View Full Forums : Help with DPS role in a 5-man group ...


Ravnia
07-30-2007, 02:44 PM
I have been grinding Steam Vault a lot lately and of course I cant avoid having another feral druid in the run. If the other duid is tanking I find my self (at least I think I am) lacking of DPS.

Do you guys have recommendation like you have on the tank gear list? (which I have been following and almost have all the gear) Which attributes do I need to put in priority to build a good DPS gear?

Also do we as druids have a demand role as DPS in end-game content?

Thanks...

Abies
07-30-2007, 03:33 PM
Primary stats for Kitty-DPS are strength/AP and agility/crit.

I'd say go primarily for str/AP until 2600-2800 AP unbuffed. After that 1 agi is better than 1 str.
Of course you should always go for both, but if you have to choose take above consideration into account.

Here you find a nice list of DPS-Items:
http://www.gurgleblaster.net/emmerald/Cat_Sustained_DPS/Head.html

About our viability as DPS class end-game content: I am regularly one of the top damage dealers in Kara and Gruul. I haven't been to SSC, Mag or above.
Generally the real use of a feral is the ability to switch between tank and DPS. In Kara it is extremely useful to have a very able tank for trashmobs that can deal a lot of damage in boss fights too, or switch to bear and tank something for a short time in case the MT goes down towards the end of a bossfight.

Ziada
07-30-2007, 04:49 PM
Abies pretty much hit it on the head. I used that site he linked to build my kitty set, which I am pretty sure I logged out in last night if you want to look. Still a work in progress, as always. ;)

weaselking1973
07-30-2007, 04:56 PM
get the primal strike crafted stuff, does nice

as a tank primarly i try to get a spot as DPS so i can go into my "lazy" mode, and more less relax in groups..

unfortunatly thats not often, but i do carry 2 complete gear sets with me. one for DPS and one for tanking.

which makes druids really damn high cost to maintain

Ravnia
07-31-2007, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the info guys ... I did notice that most of the good gear are created and some are BoP ... Do I need to relearn my professions to equipped the better gear?

Avearis
07-31-2007, 11:05 AM
I'm running a lot of Coilfang too in pursuit of Earthwarden (got within 2k rep last night :grin: ), and picked up http://thottbot.com/i29265 in Heroic Underbog on the last boss. There was a TON of leather DPS gear in there (and some good tank gear too), but there was a good rogue with us and I lost most of the rolls. For that last drop he was quite a gentleman and didn't roll against me (rogues with Int?), so I am quite pleased.

To top it off I picked up almost 3k CE rep, so I'm less than one run away from Eathwarden now. Woot!

weaselking1973
07-31-2007, 11:52 AM
you dont have to respec for the gear.

the primal strike and clefthoof dont require leatherworking, they only require it to get the set bonus

Aral
07-31-2007, 02:53 PM
Although you are right about the clefthoof set being boe and not needing lw, primal intent is bop and needs 375 lw skill.

weaselking1973
07-31-2007, 03:44 PM
ack sorry forgot about that one...

<--- having blonde moments at work

Ravnia
07-31-2007, 04:49 PM
So would you guys recommend on relearning professions to equip the crafted gear? I'm currently Alchemy / Herbalism ...

weaselking1973
07-31-2007, 06:53 PM
same here, herbal, alch.. i use just the clefthoof. the primal strike i farmed and gave the parts to the Letherworking rogue in guild.

I have a mixture of DPS gear i use, i dont really put that much effort into top DPS gera due to the fact i only use it solo when farming or questing and always end up tanking...

so that much would be based on what roll you play in groups or solo. as for the professions. i wotn change. to addicted to... pots.... =P

Relevart
08-01-2007, 04:58 PM
That DPS list does not take into account your hit rating. Or rather it makes a baseline assumption about it being low. If this is not true, then you need to evaluate the gear differently. If you're hit rating is high enough, and your AP is still sitting around 2500-2800, you can easily start to shrug off some of the high AP gear for high agi gear. Just as with hit rating, there is a crit cap on white damage which i found to be the largest single contributor to my dps weighing in just under shred at ~45%. Make sure you're not wasting that! And always attack from the back. . . No block/parry from behind changes the attack table.

Why did I stop being feral? It's got good maths that make sense!!

Ravnia
11-28-2007, 10:00 AM
SO here is my druid a few months later after acquiring decent gear to dps I still find it hard to compete with other classes ... Is my gear up to par or could it be my approach?

tlbj6142
11-28-2007, 10:22 AM
Are you doing the correct spell rotation? It is my understanding that the best way to do group kitty DPS is...


Mangle
Shred until you get 4 combo points (5 if something crits)
Wait until you have ~70E. Rip, followed immediately by step 1 so the Rip bleeds get the Mangle buff.
I'm told there are times when a power-shift can be beneficial as well, but I don't remember the details of when to perform that action. Bite should be left out of PvE rotations unless the mob will die from it as the damage to energy ratios are awful.

Obviously, you should use FFF sometime between Shreds.

Abies
11-28-2007, 11:52 AM
Your gear is very much up to par. You could use more crit chance, but with your stats you should be in the upper half of damage meters. In a 5-man you should be first or second.

Well, that depends on the other members of your group. If you have a T6 equipped Warlock in your group that is skilled for PvE damage, you will always be behind him ^^.

Annikk
11-28-2007, 12:26 PM
I'm very surprised that nobody has mentioned this, but... when you have a bear druid tanking for you, save all your energy for shreds - don't use mangle. Let the bear druid keep mangle up for you. Shred is much more damage for less energy, so this is a surefire way to increase your damage output :>



-Annikk

Ravnia
11-28-2007, 12:39 PM
My usual spell rotation goes:
1. Ravage or Pounce depending on a mob that bleeds
2. Mangle
3. Shred or Claw depending or energy then until the 5th point
4. Ferocious Bite or Rip depending on a mob that bleeds
5. FFF
6. repeat


Most of the people I play with are guild members that are geared with T4/Kara gear ...

When I dps its usually a warrior or Pally tanking ...

Abies
11-28-2007, 12:50 PM
There you have it. Claw is really a useless ability once you have Mangle. Mangle costs the same in energy and does more damage in any and all situations.
Just use Shred. If you do not have the energy for it, wait another tick. Really.

You can FFF earlier. I usually do it on every global cooldown where I do not have enough energy for Shred or Mangle.

Also, for bleed-immune mobs, I'd suggest simply not using Ferocious Bite unless you have less than 42 energy. Using it with any more is a waste. If you already have 5 combo points and have 42 or more, just Shred again. Keep using Shred (or Mangle, if you need to reapply the debuff) until you have less than 42 energy left, then use Ferocious Bite. In my experience Shred simply scales better with AP.

Ravnia
11-28-2007, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the advice ...

Falloraan
11-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Take claw off your bar and never use it again. Ever.

Idol of Terror is pretty good for bear, but not as good for cat DPS. The shred idol will give you better sustained DPS.

Also, for bleed-immune mobs, I'd suggest simply not using Ferocious Bite unless you have less than 42 energy. Using it with any more is a waste. If you already have 5 combo points and have 42 or more, just Shred again. Keep using Shred (or Mangle, if you need to reapply the debuff) until you have less than 42 energy left, then use Ferocious Bite. In my experience Shred simply scales better with AP.Unless you crit your ferocious bite.

tlbj6142
11-28-2007, 04:07 PM
Unless you crit your ferocious bite.FB would be worth it just for the crit chance if it did not consume all remaining energy. The fact that it does, is the primary reason why it should be avoided except in very few scenarios.

Think of it like, Frenzied Regeneration. The times in which this bear skill can be safely used are very, very limited. Kitty's FB is the same way.

Ravnia
11-28-2007, 04:27 PM
Shred Idol = Everbloom Idol (http://thottbot.com/i29390) ?

Falloraan
11-28-2007, 05:45 PM
If you have 5 combo points a FB crit will do more damage than a shred crit regardless of your energy.


Shred Idol = Everbloom Idol (http://thottbot.com/i29390) ?Yes

Annikk
11-28-2007, 06:45 PM
I can see both sides of this debate.

I would agree that your choice of which move to use depends on how much energy you have. For example, if I had 100 energy and 5 combo points, I could reasonably expect to shred, shred, bite, without any delay waiting for energy. So just using FB straight away denies me 2 "free" shreds.

On the other hand if I had 35 energy and 5CP, i wouldn't have enough for a shred, so I'd be best just blowing it on FB.

So what if I have 42 energy? That's the amount of energy needed for 1 shred. (FB requires 35 energy)

It would take me another 2 ticks of energy to be able to afford a ferocious bite after shredding: The shred would use all my remaining 42 energy, and then I would get 1 tick for 20/100 energy, then 2nd tick for 40/100 energy - bite costs 35.

Now lets look at it the other way around. I bite on 42 energy - i'm reduced to zero. I have to wait one tick (20), 2 ticks (40), 3 ticks (60) to have enough for a Shred costing 42 energy.


So therefore if you have 42 energy, you will achieve both moves within 2 energy ticks instead of 3, if you Shred first, then bite.




I've been looking at the theory behind this question tonight, and it seems to me that (on paper at least) it's only more efficient to bite if you are at 35 or 36 energy. 37 energy is roughly the same efficiency, and with anything above 37 it's more efficient to shred, even if that means waiting for another energy tick.



-Annikk

tlbj6142
11-28-2007, 07:03 PM
I promise not to turn you into Theroycrafters Anonymous.

Annikk
11-29-2007, 05:13 AM
Bah :p


-Annikk

Abies
11-29-2007, 06:13 AM
I promise not to turn you into Theroycrafters Anonymous.

Owwww. But we are all nice people here. There even is cake!

Annikk
11-30-2007, 08:54 AM
Can anyone confirm my conclusions?

If it's true then I maybe need to adapt my playstyle in catform a bit..


-Annikk

Dilalamer
11-30-2007, 10:41 AM
I spend a lot of time in 25 man raids DPSing. They bring me along as an 'oh crap' tank/dps/healer. When we're short on warriors or the primary feral druid is out, I spend most of my time tanking, but generally, I'm in cat form.

I have noticed several times that I find it difficult to achieve top of the damage meter in fights in 25 man raids (SSC/the eye. I haven't done gruul/mags in a long time). On trash fights I normally do well, because cat form has a lot of front end damage when you unload a full energy bar (don't forget OOC and the two peice t4 bonus). On bosses, not so much. Feral druids are very challenged on many SSC/Eye fights:

Hydross: Need anyone who can tank, especially swipe tank, controlling adds, so I'm always bear form.

Lurker: Rare fight where druids can usually shine in cat form.

Leotheras: His whirlwind frequently keeps druids running in and out of range and not doing damage. Our other druid is usually the tank during demon phase (FR and huge health ftw).

Tidewalker: Again, druids and warriors are usually all picking up adds along with pallies (gotta pull them off the pallies before the pallies die, since most of our pallies just do it in their healing gear, lol).

Fathomlord: Main druid is usually tanking. In many raid groups, the druid(s) will be tanks since raid groups try to not bring excess tanks and this fight needs them all. If you *do* get to DPS, you can do pretty well for the first half until the ice blocks start slowing you down (which invariably seem to give ranged the DPS advantage).

Vashj: Killing adds and following vashj as she gets kited around in phase 3 can be a bit of a pain for druids in cat form because our hit box is tiny and keeping in range takes practice. It's generally not bad though.

Void Reaver: He's bleed immune and when he stomps, you need to back out unless you brought a lot of extra healing, both of which limits your damage potential.

Alar: The stupid bird is up in the air for the first half of the fight. If you're not tanking alar or the adds, your damage potential is still poop because you can't kill the adds in phase one and everyone is usually tanking/catching adds in phase 2.

Solarian: Not a bad fight for druids, but because most raids i know of have druids helping catch/control the adds during the aid phases, we miss out on damage time.

Kael'thas: yeah, um, no. Don't expect to be damage king. Too many reasons to list.

But, what do druids bring to a raid, if not mad dps? We can tank, we can battle res, we can spot heal, we've got innervate, etc. I used to worry about my spot being lost to a true DPS when we got an extra warrior, but as one raid leader pointed out:

"you're consistently near the top 5 for dps on all fights, and if one of the top 5 dies because of pulling agro, random AoE, bad luck, lag, etc, YOU bring him back and his additional damage after res could theoretically be attributed to you."

Who brings the heat? Druids.

Annikk
11-30-2007, 01:33 PM
But, what do druids bring to a raid, if not mad dps? We can tank, we can battle res, we can spot heal, we've got innervate, etc. I used to worry about my spot being lost to a true DPS when we got an extra warrior

A Druid's job is quite simply to SAVE THE DAY.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9656/whateverfluffycandojl2.jpg



-Annikk

Abies
12-02-2007, 06:24 PM
@Dilalamer: You hit it spot on.

@Annikk: To answer your question from a few posts above: I fully agree with your conclusions. I have been doing that for some time now.

Falloraan
12-03-2007, 01:17 PM
I have noticed several times that I find it difficult to achieve top of the damage meter in fights in 25 man raids (SSC/the eye. I haven't done gruul/mags in a long time). On trash fights I normally do well, because cat form has a lot of front end damage when you unload a full energy bar (don't forget OOC and the two peice t4 bonus). On bosses, not so much. Feral druids are very challenged on many SSC/Eye fights:

....

But, what do druids bring to a raid, if not mad dps? We can tank, we can battle res, we can spot heal, we've got innervate, etc. I used to worry about my spot being lost to a true DPS when we got an extra warrior, but as one raid leader pointed out:

"you're consistently near the top 5 for dps on all fights, and if one of the top 5 dies because of pulling agro, random AoE, bad luck, lag, etc, YOU bring him back and his additional damage after res could theoretically be attributed to you."

Who brings the heat? Druids.
I used to feel this way when I was in Kara/Gruul's/SSC/The Eye. But once your guild starts getting into Mt. Hyjal and Black Temple, you won't be near the top 5, you'll steadily fall back further and further and you'll be struggling to be top 10, with no sign of the decline leveling off. Then once your guild gets closer to Illidan, and the fights become really challenging, you'll find that a feral druid doing 1/2 to 1/3 of the DPS of top classes is a liability, despite your other abilities.

Avearis
12-03-2007, 05:29 PM
I used to feel this way when I was in Kara/Gruul's/SSC/The Eye. But once your guild starts getting into Mt. Hyjal and Black Temple, you won't be near the top 5, you'll steadily fall back further and further and you'll be struggling to be top 10, with no sign of the decline leveling off. Then once your guild gets closer to Illidan, and the fights become really challenging, you'll find that a feral druid doing 1/2 to 1/3 of the DPS of top classes is a liability, despite your other abilities.

Is this no better since 2.3? I was (naively) hoping it was.

Falloraan
12-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Is this no better since 2.3? I was (naively) hoping it was.
Minor improvement. Certainly not significant enough to stem the tide, let alone make ground on it.