View Full Forums : Kitty DPS: When to mangle?


tlbj6142
10-03-2007, 01:37 PM
Once I get Mangle, how do I fit it into my solo PvE rotation?

Pounce
Mangle
Shred
FFF (while waiting for energy)
Rake
...
Or

Pounce
Shred
Shred
FFF (while waiting for energy)
Mangle
...
Also is the Mangle bleed buff retroactive? Does it buff bleed effects if used after Pounce/Rip, rather than before?

If I can't Pounce a mob, what should my attack sequence be?

Kyane
10-03-2007, 03:01 PM
You want mangle in there first for the de-buff, so your first cycle is better.

You may not have the energy for shred @ #3 there, being that it's 60 energy ( non-talented ) after 50 from pounce and 45 from mangle.

Talented - mangle drops to 40 & shred drop to 48, but that's still: 90 from a pounce + mangle, and with only 1 tick of energy regen you're only around 30 energy.

tlbj6142
10-03-2007, 03:08 PM
If I can't get a Shred off, then what's the point of using Mangle? Bleed buff on Rake? Or is it mainly an instance PvE skill where Mangle can be followed by any number of Shred since the mob should be facing the tank?

In the case where I don't get to pounce (2nd mob of a 2 mob pull or when you need to pull with FFF, etc.) do I even bother with Mangle? Right now I start with Rip, Claw, FFF in this scenario.

tlbj6142
10-03-2007, 03:26 PM
I've also read that Mangle "replaces Claw". Today I use Claw as my 5th attack (if needed) in a Pounce'able encounter and 3rd-5th in a non-pounce'able encounter. So, the "replaces Claw" comment doesn't make all that much sense to me.

Abies
10-03-2007, 04:18 PM
1. Mangle replaces Claw: This is because is does more damage than Claw in any situation, and costs the same energy-wise. Once you have Mangle there is no need for Claw anymore.

2. I do not use Rake anymore. Even with Mangle debuff on the target it does not do enough damage compared to its energy cost.

3. All ticks of a bleed-debuff that happen while mangle is on the target get the bonus. If you bleed first and Mangle later the bonus counts for the ticks after Mangle is on the mob.

4. Shred drops to 42 when talented, not 48. They changed that with 2.0 or 2.1


My solo-cycle:

1. Pounce
2. Mangle
3. Shred
4. Shred (when OOC procs somewhere in this sequence before)

The last Shred does not always work, but often. I also use an energy-tick addon to time my pounce exactly. That way the moment after Pounce uses its 50 energy the next energy tick comes and I am at 70 again. Then Mangle which brings me down to 30, next tick comes 0.5 - 1 sec after that. Then Shred (now I am down to 8 energy). If no OOC proc is in that sequence I use FF at that point, otherwise I use Shred again.

After that I use Mangle to finish the mob, in combination with a finisher.

tlbj6142
10-03-2007, 04:36 PM
I also use an energy-tick addon to time my pounce exactly. That way the moment after Pounce uses its 50 energy the next energy tick comes and I am at 70 again.Thanks for all of the information. That helps a lot.

BTW, hich energy bar/tick addon do you use?

Trixtaa
10-03-2007, 08:06 PM
You can get Pounce >> Mangle/Shred >> Shred off if you time your opener right (getting a mod helps .. i think ones called Energy Tick)

Abies
10-04-2007, 04:34 AM
I use EnergyWatch_v2.
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/5464/

DrękLord
10-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Also, the latest version of Xperl also shows a small energy tick timer in your main profile bar (also shows an mp5 tick in caster). Not sure how big EnergyWatch is, but it's probably more noticeable, so if you don't use Xperl, I'd go with that.

tlbj6142
10-04-2007, 10:47 AM
My solo-cycle:

1. Pounce
2. Mangle
3. Shred
4. Shred (when OOC procs somewhere in this sequence before)

I also use an energy-tick addon to time my pounce exactly.I thought about this a bit more. I have no problems getting 2 Shreds off after a pounce now (with Brutal Impact and Shredding Attacks), so I see no reason why I can't get a Mangle>Shred combo off given that Mangle is "cheaper" than Shred.

So, I don't see the need for an energy bar mob to help "time my pounce". I guess if I didn't have Brutal Impact, I might need it. Though if I timed my pounce, I could get Shred off sooner?!?!

Abies
10-04-2007, 02:34 PM
Mangle->Shred is no problem at all. If you want to get Mangle->Shred->Shred off it helps to time it so that you can use every global cooldown.

tlbj6142
10-04-2007, 03:00 PM
If you want to get Mangle->Shred->Shred off it helps to time it so that you can use every global cooldown.How is that even possible without an OOC proc? Pounce (50), Mangle (40), Shred (42), Shred (42) for a total of 172 Energy. Let's assume you start with 120 Energy (a "perfect" pounce), you'll only get 2 more ticks before the mob wakes-up and spins around. That totals 160 energy.

What am I missing?

Abies
10-04-2007, 04:09 PM
Read my sequence again. It is all there. Pounce->Mangle->Shred and another Shred only if OOC procs.

And the timing is there to ensure you have the energy every time the global cooldown is up.

tlbj6142
10-04-2007, 04:27 PM
And the timing is there to ensure you have the energy every time the global cooldown is up.Got it. If I do not time it correctly, and OOC procs, the 2nd Shred would happen outside of the Pounce stun effect. Which, of course, means the mob would have turned around.

Abies
10-05-2007, 03:51 AM
Exactly

tlbj6142
10-05-2007, 09:26 AM
Poorly Timed Pounce Timings

Offset Action Total Energy
=================================================
0.00 Energy Tick 100
1.50 Poorly timed Pounce 50
2.00 Energy Tick 70
2.50 Mangle 30
3.50 Nothing (no energy) 30
4.00 Energy Tick 50
4.50 Shred 8
5.50 Stun Over No time for an extra Shred if OoC procs.


Correctly Timed Pounce Timings

Offset Action Total Energy
=================================================
0.00 Correctly timed Pounce 50
0.10 Energy Tick 70
1.00 Mangle 30
2.10 Energy Tick 50
2.10 Shred1 8
3.10 Shred2 8 If OoC procs on Pounce, Mangle or Shred
4.00 Stun Over 8
4.10 Energy Tick 28


What I didn't realize until I read it on WoWWiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown), is that in cat form the GCD is only 1 sec. In other forms (and for most other classes), the GCD is 1.5 sec. This wouldn't be possible if our GCD was 1.5 s.

tlbj6142
10-09-2007, 12:51 PM
I use EnergyWatch_v2.
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/5464/I finally got around to d/l'ing this over the weekend. This addon rocks. Not only does it show energy tick timings, but if you use the "/ew text C: &c E: &e" command you get to see your combo points and current energy level on the same bar. If it would show the current targeted mob's health (do i bite, rip or maim?) it would be perfect.

Abies
10-09-2007, 05:39 PM
I use Perl Classic Unit Frames for that. A very nice addon for displaying group members, your own portrait, your target, your focus and it also has a nice thing that shows health, mana and CP on you target.
Also it is written for performance and small memory footprint, which is always nice.

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/4720/

To see how it looks here is a (very old) screenshot of my interface: http://wow.sablatnig.net/WoWScrnShot_052007_163039.jpg

goa
10-10-2007, 07:49 PM
What I didn't realize until I read it on WoWWiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown), is that in cat form the GCD is only 1 sec. In other forms (and for most other classes), the GCD is 1.5 sec. This wouldn't be possible if our GCD was 1.5 s.

Eh what? GC is always 1 sec. It affects all classes, all players and all... well.. all!

The global cooldown isn't 1.5.. wowwiki is drunk obviously.

Edit: The GC of changing weapon in combat is 1,5 sec though if thats what you mean (1 sec for rogues).

tlbj6142
10-10-2007, 11:41 PM
Eh what? GC is always 1 sec. It affects all classes, all players and all... well.. all!Nope. GC is 1.5 seconds for almost every class, but rogues and kitty druids. I know on my hunter it is 1.5. If it were just 1s, I could pull off some better shot rotations.

goa
10-11-2007, 12:45 AM
Nope. GC is 1.5 seconds for almost every class, but rogues and kitty druids. I know on my hunter it is 1.5. If it were just 1s, I could pull off some better shot rotations.

I gotta check that.. :P

Abies
10-11-2007, 05:26 AM
Yeah, it is 1.5 sec.

For example you can chain cast Wrath (1.5 sec cast), but when Nature's Grace proccs and it is only 1 sec then you have to wait half a second before casting again.

Annikk
10-17-2007, 10:31 AM
The global cooldown (hereafter referred to as the GCD) is 1.5 seconds for all classes except Rogues and Druids in cat form which have a 1.0 second GCD.

From Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.2 (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12855-working_theories_theorycrafting_2_1_a/)


-Annikk

Magellan19
10-18-2007, 12:00 PM
Not only does it show energy tick timings, but if you use the "/ew text C: &c E: &e" command you get to see your combo points.

Can you explain Combo points?

Abies
10-18-2007, 12:25 PM
- While in Cat Form, several of your special attacks grant you a so called "combo point". Mangle, Shred, Rake, Claw, Pounce and Ravage are examples of those.

- With the talent "Primal Fury" you will get 2 combo points instead of one if your attack is a critical hit

- You can only build up combo points on one enemy at a time. If you hit another target with an attack that grants combo points the ones you collected on your previous target expire.

- Some abilities use combo points. These are usually called "finishers". The more combo points you have, the more damage they will do (usually). Examples for finishers are: Maim, Rip and Ferocious Bite.



Rogues and Druids in Cat Form use combo points.

Some information form WoWWiki: Combo points (http://www.wowwiki.com/Combo_points)

Magellan19
10-18-2007, 01:35 PM
Some abilities use combo points. These are usually called "finishers". The more combo points you have, the more damage they will do (usually). Examples for finishers are: Maim, Rip and Ferocious Bite.

OK, I thought so. My fave finisher is Ferocious Bite.

I was DPS'ing Blood Furnace one night (PuG). We were doing a great job, in fact, when this amazingly obnoxious and bossy Shaman hollered at me:

"Druid! What are you using as your finisher?"
"Ferocious Bite."
"NO! Use Maim!"

Uhmmm, okee dokey. So, I started using Maim, but honestly, I didn't see any improvement. We were already kicking butt.

Why'd he flinch on me? What's the difference?

Annikk
10-18-2007, 01:41 PM
Either his remarks are out of context or - much more likely - he was a total n00b who knows nothing about durids ;) Magellan, the chances are high that you already know far more about the druid class than 90% of WoW players. I know you go to a lot of effort to present yourself as being very green, but in reality I doubt you are really that clueless.. :>

The only advantage maim has in the context of an instance is that it can be used to interrupt a mob when it's casting a spell. For damage, ferocious bite is better.

For killing a boss, rip works out as more reliable dps in most cases, provided you can keep the Mangle debuff up on your target for the duration.


-Annikk

Kauroth
10-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Here's how I utilize a Drood's Finishing Moves

Ferocious Bite:
Only if the mob is 10% or lower (Solo)
Only if I have a Rip already applied and we need a DPS boost (Group)

Rip:
If I get 4 Combo Points before the mob is at 30% (Solo)
As soon as I get 5 Combo Points (Group)

Maim:
If I need to interrupt a mob healing themselves or if I need a heal. (Solo)
Only to interrupt a spell (Group)

Rip is always my finishing move of choice. However, FB is sometimes very nice if you're looking for quick and dirty DPS.

Maim is barely used in a group setting because if you're putting combo points on a mob, the Maim will be broken within a second by the rest of the party hitting the mob.

Kromas
10-20-2007, 10:10 PM
Not only that but maim hardly ever works in dungeon bosses.
I prefer Rip to FB in most boss fights due to Boss events that can deter me from dpsing for some time. (Runing away from prince after an enfeeble etc.) In most other cases (Trash) I prefer to FB for "quick and dirty dps" :P

Kromas
10-20-2007, 10:10 PM
Double post.

tlbj6142
10-21-2007, 06:23 PM
Do most folks wait until 5 combo points to use their finishing move? For bleedable mobs I typically use Rip at 4 combo points unless the mob is well above 50% health.

For non-bleedable mobs (elementals, undead(?), mechanicals), I use FB at 5 combo points. If they have 20-30% health left, I'll let a bit more energy build up before I use FB.

tlbj6142
10-21-2007, 07:04 PM
For solo PvE is mangle + shred better than shred x 2 until I get OoC? Looking at the descriptions it might make more sense to continue with Pounce->Shred->Shred combo until I get OoC. Or is Mangle's bleed "buff" and the "plus 158.4" greater than an additional Shred?

Annikk
10-22-2007, 08:59 PM
If you're soloing and you pounce, technically it's more efficient to do 2 shreds, but I much prefer to do a mangle and a shred, just because it's more satisfying if my shred crits are huge. :>


-Annikk

tlbj6142
10-22-2007, 10:33 PM
If you're soloing and you pounce, technically it's more efficient to do 2 shredsThat's what I thought. So, for leveling it is almost worthless, as Shred > Mangle. Even with an OoC proc as I could get in 3 Shreds. Seems like the primary benefit of Mangle is in bear form, not cat form.

It does make a cool sound. 2nd only to the Hunter's Kill Command as my favorite sound effect in the game.

Avearis
10-23-2007, 02:48 AM
Mangle is far from worthless in cat form. Most mobs survive long enough to turn and face you, so Mangle is your best bet then.

Also, in a group when you have a tank keeping the mob from facing you, Mangle's enhancement of bleed effects is worthwhile, i.e. Mangle-Shred-Shred-Shred-Rip.

Aside from soloing, you should keep Mangle up at all times. Even soloing a good case can be made for it. It's your 41 point talent; use it.

Annikk
10-23-2007, 04:40 AM
A far more efficient use of your energy is to not stealth at all, and just run up to mobs and mangle them.

With a "perfect" pounce you could get 2 shreds. But 3 mangles will do more dmg than 1 pounce and 2 shreds. When soloing just run towards mobs and pull them to you with faerie fire and mangle them. This is the fastest way to farm.

The only time you need to use pounce is if you definitely need to stun the mob for some reason, eg to avoid getting a debuff, or to stop it casting a spell, etc. Typically the mobs one chooses to farm tend not to be particularly scary, so pounce is a bit of a waste of energy imo.

The only time you should ravage is if extreme burst damage is required, as ravage is not very energy efficient - it's just a single massive hit, from stealth. It's good to use if it will 1shot something (or someone), or if a friend is going to stun a mob for you. In arenas another feral druid I know pounces and mangles our target, and i ravage and shred. This means we get the benefit of the stun and the mangle, whilst allowing me to maximise my (not inconsiderable) burst damage.


-Annikk

tlbj6142
10-23-2007, 09:23 AM
Mangle is far from worthless in cat form.I was mostly concerned about solo PvE. Earlier in this thread we talked about "when" to mangle. And ended up with Pounce->Mangle->Shred, but that makes no sense. It seems the answer is anytime you may have used claw before.

I understand it had a purpose in group PvE.

The comments above about not using pounce at all and strictly using Mangle seem interesting. I need to think about that approach.

tlbj6142
10-23-2007, 04:09 PM
A far more efficient use of your energy is to not stealth at all, and just run up to mobs and mangle them.

With a "perfect" pounce you could get 2 shreds. But 3 mangles will do more dmg than 1 pounce and 2 shreds. When soloing just run towards mobs and pull them to you with faerie fire and mangle them. This is the fastest way to farm.Maybe my math is wrong... it is!!! Old bad math removed so I can sleep at night.

Annikk
10-23-2007, 08:00 PM
It's better because you don't spend half the time waiting for stealth, waiting for energy, walking slowly in stealth over to the next mob, etc etc.

It takes time to restealth and move to the next mob, wait for the energy, and then start dpsing. Feral druids move fast outdoors - part of the way you can reduce your farming downtime is to reduce the time you spend travelling between mobs. I'd say I could kill 2 mobs in the time it would take me to kill 1 if I was restealthing each time.


-Annikk

tlbj6142
10-23-2007, 11:59 PM
It's better because you don't spend half the time waiting for stealth, waiting for energy, walking slowly in stealth over to the next mob, etc etc.That I can believe. I just ran a few limited tests and the Mangle*X approach isn't all that bad. Maybe I'll save the pounce method for range types (hunters, casters, rock throwing giants, etc). Besides, I love pulling with FFF as it appeals to my inner hunter.:biggrin:

tlbj6142
10-25-2007, 09:38 AM
Last night I used the FFF->Mangle-Mash method on non-casting mobs and it is significantly faster than the Prowl->Pounce->Shred->Shred method. I also noticed that the damage is higher. There must be something I'm missing in my above message where I state damage is greater with the PSS method. I think it has something to do with the DOT Shred uses. It is not in the abilities' description so I'm not sure how much initial damage Shred does and how much it does in its DOT phase.

Thanks, for the good tip. I just might get a bit of enjoyment out of leveling my Druid. Not I need to determine if I should drop LW for something else.

DrękLord
10-25-2007, 10:10 AM
Did you ever use FFF with the PSS method? If not, the armor reduction might've helped enough to push the Mangle damage past the PSS damage.

tlbj6142
10-25-2007, 10:24 AM
Did you ever use FFF with the PSS method? If not, the armor reduction might've helped enough to push the Mangle damage past the PSS damage.Sure, but not until after the 2nd Shred. I thought that maybe the issue, but I just don't see the little bit of armor reduction making all that much of a difference. I think the reduced damage with PSS has something to do with Shred's DOT. Any one know how that works? I assume there is some initial damage followed by a DOT, but skill's description doesn't even mention the DOT, but you can see it ticking down on the mob's debuff bar. So, I think when I hit the 2nd Shred, I lose the DOT effect from the first Shred. This results in a significant loss in total damage?!?!

DrękLord
10-25-2007, 11:09 AM
Wait a minute...Shred has a DoT? I have never seen Shred with a DoT.

Although, I do know that patch 2.2 changed Pounce's graphics a bit. They have it now so the little Panther icon shows the stun, and it also has Shred's icon to show the DoT of Pounce.

Is that what you're looking at?

goa
10-25-2007, 12:23 PM
As feral you should always have mangle upp as it's greatly increases the rupture finisher damage for the rogues (if the boss is not immune to bleed that is). :)

tlbj6142
10-25-2007, 12:28 PM
Is that what you're looking at?Maybe. So, if there isn't a DoT on Shred, why the heck can I do more damage with FFF->Mangle*4 than PSS? I'll capture my combat logs tonight and do a bit more analysis.

Annikk
10-26-2007, 04:41 AM
Shred does not have a damage over time component. Shred is direct damage, a "backstab" move that requires you to be behind your target. The damage of Shred is increased by 30% if your target has the Mangle debuff.

You are most likely getting confused with Pounce. Pounce is the cat version of Cheap Shot - it is useable only from stealth, stuns the target, and applies a damage over time bleed.


The reason your damage seems higher is because you aren't wasting 50 energy on pounce at the start of each fight on a stun you don't really require and a dot bleed that is unlikely to run its full duration. Instead that energy is being spent on an extra mangle.

To clarify, when in a group with a tank, you do much better damage by mangling once and then shredding.


-Annikk

tlbj6142
10-26-2007, 09:54 AM
I figured out my "Shred has a DoT" issue. After you pounce you'll see 2 debuffs on the mob. The stun cooldown and the pounce bleed. I had assumed one of those was from the Shred. That said, there is still something wrong with the damage I'm seeing from Shred vs. Mangle.

Last night I gathered my combat logs for ~30 mins of play. During that time I tried to use both PSS and FMMM approaches. In every case the damage from Mangle was greater than that from Shred. My (non-crit) mangles would hit for ~240, whereas my Shreds would hit for ~215. That's almost a 20% increase in damage from Mangle over Shred. That just doesn't make any sense. A couple of times I even tried Pounce->FFF->Shred to see if FFF was the issue. The resulting Shred hits were only slightly higher, ~220.

Any one have any ideas why this is the case? Looking at the tooltips, Shred should always do more damage than Mangle. Does Mangle ignore armor?

Annikk
10-26-2007, 10:15 AM
Yes, the debuff associated with Pounce was changed to 2 seperate debuffs in a recent patch - the stun component's debuff looks like the Pounce icon, and the bleed component's debuff looks like the Shred icon (which is pretty confusing, hopefully the icon will be changed in an upcoming patch).

Mangle does not ignore armour.

Faerie Fire will have the most noticeable effect on targets that already have quite low armour, such as clothies.

Judging by the damage your abilities are doing at the moment, the most likely reason for mangle doing greater damage than shred is that you are close to getting the next rank of shred, but dont quite have it yet, whereas you have recently learned a new rank of Mangle.

Shred is more gear-dependent than Mangle. My shred crits close to double what my mangle crits for because I am wearing a lot of purple gear. When I was in greens and blues the difference between the moves was much smaller.


Can you confirm what level you are at the moment, and what ranks of Mangle and Shred you are currently using?

Also, do you have the Savage Fury talent? (increases mangle damage by 10%/20%)


-Annikk

tlbj6142
10-26-2007, 11:24 AM
I have Mangle 1 and Shred 4 and 2/2 Savage Fury. I also realized that I totally Fubar'd my math above.

PSS (with my ranks and assuming 100 "base" damage) should do 330 + 369 + 369 == 1068 (no 1806 I listed above). Whereas FMMM should do 3*X. Where X is either (1.92*100) + 158.4 == 350.4 or ((1.6*100)+ 158.4)*1.2 = 382.1. Which means FMMM would do either 1051 or 1146.

Assuming X is 382 rather than 350 (my combat logs seem to support that assumption), it looks like with Savage Fury and my current ranks of Mangle and Shred, Mangle does more damage on paper than Shred by ~20%. Cost less energy, does more damage, speeds up leveling. Why would I ever use PSS ever again (while leveling)?

Edit: What an idiot! Pretend you didn't see the old post.

tlbj6142
10-26-2007, 12:20 PM
Bump. Major edit to the above post. I must have been asleep when I wrote it.

Annikk
10-26-2007, 01:21 PM
heh, your maths is impressive although a bit amusing.. Since rolling durid I have mostly abandoned theorycrafting and instead rely on instinct.

Shred will become the bigger damage move as you level up more, and especially once you are 70 as Shred scales much better with gear than Mangle does.


-Annikk

tlbj6142
10-26-2007, 01:22 PM
Shred is more gear-dependent than Mangle.After thinking about this even more and doing a bit more math, I think this is the real issue. Until my "base" damage (not sure what voodoo Blizzard uses to compute that) has increased significantly, Mangle will always do more damage than Shred.

Ex. With max ranks in Mangle, Shred, 2/2 Savage Fury and a base damage of 400. Shred does 1305 whereas Mangle does 1084. But at my current level of base damage, the difference favors Mangle.

tlbj6142
10-26-2007, 01:37 PM
Since rolling durid I have mostly abandoned theorycrafting and instead rely on instinct.It is my inner hunter. Druids seem to have failed at math, whereas hunters live and die by it. I think this is mostly due to the fact that we typically either tank or heal. In which the measure of "success" is "did we survive". You just don't see Druid tanks trying to figure out how to maximize threat or tree forms trying to maximize healing. It just doesn't have to be done. The lack of math on this site (and most Druid FAQs, etc.) was a real concern of mine when I first starting looking at playing a Druid. After playing one for some time, I can see why. It is mostly a non-issue. Sure their are a few Kitty PvE raiders, but no one expects them to have max DPS. They were probably brought along to OT and/or OH. The fact they do DPS when "not needed" is a plus. If a Druids only role was DPS, there would be quite a bit more math and theorycrafting on this site.

Hunters, however, are DPS machines and need to do everything to max their DPS. Maximizing DPS == math.:biggrin:

guice
10-26-2007, 02:05 PM
haha, same can be said for rogues. I think the math stuff, imo, is a bit extreme. I can't see myself getting that detailed in anything. Not that I wouldn't enjoy it, I just think some people get too religious with these numbers. It's good to be able to just sit back and relax.

or tree forms trying to maximize healing. It just doesn't have to be done.
Yeah, we heal more than any other class just by sneezing. ^_^

Seriously, no math there, and I always top healing meters.

Annikk
10-26-2007, 02:09 PM
I played a hunter pre-tbc all the way into the later stages of Nax (although no KT or sapphiron unfortunately). I was very much into my damage equations as well back then so I can appreciate what you're saying.

As [feral] druid part of your role (and particularly my role as raid leader) is to look at everything. CC this mob, kill the dps target. Heal that person, tank the loose zombie. Aware of everything, all at once. Become zen with the raid, as an organic, moving piece of machinery; an organic collection of individual cells each tuned to do a specific job, as red blood cells float through a map of arteries and veins.

Druids are white blood cells.


-Annikk

Falloraan
10-26-2007, 04:50 PM
I have Mangle 1 and Shred 4 and 2/2 Savage Fury. I also realized that I totally Fubar'd my math above.

PSS (with my ranks and assuming 100 "base" damage) should do 330 + 369 + 369 == 1068 (no 1806 I listed above). Whereas FMMM should do 3*X. Where X is either (1.92*100) + 158.4 == 350.4 or ((1.6*100)+ 158.4)*1.2 = 382.1. Which means FMMM would do either 1051 or 1146.

Assuming X is 382 rather than 350 (my combat logs seem to support that assumption), it looks like with Savage Fury and my current ranks of Mangle and Shred, Mangle does more damage on paper than Shred by ~20%. Cost less energy, does more damage, speeds up leveling. Why would I ever use PSS ever again (while leveling)?

Edit: What an idiot! Pretend you didn't see the old post.
With OoC and two piece tier 4, it's not uncommon to get Pounce-Mangle-Shred-Shred off. So until you at least get high enough level to have mangle + OoC, it's probably not worth while to open with pounce unless there are additional considerations (multiple mobs, elite mob, etc).

Abies
10-26-2007, 07:56 PM
I use Pounce while farming because you have to heal yourself less often, which in turn lets you kill more mobs and reduces you repair costs. Farming is all about efficiency, and when you are killing stuff for several hours a week it adds up.

Also you have to take the Idol you are wearing into account with Everbloom Idol (http://thottbot.com/i29390) equipped the damage of Shred increases significantly.

But in the end it is a matter of taste and playstyle.

Kromas
10-27-2007, 02:47 AM
The best way to solo farm PvE mobs is to throw away mangle and throw away shred. Hell throw away catform. when im lazy and farming loads of relentless mobs I prefer bearform with cat gear pulling about 10 or so mobs and spamming swipe till they are dead. Not nearly as efficient as other methods but its a 1 button spam and prevents me from going insanly bored while farming by making neat little patterns with the bodies that drop. :P

DrękLord
10-27-2007, 10:04 AM
The best way to solo farm PvE mobs is to throw away mangle and throw away shred. Hell throw away catform. when im lazy and farming loads of relentless mobs I prefer bearform with cat gear pulling about 10 or so mobs and spamming swipe till they are dead. Not nearly as efficient as other methods but its a 1 button spam and prevents me from going insanly bored while farming by making neat little patterns with the bodies that drop. :P

Of course, that ends up with higher gear repair costs. :P

Kromas
10-29-2007, 09:13 PM
Four alts doing dailies = Loads of gold 2 throw around :P

Annikk
10-30-2007, 02:46 AM
Repair costs from mobs hitting you is negligble compared with the extra money you make from doing it even slightly faster.
Someone mentioned the everbloom idol. Whilst that is a truly awesome idol for dps when you're in a group with a tank, I think that the Mangle idol is better for farming than any other trinket available in game.

(The mangle trinket is a quest reward from the druids in the west of Hellfire Peninsula)


-Annikk

Avearis
10-30-2007, 03:27 PM
Whilst that is a truly awesome idol for dps when you're in a group with a tank, I think that the Mangle idol is better for farming than any other trinket available in game.

(The mangle trinket is a quest reward from the druids in the west of Hellfire Peninsula)
-Annikk

Name please. I can't find it.

tlbj6142
10-30-2007, 03:30 PM
Here's a Mangle Idol...http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28064

Annikk
10-30-2007, 07:49 PM
Idol of the Wild is the name, sorry.


-Annikk