View Full Forums : [Bear] Pulling with somethig other than FFF...
04-25-2008, 03:45 PM
Honestly, when tanking, how often do you pull with something other than FFF? I just hate starting a fight with almost no rage, so I've been stuck in the Furor-->Enrage-->FFF pulling technique. But I'm beginning to think on Heroic trash when I have to tank 2-3 mobs, I ought to be using something else. I've read numerous pulling articles so I know what can be done (with Wrath, Starfire, Hurricane, etc.), I've just been too afraid of starting combat with just 10 rage and mobs already in my face.
Make me a better bear...Or at least a more confident bear.
04-25-2008, 04:53 PM
When pulling mobs without any saved up rage, I do the following-
Self regrowth and rejuv (sometimes)
Cast Wrath on second dps target (or the mob to be sheeped)
If there is another loose mob I toss moonfire on it
start backing up
switch to first dps target and moonfire
Mangle, Maul etc. on first dps target
This gets some initial agro on up to three targets. I dont usully have problems with loosing agro in the beginning. The real tricky part can bet getting into bear form fast enough.
04-25-2008, 05:04 PM
So, you must have to remind everyone to stand back since you are going to be pulling the mobs back quite a distance, right?
04-25-2008, 05:19 PM
I stand at max range for Wrath. Your party will probably hang out where you are. Use the time Wrath travels to the first mob to switch targets and cast Moonfire. If you time it right Wrath and Moonfire can hit at the same time.
As far as backing up, that depends on the pull and how many mobs you are trying to tag. If tagging a bunch it is good to back and give yourself time to get into Bear form. It is possible to tag maybe four mobs in a pull using moonfire spam. That is good for an AoE situation.
04-26-2008, 10:54 AM
yeah i try to pull at max distance and make sure the others know i am pull a secondary target.
upto now in heroics i use moonfire and seems to be ok and sometimes but not always i use a hot on myself first.
04-26-2008, 05:45 PM
any idea where would be a good place to practice this? Some place where 2-4 mobs are close together. I guess maybe one of the SM instances?
04-26-2008, 06:51 PM
Do a regular ramps run. People looking for a tank all the time.
04-28-2008, 06:15 AM
Silleh bear :> Your aggro is legendary. Only having 10 rage is no big deal. Just blow enrage while they're hitting you, you'll be spamming mangle and swipe in no time.
04-28-2008, 09:27 AM
Silleh bear :> Your aggro is legendary. Only having 10 rage is no big deal. Just blow enrage while they're hitting you, you'll be spamming mangle and swipe in no time.That all works well on paper, but the timing is difficult. Shift-->mobs in my face-->start auto attack somehow-->enrage-->one swipe maybe before DPS starts in.
The most difficult aspect of bear tanking for me is dealing with the slow attack speed and longer Global cooldown. You get so spoiled in cat form where on an initial "pull" of a questing mob you can't mash keys fast enough in order to dump the energy (and it is worst if OoC procs). In bear form it is like someone tied a couple of large rocks around your ankles and expects you to sprint. And if you stumble once in the first 20 meters, someone dies.
Most of time I'm tanking I'm staring directly at my cluster of primary attacks (Mangle, Swipe and Lacerate) so I don't miss a cooldown. So much so that I have often found myself standing there mashing buttons and didn't realize the mobs have been pulled off me already.
04-28-2008, 11:59 AM
I would suggest ArcHUD for showing your rage in a location near where your toon is on the screen. That said I should probably change the color of of the bar as red gets lost - at least for me. Anway, is a thought.
One of the best mods though is called debuff filter. I originally downloaded this for my shadow priest and have used it now on all my toons. Unlike a mod like DoTimer that tracks cooldowns this mod can track what buffs/debuffs are on toon or mob you are targetting and you can move the separate frame wherever you want them on the screen and how much longer before it falls off. It is also smart/configurable to show or not show something based on whether or not you applied it. At any rate this mod might make it easier to take your eyes off your buttons.
04-28-2008, 12:32 PM
Not sure I see how a debuff tracker would help all that much. FWIW, my pitbull addon is configured to only show debuffs that I "put" on the mob. That is more for Kitty DPS than tanking. I don't pay all that much attention to debuffs on tanked mobs. Except maybe to re-apply FFF at some point in the middle of a boss fight.
I've thought about using a HUD type addon, but for the most part, I find rage is only an issue for the first few seconds of a fight. And that part of the fight is really "scripted" as far as the tank is concerned. I just find reading/doing the script a bit difficult.:D
Once the fight has progressed at least 10-15 seconds, things seem to settle down quite a bit. It is those 10-15 seconds (of a multi-mob pull) that I find the most difficult.
04-28-2008, 01:39 PM
That all works well on paper, but the timing is difficult. Shift-->mobs in my face-->start auto attack somehow-->enrage-->one swipe maybe before DPS starts in.
I presume your dps are focusing their attacks on one mob?
If not, tell them to. Whap a skull on the mob you want them to kill first/next. If they pull aggro, just taunt it then spam some more attacks.
If dps are consistently pulling aggro, there can come a time when no amount of bear skill is enough and you just need to yell at them to give you more aggro time.
04-28-2008, 02:47 PM
I mark targets. And I think DPS is doing their part by attacking the skull only.
I find it is the 2nd and/or 3rd targets that most likely get pulled (probably by the healer or some idiot chain lightening shammy [those guys should be shot on site]). I'm guessing the 2-3 swipes I get in during those first few second aren't enough to hold them during that first blast of healing (maybe I should pop my dodge trinkets?!?!). This doesn't happen all the time. But when it does, I feel like a stupid bear.
This is part of the reason why I think I really need to work on using my Balance spells when pulling. To help build a bit more of a threat buffer on the 2nd and 3rd targets.
Assume I have to deal with 3 mobs (the rest are CC'd). Here's what I do today (A=Pri, B=Sec, C=3rd)
Wait a tick or two
Mash Mangle until I land a hit on A
Step over to C (bringing A and B)
At this point I may send a Maul to A, otherwise I keep mashing SwipeX3 and Mangle.
Once A is dead, I target B. Mangle, Lacerate, mouseover lacerate C, Maul B, etc. If I make it this far, I'm usually in good shape.
I use swipe instead of tab (or mouseover) lacerate initially as I have read that SwipeX3 generates more threat (per second) than 3 lacerates. Plus I never have to switch off my primary target which allows my white, mangles and mauls (if I use them) to land on the primary target.
When it does happen, it seems to be B or C that run off before I land the 2nd Mangle on A. So, some extra threat on them, via Balance spells, might be the answer. I'd probably use warth and moonfire on B and C to solve this issue.
04-28-2008, 03:51 PM
Loosing aggro that soon points to healing aggro to me since DPS generally at least know to target the skull (or whatever) and you don't seem to be losing that one right off. Maybe ask your healer to hold off on healing you just for a bit. If they are a druid maybe have them cast a single lifebloom just before the pull and have it bloom in order for you to get the healing aggro; same thing with priests and prayer of mending. At any rate if they can hold off just a bit on healing you it might make a difference. Understand that is very counter intuitive to most healers as they generally take a level of pride in keeping their tanks at 100% health vs say 80%. While it might not be the best thing I tend to hit my mangle/start auto attack button on the skull and then hit the rawr debuff thing (drawing a blank) if there are several. While it isn't a whole lot of threat it is *something* that pisses off the mobs around me. As you say though those first few second are key. After the fact see if you can't figure out who the mob went to I guess.
I did read an interesting thing once on tankspot where instead of charging in the suggestion was to face pull and then do whatever version of the above AE debuff they had. This did a couple things. Primarily it pulled the melee mobs away from the casters and then allowed them to debuff and piss off the melee mobs. The other thing that was suggested was to mark the appropriate mobs for the kill order (ie casters first) what was mentioned was not really trying to tank those caster mobs - especially if they are the type that will typically start casting before moving. While you have been doing this longer than I, and in truth I haven't tanked too many heroics yet, this rule of thumb has served me well thus far. The caster's intial aggro is on me but my ranged DPS is usually strong enough to wipe them out fast enough for them to not take a whole lot of damage before that mob goes down. YMMV and I only mention this because it might play a part in what your A, B, and C mobs are especially if that means a lot of running around.
04-28-2008, 04:41 PM
Your last point is execellent. In fact I do that quite often (learned from watching my guild's super tank). In the case where there are more than 3 mobs to pull and not enough CC, he would put the skull on a caster mob and tell the rest of the group "im not gonna touch that guy, you guys kill it!". He'd then pick-up the melee mobs, and have them all to himself for a few seconds (except for healing agro).
This is how I tank the 5-6 mob pulls in MgT. I tell the group, I'm not gonna deal with the imp and/or some caster mob Z. You guys kill the imp and mob Z before you start working my mobs. It works quite well.
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