Annikk

01-11-2008, 04:27 AM

So with the buff to ravage, is it useful now? It's certainly a lot of instant damage, but its a lot of energy as well...

-Annikk

-Annikk

View Full Forums : Ravage; useful yet?

Annikk

01-11-2008, 04:27 AM

So with the buff to ravage, is it useful now? It's certainly a lot of instant damage, but its a lot of energy as well...

-Annikk

-Annikk

Abies

01-11-2008, 05:09 AM

Well the increase amounts to 300 to 500 more damage for your average Druid (when it is a critical hit). I don't think that will change the way I use it.

Ravnia

01-11-2008, 09:28 AM

I played around with this and I have to say that its still not worth the energy. I can kill a mob faster starting with pounce however if ravage does crit nicely the hit can take half of a mob's health but not often enough to use.

AppleJax

01-11-2008, 03:17 PM

Either way, Ravage/Pounce is an opener. It's not like you're gonna spam it.

Base abilities at levelcap:

Pounce: 50 energy, 600 damage over 18 seconds, 3 second stun. Can't crit.

Ravage: 60 energy, 514 damage + 385% weapon damage. Can crit.

Ravage does more damage. But the 3 second stun is very nice in PvP or solo PvE. So imo it's situational.

Ravage would be a nice opener against a boss in PvE when you have a tank holding aggro. Even in PvE or PvP, the higher damage and crittability might be preferable to finish off a wounded target.

It's a trade off. A bit more damage with crittability vs a 3 second stun.

Base abilities at levelcap:

Pounce: 50 energy, 600 damage over 18 seconds, 3 second stun. Can't crit.

Ravage: 60 energy, 514 damage + 385% weapon damage. Can crit.

Ravage does more damage. But the 3 second stun is very nice in PvP or solo PvE. So imo it's situational.

Ravage would be a nice opener against a boss in PvE when you have a tank holding aggro. Even in PvE or PvP, the higher damage and crittability might be preferable to finish off a wounded target.

It's a trade off. A bit more damage with crittability vs a 3 second stun.

Trixtaa

01-12-2008, 02:37 PM

I like big numbers...and I'd say it's still situational. Depends if the mob/person you are opening on is @ full health or not.

3second stun from Pounce is so amazing (and if you shred during those 3 seconds...it can almost equal a crit Ravage (plus more combo points).

3second stun from Pounce is so amazing (and if you shred during those 3 seconds...it can almost equal a crit Ravage (plus more combo points).

Annikk

01-14-2008, 07:36 AM

I was thinking of comparing it more to mangle/shred combinations.

I guess going straight to mangle/shred still works out as a better use of one's energy? Or is ravage now energy-efficient..?

In a raid dps situation, I mean...

-Annikk

I guess going straight to mangle/shred still works out as a better use of one's energy? Or is ravage now energy-efficient..?

In a raid dps situation, I mean...

-Annikk

AppleJax

01-14-2008, 02:28 PM

I was thinking of comparing it more to mangle/shred combinations.

I guess going straight to mangle/shred still works out as a better use of one's energy? Or is ravage now energy-efficient..?

In a raid dps situation, I mean... I don't think it's a big deal. Ravage is an opener. You can only use it as your first attack, after which you can proceed with all the Mangle/Shred spam you desire. The numbers:

Ravage: 60 energy, 385% weapon damage +514.

Mangle/Shred combo: 87 energy, 452% weapon damage +790.

Ravage: 14.983 damage/energy.

Mangle/Shred combo: 14.333 damage/energy.

For the 1.5 seconds between hitting Ravage and the GCD being up, Ravage does something like 600 DPS (599.333). Whereas for the 3.0 seconds between hitting Mangle, then Shred, then waiting for the GCD to be up, the Mangle/Shred combo does 414 DPS.

On the one hand, it would be nice for the Mangle buff to bleeds to be up. At the same time, you can only use Ravage once, and it does do nice burst damage.

I guess going straight to mangle/shred still works out as a better use of one's energy? Or is ravage now energy-efficient..?

In a raid dps situation, I mean... I don't think it's a big deal. Ravage is an opener. You can only use it as your first attack, after which you can proceed with all the Mangle/Shred spam you desire. The numbers:

Ravage: 60 energy, 385% weapon damage +514.

Mangle/Shred combo: 87 energy, 452% weapon damage +790.

Ravage: 14.983 damage/energy.

Mangle/Shred combo: 14.333 damage/energy.

For the 1.5 seconds between hitting Ravage and the GCD being up, Ravage does something like 600 DPS (599.333). Whereas for the 3.0 seconds between hitting Mangle, then Shred, then waiting for the GCD to be up, the Mangle/Shred combo does 414 DPS.

On the one hand, it would be nice for the Mangle buff to bleeds to be up. At the same time, you can only use Ravage once, and it does do nice burst damage.

tlbj6142

01-14-2008, 02:50 PM

Assuming group PvE:

With Mangle/Shred you'll get at least 2 CP. And 1 more chance to crit (resulting in more CP). And given the high crit rates seen on most PvE kitties, this is very likely. Which, of course, means you can Rip sooner.

I would think this would put the Manlge/Shred method above the Ravage method in terms of damage per energy, dps and total damage.

With Mangle/Shred you'll get at least 2 CP. And 1 more chance to crit (resulting in more CP). And given the high crit rates seen on most PvE kitties, this is very likely. Which, of course, means you can Rip sooner.

I would think this would put the Manlge/Shred method above the Ravage method in terms of damage per energy, dps and total damage.

AppleJax

01-15-2008, 01:01 AM

Assuming group PvE:

With Mangle/Shred you'll get at least 2 CP. And 1 more chance to crit (resulting in more CP). And given the high crit rates seen on most PvE kitties, this is very likely. Which, of course, means you can Rip sooner.

I would think this would put the Manlge/Shred method above the Ravage method in terms of damage per energy, dps and total damage. Mangle/Shred are two attacks. Ravage is only one. Your math would be better if you were comparing two attacks to two attacks, ie Ravage/Mangle. Which is kinda silly, as the real benefit of Mangle is the bleed debuff. So then you're looking at waiting for energy regen and comparing Ravage/Mangle/Shred to Mangle/Shred/Shred.

So.

Ravage/Mangle/Shred

Energy: 142

Time spent: 6 seconds

Damage: 2142

DPS: 357

DPE: 15.08

Mangle/Shred/Shred

Energy: 124

Time spent: 4.5 seconds

Damage: 2062

DPS: 458

DPE: 16.62

Which leaves me dissatisfied. On the one hand, I'd like to get more elaborate with the numbers; instead of just three attacks lasting like 6 seconds, I'd like to at least see what it looks like when you get to 5 combo points. But then we're presented with the 4/5 combo point issue.

But I think we're confusing the issue. This is really a Shred vs Ravage issue isn't it? In which case, we don't have to run the math on a whole combat situation. Just compare the two. Or three, since a Mangled Shred is fine too:

Ravage

60 energy

385% + 514

Shred

42 energy (with Shredding Attacks)

225% + 405

Shred with Mangle buff

42 energy (with Shredding Attacks)

292.5% + 526.5

Ravage does a little more damage (between 160% + 109 and 92.5% - 12.5, depending on Mangle), but costs 43% more energy. And you can only use it once, from stealth. Ravage is fail imo. You can't justify using it in PvE and have to get creative to imagine justifying its use in PvP.

Ravage would have to be buffed to something like 500% + 670 to match the DPE of a Mangled Shred. Increasing it from 350% to 385% is laughable.

Disclaimer: I'm not taking AP into account. Just assuming a flat 100 damage weapon (claws). If someone could provide numbers for a more realistic scenario for a level 70 kitty then please do.

With Mangle/Shred you'll get at least 2 CP. And 1 more chance to crit (resulting in more CP). And given the high crit rates seen on most PvE kitties, this is very likely. Which, of course, means you can Rip sooner.

I would think this would put the Manlge/Shred method above the Ravage method in terms of damage per energy, dps and total damage. Mangle/Shred are two attacks. Ravage is only one. Your math would be better if you were comparing two attacks to two attacks, ie Ravage/Mangle. Which is kinda silly, as the real benefit of Mangle is the bleed debuff. So then you're looking at waiting for energy regen and comparing Ravage/Mangle/Shred to Mangle/Shred/Shred.

So.

Ravage/Mangle/Shred

Energy: 142

Time spent: 6 seconds

Damage: 2142

DPS: 357

DPE: 15.08

Mangle/Shred/Shred

Energy: 124

Time spent: 4.5 seconds

Damage: 2062

DPS: 458

DPE: 16.62

Which leaves me dissatisfied. On the one hand, I'd like to get more elaborate with the numbers; instead of just three attacks lasting like 6 seconds, I'd like to at least see what it looks like when you get to 5 combo points. But then we're presented with the 4/5 combo point issue.

But I think we're confusing the issue. This is really a Shred vs Ravage issue isn't it? In which case, we don't have to run the math on a whole combat situation. Just compare the two. Or three, since a Mangled Shred is fine too:

Ravage

60 energy

385% + 514

Shred

42 energy (with Shredding Attacks)

225% + 405

Shred with Mangle buff

42 energy (with Shredding Attacks)

292.5% + 526.5

Ravage does a little more damage (between 160% + 109 and 92.5% - 12.5, depending on Mangle), but costs 43% more energy. And you can only use it once, from stealth. Ravage is fail imo. You can't justify using it in PvE and have to get creative to imagine justifying its use in PvP.

Ravage would have to be buffed to something like 500% + 670 to match the DPE of a Mangled Shred. Increasing it from 350% to 385% is laughable.

Disclaimer: I'm not taking AP into account. Just assuming a flat 100 damage weapon (claws). If someone could provide numbers for a more realistic scenario for a level 70 kitty then please do.

Annikk

01-15-2008, 08:10 AM

Sorry to be pedantic, but..

For the 1.5 seconds between hitting Ravage and the GCD being up,

The global cooldown for rogues and druids when in cat form, is 1 sec. For everyone else it's 1.5.

MANGLED SHRED VS. RAVAGE

For ease of viewing, I have included the results table here. You can view my working below.

At base 10, it costs 42.85% more energy to perform a Ravage, and it does 0.54% LESS damage.

At base 100, it costs 42.85% more energy to use a Ravage, and it does 9.9% more damage.

At base 1000, it costs 42.85% more energy for that Ravage, and it does 26.45% more damage.

At base 10000, it costs 42.85% more energy to do Ravage, but the Ravage does 31.02% more damage.

On the ravage vs mangled shred (great insight into the question I'm trying to answer, btw) I have a sneaky feeling that the choice between them is going to be dependent on attack power. Lets plug some arbitrary numbers in and see what happens.

1. Consider this; if my base damage is 10:

Ravage

385% x 10 = 38 damage, + 514, = 552

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 10 = 29 damage, + 526, = 555

RESULT: At base 10, it costs 42.85% more energy to Ravage, and the Ravage does 0.54% LESS damage.

2. If my base damage is 100:

Ravage

385% x 100 = 385 damage, +514, = 899

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 100 = 292 damage, + 526, = 818

RESULT: At base 100, it costs 42.85% more energy for the ravage, and it does 9.9% more damage.

3. If my base damage is 1000: (there's an order of magnitude for ye!)

Ravage

385% x 1000 = 3850 damage, +514, = 4364

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 1000 = 2925 damage, + 526, = 3451

RESULT: At base 1000, it costs 42.85% more energy for that ravage, and it does 26.45% more damage. Seeing a pattern emerge here now..

4. For the sake of argument, imagine my base damage is 10000.

Ravage

385% x 10000 = 38500 damage, +514, = 39014

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 10000 = 29250 damage, + 526, = 29776

RESULT: It costs 42.85% more energy to Ravage, but the Ravage does 31.02% more damage.

Ok, well that pretty much wraps up this theorycrafting sesson. No 70 druid will ever get a base damage of 10k, so I think we can prove pretty unequivocally that a mangled shred is way better in terms of energy efficiency.

-Annikk

For the 1.5 seconds between hitting Ravage and the GCD being up,

The global cooldown for rogues and druids when in cat form, is 1 sec. For everyone else it's 1.5.

MANGLED SHRED VS. RAVAGE

For ease of viewing, I have included the results table here. You can view my working below.

At base 10, it costs 42.85% more energy to perform a Ravage, and it does 0.54% LESS damage.

At base 100, it costs 42.85% more energy to use a Ravage, and it does 9.9% more damage.

At base 1000, it costs 42.85% more energy for that Ravage, and it does 26.45% more damage.

At base 10000, it costs 42.85% more energy to do Ravage, but the Ravage does 31.02% more damage.

On the ravage vs mangled shred (great insight into the question I'm trying to answer, btw) I have a sneaky feeling that the choice between them is going to be dependent on attack power. Lets plug some arbitrary numbers in and see what happens.

1. Consider this; if my base damage is 10:

Ravage

385% x 10 = 38 damage, + 514, = 552

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 10 = 29 damage, + 526, = 555

RESULT: At base 10, it costs 42.85% more energy to Ravage, and the Ravage does 0.54% LESS damage.

2. If my base damage is 100:

Ravage

385% x 100 = 385 damage, +514, = 899

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 100 = 292 damage, + 526, = 818

RESULT: At base 100, it costs 42.85% more energy for the ravage, and it does 9.9% more damage.

3. If my base damage is 1000: (there's an order of magnitude for ye!)

Ravage

385% x 1000 = 3850 damage, +514, = 4364

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 1000 = 2925 damage, + 526, = 3451

RESULT: At base 1000, it costs 42.85% more energy for that ravage, and it does 26.45% more damage. Seeing a pattern emerge here now..

4. For the sake of argument, imagine my base damage is 10000.

Ravage

385% x 10000 = 38500 damage, +514, = 39014

Shred with Mangle buff

292.5% x 10000 = 29250 damage, + 526, = 29776

RESULT: It costs 42.85% more energy to Ravage, but the Ravage does 31.02% more damage.

Ok, well that pretty much wraps up this theorycrafting sesson. No 70 druid will ever get a base damage of 10k, so I think we can prove pretty unequivocally that a mangled shred is way better in terms of energy efficiency.

-Annikk

AppleJax

01-15-2008, 02:48 PM

So apparently Blizzard has dropped the ball. Ravage has to be massively more powerful to be even worth the energy to use. Which is a crying shame. As a "use from stealth" ability, it should be uniquely powerful and desirable that you use it from stealth. Whereas in fact it's not desirable that you use it at all. GG BLAZ.

Kauroth

01-15-2008, 02:59 PM

I use Ravage in PvP hoping it will crit.

2500 opening FTW!

2500 opening FTW!

tlbj6142

01-15-2008, 03:06 PM

Whereas in fact it's not desirable that you use it at all. GG BLAZ.There are plenty of talents/skills in every class that fall into this category. Not that that is a good excuse, but it happens to everyone. I'd really like it if Blizzard would just drop skills/talents that are useless, but then some of these "useless" skills/talents do have very specific instances in which they do have at least some (though minor) value.

Maybe blizzard thinks it is part of the game. We give you 10 skills, you figure out if they are worth using.

Maybe blizzard thinks it is part of the game. We give you 10 skills, you figure out if they are worth using.

AppleJax

01-15-2008, 03:51 PM

Maybe blizzard thinks it is part of the game. We give you 10 skills, you figure out if they are worth using. That does not sound like a game worth playing, let alone buying. /blasphemy.

Annikk

01-15-2008, 05:32 PM

So apparently Blizzard has dropped the ball. Ravage has to be massively more powerful to be even worth the energy to use. Which is a crying shame. As a "use from stealth" ability, it should be uniquely powerful and desirable that you use it from stealth. Whereas in fact it's not desirable that you use it at all. GG BLAZ.

That's not the case is all - I never said Ravage didn't have its uses. It's true that it's not as energy efficient, but it's awesome for instantly forcing your opponent to run away or turtle. It allows you the ability to 1shot a mage on 40% health without giving them any opportunity to fight back at all. Whereas if you mangled first, in preparation for the shred, there's every chance you would just find yourself frost nova'd, or sheeped, or the mage would blink away from you.

I was thinking of comparing it more to mangle/shred combinations.

I guess going straight to mangle/shred still works out as a better use of one's energy? Or is ravage now energy-efficient..?

In a raid dps situation, I mean...

In terms of single-move instant burst damage, Ravage is the best move available to feral druids.

-Annikk

That's not the case is all - I never said Ravage didn't have its uses. It's true that it's not as energy efficient, but it's awesome for instantly forcing your opponent to run away or turtle. It allows you the ability to 1shot a mage on 40% health without giving them any opportunity to fight back at all. Whereas if you mangled first, in preparation for the shred, there's every chance you would just find yourself frost nova'd, or sheeped, or the mage would blink away from you.

I was thinking of comparing it more to mangle/shred combinations.

I guess going straight to mangle/shred still works out as a better use of one's energy? Or is ravage now energy-efficient..?

In a raid dps situation, I mean...

In terms of single-move instant burst damage, Ravage is the best move available to feral druids.

-Annikk

AppleJax

01-16-2008, 02:41 AM

...single-move instant burst damage... I think this measurement is silly.

Even in your pvp vs a mage scenario. Frost nova? Since when is frost nova a big deal for a kitty? And I seriously doubt a mage is going to do anything useful in the 1 second between Mangle and Shred. Don't forget Furor makes Bash instant-cast. Or you could always open with Pounce.

Ravage has insignificantly more burst DPS than Mangle/Shred, and costs significantly more energy. It's use is limited to balance or resto droods who happen to be in kitty form, and ferals before they get Mangle.

Even in your pvp vs a mage scenario. Frost nova? Since when is frost nova a big deal for a kitty? And I seriously doubt a mage is going to do anything useful in the 1 second between Mangle and Shred. Don't forget Furor makes Bash instant-cast. Or you could always open with Pounce.

Ravage has insignificantly more burst DPS than Mangle/Shred, and costs significantly more energy. It's use is limited to balance or resto droods who happen to be in kitty form, and ferals before they get Mangle.

Annikk

01-16-2008, 06:34 AM

I disagree.

-Annikk

-Annikk

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