View Full Forums : Bear: non-Raid stat priority...


tlbj6142
01-01-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm not there yet, but I'm planning. I'll be more likely to be running lvl 70 5-mans (and eventually heroics) than Raids.

What should my stat priorities be at lvl 70? Should I focus on becoming uncritable (+def/+res) at the expense of all other stats? Or just take the +def as it comes and focus on stacking +sta, +armor, +agi and +dodge?

Looking at my (easy to obtain) gear list (http://bigbearbutt.blogspot.com/2007/09/druid-tank-starter-gear-at-70.html) for level 70, I may come up a bit short on +def until I make a few dozen 5-man runs hoping for lucky drops.

So, in the meantime should I socket all gems with +def gems? Or swap out a few "weaker" +sta/agi pieces with "XXX of defense" or "XXX of the champion" gear while socket'ing gems with +sta, +agi and +dodge? I'm leaning toward the later. I'd use enchants and a few AH greens to reach the 415 (really only need 410 for non-raid stuff) +def on boss fights until my gear has "naturally occurring" +def/+res. Or do some of you find you still need to socket +def/+res even after obtaining "good" gear?

Any thoughts?

Kheldar
01-02-2008, 05:01 AM
i'm the same as you tlb.

i took a big break from wow post BC as was fed up with the grind of raiding and could not provide the level of committment needed for multi 4 hr raids a week.

recently came back and am now just enjoying getting some 5 man experience, maybe moving onto Kara if i can.

always been feral but never got muc tanking chance pre BC.

now with BC i'm forever being /w to come and tank such and such !

I've just got my Earthwarden (after living in SV for the past couple of weeks!) and this has comfortably taken my +Def to 420+

I've also looked at that Bear Tanking site you've linked and it looks to have a good starting idea on gear for us to aim for....

I also picked up the Resolute Cape yesterday, so i had a good but expensive day !

For the moment to get to +Def i have socketed the Clefthoof set with some +Def.


I also recently got a quest reward from (iirc) Dimensius the All Devouring which gave circa +20 def ? Its a trinket with a name like Dabrai ? (sorry i know i'm being a bit vague!)

Other than my recent look to augment my DEF i've always looked at Ar/Sta as the 2 priorities.

Not fully sure where +Res fits in (ie on the Resolute Cape) compared to +Def as its a stat i've not fully understood - esp given my post BC Wow sabbatical.

Not sure what's a good set of stats - currently with MOTW i'm around 22k Armour, 12.5k ish HP.

Am about to start running some heroics and move onto running Mech / Bot etc.

I'm working on better gems having put in the cheap ones for now but with the nice Bag/s of Premium Gems i've gotten from the Consortium guy in Nagrand i have a few good quality gems to get cut :)

Dilalamer
01-02-2008, 09:22 AM
Pre-Kara, the number one thing to make sure you get is uncrittability. As a druid, you're always getting crushed (+50% damage compared to a normal hit when hit by something higher level than you), which we can't control. All we can control is getting crit (taking +100% damage compared to a normal hit). So do this to minimize spike damage. Back from the MC days, remember, uncrittability and the control of spike damage is the key to basic tanking gear.

Second basic rule of basic tanking gear is: Have enough health to survive the spike. Druids generall have an easier time of this Pre-Kara than warriors. Essentially, you want to stack stamina until you're around 12k *unbuffed* and in *caster form*. I know, it's a lot, but that should put right around 20k health in bear form, fully raid buffed (a bit higher if you get an imp). Get to that health level without compramising rule 1.

Third rule of tanking* (for druids only. Warriors have parry/block/strength in their third rule): Agility is better than armor. This applies, as you can see from that link you provided, in the styling purple hat and the wastewalker gloves. Maximize agility without compramising rules 1 and 2.

Fourth Rule of tanking: Armor. Max out your armor without compramising rules 1 through 3, above.

Fifth rule of tanking: +hit saves the wipe (and to a lesser extent, Expertise)! getting to 142 "+to hit" (and 80 expertise) is almost impossible in a good tanking set that obeys rules 1 through 4, but getting up there can have a huge impact. Not only does your snap agro (mangle) and general agro generation become more reliable and constant. Further, your taunts are impacted by your +hit. So if you max out your +to hit, your taunt will almost always land!

Follow that when looking at gear. Or, cheat, and go to http://druid.wikispaces.com/Rawr and do it the easy way. I find that rules 2-4 match up very nicely. Rule 1 is the old school rule of 'not wiping the raid from spike damage' and rule 5 is about agro, not so much mitigation.

Pre-Kara, just running heroics, you should be able to follow these rules and (assuming you don't do many heroics for the 'easy mode' tanking gear like "Cowl of Beastly rage" for 50 badges):

Styling Purple hat + tanking enchant
Necklace of the deep + stam gems
Shoulderpads of assassination + agi/+hit gems and either aldor/scryer tanking enchant
Thorium weave cloak with +12 agi enchant
heavy clefthoof chest: stam in blue slot, def/stam in yellow slots. +150 health enchant
umberhowl's collar with +12 stam enchant
verdant gloves with +15 agi enchant
Manimal's clutch
heavy clefthoof leggings with +stam in blue slots and +def/stam in yellow slots, +30stam/10 agi patch
heavy clefthoof boots with +12 agi (or boar's speed) enchant, same gemming rules as above
two iron bands of the unbreakable
badge of tenacity (just takes money or luck to get it)
darkmoon faire card: vengeance (just takes money to get it)
earthwarden with +35 agility

All that will get you uncrittable, 18k health raid buffed, 25k armor and 30% dodge. That's the easy part. After that, it becomes a juggling act! All of that can be gotten without kara or heroics!

tlbj6142
01-02-2008, 09:33 AM
Got it.

+def/+res>+sta>+agi>+armor>+hit/expertise

Back to my question (it was sort of vague), should I use gems to reach my +def/+res goal, or swap-in an AH piece ("xxx of defense" or "XXX of the champion") to meet the required uncritable level sacrificing +sta, +agi and +armor.

Switching gears a bit, if you have a mixture of +def and +res gear, how exactly do you "know" you've reach the uncritable level? Does the defense tool tip in the character sheet combine +res and +def to make this easier to determine?

tlbj6142
01-02-2008, 09:36 AM
Not fully sure where +Res fits in (ie on the Resolute Cape) compared to +Def as its a stat i've not fully understood - esp given my post BC Wow sabbatical.+res reduces your chance of being crit as well. I believe rating for rating +res is better than +def. IOW, +8 defense rating reduces your critability level less than +8 resiliency rating. Making +res>+def. +res is typically found on PvP gear, so my chances of getting +res are quite low as I don't do PvP.

Kauroth
01-02-2008, 11:21 AM
415 Defense or 103 Resilience will make you "uncrittable".

However, Defense gives you more than Resilience (hence it's "harder" to find) as it also adds to Miss/Dodge where Res doesn't.

But later on is when you have to start worrying about Defense.

When you're getting Tiered Pieces, then you need to find other places to find Defense.

Rings/Trinkets/Cloak/Neck/Weapon are pretty much our only options I believe.

Dilalamer
01-02-2008, 01:42 PM
To know *exactly* how close you are to being uncrittable, the only 'sane' way I have found is to use rawr. Otherwise, just break out a pen and pencil and add up the crit reduction from the tool-tip popups in your character menu. (move your cursor over the defense value and over the resilience value). I think the total reduction you need is 2.6%. get that much and you're golden.

As to gemming, In general, I recommend stearing clear of it whenever possible. Gemming for stam/agility is more useful, since you have options. For example, in my above list, the neck gives no defense. Swap that around for a "Necklace of the Juggernaut" (heroic badge reward) and pick up 22 defense rating at the cost of stamina.

*do not* use green items that are "of defense." I don't recall seeing any leather peices that are "of the champion" so i don't think that's an option (I think "of the champion" is only available to mail/plate). If there are, I'd use those sparingly, just because it's not an ideal state loadout for druids (strength instead of agility. strength gives some mitigation to warriors, but gives us nothing but AP).

tlbj6142
01-02-2008, 01:53 PM
As to gemming, In general, I recommend stearing clear of it whenever possible. Gemming for stam/agility is more useful, since you have options. I assume this should read "I recommend stearing clear of gemming +def whenever possible.", correct?

Kauroth
01-02-2008, 03:38 PM
No.

Use +Def Gems (when you first get your set).

Once you get Earthwarden and either of the +Defense cloaks (Illhoof/Badge Reward) along with the +Defense Head Enchant, then you can start swapping out those gems for Stamina/Agility if you'd like.

Depending on your play style.

I think every gem in my tank set is a +Stamina gem right now.

Dilalamer
01-02-2008, 04:04 PM
I assume this should read "I recommend stearing clear of gemming +def whenever possible.", correct?

Yes, my english skills have never been up to par, sorry. haha.

But yeah, whenever possible, stear away. Obviously, if you need the crit prevention, do it. But some people will slavishly put green gems where-ever they see blue or yellow slots in a tanking set.

Kheldar
01-03-2008, 05:19 AM
+res reduces your chance of being crit as well. I believe rating for rating +res is better than +def. IOW, +8 defense rating reduces your critability level less than +8 resiliency rating. Making +res>+def. +res is typically found on PvP gear, so my chances of getting +res are quite low as I don't do PvP.
same here then as i detest PVP.

thanks for the explanation.

atm i've hit 420 ish DEF so i'm ok, with only some RES on my new Resolute Cape.

tlbj6142
01-03-2008, 09:19 AM
Last night I spent some time looking at what gear I expect to have once I reach lvl 70. Excluding gems, I had 90 DR. Add in the shoulder enchant (scryer) and I'm up to 103 DR. I only need to reach 142 DR for non-RAID instances. Which means, initially, I'll only need to waste 5 gem slots on +8 DR gems. Not ideal, but not too bad. And if I get lucky, with my drops, I might not need to waste that many gems on DR.

Kauroth
01-03-2008, 10:24 AM
Shoot for these to replace the gems as soon as you can.

Sheremar Great Ring (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28675) off Shade Of Aran (Karazhan)
Iron Band of the Unbreakable (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27436) off the first boss in Old Hillsbrad. (You can get two of these if you haven't started running Kara yet.)

2 Rings plus the Earthwarden should allow you to replace the +Defense gems with +Stamina or +Agility.

Dilalamer
01-03-2008, 10:36 AM
Last night I spent some time looking at what gear I expect to have once I reach lvl 70. Excluding gems, I had 90 DR. Add in the shoulder enchant (scryer) and I'm up to 103 DR. I only need to reach 142 DR for non-RAID instances. Which means, initially, I'll only need to waste 5 gem slots on +8 DR gems. Not ideal, but not too bad. And if I get lucky, with my drops, I might not need to waste that many gems on DR.

Eeek. That's a lot of +DR gems. If you're that short, you really need to work on grabbing defense rings. And, further, can you get the +defense/dodge head enchantment (from Keepers of time)?

tlbj6142
01-03-2008, 12:31 PM
Looking back, this is really why I started this thread...

OK, this is where the chicken and egg scenario comes into play. I need +def to tank, but I have to tank to obtain +def gear. So, where do I draw the line? There is only so much +def I can obtain from non-instance questing.

Should I just avoid all lvl 70 5-man instances until I'm able to reach the +def cap? If so, how do I tank SV for CE rep so I can get my earthwarden and +27 DR? Find someone else to tank and do heal/dps?

Dilalamer
01-03-2008, 01:05 PM
I'd start at the bottom and work your way up. How do you get the easiest DR? In my opinion, the easiest ways are Heavy clefthoof set (just buy with money), Keepers of time enchantment (requires running black morass a few times. Shouldn't be too hard. feral druids should have no problem taking care of the adds if your gear isn't good enough to tank the big mobs), scryer enchant (easy to farm signets, just takes time), iron bands of the unbreakable are non-unique (so you can get two of them) and drop from a level 66 instance (Old-Hillsbrad), so any level 70 druid should be able to tank it, even with relatively crappy gear. Once you're at that point, you should be more than geared enough for SV (heroics might be difficult for you still, but if you can get good CC, heroic SP and heroic SV should be within your grasp too). Further, if tanking these instances is just not working or you can't get groups, save up money and buy the Coilfang armaments off the AH for the turn in.

Like i said, the list above is for druids without stepping foot into a heroic, karazahn or a 25 man instance. They may take time but should be totally gettable. If you can find a good healer, just the heavy clefthoof set is enough for non-heroics of almost any instance (i actually did Shadow labs the first 4 times at level 69 without the clefthoof set, but I had a really good healer and two good CC. Group make up >> gear).

tlbj6142
01-03-2008, 08:13 PM
OK, here's my plan...
Obtain purchasable tanking items. Stylin' Purple Hat, Necklace of the Deep, Dreamer's Shoulderpads, Clefthoof Set (+74 DR), Delicate Eternium Ring, Braxxis, Hauyne Ring of the Champion (+14 DR), Scryer shoulder enchant (+13 DR) Done. Total: +101 DR.
Run Slave Pens and Ramparts whenever in hopes of getting Bogstrok Scale Cloak (+16 DR) and/or Mok'Nathal Clan Ring (+14 Res). Not included in total.
After reaching 70, obtain quest reward items, Umberhowl's Collar, Manimal's Cinch, Cloak of the Valiant Defender (+15 DR). Total: +116 DR.
Finish remaining CE rep quests in BEM and Netherstorm.
Run Old Hillsbrad/BM to obtain 2 Iron Band of Unbreakable (+17 DR each) and Glyph of the Defender (+16 Def). Total: +152 DR.
Consider CE Rep neck (+19 DR) and/or Green wrist (+26 DR) as needed.
Run SV to reach exalted to obtain Earthwarden (+27 DR) ($$)
Enchant items as needed. ($$$)
Buy trinkets ($$$$$$)
Obtain some sort of tanking idol?!?!?!
Looking at this plan, it doesn't seem like I'll need to use many, if any, +def gems.

BTW, made this earlier today. Assumes you are lvl 70 and have SotF.
Mob Level +def +DR
73 65 154
72 60 142
71 55 131
70 50 119
69 45 107
68 40 95
67 35 83
66 30 71
65 25 60
64 20 48
63 15 36
62 10 24
61 5 12

Information could be used when you tank lower level instances. You could swap out some +DR gear for more +STA and/or DPS.

Kheldar
01-04-2008, 04:26 AM
you should be able to tank in 5 mans non heroic with less than 420 def.

i've been able to do a ton of SV's recently since my return to WoW with it sitting at under 400 when i started.

so i dont believe you need to avoid 70 5 mans...although the more experienced players may say avoid some of them ?

That trinket i mentioned from a quest in Netherstorm with a high +def is a good item to aim for if you've not already got it. And the Aldor shoulder enchant is good if you have the rep.

And you should be able to farm / tank SV normal with less than the cap of +def. I've lost track of the times i've tanked it recently. Mainly we've had me, a priest and then rogues / hunters. seems to be a lack of locks / mages etc who want to come to normal SV.

Not sure of your stats currently - +def +res AR and Sta ?

I've been running SV with approx 22.5k AR and 13.5k ish HP (buffed MOTW and Priest STA). And my gear is 'average'. Still some items left from Pre BC - ie my rings.

I do now have the Resolute Cape and Earthwarden but i only got them 3 days ago....

Allahanastar
01-04-2008, 08:52 AM
One interesting thing you should note is that the more gear you replace, the more issues you'll have tanking. I find these days that I have to tank two or three mobs at once or I just don't generate enough rage. I've had a few times I've tanked in my DPS gear just for giggles because my full bore tanking set for raids just gives me too much mitigation.

One awesome, awesome, awesome option for tanks who don't want to do Kara is to get two or three pieces of the Season 1 arena gear. I personally got the helm and shoulders. Its probably a week or two committment to get what you need (possibly less if you can get it timed right with a bonus weekend).

tlbj6142
01-04-2008, 08:59 AM
That trinket i mentioned from a quest in Netherstorm with a high +def is a good item to aim for if you've not already got it. I looked that one up. It is called Dabiri's Enigma (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30300) and has +30 DR. Plus even though it is a group[5] quest, the comments indicate you can take the guy out solo with ranged attacks. The +30 DR is huge. I'm surprised that trinket isn't mentioned more often.

tlbj6142
01-04-2008, 09:01 AM
I find these days that I have to tank two or three mobs at once or I just don't generate enough rage.I read somewhere this is can be due to too much dodge. And that we should aim to have no more than 40% dodge after raid buffs.

Abies
01-04-2008, 09:19 AM
Rage generation depends on a lot of factors.

- Your mitigation (armor)
- Your avoidance (dodge, defense)
- Your AP (the more damage you do, the more rage you generate)
- Your crit chance (each crit gives you 5 extra rage)
- Your hit and expertise (not hitting your enemy is not giving you any rage).
- The DPS of your opponent

Generally you should aim for as much of above stats as possible. For your prime-time tanking set do not limit yourself to 40% dodge or such. Go for the best you can find. When tanking raid bosses (and some normal mobs) you will definitely have no rage issues, no matter your stats.


If you have problems with rage generation because you are overgeared for the instance you are doing, simply put together a second tanking set. I use my PvP set for tanking non-heroic 5-mans, because I am crit immune and have good health, but with less dodge and armor. Also I do a lot of damage (lots of rage and threat).

You can combine some pieces from your tanking set and some of your DPS set for a kind of "in between". This is also very useful for fights where you tank first and then switch to DPS.

Dilalamer
01-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Generally, you want your tanking set to be the maximum mitigation possible. If you're tanking non-heroic 5-mans, you can switch out some of your tanking items for DPS items (for example, I might drop my T4 armor peices for the rogue-dps items from Karazahn. Less armor and more +hit, both which gives more agro generation).

When you switch out gear though, you have to be careful! Do not drop your defense/resilience into critable range because one of those spikes can kill any tank, sadly.

It is easier for the DPS to do less damage (i.e. generate less agro) than for your healers to heal you more. Thus, if you don't generate enough rage/agro because your mitigation is high, you need your dps to lay off a bit. If the DPS pulls agro and dies, get an agro meter (Omen is a good one) and make them pay attention. Endgame raiding is based on this. In cat form on bosses, even with salv, I can pull agro off of most tanks if I do not pay attention.

It is the DPS' responsibility to not pull agro. It is the tank's job to stay alive first and generate the maximum amount of agro second.

Kheldar
01-08-2008, 04:09 AM
I looked that one up. It is called Dabiri's Enigma (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30300) and has +30 DR. Plus even though it is a group[5] quest, the comments indicate you can take the guy out solo with ranged attacks. The +30 DR is huge. I'm surprised that trinket isn't mentioned more often.

yep that's the one. helped my def no end getting it and even with 5 man its easy to get.

but yes that q is doable 2 man with range, a guildie priest did it 2 man with him, the npc's and a hunter. and i had his help and a hunter plus the npc's.

Veriden
01-08-2008, 06:47 PM
I'll throw out an honorary mention to one of the ways I was at crit reduction cap in raids:

Elixir of Ironskin
Requires Level 55
Use: Increases Resilience Rating by 30 for 1 hour. Guardian Elixir.



Also, in regards to rage generation, I totally agree. Five-mans became a lot harder to generate rage/threat. Still managed it, but it took a little extra effort. Most of the time I'd switch to DPS set and give my healers some actual challenge. Or I'd just tank extra mobs (3+) in my tank gear.

Funny how making the gear better makes your job harder in some cases, though.