I am deciding to respec from resto build and see alot of people in the forum praising 14/32/5 as a great raid/pvp, feral build.

My question is, should a "feral dps" build in which I run alot of instances still end up with 5 total points in nature's grasp?

Seems like a waste for pve/instance player, to keep 5 points in nature's grasp when it can only be used "outdoors"?

Any thoughts on a non-pvp, mostly instance player cat/feral build? Could those balance points be better spent elsewhere? I understand those 5 points do lead to ooc, but it is still 5 points.

Thanks!

Natural weapons - 10% more damage = good
OOC - free rage energy attacks = good
natural shapeshifter - cheaper shifts for furor and healing = good

So to get this goodness you have 2 choices, shortening your cast time on wrath, or giving yourself another cc (although just as limited as entangling roots). If you really are never outside, never farm, and never run an outdoor instance (ZG, AQ20, AQ40, ZF) then faster wraths might be for you, but I doubt you will spend much time in caster to use it.

Perhaps you'd do just as well splitting the points? (2 in grasp and 3 in wrath)

You get natures grasp as a full feral druid because you dont have an instant cast heal. With natures grasp, you have an instant cast CC that can allow you to get away long enough to heal yourself then get back into the fight. Imagine a melee class beating on you, your low on health, and you dont have natures swiftness, your bash missed (as usual), and warstomp isnt an option even if your tauren, because if your in caster and you get stunned its game over.

I ALWAYS use it if I see a rogue around, toss it on me, shift to bear, first hit he will usually try to stun me and the roots will grab him. If you hold strafe and spam jump you can usually get that tiny bit of distance in between his first and second stun that gets you out of range of his attacks so both you and the rogue basically are frozen for a few seconds. If the roots hold, you can take off in travel get some distance, and then FF and reroot or toss a moonfire and a rejuv then shift to bear. Decreasing casting of wrath is pointless because as feral you wont be casting and even if you were, you cant cast many wraths before your OOM.

If you really are never outside, never farm, and never run an outdoor instance (ZG, AQUA, AQ40, ZF) then faster wraths might be for you, but I doubt you will spend much time in caster to use it.

I ran zf as full resto and never used roots very much and I did not know that AQ was outdoors, haven't gotten that far.

ALWAYS use it if I see a rogue around, toss it on me, shift to bear, first hit he will usually try to stun me and the roots will grab him. If you hold strafe and spam jump you can usually get that tiny bit of distance in between his first and second stun that gets you out of range of his attacks so both you and the rogue basically are frozen for a few seconds

Clearly I have a lot to learn (re tactics) switching from full resto to feral. Your technique for utilizing roots seems great. Is this mostly for pvp encounters? I imagine my play style more of off-dps in instances with a main tank and healer (this has been my history in the game so far). With an off-dps/off-tank role and back up healing duties, would my points in balance be better suited in resto?

Thanks again for all of the input, it is deeply appreciated

Nature's Grasp is a great PvP talent. While it can be used for grinding and all....if you don't PvP and mainly run instances with little outdoor grinding I would say just put the points in resto. The 14/32/5 build is my alt time favorite PvP build, but for raiding if you want to be mainly feral, I would say go with a 30/21 build.

Heres how it goes. 14/32/5 is the highest DPS you can get as a feral druid. This is generally for those who go for instance DPS and burst damage dps.

30/21 is for those who want to actually play a hybrid. Not only do you have the majority of the feral talents that you need to do well in forms, you also have the healing talents that make you a better healer. You will no longer have OOC for that nice suprise burst DPS but you will have an instant cast full heal to make up for it. (or an instant cast roots, sleep, etc. ) You can also heal very well with the increased mana pool and reduced mana cost of heals.

Natures Grasp is mainly a PvP talent but it will save you a ton. The second you see a melee class just pop Natures Grasp...if a warrior charges you, bam hes rooted in place and you have time to get your stuff straight and get ready to kill him. If a rogue jumps you, you can get him off you while running away with this spell. It even works well too when you have a hunters pet annoying you, toss natures grasp up, watch the pet get rooted, and continue fighting the hunter. I think it is a must have if you dont go 30/21

The balance tree is really lacking. I think the best talent in there is the one that gives you 100% dmg to critical spell strikes which doesnt calculate +dmg.

For optimal raid and pretty good PvP, i'd say 8/11/32. You get NG which is great against melee. Improved bash and feral charge (a must for hunters). And you'll be very difficult to kill as you can heal like a madman. I suggest this build over anything else. My current build is mainly b/c I off-tank in BWL/AQ40 sometimes so I need the feral talents (extra hp in bear is nice).

If however, you want to do nothing but PvP, the 14/32/5 is a very solid build.

And roots can be used in outdoor instances. ZF, ZG, and maybe AQ20?? AQ40 is mostly indoors. Never tried using roots during the clear before Skeram.

Ok, I like the thought of 30/21 since I mostly play in crappy pug's and I have yet to see a "LF Feral Druid" and see "LF healer" every other second in the LFG channel.

My question now is what should the order of the points be in a 30/21 build? I am guessing mostly feral if not all feral first then fill in resto tree.

Second question, in general, in instance runs as a 30/21 -dps-leveling player and assuming there is a primary healer and primary tank already in the group, are there any suggested/recommended general playing tactics for a dps role? i.e., sit back in cat, wait for warrior to gain agro then dps in cat, etc..

To answer your first question, yes, feral first if your goal is to get to 60 as fast as possible. You can always respec later too.

You say "30/21 dps leveling player"....does that mean you're still leveling (not yet 60)? Because even at 60, if there is a primary healer and tank, i will help heal the other two dps classes and occasionally off tank if things go bad.

My friends and I used to do Baron runs a lot. Priest/mage/druid. We usually had a pally/warrior and rogue (pally tanking in Undead instances is pretty amazing). In these runs, I could have helped dps, but i opted to heal. This allowed the dps to run amok and allowed the tank to use a 2H weapon. This is turn led to a faster instance run. Yes, healing is not as "fun" as dps, but we're druids....we help out anywhere we can.

If you go 30/21 just play a hybrid....

I normally start out DPSing, if I see we need more healing Ill shift out and start helping the main healer. If I see the healer getting beat on, Ill shift to bear and pull aggro off him. You will eventually learn to think on the fly and shift without even thinking about it.

You say "30/21 dps leveling player"....does that mean you're still leveling (not yet 60)? Because even at 60, if there is a primary healer and tank, i will help heal the other two dps classes and occasionally off tank if things go bad

Of course, no problem with back-up heal, and the leveling I meant that I am relatively slow to get to 60 since I play only a few hours a day.

I was hoping to get or find a link to some 5 man group tactics as an off-dps cat in instance runs. If such a document/link exisits :):nerd:

I have a 34 feral, 5 resto 12 balance build. Only have 1 point in impr shapehiftning as I usually run around in hybrid gear anyway I have mana to shapeshift. :)

I don't have a great deal of experience in 5-man tactics,but I'll share some observations and lessons learned (some the hard way) as a 14/32/5:

1) Have both DPS (STR, AGI, STA) gear as well as Healing (INT, SPR, +Heals) and have it all repaired before oging in (don't ask). Even if a mage is going, I always stock up on teh mana pots and water from Innkeepers before going. Assume Nothing.

2) If healing, focus on MT for HoT and HTs, Rejuv's should work fine if the MT is keeping Aggro and your not biting off more than the party can chew. While we have all have innervate, look at the battle and see what's left before casting, you may be able to get by without it and have it saved for the next round of mobs.

3)ALWAYS HIT ESC BEFORE CASTING INNERVATE OR ELSE YOU WILL SENSELESSLY CAST IT ON YOUR TANK (plz don't ask how many times I've given a warrior the gift of mana).

4) If in Vent (the only way to go IMO), communicate with MT and have him call when to pull out the Battle Rez. Sometimes reviving the MT on what appears to be a wash wastes the Rez
and leaves you waiting 30 mins.

5) Taking Aggro as healer (sometimes it happens) drop to bear form. If you die and your the only healer, the group will follow if during hard mobs. Go Bear and take the aggro back to the tank then resume healing (from a safe distance). If you have taken damage in the process, flip frenzied regen while taking the "lost sheep" back to the MT.

6) The one lesson regarding DPS is to make sure the MT or OT has the mobs attention. Catform doesn't provide the armor that bear does, but is your bread and butter for damage. I write a simple macro of "\assist [name of MT]" and put it on my bar so that I can make sure I'm dps a mob the tank has and not one-on-onein' a mob (b/c of the strain it puts on the healer in the group). When doing this, I rarely lose health and can employ FF and Shred and make the battle really quick. If the opposite occurs, now the healer is cussin' me for taking more attention than the MT.

You can learn alot of how catform can be maximized by watching the rogues. Prowl, followed by Ravage or Pounce, then possibly Shred, FF, then get to wailing can throw a ton of damage on a mob, especially if you crit.

7) Eventhough your DPS'in, send a tell to the healer (or healers) to holler if low on mana or health so that you can pick up slack or hit them with innervate. The health bar I monitor as much as my own is that of the healer(s).

8) It bears repeating again, ALWAYS HIT ESC BEFORE CASTING INNERVATE OR ELSE YOU WILL SENSELESSLY CAST IT ON YOUR TANK!

Again, that is my limited experience and is subject to daily change.

FOR THE HORDE!

Your entire post lost its credibility at

"3)ALWAYS HIT ESC BEFORE CASTING INNERVATE OR ELSE YOU WILL SENSELESSLY CAST IT ON YOUR TANK (plz don't ask how many times I've given a warrior the gift of mana)."

then again at

"8) It bears repeating again, ALWAYS HIT ESC BEFORE CASTING INNERVATE OR ELSE YOU WILL SENSELESSLY CAST IT ON YOUR TANK!"

lawl :texla:

LMAO....never attested my body of knowledge to credibility, only the hard lessons.

However, you got to love a game that can get so intense that your feverishly keeping multiple ppl alive and managing your own resources to do such a thing. The instinct for the left pinky finger to reach up and hit ESC is now fully engrained.:texla:

Yes I admit I too have innervated other non mana classes but thats mainly due to discord unit frames sucking and me having to click perfectly on the health bar to select the target. :eusa_booh

Yes I admit I too have innervated other non mana classes but thats mainly due to discord unit frames sucking and me having to click perfectly on the health bar to select the target. :eusa_booh



uhhh....YEAH...me too..whatever he said:bs: muhahahaha

I don't have a great deal of experience in 5-man tactics,but I'll share some observations and lessons learned (some the hard way) as a 14/32/5:

1) Have both DPS (STR, AGI, STA) gear as well as Healing (INT, SPR, +Heals) and have it all repaired before oging in (don't ask). Even if a mage is going, I always stock up on teh mana pots and water from Innkeepers before going. Assume Nothing.

2) If healing, focus on MT for HoT and HTs, Rejuv's should work fine if the MT is keeping Aggro and your not biting off more than the party can chew. While we have all have innervate, look at the battle and see what's left before casting, you may be able to get by without it and have it saved for the next round of mobs.

3)ALWAYS HIT ESC BEFORE CASTING INNERVATE OR ELSE YOU WILL SENSELESSLY CAST IT ON YOUR TANK (plz don't ask how many times I've given a warrior the gift of mana).

4) If in Vent (the only way to go IMO), communicate with MT and have him call when to pull out the Battle Rez. Sometimes reviving the MT on what appears to be a wash wastes the Rez
and leaves you waiting 30 mins.

5) Taking Aggro as healer (sometimes it happens) drop to bear form. If you die and your the only healer, the group will follow if during hard mobs. Go Bear and take the aggro back to the tank then resume healing (from a safe distance). If you have taken damage in the process, flip frenzied regen while taking the "lost sheep" back to the MT.

6) The one lesson regarding DPS is to make sure the MT or OT has the mobs attention. Catform doesn't provide the armor that bear does, but is your bread and butter for damage. I write a simple macro of "\assist [name of MT]" and put it on my bar so that I can make sure I'm dps a mob the tank has and not one-on-onein' a mob (b/c of the strain it puts on the healer in the group). When doing this, I rarely lose health and can employ FF and Shred and make the battle really quick. If the opposite occurs, now the healer is cussin' me for taking more attention than the MT.

You can learn alot of how catform can be maximized by watching the rogues. Prowl, followed by Ravage or Pounce, then possibly Shred, FF, then get to wailing can throw a ton of damage on a mob, especially if you crit.

7) Eventhough your DPS'in, send a tell to the healer (or healers) to holler if low on mana or health so that you can pick up slack or hit them with innervate. The health bar I monitor as much as my own is that of the healer(s).

8) It bears repeating again, ALWAYS HIT ESC BEFORE CASTING INNERVATE OR ELSE YOU WILL SENSELESSLY CAST IT ON YOUR TANK!

Again, that is my limited experience and is subject to daily change.

FOR THE HORDE!

You don't make any sense tbh. What's with this "PRESS ESC!"

If you want to see a good feral-hybrid gear build.. look down!

Pressing ESC makes you detarget whatever you have targeted. Im assuming he uses self cast so if hes not targeting anything the spells will automatically be cast on himself.

And if your going for hybrid your better off wearing the complete feralheart set, which I feel is better than the PvP set...although I do love that 15% increase in speed.

Pressing ESC makes you detarget whatever you have targeted. Im assuming he uses self cast so if hes not targeting anything the spells will automatically be cast on himself.

And if your going for hybrid your better off wearing the complete feralheart set, which I feel is better than the PvP set...although I do love that 15% increase in speed.

? pressing ESC will make you cancel whatever you do. Having it like some kind of combatplan sounds pretty stupid imo. L2keymap.

Correct..Lorath

However, GOA, I'm confused - Am I not making any sense because of the miscasts of innervate when trying to heal or the other comments as well. Thought I was sharing info to the poster's questions concerning 5-man tactics although in re-reading, I mistakenly extended into my own experience with healing as well as dps tactics. Thought it was clear, but wouldn't mind clarification if my own dps tactics are flawed.

And if your going for hybrid your better off wearing the complete feralheart set, which I feel is better than the PvP set...although I do love that 15% increase in speed.

Actually, I think the best comination comes from replacing the blue pieces of feralheart with their PvP set counterparts (obviously for slots that have counterparts), most of the weight of feralheart is in the epic pieces.

Correct..Lorath

However, GOA, I'm confused - Am I not making any sense because of the miscasts of innervate when trying to heal or the other comments as well. Thought I was sharing info to the poster's questions concerning 5-man tactics although in re-reading, I mistakenly extended into my own experience with healing as well as dps tactics. Thought it was clear, but wouldn't mind clarification if my own dps tactics are flawed.

Ok, my bad then. My appoligies. <3 If it works for you, go ahead. =)

I dont see where keymapping makes hitting the esc key much easier imo. With the mods he is using, all he does is hit esc real quick and click the button or the # of the spell he wants to cast on himself and it starts working. Pretty simple....

@GWmort...I dont know man, I think all of the pieces of feralheart are better than the stats/actual piece bonus of the pvp set. The pvp set is nice when you wear 4 pieces, but if Im not wearing all 4 for WSG, then Im not wearing any.

I have the full set of feralheart and I have about 5.5k mana, 1k AP in forms, and some nice +dmg to spells. Its really a nice hybrid set....

Lorath,

With the full feralheart set, do you still carry additional armor for various circumstances or only what's on your back?

Heh all my slots except for about 10 are filled with armor and I have all 16 slot bags.

I have a full epic healing set (stormrage, zandalar chest, cenarion pieces, will of arlokk, ZHC, etc. ), heavy tank set ( warden staff, all the trinkets and rings with armor, +200 armor cloak, ZG armor with high AC), and the cat dps gear ( thick silithid chest guard, mace of unending life, boots of the vanguard, eye of hakkar, seal of the gurrubashi berserker, earthstrike, etc.)

I always, always have my healing, tank, and dps gear with me along with my PvP set and my full feralheart set. It just depends on what mood Im in and how I feel like playing that chooses what armor Im wearing. And no, dont ask if I carry around balance gear....ask GWmort how I feel about that....

I always, always have my healing, tank, and dps gear with me along with my PvP set and my full feralheart set. It just depends on what mood Im in and how I feel like playing that chooses what armor Im wearing. And no, dont ask if I carry around balance gear....ask GWmort how I feel about that....

Well actually, with the pieces you mentioned you could have a better balance set than I do at the moment. A mix of the better feralheart and new PvP stuff makes a pretty decent pre-raid balance set. I know it wouldn't hang in the raid content you play, but would grind/farm/5 man pretty darn well.

I've also wondered whether the full ZG set would make decent moonkin armor, the set bonus is damage and the neck has nice crit boost on wrath and SF, and the AC is just sick. Include that ZHC and a couple of your tier pieces and you would be in business.

If you use Item Rack addon you might just want to play around with what kind of balance set you can make with what you have. You might be suprised.