I'm considering a full feral spec for a while, but I'd like to hear what folks have to say about Mangle. I have a friend who has 41 points in Feral (big bear spec, she's one of our KZ tanks) but doesn't have Mangle. I asked her why not and she didn't have much opinion about it. So now I ask you... should I get Mangle? I don't really tank much, so I'm looking at a more cat-tuned spec. Whatever points are not in Feral will probably be in Resto.

If your KZ druid tank doesn't have Mangle...then I'm crazy.

Mangle is probably the best thing to happen for feral druids since Cat Form and Dire Bear form. Not only does it replace wimpy ol' Claw, but it also increases bleed damage and Shred damage. It hits pretty well too. For Bear tanking it has a lot of threat generated.

If you are serious about being feral, you MUST get mangle.

I just got mangle at lvl 61, as i went 11 resto early.
All i have to say is WOW :D
That ability is essential for a feral druid, it raises your dps
greatly and makes tanking a whole lot easyer.

my humble opinion is that you should either be full feral(with mangle) or not go past 11 points(feral charge for a pvp spec). Playing a "full" feral druid without mangle is like playing half a spec, totally gimped imnsho.

I have a friend who has 41 points in Feral (big bear spec, she's one of our KZ tanks) but doesn't have Mangle.
Your rogues must hate it when he tanks in Kara.

Thanks for the input, all. I'll take it under advisement as I ponder my new spec.

As for my tanky druid friend.. she really is a great tank. We don't have any problems with her at all, and I never would have known she didn't have Mangle if I hadn't looked her up on the armory. :D

I'm considering a full feral spec for a while, but I'd like to hear what folks have to say about Mangle. I have a friend who has 41 points in Feral (big bear spec, she's one of our KZ tanks) but doesn't have Mangle. I asked her why not and she didn't have much opinion about it. So now I ask you... should I get Mangle? I don't really tank much, so I'm looking at a more cat-tuned spec. Whatever points are not in Feral will probably be in Resto.

It IS possible to tank KZ without mangle , but not very wise.

But, keep in mind then thats where the tanking for that character ends without mangle.

Also tanking in KZ without mangle is very risky. As I said it's possible but you are basically making things MUCH harder then they need to be with doing so.

A druid that wants to tank and doesn't have mangle, it just makes their job that much harder. We have a nice aggro multiplier on mangle, and if you can get one into a mob, a maul and a lacerate or 2 before DPS unloads, chances are that mob isn't going anywhere.

Mangle is hawt stuff. Tanking ( especially multi-mobs ) is not an "easy" task, no need to make it more of a challenge than it has to be.

Thanks for the input, all. I'll take it under advisement as I ponder my new spec.

As for my tanky druid friend.. she really is a great tank. We don't have any problems with her at all, and I never would have known she didn't have Mangle if I hadn't looked her up on the armory. :D
Does your raid use a threat meter? If so, have they ever slowed down their dps when they notice aggro creeping up to the MT's? Not engaging immediately while they wait for the MT to build aggro? Rogues using feint, hunters FDing, mages going invisible. All these things can be happening without your awareness, and they probably do. Not having Mangle makes the likeliness of this much greater. Can you still kill that mob without it? Sure, but why make it harder for yourself unnecessarily. It's like not wearing a helm because you don't like the graphic. Could you tank without that helm? Of course, but why???

Well, to clarify... she's not our MT, she's our OT. So she's not usually tanking bosses, just various other things depending on what our cc looks like for the week.

We do not use a threat meter. We do wait for our tank(s) to get aggro before we engage, but unless a mob can't be taunted it's usually only a couple seconds. Sometimes folks pull aggro and they die, but I wouldn't say it happens with disconcerting freqency. (Except perhaps for our enhancement shaman who is an unrepentant aggromonkey and the master of her own destiny.)

Anyway... back to the topic at hand. What do folks think of this build: 0/44/17 (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?0000000000000000000005002321323221253 0124105503301000000000000)

Nice build, but not suited for tanking. Without Feral Instinct you will have a hard time keeping aggro.

Either take the three points of Natural Shapeshifter or the three points of Intensity and put them into Feral Instinct.

Edit: Lose Nurturing Instinct. While in feral gear the 200-300 additional +heal do not make that much difference and in healing gear you have no +str.
For a nice feral build that is suitable for PvP, tanking and damage see the one linked below in my sig.

Yes, it's worth it.

This is my feral build BTW: 0,49,12 (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?0000000000000000000005032321323201253 3125105501001000000000000)

Primal Tenacity is mostly a PvP talent so it can be dropped for more points in shapeshifter. It works for me in both PvP and PvE.. allthough I havent tanked more than heroics so far. :)

I guess Nurturing Instinct isn't really needed either, but I like lots of STR (=AP) and the hybrid angle of the druid. :)

I am not going for tankability with my build. I don't like to bear tank (I have a 70 warrior I much prefer to tank with) so while building my feral build I'm looking mostly for things that will help cat dps and PvP.

Thanks for the input so far.

Mangle will seriously improve you cat DPS. Both from bleed DoT's and shred.

Mangle will seriously improve you cat DPS. Both from bleed DoT's and shred.

I suspected it would. Though, amusingly enough, a big bonus of my 31/30/0 spec presented itself last night. In KZ, all the undead mobs are immune to bleeds. I sat around cursing this awhile, along with lamenting that our melee group didn't have room for me so I had no totems, no leader of the pack and no special damage bonus from the BM's pet.

Then realized I could throw on my caster gear, pop moonkin, and DPS them that way more effectively. Plus, I got to kill our mage a few times with moonkin aura. Then when we got to things that would bleed, so I swapped back to kitty. Happy hybrid. :)

Ehm.. ok. Whatever makes you tick. :)

Get mangle!

Get mangle!
Best... advice.... ever.

Well, I did it! Friday night before our KZ raid I respec'd full feral. Well, up to Mangle and a little farther anyway. :D

I ended up with 0/44/17 (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?0000000000000000000005032301323221053 0125105503301000000000000), picking up kitty and bear stuff because, well, yeah. I'm probably going to have to tank sometime. Might as well be prepared.

First impressions?

ZOMG.

<3 Mangle

I hung out in Eye a bit and totally ate faces. Most fun I've had in BGs in forever. KZ went well too, I did some off-tanking as well as kitty. Though all those unbleedable mobs made me a sad kitty.

On the whole though... wow, really enjoying the feral spec. We'll see how long it takes for me to go back to Resto/Balance though...hehe.

Personally if you are going to go full feral you require mangle. As a raiding druid (often MT'ing).

In cat form with mangle up I can top 850-900 sustained DPS. Not only does it increase your damage but it also increases the damage of your rogues. Mangle, shred, shred, (optional shred), rip, rinse repeat..

In tanking form, there is no better threat generator. Mangle, Lacerate, Lacerate, Lacerate, Mangle, Lacerate, Lacerate, swipe, swipe, rinse repeat. Even the best rogues wont pull from you.

I went 0/50/11 for pure raid viability. http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Hyjal&n=Miltaides

Hope this helps.

Your 0/44/17 build is almost identical to my tank/dps raid build. However instead of brutal impact's 1 sec on your 2 stuns (which you may like for pvp) I have those 2 points in feral swiftness (4% dodge is amazing....and I like the run speed as a bonus). Now....don't fret too much about bleed immune mobs in Karazhan....I was upset at first too. From Maiden of Virtue on...most of the bosses are bleedable (maiden, aran, illhoof, prince, and nightbane all are.....that means only attumen, moroes, curator, spite really aren't....i can't remember the opera bosses because I'm basically always offtanking that but I don't believe lacerate stacked on Julianne last night so I'd say they prolly don't bleed either).

The boss mobs are really the only ones you need to have bleedable.....I know my groups don't usually let any trash live long enough to make rip better than a 3500 crit FB. And if it does....like on attumen/moroes/spite....well you find yourself able to maintain high dps anyway just by powershifting. Mangle/shred/shred/FB then shift out/into cat to immediately have 40 energy so you can start using specials again despite the drain FB has on your energy. If you use energywatch you can even time it so you shift in right as energy ticks and you start with 60 energy and can immediately shred.

As far as that druid in your guild tanking karazhan without mangle......I hate to say it but they're so drastically reducing the dps of your raid....mangle is enormous threat generation...probably a few hundred threat per second.....that's a few hundred more dps every single person in your raid can do without pulling aggro. Also, when tanking you should really always have maul queued as well...that one person was talking about only using mangle and lacerate. Just to clear that up...maul should always be queued....always. In a rage cost to threat ratio, maul > mangle > lacerate....but when mobs are swinging for 1500+ you have nearly infinite rage so it's no biggy.