View Full Forums : Regrowth too when raiding?


Zute
03-07-2008, 03:25 PM
Ok, I always figured I'd be best served by keeping up lifebloom and rejuv and that regrowth is just for special occasions because it is too mana intensive. But on a recent ZA outing I came to realize I had to do ALL 3 on the tanks. We kept wiping and wiping because the damage spikes were too huge (me and 2 priests healing). I was terrified I'd run out of mana and I did, fortunately the boss went down right when I ran out of mana.

How often do you find you really need to keep all your hots going?

I have been looking at the WWS stats from the other druid in our guild and I see she uses Regrowth much more than I do and lifebloom much less.

Magellan19
03-07-2008, 04:26 PM
I find that if I don't stay completely on top of my LB stack, then a regrowth will be required at some point.

I know there is definately room for improvement when it comes to my healing.......

but I feel compelled to add that....

I also usually end up having to heal the party at some point. By the time I get back to the tank, he needs a regrowth. Not supposed to work that way, I know, but I find that downing a boss works better when the party is alive. ;)

Kyane
03-07-2008, 04:39 PM
Basically lifebloom shouldn't fall off of the tank/tanks. Party, sure let it bloom, but it should never drop off the tank, nor should rejuv. Rejuv should only be down after a swiftmend was needed. Regrowth is ok from time to time, but it will pad your overheal a lot too.

Zute
03-08-2008, 10:49 AM
I still can't quite see how to fit all the raid healing into the space between lifeblooming/rejuv two tanks. Perhaps that's my real problem, I'm trying to heal everyone in the raid while maintaining everything else on the tanks. But that's usually the role they give me: HOT the tanks, spot heal the raid. Yikes! I define HOT's on the tanks as LB, Rejuv and maybe regrowth (in that order), from looking at WWS it seems like the other druids are using Regrowth most, LB/Rejuv about the same amount. I don't think they're keeping up LB all the time. So perhaps that is why I am finding this so difficult.

But that ZA raid, even with LB and Rejuv it still wasn't enough. I think probably our tank might have been a tad better equipped, it was our warrior's pally alt.

Veriden
03-08-2008, 04:30 PM
You have to build your own rotation.

You can refresh two lifebloom stacks easily (three if you push it and time rejuvs and lifeblooms, along with the occasional raid HoT), and then go toss a HoT on another raid member; your job is not to go crazy and HoT everything in sight. Be careful and moderate. Maintaining the lifebloom stacks is first priority.

Lifebloom lasts 6-7 seconds (latency dependant).
Rejuvenation lasts 12 seconds.

Example (note: this rotation is just off the top of my head; I've only raided a select few times as resto, and only for Kara and ZA; my old guild invited me along)

0:00 - Lifebloom Tank A (1)
1:50-2:00 - Lifebloom Tank B (2)
3:00-3:50 - Rejuv Tank A

You now have 2 GCDs to refresh Lifebloom. You can either play it safe and go back to Tank A, or you can throw up another HoT.

4:50-5:00 - Rejuv Tank B
6:00-6:50 (yes, lifebloom can still be refreshed) - Lifebloom Tank A (2)
7:50-8:00 - Lifebloom Tank B (2)

And now you have a full six seconds, roughly, before the Rejuves will run out. Between Lifebloom refreshes, you can throw up a Regrowth, Rejuv, or Lifebloom on a raid member taking damage. You can even swiftmend the Rejuv, or NS + HT for that matter.

It's also going to depend on your latency. I can refresh lifebloom when it's ticking off the last few miliseconds and get 7 seconds for it overall (I even went and checked the times in my combat log just now: refreshes were 16:07:04, 16:07:11, 16:07:18).

So, play with your HoTing, make a rotation, determine when you want to use what. It's all about watching your GCD and HoT durations, while keeping in mind the mechanics of the fight in question.

Fun-fact, you can keep four lifebloom stacks up:

0:00 - Lifebloom A (1)
1:50 - Lifebloom B (1)
3:00 - Lifebloom C (1)
4:50 - Lifebloom D (1)
6:00 - Lifebloom A (2)
7:50 - Lifebloom B (2)
etc.

Hope that helped some.

And, as far as mana goes... I've only run out of mana during Zul'jin when I got invited to him; one of the other healers was an alt, and they were dying quite often in phase 1, and I had to go 3-stack lifebloom on myself full-time in phase 3 and do the majority of the healing or we would wipe. Further, I was in mostly PvP gear (read: except two pieces) and got little from my innervate and didn't have tree form. So, there's that.

Other than that, my raiding experience as resto is very limited.

s3Rgio
03-10-2008, 04:20 AM
i use regrowth very often in raid-healing.
in almost every bossfight.

for example in the kalathress-fight in SSC.
im solohealing most of the time one of the 4 tanks or with a second healer on the main-tank.
I dont know how u do it, but the lifebloom-stack + reju is never enough to keep the tank up when solohealing him...
regrowth is a big part of my rotation.

Pookies
03-10-2008, 09:50 AM
If you need Regrowth, either for the kick or for the HoT, then use it (i.e., tank needs a boost, tank needs more HoTtage, Demon Chain sacrifice on Illhoof, Grievous Throw and Claw Rage on Zul'jin, etc.).

I know that my biggest problem in 10-man healing used to be not remembering to use Swiftmend enough (especially on the tank!). When I remember to use Swiftmend, I use Regrowth a lot less.

If you are running OOM then it is most likely an itemization/consumable problem IMO. I still give my Innervate away most of the time in ZA and up to Leo in SSC (which is as far as we've gotten, heh). Make sure you haven't gimped your mp5, that you have all consumable buffs, that you are chain chugging pots, and that you are popping Bangle of Endless Blessings constantly. See if you can convince your healers to Spellsurge stack.

Magellan19
03-10-2008, 11:00 AM
After a very painful raid, I was going to post this question as a separate topic, but I think it belongs right here....

Kara - All party members except myself and the Main Tank are new to Kara. Meaning pretty much all greens and blues:

The OT is a Warrior, who, after being hit just once, is down to about 30%. Plus, there is a balance druid who is constantly drawing aggro and after one hit is also down to about 30%.

The rest of the party needs occasional healing, but nothing unexpected and have decent enough Stam to be able to take a hit.

I'm healing with a just-keyed-that-day Pally in greens and a couple of blues, who bless his heart, is doing a great job.

So, for boss fights, between MH'ing the MT, emergency heals on the Warrior and Balance Druid, I am OOM.

The party, which is just amazed that I am OOM, actually reminds me that I can self-innervate and drink potions when I need to. :tut:

I remind them that I am NOT an idiot, and I am well aware of potions (I even know the blue ones from the red ones!), and I self-innervate quite often. But during a 13 minute Romulo and Julianne fight, what the heck do they expect? And Curator? Fuggedaboutit. My HoT's just do not cut it on the "one-shot" party members.

Then I'm asked what my Lifebloom is at. :confused:

To be honest, I've never even thought about it. Now I am second-guessing my LB. Can somebody tell me what my lifebloom is supposed to be at?

And, is there any way on this earth that I can prevent myself from running out of mana under these circumstances? Because, believe me people, I'd sure like to give it a try.

s3Rgio
03-10-2008, 12:09 PM
Magellan what do you expect??
It's not your fault i think.
ppl in blues + GREENS have nothing to do in Kara...
You can maybe take 1-3 of such ppl with u if the others are pretty geared out from kara.
At least the tanks and the healers need an equip which contains only blues(the heroic ones) and epics(from heroics, badges etc.)

tlbj6142
03-10-2008, 01:03 PM
Here's a good site with Min. specs by class (http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2007/11/08/minimum-class-stat-requirements-for-karazhan/) for Kara (make sure you read the follow-up comments as well). I certainly don't think you need Heroic items when you enter. Heck, some people think Kara comes before Heroics in terms of progression.

If all of your items come from lvl 70 Dungeons, quest rewards in Netherstorm and/or SMV, you should be fine. Maybe some PvP/Arena items depending on class. Looks for item levels of at least 95 for each slot that benefit your class/spec combination. Don't forget to enchant items.

Allahanastar
03-10-2008, 01:22 PM
From my understanding a healing for druids should look like this:

Multiple Tanks = Lifebloom and Rejuv
Single Target = All HoTs

Magellan19
03-10-2008, 01:29 PM
I certainly don't think you need Heroic items when you enter. Heck, some people think Kara comes before Heroics in terms of progression.

I started healing Kara in all +healing greens, and it worked out just fine, actually. I accumulated all but 2 of my healing set from Kara, and except for one trinket, I'm all epic now.

But, that was with a different, and more experienced group.

Magellan what do you expect??

I guess I was more or less looking for some mana-saving pointers from others who had also started out as healer for a group completely new to Kara. I mean, you have to start somewhere, right? I realize that the better geared this new group gets, then the easier it will be on my mana, but in the meantime....

Zute
03-12-2008, 01:09 PM
Most groups take 3 healers to Kara.

First of all, if someone is drawing aggro, suggest to them that they shouldn't. If that doesn't work, let them die. It isn't going to help the raid if you sink all your mana into someone unable to play well. Ask your group to download Omen to monitor their threat.

You might want to try to divide up the healing somehow, that can help too. Then you and the pally won't be over healing so much, especially on the raid members. Probably pally should be main tank healer with you backing him up with hots. Meanwhile your hots work nicely on AOE dmg on the rest of the raid. Still, you really should have that third healer.

Magellan19
03-12-2008, 02:25 PM
First of all, if someone is drawing aggro, suggest to them that they shouldn't. If that doesn't work, let them die. Ask your group to download Omen to monitor their threat.

During this particular run, I think most of them had omen. "Watch your threat!" was a common statement during the run. Perhaps you are right, I shouldn't be wasting my heals/mana on people drawing unnecessary aggro upon themselves. Although, I honestly don't know if I can do that. :ohwell:

I have no DpS toons at all, therefore, I've never used Omen Threat Meter, but should I install one? Does a full-time healer need Omen? I guess I wouldn't mind seeing the entire party's threat, if that is possible?

Quite honestly, as silly as this sounds, I'm not even sure how it works. I mean, I understand the obvious aspects about it, but how does a player with too much DpS actually cut back on threat and still feasably contribute to a fight?

Still, you really should have that third healer.

Although, the group is only a month old (one run a week), we are clearing Illhoof with 2 healers - not smoothly or without frustration - but it's being done. We do have 3 healers slated for this group, but unfortunately it's not always possible to have all three of us run. When all three of us are present, needless to say, it's a more enjoyable raid. But, I will say, the lack of DpS is definately noticed.

So, I can't help but think we are going to need more DpS for the later bosses.

Pookies
03-12-2008, 02:54 PM
First of all, you will be helping your guild in the long term by insisting that your DPS learn threat management now. Ask yourself this: would you rather your DPS hold back a bit and do a little less damage, or would you rather have them die? Because the rest of the game isn't as forgiving towards bad threat management as Karazhan is.

Secondly, you are going to need more healers for later bosses, especially while learning the instance, because the fights get longer and more healing intensive.

Learning Karazhan is really a three healer affair IMO ... especially if the raid's gear is not up to snuff.

I guess I was more or less looking for some mana-saving pointers from others who had also started out as healer for a group completely new to Kara. I mean, you have to start somewhere, right? I realize that the better geared this new group gets, then the easier it will be on my mana, but in the meantime....

As far as this goes, I have never been in a group completely fresh to Kara, but I do remember when I first respecced to resto and began running Kara in some entry level gear. I was in 2/5 Moonglade, PANTS FROM BLOOD FURNACE (no joke!!! LOL), rep epics (from Sha'tar and CE), Hood of Primal Laif, etc. My absolute biggest problem was remembering to use my trinkets (especially Bangle, which is a must have) and consumable cool downs. After I got the hang of remembering to pot and trinket (and, of course, the upgrades from Kara didn't hurt!), I never had mana problems in Kara again.

Magellan19
03-12-2008, 03:51 PM
My absolute biggest problem was remembering to use my trinkets

Guilty. :frown:

Potions? I never forget those. *Magellan hugs her potions*

But Trinkets? I tend to use those only for boss fights. Why? I cannot explain. I should know better than that. Hell, I do know better than that! Yet, I_keep_forgetting_my_trinkets.

I'll keep you posted on my trinket popping training. :rolleyes:

tlbj6142
03-12-2008, 04:03 PM
I think there is a simple addon called trinket nag or something like that. It will gently remind you to use your trinkets every time they are available.

Pookies
03-13-2008, 10:18 AM
I think there is a simple addon called trinket nag or something like that. It will gently remind you to use your trinkets every time they are available.

I've seen some videos where there would be messages when trinket CDs were up ... you might want to look into that, Mag.

Another option is to just macro your trinkets on to a commonly used spell (like Lifebloom). Sure, it may not be the most efficient way to use your trinkets, but at least you'll be using 'em:

/use 13
/use 14
/cast Lifebloom

Thereisnopeace
03-13-2008, 10:28 AM
Guilty. :frown:

Potions? I never forget those. *Magellan hugs her potions*

But Trinkets? I tend to use those only for boss fights. Why? I cannot explain. I should know better than that. Hell, I do know better than that! Yet, I_keep_forgetting_my_trinkets.

I'll keep you posted on my trinket popping training. :rolleyes:

I am the EXACT same. Potions? no problem. Trinkets? forget it. I think I will have to try the previously mentioned macros to see if that will help.

Zute
03-13-2008, 12:07 PM
I have no DpS toons at all, therefore, I've never used Omen Threat Meter, but should I install one? Does a full-time healer need Omen? I guess I wouldn't mind seeing the entire party's threat, if that is possible?
I run it. It is good to see when my own threat is getting out-of-hand too. Then I can preemptively heal myself.

But even better than omen is using a frame unit manager that ties in with omen. I have one called Grid and it can access the same threat library that omen has. So I can see not only who HAS aggro, but who is about to get aggro. If people paid close enough to the heals they're getting, they'll probably think I'm psychic. :D


Quite honestly, as silly as this sounds, I'm not even sure how it works. I mean, I understand the obvious aspects about it, but how does a player with too much DpS actually cut back on threat and still feasably contribute to a fight?
Most classes have ways of dumping threat. Mages can use invis, rogues can faint or vanish or simply stop using special attacks for a bit, kitties can cower, hunters can feign death. At the worst, they can simply stop attacking for a second. The best way to avoid the problem in the first place is WAITING before they start to attack and let the tank get aggro. I blogged about aggro awhile back for my old guild. Threat and You (http://www.solitudeguild.com/2008/01/threat-and-you.html)
More on Threat (http://www.solitudeguild.com/2008/02/more-on-threat.html)

Oh yes, another thing I see newbie raiders do a lot is non-tank meleers will stand in front of the mob and melee. Bad, bad, bad. In front they can get hit by cleave. Also it reduces their DPS because of parries and with a parry comes a riposte on the tank, which increases damage to the tank. Make sure your melees are in the back half of the mob to attack. That might lighten your healing load a bit.


Although, the group is only a month old (one run a week), we are clearing Illhoof with 2 healers - not smoothly or without frustration - but it's being done. We do have 3 healers slated for this group, but unfortunately it's not always possible to have all three of us run. When all three of us are present, needless to say, it's a more enjoyable raid. But, I will say, the lack of DpS is definately noticed.

So, I can't help but think we are going to need more DpS for the later bosses.

The DPS will improve as the gear improves (and as raid members learn to play better). I can't help but think you're going to have issues once you get to Prince and the dragons. But I have to give you credit to be a newish Kara group and doing this well with only two healers. You both must be very good! I remember trying Curator with 2 healers back when I was first doing Kara, it was pretty much not going to happen.

Magellan19
03-13-2008, 12:40 PM
I can't help but think you're going to have issues once you get to Prince and the dragons.

I am also a "part-time" healer for another group which now has Kara on farm, so I know what's ahead. Prince? Pretty straight forward, but the Dragons? Oh my....that's a delicate dance. NOT looking forward to that.

My other group runs Kara with only 2 healers (myself and a priest) plus, our Pally tank would throw on his healing set for some bosses, Shade for example. This obviously helped. But we all started out very well geared - PLUS the group always had the same members running.

I find it very very difficult with this new group to have to adapt to different players being in on the raid week after week. Unfortunately, though, this cannot be avoided.

I remember trying Curator with 2 healers back when I was first doing Kara, it was pretty much not going to happen.

Ya..honesly, I'm not sure how we downed him - on the second try, no less. And with a PuG healer to stand in. Sometimes you just get lucky. :rolleyes: