View Full Forums : enchant ring striking or +4 stats

Calon

01-27-2008, 10:03 PM

I'm just wondering what is the best enchant for feral dps with the self ring +2 dmg or the +4 stats.

I've had the +4 stats (honored with lower city)

And got the +2 dmg (revered with the consortium)

I noticed my attack power drop by like 40 or so with both rings changed to +2 dmg, but I couldn't find where the increase in damage is. Supposedly it gives +28 (per ring?) with the +2 dmg enchant.

A side note:

Can you tell how valuable an enchant is by the level at which you are able to acquire it? Or maybe by the mats, although voids seem to be worth less on the market these days than shards.

Fiercy

01-28-2008, 01:13 AM

im not sure about the ring enchant, but isnt it so that +dmg enchants doesnt work in cat/bear?

AppleJax

01-28-2008, 01:37 AM

im not sure about the ring enchant, but isnt it so that +dmg enchants doesnt work in cat/bear? Lies. +Damage enchants on gear works in feral forms. +Damage enchants on weapons do NOT. In fact, +damage enchants on gear is excellent for cat form. In cat form, your weapons are claws, and have an attack speed of 1.0; ie, +1 damage is an increase of 1 DPS. +Haste rating (even on weapon, see Iron Counterweight) increases feral attack speed, making +1 damage worth even more than +1 DPS. I'm just wondering what is the best enchant for feral dps with the self ring +2 dmg or the +4 stats. +2 Damage on each ring = +4 DPS, magnified by crit chance and haste rating. +4 stats on each ring = +8 agility and +8 strength = +24 attack power = +1.714 DPS. Since 4 > 1.714, the +damage (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27920) enchant is better for feral DPS. Can you tell how valuable an enchant is by the level at which you are able to acquire it? Or maybe by the mats You can tell the value of something with math. See above.

Annikk

01-28-2008, 05:41 AM

Apple is correct. equip: +weapon damage is pretty nice for ferals. You can see the effect by looking in the Melee tab of your character sheet. Where it says damage, it will have a set of numbers eg 224-238. With a equip: +2 weapon damage enchant, those numbers would instead read 226-240.

Also, I don't think Apple meant "lies" in a mean way... :>

im not sure about the ring enchant, but isnt it so that +dmg enchants doesnt work in cat/bear?

It's a difficult subject as some things work and others don't.

A +7 damage enchant on your weapon would not work. However, Equip: +weapon damage on your other items do work.

An adamantite weightstone increases your critical chance - just like it says - but the +weapon damage component does not work because it is being applied to your weapon - be it a staff or a mace or whatever.

It's all very confusing but don't be afraid to ask if you need to check whether something will benefit you or not :>

-Annikk

AppleJax

01-28-2008, 07:56 AM

I'm not really sure why they don't let +damage buffs on weapons work for feral druids. What, might we actually choose that over the +agility buffs? I don't see what the big deal is.

Annikk

01-28-2008, 09:19 AM

I think it's mainly the mechanics of the game, and it would be a lot of effort to change it. Or maybe there is some other reason. It hardly matters anyway, we still pwn =)

-Annikk

Falloraan

01-30-2008, 02:48 PM

+4 stats on each ring = +8 agility and +8 strength = +24 attack power = +1.714 DPS. Since 4 > 1.714, the +damage enchant is better for feral DPS. You can tell the value of something with math. See above.

You are ignoring the crit you get from 4 agi in that equation, as well as the additional benefits we get from HotW and Kings for the 4 str and 4 agi.

+4 stats = 13.596 AP with HotW and SotF. With BoK it is nearly 15 AP. Also note that moves like Rip scale with AP but not with weapon damage. The crit chance is 0.1648%, or 0.18128% with BoK.

So really what it comes down for dps is:

15 AP + 18% crit vs. 28 AP

Add in the sta and int, and it's a pretty easy decision IMO.

Annikk

01-31-2008, 07:16 AM

Shred _does_ scale with weapon damage though. In a raid dps situation Shred and Rip contribute roughly equal amounts of damage, so that point is moot imho.

White damage is affected by weapon damage too.

Also, crit chance does nothing for rip. So it's doubly moot.

Also I'm not sure how you've arrived at this conclusion:

15 AP + 18% crit vs. 28 AP

We're boiling it down to dps contribution... not attack power and crit vs attack power.. and even then your numbers are off

Also the order you applied the different buffs is incorrect.

It goes base x Kings + Consumables x HotW.

So in this instance we have 8 agility, 10% from kings = 8.8, then with HotW the 8.8 attack power becomes 9.68

The strength is 8, 10% from kings = 8.8str = 17.6 AP x HotW = 19.36 AP.

That's a total of 29.04 attack power. Essentially 29 AP.

It takes ~25 agility to get 1% crit. 8.8 agility therefore works out as 0.352% critical chance.

So, with +4 stats on both rings in a raid dps situation, you would have an additional 29 AP and 0.352% crit chance.

So the damage per second contribution for +4 stats on both rings works out as 2.07108333 (recurring) dps on your white damage, before crit chance, assuming kings. As compared with the +2 weapon damage enchants, which work out at nearly double - 4dps.

+2 damage enchants are better for dps imho, but it would need a hell of a lot more theorycrafting and assumptions about dps rotations to conclusively, mathematically prove it.

This really is a case of extra dps vs extra stats (stamina, intellect, spirit)

If your playstyle is quite hybrid-y, go for the stats. If you mainly just bite stuff, go for the weapon damage. Or if you're not sure, go for one of each :P

-Annikk

AppleJax

02-01-2008, 04:52 AM

Annikk, my hero!

Falloraan

02-04-2008, 06:25 PM

Also I'm not sure how you've arrived at this conclusion:

15 AP + 18% crit vs. 28 APSorry, mis-type. Each +Stats enchant gives roughly 15 AP and .18% to crit, as opposed to the +weapon damage enchant which equates to roughly 28 AP. I'm comparing one enchant to another, not enchanting both rings. Multiply it by two if you want.

We're boiling it down to dps contribution... not attack power and crit vs attack power.. and even then your numbers are offUsing your numbers then, 14.52 AP instead of 15, and .176% to crit chance instead of .18%.

It still boils down to this:

would you rather have 15 AP to ALL damage and .176% crit to non-bleeds, or the equivalent of 28 AP to non-bleedable damage? And nothing you've argued shows anything contrary to what I've said, that the difference between the two is so small you might as well get the +stats for the extra STA and INT.

So the damage per second contribution for +4 stats on both rings works out as 2.07108333 (recurring) dps on your white damage, before crit chance, assuming kings. As compared with the +2 weapon damage enchants, which work out at nearly double - 4dps.

For some real DPS numbers, I put out about 1200 dps on an average fight that doesn't have me running in and out of melee range. I think about 20% of my damage comes from rip, sometimes less. Take rip out of the equation and I put out about 960 non-bleed dps. The extra .176% chance to crit equates to 1.7 dps (960 * .00176). So ignoring the contribution of the crit chance certainly makes your numbers look more attractive. But also incorrect.

AppleJax

02-05-2008, 06:16 AM

I see a wall of text that fails to prove the impossible thing: that 15 AP > 28 AP. Because it doesn't.

Falloraan

02-05-2008, 01:44 PM

I see a wall of text that fails to prove the impossible thing: that 15 AP > 28 AP. Because it doesn't.

You should learn to read then. But to make things simple for the reading impaired:

14.52 AP and .176% to crit and 4 STA and 4 INT > 28 AP

I think that's been dumbed down enough for you to understand.

*ahem*

Let's keep this civil guys.

tlbj6142

02-05-2008, 02:15 PM

Not to take sides, but I'm with AJ. This point14.52 AP and .176% to crit and 4 STA and 4 INT > 28 AP was never clearly made in the above posts. I think the beginnings of that argument are there, but the conclusion was not complete.

That said, I'm not an enchanter, so I guess this doesn't affect me at all.

AppleJax

02-06-2008, 06:07 AM

You should learn to read then. But to make things simple for the reading impaired:

14.52 AP and .176% to crit and 4 STA and 4 INT > 28 AP

I think that's been dumbed down enough for you to understand. I still do not see how 4 sta and 4 int have anything to do with damage calculations. (Nor does the slight % dodge and armor from the agility, which you did omit.) As for the contribution of the slight % crit, you have not shown through calculations that it makes up for the ~13.5 AP. It would be cool to see that. But instead of showing me something new you've gotten hostile, and expect me to assume your guess is valid. How can you expect me to do that? You cannot. Hence my disagreement. It's not reason for you to get upset, it's the logical result of your own actions. *ahem*

Let's keep this civil guys. My temper isn't that short. :)

Were you worried I might work my nefarious chan magics and open a portal to summon The Final Boss of the Internet?

Raging Epistaxis

02-06-2008, 10:32 AM

The Final Boss of the Internet?Is that who the VP of Vtech toys is? I wondered why her photo has appeared a few times here.

Falloraan

02-06-2008, 03:19 PM

As for the contribution of the slight % crit, you have not shown through calculations that it makes up for the ~13.5 AP.

Actually I did show you that, but I think you missed it because it was in a wall of text. Re-posted:

So the damage per second contribution for +4 stats on both rings works out as 2.07108333 (recurring) dps on your white damage, before crit chance, assuming kings. As compared with the +2 weapon damage enchants, which work out at nearly double - 4dps.

For some real DPS numbers, I put out about 1200 dps on an average fight that doesn't have me running in and out of melee range. I think about 20% of my damage comes from rip, sometimes less. Take rip out of the equation and I put out about 960 non-bleed dps. The extra .176% chance to crit equates to 1.7 dps (960 * .00176). So ignoring the contribution of the crit chance certainly makes your numbers look more attractive. But also incorrect.Nowhere I have I said that +4 stats will give more DPS than +2 weapon damage. But the difference between the two is so small that the other benefits of the +stats enchant outweigh the +damage. Does stamina contribute to your DPS? Not directly. But if you are dead, you are doing 0 DPS. Stamina keeps you alive so you can continue to do DPS.

tlbj6142

02-06-2008, 03:35 PM

I hate to butt in (again), but I still don't see your argument in the above message. I see fragments of an argument, but zero conclusion that brings it all together.

Let me take a guess and you correct me...

+4 stats gives me +2.07 DPS (according to Annikk) and you added in 1.7 DPS from crits (did Annikk ignore crits???), so in your mind 2.07 + 1.7 == 3.77DPS (plus +sta, +int +spr) > +4DPS. Is that right?

If so, I'd agree with you.

I'm not trying to be a troll, a jerk, a-hole, but I just don't see your conclusion clearly written anywhere above. It is almost like you forgot one sentence somewhere and left it as an exercise for the reader to fill-in.

Annikk

02-07-2008, 03:17 AM

On an unrelated side-note, I find it pretty incredible that you can claim 960 non-bleed raid dps. I'm kitted out in some pretty nice gear, including 2 piece tier 4 for the energy boost, hit capped, etc, and even with full raid buffs and an enhancement shaman my raid dps INCLUDING bleeds is rarely more than 800dps. You would need to be packing some serious loots to achieve 960dps with bleeds. If you're really suggesting you can achieve that level without bleeds, I'd like to know what your secret is :P

-Annikk

AppleJax

02-07-2008, 04:01 AM

Is that who the VP of Vtech toys is? I wondered why her photo has appeared a few times here. http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj128/thorns_of_amaranth/1187297644259.jpg +4 stats gives me +2.07 DPS (according to Annikk) and you added in 1.7 DPS from crits (did Annikk ignore crits???), so in your mind 2.07 + 1.7 == 3.77DPS (plus +sta, +int +spr) > +4DPS. You put that together pretty well. I like how the +stats enchant scales with raid buffs and Survival of the Fittest. Still, I'd like to see a calculation for converting % crit to DPS. I think I saw one before, once upon a time, but then it shouldn't be a direct conversion should it? The more AP the more DPS +crit rewards, but even then, it suffers from diminishing returns. with full raid buffs and an enhancement shaman my raid dps INCLUDING bleeds is rarely more than 800dps. In which case, the % crit from the +stats enchant will equate to considerably less actual DPS. Seriously, who does 1200 DPS in a raid? Warlocks in tier 6?

For Ring Enchants, +2 weapon damage is very marginally better in terms of pure DPS to +4 stats when fully raid buffed, however +4 stats will also give you extra stamina, int and spirit so is probably more worthwhile when taking everything into account.

Found on elitistjerks, so i think it should be pretty correct.

AppleJax

02-07-2008, 05:28 AM

Found on elitistjerks, so i think it should be pretty correct. It's a reputable source. And it corroborates my own theorycrafting. All is win. The +damage enchants are even cheaper. :D

tlbj6142

02-07-2008, 10:05 AM

Based on the EJ comments, I'd use +damage for kitty-only rings. But use the +stat for tanking and/or PvP rings. I assume there is a "better" enchant for resto/moonkin specs.

Falloraan

02-07-2008, 01:02 PM

+4 stats gives me +2.07 DPS (according to Annikk) and you added in 1.7 DPS from crits (did Annikk ignore crits???), so in your mind 2.07 + 1.7 == 3.77DPS (plus +sta, +int +spr) > +4DPS. Is that right?correct

Falloraan

02-07-2008, 01:43 PM

On an unrelated side-note, I find it pretty incredible that you can claim 960 non-bleed raid dps. I'm kitted out in some pretty nice gear, including 2 piece tier 4 for the energy boost, hit capped, etc, and even with full raid buffs and an enhancement shaman my raid dps INCLUDING bleeds is rarely more than 800dps. You would need to be packing some serious loots to achieve 960dps with bleeds. If you're really suggesting you can achieve that level without bleeds, I'd like to know what your secret is :P

-Annikk

I believe I get about 20% of my dps from rip and consistantly put out 1200 dps in a melee-friendly boss fight (there's WoW oxymoron). So the 960 figure comes from 1200 dps * .80 (non-bleed damage). I've done over 1400 dps in some fights with the right group make-up and buffs. And I struggle to be in the top 10 raid dps, with our rogues and MS warrior pushing over 2k dps regularly.

AppleJax

02-08-2008, 04:54 AM

I assume there is a "better" enchant for resto/moonkin specs. Indeed. Enchant Ring - Spellpower (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27924). +12 spell damage on each ring is nice.

Repelsteel

02-20-2008, 07:24 AM

FYI: I have the +2dmg enchants on my dps rings, +4 stats on my tanking rings and the Enchant Ring - Healing Power (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27926) on my healing rings.

Annikk

02-21-2008, 09:55 AM

I believe I get about 20% of my dps from rip and consistantly put out 1200 dps in a melee-friendly boss fight (there's WoW oxymoron). So the 960 figure comes from 1200 dps * .80 (non-bleed damage). I've done over 1400 dps in some fights with the right group make-up and buffs. And I struggle to be in the top 10 raid dps, with our rogues and MS warrior pushing over 2k dps regularly.

Ah right, just checked... you're in Black Temple/Hyjal gear and packing a Pillar of Ferocity. Looks like you've also had your pick of ZA loots.

I'm in Karazhan/S2/some TK/SSC loots, so that would explain the difference in our manhood size.. ;)

-Annikk

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