In my guild, there has been a number of problems recently with our druids regarding, what else, wanting to have alternate speccing for raids.

I have my own opinions on the matter, but i wanted to get the forum's thoughts on the following:

for the purpose of this, lets assume that gear is not an issue here, and that all classes have comparible gear, also lets leave pvp out of the equation for this... strictly endgame raiding.

Tanking:
Bear form vs Protecion spec warrior... is a bear a Main Tank?
Is a bear an off tank or is a bear more like a fury warrior?
Can a bear hold aggro well enough in MC/BWL and beyond?
Can a bear amount enough armor to compete with a shield, prot stance AND armor?

DPS:
Cat vs Rogue... is a cat a rogue?
Can a cat really put up comparible DPS to a rogue?
Can a cat shed aggro well enough?

DPS Magic-style
OOMkin vs other magic users.... Is a oomkin a viable magic user in raids?
Is the dmg a moonkin inflict enough to warrant a raid spot?
Is the Moonkin 3% group buff a big enough dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?

Leader of the Pack:
Is that talent enough of a dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?


I know this is a lot to discuss, but i really would be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on the subject. Even though this has been addressed a number of times on forums, i am not sure ive seen anyone really hash it out. Lets see if we can try.

-wick

I think this whole issue gets skewed with a bunch of hypothetical nonsense. Bottomline is good players are more important than what class they are playing or what spec they choose.

Bears can MT, but the most likely role is likely an off-tank. They can do it just as well as most warriors, some say better since it generally requires more effort to do it in bear, goo dbear tanks are usually more attentive and skilled than a typical guild's warrior off-tanks and able to adapt and respond better. There are some bosses where being immune to polymorph helps make a bear a better choice, and I believe some where it helps not being humanoid.

Cats are not rogues, but can do competitive dps. Cats now have an innate threat reduction as of this patch which was one thing rogues always had in advantage over us.

Moonkins are not mages. As a moonkin, now with very limited raid experience, I feel the best role is as a support caster for both the dps and the healing/cleansing as necessary. It is nice to be able to swing from one to the other without regearing and still be effective.

Basically we can do any of those things on a raid, but thats not why druids are beneficial to the raid. If you were just going to tank, they probably should bring a warrior. However, as a druid we bring some unique skills, hibernating panthers/snakes, battle rezzing the MT, shifting from cat to heal up the rest of the melee dps group we're with, etc...

Druids are about utility, not to step up and be other classes, but to do what must be done (there is a distinction).

Druids are about utility, not to step up and be other classes, but to do what must be done (there is a distinction).

Totally agree. If you need a rogue, get a rogue. If you need a tank, get a warrior. Otherwise, you have a druid thats got a lot of skills. Good healing and decursing, hibernate, battle rez. When we aren't doing those main utilities, we drop down into the best form for the situation. But that form doesn't replace the class, it's just contributes where needed.

Our guild does AQ40/BWL/Naxx, and do have our feral druids (2 of them) off tank on certain boss's occasionally.

Also, even if dps from moonkin or catform isnt what a mage/rogue could do, the +3% buff is worth it IMO. As a 60 hunter, i LOVE feral druids in my party, i know the mages feel the same way about moonkin in their party's.

If your short on druids, id say you should be resto, since healing is your primary role in a guild that raids. But if you got alot of druids to spare, i dont see a problem with letting some of them roll feral or balanced. In fact i would say if you have an ubundance of druids, having a few feral/moonkin would probably increase your raids total effective dps just because of the 3% party buffs.

Druids aren't quite replacements for the core classes, as has been stated, but they can definitely hold their own.

Bear druid dps is not so hot. If they're not tanking they should be in caster form. Bear tanks are just a tiny notch below warriors, assuming they put the time/talent into sky-high AC. Individual player ability can easily account for the difference. Where druids suffer is higher susceptability to crushing blows.

Moonkin druids' 3% buff should increase the mage group's damage enough to compensate for the individual dpm loss of taking the moonkin over another mage. They key is to put them in a group of dpm casters and trust your healers to cover across group lines. Honestly, the only group view I use when healing raids is my own group. Everyone else is in a window for each class. Cross-group healing should be a mute point. The druid acts as a healing safety net for the group as well.

You end up with several groups of druids:
1. Restoration: Heal, of course, then hit moofire when last push is called, followed by a mix of caster dps and heals.

2. Moonkin: Short-term backup healers, meaning they won't have much in resto talents but are already in physical position to immediately switch to a backup healer role.

3. Caster 23/0/26 (moonglow/0/GoN+NS): This is a healing efficiency build. They'll want to heal but if you've got spare healing for a particular encounter let them go to a dps role. They should switch to full dps on last push.

4. 0/30/21 (0/HotW/NS): For maximum contribution they should be cat focussed in their feral talents. Throw them into any role at any time in the fight. That's what they've built themselves for.

5. 11/31/9 Feral dps: They'll neither have physical position nor the talents / mana to pull into any role but dps. The damage is good. This is the only spec that is fairly inflexible mid-fight. If you have to pull them out for healing you're likely beyond recovery.

What druids give you is flexibility. Due to gear, they'd want to know what roles the party is likely to need before the encounter starts.

Think of a fight like Garr. If your first two tanks are moonkin in bear form, they can switch to a caster dps role when their mobs go down. If the next two tanks are 0/30/21, they switch to backup healing to cover an errant mob explosion, but watching the other tanks in case they fall and someone needs to grab aggro. It's when things go wrong that druids really shine. Imagine: an 0/30/21 is supplemental healing on Garr, watches a tank fall, shifts bear, feral charge, growl: That's just a few seconds of loose mob.

The biggest detriment to druids in 40 man is leadership's lack of knowledge about druids. Group 4 mages with your moonkin. Group 4 rogues with your LotP druid. If your healers complain about group setup they need to get their head out their ass, download CTRA, setup class-based windows, setup the mana saver, and setup the emergency monitor.

The raid leader should call role shifts. The druid groups, as defined above, should be given names to facilitate on the fly changes.

Assuming your healing needs are met, the addition of more druids should yeild enough flexibility to more than make up for small individual contribution losses, that is: If you make use of role shifts with your hybrid spec'ed druids. It's a rarity, as seldom do I see a druid leading a 40-man.

Settle it? Not going to happen. Different guilds have different needs for what they expect thier druids to fill. The best I can offer is how my guild works. I believe this is close to what much of the horde on Icecrown expect.

Tanking:
Bear form vs Protecion spec warrior... is a bear a Main Tank?
For single groups, sure. Why not.
Is a bear an off tank or is a bear more like a fury warrior?
Off tank usually.
Can a bear hold aggro well enough in MC/BWL and beyond?
No. It's not that they can not do it, it's just that the DPS has to scale way down from what a warrior tank can hold.
Can a bear amount enough armor to compete with a shield, prot stance AND armor?
No.

DPS:
Cat vs Rogue... is a cat a rogue?
Sure.
Can a cat really put up comparible DPS to a rogue?
Comparible? Yes.
Can a cat shed aggro well enough?
Not well enough to compete with a rogue in most cases.

In general, for either tanks or DPS (or most any role for that matter), the "pure" classes are more desirable over a hybred or part time class. Warriors are the main tanks. There are specific encounters where you want a bear tank but for typical creep kills, bears are off tanks for ads.


DPS Magic-style
OOMkin vs other magic users.... Is a oomkin a viable magic user in raids?
Is the dmg a moonkin inflict enough to warrant a raid spot?
Is the Moonkin 3% group buff a big enough dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?
Not much to comment on here. Moonies are considered an oddity at best. Plus to crit? Warlocks hate them; they stay too close to getting aggro as it is. Many mages say they get enough crits already and once you get two crits in a row you have to back off the damage anyway.
I am an alt druid, but I take my druid very seriously. I play the druid because they are in short supply and my guild needed more. We are hurting for druids. Desperate. Willing to powerlevel and key them. There is also a general policy that player talent specs are up to the player and we do not force specs on our members. That said. That said, if a moonie druid applies they are given the pat "we are full ATM, please try again later" answer as we chuckle to ourselves. Is this right? Do moonkins have nothing to offer? That is not the point. I'm just saying this is how they are viewed by the limited population I have met.


Leader of the Pack:
Is that talent enough of a dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?
Absolutly. The down side is, one LotP is all a raid needs. It is seldom that there enough druids to keep up with the cure, combat res, regrowth demand that is expected from the class in raids that a player can just go feral full time.

Settle it? Not going to happen. Different guilds have different needs for what they expect thier druids to fill. The best I can offer is how my guild works. I believe this is close to what much of the horde on Icecrown expect.

Tanking:
Bear form vs Protecion spec warrior... is a bear a Main Tank?
For single groups, sure. Why not.
For Raids...yes. I main tank MC/AQ 20/ZG all the time. I am in fact the desired tank for Domo.

Is a bear an off tank or is a bear more like a fury warrior?
Off tank usually.
Depends on leadership. Bear does not do damage that a fury warrior does. (Cat does though) Bear is more of a tank
Can a bear hold aggro well enough in MC/BWL and beyond?
No. It's not that they can not do it, it's just that the DPS has to scale way down from what a warrior tank can hold.
Not true. Druids generate a ton more agro than a warrior. My prot warriors whine all the time about me stealing agro. If you have a feral druid with gear (+Agil/Stam and Armor) they can tank everything through AQ 40. Right now Naxx is a lot harder so most people do not use the feral druids for that purpose since the zone is so new.

Can a bear amount enough armor to compete with a shield, prot stance AND armor?
No.
Yes. Fully epic druid tanks versus equally equiped warriors take 5-10% more damage though without parry and block. In fact it is easier for a druid to gear up for tanking if you are just starting MC than a warrior. Once you get through BWL though a druid will start having a harder time finding gear.

DPS:
Cat vs Rogue... is a cat a rogue?
Sure.
No. A cat has innervate and Lotp and can help heal for a bit in emergencies.
Can a cat really put up comparible DPS to a rogue?
Comparible? Yes.
No exactly but pretty close.
Can a cat shed aggro well enough?
Not well enough to compete with a rogue in most cases.

In general, for either tanks or DPS (or most any role for that matter), the "pure" classes are more desirable over a hybred or part time class. Warriors are the main tanks. There are specific encounters where you want a bear tank but for typical creep kills, bears are off tanks for ads.

Not always true. There are bosses that druids just tank better (Poly morphs, knockbacks, teleports, Magic Damage with the high HP a feral druid can get.) Druids are very viable main tanks up until Naxx. It is hard to say what will happen from there. After the expansion everything will be mixed up as well. But normally you have enough warriors or rogues so you are asked to switch how you play based on the situation. Many guilds use a druid as one of the main tanks however.

Leader of the Pack:
Is that talent enough of a dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?
Absolutly. The down side is, one LotP is all a raid needs. It is seldom that there enough druids to keep up with the cure, combat res, regrowth demand that is expected from the class in raids that a player can just go feral full time.
If you have 5 druids in your 40 man raid that is more than enough to have 1 full time feral and 1 full time OOMkin. In fact, our druids get to be flexible while the priests and pallys heal.

Before I joined my raiding guild I was 14/32/5 I loved the damage for PvP. Just before I joined my raiding guild I respec'd to 0/30/21 for reduced healing touch cast time and nature's swiftness.

I know that I am primarliy needed for healing, though I get the chance to swap gear and OT or DPS from time to time too ( Sulfuron & Domo and then a number of mobs & bosses in ZG & AQ ).

Bear tanks ( assuming they spec'd for it ) will generate a lot of aggro. I am not fully "tank" spec'd and will often see myself climbing the threat meter and have to back off to not pull aggro.

Cat DPS can be pretty close to rogues, but with our current gear it's hard to be on par or surpass them.

Moonkin, I can't really say much about. We've had moonies in our guild and they often find themselves spec'ing back to resto much to the disappointment of the mages.

All druids can innervate.
All druids can combatrez.

Nuff said.

While my guild is only in BWL atm, I must say I disagree with a few of the posters in this thread. In my opinion the druid is not very suitable to shift roles in combat, with two exceptions (shifting between kitty dps and bear tanking works decently, as does shifting between nuking and healing).

For the record, I've been most specs you can imagine -- moonkin, full kitty dps, full bear trank, full resto (although not after swiftmend was introduced), and 30/21 feral/resto "hybrid build". All my specs have been PvE oriented, since I've never been a big PvP-er.

Tanking:
Bear form vs Protecion spec warrior... is a bear a Main Tank?
Is a bear an off tank or is a bear more like a fury warrior?
Can a bear hold aggro well enough in MC/BWL and beyond?
Can a bear amount enough armor to compete with a shield, prot stance AND armor?

Yes, a bear can Main Tank.

I'd pick a bear instead of a fury warrior any day, for any tanking job.
(Because of better aggro hold, and better damage reduction.)

I find my aggro hold is 5-15% better (depending on mob armour, buffs, et al) than the prot warriors in my guild (with the exception of the one with thunderfury, but that's not exactly equal gear. :) ).

I find my incoming damage is about 5-15% higher than the prot warriors in my guild, depending on the situation. I do, however, take less spiky damage (I get critted more, but a crit for me is about the size of a crush on the warriors), and have more hp. My healers say I need more healing, but they don't need to stress as much when healing me as they need with a warrior. They mainly use greater heal to keep me up (which frustrates me a bit, since I don't get that lovely inspiration buff as often as I would have if they used flash. :-P )

A bear tank can be nice in aggro sensitive fights since he generates more threat, or in fights with knockbacks (because of feral charge). A bear tank is also nice in fights with high spike damage (e.g. mortal strikes that can't crit -- Thekal in ZG, Broodlord in BWL, et al), since an MS hitting a warrior for ~7k can almost one-shot him, while a bear taking the same blow (around ~6k for a bear tank, but he'll also have 1-2k more health) will survive it with enough hp to spare to give the healers time to heal him.


DPS:
Cat vs Rogue... is a cat a rogue?
Can a cat really put up comparible DPS to a rogue?
Can a cat shed aggro well enough?


No, a cat is definitely not a rogue.

Not prior to 1.12. I, sadly, have not had the chance to do dps as kitty spec in raids after 1.12.

Pre-1.12, aggro was the main problem of kitty dps. In 1.12 we got a 29% innate threat reduction in cat. I do not know the situation now.

When DPSing in raids, I did more dps than most of our hunters, a few of our mages, and a couple of crappy rogues. I was nowhere near the best rogues, dps warriors or the best mage.

DPS Magic-style
OOMkin vs other magic users.... Is a oomkin a viable magic user in raids?
Is the dmg a moonkin inflict enough to warrant a raid spot?
Is the Moonkin 3% group buff a big enough dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?

Yes.

Yes.

Not on its own, but it adds to the benefit of a bringing a druid to nuke.

I did not stay moonkin for long so I've never raided with the spec, but we do have a moonkin on our raids. While the casters love him, I don't think the 3% crit aura warrants his nuking on its own. However, a properly geared moonkin (properly = cloth -- you can't get enough +dmg gear with leather only, it seems) "hits like a truck", to quote some pvp friends of mine. They won't do the same dps as a mage or SM/ruin lock, however.


Leader of the Pack:
Is that talent enough of a dmg boost to make a case for them in a raid?


Not on its own, no.

Generally, a druid with any spec will never match a good player of the class he's imitating. However, it does give you more strategic options:

- Any druid can change role between battles, no matter what spec. You come to a boss and find you need more healing? Just tell one of the offspecs to heal instead of dps/nuke. Need an extra tank? Tell your kitty druid to go bear. Etc. While offspec druids can heal well (they mainly lose staying power and instant heals when speccing away from resto), a resto druid can't tank or dps very well, even with good gear.
- All druids have got decurse, depoison, innervate and combat res, no matter what spec.
- Tanking druids can do decent kitty dps when their mob is dead.
- Kitty druids can offtank pretty well if you get adds. (A caster/owl druid can probably "hold" a mob until a proper tank gets hold of it, but they haven't got the aggro hold to actually tank it while it's being dpsed.)
- Moonkin druids can switch to healing mid-battle, with pretty good heals. (Druids with feral gear on will only have mana for a couple of heals.)