I'm not feeling to warm and fuzzy at this point about the direction Blizz is taking bear tanking. It looks to me like our tanking ability relative to the other tanking classes is taking a serious hit. Please tell me I'm missing something :/.

Oiy

They recently (Monday?) said there are going to be major changes to the feral tree. I suspect we will hear about it soon as the beta servers are down for maintenance.

Use http://blue.mmo-champion.com/ to track, well, blue posts.

Yeah they are working on Bear tanking, but unlike in our current iteration if you spec into it, your DPS will take a hit, but your tanking should be almost on par with a Warrior/Pally etc. They haven't released anything on what they are doing yet though. Its gotten better though. My threat was all FUBARd when I first got in there now its pretty decent. i'm not having the issues I did with tanking and having people pulling threat all the time. So while we may not shine, we do just fine.

They've said several times over and over. In WotLK, any guild should be able to do ANY raid with ANY tank.

They've said several times over and over. In WotLK, any guild should be able to do ANY raid with ANY tank.That seems to the theme of LK, any class will do the job. Any healer. Any DPS. They don't want certain classes to have a huge benefit over other class WRT raiding. That's why just about every dps now has a CC, some sort of raid wide buff, etc. Every healer has an aoe heal, instant heal, etc.

They want you to bring your friends to a raid, not player X because he has the spec you need to "win" the fight.

Yeah. So the only concern I have is that they may dumb down raiding a bit too much. I like the concept, but just because I like Joe and he's my friend doesn't make Joe a good player.

I won't judge it too much till I get my hands on Naxx though.

Just because they allow more classes/spec to "work" on a particular encounter doesn't mean it will be dumbed down. The point is to make more specs viable. Too many encounters today are such that if you don't have class/spec X you can't do the run. That's it just stupid design for an MMO. Now they want it such that as long as you have X, Y or Z you can do the run. Sure, spec A, B or C won't do, but at least you have 3 specs to pick from rather than just 1.

This has nothing to do with skill. That, I hope, is still a requirement.

Here's the blue post that mentions this subject...

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/9023691546-raid-stacking-in-wrath-of-the-lich-king.html

Here's the meat of the quoteSome changes you're going to see:

1) Ease and flexibility in getting all of the major buffs in the group, while still having a few spare slots to take the people you want to take.
2) More parity in which classes can raid. While it's probably not realistic to get 2.5 of every class in a 25-player raid, we can get a lot closer than we are today.
3) More overlap in buffs and debuffs and very few unique buffs. If you can't get player X to bring the melee haste buff, maybe you can get player Y.
4) No two classes should have the same set of buffs. This is to make sure that one class can't completely replace another. If you have two players both bringing melee haste, there is a good chance one of them also brings something else you need. Again, the goal is flexibility.

A few examples:

1) To get a spell damage vulnerability debuff on a boss, you can bring a a warlock for Curse of Elements or a death knight for Ebon Plague. They don't stack, but both classes also bring additional benefits in case you want to run with both. The lock brings Curse of Recklesness, Demonic Pact, Curse of Weakness, Blood Pact and Fel Intelligence (depending on spec). The death knight brings Abomination's Might, Improved Icy Talons, various Auras, and a new Str + Agi buff you haven't seen yet (again depending on spec).
2) To get a 5% melee crit bonus, you can bring a Feral druid for Leader of the Pack or a Fury warrior for Rampage.
3) While having a mana battery feels essential in many cases, you can now bring a Shadow priest, Retribution paladin or Survival hunter to fill the role.
4) You can improve health of the entire raid with Commanding Shout or Blood Pact. You don't need both, so perhaps the warrior can Battle Shout or the lock can bring out another pet instead.

I want to stress that none of this is set in stone. A change like this is going to take some iteration until it feels right. While we are pretty happy with the plan, it is certainly possible that some class or spec is going to be hurt by a change more than we anticipated. We don't want to hurt anyone's viability while soloing, in small groups, or in PvP with this change. We aren't trying to slap anyone in the face -- we're trying to make the game more fun.

The goal is to get more people into raids and to let you bring the people you want. Ultimately, that should benefit everyone. Please try and keep that in mind as you start to see the changes.

It certainly is refreshing to see them take this stance, but I won't believe it until I actually see it :)

Sounds pretty good, actually. Having suffered through a few months of being in lfg in Boomkin spec, I like the idea of them doing away with 'undesirable' classes.

Do I understand correctly that they're looking to make us like Warrior and Paladins in that if we are tank spec we are mostly useless in any other capacity? I love playing the OT role where I can tank when needed but then bring some useful dps to the raid instead of being dead weight.

Edit:Just read on the mmo-champion Blue tracker that powershifting will be prevented in the xpac through a change in the Furor mechanic. I'm still trying to catch up on all the xpac news, but given that they are homogenizing tanking capabilities across classes, and eliminating the ability of druids to tank and dps with one spec, are they also homogenizing dps capabilities? Meaning if I spec for kitty dps, will I do rogue/mage level dps?

Edit2: Hopeful answer to my own question: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/2/8537784293-feral-concerns-in-wotlk.html

We still have way more flexibility than your average rogue class. I would say we'll do NEAR rogue DPS, but probably always below it unless they do some serious revamping of the feral tree to make it almost impossible to spec DPS and Tank.

There is still a lot that needs to be added to the Xpac. Both Druids and Rogues are still "not done". Which doesn't surprise me given Blizzard wants us to wear the same gear, yet somehow we have to be able to tank it in as well as DPS. There is also talk that we may share weapons with DKs. Which means there be even more changes in store for us (Feral Druids).

Plus with the changes to Furor it is now a nearly useless talent for PvE, so I would expect changes in the top third of the resto tree as well.

There is also talk that we may share weapons with DKs. Which means there be even more changes in store for us (Feral Druids).


The only way this is happening is if we get to use 2h swords and axes, which is pretty doubtful.

Yes, they are trying to homogenize a lot of stats to make gear as useful for as many classes as they can so there is less "waste", but weapons is what is going to differentiate between a rogue sword, a warrior sword, a dk sword.

We're not going to share weapons with a class that wants to stack PARRY to tank =P

Well that and we rely on our druid weapons just to get the AP to be competitive. Unless they are going to amp the base damage on our claws we are going to be seriously screwed if they don't give us weapons with MONSTER AP in them.

This may be a somewhat a silly question, but wouldn't it be easier to make drops dependent on group or raid makeup to eliminate waste? That way they wouldn't have to throw away all the develepment work they put into the different combat mechanics, and they could maintain more of the uniqueness of each class.

Also, it will prevent a scenario where 10 toons in a 25 man raid are all rolling on the same items. :/ Gawd, that will make pugging raids for drops an exercise in futility.

The logic involved in that probably wouldn't work. They generate the entire loot table the second you step foot in the raid instance. So lets assume Joe rogue is in the raid group and then he leaves... the loot table takes Joe into account and now he's out of the raid. Its kind of a pain..

the loot table takes Joe into account and now he's out of the raid. Its kind of a pain..It would still be better than it is today.

That said, I like the random drops. It makes folks have a desire to run the instance multiple times for a longer period of time, which I think is Blizzard's goal. Particularly in 5-mans, where an instance may only have 1 item of any value for class X.

In a way, tokens help to eliminate some waste for raid level instances.

They way everyone seems to like the whole badge, token, sunwell mechanism, I certainly think Blizzard will continue using a similar means to had out gear.

I have to admit I dislike farming random drops for a long period of time, it reminds me too much of the awful parts of EQ1. DST anyone? It's too bad most badge gear is fairly worthless for bear tanks.

What I have taken from the patch notes and others' comments thus far is that each different tanking class will have one or two tanking scenarios they will excel in, one or two scenarios in which they do pretty well, and a few scenarios that will be very challenging.

Druids appear to do best tanking bosses that don't hit that hard, but have a very high attack speed. For example, a bear tank would be the best possible choice of tank in a scenario like Prince Malchezzar (Karazhan) under the new changes in WotLK.

The secondary scenario where druids do pretty good but are not the best, is off-tanking hateful strike type abilities in a rage-starved environment. For example, being the secondary tank on Gruul. Certain specs of death knight will apparently be slightly better than druids at this.

Tanking multiple mobs will become a lot more challenging in WotLK, with the change to the Feral Instinct talent (it now increases the damage done by Swipe, instead of increasing all aggro in bear form by a flat amount). Paladins and Death Knights will be much better at tanking multiple mobs than us druids.


Also, druid tanks will continue to have the best dps of any type of tank in the game.


DISCLAIMER: Obviously the expo is not out yet and this could all change. Also I could be totally wrong; that has happened before as well :P



-Annikk

The latest blue notes indicated that warriors might surpass us in overall Armor in the expansion... gone might be the days of having 75% damage mitigation. What really sucks is itemization for us is going to rely heavily on using trinkets, rings and neck pieces to maximize our armor value in exchange for sacrificing other stats... which could suck.. on a bright note we should get way more dodge and should have crits coming out our ears.... so our threat should be top notch.

You two are scaring me a bit. I have been keeping up on the reading lately and I took Ghostcrawler's posts in particluar to mean that the gaps between the tanking classes were going to shrink. Now it sounds like I was misinterpreting that information.

If we fall farther behind paladins as aoe tanks than we (and warriors) already are, I'd better get cracking on that pally alt.

Pally aoe tanking has already made dps'er lazy and sloppy for non-aoe tanks. If that particular gap widens, and the gap between us and warriors for raid boss mob tanking widens, and we have DK's to compete with for raid spots...I dunno, that makes me sad.

Makes it sound like I'll need to spec Oiysters full kitty dps and level up an alt if I want to MT for my guild.

Feral bear-specialised druids will have a place in basically any 25 man raid and will be more than adequate as 10man tanks too, in WotLK. I wouldn't worry too much :>


-Annikk

Yep we just have to dedicate more of our DPS talents to Tanking. its not a bad thing... we still get to be one of the most versatile classes in the game... it just means we won't do quite as much damage as a rogue, but we should be able to tank as well as any other tanking class.

If we fall farther behind paladins as aoe tanks than we (and warriors) already are, I'd better get cracking on that pally alt.FWIW, Swipe now hits 4 targets and with one of the new glyphs it will hit 5. And don't forget you have your own CC now. I suspect that bears will often pull with roots.

Question - does anyone know the TPS value of swipe vs. the TPS value of consecrate? That's the real issue IMO. If we can't generate similar threat on non-primary targets to what a paladin produces, then 4 or 5 target swipe is nice but isn't 'all that'.

It's the threat that pallies can generate on the X, square, moon, diamond and triangle with a single button push that makes them the tank of choice for five mans.

Ok there are lots more issues for multi mob tanking with Pally's that we can't match. Pally's will ALWAYS be the best at multi mob tanking. They generate threat when they block. They generate threat from their concecrate too. Plus some other judgements etc... Its just the reality of Pally's. That being said though....Feral druids will be a lot better at multimob tanking than we used to be. Lets just wait and see how it goes.

I guess what has me worried is the question of whether or not they will follow through on the vision that GC has articulated. The reason I question it is, for example, that the cat dps scaling problem has been known for nearly as long and TBC has been out, and it's never been fixed. Acknowledged, but never fixed. And now Sunwell rogues do 3k dps compared to Sunwell kitties doing 2k dps.

I want to believe her, I really do.

For now I'll assume we won't quite match rogues, but that they will tweak us. Lets just give them a chance... we won't really see till they are done messing with our stats. The biggest problem that most druids suffer is our base damage on our claws. Personally I think they could fix 99% of druids problems if they'd let our base claw damage come from our weapons. I mean that would put us on par with Rogues.

Agreed, Allahanastar. The other thing I would like to see is the threat on our swipes NOT be split among the mobs that it hits. That would go a long way to closing the aoe threat generation gap between us and pallies. If they start splitting the threat four or five ways instead of three will actually be going BACKWARD in our aoe tanking ability.

If they start splitting the threat four or five ways instead of three will actually be going BACKWARD in our aoe tanking ability.But doesn't swipe do quite a bit more damage in LK? There is a talent to boost the damage output by 30%. Plus, I think, the base damage and/or AP component increased?!?!? And berserk is now on a 3m timer, so every other pull you can use mangle to hit 3 mobs at once!!!

Which brings us full circle to my original question: How does the threat generation per mob of swipe on non-primary targets compare to what a pally can generate on non-primary targets, because that is why they are the tank of choice for five-mans?

From Ghostcrawler's posts on the beta forums (thanks again Felkan, for the link), a druid (and a warrior) should be able to tank heroic Shattered Halls with similar (but not equal) ease and efficiency to how a paladin can do it. That is simply not possible without the ability to generate similar threat on many many non-primary targets.

AE tanking is stupid easy as a pally, i doubt we'd ever have it that good. But a buff'd swipe and/or thorns would help considerably.

Don't forget we have our own CC and we can use challenging roar every 3m. So, you could CC 1 mob swipe 4 (or 5 with the glyph???). Use CR if they start to run a bit and/or Berserk to hit 3 of them with Mangle.

It will require more work than a pally, but it just might be do able. Though Pally's only need 1 hand to tank (http://img310.imageshack.us/img310/2584/paladins0gf.jpg).

R O F L

That link wins.

I hope Blizz is as serious about solving these sorts of imbalances when they come to light as GC makes it sound.

My experience in big corporations says it's fairly unlikely, unfortunately. Especially if all the accountants at Blizz play pallies and rogues. ;-)

I heard most of the Blizzard staff play warriors and warlocks. That could just be rumour, though..


-Annikk

I'm glad I'm a newbie. Because while this is all sort of scary sounding (who wants to be a big cuddly bear left on the sidelines?)...It's sort of exciting to a newbie in that hopeful, "Maybe everyone's reading too much into this, and we'll become uber tanks after all through some miraculous new gear or ability" sort of way.

Hopefully I'll get to 70 quickly so I can at least run some raids before WotLK comes out and everything gets crazy.

One of the positives though, is that all of the Death Knights start out at lvl 55, do they not? So we won't have THAT much competition for the first day or two...

Actually Destinae you are in the perfect spot. I sat there before the last expansion. When the new expansion comes out, the rules get rewritten. So instead of having years of tanking one way, you see the new way when you are relatively new to it.. thus you can learn the new techniques faster. I think currently Feral druids will be FANTASTIC tanks in the expansion. I have so much faith in it that I'm leveling a second druid so I can have a ranged DPS caster and a feral druid.

It's nice to hear that druid tanks are still great in the expansion. I was hearing some mixed things. =D

yeah i've been a bit concerned and am worried i'm not going to like it and will end up stopping playing as i've only 1 lvl 70 and no time nor the patience to level anytrhing else.

hence going to give oomkin spec a go....

LOL @ OOMkin

Yeah, I've been bouncing around the idea of going Resto. Our guild needs another resto druid and an off tank. My husband and I both have feral druids- so our issue becomes - who turns healer and who gets to keep on playing meat shield for our groups.

I've heard so many mixed things. Like nerfing the upper level raids and stuff. I can't decide if I should power level to get a chance to experience those as they are now, or just go in them "post-nerfing" so that I don't know what I'm missing.

i could never go Resto. its just not me.

i spent a long time raiding 40 mans pre-BC healing with my T1 and T2 although i was always feral :)

but i do like the look of oomkin as an alternative to tanking if WotLK does not turn to to be an improvement on now or fun.

Luckily rl is getting busier for me, so I don't have nearly so much time to worry about it atm. ;-)

I've got gear to play any druid spec, so if I need to level another tank it won't be the end of the world.

If you aren't within striking distance of 70 right now the odds of seeing raiding in BC are probably dwindling fast. I'm pretty much going to have to tell my wife that she's got no chance of raiding in BC as it is today. Once the new patch comes out, the effect is usually the same.... raiding just dies. People have a million things they'd rather do and with new specs and old specs not working quite right people just don't want to mess with it. So..... you can expect that a lot of people will be winding down the raid train soon.

Heh, already happening on my server...nearly all the high end raiding guilds have either broken up or are on hiatus.

And, agreed Alla, when patch 3.0 comes out it will change things alot and will prolly discourage alot of folks from raiding.

My guild is on a mad race to finally kill Illidan before WotLK hits. It's due out on November 13th - that means we have less than 2 months left to kill the remaining 2 bosses and finally face the bastard elf himself.

I will find Illidan. And I will bite him. Rawr.


-Annikk

GASP! Luckily I'm with a "helper guild" who I'm sure (with enough friendly requesting) will let me play in Kara with them.

I'm starting to resent WotLK and it's not even here yet.

You guys seriously don't think that us up-and-coming newer level 70's will want to run the current raids for gear since we won't even be able to touch any of the next batch for 10 levels?

/shudder.

And here I was, stressing over the talent trees...never even thought of the fact that all of you 70's are going to have to start leveling again and won't have time for raids anymore...sad...very sad for us lowbies rising up.

It is quite sad. The only thing I can say is to make sure you get positioned in a good raiding guild for WotLK and pursue goals in the expansion, making sure to hit them all this time around. You will still be able to come back and witness the level 70 content later, although at that time you will likely be level 80 and it will be very little challenge. That's not much of a consolation I guess, but do try not to get downheartened because of all that could have been.

Look to the bright future, form some new goals, and set about working towards them. :> The time is right to begin preparation for the expansion being released. Get ready to level up your professions again with mats for any recipe that will give you skillups. Do the same for first aid, cooking, fishing, etc. Get some elixirs ready to make levelling faster, and if you do get an opportunity to go to Karazhan, try to pick up some gear that will help you level in the expansion.

Get ready to burst into Northrend with all guns blazing. :>


-Annikk

Well, I'm hoping I can rely on the fact that my guild is a "helper" guild and generally they're willing to come back and run lower level stuff in order to help us gear up/level up to be able to run the "big kid" instances with them.

Here's to hoping!

I know some people would help, but heres the deal... I saw this exact same effect. Lets look at it this way....
Gear level of greens for drops at lvl 70 is about say... 90
Gear level of green quest rewards available at lvl 68 in Northrend... probably about 105

People will quickly tell you that its easier to go to outland and run stuff. It is a shame to miss some of the lvl 70 instances. Some of them were really well done, but a lot of people will feel like just focusing forward.

People very quickly don't want to go back and re run that stuff. Some people will to it for Nostalgia. Hell I guarantee we'll go back at lvl 80 and spank, Kara, Gruul, Mags, SSC, TK, BT, Mt. Hyjal and I really want to see Sunwell... something I can't do at lvl 70, but for people right after WotLK comes out.. they'll have one focus for a bit.

It leads to some really strange dilemmas for a lower level druid like myself.

Do I rush level and do my best to get good enough gear to see Kara before everyone moves on?

Do I try to get together a few level 70's who are willing to spend the time there in order to gear up as we move on into level 80?

Or...do I just crunch to level 80, forget about the level 70 instances for now and just come back to see them decimated at level 80?

I think I'll maybe try and talk to our guild leader or some of the officers about this situation. We have a few brand new level 70's, and a rather large handful of 60's that are coming up rather quickly. Maybe as a guild we can come to some sort of arrangement where it works out the best for all parties involved. Our guild is fabulous because most of the time they are willing to do stuff like this in order to get everyone on the same page.

I'll let you know how that conversation goes.

Let me give you my perspective.... Let me give you my history.

I got to level 60 exactly 2 months before the expansion for Burning Crusade came out. I got to attend exactly 1 Molten Core run and 1 Zul Gurub run and 1 AQ 40 run.

At the time I really got disappointed that I wouldn't get to see most of what the game had to offer at lvl 60. However I was reading all of this information on the new stuff and realized that almost nobody had thought about the changes. We had a lot of people who had full 8 piece Molten Core sets. So they wouldn't break up their sets. They were so convinced that their set bonuses were better than the gear they found they missed a ton of upgrades.

You are in a very good spot. You don't need the gear to go to Northrend. I've done the starter quests in Northrend. They don't require obscene amounts of gear. Will they be as easy as it is for a person running around in Kara gear??? No, but you get to see and experience the new gear right out of the gate. The starter content assumes you are wearing lvl 68 greens from Outland. The dungeons are assuming you are wearing greens. Nothing expects you to be wearing dungeon blues or purples.

You won't have the preconceived notions about what's good and bad. You'll just try the new gear and see how it functions. This is good from the perspective that we have to get used to stacking Rogue gear and seeing what their stats do for us. Plus upgrades you'll get in under an hour in Northrend should put you near on par with people who have spent over a year in Kara and beyond.

I don't want to devalue the experience of going to Kara, but enjoy the game. See what you want to see... Level 80 will hold things for you that you can't even dream of now. Pick a goal and work towards it.

I agree. The more I think about it, the happier this fuzzy little druid is. If I hit 70 fast enough, I'm sure I'll see some of Kara. If not, there's always the ability to come back to it at 80 and pound through it just to experience it.

I'll hold tight to my naivety and hit this with all four paws storming forward (Kind of like how I tank - which...I'll admit...is not always the best tactic...thank goodness for resto druids!)

I agree with Allahanastar. Don't worry about the lvl 70 content. In fact, you may find that once people hit lvl 80, they might run back and do a bit of the old stuff for fun (our Guild still runs MC, Nax, Oyxia, ZG, etc.).

I find the most important thing to do before running new content (like LK) is to study the various Faction rewards, group quests, etc. And to have some sort of plan for which items you want to get while leveling. During the early phases of LK, this isn't as important as everyone will run anything over and over, but after some time, few people seem to want to help you run group[5] quest in zone X, because to them it is easier "to run run instance ZZZ until YYY drops, it is better anyway".

Plus these mini-goals (get rep with faction Z or do group quest FFF), I think, make the game more enjoyable for a casual player.

My biggest fear about the Xpac is that Achievements will become some sort of soft ranking system in the game that becomes a means for others to pre-judge your performance/skill. "Dude you don't have 'Spanked the Monkey King' achievement, there's now way you can tank this 5-man. lol. sry.".

I tell you what - you didn't miss much raiding MC and BWL night after night after night.

Took so long to get geared in 40 mans with 5 or 6 of each class going after the same drops... And those instances were so long... AQ 20 and ZG were a lot of fun.

Don't worry about not hitting a lot of the 70 instances or the 60 instances for that matter. Just have fun. Don't stress out about doing everything before a certain time. Just enjoy your druid, and know that in about two months everyone will be starting from scratch again. All the incredible purple gear that we have will be replaced by greens again. And people will go back and re-run Kara and maybe SSC and TK and stuff for nostalgia once WotLK content is boring and on farm.

The one thing that you may want to spend some time doing however is leveling a profession (if you haven't already done so). It's a good idea, especially if you have a gathering profession (mining / herbing / skinning) to be able to gather in the zone you are questing in.

Oh yes. I'm working on Cooking/Fishing right now, but so far my Herbalism is 360, Alchemy is 305, and First Aid is 300. It makes me a happy druid. I got ported to Shat around lvl 56 and had a lvl 70 mage show me around (he's a friend IRL so, it's great!) But I trained up in Alchemy and Herbalism there. I just have to start collecting more recipes for Alchemy to get that to level a bit faster.

Alchemy is a godsend.

Wow, great work on the professions :)

I tell you what - you didn't miss much raiding MC and BWL night after night after night.

Took so long to get geared in 40 mans with 5 or 6 of each class going after the same drops... And those instances were so long... AQ 20 and ZG were a lot of fun.

omg yes !

how many million times did i run MC and BWL. i ended up with 8/8 T1 and 7/8 T2 and i was always feral ! lol.

i guess those places seemed long to start with when u spent hours wiping on bosses but surely its been the same for people in BC running the 25 mans ? ie the learning experience ?

i know by the end we cleared MC in 3 hrs and BWL in not a lot more. whereas when we started we could spend most of a 4 hr raid killing some trash and wiping on a boss ! lol. Esp that bloody Razorgore at the start of BWL.

AQ20 i loved. And it actually had some feral type items!! the boss where u had the 7/8 waves of mobs ? and the last one where u ran him around to certain points where things spawned to be clicked on or summat iirc ?? it was a long time ago. ZG was ok but i never got into ZG.

Some pretty hopeful posts by GC on bluetracker regarding the state of bear tanking.

My guild is on a mad race to finally kill Illidan before WotLK hits. It's due out on November 13th - that means we have less than 2 months left to kill the remaining 2 bosses and finally face the bastard elf himself.

I will find Illidan. And I will bite him. Rawr.

We killed the last 2 bosses last night and had a look at Illidan! :D And I bit him!!! w000t!!!! I'm so excited! :D


-Annikk

Good luck man. You guys are pushing hard. I expect you'll get to see him dead if you are working that hard on it.

Congrats, Annikk!

Someday I'll get there.

Can you provide a link for BlueTracker? When I search it, all I'm getting are really weird websites for hunting gear: ie, tree stands, guns etc.

Try blue.mmo-champion.com. That's one site with a decent blue tracker.

Excellent. I will check that out soon! Thank you Allahanastar!

Esp that bloody Razorgore at the start of BWL.

Man I hated that guy. Esp cause we had some people in the guild that couldn't for their lives figure out how to properly downrank heals (to not draw threat), how to kite in a circle, and how to use an orb. We wiped so many times....

AQ20 i loved. And it actually had some feral type items!! the boss where u had the 7/8 waves of mobs ? and the last one where u ran him around to certain points where things spawned to be clicked on or summat iirc ??

I still have my Thick Silithid Chestguard (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21467) and Boots of the Vanguard (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21493) in the bank :P I loved AQ20. Got to tank the whole thing and heal the whole thing.

I like http://blue.cardplace.com/ myself; however, it's been having issues recently and isn't working at the moment.

Well I'll be sure to check them both out. (Cardplace I'll check out later on).

Man I hated that guy. Esp cause we had some people in the guild that couldn't for their lives figure out how to properly downrank heals (to not draw threat), how to kite in a circle, and how to use an orb. We wiped so many times....



I still have my Thick Silithid Chestguard (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21467) and Boots of the Vanguard (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21493) in the bank :P I loved AQ20. Got to tank the whole thing and heal the whole thing.
yeah AQ20 was a challenge if people did not listen.

and ofc BWL was a real challenge at the time for guilds. funny but it got easier after Razorgore which was a manic nitemare of a boss fight introduction to BWL after you had merrily cleared MC !

hehe i still have a couple of items from AQ20. a thick sithilid belt i think ? i'll check !