View Full Forums : HotW change in 2.3, kitty nerf?


tlbj6142
11-06-2007, 11:00 AM
Heart of the Wild: This talent no longer provides 4/8/12/16/20% bonus Strength in Cat Form. Instead it provides 2/4/6/8/10% bonus attack powerIs this a nerf? It certainly seems like it. Today STR == 2.5 AP (or maybe 2.4). After this change, it would seem as though we'd get less from +str.

Abies
11-06-2007, 11:34 AM
Yeah it reduces AP from 1 str to 2.2, but the fact that it now increases the feral AP on your weapon by 10% makes that up.

Also they increased the feral AP on most weapons by around 30%.

You should end up with more AP.

Kyane
11-06-2007, 11:36 AM
Due to itemization, items with AP were scaling more than items with STR. Finding lots of leather with +STR is a futile journey. I think this change is done with the intent that we will scale better with end game items, and will start rolling on more rogue gear than not.

Also, items with +feral attack power are getting a boost to compensate some as well.

Edit: And I see I was beat to the punch by Abies.

Annikk
11-06-2007, 11:40 AM
It's an interesting subject, I wonder if there will be a correlating change to the Nurturing Instincts talent..
If they decide to leave it the way it is, it will increasingly become the preserve of hybrid druids only..

I'd say on the whole it's a buff; but you have to know how to take advantage of the new dynamic to reap the most benefit.


-Annikk

Ravnia
11-06-2007, 11:48 AM
So does this mean that going after +str items is not as important?

Annikk
11-06-2007, 11:57 AM
In the most basic layman's terms, yes. It helps to have a basic grasp of the maths behind it though.

1 point of strength gives cat druids 2 attack power.

Previously, the Heart of the Wild talent gave 20% extra strength in cat form, so that effectively means a cat druid with 5/5 Heart of the Wild would get 2.4 attack power from 1 point of strength.

In light of the change, Heart of the Wild now gives 20% extra Attack Power, NOT strength. So 1 point of strength is 2 attack power. However an item that reads "Equip: Increases attack power by 2" would be affected by the new Heart of the Wild, meaning you would actually get a benefit of 2.4 attack power in cat form.


To summarise:

Pre-patch:
1 str = 2.4 AP
1 AP = 1AP

Post-patch:
1 str = 2 AP
1 AP = 1.2 AP


Conclusion

Mix and match strength and attack power to get the most output AP.
Previously 20 strength was better than 40 attack power. Now it's the other way around.


Final note:
Don't forget to factor in Kings and the Nurturing Instinct talent when deciding what gear/stats to go for.


-Annikk

DrękLord
11-06-2007, 12:08 PM
In light of the change, Heart of the Wild now gives 20% extra Attack Power
Only 10%, from what the patch note says.

It's a 2/4/6/8/10% upgrade instead of a 4/8/12/16/20% upgrade.

Abies
11-06-2007, 12:09 PM
Last time I checked, they changed it to 10% AP bonus, not 20%.
So
pre-patch
1 str = 2.4 AP
1 AP = 1 AP

post-patch
1 str = 2.2 AP
1 AP = 1.1 AP

Veriden
11-06-2007, 10:58 PM
In essence, it's a major buff to DPS. Agility was already the better stats than strength; now it's even better. This also allows us to use rogue gear with less drawbacks, as there's little feral gear in the higher end... But this also means Nuturing Instinct is less effective, and our Tier sets are now improperly itemized.

Not to mention the weapon changes we're getting. You'll see a buff in AP as a whole, and thusly more DPS.

On a related note: Boo at the Shapeshifter's Signet now being horrible.

Kauroth
11-07-2007, 09:35 AM
On a related note: Boo at the Shapeshifter's Signet now being horrible.


So I should stop my rep grind?

Dangit...only 1000 to go till Exhalted.

Feck.

Veriden
11-07-2007, 12:56 PM
So I should stop my rep grind?

Dangit...only 1000 to go till Exhalted.

Feck.

Yeah, might as well. The patch is next week, and the Shapeshifter's Signet now goes from providing a substanial increase to hit, to providing basically nothing if you aren't hit capped. At least the nerf to Feral Combat skill doesn't hurt us as much as rogues and the changes in Weapon Skill; their hit cap is now ~365 (from the 305 ish before). Owch.

guice
11-07-2007, 02:00 PM
I don't get it, what's expertise rating suppose to be for? It is all of your combat skills? If so, that's a bit of a buff isn't it? This is under the assumption that expertise rating will increase dagger, feral, sword, axe (and so on) skills.

DrękLord
11-07-2007, 05:16 PM
I don't get it, what's expertise rating suppose to be for? It is all of your combat skills? If so, that's a bit of a buff isn't it? This is under the assumption that expertise rating will increase dagger, feral, sword, axe (and so on) skills.
I believe expertise is a new stat that reduces the likelihood of an enemy dodgin, parrying, or blocking your attacks.

New combat stat: Expertise

This new statistic reduces the chance that your attacks will be blocked, dodged, or parried. Expertise rating replaces weapon skill rating on current items.

tlbj6142
11-07-2007, 05:19 PM
But it does not replace +hit.

Annikk
11-07-2007, 07:00 PM
so basically, you know how at the moment we have staff skill, 1h sword skill, 2h axe skill, etc? Well, these are about to be rolled into one single stat, called Expertise...right?


-Annikk

guice
11-07-2007, 08:04 PM
so basically, you know how at the moment we have staff skill, 1h sword skill, 2h axe skill, etc? Well, these are about to be rolled into one single stat, called Expertise...right?


-Annikk
That's what it sounds like. That should also include feral skill. Looks to me they just made the ring useful for all melee classes, not just druids and rogues like it is now.

tlbj6142
11-07-2007, 08:19 PM
I believe the change on the ring is such that it does not give us the +hit like it use to. Now it just reduces the change to get a dodge or parry.

+hit>WE

guice
11-07-2007, 09:00 PM
I believe the change on the ring is such that it does not give us the +hit like it use to. Now it just reduces the change to get a dodge or parry.

+hit>WE
But it never did +hit. It was +20 Feral skill and +20 Dagger skill.

Veriden
11-08-2007, 02:08 AM
But it never did +hit. It was +20 Feral skill and +20 Dagger skill.

Here's how it works (*from http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill)

Weapon skill represents your proficiency with a particular Weapon. The basic formula for your maximum weapon skill at a particular level is (5 * level).*

Druids automatically have the Weapon Skill (or Feral Combat Skill) maxed out for their paws. So, our proficiency is maxed.

But what does Weapon Skill do?

Among other things, it affects your hit cap.

In PvE (at least), a player's chance to miss is determined solely by the difference in the defending mob's Defense Skill and the player's Weapon Skill. Further, the effect is not linear. So, there are actually two different formulas that might apply, depending upon whether the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10 or not. Here are the two formulas:

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 70 character with a 350 Weapon Skill:

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0%
* v. Level 71 mob: 5.5%
* v. Level 72 mob: 6.0%
* v. Level 73 mob: 9.0%

Thus if you are a Level 70 character with a Weapon Skill of 350, you need a Hit Rating of 142 (9.00%) to never miss a shot against a Level 73 boss (or skull mob).

What this means is that there is a big +hit benefit to keeping your Weapon Skill within 10 levels of the mobs you are trying to fight. For example, by improving your Weapon Skill from 350 to 355, you effectively reduce your chance to miss against Level 73 mobs by 3%! However, after getting to 355, increasing your Weapon Skill the next 5 levels, to 360, only reduces your chance to miss by an additional.5% (or 3.5% in total). Also, note that there is a huge jump in miss rate reduction by going from 354 to 355 Weapon Skill. This is the point where you switch from one formula to the other, and so this particular single point of Weapon Skill is worth a dramatic +1.4% hit against a Level 73 mob/boss.

So basically, Weapon Skill improves, for now anyway, your chance to hit against mobs.

The equivalent of Weapon Skill was Feral Combat Skill. The two did the same thing; they increased your chance to hit against mobs.

Thus, the Shapeshifter's Signet's value. It increased Feral Combat Skill by 20, which was a rather large boost to one's chance to hit a mob.

But with the next patch, Feral Combat Skill and Weapon Skill no longer increase a weapon's proficiency level; instead, it is replaced with Weapon Expertise, which decreases your chance to be dodged, parried, etc.

This is why Rogue's now have a higher hit cap, and ours can no longer be achieved by 100 hit rating and 20 feral combat skill.

Sorry for the short, slimmed down version. Not feeling up for going in depth, at the moment, but I hope that helps. ><

Annikk
11-08-2007, 04:57 AM
So will there be an "optimal" amount of expertise rating? Would we require this in addition to 142 hit rating?


-Annikk

Veriden
11-08-2007, 06:15 AM
To that, I do not know. It'll be a decent boost once you have hit the hit cap of 142 hit rating. But I don't know if it'd be worth it to go out of your way for it. I haven't done much researching on expertise.

tlbj6142
11-08-2007, 08:59 AM
But it never did +hit. It was +20 Feral skill and +20 Dagger skill.See post #19, Veriden explained it nicely. In short, FWS would help reduce the amount of +hit needed. WE does NOT.

Hence, the ring has been nerf'd.

Abies
11-08-2007, 10:23 AM
Hence, the ring has been nerf'd.

Well, it depends.
If you are already at the hit cap without the ring, it suddenly becomes very interesting (as do the other items that give you WE). Because then you can do something to increase the percentage of your hits beyond the hit rating cap - by decreasing parry and dodge of your opponent.
So it really depends on how you see it.

tlbj6142
11-08-2007, 10:36 AM
If you are already at the hit cap without the ringTrue. Once you reach the +hit cap, having WE will increase your DPS since fewer of your hits will be dodged or parried.

guice
11-08-2007, 10:49 AM
What is the hit cap? Because 142 is actually very easy to hit. I know on my rogue I have over 200. I forget what I have in my cat gear, but I do know is above 100, probably near 140s.

tlbj6142
11-08-2007, 11:13 AM
I believe it is still 142.

Annikk
11-08-2007, 11:37 AM
I think the amount of hit rating you need is much higher if you are duel-wielding. Cats, seemingly, only attack with 1 paw.


-Annikk

tlbj6142
11-08-2007, 11:49 AM
I think the amount of hit rating you need is much higher if you are duel-wielding.True. That hasn't changed. However, the change to WE from say "dagger skill" means that rogues need an excessive about of +hit. As many of their weapons had weapon skill before. I'm sure they are PO about the change more than anyone else.

Veriden
11-08-2007, 05:56 PM
True. That hasn't changed. However, the change to WE from say "dagger skill" means that rogues need an excessive about of +hit. As many of their weapons had weapon skill before. I'm sure they are PO about the change more than anyone else.

Yep. The Weapon Skill made their desired hit rating levels around 305ish, so it was easy to get. Now it's been bumped up to 365 ish, due to the change. It was hard to hit 300 as it was, let alone now get 50-60 more. >< All the rogues I know QQ over it, and for good reason.