge, but I have found a way to make it work for me doing the things in game I enjoy.

I really like the spell casting, but hate the squishiness of cloth casters, which is why I went druid in the first place. I also really liked the shape shifting aspect for utility. I was playing pre-1.8 and planned on going balance then, but the patch came out before I was level 40 and cinched it for me.

I don't mean that weapon damage is the primary means of my dps, but it is an integral part. I often referring to thinking of the DoTs as a buff to the weapon damage, but another way of thinking about it is considering the weapon hits as another DoT adding more damage to the target every know and then. I used a hypnotic blade combo around level 40 with many quick dagger jabs that worked well, and am considering a similar strategy with the epic caster dagger from AB rep.

It also may be elementary, but a great way to avoid being Oom is to cast fewer spells. Its all about pacing while grinding. In an instance I let loose a little more and end up drinking every third pull or so, but I also do a lot more healing.

Moonkin is not for everyone, and every moonkin will not be played the same. Some people do enjoy loading the cloth and trinkets and just getting the monster SF numbers. If that is what they enjoy, I wish them the best with it. I like maxing my AC while trying to keep more hybrid stats and trying to squeeze every bit of utility from my druid, because that is what I enjoy.

When I can pull a group of mobs with a SF, spread MF to everyone in the group, drink an oil of immolation as they start beating my thorns, hit barkskin and hurricane, then as soon as the channeling stops drop to caster for rejuv and then to bear to start spamming swipes with ooc procs, then when those mobs are down jump up and heal myself and my friends, I am on top of the world.

You do what you enjoy and others will do what they enjoy. Thats whats so great about this game and this class in particular, its wide open.

Kyane
06-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Moonkin:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8244982800881956286&q=moonkin

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2932112961993153254&q=moonkin

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8838769452470070530&q=moonkin

Just to give you an idea.

And GW, there's a tool called FRAPS that lets you capture movies, but the free version only lets you capture a few min at a time.

gwmort
06-07-2006, 10:52 AM
Those are entertaining, and show some of what moonkin can do in PvP, but I'll have to get that Fraps and show what I mean about melee I guess. Soloing a Devilsaur should make a good video (if I can get him in the frame) and show what I mean.

lorath
06-07-2006, 11:04 AM
Its a shame in that first video the guy needs talisman of empheral power and unstable force to get those numbers. Hah...lets see what he normally hits for.

gwmort
06-07-2006, 01:37 PM
I think they're nerfing it so they won't stack anymore, but if you got 'em use 'em, thats why the items are in the game.

I think the point is to show what is possible, not necessarily likely.

goa
06-08-2006, 07:21 AM
They don't call moonkin "shammykin" for nothing. Sure, it's extremely gear dependant, but nowadays there are some really good moonkin leathers from AQ and the world dragons.. and rings and ****.. so if you manage to get some of thoose babies you will be a mage in mail pretty much (that soon can innervate themselves (!!!!)).

gwmort
06-08-2006, 08:42 AM
Mail? Try plate. I currently have 8000AC w/o potions or pally auras.

I saw a nice post in the WoW forums that summed it up nicely...

Basically, you will need to work harder and longer to get the gear you need to be effective, and by the time you do, your numbers might still not be as stellar as a mage, but you will be a better player because of all the practice and work you put in to get there, having been forced to really learn to maximize your class to survive.

Moonkin is definitely not for everyone, but for some who like a challenge it can be very rewarding.

goa
06-08-2006, 12:22 PM
Mail? Try plate. I currently have 8000AC w/o potions or pally auras.

Ya you're prolly rite. Back in the days before AQ moonkins usually wore cloth as they didn't have any real powerful leather equalent.

Anyway.. a well played moonkin decked on good epics are twice as powerful as a mage of same gear level imo. Moonkins have both faster "standard"-lasergun (wrath) and that lovely MF-spam we all love. :D Mage's have counterspell and teleport though.. but they are fragile as paper and can't du that much against skilled hunters for example.

And a moonkin can always heal his mates if it needs doing. :D

Thing is.. you _really_ need good gear if you wanna be a good moonkin. :/

SilencerBob
06-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Hey guys

I have a 60 moonkin druid and for 1..i love playing in moonkin form for world stuff. I play on a normal server and rarely ever pvp, so i find that im pretty well suited to moonkin form in all 5 man instances.

When it gets to 10-man..the druid class takes a healing/decursing role rather than dps...unless u r with an insanely epic'd raid

At the moment my guild is going back to MC (after a few months doing lower instances like ZG to build up newer 60's) .. and im really loving it.. the Cenarion belt dropped a few weeks ago and i was the only druid in the raid *yehaa* and just last week we downed Lucifron and i got the Boots *whoo phreakin hoo*

there were only a few mages with us and 1 other druid...we decided to take it safe and spam with the decursive so we had the best chance *having the past 3 weeks wiping against luci :( *

i found that all i was doing is some rejuv's from time to time and a massive spam of decursing the impending doom...using DECURSIVE of course ... no chance of keeping in moonkin form at all there....however i can foresee that if we had enough decursers i could assume my favourite moonkin role ...which when in a party of locks and mages...we could take her down even faster

i cannot imagine using cloth just for the +spell damage..just seems like a stupid thing to do...even with the 360% armor increase...ur increasing ur cloth armor..lol

i must admit i never really liked feral..some people say theres more dps in it..well great ..all my gear since lvl50 has been +int +spi and +healing/damage ...without thought of melee attack power, +sta or +agi ..and it suits me just fine ..just wish i had the rest of the cenarion gear ..or better

goa
06-08-2006, 09:56 PM
Moonkins should never be taken lightly. We have one "moonkin at heart" druid in our guild. He always gets piss from other guildies because they think he is gimped mage. They are so wrong. I've seen him in action. He has massive lasers! PEW PEW DEAD! And they are all hipocrits really because all mages and locks wants to party with him when we raid. :D

I fear next patch when he gets innervate.. I wont stand a chance in duels. :D

And he likes me as I'm only feral druid in our guild so we usually combatrez eachother. VOTE FOR THE UNDERDOGS! :D

Waterloo
06-15-2006, 05:19 PM
Hey, is OoC really worth it? I've been dreaming about getting the Fang of Venoxis and I was thinking maybe it would work well with it. I didn't get it in my current build because my past experiences with it were annoying to rebuff it every 5 mins (That was when I awas leveling as feral though...non cast forms) and it seems maybe I should spend the extra gold to get it?

swearword
06-15-2006, 05:29 PM
Hey, is OoC really worth it? I've been dreaming about getting the Fang of Venoxis and I was thinking maybe it would work well with it. I didn't get it in my current build because my past experiences with it were annoying to rebuff it every 5 mins (That was when I awas leveling as feral though...non cast forms) and it seems maybe I should spend the extra gold to get it?

Its effectiveness is proportional to how much you melee. I am not in end game yet so I have no idea how much a moonkin has a chance to get up and melee. I would say if you have a lot of melee opportunities it would be an invaluable skill because hey who doesn't like free spells :)

Claritondeus
06-15-2006, 06:10 PM
I am not in end game yet so I have no idea how much a moonkin has a chance to get up and melee. I would say if you have a lot of melee opportunities it would be an invaluable skill because hey who doesn't like free spells :)

My guild has been running MC for about 2-3 months now, and have every boss up to Rag on farm status, and are in the process of learning Rag. I believe by July we will be able to get him. In my experience as a Main Healer, the more people that rush in to melee = the more people that have to be healed = more mana used by healers and more people dead. And when going for 6 or 7 bosses in one night (we are shooting for clearing MC in 2 days), stopping to drink / rezz all the time doesn't work.

Just last week, we had to ask a feral druid, who was nice enough to help out on the raid by healing to not go into bear and charge the mobs / bosses when they were oom (though for the 684 mana it takes to shift to bear, they could have gotten off at least 2 more rank 6 HT's). We only had 4 priests (one brand new 60, not even ubrs/lbrs/strat/scholo geared) and 3 druids on the raid (2 resto, 1 feral), and healing was in short supply. We asked them to just sit and regen mana, as it was taxing on our lack of healers to keep them up too, what with the aoe DoT's, etc. Everyone melee's against surgers, so that would be one time to hopefully get an OoC proc. Against Lava Giants or Core hounds, not so much. Being a druid, it was tough to ask them that, as I respect the power of all of our forms, but for the benefit of the raid and to keep it rolling as smoothly as possible it was necessary.

On normal raids we have 6 priests 4 druids, and even then, for efficiency purposes, we have healing rotations worked out and druids are healers. I'm sure if you find a guild that is geared out pretty well, who has had MC on farm status for a while, melee'ing as a moonkin would be fine. Especially a moonkin who was familiar with which mobs cast aoe fear / dot fire / cleave / stomp etc.

Waterloo
06-15-2006, 07:22 PM
Well, I'm mostly Moonkin for pvp and all so yeah...would OoC work well in PvP and is it actually Proc per minute?



By the way, I like the fast replys on this place...even though it suggests people are addicted...it's still nice.

Kyane
06-15-2006, 08:15 PM
I'm feral and always re-cast OoC each time I shift. I'm HEAVILY into PvP as well =P

OoC has a chance to proc per hit. The more you hit, the more of a chance to proc.

In PvE: OoC + Bear + Swipe ( Spam ) = Lot-o-proc. From my experience it seems to have a chance to proc on per hit per mob, not per action. So, with swipe and hitting 3 mobs at a time it increases your odds.

For a Moonie in PvP, you might want to equip a dagger or something that hits fast for a greater proc chance.

Waterloo
06-15-2006, 08:33 PM
Thanks! (I want the Fang of Venoxis...;) )

gwmort
06-16-2006, 08:48 AM
For a Moonie in PvP, you might want to equip a dagger or something that hits fast for a greater proc chance.

Thats the other reason I think the Hand of Edward the Odd is the Best Moonkin Weapon in game right now.

swearword
06-16-2006, 12:05 PM
Thats the other reason I think the Hand of Edward the Odd is the Best Moonkin Weapon in game right now.

I would agree with that. Instant SF FTW!!! oh what I crit 1 sec wrath to follow. what ooc proc free MF!! RAWR

ok sorry I will quit dreaming now :)

gwmort
06-16-2006, 02:02 PM
I would agree with that. Instant SF FTW!!! oh what I crit 1 sec wrath to follow. what ooc proc free MF!! RAWR

ok sorry I will quit dreaming now :)

but have you ever noticed the speed? 1.6! faster than some daggers!

swearword
06-16-2006, 03:49 PM
Oh no I hadn't even noticed that. That is sweet!!!

midg2001
06-16-2006, 06:41 PM
Yes I am a noob. this is my first horde Toon. I am just about to hit lvl 20 (4 bars). I am going feral for the lvling aspect of things. I want to lvl as fast as I can and have a great chance of withstanding a beating. I have a Pally and a Priest. Personaly, I have never been killed by a druid my lvl. However, I just ganked a lvl 19 hunter and then a 19 mage (on a normal server). My queastion is "What is the fastest build (or talents) to go after for lvling to 60?" I know you get this all the time. I am not asking for a build, I am asking am I on the right track? I love my Druid (other than te size, have gnome and Dwarf). He is a blast. I have yet to die (other than BG), by anything my lvl. Any advice tat pertains to the druid no matter what would be great. I am loving the horde and love my druid. Any help would be great. Thanks for your time and help with this noob Hordey. (P.S. I can not spell worth a damn). :iamwithst

goa
06-17-2006, 07:48 AM
Thats the other reason I think the Hand of Edward the Odd is the Best Moonkin Weapon in game right now.

It is. No discussion.

Rius
06-18-2006, 04:08 AM
midg2001: Druids are (at least have the potential to be) masters of survival. You can normally run away in any situation, and in PVP I manage quite regulary to run a bit away, get of combat, and slip into catform prowl.

For levelling purposes, feral is regarded as the best by pretty much the entire community.

Why?
- Lots of +agi leather as quest rewards, much more than anything else.
- Kill a mob, shift out, heal, shift in, kill next mob. No downtime. Mana free damage.

Personally... I'd say consider going first 13 feral, then 11 Resto. Nature's Focus is the only way of getting of a heal against more than 2 mobs before you get barkskin at lvl 44. Even then, it'll still be useful. Furor is also extremely useful. Insect Swarm is nice when you've already got 10 points in Resto. Also put a single point in Nature's Grace. I only use rank 1 of it, and I use it when I need to run away.

More important than talents... equipment. I've only got 13 points in Feral, and I've got way more armor than most druids around (in all forms, but especially bearform), more survivability by far. The trick... thick hide, +armor on weapon, sergeant's cloak, good amount of resistances and lots of stamina. Stamina on all my equipment. At lvl 40, I had 4400 armor in bearform. But wait! I've got good armor in all my forms (at least better than everyone else). So I found that I rarely needed to heal at all except between combat (soloed same-level elites without needing to heal in-combat ... in cat form only). I think armor's underrated for PvE, and resistances are also quite useful.

Of course, I can't match the dps of my +str/+agi stacked full feral brethren... but I prefer the survivability.


Regarding the discussion itself; I've strongly considered going balance, but not until I've tested Swiftmend. So... my current question is 7/13/31 or 20/0/31. Probably the first, I'll just have to see.

Denali
06-18-2006, 01:57 PM
Holy... watching those vids of the 2k crits with SF is making me drool. At level 60, I'm respeccing to Balance.

Now then, on to MY little story. I originally started out as a Resto druid. I kept this until around level 20, when I fell in love with kitty. At that moment, I respecced to Feral and started dishin' out the damage. Upon hitting 40, I grew curious... many druids are respeccing to Balance. What makes it so great? Well, I respecced myself (with help from a guildie who was also Balance... she wanted me to try it and offered to pay for the respecc AND the respecc back to Feral if I did not like it). Lemme say this much... I hit like a truck. I was pulling up mass crits, and my mana was still quite high. However, my survivability took a massive hit. I frequently found myself causing more DPS than a rogue, and thus, I drew the aggro better than a lowbie in MC. I'm currently Feral specced, and ran two guildies through SFK last night without either one dying... they're both level 15. I'll be sure to respecc though, I'll tell ya that much.

Balance- Massive damage, Moonkin aura
Feral- Great survivability, great for soloing, LotP
Resto- Healing on par, if not better, than priests

Woodsman
07-31-2006, 11:56 AM
I eat moonkins for breakfest, lunch, and dinner

lorath
07-31-2006, 01:23 PM
Same here. Feral > Balance

gwmort
07-31-2006, 01:56 PM
Same here. Feral > Balance

I don't really like the title of this thread, all the this spec greater than that spec discussions are kind of pointless. There is no one best spec for every situation, resto is probably easier to raid with, feral is probably more fun to solo/ 5-man in, and moonkin is great for those that really like to play an odd-ball spec or dominate in AV.

Also, a lot of people try moonkin, don't like it and spec out before they ever get good at it, so just because you are "eating" a moonkin, don't assume it is a good moonkin that knows what they are doing, or that all moonkins are the same.

lorath
08-01-2006, 08:33 AM
There is no skill in AV, nor is there skill in sitting in the back, clicking on a person, and hitting the same button (Starfire) over and over again.

I still stand by my fact that Moonkin, wether it be fun or not to people, still sucks in the damage and utility aspect. You are not a shaman, you are not a melee caster because there is no such thing. Shamans have instant cast spells they use in combat that do uber damage that rivals your 3.0 sec starfire. They can heal in their DPS form and also can use totems. Moonkin can only cast wrath, starfire, and moonfire. (Insect swarm is a joke)

Smart casters should eat you alive with their silence and any decently geared melee person should rip through your 10k armor because you only have....maybe....4k HP, instead of the 8k you would get in bear form.

I want a video GW, then maybe Ill stop disliking Moonkins.

gwmort
08-01-2006, 08:49 AM
I think maybe we should just meet up on the PTR some time.

lorath
08-01-2006, 09:00 AM
Can you tranfer a character over to the PTR with the same gear you have? Or are we going to be stuck with our epic Tier 3 healbot crap?

gwmort
08-01-2006, 10:24 AM
I don't know, I've never tried it. If you are really just talking about talent builds or character skill though, perhaps the best match-up would be without any gear, just inate talents and abilities.

lorath
08-01-2006, 10:44 AM
So you want me to duel you with no gear on so that I have 200 AP in cat form and like 2% crit chance, but you will still get your regular damage from a starfire?

Feral's skills rank up with gear basically. We duel with full gear on.

No, you can enjoy 1300 AP, 28% crit, and 5k HP, shredding your face. Show me the power of Moonkin, please...

gwmort
08-01-2006, 11:43 AM
Thats fine, I'd prefer keeping my +200 spell damage, 7400AC, and +5% spell crit from gear.

The point I was trying to make though is that in most match-ups you're comparing gear rather than skill or utility. Anyone in level 85 gear will beat some one in level 63 gear. I know you raid, and you know I don't so you probably have better gear.

That said, I usually don't fight druids one on one because it is usually a long and exhausting.

I'm sure you've shredded warriors before, but you know most of your attacks won't kill me too quickly with my plate equivalent armor. I know if I get your health low you will be shifting and healing. You can expect I will be rooting and sleeping you and I can expect you to shift out etc..., ultimately it is likely to come down to who's mana can out last, and of course your pool is probably larger, but my spirit is probably higher for our innervates.

All in all, I bet I can beat you one on one perhaps one time in three, but I will give it a shot. Even if you do win, I expect I can get you to respect what I can do.

Trixtaa
08-01-2006, 01:21 PM
IMO, just go with what you have more fun with. Both are decent builds.

Ghost Bear
08-01-2006, 02:52 PM
All in all, I bet I can beat you one on one perhaps one time in three, but I will give it a shot. Even if you do win, I expect I can get you to respect what I can do.


No you won't, because this is an issue of epeen. Even if you win there will be excuses. Heck I honestly doubt the two of you will fight because one of you will probably back down. Not trying to single either of you out, but that's just how internet challenges always play out.

That said, no gear would be better save for choice of weapon. But if gear is a must, then it has to be matched. So I say 55-60 greens. You must post snapshot. You must have 3rd party present prior to fight to inspect both of you for blues/epics. You must not change to blue/epics weapons at all during fight. Though if you have a green that is fine. Violation will result in forum flames to the point of deletion:devil-lau

Either way, I think the whole mess is idiotic to begin with. But that said if you do fight; Gw I hope you make him eat his words. I don't know either of you personally but right now lorath you are coming off like an @$$. And I hate elitists regardless of class, spec, whatever...

gwmort
08-01-2006, 04:52 PM
Whoa, slow down sport. I am not trying to throw some smack down or anything. I don't think lorath has much experience with skilled moonkins, and I would like to demonstrate for him. I doubt even if I were to make a video he would accept it, since it wouldn't necessarily reflect the gear or skill of my opponents (besides the fact I have no idea how to make or post a video).

Lorath-
I just read the PTR FAQ, and it says players from PvP realms go to the PvP PTR and PvE realms copy to the normal PTR. WHich type of realm are you on? (I think you once said PvP, I am PvE [Perenolde])

I wonder if any of us on different realms will find ourselves in the same Battlegroups as the cross server PvP goes live.

If you can copy to the normal PTR, try to by Wednesday night, the next time I will be available. If you can't we could try getting the pre-canned druids and just respeccing them for feral and balance and see how they compare, but you seem to say that a feral druid isn't as viable as a balance druid unless the feral gears up significantly. I would suggest the opposite is true, naked mana pool with no HotW would bite for me, but whatever.

I did not mean to make an e-peen challenge, just trying to help educate the druid community. I could care less about observers or documentation.

GB raises a good point though that you might not realize my full benefit as an opponent, it might be better if we were on the same faction and could duo some quests or encounters so you could see what great support a moonkin can be.

If you are interested let me know, if you want to keep it more private you can do so by PM if you like, I really don't care. I respect your right to your opinion and your chosen playstyle, I would just like the opportunity to show you I deserve the same.

dingodog
08-01-2006, 06:22 PM
Hi There,

I feel like I'm butting in on a private debate here, but it's interesting / educational to get different, experienced, views expressed in a civil manner. For those of us (well me!) who don't know, can you expand on what is PTR and 'pre-canned' druids?

Thanks

Dingodog

Ghost Bear
08-01-2006, 08:37 PM
Hi There,

I feel like I'm butting in on a private debate here, but it's interesting / educational to get different, experienced, views expressed in a civil manner. For those of us (well me!) who don't know, can you expand on what is PTR and 'pre-canned' druids?

Thanks

Dingodog


PTR=Public Test Realm, Test servers which players may download and log onto which contain unreleased game versions. This way blizzard may study the results of the next game coding prior to real game initiation. Essentially we help them test their work.

Pre-canned is referring to the characters on the test realms. You have an option while setting up your play on a PTR, you may copy up to 2 of your existing characters for play on the PTR. Or you may opt to have a premade character or "pre-canned" of the class you choose. These premade toons are set up in a way with gear and talents along with some established cash flow (I think the last one was 100g) in order to test new material, which usually requires level 60 and substantial gear achievement. The downfall to this option is that the gear that often give druids is healing based, so for feral and balance druids wishing to test results in areas their main character is yet unable to access, there is limited return in feedback.

This spec testing brings up probably the most frequent use of the PTR. Class experimentation. Since money is copied over to the realm, or your premade will be given a supply; it is an efficient way to test various talents choices without actually burning through your "real" character's cash flow on respec costs in the active realms.

Hope that helps

cross
08-02-2006, 07:50 AM
gwmort, sorry to chime in late in the discussion, but I was wondering what kind of burst damage you've been able to put out in PvP. It -appears- that I may be up next for the End of Dreams and I've been seriously considering dumping my non-resto points into balance as it better fits my style of play in PvP. I've seen some balance druids with crazy numbers in videos, but for all I know, they could have just taken snapshots of their best crits and noncrits. I wouldn't want to waste a loot on EoD unless it was worth it! (and before someone says, omg it's an awesome feral weapon; no, nuking has its place in pve, but feral dps very rarely does in my case)

cross
08-02-2006, 07:59 AM
Smart casters should eat you alive with their silence and any decently geared melee person should rip through your 10k armor because you only have....maybe....4k HP, instead of the 8k you would get in bear form.
You can easily play around silences if you have any experience at all. One easy strategy is simoply to travel form out of range at any time you are silenced. You could also bash the target if you are 1v1, or fake a heal with your hearth, among other things. As far as the armour goes, having high armour is amazingly effective against melee in PvP. I've had two Warriors with Ashkandi's beating on me before and managed to kill one before dying myself. With only 12k armour in my bear gear, its not all about the HP. One thing you were definately right about though is that Druid's are highly gear dependant, especially feral Druids. The difference between a geared feral and one without is like a water pistol and a bazooka lol.

gwmort
08-02-2006, 08:56 AM
gwmort, sorry to chime in late in the discussion, but I was wondering what kind of burst damage you've been able to put out in PvP. It -appears- that I may be up next for the End of Dreams and I've been seriously considering dumping my non-resto points into balance as it better fits my style of play in PvP. I've seen some balance druids with crazy numbers in videos, but for all I know, they could have just taken snapshots of their best crits and noncrits. I wouldn't want to waste a loot on EoD unless it was worth it! (and before someone says, omg it's an awesome feral weapon; no, nuking has its place in pve, but feral dps very rarely does in my case)

Some of my gear numbers are above somewhere, but I only have about +150 to spell damage at this point. I wear all leather (except shoulders right now), which limits my damage numbers, and I have a personal preference for items that add directly to spell crit, which I usually have to pay for by sacrificing +dmg.

My average SF hits for about 750 dmg, my typical crit is around 1300-1400. My average MF hits for about 350, and crits around 600, my crit rate on MFs in moonkin form is currently over 20% (13% from talents, 5% from gear, and whatever int adds). My wraths hit for 300-400 and crit over 700. I play on a PvE server, so my PvP experience is from BGs, but I typically try to open with a SF (especially if they don't see me yet), then immediately knock out a MF followed by a wrath, usually with the benefit of a nature's grace proc from either the SF or MF.

So bottom line, in the first 2 seconds (not counting initial cast time of SF if they weren't aware of me) I dump in between 1400 and 2700 depending how lucky I get with the crits, I would say my average on that initial volley is 2000 burst damage, and of course that leaves my MF ticking for another 130 dmg every 2 seconds.

Of course if I am really lucky they will be stunned from the SF and I can whip out yet another wrath before they are able to close to melee range and I run away.

That is more a one on one scenario of course, when in group PvP I like to root as many people as possible and spread out the MF to help my group keep some control, and of course my favorite is sleeping druid and shaman flag runners.

lorath
08-02-2006, 10:09 AM
Ah I wont even waste my time responding to ghost bear's comment. If you think the discussion was stupid, then why did you post???

And as for cross, if you had two full health warriors beating on you with ashkandi, I would LOVE to see how you managed to get one below 75%, let alone kill them, before they eat you.

@GW, Yes Im on a PVP server, not a PVE. Ill work on getting my character on the test realm but if that wont work, I still dont see why you cant make a full video of you in a BG.

gwmort
08-02-2006, 10:42 AM
@GW, Yes Im on a PVP server, not a PVE. Ill work on getting my character on the test realm but if that wont work, I still dont see why you cant make a full video of you in a BG.

Well if we can't copy into the same realm, I am still up for trying the premade druids (you can respec them can't you?). I was even thinking of things we could do compare other aspects than just one on one fighting, maybe timing our grinding through a certain number or type of mob, or seeing who can down a devilsaur faster or something.

I currently have no mods or add-ons, and it is primarily because I am a techno-phobe with no idea how the game works on the computer, and I am afraid if I mess something up I won't be able to fix it.

Besides which, I don't think you would be impressed with what I do in BGs. First, because of the above I don't even have scrolling combat text so you might have trouble seeing what was going on. Second, you already said you don't care about how I do in AV, where I get best use of my skills. Even in the other BGs I do best as part of a team, letting casters piggyback off my aura and using my cc and range damge, without usually getting too close to the action.

I get the impression you want to see me square off against various opponents and see how I do one on one. I get a fair amount of dueling in between BGs, but I suspect you would claim that it isn't "real" enough, since I typically begin everyduel by casting regrowth on myself just as the timer starts and then shifting and hitting NG, in real PvP I wouldn't be that prepared.

If you want to see Balance PvP videos there are plenty out there, but I think we've been over this before.

lorath
08-02-2006, 02:09 PM
Nah all those videos are just crits when the Druid has ToEP or ZHC up and berserker. Those arent real PvP videos, those are buffed out the arse videos. Basically, they are what a druid CAN do, but not what they normally do.

Maybe this weekend Ill throw together some videos of me in the BGs and post it here. Well see how much time I have....

dingodog
08-02-2006, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the reply Ghost, I dind't know about Test Realms so have learnt something today :)

Dingodog

goa
08-02-2006, 03:15 PM
...

cross
08-02-2006, 06:48 PM
And as for cross, if you had two full health warriors beating on you with ashkandi, I would LOVE to see how you managed to get one below 75%, let alone kill them, before they eat you.


Half the fight was practically 1v1 thanks to Nature's Grasp. It went a little something like this: root war, Starfire, Moonfire, Insect Swarm, FF, Feral Charge, Maul, second war charges, stun first, caster form, Nature's Grasp the other, Regrowth, Rejuv, Bear, Maul, Maul, Maul, Caster, MF, NS+Wrath. The second war intercepted me as I was healing up again and had a nice crit volley followed by Execute to seal the deal. I had some reasonably nice Maul crits in there given that it was on plate. The war I was fighting couldn't have had more than 5k hp as he was geared out in full dps stuff, bar no expense to other stats. ANYWAY, I do consider it lucky to come out of that situation with a kill, but the only reason I survived to fight was the armor mitigation provided by 360% of AC <3.

I think the first skill a Druid develops at 60 is the ability to run away well. This alone makes us rather effective combat healers, evading death while finding convenient spots to pop in some powerful healing. After that, what spec you use owes its success to your style, skill, gear, and strategy. If you're running Moonkin in a WSG where the other 9 players are running around like bobble-headed chickens, it doesn't matter how good you are. When you're a sitting duck, you'll be lucky to get off one Starfire. But hey, Moonkin definately matches up better against Rogues than a high AP kitty caught off guard, but a skilled Feral will still win the matchup. If you don't build a reasonable gear set around your spec, you're gonna be a water pistol out there and no one will be scared. If your style is to sit at range and fight from a distance, you probably will be uncomfortable as a feral, and the same applies vice versa for the roguelings. Trying to say Feral > Balance is like saying Apples > Oranges when you really meant to say I like peanut butter bc it goes good with dem apples.

Either way, I'm the happy healer that no one knows is there until they see themselves win a 3 on 1 and wonder how the hell they lived :p As long as you guys make sure the enemy is pissed off at you and not me, I think we'll all be happy! Btw, resto > apples :)

goa
08-02-2006, 08:04 PM
I think the first skill a Druid develops at 60 is the ability to run away well.

QFT!

Running away/getting away with it.. is what our class does BEST! Many ppl in the wow-community thinks running away is cowardice and suck etc.. FAR from it. Run away and restealth and finish the job.

I have many rogues in my guild that say it sucks that druids are better assassins than rogues. By assassin i mean kill someone from nowwhere and get away with it. Rogues only have vanish. And it's on a FAT cooldown. Druids have MANY options.

Why do you think we excel at running with the flag in WSG?

Run FFS run! You're a druid! Nothing more frustrating for an opponent than a guy that moves around doing stuff. Just standing around like a big statue pressing autoattack is monkeybusiness. :D

gwmort
08-02-2006, 10:13 PM
Well said goa

lorath
08-03-2006, 08:35 AM
@goa - Most of the premades I play against that know what their doing dont let the Druids run the flag, but if they do, they run the flag in bear form. Why? Because getting from Point A to Point B fast doesnt win games in WSG, its support. Try killing anyone, even if they are walking across the field, that has priests, druids, paladins healing him and the other guys slaughtering the people trying to attack.

Travel form only gets you farther away from your healers and usually gets you screwed when you are playing against good PVPers. Now it does have its advantages, I have been in Pugs and been able to use travel form to dodge people and break snares and what not. But 9 times out of 10 you will see a warrior running the flag with everyone else supporting him in the middle. Travel form flag running is a thing of the past for good premades.

cross
08-03-2006, 10:17 AM
I think it's an easily defensible point to say that Druids are the best flag carriers in any situation against any skill level of opponent. The strategy of running a flag, however, can get pretty deep.

edit: I can see one case where it would be best for a Warrior to be the carrier- that you are the only healer in the group against a moderately skilled opponent or worse.

gwmort
08-03-2006, 10:21 AM
That is true lorath, but also dependent on your team strategy.

when I stealth in for the flag I let my raid know I will be coming out with it and where to meet me for support. Someimes we can even get traps laid along the path for me to lead pursuers over, and we stagger the healers at intervals along my track. Its sort of like a huge relay, it lets the healers prepare big heals as I come across their range rather than just following with flash heals or renews/rejuvs.

gwmort
08-03-2006, 10:23 AM
I think it's an easily defensible point to say that Druids are the best flag carriers in any situation against any skill level of opponent. The strategy of running a flag, however, can get pretty deep.

edit: I can see one case where it would be best for a Warrior to be the carrier- that you are the only healer in the group against a moderately skilled opponent or worse.

Druids are arguably the best, but don't be fooled that warriors aren't also great. Most of the preforms on my server use some epicced out warriors as the primary carriers, and it is near impossible to bring them down if they have 2 or more healers with them.

cross
08-03-2006, 10:39 AM
Druids are arguably the best, but don't be fooled that warriors aren't also great. Most of the preforms on my server use some epicced out warriors as the primary carriers, and it is near impossible to bring them down if they have 2 or more healers with them.

Of course, Warriors make excellent carriers with support, but I think bears better suited for two reasons. First, our mitigation and hp are simply better in most PvP settings (this is assuming of course you have the foresight to drop into your bear gear when you are running a flag, something that Itemrack makes incredibly easy to do). Second, a Warrior can do far more DPS than we can if left to do the dirty work; their Hamstrings/Piercing Howls also make it extremely difficult to focus fire down a flag carrier.

Oh how we are getting off topic lol. I gotta say that PvP lately has been pretty crazy for me. In guild groups we either get people who essentially surrender upon seeing our names and lose the game in around 7-10 minutes, or we get custom groups who will do anything to beat us- bringing 10 engineers with MC helms, Charge helms, net-o-matics, and fully stocked with everything from Major HP/Mana pots to Free Action Potions. When you're up against that sort of opposition, we stop thinking about who is gonna carry the flag and start cheering on anyone will make it out of their base alive lol.

gwmort
08-03-2006, 12:19 PM
Too true, we should probably let this thread die and carry on these many conversations somewhere else.

lorath
08-03-2006, 01:13 PM
Who needs free action potions when you have 3 paladins spamming their dispells....i hate paladins so much

Claritondeus
08-03-2006, 01:45 PM
Trying to say Feral > Balance is like saying Apples > Oranges when you really meant to say I like peanut butter bc it goes good with dem apples.

Very well said. Lol peanut butter is goood.

Either way, I'm the happy healer that no one knows is there until they see themselves win a 3 on 1 and wonder how the hell they lived :p As long as you guys make sure the enemy is pissed off at you and not me, I think we'll all be happy! Btw, resto > apples :)

Same! Woot resto! Amazing how much love healers get in the BG's. Heh I was hidden in the bushes at the Gold Mine in AB last night and healing a Paladin with 5/8 T2 and 3/8 T1 and the Destroyer of Worlds 2h sword, and brought him back up to full life 4 separate times. He ended slaughtering 4 horde 'solo'. Shortly after I received a pst from him saying "I luv you" lol

I've been seeing a lot more warriors run the flag recently, and yeah they are hard to get down with some good healing.

goa
08-04-2006, 10:05 PM
@goa - Most of the premades I play against that know what their doing dont let the Druids run the flag, but if they do, they run the flag in bear form. Why? Because getting from Point A to Point B fast doesnt win games in WSG, its support.

I wasn't really talking about WSG. I was talking about running in general. But sure indeed, WSG is a big fat team effort. I always run in bear if stuff is happening.. but getting from point A to point B if your team has already taken care of the problem is better to do in cheetah.

Nice that the premades you play with have found a good use for a warrior runner. If it fits your style go for it. :) On my server the teams are usually so tight you have to improvise like hell because everyone has a counter for everything you've planned (yes, the other side don't like you running away with their flag, they usually know how you will try and defend the flagcarrier and take proper action). This is where the druid versatility SHINES. A druid is very hard to crowd control and he is better at surviving on his own (it be heal or run away or stun and run away or whatever) than a warrior (IF he has to survive alone/with little backup that is.. in a perfect world where your gameplan works like clockwork a tank warrior would probably be a better choice). :)