View Full Forums : Attack rotation for bleed able boss's?


Dark_Holiday
01-10-2008, 10:18 AM
Hello, this is my first post so I do want to say this is an awesome site and as a newly found love of the druid class, and prob my fav (70 priest, 70 hunter) I just want to say thanks in advance for the advice.

So I was in Heroic Mech last night and I found myself stumbling on my 5th attack ration on the bleeding bosses. I would think that it would be best to refresh mangle again so my rip ticks for the full amount, but I also thought that it could be a energy dump, I find myself dumping energy a lot and as this is happening I am obviously lowering my dps a huge amount. I need some help setting up a good cat bleeding boss rotation; so far I was thinking something like this:

First set would be:
Pounce – mangle – shred – mangle – rip

In combat set:
Mangle – shred – shred – mangle – mangle – rip
Rinse and repeat

These are both considering I get no crits at all, my gear is not all that good and my crit rate is a constant 30%. Obviously with gear upgrades it will change but as of now this is what I have come up with, does anyone have any suggestions?

tlbj6142
01-10-2008, 10:39 AM
From what I've read, for group PvE DPS with Kitty, the "ideal" rotation is...

Mangle
Shred (until 4 or 5 combo points, whatever comes first)
Wait until you have 70-80 Energy, then
Rip
Mangle
Go to Step 2

Throw in a FFF at some point while you are waiting for energy.

The key is step 3. Rip's first Dot effect doesn't begin until after 2 seconds, allowing you to Rip and then Mangle to get the full Mangle bleed bonus on all of your Rip bleeds ticks plus get the 30% damage bonus on your next round of Shreds.

It is also possible to "power shift" (take advantage of Furor) if/when your energy is less than 10(?), but I'm not sure about the timing. As you need more than 40E to perform a shred, but I think the energy ticks continue when you are out of form, so timing the power shift is important. I have no first hand experience with power shifting so I don't quite understand the "How's" and "When's" of the move.

Abies
01-10-2008, 10:44 AM
You are having the right idea.

I wouldn't run a fixed rotation though. A lot of things get in the way of that (crits, misses, ...).

Just keep the Mangle debuff on the mob and reapply only if it is running out, otherwise just Shred. (You seem to mangle too often judging from the rotations you posted).

Rip when you have 5 CP.

Reapply Feral Fairy Fire when you have a global cooldown that you are not using otherwise.

Get yourself a timer addon so you know how long the Mangle debuff will stay on the mob and use it to time your Mangles.
Shred does a lot more damage then Mangle, every time you Mangle unnecessary you waste DPS.

Dark_Holiday
01-10-2008, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=tlbj6142]From what I've read, for group PvE DPS with Kitty, the "ideal" rotation is...

[list=1] Mangle
Shred (until 4 or 5 combo points, whatever comes first)
[QUOTE]

I have heard of some druids only waiting till 4 combo points if there is no crit, is there any specific reason for this? I am a little lost in the sauce on this one.

tlbj6142
01-10-2008, 11:27 AM
Since it is possible to "skip" the 4th CP and go directly to 5th CP. You should Rip at 4 CP if you get there first, but Rip at 5 CP if you get there first (crit at 3 CP would land you at 5 CP).

However, if you perform another shred at 4 CP, you run the risk of losing a CP due to a potential Crit combined with Primal Fury. And it is my understanding that the slight gain in DPS from a 5 CP Rip isn't "worth" the loss of a combo point. Results in less DPS per Energy or something like that.

BTW, for a non-bleedable mob, I believe you don't even bother with Rip (or Bite for that mater). Just Mangle and Shred. Re-apply Mangle when the debuff has expired so you gain the 30% DPS boosts on your Shreds.

Abies
01-10-2008, 11:38 AM
That is something I don't get.

I mean I can see what the "4-CP" guys are thinking, but mathematically it is nonsensical.

Whether you crit or not is random. There is no predetermined list of your hits where some crit and some do not. Every time you attack the game rolls virtual dice. The result is completely random. Even with a pseudo random number generator, the finisher you use will change the outcome of the next dice roll, therefore making this strategy useless. Just wait for 5 CP and maximise your DPS that way.

tlbj6142
01-10-2008, 12:01 PM
The damage difference between Rip4 and Rip5 isn't significant. Rip costs less energy than another Shred, so you may be nerfing your DPS by waiting? I don't know.

Go ask the "know it alls" on elitestjerks, that's where I read it. I think it has something to do with Damage per Energy or something like that.

Abies
01-10-2008, 12:26 PM
That may well be the case. But it has nothing to do with "wasting a crit" then.

tlbj6142
01-10-2008, 12:55 PM
It is not wasting a crit, it is wasting a combo point. I also found this quick snipit from the EJ Druid thread regarding Kitty DPS...
DPS Cycle

The standard cycle is:
Mangle -> Shred to 5 combo points -> Wait for 70+ energy (preferably 80+), Rip->Mangle, start again.

Due to the way Rip scales with combo points, a four combo point rip is almost as effective as a 5 combo point rip (there is a static gain, AP doesn't scale between 4 and 5). This makes it quite effective to use a 4 combo point rip if your mangle has already run out (as a non-mangled shred is pretty pathetic in comparison to a mangled one).So, it looks like the primary reason for Rip'ing at 4CP may be due to the loss of the Mangle buff. Assuming you start with 80E and then perform Rip->Mangle->Shred*X, ignoring the CP issue, how many Shreds can you land before the Mangle buff has expired?

Abies
01-10-2008, 01:28 PM
I meant "wasting a CP". It does not waste a CP. That's what randomness is all about.

The thing with "using your finisher at 4 CP because a crit would waste a CP" is just something that really bothers me because it is nonsense. Thats why I reacted that way.


The reason you now posted is actually pretty interesting and is a very good argument for using your Rip at 4 CP.

tlbj6142
01-10-2008, 01:44 PM
The thing with "using your finisher at 4 CP because a crit would waste a CP" is just something that really bothers me because it is nonsense. Thats why I reacted that way.I still don't understand why it is nonsense. Wasted CP are wasted DPS, correct?

Dilalamer
01-10-2008, 03:32 PM
With OOC, 2-peice T4 and 46% crit raid buffed, I have found that I sometimes have more energy than I know what to do with. If i am critting a lot, I will continue to Shred after 4-CPs or even 5 CP's if I have a rip still ticking away.

The question as to why I would waste CP's as opposed to overwriting an old rip with a fresh one is simple: If I waste, say, 4 seconds or so from my old rip by overwriting it, that 4 seconds of ticks are wasted. If i shred, the combo point i generate is wasted. Combo points are not actively generating damage and the rip is.

As long as Rip is up 100% of the time, Mangle is up 100% of the time and you're shredding while Mangle is up, you're maximizing your DPS.

tlbj6142
01-10-2008, 03:47 PM
As long as Rip is up 100% of the time, Mangle is up 100% of the time and you're shredding while Mangle is up, you're maximizing your DPS.Agree. That's excellent advice. Though it is probably harder to do than the common "advice" I gave above. But, then, if you want max DPS, it shouldn't be that easy.:flipbg:

So, the key is to get a good DoT timer addon so you can easily see when you should stop Shredding and do white damage to build up energy in order to reset the cycle (Rip->Mangle->Shred) without wasting a Rip tick.

Elymanrock
01-10-2008, 09:24 PM
Mangle if it isn't up then shred to 5points. On Mobs I general would only go to 4 then Rip as often the Mob would be down if I waited longer. Generally running 38-41% crit so that is 2-3 hits then Rip, and OOC popping off.

On Gruul etc.. I am also using AP trinkets and Potion of Insane Strength, and Powershifting to maximise output. So I always timing the Rip while a trinket or the effects of Insane Strength. In some situations I might only get 3-4 combos off before he knocks all back then I Rip just to keep Dps constant.

If you have a bear OT or MT, then you needed worry at all about mangle, get Everbloom and shred away!

Dark_Holiday
01-11-2008, 01:52 AM
Agree. That's excellent advice. Though it is probably harder to do than the common "advice" I gave above. But, then, if you want max DPS, it shouldn't be that easy.:flipbg:

So, the key is to get a good DoT timer addon so you can easily see when you should stop Shredding and do white damage to build up energy in order to reset the cycle (Rip->Mangle->Shred) without wasting a Rip tick.

Unfortunately I do not have 40% crit, with at least that you can generally expect to have one free CP per rotation so timing your mangle after the rip would make a higher impact on the outcome of your DPM and DPS. I have around 30%, this is more of the “unknown crit” area so it’s harder to tell if I am going to be stacking 4, or I dump energy into the 5th and hope for a good powershift into a mangle. So if you look at it this way, I think that poweshifting at lower crit rate is even more of a DPS improvement over someone fully raid buffed because of the higher “unknown crit” chances, and less chance for the free CP boost for a “true constant CP rotation.”

What are do you guys think?