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Destinae
10-21-2008, 02:16 PM
But doesn't that mean...gasp... that I'd have to PvP for the honor? :( I hate PvP. I hate it like I hate rogues that one shot me!

I'm pretty much lost as far as stats go. I believe I had around 9k health and just over 11k armor in bear form when I tanked HH last night.

I'm going to hit Ramps to hope for that ring to drop in the chest after the dragon boss. I'll farm for that and there are a few others. Would the Kara gear be = to or better than the starter PvP set?

Allahanastar
10-21-2008, 02:54 PM
Kara gear is probably better than the starter PVP stuff. If you do BG, then the season 2 stuff might be better. There are two rings you can look for. The one is on Ramparts. The other one drops in Old Hillsbrad.

Destinae
10-21-2008, 03:01 PM
I believe there is rep to be had there too. I'll steal people to run there.

I'm sure I can get groups for ramps. There are lots of new level 60's and such coming up that would love a big old bear to tank them through. Old Hillsbrad, I don't really know many that run it anymore. I'm sure I can get a group together though. Des has her ways. (/flirt) hehe

Claritondeus
10-21-2008, 03:04 PM
Both Ramps and Old Hillsbrad are pretty easy on Heroic also, so thats an option.

The ring from OHB is a better bet than the one from Ramps if you can get it to drop.

Destinae
10-21-2008, 03:25 PM
Clari, is the one from OHB Unique?

The one from ramps is not, so technically, if you ran back to back reg Ramps and it dropped twice, and by some miracle you were the one to get it, you could wear two of the exact same ring from Ramps.

We hit HH and I ended up with the Ring of Ghoulish Delight. The stam was a nice bonus.

Claritondeus
10-21-2008, 06:26 PM
Nope, not unique.

Ramparts ring: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24151
OHB ring: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27436

You will get the Violet Signet: http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10732 after your first Kara run (just requires Friendly).

The mobs HP and Damage have been reduced by 30% in Kara, so you should be just fine to tank it in your current gear.

I'd pick up the Dragonhide Robe (pvp starter set - req Honor Hold Honored: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35360) over the Heavy Clefthoof chest. It has more armor and more agil at the cost of 2 stam.

Same with the Dragonhide Legs (pvp starter set - req Cenarion Expedition Honored: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35358) over the Heavy Clefthoof legs. It has more armor and agi, at the cost of 3 stam.

Kara gear is going to be better than the PvP starter set / Clefthoof stuff, and you will be able to pick up pieces pretty quickly.

If you are going into Kara as a tank for the first time, bring an offtank with you (feral druids are awesome at this) to help with the multi pulls, and just in case something gets by you.

Other than that, have fun, and good luck :)

Destinae
10-22-2008, 09:23 AM
I believe I'm going as OT. Our guild has a warrior who acts as Main Tank. At least for the first run I know I'm OT. Subsequent runs might change though, if he's willing to put the fate of our raid in my hands (gulp!).

I can't wait. We're going Saturday night! I think I'm honored with those factions. I'll have to check and see if I can get my hands on that gear.

Allahanastar
10-22-2008, 09:59 AM
Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Kara can be fun. Its very much EZ Mode though now.... I hate to say that but its extremely true.

Solarflash
10-22-2008, 01:01 PM
First off, don't discount the dodge added to the clefthoof set! I know the pvp stuff has more armor, but in my clefthoof and random badge gear I have gotten, I sit at roughly 40% dodge in bear without trinkets and CD's popped. With my "Oh poo" macro cracked (badge of tend, Moroes pocket) I am at ~60% dodge which is huge!!!

Also, be warry of too much mitigation through armor right now. If you midigate via dodge, you get rage back, you migate through armor and there is no rage return. Since 3.0 patch, bears do need to be more conciencous about rage on trash pulls. At about 20k armor buffed in bear, I am often fighting to hold kara mobs on empty because they aren't hitting me hard enough.

Destinae
10-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Alright, despite my research, I'm not finding the information I'm looking for :(

Now that we don't need defense, I had assumed the stat priority was Armor, Stam/Dodge, Agi, Strength for bear.

But...

Does anyone know what stat goals we should be aiming for?

In bear I'm at around 18% dodge, but I don't know how much higher that should be. How much Agi should I have? How much stam?

That's the info I'm looking for. I miss the Pre-Patch numbers "you need 415 Def, 192 Hit"...now I have no idea.

I assume that the hit rating and expertise should still be the same, but I'm not entirely sure.

Anyone have figures on what the stats should look like to turn Ms. Des into an awesome bear tank that doesn't suck the mana out of healers?

And Solar, your post was helpful. I had heard that once previously. I'm still only around 11,760 in Bear for armor right now, but that's why I asked about the other stats. I'm trying to get a good balance for bear and I'm just not finding it...

(And after the $ forked over for mats/pieces of the Heavy Clefthoof Set recently, I'm not really wanting to give them up so soon...)

skwidrific
10-22-2008, 01:13 PM
at this point, des, i'd be inclined to say that it doesn't really matter all that much...

every mob and boss for every instance and raid has been nerfed into ez mode, so if you're having any issues, tell the pew-pewers to step up their game...

if the healers are experienced with kara pre-patch and worth anything, you probably won't even see below 50% health...

as far as main tanking kara goes, relax... I've said it before and i'll say it again: Druids make THE perfect off-tank... run through it a couple times, learn the pulls, and enjoy the lootz that drop in the meantime.

it's gonna be fun :)

Solarflash
10-22-2008, 01:17 PM
Are you sure you were in bear form when you checked your dodge? I think with your base stats and the dodge from the clefthoof set you should be higher than 18%?

Anyway, my personal preference is stacking agi right now. It gives the dodge you need plus the rage from extra crits.

Given that your armor seems a bit low, I would reccomend making sure you have your gear enchanted (mats are quite inexpensive now) if you have a friendly enchanter in guild and through some gems, even greens or blues in slots where you have gaps.

Some really easy upgrades I found for my bear tank are Merc Glad shoulders (~11k honor and 20 AB marks I think) I found my biggest weakness was a head piece, which is kinda tough to get unless you know someone who can craft the "Styin' Purple Hat". I just had a junky green until I picked up the T4 helm last night off prince actually! :)

Also, there is a good tanking cloak in mech (Reg) and some nice gloves in Arc(Reg) Check the AH for the Braxix Slumber Staff, it will give you about 3k armor in one item. You will likely lose some DPS, but its the best pre-epic staff you can get to tank with. (Heroic Bot has the starter epic-tanking staff before you get the rep for the EarthWarden, If you can get some guildies to run you through!!! Its Awesome)

Destinae
10-22-2008, 01:28 PM
I have my staff of slumber. I got that as soon as I could find one. And actually, I'm not 100% sure I was in bear or not. I thought I was, but now I wonder...

I'll see what I can do about the Head piece. That is my biggest weakness right now, along with bracers, gloves, etc. I have the Perfectly Balanced Cape with +120 Armor thanks to one of our Guild officers. She gemmed me up too.

<a href="http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Durotan&n=Destinae">This is my current gear</a>...Hopefully you'll be able to check it out while I'm still wearing it...

I know my gear needs help. I'm definitely working on it. It's been slow going recently as I'm in a bit of a bind with gold right now. And yes, I know my Talents leave a bit to be desired. I'm going to respec when next week's patch comes out. I don't have any glyphs currently. Finding useful ones on my server has been difficult.

I don't even know if I could stomach grinding 11k worth of honor and 20 AB marks. I loathe PvP...but if that's what a bear's gotta do...

Claritondeus
10-22-2008, 01:35 PM
Are you sure you were in bear form when you checked your dodge? I think with your base stats and the dodge from the clefthoof set you should be higher than 18%?

I was thinking this too. Dropping into direbear in lv 70 greens should give you more that 18% iirc.

Anyway, my personal preference is stacking agi right now. It gives the dodge you need plus the rage from extra crits.

Thats the reason I was also recommending the PvP starter gear. The chest has 18agi and (as opposed to 15 dodge), as well as some strength to go along with the higher ac. The legs have 22 agi (as opposed to 18 dodge) as well as some str and the higher ac. This will equal a slightly lower dodge rate, but the ac, crit and ap that it will provide will more than make up for it IMO.

Dest isn't going to be at the point where her mitigation / avoidance is so high that she won't be getting hit by kara mobs. That only happens when you are severly outgearing the instance, i.e. full T2 warrior tanking reg ramparts, or full T5 / T6 druid tanking Kara.

Dest - go in as an offtank. A large majority of the time you will be spending as a kitty dps'ing, as there isn't too much of a need for an offtank on most normal pulls (anymore). As skwid said, it'll be a great learning experience to learn what to do on different bosses, etc. And you'll get some free purples :P

"Styin' Purple Hat"

Heh one of the first things I got on my Druid when I hit 70. That thing's PIMPIN!

*edit: just saw that you had your staff already :P

Solarflash
10-22-2008, 01:38 PM
Also, I forgot to mention about your Def rating. Given that you have the Clefthoof set, you can probably save 1 point in SotF and just got 2/3 there. You need your total def % to be 6%. The Clefthoof set should give you around 2%, thus saving you at least 1 point to spend elsewhere.

Claritondeus
10-22-2008, 01:42 PM
This is my current gear (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Durotan&n=Destinae)...Hopefully you'll be able to check it out while I'm still wearing it...

Armory says your dodge is 18.6% while in caster form. That should more or less double in bear form :)

I don't even know if I could stomach grinding 11k worth of honor and 20 AB marks. I loathe PvP...but if that's what a bear's gotta do...

Honestly, it's not as bad as you think. The amount of honor that people get in BG's now has been increased so it will go a lot quicker.

Biggest advice for AB is to stay with a group. Druids are really good at burst damage, so stealth around with a group, find the target they are focusing on and stealth up and finish them off, then sprint away and come back for more. The easiest way to get honor is AV, which is basically just a PvE race to Drekk (horde boss). If alliance is losing, or people are being dumb, just start the game and stealth around places while watching tv, and rack up your 20 tokens. (this is called afk farming, and is frowned upon, but hey, it gets you the gear, and you don't have to do anything.... hence welfare epics).

And the shoulders look cool. It's worth it IMO to 'suffer through' the grind to pick up the S2 shoulders (that have little flowers growing out of them :) )

Destinae
10-22-2008, 01:47 PM
It's so confusing!

WoW math: 1+1 = .0436% ?!?!

I'll see if I can grab the Purple hat (thank goodness for "hide helm" option). You should see the atrocity she's got on her head now /cower!

Like I said, I'm going to save the gold to respec because we're getting Talents refunded to us again this coming week with the new patch.

Are there no base stats to aim for though? Hit Rating? Expertise? Agility? This is where I get confused. I can wrap my little mind around "need more armor" and "need X amount of this stat"...I'm feeling so stupid.

If I knew what the goal was, I could get there. "Oh I need to be at 40% dodge? No problem" I just have trouble knowing what to do gearwise and stat wise when it seems like "anything goes".

Oiysters
10-22-2008, 01:48 PM
Dest, the answer is that we really don't know yet. Once a bunch of us have hit 80 and raided Naxx a few times consensus numbers will start to emerge.

You're lucky right now in that you have complete freedom to upgrade with abandon! Grab as much t4 level gear and badge gear as you can get your hands on. Get your Earthwarden.

My personal preference is to keep my dodge at 40%, minimum, and then stack stam from there as high as possible. Armor comes with gear upgrades and is difficult to stack in any meaningful way beyond getting higher item level gear. So Dest, just for you, I give you "Oiyster's guide to bear tank stats for new 70's" (lol):

1. Gem and enchant your gear. "Bad" gear can be made good enough with gems and enchants. OT's can turn into MT's with...well, you get the idea.

2. Raise dodge to 40% unbuffed first thing. Gem and enchant your gear for agility until you reach this goal, for the reasons Solar mentioned above. Plus, with crushing blows removed from the game you will be so easy to heal. ;-)

3. Once you hit 40% dodge unbuffed, fill any remaining sockets with stam gems and enchant any unenchanted items with stamina.

4. Enjoy the next three weeks of EZ mode and pwn face!

Claritondeus
10-22-2008, 02:10 PM
When you get your S2 shoulders (or kara shoulders), you can throw a 13 dodge rating Aldor enchant on them (you're honored so you can get that whenever).

When you get the Stylin Purple Hat (or your T4 helm), you can throw the +16def +17dodge enchant on it (Keepers of Time Revered).

The Stylin Purple Hat (aside from looking hot :P) has 48 agi on it, which will help bigtime with your dodge.

Should be pretty easy to get your dodge up to par with just those items and some Agi gems.

Destinae
10-22-2008, 03:07 PM
+48 Agi? /drool!

Thank you for the "Gearing the Feral Tank For Dummies Guide." Having at least some sort of guideline to run with helps, especially for simple druids like myself who fail...correction EPIC FAIL...at math.

I'll try and find a Stylin' Purple Hat tonight if possible. Maybe I can stop hiding my helm. That'd be a blessing for sure.

I've already begun stacking Stam with SSoE's (thanks to a guild mate). So I'll work on enchants and possibly replacing the gems with Agi gems and see where we can go from there.

I was planning on packing my bags and moving into Coilfang for awhile...as I'm not entirely sure how else to grind CE rep for my Earthwarden. But, it will be mine...oh yes...it will be mine! I just have to figure out how to grind rep for everyone else. I vowed to my guildie that in exchange for the gems and enchants she gave me, I'd make whatever elixirs/potions she could possibly need. Little did I know what kind of an undertaking that would be! OI!!!

Would I not also want +Ap or +Strength enchants on any open spots? Or just leave that aside for now and focus on +Stam?

Oiysters
10-22-2008, 08:38 PM
Would I not also want +Ap or +Strength enchants on any open spots? Or just leave that aside for now and focus on +Stam?

TLDR version: No. Get to 40% dodge and then go stam.

Long version: Tanking is all about time to live (ttl), which is basically how long you would live against a given mob with no heals. The ultimate goal is to maximize your ttl through a combination of avoidance (dodge), mitigation (armor), and health (stamina).

Too much avoidance means you take damage in streaks; you may go several seconds taking no damage and then get hammered for several seconds, making it very difficult for the healers to anticipate your damage. Too little avoidance and you get hit all the time and become a mana sponge.

You can no longer have too much armor. Patch 3.0 solved that.

You can't have too much health, unless you are sacrificing armor or dodge for it.

AP and strength are only useful if you are having threat problems. Post 3.0, if you are having threat problems it is your rotation or your timing that is off. Threat has been seriously buffed.

As you get more experience you will get a feel for the mix of stats you like best.

Kheldar
10-23-2008, 03:29 AM
Gratz on 70 Dest.

Sounds like you're having fun tbh and the issues facing you are 'nice' ones giving you some fun playing times for gear and experimenting with gear and stats.

Yeah the Stylin' Purple is kewl...i used one for ages and ages the amount of Stam and Agi was awesome - esp as i dont raid and was not going to be in line for a T4 helm ever.

wrt PVP - i am the worlds main pvp detester but even I had to venture into there sometime ago as a result of a thread on here i posted.

The PVP Shoulders and Helm were both amazing upgrades to anything I could get via heroics.

I understand there are some really nice new pvp items but the rep need for them is quite high compared to previously and it sounds like you will not need to pvp as you have the ability and chance to get nicely geared from some Kara runs ahead of Nov 13th.....

I must check out my Dodge %age as i dont believe I have the 40% being mentioned unbuffed.....maybe i've stacked stam/armour to much!

i know in my post patch 'nerfed' state i'm now sitting around 21-22k armour iirc...which is down almost 10k. HP wise i believe i sit around 17k in bear ?

been so busy with work/RL that i've sadly barely played since the patch and not even found my way into a heroic :( hoping to change that this weekend/next week and run lots for some badges for another couple of items ahead of Wrath.

I really wanna try the new buttons we've got in Bear in a heroic as i'm enjoying the new kitty dps etc when doling solo daily's.

Maybe its even worth pugging Kara now esp if its with at least 4/5 people i know.....

Destinae
10-23-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks, Khel! I still have a LOT to learn, but I think I'm starting to get a solid grasp on gear/stats and that sort of thing. (Finally, right?)

I've put together a decent threat gen rotation, I think. So far I've only lost threat once and it was very early in the battle and I got it back as quickly as I could. (Arms warriors make it hard to yank back threat!)

I currently, in bear form with my "crappy" gear (helm, hands, waist, bracers) have 29% dodge, 11k+ HP, 11,700+ armor. Not bad considering that when I first hit 70 it was 3k lower in HP and Armor. I'll try and gather some upgrades tonight or over the weekend.

I also think I got the best compliment I've ever received so far in my druid career..."Do you mind if my guild borrows you sometime to tank?" I was speechless! It wasn't a raiding guild that asked, but still, I was happy to hear it!

Claritondeus
10-23-2008, 12:48 PM
I also think I got the best compliment I've ever received so far in my druid career..."Do you mind if my guild borrows you sometime to tank?" I was speechless! It wasn't a raiding guild that asked, but still, I was happy to hear it!

Yay :) See, everyone loves a good tank ^^

Destinae
10-23-2008, 01:32 PM
LoL Clari!

And Oiy, thank you for clarifying. I've heard that the +Str/Ap on the weapons/gear we get for tanking generates a sufficient amount of power to hold threat with a good rotation.

+Def does not translate directly to dodge% right? Believe I've seen this posted here and in other forums.

I'm being told that instead of stacking Dodge/Agi that I should stack Defense. But I am not a warrior. I am already uncrittable even completely stripped of gear against PvE. No, I am not a warrior. I am a bear. Rawr!

Oiysters
10-23-2008, 02:29 PM
+Def does not translate directly to dodge% right? Believe I've seen this posted here and in other forums.
Not directly, no. It does have a dodge component though. At lower levels of gear (< Sunwell) agility is far more valuable than defense rating or dodge rating. At higher levels of gear (t7 for our purposes) avoidance from agility is on diminishing returns (DR), meaning that above a certain level of dodge, we get less and less dodge per point of agility stacked. At a certain point (and I admit I don't know what it is yet), defense rating and dodge rating become more valuable statistics for us.

Yes, we are not warriors! WE ARE BEARS! We do not have shields or spell reflect, and we DO NOT NEED DEFENSE RATING! lol.

I promise we will not steer you wrong here at The Grove. And if things change, we will let you know. ;-)

edit: wth happened to my sig? Those stats are all wrong lol.

Claritondeus
10-23-2008, 02:39 PM
+Def does not translate directly to dodge% right? Believe I've seen this posted here and in other forums.

Each point of +Defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be Missed (http://www.wowwiki.com/Miss), to Block (http://www.wowwiki.com/Block), to Dodge (http://www.wowwiki.com/Dodge) and to Parry (http://www.wowwiki.com/Parry) for players. This means +25 Defense will grant you an extra 1% Miss, Parry, Dodge, and Block. The formula is constant across all classes.

So yeah, it does add to your dodge, but not anywhere near as much as agi does on a point-for-point comparison. The reason that stacking Def isn't as efficient for druids (assuming uncrittable) is that we cannot Block or Parry. Thus a significant portion of the benefits of defense are wasted.

I'm being told that instead of stacking Dodge/Agi that I should stack Defense. But I am not a warrior. I am already uncrittable even completely stripped of gear against PvE. No, I am not a warrior. I am a bear. Rawr!

You are right. They were right =/ Pre 3.0 druids needed to stack Defense (or resil, or a combination of both) to get to the magic 5.6% crit reduction (to be uncrittable to lv 73 mobs) Now, with a talented 6% reduction in chance to be crit, defense becomes and even less efficient means for mitigation.

You obviously want to have a good amount of stamina, but once you are at a comfortable amount of health for your healers, Agi is king. Don't worry too much about health - there is a TON of stam on all the kara / pvp gear that you will be picking up, so your health will jump quite a bit in the coming weeks. Also, with buffs being raid-wide now, it's not inconcievable that you will have Fort, MoTW, Kings and Blood Pact.

Because I'm bored, and work is slow:

Good gems:
Delicate Living Ruby http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24028
Glinting Noble Topaz http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24061
Shifting Nightseye http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24055
Solid Star of Elune http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24033

Good enchants:
Chest +6 stats: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24033
Gloves +15agi: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=20731
Wrist +12sta: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22533
Feet +12agi: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22544
or +12sta: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22543

Must-have tanking trinket: Badge of Tenacity http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32658. Best way to find one of these is on the AH. It has typically around 300-500g, and was well worth it for tanking, though I'm not too sure about any new wotlk trinkets, and how they will stack up for tanking.

Must-have tanking idol: Idol of Terror http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33509. probably the best way you can spend your first 20 badges (which you will get from a full Kara clear).

Destinae
10-23-2008, 03:02 PM
OK good, because I had thought that maybe I misread something or I was arguing my point incorrectly. I'll insist on ^dodge% with Agi and straight dodge if I can get it.

I would guess that +6 all stats will increase dodge a little?

It seems like there are different schools of thought on new stat priorities, so I'll list what I'm aiming for in order to see if you then agree...

1. Armor
2. Dodge/Agi (to get that magical 40% unbuffed or something close to it)
3. Stam (as much stam as I can possibly get)

Priority 1 and 2 could probably be one in the same right now. Since I only need 11 or so % more dodge to get to 40% unbuffed in bear, I ranked that #2 for now.

I really asked because trying to convince old school players that you need +Agi/Dodge and not +Def is really proving to be difficult.

Phew! I'll stick to my guns then. Sometimes when people are so insistent on a concept, it makes you second guess yourself.

Eventually I'll be trying to build a good kitty set, but I think I'm better learning one stat concept at a time. For any kitty gear that I have (which is all pure junk at this point) I just switch it in and out and mix and match until I'm seeing bigger attacks and crits in the 2k+ range.

My main focus is tanking. Not sure why, but I LOVE tanking!!!

I believe my 11k+ health was buffed :(

I'll start working on getting my enchants and gems situated. I'll aim for 40% dodge first, then armor and stam I think. The dodge seems like the easiest milestone to reach for, though it seems like once I start reaching one of my stat goals, the others will begin to fall more easily into place.

I'm just having fun. On Tuesday when the new patch comes out and we get our points refunded (again /sigh) I'm going to really spend some time planning out what I think will be a solid bear build. I'd rather tank than DPS any day.

Claritondeus
10-23-2008, 03:33 PM
I would guess that +6 all stats will increase dodge a little?

Yeah, 6 agility. and 6 stamina. and 6 str (/shrug)

I really asked because trying to convince old school players that you need +Agi/Dodge and not +Def is really proving to be difficult.

Just tell them that you now have a 6% crit reduction from talents. If they don't believe you, tell them to inspect your talents, and look at the Survival of the Fittest talent tooltip.

I'm just having fun.

Thats the point :)

edit: as has been mentioned, including defense / resil in your tanking set will allow you to drop points out of SotF and put them elsewhere. though you do lose a 2% bonus to all stats when you do so. But pre-80, that might allow you to pick up some other nice talents. up to you really.

Destinae
10-23-2008, 04:15 PM
I understand I can stack +Def to spread out more talent points. But because I'm still learning, I feel a little more comfortable having that safety net there while I tweak other stats and learn more about putting together a really good Des-Tank.

I'm trying to get a solid grasp on my tanking stats before I even begin to look at the Feral Spec Off-Healer and Feral Kitty DPS stats.

Oiysters
10-24-2008, 01:51 AM
Feral Spec Off-Healer

This concept is kinda dead now, unless you are talking about switching gear between fights before the dual spec feature is introduced. As soon as you get to Northrend, you will not find feral gear with intelligence on it, so we have tiny mana pools. By the time we shift, throw a heal or two and an innervate, we barely have enough mana to get back into bear or cat.

If one or two heals is the difference between wiping or not, go for it. But I'm afraid the days of being useful offhealers in feral spec are gone. It's the tradeoff we have to make in order to get the tanking and dps buffs we've gotten.

Oiysters
10-26-2008, 01:53 PM
Looks like 50% dodge is where DR kicks in and it is no longer efficient to stack agi for tanking. The good news is that defense rating has some relative value once you hit that point because of the increased chance to be missed...lol.

Solarflash
10-27-2008, 08:26 AM
As for the feral off-healer being dead. I think the situation Oiysters described is correct, however if you start a fight as a healer in spell power gear and feral spec, you can still be a huge asset.

My bear, when shifted into the healing role has mostly blues with a few purples and a few greens, has a raid buffed mana pool that is about 10k and about 600 spell power. I can easily keep up a main tank in many raid encounters all by my self. So that leaves a lot of wiggle room for the actual healers to pickup splash dmg and cleanse, dispell, move....etc.

So don't discount the importance of some healing knowledge and skill as a tank. Most raid environments will need at least 2 tanks at some point, but not at all points. Too many tanks is always less desirable than too many healers! :)

Destinae
10-27-2008, 10:43 AM
Successfully cleared Kara with very few deaths between two nights. Did all but 3 bosses Saturday, the last 3 bosses (including Chess) yesterday. Lots of leather gear dropped, but Des doesn't have any Kara gear.

With a quest turn in I got the Violet Signet of the protector. The armor is nice. And I got a vanity pet from the new boss. And some badges. I have about 20 badges because I missed grabbing some badges from one of the bosses. Not sure how it happened...Other than that though, Des is still in baby gear and can't find a Stylin' Purple hat to save my life on our server. Grr!

But I do have a question...

If the loot rules are, "Need roll if the piece is for your main-spec, greed roll if it's for your off-spec"...What is a feral druid supposed to do?

Technically any leather feral pieces (and the Stranglestaff) are for my "main spec" if you look at it as a general term because I'm feral. But the kitty druid got all the rolls and Des, the little bear with big heart, sat in a corner almost in tears.

The Bracers of Maliciousness (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28514) and The Girdle of Treachery (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28750) dropped, among other items including the Stranglestaff - but I wasn't allowed to roll on them. I understand the DPS being my off-spec, but when asked if I could need-roll on either of those two, I got told they were DPS and I'd have to greed roll to get them for my "off-spec" - so of course the kitty druid's need roll gave him all of the gear he could have wanted.

But the question I had, on the Bracers - should I have rolled on them? Critical strike rating doesn't seem like a tanking thing, but the other stats fit and the armor would have been an amazing upgrade. I'm not sure what I should be needing on under the rule I mentioned above...I don't want to be a loot whore, but I'd like to get some better gear on my druid.

The Critical Strike rating, I would think, would help generate threat. Maybe I should go boomkin and PvP for my "end game"...

I'm trying not to sound like I'm whining...I'm just confused and looking for clarification...

Solarflash
10-27-2008, 10:54 AM
But I do have a question...

If the loot rules are, "Need roll if the piece is for your main-spec, greed roll if it's for your off-spec"...What is a feral druid supposed to do?




Well Des, as a Feral tank you are going to find that almost no gear in Kara is made for Bear Tanks. But the rule in our runs is if the gear is an upgrade for your primary spec, then you are entitled to a roll.

We have found that we can't use the "well its better for person A than person B" because maybe person B has just worked harder for their gear and they shouldn't be punished if its a lesser upgrade.

So I would say if the kitty gear, particullarily that staff, is an upgrade, you should both get a roll. And if someone else has already gotten main spec loot, they generally are required to pass.

On a side note, there is a better tanking staff off the last boss in heroic bot! It has almost the same stats, +300 armor or so. And if you can OT kara you will smoke through H-Bot...its a joke now.

Allahanastar
10-27-2008, 11:04 AM
People won't agree with this Dest, but moving forward Rogue gear is our ONLY option for tanking other than set pieces. Some of the best gear you'll be able to wear will be rogue gear. Beyond our tier sets Rogues have to get use to the fact that feral tanks are going to be stacking rogue gear.

I fully expect most bear tanks will see nice gains with threat from stacking, +hit (to whatever the new cap is if its changed), Expertise (for removing parry and dodge) and haste for reduction in our cooldowns and overall increase in our base attack speed in bear form.

Kheldar
10-27-2008, 11:11 AM
so why is it 'rogue' gear then if its good for ferals ?

Destinae
10-27-2008, 11:20 AM
So, then, I "SHOULD" have hit need on any leather pieces that popped up that could have been feral/rogue gear?

Most were stam/agi pieces that I saw. I gladly would have passed on the staff to pick up some of the other pieces. I don't think our raid leader would have cared, but I got the evil eye from the other feral in there when I wanted to need on gear.

Maybe we won't need insane amount of AP for bear, so like I said- I would have passed on the stranglestaff to pick up the bracers and the girdle at the very least.

The worst part for me is that I got in there and it was more out of fear of upsetting any guild members that I just passed on the gear. If I'm a "tank spec" and need roll something that everyone else might think is a DPS piece, then I'm afraid of losing my spot in future raids. Maybe I'll talk with one of our guild officers who regularly takes us through raids about the new needs for us bear tanks and see if I can safely roll on these items without getting into much trouble.

That...or...PuG for raids...

Solar, unfortunately, the "You just received an upgraded main spec loot, so let the other druid have a stab at it" didn't apply to our group. It was pretty disheartening. I won't even try to say it wasn't. And we had 3 tanks. 1 Main, 2 OT (myself and a prot warrior). I didn't really get to actually tank hardly at all. I think maybe that's why it was so frustrating. If you're telling your druid OT to pop into cat for Boss A or Boss B, then why shouldn't they be allowed to roll on DPS gear/weapons? I guess that was my big issue.

And it wasn't the raid leader. It was the other druid...who...was sitting...right next to me...and is...my husband...this is why I was nearing tears both nights. I wasn't even sure I wanted to go back and finish it off the second night, but I didn't want to upset any officers last night by skipping a raid.

Kheldar
10-27-2008, 11:37 AM
well tbh as a hybrid you are going to be asked to fill more than '1' set role.

so if there is an item that drops and u need it for a role you could be asked to play within a raid then you are perfectly within your right.

esp if its a feral item (ie for dps or tanking) and you are feral.

maybe if its a healing item and you would like it check it out with others first b4 needing ?

Destinae
10-27-2008, 11:45 AM
That's what I thought Khel, but if you read my last post, you'll understand why I didn't.

My husband was the kitty druid and warned that me hitting need on anything other than blindingly obvious tanking pieces would get me in trouble with the raid leader/officers. Out of fear of upsetting the guild, I just let it slide. I know what stats I need, and looking at gear I know what's useful...but I'm shy and nervous when it comes to interacting with people and I was so afraid of upsetting anyone...

Now I only wish I had a RL cat form- I'd shred him!

skwidrific
10-27-2008, 12:00 PM
I would have definitely hit Need on any MELEE leather gear drops (and asked permission to roll on caster leather)... as an oT, when you're NOT tanking a mob, you claw faces, and overall help with a faster clear...

after a while, when you have some decent dps gear, you can just keep that on during trash clears, which will help you generate rage, and deal more damage.

i personally LOVE it when im oT and scoring 3rd or better on the damage meters.

Allahanastar
10-27-2008, 12:06 PM
As far as leather gear goes 3.0 eliminated the arguement that rogue leather is "rogue leather first". Some of the rogue leather pieces are better for druid tanks now that they dumped off the extra armor that used to be on our "tanking leather".

skwidrific
10-27-2008, 12:14 PM
/agreed

that's why i, personally, am going to start using the terms "melee leather" and "caster (healer or dps) leather"...

when the expac hits, im going to make damn sure that my guild (and anybody that i happen to run with) knows that if ANY melee leather drops, im rolling on it if it's an upgrade... it shouldnt really be an issue until 74 or 75 anyways, with the gear im currently running...

Kheldar
10-27-2008, 12:22 PM
My husband was the kitty druid and warned that me hitting need on anything other than blindingly obvious tanking pieces would get me in trouble with the raid leader/officers. !
then u r in the wrong guild imho Dest.

cos the raid leader and/or officers are not fit for the jobs.

Destinae
10-27-2008, 12:42 PM
It wasn't the raid leader/officers though. It was my husband and his druid that induced the fear of needing gear. I'm incredibly timid by nature, which you'd think would make me a timid tank, but it doesn't. Rawr.

But when it comes to rolling on gear I'm incredibly timid because I don't like to upset anyone. I know my husband wanted to gear up his kitty, and I was all for it. I just felt intimidated by the whole thing...I was scared of upsetting people in the raid because we've all developed friendships by now and didn't want to be seen as a loot ninja.

It definitely wasn't the guild. It was more the fact that I hadn't established yet the needs of a feral tank as far as gear goes. All in all, it's my fault for being a newb to raiding and not just rolling on the stuff I knew I needed regardless...then just trying to justify the need roll later on if I had won it or been questioned.

It was so overwhelming because I had SO much on my mind. Our leader was telling us about the next fight as we finished one fight, then we'd be moving on and I got nervous and didn't want to mess anything up any more than I already was.

I just have to install some better (and actually functional) raid addons. Omen failed on me both nights. I didn't reinstall a functional Xperl. So, I'll be working on my addons after tomorrow's patch and tweaking them. Then, it's back to grinding quests and the AH to try and get some suitable gear to try and tank some heroics so I can gear up that way for awhile. And I have rep to grind. That should keep me busy enough :) Earthwarden, HERE I COME!

Oiysters
10-27-2008, 01:45 PM
If you are asked to DPS when you are not tanking, then DPS gear is part of your main spec and you are entitled to need roll. Period.

As was mentioned above, the only pieces that drop in Kara that are optimal for bear tanking are the t4 drops off Curator and Prince, Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28528), and Barbed Choker of Discipline (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28516). Under the loot rules you described, the cat druid should not be allowed to roll on those...:nono:...which is utterly silly. That being said, I've been tanking trash with Staff of Primal Fury (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33465) since 3.0 hit for the extra threat generation, and I use Earthwarden for the armor to tank bosses. So if Illhoof's staff drops again, roll need and if it has more agility and stam than what you're currently tanking with, use it to tank. Seriously.

And definitely, most definitely, talk to your RL and GL. I'm sure they don't want your dps while not tanking to be gimped due to a lack of gear. Two defined roles in a raid? Two main roles to need gear for. If you have three because they expect you to heal competently, well, then you have three.

The best approach is to share the drops. We have a rule that you get one need roll per run, unless no one else needs the gear. If you win a need roll, you are welcome to greed on anything else that drops. That way everyone gets a shot at the drops they need, and no one is shut out. You should never have to go through getting shut out of gear like that.

Edit: I should also say that we talk openly about the gear we have and the gear we need. If something drops that I need, and it's a bigger upgrade for someone else, I'll generally pass to them and vice-versa. Saves alot of hurt feelings and eliminates alot of the assumptions that happen that may or may not be true.

Kheldar
10-27-2008, 02:01 PM
I was scared of upsetting people in the raid because we've all developed friendships by now and didn't want to be seen as a loot ninja.

well if you have developed friendships etc within the guild you should certainly not need to worry about gear that you need in order to carry out the roles you know you do/will do in raids in the coming weeks.

its fine if you and another guildie etc come to a little agreement about who needs it the most and maybe you agree to pass if its a case of them or u get it.....i've done that b4 in casual raids.....cos in all the main raids i used to do we used DKP to dish out loot.

yeah as Oiy says chat to officers/RL about what roles they do see you doing for them and then make it clear you will need gear accordingly so as to be able to carry out your role for the good of the raid to the best of your ability.

Solarflash
10-27-2008, 02:52 PM
Well, Dest, don't feel bad. I felt very much the same way you are now. My druid was my 3rd toon to hit 70 and start raiding, so while I knew tons about what is or isn't good for a DPS caster, I was scared to roll on things for my bear because I wasn't as confident on the mechanics.

You are in a hard place because of all the changes that took place since the patch. If your raid leader doesn't roll a druid he probably has no idea one way or the other, what gear is appropriate for you. So I would say roll with confidence, since you are likely better educated than he. And at this point in the game, I think loot drama is way down because raids are just more relaxed.

Everyone goes through what you are now when they first start to raid. Just be confident and you will get some loots next time. As for your husband...well, he should share a little and perhaps had some selfish modivations behind misleading you on when to roll...us guys do stupid things like that...

And quite frankly if you do get grief about a roll, send your officers a link to this discussion. I promise, regardless of his experience there are some very very knowledgable druids here that will support your right to role on DPS loot (just look at the member since dates of some of these folks)

Good luck to you! Also, the badges from Kara will get you much better tanking gear than Kara itself. I only where two pieces of Kara gear for tanking (besides T4) There is some very good badge gear for bear tanks and get friendly with PvP. (Pocket watch, Barbed Chocker)

I hate it too, but its relatively easy to get honor if you just do AV (kinda like raiding) and then try to do the daily. Also find a friend to do arena with (maybe hubby!!!) Arena shoulders/gloves are the best in game right now for tanking and DPS. The sockets allow you to customize them for your personal needs.

Destinae
10-27-2008, 03:14 PM
<== Mentioned to hubbie that she has a pirate ninja costume wand and asked if he wanted me to hit him with it...cuz it would suit him! (Got in trouble for that comment too, though).

I'll probably find another person to team up with in Arena, if I can find the urge to even log in with my druid anymore.

I'm not going to bother the GL or RL about it. We've got our fare share of guild/raid drama and this is honestly more of a personal matter I think.

Like I said, I was just too timid to roll, so it was my fault. It was so frustrating to GRIND to get decent enough gear to OT in Kara- then have someone else reap all of the benefits of the work you put into your little tank...very discouraging.

I don't think he was malicious or selfish about the gear...at least I pray he wasn't. If so, we'll have WAY more to discuss than this game IRL. We've had...discussions...about this particular situation.

I just wanted to know if you guys felt like tanking is a main spec or if FERAL is a main spec. IMO- Feral is the main spec...not DPS or Tank. But it was my fault for not questioning it louder and clarifying with our RL. Lesson learned.

But I'll close this by saying...it's going to be really hard when we fight Mirkblood again...if he mirrors my husband's toon, not to just stack combo points and hit ferocious bite! I won't, because I adore our healers and don't want to complicate their already difficult job...just makes me giggle to think about attacking him through a boss...that's all :)

Allahanastar
10-27-2008, 03:42 PM
For what its worth... now there is a difference. You're primary spec either promotes one of three things:
1. Feral DPS
2. Feral Tanking
3. Feral Combo (appropriate for OT scenarios)

But it should be stated that Feral DPS and Feral Tanking gear will be near identical in the expansion. The only difference you might see is in the necks, rings and trinkets. Expect tanks to use rings with armor on them. Expect DPS to use more agility, hit, crit or expertise. Tanks might put more focus on Dodge and stamina. It really depends on what your spec it tuned for. Personally if I'm OT and expected to DPS when I'm not tanking, then Melee Leather of all flavors is fair game.

In the end though its probably not abig argument needing to be had two weeks away from the expansion. Kara gear in some cases will be replaced insanely fast.

Oiysters
10-27-2008, 03:43 PM
I'm not going to bother the GL or RL about it. We've got our fare share of guild/raid drama and this is honestly more of a personal matter I think.

Going to disagree with you here, Dest. This is a guild policy matter. Either you don't know the GL/RL policies on loot, have been mislead about them, or they need to be changed. It's very important for you to know the facts so that you can make good decisions. And there is no need for you to bring drama to the GL/RL, just ask them to clarify the loot rules for you. Once they do that, you can question them further and/or make your case if it is necessary.

Asking for the loot rules to be explained to you is hardly drama. It it's percieved that way, then I agree with Kheldar that you are in the wrong guild.

Allahanastar
10-27-2008, 03:47 PM
I'm going to agree with Oiysters on this too. Asking the question in a respectful way and noting that with the reduction in true "feral Leather" that we need to stack melee leather isn't really inviting drama. You're just asking the question and gaging the response. No need to go over the top. Just ask for clarification and see what shakes out.

I'm a raid leader and I don't even blink twice when someone asks me a question like that. I just walk them through our loot policy so they know what to expect. That first time through is very intimidating.

Destinae
10-27-2008, 04:14 PM
The reason I disagree is that this isn't so much a loot policy sort of thing. This is a "One druid misled the other druid" kind of thing. We're married, so it's better we hash this out between the two of us. He wasn't being malicious about it. I should have asked for clarification.

The issue, I don't think, is with our loot policy. I know if I'd have selected Need on any single one of those items, no one would have said anything. This is more, my husband told me not to roll and I listened to him...but then it haunted me when I realized that I had left Kara completely empty handed and he had darn nearly upgraded everything on his toon.

I will get clarification with the guild officers if I log in again anytime soon. But this is really more of a newbish mistake that I made. Something to learn from. I kind of felt like FERAL was the main spec...since we can do either tanking or dps...but my husband advised otherwise and I just got confused, frustrated, discouraged, and overwhelmed and just did the job I needed to do for the raid then logged out.

And it isn't really an argument on needing/kara gear, what have you. I just wanted to know what I should have done in the situation. I thought I would ask you guys for advice on it, especially since our stat needs have changed so much. I'm just going to go try and quest for a little bit better tanking/dps gear for awhile. I might just avoid the raids because it's left a bitter taste in my mouth for now, and I'd rather try and enjoy the game than have to deal with drama.

Kheldar
10-28-2008, 04:41 AM
its sad Dest if you feel you dont want to raid now cos of this situation.

i think you need to /roar at your husband so he knows his place ;)

however as well as sorting out your husband, you simply need a quick chat with the GL or a RL or an officer to fully understand any loot rules your guild has (are they posted on forums?) and also importantly to understand what roles they see you fulfilling for them in raids.....

my view is if you're feral then you roll on feral loot, i'm not sure yet about making a low level distinction between feral dps or feral tanking ?

you're a hybrid and as feral need gear to allow you to help out by tanking and dps - sure you maybe a little better or a little more focused on one but you damn well need to be able to do both cos thats the versatility you bring to a raid - esp in these days of less people - ie in 40 man raids you had more spaces for each class to specialiase, now with reduced numbers you have lost some of that ability - hence why people are talking about the dumbing down of classes and Blizz removing some of the differences so X class is not always excluded cos Y classs has a OoC Res or wotever...

.......maybe Wrath loot will see if this lower level distinction is possible/needs doing....

and i would have thought that when people start raiding again properly in Wrath it will once again be based on DKP. So unless you guild is going to start listing EVERY single piece of Raid loot and deciding on a priority list by class you are within your right to bid on it using your DKP.

this actually happened in my old raid guild. the officers created a list of ALL the loot in BWL / AQ40 etc and put a class priority against it.

ie in the old days the Druid Tier 2 set (Stormrage) was healer gear despite the fact there was not a Tier 2 Feral set. Now 90% of the time in raids i healed with my feral build. So on the loot priority list EVERY Stormrage piece was listed as

Resto > Oomkin/Feral

giving our (talented) healers the chance to acquire it first. Similar was done withe leather gear to show if a rogue was in front of a feral druid or vice versa.

Without this, and using DKP you decide what gear you need based on your use of your earned DKP.

Get it sorted Dest and then enjoy your druid and raiding again :grin:

Destinae
10-28-2008, 10:39 AM
Well, my husband and I talked about the situation. I just blindly trusted him b/c he's been with this guild a LOT longer than I have. He misunderstood the rule and I was too timid to clarify. Just a misunderstanding, I suppose.

As for DKP, I don't think we use them now, and I'm not sure if we will in the future or not. I will have to find out what the plans are for the future, but because we're such a casual guild, I don't know if they'd go that far.

It was my newbish mistake for not holding everything up until I got the clarification I needed. It was a lesson learned, and unfortunately learned the hard way.

I've decided I might just try and get some better gear for kitty and PvP for awhile or do heroics with PuG's for rep and the like. The situation's left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

It's a good thing I've got you guys to help guide me in situations like this. :) I've still got a lot to learn, and it's nice to have druids I know I can rely on to throw me in the right direction :)

<3 You guys are the best!

Oiysters
10-28-2008, 12:01 PM
I hope we are being helpful, Dest. I encourage you to arm yourself with all the relevant information you need to make good decisions.

I admit as an officer and a RL I look out for the people in my guild. If someone isn't rolling on an item I know they need, I question them before handing out loot. I don't want to lose good people to such unnecessary frustration.

Claritondeus
10-28-2008, 12:54 PM
Des - I can see how this might be disheartening. Especially cause it is your husband that took advantage of the situation and put you in this spot.

Honestly, it's happened to every single one of us before. especially those of us that raided back in 40 mans, where the number of drops were the same, but there were four times as many people... I remember pre-bc raiding night in and night out as heavy resto, and having far and away more dkp than anyone else in the guild. A piece of feral loot dropped in MC (some bracers with a TON of +str), and I bid on it. The other officers (I was an officer at the time) decided that it was a feral piece, and let this random feral (that was healing very poorly) have it for min dkp. I was quite bummed out about it, but didn't make a big deal cause I was an officer, and I didn't want to rock the boat. So turns out, next week, same bracers dropped, and no one else even wanted them, so I got them.

Long story short, everything will drop again, and even if it doesn't, the important thing for you right now is to experience the content, as all the neat shiny new purple gear you get will be replaced in less than a month, and will be sitting in your bank (where those lv 60 epic feral bracers are still sitting, under about 12" of dust). I know that doesn't help the bad feeling, but just try to see the positive in that you explored new content, killed some cool bosses, and hopefully earned the respect of some of your guildies as a strong tank and someone they would like to run with again.

It will be very beneficial moving forward for you to have had this experience, and will help your growth as an assertive baretank :P

Destinae
10-28-2008, 01:12 PM
You guys have all been incredibly helpful. My husband and I talked about it a lot. We both made the newbie mistake of not asking for clarification because it was our first raid ever. We're both new to being lvl 70. It was intimidating. I didn't think for a second he was being malicious at all. We <3 each other hehe

We just made a mistake. It's still a little discouraging, but it was an innocent mistake. To try and spin it in a more positive light, since he's got a bunch of upgrades- it does two GOOD things for me. First, it increases his DPS, so if I'm tanking and he's DPS, he gets the mobs down faster. Second, now that he's got a bunch of new gear, if we go through Kara again, I am imagining I'll get to roll on all the feral pieces without much competition. Most of our 70's already have moved past Kara as far as gear goes. We're the only two ferals in the guild that are 70. I believe most of our rogues, too, are beyond Kara in gear. Des is looking to get PAMPERED next time the guild takes her furry little bum through Kara.

There's always some sunshine behind the clouds :)

I'll ask for clarification, and perhaps speak with our RL's and Guild officers about the "new ferals" and the things we need. I'm hoping that will make things go a little better in the future for Des and her beloved Balzy too!

And Clari- it wasn't so much the gear as the confusion on the rules. I don't think my husband took advantage of the situation. I think it was an honest and innocent mistake, after having talked it over with him now, at length. I think I got mad at him for not helping me get clarification. I'm soft spoken, so our RL probably didn't hear me over our rowdier guys on ventrilo when I tried to ask. And Raid Chat gets lost in the background when you're a RL trying to explain the upcoming fight to your group (especially when you're throwing in a brand new off-tank who's NEVER done it before). Just a lot of misunderstanding and lack the hutspa to get loud enough to get clarification.

But...I got a lil bat friend from the Blood Mirror guy. So, it wasn't completely in vain. I can summon him and have all the lowbies Oooohing and Aaaahing over him. Cuz he's awesome.

Solarflash
10-28-2008, 01:18 PM
Des,

Might I also reccomend the unthinkable...PuG everything you can!!!

I know, its leaves a bad taste in my mouth to say it. But I dinged 70 about 5-6 weeks ago on my bear, and instantly began PuGing every raid I could squeak into. Pre 3.0 patch, I only got into corpse runs because, well, thats all my gear qualified me for.

After 3.0 I have run into so many raiding guilds that just need a filler and are willing to take whatever is out there. Since the patch hit, I don't think I have hit a Tuesday without 3-6 raid ID's saved on my druid. I have picked up sooo many badges it is unbelievable.

My guild wouldn't dare let me run raid as OT a few weeks ago because my gear was "blue"....(said with a mildly annoyed undertone)

So after I MT pug'd a Kara run, I got cocky and tried OT run in ZA. Now I am the featured MT for ZA for another guild I don't belong to, and I picked up my first piece of T5 (legs from Leo) last night because of a "reference" that got me into a SSC with an avid raiding guild. To give you an idea of the gear I ran with, I won the Tier piece because no one within the guild running needed it. Full clear of SSC in about 2.5 hours.

Anyway, I urge you not to be afraid to PuG, in fact I urge it! If you screw up...no one cares. If you succeed, you will find sooner rather than later, someone will take notice. If loot drops, everyone is entitled to roll, and all of the sudden you look at your currency tab to see you have 70+ badges just sitting there begging you to be turned into T4+ equiv tanking gear!

Also, farm the daily heroic! There are always people in the LFG channel looking for a tank to take them through the daily heroic. The only instance I have found stressful to tank is H-BF, and thats just because they hit insanley hard and my healer was very undergeared.

For Bear Gear be sure to hit:
H-Bot Staff
H-Mgt (much easier than before) - Trinket
H-Mech - Cape
H-Underbog - Bracers or Gloves (can't remember)

tlbj6142
10-28-2008, 01:35 PM
Consider yourself lucky, we are not allowed to raid outside of the guild. It will result in immediate /gkick.

Solarflash
10-28-2008, 01:41 PM
Consider yourself lucky, we are not allowed to raid outside of the guild. It will result in immediate /gkick.


Wow...I guess I play on my terms. I belong to a fairly casual raid guild (30-50 active members,T5 content) and I am a raid leader on my mage. So when all the world events started, they all went Zombie hunting while I kept wanting to raid... so I found my own groups.

On a side note: Why would you stay with a guild like that? I completely understand if you are scheduled to run, they don't want you saved to the instance, but man...unless they are there waiting at my becon call to run stuff, I can't see a lot of logic in that policy. We work under the "We can't help you until you have learned to help yourself" policy, meaning we expect our raiders to not only have Pug'd in the past but to keep it up in order to maintain gear levels.

skwidrific
10-28-2008, 01:51 PM
Consider yourself lucky, we are not allowed to raid outside of the guild. It will result in immediate /gkick.

dude, have you thought about warming up your /gquit button?

seriously, i'm an officer in a very casual raiding guild, and if my GM ever threatened anything of the sort to me, i would have saved him the trouble on the spot... nothing personal, but if you're going to enforce how *i* play, while at the same time possibly not fulfilling my desire to see further endgame content, then im off to FAR greener pastures... have your healers shaped up, btw?

now, i could see if you're a raid leader on a very consistant weekly Kara run to gear up guildies, and you wind up saved to a different Kara... but if your guild is stuck on Mag, and you have the oppurtunity to run SSC or TK with a group that has it on farm, that's a no-brainer right there...

just my .02

Oiysters
10-28-2008, 02:10 PM
Consider yourself lucky, we are not allowed to raid outside of the guild. It will result in immediate /gkick.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but /agree Solar and Skwid...and holy crap tlbj.

I'll repeat what I posted in another thread here at the Grove...come on over to Kel'Thuzad and pst me for a /ginvite. I've read your posts here and on EJ and would love to have a feral like you in our guild. And toon transfers are free atm.

We're working on Azgalor now and headed to BT this weekend, only t4-ish gear required. We will never tell you how to spec or how to play. All we ever ask is that you gem and enchant whatever you're wearing on progression nights, and if you commit to a raid show up or let someone know you're not coming ahead of time.

Christ, what possible justification could your GL have for such a stupid rule?

tlbj6142
10-28-2008, 02:57 PM
Christ, what possible justification could your GL have for such a stupid rule?They don't think it is stupid, but I think it is a bit weird in some scenarios. Here's the basics...
We are a huge (135 accounts, 300+ toons) stupid casual guild, that sometimes raids. Though maybe only 40 accounts.
If I raid with other guilds, my guildmates will see that and feel as though I'm not willing to help my guild advance. Rather than running a kara pug, why not help Frank gear up in 5-mans?
in the past we have allowed it and 99% of the time it occurs, that member leaves the guild. In short, screwing the rest of the guild in the process.
What I don't really understand is that now that T4 is mostly behind our guild (well those that want to raid) why we can't pug T4? I can understand the above rules for ZA and T5+ but at this time in the game's history as well as our guild's Kara/Mags/Gruul is easier than a fricken heroic 5-man. Heck normal MgT is harder than a 10-man Kara run. We are allowed to 5-man pug. Which I do often.

I really should just stop whining about the whole thing. I love the people in the guild and their casual playing. I play 3-5 nights 2-3 hours at a time. Sometimes I get to do what I want, other times I help others (which I don't mind) and sometimes all I can do is dailies (ugh!). The more the later occurs, the more I get whinny.

I fear that if I move to a new guild some or all of that experience will be lost. Will the new guild run reg BM to help some one get their potion thingy? Or will they think of it as "beneath them"? Will they help someone's 7th alt do group quests in HFP? I'm torn, really. I do think that the Xpac will "reset" quite a bit and things will change (for me and/or the guild) as more of the guild will be on a level playing field.

We'll see....

Solarflash
10-28-2008, 03:27 PM
They don't think it is stupid, but I think it is a bit weird in some scenarios. Here's the basics...
We are a huge (135 accounts, 300+ toons) stupid casual guild, that sometimes raids. Though maybe only 40 accounts.
If I raid with other guilds, my guildmates will see that and feel as though I'm not willing to help my guild advance. Rather than running a kara pug, why not help Frank gear up in 5-mans?
in the past we have allowed it and 99% of the time it occurs, that member leaves the guild. In short, screwing the rest of the guild in the process.


1) While my guild is smaller in volume, the number of "raiders" is approximatley the same. I am not sure how that effects the rule one way or another.

2) I raid with other guilds not because I am unwilling to help my guild advance but because they are unwilling or unable to raid with that particular toon on my schedule. (I don't expect 9 people to drop what they are doing to get my druid through kara, when there are already 9 people in que who are waiting to go...thats just silly)

3) If members are leaving the guild after raiding with another it is likely because the current guild is not providing the level of enjoyment from the game that the other guild is offering. While I certainly understand the frustration of losing a member you worked hard to gear up, your GL has to understand that player has likely just out grown the guild.

This is a big part of why my guild (oldest on the server) has more or less stopped "gearing" new people. We figure:

*If you are serious about wanting to raid then PUGs will be your "spirit walk" on the way to raiding. This weeds out the unwilling and weak from the herde. Sounds harsh, but eliminates alot of the gearing and running you speak of. If you earned your gear then staying or going is up to you, and of little concern to the guild. Certainly we want you, but understand if you have other desires.
People don't think twice about buying or farming a flask once they have been on a corpse run or ten...50-70g for a flask and loots, or a 100g on repairs and frustration. Raid is a different mind set and attitude, and I think PUGs help build that character and attitude.

*What about schedule??? I still participate in the progression raids with my mage, but I can't expect my guildies want to raid as often as I or on my schedule.

Claritondeus
10-28-2008, 03:31 PM
I fear that if I move to a new guild some or all of that experience will be lost. Will the new guild run reg BM to help some one get their potion thingy? Or will they think of it as "beneath them"? Will they help someone's 7th alt do group quests in HFP? I'm torn, really. I do think that the Xpac will "reset" quite a bit and things will change (for me and/or the guild) as more of the guild will be on a level playing field.

We'll see....

I believe that what goes around comes around. If people are asking in /g for help and you go help them, they are more likely to help you in return. That being said, in going to a new guild you will be the new guy and won't have as many friends right off the bat, but that will change quickly.

There are a lot of really casual yet progressing guilds out there. My guild on Blackrock is made up of mainly PvP'ers (tons of glads) and we still managed to work our way through BT pre-nerf. There were ~20 people that made every raid (Tues through Thurs from 630pst to 1030pst), and the other 20 ppl were whoever was on at the time, no matter spec. As long as there were enough healers and tanks, we were going. Might be worthwhile for you to check around, but thats completley up to you.

Oiysters
10-28-2008, 03:42 PM
1. We are larger, but very similar. We have gone months with nothing but the occasional Kara run, and we are doing more now since the content nerf. The people that want to raid on a given night do, and we pug the rest. Slow nights we pug 15, rarely we pug none.

2. We help each other all the time, but it is not forced like that. Why should I be forced to help Frank if I have an opportunity to go to a BT pug and bring that knowledge and experience home to my guild?

3. I'm not surprised. Such a suffocating environment would drive me and most other folks away, too.

I spend whole weekends running instances and raids that I cannot benefit from, same as has been done for me in the past. However, none of it was forced, and certainly no one in my guild feels hurt (nor do they have the right to, imo) if I don't feel like tanking reg BM for them today.

tlbj6142
10-28-2008, 03:48 PM
3. I'm not surprised. Such a suffocating environment would drive me and most other folks away, too.It wasn't this way before. This "rule" is fairly new. Maybe 3-4 months old. The guild is 2.5 years old. No one has left (to my knowledge) since the rule was put in place. There were a few that I thought for sure would jump ship, but I still see them on the list.

Allahanastar
10-29-2008, 08:39 AM
Just for some perspective. I know of a raiding guild over on Shadow Council that encourages their members to PUG stuff to keep up. Basically when they moved on to T6, they stopped running any T5. So if you were behind the curve, it was your job to catch up.

It sounds harsh, but it kept their members who had the drive to do it moving forward and left the people who were just along for the ride to stay on the sidelines. Either way, they weren't locking people into their runs only.

Kheldar
10-29-2008, 08:44 AM
from memory when i was raiding it was frowned upon if you went raiding with another guild but i think it was tolerated providing it was on a 'free' day.

it was also a 'rule' that if a planned raid did not have enough people and you were online you were expcted to come along to help.

ie no saying you had not signed up as you were not available and were going to continue with quests / pvp / farming stuff

Solarflash
10-29-2008, 09:38 AM
it was also a 'rule' that if a planned raid did not have enough people and you were online you were expcted to come along to help.

ie no saying you had not signed up as you were not available and were going to continue with quests / pvp / farming stuff

How do such drakonian guilds manages to maintain ranks and recruit? I guess we have been fortunate enough to have lines of people waiting to get into raids, so there is no need to "force" someone in who didn't want to. Surely we go to the LFG que when there is a special need that the guild can't provide, or if there just aren't many people logged on.

In most cases, LFG has been kind to us. With a little armory and interview before an invite, its pretty easy to tell who is qualified for the run.

Maybe this is just the difference between and "casual" raid guild and a "hardcore" raid guild. If it works for you, I guess, why not?

tlbj6142
10-29-2008, 10:07 AM
How do such drakonian guilds manages to maintain ranks and recruit? I know our guild has not lost anyone (that I'm aware of) in months. We've only added a few players (friends of friends) as we are also in "no recruit" mode as well.

We've been at 120+ accounts and 300+ toons since May (old GL left, so several left and/or were kick'd out by the new GL at this time). And the "no raid pugs" rule has been in place since July(?). It seems most are content with the rule and new guild leadership (5-6 GLs).

Rorgg
10-29-2008, 03:29 PM
There's no problem in theory with differentiating between Bear-druid and Cat-druid as different specs for loot. I, in fact, suggested such a system for the guild I was in pre-BC as a way of actually being allowed to be a feral raider (what a difference, eh?) without stepping on Rogue toes.

But 3.0 brought in a pretty major change, to wit:
But it should be stated that Feral DPS and Feral Tanking gear will be near identical in the expansion. The only difference you might see is in the necks, rings and trinkets. Expect tanks to use rings with armor on them. Expect DPS to use more agility, hit, crit or expertise.
For all I know, husbakitty may not have known that. I've replaced a good half or more of my actual armor pieces in my tank kit since 3.0 came out -- some of it came directly from my DPS set item now being a better tank item than my old tank set. In other cases, they're new items, but ones that wouldn't have replaced the old versions due to green armor values that are now gone.

I was in my DPS kit on a raid boss a couple nights ago and the Warrior was having some PC problems, so I had to pick up the tanking mid-fight. Previously, that probably would have been a death sentence -- my DPS kit (plus Earthwarden) just wasn't sufficient to tank. But now, with the focus of the tanking power coming more from talent than gear, and with the sets overlapping so much more, I was essentially out only the armor from my rings, trinkets, and cloak -- probably 90%+ as effective as I'd have been in full tank kit.

Anyway, the policy's still a reasonable one. Your guild (and that spouse) just need to realize that the definition of bear tank gear has shifted and that there's a lot more overlap.

Rorgg
10-29-2008, 03:34 PM
How do such drakonian guilds manages to maintain ranks and recruit?
[...]
Maybe this is just the difference between and "casual" raid guild and a "hardcore" raid guild. If it works for you, I guess, why not?
Pretty much nailed it on the head. Their drive powers advancement, and the loot and position in advancement gives them the cachet to pull people who want that kind of gaming experience.

Way back in the misty reaches of EQ, I was in a cutting-edge guild that was clearly the top on the server, and probably top-5 gamewide. It was at least 4-5 raids a week and long ones at that. And the people queued up to get in -- there was a long and pretty severe trial period and examination to get in.

Now that I'm old and have a kid, I couldn't do that sort of thing even if I wanted to, but I got a distaste for it long ago, after I skipped raiding one night to run some quests with my wife on an alt. The next night, I was accosted by a guildmate for being online but not attending the raid.

I told him he could stuff his ideas of what I *needed* to do with my time up his rear, and left the guild (in fact the game) shortly thereafter. The more casual playstyle is a better fit for me anyway (and was a reason I jumped to WoW during the beta).

Kheldar
10-30-2008, 05:03 AM
The situation i was talking about above - ie if you were online and the raid was short you were expectedc to attend was in the old days of 40 mans.

so it was probably a little harder to always fill the raids for a medium size guild of the time....

it did not happen very often but sometimes it would if we'd been having a tough time at progress and wiping a lot and i mean a lot then the enthusiasm to come to another 4 hr raid lessened and we might obnly end up with 35-37 signups. but come raid time at least 4-5 people would be online doing pvp/farming/levelling alts etc

and they were then expected to come to the raid.

it was always an issue and i am sure it still is of balancing progression (which used to be = hardcore ) versus those of us with some semblance of RL who want to raid as part of life only not instead of life.....

although with the size guilds people seem to be talking about in this thread you should have no problem finding 25 people ! i think we had about 60-65 people in the days of 40 mans and tbh it was not that often we struggled.

Solarflash
10-30-2008, 07:43 AM
although with the size guilds people seem to be talking about in this thread you should have no problem finding 25 people ! i think we had about 60-65 people in the days of 40 mans and tbh it was not that often we struggled.

Our biggest hang up with a casual guild is not finding 25 willing participants but 25 willing and capable participants. The big downside to the casual raid environment is that you lose the min/max mentality that helps drive raid success, especially in T5+ content when the fights are not only gear checks but also strategy/execution checks.

It never fails that in our 25 mans, we have someone's spouse or best friend or whatever who is mediocre at best, but their reference comes from a crucial asset to the team.

I know for your guild 10-man raiding is going to be the future. We normally have 25-40 characters online at a time, but usually only 15 or so of those toons are raid ready (both gear/wow maturity).

Kheldar
10-30-2008, 08:38 AM
Wow is still not casual raid friendly, as I think you prove above Solar.

Maybe Wrath will achieve this with 10 man versions of 25 man dungeons ?

I know i could not sit now for 4 hrs 2/3 times a night and raid again. i just dont have the inclination or enthusiasm (regardless of the fact i dont have the time either with a baby etc).

Back then i'd come home from work by 5 and be online before 6pm getting myself ready for the raid, checking pots/repairs etc etc ready to be at MC or BWL etc by 6:45 for invites. Raid start at 7pm and finish at 11pm !

So now i do enjoy heroics and maybe...but just a maybe i'll be albe to do some 10 mans stuff later in wrath.

Solarflash
10-30-2008, 08:54 AM
Wow is still not casual raid friendly, as I think you prove above Solar.
[...]
I know i could not sit now for 4 hrs 2/3 times a night and raid again. i just dont have the inclination or enthusiasm (regardless of the fact i dont have the time either with a baby etc).


I think raid has morphed a bit since you last got into it. For example, both of the current 10-man, even pre patch could be done in <3hrs. My guild, when they first started in kara would run it over two nights 2-2.5 hours a night. I think the raid flexibility is really guild dependent. Also, Gruul and Mags can be done in <1 hr each.

Since patch, many raids take less time than heroics. ZA is a 2 hour max run now, and thats if you aren't racing timers. With a 10 min break after timers last night it took us about 1.5 hours. Not an uber team either, we had several alts/fillers.

I really think WotLK raid will be more "casual" friendly, but I also think you need your BT or SWP raids that are not "casual-friendly" in order to satisfy those who want to raid 4 hours a night 5 days a week. Not my style, but I won't fault them for it.

There was a time in my life that I thought hanging out at a bar with "the fellas" 3 nights a week was a good allocation of time, so I have to say...each to their own. WoW is not just a video game, but instead a hobby. Some will devote a portion of their free time, others will make extra time for it.

I really would love to see a better "Looking for Guild" system in place. Since I think the enjoyment of WoW is based far more on the guild you are in than anything else.

I went through several guilds before I found my home, and the game has never been as enjoyable as it is now.

tlbj6142
10-30-2008, 09:12 AM
Our biggest hang up with a casual guild is not finding 25 willing participants but 25 willing and capable participants. The big downside to the casual raid environment is that you lose the min/max mentality that helps drive raid success,This is our biggest problem. While I only know Druid and Hunter specs, we have plenty of both that have no clue what they are doing. And I have watched many other players barely being able to do white damage during a fight. We may have 130+ accounts, but only ~20 "know what they are doing".

Until this past weekend when I was invited to run with the "big boys" of the guild, I've never finish a Kara run in 1 day. Most would die-out at Aran after 4 hours. If we were lucky we'd try the next night and maybe see prince. We always skipped Netherspite ("its too hard"). Though now that I have fought him twice, it is far easier than most of the other bosses in Kara.

I still need 494 rep to get to exalted, I tried solo'ing trash last night but that was a big failure. I'm gonna miss the next two weekends and the first week the XPac is out. So, I'm hoping I can beg a few to help me clear some trash for the last few points. As the Kara tanking ring is a top 5-6 ring even in LK due to its high armor and +sta.

Solarflash
10-30-2008, 09:18 AM
[...]I still need 494 rep to get to exalted, I tried solo'ing trash last night but that was a big failure. I'm gonna miss the next two weekends and the first week the XPac is out. [...]


Do it man, you know you want to. Just PuG it!!! You will find most people in the PuG are better than your "big boys". Sneak on in the middle of the night so they won't catch you!:grin:

Rorgg
10-30-2008, 10:26 AM
We always skipped Netherspite ("its too hard"). Though now that I have fought him twice, it is far easier than most of the other bosses in Kara.

Ahh Netherspite. Thing about Netherspite is that from a gearing perspective, it's really, really easy. You could send a 10-man in blues in and take down Netherspite if they knew the fight. It's all about small-group teamwork and contingency adjustment.

By far my favorite fight in Karazhan.

Kheldar
10-30-2008, 10:28 AM
I think raid has morphed a bit since you last got into it. For example, both of the current 10-man, even pre patch could be done in <3hrs. My guild, when they first started in kara would run it over two nights 2-2.5 hours a night. I think the raid flexibility is really guild dependent. Also, Gruul and Mags can be done in <1 hr each.
.......


interesting Solar.

i am out so out of date on raiding ! we used to spend 2 4 hr raids in BWL in the old days. but yes in the end we would clear MC in 3hrs and BWL in not much more i guess.

i'd not realised ZA/Kara could be done so quick although i guess thats down to having run it a lot and having good gear - ie people doing them are t5+ geared ? rather than more new people with poorer gear ?

these days 2 hrs is about my limit for a raid of any kind i reckon. pugging some heroics a while ago could need 2 hrs for the bigger ones and i'd have had enough come 2hrs ! i remember a slow heroic Bot with dps who were somewhat low and that took over 2hrs and man did it drag.

whereas in my old raiding guild of the 65 lvl 60's i would have said 60 were easily capable of being in the raid.

tlbj6142
10-30-2008, 10:38 AM
i'd not realised ZA/Kara could be done so quick although i guess thats down to having run it a lot and having good gear - ie people doing them are t5+ geared With 10 (wouldn't have been surprised if 1-2 were semi-afk) folks in T4/badge/pvp gear we finished kara last weekend in 3 hours. Could have been faster but we took a few afk breaks.

If you can get 6-7 folks that know what they are doing you ought to be able to run thru it. Give it a try this weekend, it will be fun, if not something different for your guild.

You barely need 2 tanks, only 1-2 times did we use 2. And 2 good healers. Any DPS will do. No CC required now. Burst DPS >> CC for the few times it use to be needed (namely moroes fight).

Solarflash
10-30-2008, 10:50 AM
i'd not realised ZA/Kara could be done so quick although i guess thats down to having run it a lot and having good gear - ie people doing them are t5+ geared ? rather than more new people with poorer gear ?


Lol, no T5. I main tanked a run just after the patch in mostly blues (maybe 2-3 badge/crafted epics) and did a full clear in <3hours. The rest of the team was PuG'd so I don't know there gear specifically, but I ended up being 3rd on the overall damage meter (<3 new AoE tanking), so I don't think they were anything special. That being said, most knew the boss fights, so I assume they were alts, etc. and we didn't have a lot of dumb mistakes. (I know 1 or our 3 healers was in almost full greens, because I remember cringing a little before we started)

I have found the two biggest time waisters in raids are: fight explanation and loot. Thanks to new talents, most everything T4 or lower is now a tank and spank, and loot is much easier now that everything is either Melee or Caster.

Kheldar
10-30-2008, 10:51 AM
hehe then we need to recruit more people :p

tlbj6142
10-30-2008, 11:00 AM
hehe then we need to recruit more people :pI thought you had 5-7? Pick-up a couple more and you're set.

Destinae
10-30-2008, 04:34 PM
Wow. I missed a lot :(

I was on a hiatus from everything WoW related because of the whole BOATLOAD of drama from Kara. OMG! It's made me want to cancel my account and delete ALL of my characters!!!

Oh, and husdruid got the horseman's reins last night...which is exciting!!! I didn't believe it actually dropped ever! I get suckered into tanking it NIGHTLY...and usually the guildies rotate all of their lvl 70 alts through, so you're talking an hour and a half or more worth of tanking Headless Horseman...UGH!!! :banghead:

So, grats for him and stuff....

Oiysters
10-30-2008, 04:46 PM
I'm not one to try to convince people to continue playing WoW in general; when it's time for someone to go they should go. However, I would not recommend you let the (hopefully one-time) drama with loot between you and your hubby sour your whole experience.

Clear loot rules and boundaries ftw.

Imo your hubby needs to man up and help you get your bear geared before he takes care of himself. And if WoW continues to be a source of stress between you, by all means quit. RL > WoW.

Oiysters
10-30-2008, 04:53 PM
Do it man, you know you want to. Just PuG it!!! You will find most people in the PuG are better than your "big boys". Sneak on in the middle of the night so they won't catch you!:grin:

For cereal.

I have alot of teachers in my family; your situation makes me think of schools where they dumb down the curriculum so that slower learners "get the same opportunities" as the faster learners becasue they are all in the same classroom. The unintended consequence is the that faster learners get shafted because they never get to develop to their full potential or achieve anything great.

Not to mention all the knowledge you could bring home to your guild to help the slower learners progress at a faster rate.

skwidrific
10-30-2008, 05:03 PM
For cereal.


SUPER cereal? o.O

Kheldar
10-31-2008, 03:58 AM
I thought you had 5-7? Pick-up a couple more and you're set.
we lost 2 good 70's 10 days ago both had more than 1 70 and one had just got a 70 tank and the other a healer which hurt us :(

so i guess we now really got 4-5 with 1 healer and 1 tank.

its all gonna change with levellling to 80 anyways and my time seems to be getting less for wow so who knows....

Solarflash
10-31-2008, 09:14 AM
we now really got 4-5 with 1 healer and 1 tank.


Wow, thats a small guild! Have you considered a guild alliance?

My second guild was a small group of family and friends that I somehow got sucked into...not really sure how that happened. But non the less, they were/are great people. But we could barely fill a 5 man most nights and eventually wanted to try Kara. We found another smaller guild and worked together. We made lots of good friends and had some good times.

Make sure you have a clear understanding of management and loot expectations before you step into and instance though!

Kheldar
10-31-2008, 09:40 AM
basically Solar its cos i left the game last yr for 6 months.

came back and got to know a couple of people. 1 especially came and joined me in a guild of 2 !

he was a healer and i'm a tank so we had no issue pugging places as we geared up.

over the months we gained a few more people who were like us and did not have hours and hours to raid in a 'proper' guild.

and that's how its been since. gain a couple then lose a couple as their circumstances alter.

in the old old days days of original wow i tried to do a guild alliance and found it fraught wrt to raid times / loot / raid class makeup / gm and officer balance etc

and tbh i cannot commit to doing anything on a regular basis so it would not work for me anyway.

hence i just do heroics when i can with guildies and other friends as opposed to full pugs.

Destinae
11-05-2008, 03:50 PM
So I get frustrated and take a week long "vacation" from the boards and the game, and I just...got so behind!

I've got so much Druiding to read about now! Pulling and using Nature's grasp to CC...zoinks! I need to stay in the loop more. I feel really really behind right now!