View Full Forums : Determining the best gear Stats?


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Destinae
09-09-2008, 12:06 PM
Are there websites that teach you to evaluate gear on your own?

Here's the example on why I am asking...

I'm a lvl 57 Feral Druid. Last night a guild mate sent me the Scavenger's Cloak of the Bandit, I believe it was http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25033 (+12 Agility, +18 Stamina, +24 Attack Power).

In our guild chat, another guild member mentioned that The Perfectly Balanced Cloak http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25712
Was better...

I realize that the armor increase is always a plus, but I am trying to learn how to evaluate stats in order to determine the best gear. I'm heading toward being our guild's OT for Raid runs, but because it's a helper guild, I want to learn how to evaluate all kinds of stats on gear to help our pallies, shamans, warriors, etc. Is there some sort of guide to follow?

Hoping you can help!

Destinae - Lvl 57 Feral Druid - Durotan

skwidrific
09-09-2008, 12:35 PM
this doesn't quite answer your questions, this is just a suggestion... if you're 57, and you haven't gotten at least a couple of different sets of gear going already, now would be a great time to start... i think i started collecting for different sets around the mid-30's... 1 for bear, 1 for kitty, and 1 for healer... but the difference between what would would be good for bear and what would be good for kitty can jusitfy keeping both cloaks... some items are definitely interchangable between bear and kitty, too

last suggestion: get outfitter! it's a godsend for us druids who carry around 4 different sets of gearz (bear set, kitty set, healer set, and mah Pee Vee Pee set)

Annikk
09-09-2008, 01:23 PM
As Skwidrific says, getting an addon like Outfitter, or Item Rack, will help a lot with juggling multiple sets of gear. With that said, you will basically replace all of your gear upon entering Outland anyway.

In this instance, the Perfectly Balanced Cape is clearly better since it has 3 more agility, 4 more stamina, and 6 more attack power.


For evaluating your stat requirements, keep in mind what it is you are gearing for - see the list below for a rough guide to the stats you want for different stuff:



Stats in order of importance, from most to least. Remember it is always best to go for a BALANCED MIX of stats!

Cat:

Level 1 - 62 (before you get your first "+Feral Attack Power" weapon)
Strength/Attack Power
Agility
Crit rating
Stamina

Level 62 - 70 (after you get your first "+Feral Attack Power" weapon)
Feral Attack Power (on weapon)
Agility
Crit rating
Strength/Attack Power
Stamina
Hit Rating

Level 70 (early raiding gear)
Feral Attack Power (on weapon)
Agility
Hit Rating
Strength/Attack Power
Stamina
Expertise Rating


Level 70 (raiding SSC/TK and beyond)

Feral Attack Power (on weapon)
142 Hit Rating
Expertise
Agility
Crit rating
Strength/Attack Power
Stamina



Bear:

Level 1 - 62
Equally balance Agility, Armor, Stamina.

Level 62 - 70
Equally balance Agility, Armor, Stamina, and Feral Attack Power (on weapon).
Defense Skill / Resilience

Level 70 Raiding
Enough Defense Rating and/or Resilience to reach the crit cap
As above, Agility/Armor/Stamina/Feral AP
Dodge Rating
Expertise
Hit Rating




To all: criticisms, comments or questions on the weightings I have chosen are welcome. :>


-Annikk

tlbj6142
09-09-2008, 02:05 PM
For bear, I'd mention "Required +def and/or +res to be uncritable" as the #1 entry for "Level 70 Raiding".

Also...Cat 1-62 and 62-70 are dead on (though crit rating is a fairly poor stat, it might be "better" to put AP/Str above crit rating in your 62-70 list). I'd add a sub-title to the first two Cat sections "Cat (leveling gear)".

Destinae
09-09-2008, 03:01 PM
Wow! Thank you guys so much!

Skwidrific, I carry two sets of gear right now. I have my kitty gear and my bear gear. For kitty- I've been mainly focusing on Agi, +AP, and strength...for Bear I've been carting around the Stam, Str gear. I don't do much Pee Vee Pee at all (I'm just not good at it and I just get frustrated).

I'm definitely going to get the addons ASAP.

The reason I asked though, is sometimes in our guild, a player will link two pieces of armor- and our guildmates will guide them to pick one over the other, but I never think to ask "why is this better than that?"

Sometimes they actually pick the complete opposite of the item I'd have picked...which is what brought me here.

It's nice to have a group of Druids, Feral and otherwise, to be able to ask these newbish questions to. (Yes, Destinae is my first Character...Ultimately, I want to turn her into a lean, mean, tanking machine!)

Hopefully I'll be able to get some guidance from you all...that is...if you don't mind my long-winded newbiness =/

Thanks again!

PS: Why would a feral druid carry resto/balance gear?

OH! And the other question - I was advised by an "uber tank" on our server to make sure to equip some Intel gear and I don't understand why. He really didn't have a great answer for me...he said "For shape shifting or something...I dunno" That's all he really said. Any idea why a rough'n'tumble bear or kitten would need intel if we don't use mana?

I was also asking because I'm trying to learn to decipher the stats on my own, rather than relying on my guild for their opinion and tutelage...I'd also like to find out of there's some sort of guide for those of us to learn what each of the stats does, how it's helpful, etc for any kind of character from Mages to warriors...(But Des will always be my Tanking Queen!)

Allahanastar
09-09-2008, 04:52 PM
Ok here's why I keep a healing set on me at all times... some times in raiding you just need that extra healer. Not a full healer, but someone to cover the gap. I always keep a healing set so if I'm not needed to tank or DPS or whatever I can cover the "gap" in healing. A great example is the nightbane fight. You can do every other fight in KZ with an experienced group with just two healers. However that fight the tank just takes a PISS TON of damage. So that extra healer just feels necessary. So a lot of times I swap from tank to healer for that fight since you only need one tank for the fight.

When I was leveling up I did fill in as a healer from time to time as well. Ferals can heal most instances before the level 70 instances if they've got a healing set.

Sytaera
09-09-2008, 05:13 PM
Um, for the int gear it's really questionable. If you're going to be off-tank yes, int is good because you'll probably be shifting a lot, possibly tossing out heals. Most druid gear has int stats on it though so you don't generally need to go out of your way for pure int gear.

For just tanking, it's probably not as important except for when you pull with spells. I rarely shift while tanking unless it's power shifting because I'm out of rage and I only do that before pulls.

Also, while I'd sort of steer away from carrying a balance set as a feral, a resto set can always come in handy. As Allahanastar said, ferals can also easily heal instances in a healing set up to heroics (especially with nuturing instinct).

I healed SLabs and Steamvaults as feral with a horrible healing set. =x But yes, it can really help sometimes to toss on a healing set and off heal for some fights especially in raids.

Oiysters
09-09-2008, 08:52 PM
Annikk was spot on, as usual. To really understand the math behind the game, read www.elitistjerks.com. The Class Mechanics forum will tell you everything you need to know about every class as far as the numbers are concerned, including how the math will change in the upcoming patch. I used to recommend www.wowwiki.com as well, but I've found that site a couple of patches behind in its info on several things I've researched.

There are also several blogs out there that are very well researched and have excellent (and more accessible) info for each class: www.resto4life.com, www.bigbearbutt.com, www.bigredkitty.com for hunters, www.wowmb.com for warlocks...you get the idea.

Also, until patch 3.0 comes out, intel is useful in kitty for powershifting.

Annikk
09-10-2008, 04:55 AM
for Bear I've been carting around the Stam, Str gear.

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but bear druids actually don't get much at all out of strength. It's much better to get Agility instead of Strength, because while strength only gives you some attack power, Agility increases your attack power, dodge, crit, and armour values.


PS: Why would a feral druid carry resto/balance gear?

Because as a druid, you can fulfill a variety of roles, and even specced feral you can still make a pretty awesome stop-gap healer if you have the right gear for it.
Likewise, some fights might be very tricky for melee dps, so you might wish to use your balance gear to temporarily become ranged dps. The reason for carrying the different types of gear is so that you can shift roles.

It's up to each druid to decide what types of gear he/she carries around with them. For me, I carry tank, dps, healing, and pvp gear with me at all times. I also have spell damage gear, fire resist gear, and shadow resist gear, however these stay in the bank most of the time to conserve bag space.


I was advised by an "uber tank" on our server to make sure to equip some Intel gear and I don't understand why. He really didn't have a great answer for me...he said "For shape shifting or something...I dunno" That's all he really said. Any idea why a rough'n'tumble bear or kitten would need intel if we don't use mana?

Intellect is primarily useful for pvp druids. This is so that you have a bigger mana pool, allowing you to do more shapeshifts, heals, cyclones, or whatever. When fighting in pvp, a lot of classes try to wear feral druids down by forcing them to expend a lot of mana shapeshifting. I'm sure you know already that a feral druid stuck in caster form with no mana is pretty useless - so getting more intellect means it would take them longer to wear you down. Hopefully long enough for you to rip them a few new orifices =)

For pve, intellect is less useful, unless you know you will be in a situation that requires a lot of shapeshifting or spell casting.



For bear, I'd mention "Required +def and/or +res to be uncritable" as the #1 entry for "Level 70 Raiding".

Ah... of course. Updated. :>


Also...Cat 1-62 and 62-70 are dead on (though crit rating is a fairly poor stat, it might be "better" to put AP/Str above crit rating in your 62-70 list). I'd add a sub-title to the first two Cat sections "Cat (leveling gear)".

My reasoning for having crit chance above strength is that from level 62 onwards, most druids will start to pick up weapons that give Feral Attack Power. The amount of attack power you gain from these weapons is so huge, that it instantly decreases the appeal of the relatively tiny extra attack power gained from strength. When your weapon gives you 500 attack power, and you can choose between a +8 strength gem (giving a whopping ~16 attack power) or a +8 crit rating gem, in my mind you clearly will get more bang for your buck with the 8 crit rating.

I will update the titles of those sections a bit to make it clearer what I mean.


-Annikk

Destinae
09-10-2008, 09:40 AM
I'm really starting to feel like a newbie in here...

But, it's good to know that I can stop looking for strength on armor pieces and just go Agi. I was told Str was better for bear and agi for cat, but seems more like Agi is just a better all around feral stat. Good to know.

I haven't set up a powershift macro yet. I wasn't sure exactly what the best one to use is (I've seen a few different versions) and I've tried to set up a tanking macro, just to get a feel for it, and it didn't work. I had some trouble with the cooldown issue, and trying to tweak it according to the site I got it from just made matters worse.

Do you have recommendations on the best threat building/aggro holding tank macros?

Is it possible to be an amazing tank without the macros?

I can't wait. Maybe I'm a little twisted, but I love playing meat shield. It's my favorite roll to play. I don't mind healing so much. But it's too focus intensive, especially when you're stuck with the PuG from hell. >:( But that was also healing in Tanking Gear - so...maybe that's why it was so difficult. I don't even have the first bit of healing gear...so maybe now I'll pick a bit of it up and hopefully it'll help some. I'm not really that interested in balance at all, but I assume if I'm in caster form and need to throw a few spells down for DPS- the resto gear would help more than my fuzzy feral gear anyway.

Really wanted to take some time to thank you all for your help. You guys are the greatest! Hopefully I'll be able to post later on with stories of victory that, without your guidance, I would not be able to tell!

So, thank you all again. I'm trying to find the time to read all of the posts here. Lots of incredible information and tips. But it's reading like a Stephen King novel- an incredible read, but SO many pages!

Much love!

Annikk
09-10-2008, 11:00 AM
You are quite welcome, druid :> Just between you and I, I am so obsessed with druids, and my friends are sick of hearing about them! So it's nice to be able to come here and talk about them all I like without anyone getting annoyed :>


But, it's good to know that I can stop looking for strength on armor pieces and just go Agi. I was told Str was better for bear and agi for cat, but seems more like Agi is just a better all around feral stat. Good to know.

Until you get your first weapon with +Feral Attack Power, strength remains very slightly better, point for point, than agility, for levelling in Cat Form. So don't discard all your strength gear just yet - perhaps some of it can be useful for cat gear. :>


I haven't set up a powershift macro yet. I wasn't sure exactly what the best one to use is (I've seen a few different versions) and I've tried to set up a tanking macro, just to get a feel for it, and it didn't work. I had some trouble with the cooldown issue, and trying to tweak it according to the site I got it from just made matters worse.

Oiysters posted a link to a good powershifting macro here (http://thedruidsgrove.org/wow/forums/showthread.php?t=12796). I haven't tested it, but EJ stuff is usually pretty spot on.. :>

My advice though would be to forget powershifting for now - it's really only something you need to know about once you are in a raid situation. Even then, it's only useful in situations where it is acceptable to sacrifice a huge amount of mana for a tiny bit of extra dps. For levelling there is really no need for it at all, and when the new talents go live Powershifting will be a thing of the past anyway. :>


Do you have recommendations on the best threat building/aggro holding tank macros?

There is only one macro I would really suggest, and that is one that casts Mangle and also activates your autoattack. This is useful so that if you have just switched targets to the next mob, and you have not enough energy/rage to do a Mangle, you won't simply stand there like a lemon waiting - you'll do a normal, "white damage" attack, which in turn gives you rage, helps to get prompt aggro, and generally makes your tanking life easier and more intuitive.

There is a great thread here (http://thedruidsgrove.org/wow/forums/showthread.php?t=12548) with some good druid macros for you to check out. :>


Is it possible to be an amazing tank without the macros?

Yes. I use very few macros for tanking. It's more just about technique, and understanding threat, taunt mechanics, and things like that. The best strategy is to just dive in and have a go - then let us know what problems you faced, and we will try to help :>


-Annikk

tlbj6142
09-10-2008, 11:22 AM
The only macros I use while tanking simple ones like Annikk mentioned to start auto attack when hit the button...

So, I have /startattack followed by /cast maul, or /cast swipe or /cast mangle or /cast lacerate.

And I have one that does the same for FFF. /startattack, /cast FFF.

And, of course, a bear potion macro. This allows you to shift out drink a potion, use a healthstone, etc. and back to bear in a tenth of a sec. Use only in case of extreme emergency. If you are the last one standing and the mob is at 1% health sort of thing.

Wait, one more. I have a single use trinket macro that I have available in all forms...

/use 13
/use 14

Until I had that, I rarely remembered to use my trinkets. Now I just mash my "G" key and I know they will go off if the cooldowns are up.

Oiysters
09-10-2008, 06:20 PM
There is a bear tanking macro in the EJ powershifting thread, but it's not one that anyone would consider 'necessary'. I like it because it allows me to one button spam (big number pad + button ftw) mangle and lacerate which makes it easier for me to pay attention to the other things that are going on around me. I modified the castsequence reset from 6 to 1 in that macro, I found that I was able to get mangle up more quickly after the cd was up, but ymmv based on your playstyle, latency, and the input lag on your comp.

Also, there is value to reading the entire powershifting thread. There is a bit of an art to arriving at the right energy threshhold for your playstyle, latency, armor set bonuses, and input lag and the threshholds listed on the front page of the powershifting thread may or may not be ideal for you. If nothing else you will gain an understanding how those things impact other aspects of the game for you even after powershifting goes away in a couple of months.

Sytaera
09-10-2008, 07:41 PM
I've been tanking a while now and I think I do fairly well without macros. I have a simple macro to use a healthstone/healing pot while in bear and that's about it. Aside from that I pretty much just assign hotkeys and go at it. Power shifting to tank isn't really useful to be honest I feel, especially when you're early on tanking because your mitigation/reduction is a bit lower so you get smacked quite a bit more.

Personally I find the only times I ever power shift are DPS cat. For tanking macros really, I can't think of anything except I know some druids use a mouse-over lacerate macro. Personally I don't because knowing my luck the second I clicked I'd accidentally mouse over something that was CCed -_-; I find it much easier to tab or just click and hit my lacerate key.

Basically, I think you should just go give it a shot and find what works for you. =)

Good luck on your tanking!

Destinae
09-11-2008, 08:50 AM
For a few days now, I've been thinking I was a Druid Failure because I couldn't find lacerate in my spell book and it wasn't on assigned a hot key. Today I feel less like a Druitard because I learned you don't even get that ability until level 66. PHEW!

To Annikk, I am glad to have found a community where I can engage in Druid Talk and people know what I'm talking about and don't just roll their eyes and tune me out. Destinae is my first character ever on WoW, and my beloved main. I have 2 others that, a Night Elf Warrior and a Draenei Mage (chosen for Gift of the Naaru specifically because she's smooshy).

Does anyone here think it's worth it to switch from 300+ Herbalism & Alchemy to Elemental Leatherworking at this point? Or just hold out now for the rewards in Outlands?

Allahanastar
09-11-2008, 08:58 AM
Um I'd stick with Alchemy.. Honestly Alchemy is just a godsend... lots of good stuff you can sell there too. Plus... in about a month EVERYONE is going to pay a mint for every herb they can buy... so stockpiling herbs and selling them at almost any level is going to be very profitable as everyone will be speed leveling their inscription.

tlbj6142
09-11-2008, 09:38 AM
in about a month EVERYONE is going to pay a mint for every herb they can buy.Ssssh! Quiet! I thought I was the only one planning on doing that....

I have 2.5 toon's bags and bank filled with flowers!

Destinae
09-11-2008, 11:32 AM
You know though, I've been thinking about that and have been stockpiling herbs...not sure what I'm doing with the Death Knight yet when it becomes available. I love Alchemy, mainly because any time my alts need anything (especially the warrior...grrr) I can just send it down to them and we're golden. I don't have to waste coin at the AH or vendors to get them helpful potions and elixirs.

If only the bank vaults were larger.../sigh

I guess it's nice to be sanctioned by level 70 guild mates to farm recipes and mats to make them useful potions. Makes a semi-lowbie like me feel useful!

Have any of you decided what you're doing for your Death Knight?

And I heard mention that they'd be splitting the feral talent tree so that you would basically have to choose between feral bear and feral kitty...have any of you heard that? The talent trees don't really seem to reflect that...but I think I'd be so sad...I love playing big bear butt meat shield...but I also love being able to prowl around meowing while I deal quick, high damage blasts in kitten form.

Just thought I'd ask...Being sort of new at this, I'm not always sure I'm really reading the talent tree abilities correctly...

Oiysters
09-12-2008, 12:03 AM
We lose the ability to maximally talent for both bear tanking and cat dps in the new trees...most of us argue that we lose the ability to maximally talent for bear tanking period with the new trees...but that is another thread entirely. ;-)

Destinae
09-12-2008, 12:28 PM
/sigh. I'll give that thread a thorough read then. Just makes you wonder why Blizz feels compelled to make things harder on the druids. We're already a hybrid class, we don't get to wear metal armor...Why not nerf the hunters?

Perhaps I'm biased against hunters, being as I'm close friends with a hunter IRL who thinks a hunter can out-tank a bear. I'm trying to figure out a way to put that to the test. Though, I don't want to have an entire group wipe because of his ego. I suppose as long as I have my gear on, I can save the day for him when he and his pet fail miserably at tanking...

His cat is excellent DPS...that's about it though.

DRUIDS FTW!!!

Nerf the hunters...but again, just my biased opinion. LOL

Sytaera
09-12-2008, 04:44 PM
Perhaps I'm biased against hunters, being as I'm close friends with a hunter IRL who thinks a hunter can out-tank a bear. I'm trying to figure out a way to put that to the test.

...that just made me laugh. A lot. Seriously. Just have him send his cat to go tank Bog Lords in Heroic Coilfang. See how long he lasts that way. =) Hell even regular coilfang.

Allahanastar
09-12-2008, 05:00 PM
That holds true till the next patch.. then pets CAN tank, but have him try it before that... it should be a humbling experience.

tlbj6142
09-12-2008, 11:00 PM
That holds true till the next patch.. then pets CAN tankI know you have a hunter. Me, too, but I haven't played him at all in over a year. As such, I stopped following the tkasomething.com forums. So, is the new BM tree and pet trees really that good? You have real-life (tm) experience with them on the beta?

I had a co-worker that has a T5/6 MM hunter tell me the new stuff sucked unless you were BM.

Annikk
09-13-2008, 08:37 PM
Perhaps I'm biased against hunters, being as I'm close friends with a hunter IRL who thinks a hunter can out-tank a bear. I'm trying to figure out a way to put that to the test. Though, I don't want to have an entire group wipe because of his ego. I suppose as long as I have my gear on, I can save the day for him when he and his pet fail miserably at tanking..

A lot of hunters I have met have issues about not feeling important enough in the groups they join, like they aren't contributing as much to the group as the other members. This is probably the real reasoning behind this wilful ignorance.

Anyway here's what you need to shoot him down, if you so desire:

Bear Druids have always been and always will be better tanks than hunter pets - even Beast Mastery pets.

The reasons for this are many; lets start with stats. An average hunter pet has around 8000 health, which is half that of many decently geared bears. Armor is an issue as well, I believe most hunter pets have 6k armor or less, compared with the 30k many bear druids can pull.

There's also the issue of crits - these nasty damage spikes can instantly destroy a hunter pet, however bear tanks wear special gear with Defense Skill and Resilience that helps to make them immune to critical strikes.

There is also the threat aspect; a hunter pet does generate a fair bit of threat, but it is no substitute for the constant, powerful aggro of a raging bear. Also a hunter pet only has a Growl ability which generates a flat amount of threat - this is not the same as the bear druid Growl ability, which is a Taunt ability - with all the associated taunt mechanics. This means if someone overaggroes the hunter pet, there is nothing the pet can do to get the aggro back apart from continuing to hit the mob and growl at it in the hope the overaggroer will be sensible and temporarily stop dps.

Finally, there's the playstyle aspect. As a tank, you are in amongst the enemy and can see whether they are attacking you, or attacking some hapless rogue. From a hunter perspective, often on the periphery of the battlefield, these things are far from clear, and when split-second reactions are needed to save lives this represents too much of a problem for tanking to be effective.

A hunter pet can be a useful stopgap measure if an offtank is required, but for a Main Tank a bear is a much better choice - for all the reasons listed above.


-Annikk

Allahanastar
09-15-2008, 09:02 AM
Ok I think a lot of people aren't giving the hunter trees a good shake, but as always the BM hunter tree is way way OP right now. When the beta first came out, I went into an instance with a hunter. His pet was ripping agro off me without even trying (and yes his growl was turned off). I tested out a bunch of pets in the beta and tanking pets are insane. They take almost no damage. I had one tank an elite and it was only toward the end of the fight that he really started to get close to dying. DPS pets are a lot more robust now too. Really overall I think a hunter pet could tank some group stuff, but and instance with a pet would be a nightmare of micro management for a hunter. They certainly wouldn't be as good at multi mob tanking as any druid or pally or warrior (or DK), but I expect to see quite a few videos of hunters tanking instances.

I've looked at the other trees, and I think they all have good stuff in them, but the whole reason for a hunter is the pet and right now the novelty of the "exotic pet" is driving everyone to BM. I personally like the DPS of BM, but find the shot rotation of BM to bore the piss out of me so I stopped doing it. My hunter just kind of rots on the side because I find it Soooo boring to play. I have high hopes for a different tree being great dps in the expansion.

Destinae
09-15-2008, 12:31 PM
As far as hunters not feeling like they're contributing...A good Survivalist hunter can be amazing in a group if they're good with their traps. Crowd Control is important, even outside of PvP. I've been in situations where I've been wishing there was a better CC'er in our group even for my little lowbie instances.

I'm not all that familiar with the BM tree, but I did watch some BRK videos on the new pets...WoW! Though, it's going to really upset me, and probably make me want to blow up my PC when I get out-tanked by some hunter's pet. That's gonna be a sad, sad day in druid land for me.

Although, if the pets can really take hits like that and have very little damage, maybe that'll mean lower REP bills for armor for us. That'd make me a happy druid. It's expensive being a tank!

tlbj6142
09-15-2008, 12:43 PM
They certainly wouldn't be as good at multi mob tanking as any druid or pallyI think bear pets have swipe.

Destinae
09-15-2008, 12:46 PM
Well now I have to ask...

Is it true that Feral Druids aren't used as main tanks when you start hitting upper level raids? /heartbroken!

I keep talking to our guild's main tank. They're almost all "beyond" Kara as far as gear and stuff now, so I asked when I'd be able to tank Kara. I didn't get a straight answer. I more or less got "We have a tank. We need an OT." (Which, I'm cool with cuz our guild is awesome). Granted, I still have some levels to go and gear to get...

But is it possible? Is it something that's more or less gear dependent? As in, if you're donning the best druid tank gear available, would you then be considered for MT in something like Kara and beyond?

And if bear pets have swipe and taunts...I'm starting to feel replaced already!

/cry!!!

skwidrific
09-15-2008, 12:57 PM
don't worry if they're telling you to oT kara... IMO druids are MADE for oT'ing raids because it allows us to fill in dps when we don't have to tank... a quick shift to cat, and a click on outfitter for kitty gear, and <bam> you're dps'ing a **** ton more than a prot warrior...

on boss fights, if you're not fighting for aggro on Moroes, or beam dancing on Netherspite, or oT'ing Kil'Rek, you're laying down the pain, or possibly oHi'ing for Nightbane... no worries!

oT'ing is also a GREAT way to learn the trash pulls, such as on the way to Huntsman, Moroes, and Maiden... not that they're particularly tricky, but if an experienced mT is marking, that'll just make the run go faster and more smoothly...

the most important thing is that you're getting inside Kara and gettin teh hawt gearz and BoJ's! :)

Allahanastar
09-15-2008, 01:32 PM
Most raid setups in the way raiding is today do not favor a Druid. Yes its sad, but Blizzard admitted that they planned in BC for Druids to be OT and not MT in the higher end content. I've MT everything in Kara. Its not hard for a druid to do, but there are other classes that are better suited to it. The farther you go the less druids can really actively participate without having to make serious adjustments. They can tank almost anything, but suffer on some fights like Hydross where there aren't good leather crafted sets. I've done some tanking in SSC and TK. I've MT'd Gruul and Mags as well, but its harder on the healers for me to MT than it is for a warrior.

In the expansion Blizzard's made it a statement that they want any tank to be able to MT for a guild.

Oiysters
09-15-2008, 01:40 PM
And, as far as TBC is concerned, there are very few fights you cannot MT as a bear as long as you have the gear. Frequently when the common wisdom is 'a bear can't tank that', what they mean is 'a pally can do it with one hand while our dps is aoe'ing the **** out of everything'.

The bigger challenge may be getting your guild to share MT duties with you if you have a 'guild MT'. People tend to be very protective of 'their' raid spots.

Annikk
09-15-2008, 06:46 PM
It's true that Feral Druids aren't usually the first choice of Main Tank. However, there are situations where you will find yourself tanking a raid boss - even in late game.

Take Bloodboil, in Black Temple, for instance. That boss requires 3 tanks, and aggro will switch between all three of them during the fight. A druid can be one of those tanks, and so there are times when a Feral Druid will indeed be tanking a raid boss.

At the end of the day raid leaders often initially maintain a healthy scepticism of their newer raiders - feral or otherwise. It's up to you how you deal with that. Personally, I see it as a challenge to perform my best and prove to them what a skilled druid can do :> I believe that if you knuckle down and focus on the offtanking role you have been given, you will be noticed - and will soon find yourself tanking bosses that Feral Druids are specifically good at tanking, such as Prince Malchezzar.


-Annikk

Sytaera
09-15-2008, 08:23 PM
I get so annoyed whenever people just say 'Well it's only good with a pally tank.'

Seriously whenever I want to do H Shattered Halls people start whining about how they only do it with Pally Tanks despite the fact I tell them constantly that I have no problems and have been able to do the damned instance and make the timer with 0 CC. Skill > Class

I'm clinging onto hope that LK does us proud and we become formidable raid tanks instead of just OTs or 'our MT Warrior DCed, get the bear on it.'

Destinae
09-16-2008, 10:49 AM
Yeah, I have this sinking feeling I'm going to get asked to think more about resto, versus tanking despite getting the Strat Drop "Idol of Brutality".

I was SO excited to get that drop. It makes me want to cling tenaciously to my desire to tank everything.

My goal for tonight is to figure out WTH happened to my druid. She's weaker than she's ever been. Crits and base hits are lower than normal...When she gets hit, she's taking as much damage as a squishy...

Only thing I can think of is that perhaps I missed a healer piece when I was donning my feral gear. That or she's just feeling defeated after dying 10 times in Stratholme.

Those 10 deaths reaffirmed my dislike for hunters that think they're WAY more amazing than they really are.

Annikk
09-16-2008, 11:43 AM
Don't be disheartened, druid. We all have had bad experiences. Stay true to your ambitions and I guarantee one day you will succeed :>


-Annikk

Destinae
09-16-2008, 11:58 AM
Well, I suppose that this is a positive way to look at it. We get 10 more levels. So, at level 70, maybe I won't main tank Kara. But by golly, at level 80 I should be able to main tank it!

I'm not as disheartened as I am feeling my newbishness more and more. There's all these "ratings" I don't understand. I know that we need a certain base level for certain raids/bosses/etc to be exempt from crits...but a haste rating? Expertise?

When I first started playing the game, I thought for sure I'd be one of those "la-dee-da" players who didn't get serious about anything. But having spent so much time with my druid, you can't help but get attached. And ultimately, you want to be the best tank/heal/dps/Oomkin possible.

I have so infinitely much to learn. If the book doesn't exist, you guys should write the "Druids for Dummies" and mail a copy directly to me.

I'm going to try to learn more about the ratings and stuff as soon as I can. Just so I have the knowledge ahead of time (as I'm not getting much + <insert rating name> % gear just yet.) I think the first +rating gear I got was a helm that increases Defense rating. I didn't even know what to do with myself!

Allahanastar
09-16-2008, 01:06 PM
Ok stop.... back up... there are a lot of high end ratings you just don't need before lvl 70.... let me retrace here for a second.

Hit rating.... hit rating can increase your dps, but don't sacrifice for it. Hit rating is designed for boss mobs who have an inherent chance to miss built in. This is because they count as three levels higher than you. So look at it this way... your weapon skill is say 300, their weapon skill is 315. You need to use hit rating to get your weapon skill to equate to their 315. The same applies to a lot of things. Don't get too hung up on stats till you get to the end game.

Just focus on the core moving into outland
Strength, Agiliy, Stamina
Weapons around lvl 62 should have either, armor and stamina for tanking or stats and +Feral Combat AP.

Crit is nice, but again its a balancing act. If you focus on the core while leveling you'll do fine. Look for rings and trinkets that emphasize what you want to do. You'd be shocked how much distance the lvl 62 tanking ring that drops in Ramparts goes for a druid tank.

Just a quick review for raiding though on stats... this will be somewhat universal using the new "universal" names:

Hit Rating -> If you stack enough of it, you eliminate the chance for attacks or agressive spells to "miss" the target
Spell Penetration -> Only useful for PVP. This reduces the effect of other players resistances to your spells. So if someone stacks 150 Shadow resist, a warlock can stack spell penetration to blast through the 150 shadow resist.
Spell Crit/Critical Strike -> Increases the % chance to get a critical strike.
Resilience -> This is a PVP stat that both reduces the amount of damage you take from a critical hit (spell or melee) it also functions like +defense.
Attack Power -> Just raw upgrade to your attack power. Mostly on Rogues, Fury Warriors, Deathknights and Hunters gear.
Defense Rating -> Defense is how you make up the difference between your 375 Defense skill and the bosses Attack skill. The amount needed differs per class though... so your mileage may vary. Talented properly in the expansion I think we need ZERO Defense Rating. THIS IS FOR TANKING NOT DPS.
Haste Rating -> This affects the GCD (Global Cool Down) of spells as well as how fast they cast. Its a brand new stat you really don't need to worry about unless you deep dive into Sunwell or you are getting into Northrend. Its usefulness greatly varies based on class. It takes OBSCENE levels of haste to even see a 10% decrease in the casting time of a spell.

I think thats the core really. I highly recommend going to a general resource site like www.wowwiki.com to look up any rating or ability on gear you aren't sure of. All of these stats have some sort of conversion to them too.

Destinae
09-16-2008, 01:23 PM
You know so much. It's scary. I'm not all too worried about gear right now. I'm a little more preoccupied with actually hitting 60 and getting out there.

I haven't really been trying to actively seek out gear just yet because in 1/4 level, I'll be getting the outlands gear (which I've been told on SO many occasions is amazing and makes old world gear look weak in comparison).

That's what I'm told anyway. I hope it holds true. I'm not really a math person, so I'm not sure it'll ever make any sense to me.

Claritondeus
09-16-2008, 01:56 PM
Hi Des,

It's true, Outland gear will have roughly double the stats on old world gear. At 58 you can browse the AH for greens 'of the bandit' or 'of the tiger' or 'of the bear' and pick up some outland greens if you want. But really you get a lot of them really quickly upon entering Hellfire Penninsula for free.

A lot of the stuff is overwhelming, but it will start to make sense as you start to accumulate gear. WoW is pretty good about giving quest rewards that point you in the right direction.

Just to add one thing to the list alla put together:

Resilience -> This is a PVP stat that both reduces the amount of damage you take from a critical hit (spell or melee) it also functions like +defense in that it reduces your chance to be critically hit. Resilience also reduces the damage taken from Damage over Time spells (DoT's).

If you have any questions, just throw a "what's this mean" or "this or this and why" post here.

Destinae
09-16-2008, 02:13 PM
I think I'll just hold on to the gear I have and hopefully that will carry me well enough through the quests on Hellfire in order to get ready to tear it up!

You guys have all been absolutely amazing.

I've heard though, that Resilience is more suited for PvP, and not so much PvE...and also have heard that they're basically doing away with it in WotLK. Thoughts?

Allahanastar
09-16-2008, 02:42 PM
As soon as you get into outland you'll get gear upgrades almost every quest or every other.

The biggest issue people had with resilience was that druid tanks had to fill in pieces here and there to remain uncritable. I think the point is that its not necessary anymore in the expansion. I don't think the stat would go away necessary.

Claritondeus
09-16-2008, 03:09 PM
Resiliance is nice for questing and grinding -> not being crit = living longer = more killing things with less downtime.

Now for Pure PvE dps you ideally don't want to be wearing gear with Resil on it, as 1) you shouldn't be getting hit - tank should be taking the dmg while you stand behind the target and shred away, and 2) items are allocated 'stat points' based on their item level. Basically, on PvE gear, you want to have all PvE stats (agi, str, crit, hit), and not 'waste' points on resil. Though there are quite a few pieces out there obtainable through PvP that are quite a bit better for PvE than a lot of the dungeon / quest blues and greens. if its an upgrade, its an upgrade :)

Resiliance is very useful for PvE tanking, as it allows us to get crit-immune easily. Defense is another way to do this, but gear with +resil is easier to get for certain slots than +def. So people were using PvP gear to tank in PvE. +def is the true tanking stat, as it icreases chance to block, parry and reduces being crit. Since druids cannot block or parry, and can only reduce our crit to the point that we are immune to being crit, resil worked just as well as +def (to the chagrin of warriors and pallies). Combined with our huge armor and dodge, we became amazing tanks really quickly using a combo of blue +def gear and epic PvP gear.

Claritondeus
09-16-2008, 03:22 PM
It's true that Feral Druids aren't usually the first choice of Main Tank. However, there are situations where you will find yourself tanking a raid boss - even in late game.

Take Bloodboil, in Black Temple, for instance. That boss requires 3 tanks, and aggro will switch between all three of them during the fight. A druid can be one of those tanks, and so there are times when a Feral Druid will indeed be tanking a raid boss.
-Annikk

Our MT (and guild leader) all the way through BT has been a Druid. He tanked every single fight (except ofc illidan...) just fine. We had NR / FR tanks for Hydross and warriors tank on certain bosses just to mix things up. Druid tanks are definitley viable.

And um, Bloodboil doesn't require three tanks. Just need one tank, then he hits the 5 farthest people from him with his boil. The ranged groups rotate so boil doesnt stack (each taking one boil), then when he changes phases, he randomly targets a group member. It's good to have a second tank that he'll attack if he disorient's the main tank, but donno why it requires three.

Oiysters
09-16-2008, 07:16 PM
Destinae, imo your best plan is to just keep questing. Try to hit 68 by the release date, and then just keep questing and running instances through level 80. Nearly every quest reward will be an upgrade for you, so there is no practical reason for you to stop questing in order to farm an instance for a drop - you'll likely replace that drop soon after you resume questing.

And the best news about the xpac as far as I am concerned is the advent of 10-man versions of all xpac raid instances. Now all but the smallest guilds will have access to end game instances and gear.

Annikk
09-17-2008, 05:11 AM
And um, Bloodboil doesn't require three tanks. Just need one tank, then he hits the 5 farthest people from him with his boil. The ranged groups rotate so boil doesnt stack (each taking one boil), then when he changes phases, he randomly targets a group member. It's good to have a second tank that he'll attack if he disorient's the main tank, but donno why it requires three.

We found that using three tanks helps to make the fight more controllable.
I will tell you why once WotLK hits if you like, but until then it's a guild secret and I'm not allowed to tell :P


-Annikk

Destinae
09-17-2008, 10:09 AM
OOoOOooOoOooh! Guild Secrets!

And yeah, I'm not really going to grind for gear. I had thought about it, but I think the overall frustration would outweigh the positives on that.

Let the level-grind begin!

PvP Super Twink Gear probably would have helped me survive longer in my first "Drunken" Guild Adventure last night. (Some of us were drunk in real life, others just "in game"). But it was a BLAST! I love Ventrilo! ^_^

Claritondeus
09-17-2008, 12:43 PM
We found that using three tanks helps to make the fight more controllable.
I will tell you why once WotLK hits if you like, but until then it's a guild secret and I'm not allowed to tell :P


-Annikk

Not too concerned about your 'guild secrets'...

We've been 1 shotting him since our second attempt a few months back.

Destinae
09-17-2008, 12:53 PM
Uh oh. Keep the gloves on guys. You've got baby druids here who get frightened easily!

/cower

Annikk
09-18-2008, 07:38 AM
Claritondeus,

Sorry if you misconstrued my words to be wilfully keeping something from you, or overly elitist or whatever. I didn't mean it that way at all - my guild genuinely does tell its members not to discuss raid tactics with anyone outside of the guild. They have had the same policy ever since we killed Onyxia way back in the day.

It sounds like you got to Teron way before we did anyway.. :>



Destinae,
Druids never fight! We are all just a bunch of happy tree friends :>


-Annikk

Destinae
09-18-2008, 10:17 AM
Well I'm glad we're all a happy lot of Tree Friends!

I finally hit level 60 last night and I'm so excited! I can't WAIT to start getting better gear! My gear is very much out-of-date for my level, with the exception of my idol and my new cloak.

Outlands better watch out...cuz here I come!

tlbj6142
09-18-2008, 10:25 AM
Outlands better watch out...cuz here I come!Take it easy. I have always found those first 10-15 quests in the HFP a bit difficult due to the high mob density, patrols and fast respawn rate. If you have help they are much easier.

Destinae
09-18-2008, 10:45 AM
I hear the pigs on HFP are the worst because there's almost always one within aggro range. Yes?

I will heed your advice, and hopefully my curiosity and insatiable urge to explore won't get me into trouble in HFP.

I'm still really excited though. I just don't want to meet FelReaver anytime soon. I hear too many horror stories about him.

tlbj6142
09-18-2008, 10:48 AM
I'm still really excited though. I just don't want to meet FelReaver anytime soon. I hear too many horror stories about him.The pigs are annoying, but they aren't really bad, it is the areas of dense mobs that patrol around quest targets that caused me too much grief.

FWIW, the Fel Reaver is sort of cool. It is almost a pleasure to get stomped by him. I hope they have something similar in one of the LK zones.

Destinae
09-18-2008, 12:32 PM
Well, let's hope my encounters with him are as enjoyable as yours have been!

I suppose maybe he'll be similar to the various Devilsaurs in Un'Goro. I could be sitting there, quietly picking flowers, and out of NO WHERE this giant dino foot is smashed against my face. Always entertaining. I never really tried to fight him. Perhaps I should give that a go sometime for posterity's sake?

We have a rogue in our guild who claimed to have One-Shotted Fel Reaver as a level 62 rogue. That's the running joke in guild chat and has been since he proclaimed it a few weeks ago.

tlbj6142
09-18-2008, 12:38 PM
I suppose maybe he'll be similar to the various Devilsaurs in Un'Goro.Those guys are terrifying. Being in that zone is worst than playing on a PvP server. Even more so if you are a pet class. For whatever reason they never seem to visually appear until they are in aggro range! More than once I would find myself looking thru their mouth at my toon, thinking "What the heck is that? Must be some graphics glitch.....Damn!" At least the Fel Reaver makes quite a bit of noise and the ground shake.We have a rogue in our guild who claimed to have One-Shotted Fel Reaver as a level 62 rogue. That's the running joke in guild chat and has been since he proclaimed it a few weeks ago.Actually, anyone can take him out. You just need to pull him over to the casters outside of Thrallmar. They do all the DPS, you just watch.

Destinae
09-18-2008, 12:44 PM
Really...That's something I'll have to remember as I'm dashing for my life!

You'd have to meet this beloved Rogue to understand why we think it's turned into the guild giggle source. We love him dearly, but he tends to exaggerate to try and impress people too much. He's one of the more entertaining character's in our guild for sure though.

Claritondeus
09-18-2008, 01:58 PM
/hug annikk

The most annoying quest in HFP is the Zeth'Gor must burn one... the mobs in there respawn super quick and are all really close together. But the quest reward is a blue chest that will last you to 70 (maybe 68), so its worth it :)

lol@ 1 shotting a Fel Reaver.

I have good memories of solo'ing the big stone guardians in Un'Goro on my druid back when I was 60. Tried to solo a Devilsaur at 60, and that didnt go so well .... Come to think of it, maybe I'll go back and stomp a few of them this weekend just for payback ^^

tlbj6142
09-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Come to think of it, maybe I'll go back and stomp a few of them this weekend just for payback ^^I do that whenever I'm down at CoT. Run over to Un'goro and get even.

Destinae
09-18-2008, 04:26 PM
I tried it at 59, but stupidly picked the Tyrant Devilsaur, level 54 Elite. The Orange/Red one. I'm sure you remember that nightmare.

He fears you and he keeps right up on you stomping you the whole way. Kitty form didn't work (not enough armor I guess) and bear form didn't work (too little damage and dealt too slowly).

Oh, and the other issue with my ambush...I failed to make sure I was pouncing on him in an area clear of other mobs. So, the second time he feared me, I ended up aggroing 2 nearby raptors.

Coincidentally, that's how I learned to use the "attack in cat form to stun and deal some damage, switch to bear to take some damage, pop a healing potion, hit rejuvenation, pop regrowth, back into bear, hit enrage, hit frenzied regen" strategy to survive longer (which I use in bad PuG's when the healer's not doing their job). The unfortunate part is that I started that "Panic Button Strategy" way too late into the battle. I wonder if I could do it now...

I imagine the other fault in my attack strategy is not having MotW and Thorns on. Thorns don't do much damage, but it helps a little.

Allahanastar
09-18-2008, 05:11 PM
Devilsaurs are hard to solo for a druid at close to 60. As a hunter I went back and solo'd one at 58, but you come with a friend so its not bad and you can play agro games with the devilsaur bouncing back and forth between you and your pet.

I think by level 60 a druid should be able to solo a devilsaur especially if they have gear from HFP. With gear from there you should have the survival tools to kick his butt.

I can say that I soloed on the way to 70 A LOT of the group quests. I did almost all of Terokar forests quests. The only one I needed help on was the Big Bone Worm. I solo'd the rest in that area. In Nagrand I soloed all of top Nessingwary quests except for the Bach'lor and the big Elephant. Druids can kind of get away with a lot of stuff by using the strategy of hit hard at the beginning, go bear, stun, heal, go bear again, stun, heal go back to bear... there are a ton of ways you can solo stuff.

I too spent a lot of time at lvl 60 figuring out how to solo the lvl 60-62 elite Stone Guardians. That was a PITA back then, but I really wanted my Cloak of Warding. It was also a lot of fun doing stealth runs at 60 to get the Idol that drops off of Lord Roccor.

Annikk
09-19-2008, 04:32 AM
A well geared feral druid - particularly one with 2 piece tier 5 - can solo a Fel Reaver :>


-Annikk

Kheldar
09-19-2008, 04:59 AM
never tried.

could be time to give it a go....what do youcall well geared Ann....in terms of HP/ar/ dodge/ap etc?

not got t5 but will see how i do !

they 70E's ?

Annikk
09-19-2008, 06:38 AM
They are.

Well geared I would say being full epic gear, at least some of which is from SSC/TK or beyond. No clue on the exact stats..

The main thing to watch out for is the AE warstomp (a stun) that it does. Heal yourself just after the stun, that way you won't get caught in caster form.
It will be pretty hard without instant cast regrowth, though :>


-Annikk

Kheldar
09-19-2008, 08:06 AM
not got anything like that.

all my gear is badge/crafted tbh as i dont raid. i think everything is almost epic but not quite....a blue or 2

Destinae
09-19-2008, 08:51 AM
Allahanastar, you farmed the mats and had a tailor friend make it for you? That cloak looks pretty awesome. How long did it carry you before you replaced it?

Kheldar
09-19-2008, 10:27 AM
was the cloak of warding the one with about 214 armour ? a blue one ?

if so i had one for absolutely ages pre BC.

Destinae
09-19-2008, 10:51 AM
<tt><html></tt>Kheldar it was the <tt><a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?item=18413">Cloak of Warding</a> that Allahanastar had referred to.

I wonder if I don't switch gear too often, but I only do so to experiment.

Got some CRAZY kitty crits last night for level 60 unbuffed while out beating Furbolgs in Winterspring for rep questing there. The biggest was 1832 with my </tt><tt><a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?item=17774">Mark of the Chosen</a>

Good times. But the unbuffed ones were ranging between 1700-1760 (Ferocious Bite, of course) ^_^

Actually, getting back to gear...Do you all feel you have to both PvP AND Raid for solid gear for tanking/dps? Is it better to just raid? Better to just PvP? If you think one's better than the other for getting gear, can you let me know why?

Durotan is a PvE Normal server. I just want to make sure I know what my game plan <i>should</i> be for end or near-end game gear. Thanks so much!
</html>
</tt>

Kheldar
09-19-2008, 11:27 AM
yep thats the one i got many many moons ago for tanking.

i dont remember replacing it until i ended up buying the Resolute Cape from the AH at lvl 70 ! However i did not do a massive amount of instancing whilst levelling as was in such a small guild.

something good to replace it with would be the Thoriumweave one from Mech which iirc drops in normal as well as heroic ?

If you're serious about raiding then you will need to get the appropriate pve gear and not rely on pvp gear. There are a couple of pvp items which can help you get started on a raid gear set but the 2 sets of gear do have differing stats as has been discussed previously.

ie more stam and some int/+heal on pvp items whilst the 'proper' raiding items tend to have things like +hit or expertise or def that are more useful/needed in a raid.

ie in the longer term PVP gear is for PVP and PVE gear is for PVE/Raiding but some items of pvp gear can be a good starter whilst u gear up via Kara etc....

Destinae
09-19-2008, 11:45 AM
That's a relief, to be honest. I'd much rather storm instances a thousand times and spend hours and hours grinding them than hit a battleground or an arena for even half an hour.

I get too frustrated too quickly. Twinks and being relatively knew to the game and not understanding much about kitty strategy in PvP makes the entire battleground thing really difficult to want to do. Not to mention, you can really tear it up in PvE situations, then get into a battle ground and get one-shotted by a rogue...it's very disheartening.

So, I think I'll stay PvE and focus on my tanking as I have been and then once I hit end game, hopefully I'll have some gear that can get me started in the PvP aspect a little more.

Bad idea?

Annikk
09-22-2008, 02:33 AM
1. Use seperate pvp gear from pve gear. These different activities have differing stat requirements.


2. When you first start out pvp'ing, you will get dominated at first. You have to suck it up and die a lot before you can afford to buy the items that will help you to survive, and eventually become a Biological Weapon™. Some pve items can help with this but in general most of it comes from actual pvp.


-Annikk

Allahanastar
09-22-2008, 09:16 AM
Allahanastar, you farmed the mats and had a tailor friend make it for you? That cloak looks pretty awesome. How long did it carry you before you replaced it?

God I had it most of the way till 66 or 68. There are better cloaks much later on, but I kept it in my tanking set for quite a while. Technically I think a better one drops in Slave Pens, but I had HORRID luck getting it to drop.

Destinae
09-23-2008, 11:27 AM
I'll definitely give that a shot and see if I can grab onto that cloak. I'd have to see how that compares to the one I just got.

Outlands is a LOT of fun! I'm learning a lot through trial and error, which, though expensive, is sometimes the best way to learn.

But I'm really frustrated...I know I've read somewhere that you can prowl in and get the Idol of Ferocity from Lord Roccor in Blackrock Depths. I'm aware that there are better ones purchased later on, but I don't PVP much. I'm more curious as to see how this changes my cat form for me.

So, Supposedly you can prowl in there and solo Lord Roccor.

Uh huh.

Me? Not so much. Why? I'm assuming Brewfest?

All of those bloodhounds have these blue bubbles over their heads, which I don't recall seeing the first few times I got pushed into that instance. It's something about tracking thieves.

Ok. So that in and of itself makes this an impossible task. Right?

And I KNOW I've read that you can do this. I thought I saw it here and I've seen a video. Now, WoWhead says that these beasts can see through Stealth.

Another site says they will see you, might stop and bark, but as long as you remain motionless, they'll walk away.

I couldn't have been more still. I didn't even chat for fear of hitting something to cause me to move.

The bloodhounds stopped, stared at me, barked, then about 5 of them pounced on me, breaking my stealth, then I had almost an entire room full of angries on me.

Tragic really. That was in the first circular room.

I tried a second time.

I got past that big circular room with the circling mobs. THEN, I get into the hallway leading to the Ring of Law. Yep. It's packed with pats and mobs. I get past the first set only to come face to face with yet ANOTHER pack of bloodhounds.

Same result. An honorable battle, to say the least, but my thorns killed the last mob at the same exact moment I died.

Great fun.

Suggestions? With two failures under my belt, I know want to do this to prove to myself I CAN, I almost don't care about the trinket right now. It's become more of a quest of principle.

Think it's just brewfest that's doing me in now?

Kheldar
09-23-2008, 12:21 PM
you can solo to him but its a right royal pita.

i tried a number of times and the idol never dropped so i gave up out of frustration.

perseverance and patience should see you through ! something i did not have enough of ! :p


are there more hounds in there due to brewfest ?if not then that sohuld not be making a difference....

Destinae
09-23-2008, 12:48 PM
I have been told that there "are" more hounds due to Brewfest, and also have heard that the number of mobs in there remains the same. They just seem a LOT more sensitive than I remember them being any other time I've gone in there. Coincidentally, there are new level 70 mobs by the mole machines. I can prowl right up on them and bounce around nearby. They don't care what I do. It's those stupid dogs...argh.

It's intensely frustrating. Like I said, it's now becoming more a matter of principle than even getting the idol. I'll figure something out. Maybe an invisibility potion to get through the mobs? Or a potion that keeps you from being tracked? Perhaps that would help get through the mobs?

Thank goodness I'm an alchemist. I'll do some homework on this and let you know what I find out.

I'm about to just head in there al'abandon out of pure frustration.

I'm hell bent on doing it...I will find a way.

Allahanastar
09-23-2008, 01:11 PM
Ok... slow down.. there are much better idols that you can get as drops. Just so you know... the god idol... (Idol of Ferocity???) has a green equivalent that you get in Northrend so don't sweat it too much.

Destinae
09-23-2008, 01:41 PM
Understood. It's not so much about the idol actually as it is the challenge of "Can I actually DO this?"

I guess I'm losing faith in my skill as a player. I don't know what it is, but I seem to be dead more often than I'm alive lately.

And it's not only in Outlands that I find this happening. It's everywhere. I did go through and receive the new feral chest piece that is given as a quest reward with +426 armor. I should be dying LESS...at least, according to the math...

Then, tanking is a miserable experience if I'm in a like level instance with a group. I don't know if it's the groups, or that they don't have or don't know how to use omen...but I can't seem to keep aggro. I can run into the mobs with neon signs that say dirty things about their mothers and they won't stay focused on me.

Warlocks aren't bad. Mages tear aggro from me like nobody's business. I have this feeling Destinae will end up being Resto very soon and I'll be bringing up the next in the brood of alts.

A pally perhaps?

Or maybe I'm just my own worst critic, and I'm functioning as well as a level 61 druid tank CAN function...I've got nothing to gauge it on right now. My husband and I are the highest level feral druids in our guild. I can only judge myself as a tank based on seeing him perform as a tank...and he's only 4 levels higher than me...

I'm just one frustrated druid right now. But, I'm going to grind until I get some quests for Hellfire Ramps and Citadel, and I'll try my hand at tanking there. If that's another epic failure...I'll be considering a new profession for my beloved Druid.

Allahanastar
09-23-2008, 01:48 PM
Tanking above all takes TIME.... it sucks, but you don't learn to tank overnight. It can be extremely rewarding when you learn it, but bear in mind you don't have all the skills you need at lvl 61 to tank effectively. Plus if the mages and other people won't work with you there is NOTHING you can do to hold agro. DPS have to know their limits too.

You can do it... you can become the best tank in your guild, but it takes a lot of patience and time... let us know what you do for threat in your rotation and we can offer some advice.

tlbj6142
09-23-2008, 01:59 PM
Gear wise druid tanking pre-70 sort of sucks as well. So, I would plan to be at least 2 levels above the ideal level for the instances before you even think about tanking it. That said, I didn't bother tanking until I was lvl 66 and picked up lacerate. Then, I ran SP, UB, RP, BF several times before I continued leveling. Being higher level (66 in 60-63 5-mans), having better gear (from quest rewards) gave me quite a bit more of a buffer to use while learning. It helps, too, if you have a higher level healer (and/or over geared).

In the 60-65 range, DPS'rs can easily pull mobs off you unless they give you plenty of head start as leveling/quest gear is DPS gear. So, they have a huge head start on tanks.

Annikk
09-23-2008, 02:08 PM
let us know what you do for threat in your rotation and we can offer some advice.

Yes, do this.


-Annikk

Destinae
09-23-2008, 02:41 PM
My rotation usually consists of Thorns, then enrage. When I pull, I usually use FFF then tab target and swipe til I've gotten everyone's attention. From there, depending on rage I try to throw a mangle in there. Maul, as I understand it, only increases your next attack by a certain amount depending on its rank, right? I do try to throw that in there when I can, but it's not in a convenient spot on my action bar right now, so I have to move it over. (I didn't even think about pulling with Starfire or any such thing until I read a few posts here that explained why it's a good thing. I haven't tried it yet...been avoiding instances as much as I can recently.)

But that's about it. I mean, the melee range Growl I use only if I've lost more than one mob onto the DPS or Healer.

I'm not sure if Demoralizing Roar helps to generate threat or not. I use that if the mobs are really pounding me.

I've been in one group for a like-level instance that was amazing. They let me pull, then they stayed back until I either called them into the fight or until the Mage declared that based on omen they should attack. The healer held off on healing until threat wasn't an issue (Unless of course, I was in a dire state.) The mage in that particular group was my right hand man. Things went so smoothly. No Wipes.

Maybe I'm just stuck in perpetual PuG hell?

Sytaera
09-23-2008, 03:01 PM
Hrm, at the moment instead of tab-targeting swipe for tanking, you should probably mangle the primary target first, then swipe the other targets.

When I first started tanking seriously, it was pretty miserable for too. I think I had done nothing but really PvP at 70 but I decided I wanted the PvP badge trinket so I thought I'd try out some heroics.

I almost quit and respecced resto. I really was banging my head into my desk going 'why does this suck so badly?' and this was at 70. It really takes a lot of practice and just learning the instances. PuGs are really unforgiving too so it's always nice to find one. I was unguilded for the larger part of my tanking school but the people here at TDG were fantastic and eventually through numerous mind numbing pugs I began to get better.

Which led me to actually like PvE. I did buy the badge PvP cloak but then I ended up joining a raiding guild and that cloak sort of gathers up dust.

That said, you will lose aggro to some people. At level 61 you'll be a little bit hard pressed too. Pretty much the best way to hold aggro is really spam mangle and swipe until mangle is up again. Demo roar's threat generation is miniscule at best but it's a decent debuff.

Don't give up hope though! Tanking can be lots of fun once you get the hang of it.

Destinae
09-23-2008, 03:19 PM
Don't get me wrong. When I get "I need a run through <insert instance name here>" I jump at it. I love to be a tank. Otherwise I'd have raised my druid Resto all the way. (I'm sure I would have smashed my head against my desk with that, but for different reasons.)

So, could it be useful to tab target with mangle? Hit #1 with mangle, then swipe until Mangle is ready again, switch to another mob and hit mangle again, then lather, rinse, repeat as necessary?

The other part of the frustration is, half the time, I have NO clue what you guys are talking about. 2t4? @_@

There's SO much math and I'm terrible at math! I could write you a novel if you wanted me to, but math? Eeesh...

So, it makes it hard to pick and choose talents. I'm ALL feral right now. I know about the Resto Talent tree points that can help in Feral, but I guess I don't really understand anything about my beloved druid. (This is why my warrior is level 10, the pally stays at 8, and the mage stays at 6).

It's all so incredibly confusing. That's why I started this thread initially. I ultimately wanted to find out what WoW college you guys went to, or where you obtained so much knowledge about the stats, gear, talents, etc...Trial and error is fine, and I don't mind it, but I was just wondering if there was a book or a webpage that I could study until my eyes bleed that might help me FINALLY grasp the numbers game.

I read through the Theorycrafting thread. I sort of understand it a little better now. I haven't taken the time to really master that concept yet though.

Very frustrated. But I'll get it, come hell or high water!

tlbj6142
09-23-2008, 03:58 PM
2t4?The 2 piece bonus from the Tier 4 armor set. Don't worry about it. You'll probably never see it as the Xpac will be released before you get a chance to run Tier 4 content (kara, mags, gruul).

So, it makes it hard to pick and choose talents. I'm ALL feral right now.If you are lvl 61 you should have this talent build, http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxhrsfroezfoVx0z, if not go respec right now. Keep Omen of Clarity (OoC -- 11 pt talent in the Resto tree), thorns and MotW on you at all times. Make sure you refresh thorns every other pull or so. Remove thorns from yourself if someone else is tanking and put it on them.

Swap 2/3 Thick Hide for 2/2 Brutal Impact if you want.

What you do with the rest of your talent points isn't all that important. But I'd get 5/5 PI and 3/3 Intensity and 3/3 Thick Hide in that order. Though there is a good chance the Xpac will be released before you make it that far. The talent trees have undergone major changes in the Xpac. So, come back here and ask what you should have and we'll tell you.
It's all so incredibly confusing. That's why I started this thread initially. I ultimately wanted to find out what WoW college you guys went to, or where you obtained so much knowledge about the stats, gear, talents, etc.I agree. This is one of my biggest complaints about WoW. I typically spend more time on WoW out of game than I do in game. But, with this board, just ask. One of us will know and we promise not to call you names using a cryptic combination of letters and numbers.

Destinae
09-23-2008, 04:44 PM
TLBJ, You've probably become my hero for today. I cringe at the idea of respeccing again. I started as balance. Yeah, about three levels into that and I wanted to throw myself in front of the nearest speeding bus. It just wasn't "me".

I'll go talk to my druid trainer again and do my respec tonight or...well I'll do it soon, that's for sure.

I wholeheartedly agree that I spend a LOT more of my time researching this game than actually playing it. Quests, instances, bosses, gear, strategies, and the list goes on forever.

I think I understand more about Survivalist Hunter talent trees and abilities right now than my own build, thanks to trying to help a friend get his hunter situated...only to find out he didn't believe me at all, despite my researching his questions for endless hours, and he went ahead to beast mastery. GRR! I should have dueled him to death!

I don't really understand how things go together all the time. I'll give the new build a try and maybe things will start to make a little more sense.

This is why I sought out help on being a druid in general. I don't get much help in figuring this stuff out and as far as the "build" the only advice I've gotten is "Wait til you hit 70, then respec with whatever works." That, to me, means "Go waste gold and you still might not end up with a solid tank build."

It's all just so frustrating...but there is a light at the end of the tunnel I suppose...I was reading some recent patch notes and...

The Barber Shop has been implemented and you can now visit one of the Barber Shops in the major cities to change your appearance. Be sure to get your Shave and a Haircut!

Excellent. I can't figure out how to tank successfully, but man, Des can get a new hairstyle! Just what I've been waiting for! Many /lolz to Blizz for that.

I can't decipher the new talent tree - but I can go get pampered to relieve the frustration and stress of actual game play. Whew!

I love Blizz. I love them for their sense of humor. Yes I do. /pinches Blizz's cheeks!

Oiysters
09-23-2008, 07:22 PM
Dest, the build tlbj posted will help you a ton. And you can be a great tank w/o math! A few things that are critical:

1. Remember this truth: If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault. If the dps dies, it's their own damn fault. No matter what any dps says, this is always true.

2. Mark all the mobs in any pull, and enforce the kill order. Marking makes it easy for cc'ers to cc and for the dps to focus fire where you want it focued. Don't worry about which mob should die first or any of that, you will learn that with time. Did I mention enforce the kill order?

3. Tell people what to do, especially in pugs. If you don't, most dps will focus on their position on the damage meters above all else, and then blame you for not keeping the mobs off them. If they are not watching their threat, IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT, IT IS THEIRS. Don't be afraid to kick players that refuse to watch their threat meters, and don't take their criticism seriously.

4. As tlbj said, keep thorns, motw, and ooc on yourself at all times.

5. Do not worry about downing things quickly, worry about keeping the encounter under control. Speed will come with experience. Tell the dps they need to let you establish aggro lock before they start dps'ing. If someone complains about the pace tell them 'If you pull it, you tank it' or kick them.

6. Use the crowd control in your group as much as possible: sap, sheep, shackle, trap, and an offtank are all your friends. Tell the cc to keep their mob under control until they come up in the kill order. This will keep the number of loose mobs more managable.

7. Do not let aoe-capable dps aoe. You are not a pally. You cannot aoe tank like a pally. They cannot aoe as if you are a pally. See #5 above.

8. Try this tanking rotation: Pull with FFF. Hit Maul, then Demo Roar, then Mangle. If you have a single target (yay for cc!) Lacerate x 3. Keep Demo Roar, Mangle and Lacerate on the mob at all times, Maul every time you have plenty of rage. If you have two or three targets Swipe x 3 instead of Lacerate x 3. Keep Demo Roar up and Mangle on your primary target and keep Swiping. If three + targets, tab and Swipe, but keep Mangle up on your primary target. Don't worry about fancier tanking rotations until you feel you've mastered these basics.

Sorry for the wall o' text, but mastering these basics will make tanking a far more enjoyable activity.

tlbj6142
09-23-2008, 09:28 PM
8. Try this tanking rotation: Pull with FFF. Hit Maul, then Demo Roar, then Mangle.When you are ready to pull, start in caster form, shift to bear, enrage, pull with FFF, then start your attack sequence.

I would avoid Maul until you have at least 50-60 rage. Until then, focus on Manlge, swipe (mutli mob pulls or until you have lacerate) and lacerate. If while doing your mangle swipe lacerates you get over 50 rage, hit maul.

And if you are up for a little light reading...

"Useful Articles" (top Left side) http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/
"Useful Information" (lower right side) http://thebigbearbutt.com/

Be aware that many (all?) of the above articles assume you are 70, so some of it does not apply to a lvl 61 toon.

Annikk
09-24-2008, 07:33 AM
Des Druid,

So, could it be useful to tab target with mangle? Hit #1 with mangle, then swipe until Mangle is ready again, switch to another mob and hit mangle again, then lather, rinse, repeat as necessary?

You can do that, but a better idea would be to always use your Mangle on whichever mob the dps is currently killing/is going to be killing shortly.


I'm going to cover with you a few key things about Aggro Mechanics.


Theory
In our example, lets imagine you are fighting 3 mobs, one of which the dps will kill first because we have marked it with a Skull to indicate that they should do so.

If a dps class does some damage to Skull, they will generate aggro only on Skull. The other mobs won't care about that dps at all - only the Skull who received a fireball (or whatever) to the face will be concerned.

It works a bit differently for the aggro generated from healing though - if a healer casts a heal on you, they get some aggro from ALL the mobs you are currently fighting. Fortunately, heal aggro is quite small, so it doesn't take much for you to hold the mobs against the aggro generated by your healer.

We need to respond to how the aggro generated by the rest of the group is likely to pan out:

DPS: Lots of aggro on Skull, little or no aggro on others
Healer: A little aggro on all the mobs.

To tank effectively, you need to "shape" your own aggro to be ahead of all of the members of your party.


Practice
So with this in mind, when you first pull a pack of mobs, use Mangle on Skull to get some early aggro. Then the dps can get to work on killing Skull.

Meanwhile, you can start swiping and perhaps do a Demoralising Roar to get some aggro on all the other mobs, so that they don't run to the healer as soon as the first heal lands. Once you've hit them all with a swipe or two, pay some more attention to Skull, then swipe a bit more, and so on.

Your suggestion in the quote at the top of this post of spreading your Mangles out over all the mobs will probably result in you being easily, comfortably ahead of the healer, but the dps will probably overaggro on Skull. So that is probably not a good "shape" for your aggro.



That's the basic theory, and practice, of instance tanking. There are loads of little tricks and stuff you can do, but that essentially is the basis from which all of them stem.

Perhaps you already know all or most of this, but I thought since you seem to feel like you are floundering (as many tanks do when they start out) it might be useful to cover some basics :>


-Annikk

Destinae
09-24-2008, 09:20 AM
Maybe I've just been stuck in PuG Purgatory then...

I haven't respec'd. I was trying to grind out as many quests in Hellfire as I could. I despise the landscape so much there. It's angled and weird and makes for a difficult time maneuvering in some places because of camera angles. Can't WAIT to get out of there!

As I'm sure you've all been through the quests, yes, I've started to pick up some much more powerful gear than what I had. It's a relief.

I'm hopefully going to tank Scholomance and Dire Maul this weekend in order to help my husband get his Warlock's epic mount.

And maybe I'm just frustrated because I know what my job is in a group. I know what the healer's job is and I know what everyone else is supposed to be doing. Getting them to do it? I'd have more of a chance of sitting in the Inn in Honor Hold and having some "Free Level 70" fairy come down and just POOF me to level 70 without questing.

I've evaded tanking instances recently like you can't even imagine. Not only because I'm feeling like a failure as a tank, but because of the grind to 70.

Oh, and an update on the Hunter who thought he could transform himself into the Uber Tank Extraordinaire...I got an apology from him recently for his arrogance. After trying to run two lowbies through Dead Mines, he realized that tanks DON'T actually just float in nilly willy and have an easy job. He learned how hard it actually IS to pull aggro OFF of someone and how hard it is to really keep a group of mobs focused on you rather than attacking the people you're there to protect. He gives his kudos to us tanking classes, having never before realized just how difficult it can be to tank (especially with over-zealous DPS'ers in the group).

Finally. And all it took was him letting the two lowbies die about 25 times in the instance he considers himself a pro at for him to realize it.

Now maybe if I group with him again, he'll stop yanking aggro and perhaps turn auto-taunt/aggression off on his pet. Always a lovely thing when the hunter's pet chases something down and brings ten more "friends" to the already difficult party.

tlbj6142
09-24-2008, 09:47 AM
As I'm sure you've all been through the quests, yes, I've started to pick up some much more powerful gear than what I had. It's a reliefdo every quest in HFP and ZM and Nagrand. Even the group quests, they provide some really nice leveling gear (and some tanking stuff).

FWIW, the spec I gave you earlier will help with leveling as well. As OoC is the #1 solo kitty DPS talent.

Destinae
09-24-2008, 12:01 PM
I'll try and respec tonight then. I just didn't get to the trainer until late, and by that point I was exhausted from RL, so I just logged and went to bed.

I love questing, so doing all of the HFP, ZM, and Nagrand quests won't be an issue. I'm actually planning on picking up the one chain in Scholomance as well, so that I can learn the Major Mana potion, unless it drops before I can buy it. Alchemy is so fun!

Allahanastar
09-24-2008, 01:26 PM
Major Mana potion can be bought. I can't remember where... but you can buy it.... www.wowhead.com.... learn it... love it... research your little heart out....

A lot of tanking is practice... one of the things I typically do is this... lets assume a pull where three mobs will be coming at me. Now DPS by nature is twitchy.... so assume you'll have AT MOST 2 seconds before someone gets stupid and opens up.

The mobs should be marked. It doesn't necessarily matter what your marks are as long as you tell everyone the kill order. So if you do, Skull, X, Circle... tell them your kill order is Skull, X, Circle.

For the pull there are a couple of options... to build agro on other mobs you can:
a) Pull with spells
b) Just pull the main mob and build agro via Swipe etc.

Its kind of a personal preference thing. One guy I know likes to do three pulls as follows:
Mob Circle= Cast Starfire as opener
Mob X = Gets a tab target and Moonfire
Mob Skull = Gets hit with a Mangle as soon as in range.

Now as for abilities. Typically you want to focus 90% of your effort on the main mob. So you you should be mangling and normal hits on the Skull. To keep agro on the other mobs (without changing targets) you're going to want to swipe. You basically would hit the main target and mangle and then swipe, swipe, swipe... the mangle the main target. if you have a LOT of rage (meaning above 50% of a bar) then smack Maul too. Maul is great for threat and damage if you have lots of rage. If you have rage issues (lack of) then NEVER hit Maul.

There are a ton of more advanced techniques that some people use... just for example:

a) Lacerate -> This is a farther ability that generates a ton of threat. For the future its HIGHLY recommended to swap over to this when possible... one really advanced technique is to use what's known as a "mouseover" lacerate macro. The macro lets you hit a button (say 1 on the keyboard) and whatever your mouse is over will get a lacerate as opposed to swapping targets.
b) Mouseover Swipes -> Great for bigger packs of mobs... you basically use this for hitting most of the mobs if you are dealing with larger packs of say 5-7 mobs. You use the mouseover to swap where your swipe hits from side to side of the pack... not 100% effective, but still better than we normally can do.
c) AOE Pulling via Hurricane -> This takes a LOT of faith and practice from your healers too... you basically pull one guy (or run into the middle of the pack) smack Barkskin and then toss hurricane in rapid succession. You'll TAKE A TON of damage, but if you do it right, your DPS can AOE the pack down all at once.

Special notes: Swipe WILL Break crowd control (typically refered to as CC).... so you must be very careful when using Swipe around sheep, saps, traps and shackles.

Destinae
09-24-2008, 02:00 PM
Oh yes, I've been yelled at a thousand times for breaking a CC with swipe. My issue has been that the CC doesn't normally get applied to the casters which, most times, cast fun magic that cuts through even the most solid of armor. It gets cast on a melee guy I'm already terrorizing. So, not only is the magic killing me faster than any melee power hitter could...but I instantly break the CC and get barked at.

I've realized that marking does very little if you're grouped with people who either don't care about target order, don't understand it, or are very self-focused rather than group focused.

But, if I mark, I follow my order. If someone else marks, I follow their order (unless one particular mob is being much more of a nuisance than the rest...then I might break formation to get rid of him first...and yes, I'll let the group know if a particular mob is causing more trouble than the rest.)

Maybe this is why I'm so frustrated...I'll tell you a little story about my journey so far and I apologize in advance for wordiness.

I joined the guild I'm in based on my husband's recommendation. They are INCREDIBLY awesome, very helpful, will give you the shirts of their backs if it means helping someone out. So, I'm the type of person where, if you're helping me, I want to give back. So, I decided maybe I could work my way up through guild ranks.

The first "special" guild rank was fairly easy. The second one required me to really research group dynamics and roles, and REALLY get to know my character (which is why I posted here on the stats). I know basic stats and concepts for bear vs kitty...but for me personally I wanted to learn more than guild rank "quizzing" required.

I learned SO much about other classes and their abilities on TOP of learning an intense amount of stuff about being a druid...I studied instance guides, pestered the higher ups in the guild for knowledge...and finally took the quiz. Oh I passed...with FLYING colors! I even impressed my GM with in depth knowledge on some strategies (ie LoS). So, here I am, feeling AWESOME!!!

Then the farther on I go, the more confusing the numbers get, the more I'm finding myself with groups that wipe constantly (even when I'm 14 levels HIGHER than the instance itself) ... it leaves me thinking ... "Well what kind of tank AM I if my groups keep dying and I struggle so hard with this?"

I've been infinitely reassured by you all though. It honestly never occurred to me that Blizz would give us ferals more DPS oriented gear than tanking gear for leveling purposes. So, I guess that was somewhat comforting.

Realizing that though I'm not ideally spec'd...that most of the "strategies" I've been using for threat management are pretty close to what every other druid tank uses was comforting.

I've learned a lot here on this thread, from how to figure out which gear is best for dps or tanking, why you'd need 3-4 sets of gear...

I guess most of all you've all sort of helped me hang onto faith that eventually I'll be a tank to be reckoned with...and I thank you all for that.

It seems more like I'm stuck in PuG hell than really failing as a druid.

Though, I'm not going to lie...the BRD issue STILL frustrates me beyond anything you can imagine.

Unfortunately, I'm about as stubborn as they come, so yes, I'll probably keep trying until I successfully solo Lord Roccor. I don't care about the idol. I did my research and found that yes, much better things do drop and SOON...

I just wanted to thank you all for taking the time to help me out with everything. Unfortunately for you all, I've got an insatiable thirst for knowledge, not to mention there will be new talent hieroglyphics coming out soon that I'll need help trying to understand, and new gear...

Again, I thank you all for taking the time to share your knowledge and tips with me, and for "taking me under your wing" so to speak. You've made me happy panda once again!

tlbj6142
09-24-2008, 02:49 PM
Then the farther on I go, the more confusing the numbers get, the more I'm finding myself with groups that wipe constantly (even when I'm 14 levels HIGHER than the instance itself) ... it leaves me thinking ... "Well what kind of tank AM I if my groups keep dying and I struggle so hard with this?"Tanking instances that much lower than you requires you to change your gear quite a bit otherwise you don't generate enough rage (because no one can hit you). If I'm tanking non-heroic BC 5-mans or lower I just wear my tanking kit, but swap out 3-4 pieces with kitty gear (including my 2H). That gives me a ton of DPS, which is more threat and more rage. I don't need more armor, dodge, health, etc. for those lower instances.

The lower the instance, the more kitty gear I wear. Anything below 63-ish I'd probably just wear my kitty set.

Claritondeus
09-24-2008, 02:54 PM
I too spent a lot of time at lvl 60 figuring out how to solo the lvl 60-62 elite Stone Guardians. That was a PITA back then, but I really wanted my Cloak of Warding. It was also a lot of fun doing stealth runs at 60 to get the Idol that drops off of Lord Roccor.

Heh, that brings back a lot of memories.

Solo'd Roccor a bunch for the idol and the SHOTM enchanting recipie (which I leveled enchanting for). Solo'd a ton of those Stone guys.

good times pre bc.

Destinae
09-24-2008, 03:04 PM
TLBJ, I don't know that my gear was the issue previously, as I had little trouble generating rage. It was spreading the threat out enough to keep the mobs on me if I needed a heal that was the issue. But I've learned a few new strategies I'm going to try out soon, and we'll see how it goes.

I think I learn better "seeing" how things work. Meaning, when I get forced into Sunken Temple again, I'll maybe try with the new chest/gear I got (+426 armor from HFP) on the first group of mobs and see how my threat/rage goes. Then switch to the other new chest with comparable attributes and see how it changes. I think it helps make the "theory" behind all of this a little more real and concrete for me.

Allahanastar
09-24-2008, 04:03 PM
Yeah one of the least intuitive and hardest things to learn is when to swap gear. I made the mistake after months of doing Kara of going back and doing a normal instance... I couldn't keep agro on anything... the problem was... I had too good of gear. Having too good of gear can be a huge problem because you don't get rage and thus you don't generate threat.

Now for your issue of CC not being where it needs to be... that's a practice issue for the CC'r. I'll usually remind them before I pull... Mage.. you've got the Circle for a Sheep target. Then I pull. Some people NEED to be told exactly what they need to do or they just can't do it. Training people to CC appropriately is hard. Its like learning tanking... it takes a lot of practice.

Oiysters
09-24-2008, 05:50 PM
Maybe I've just been stuck in PuG Purgatory then...
And maybe I'm just frustrated because I know what my job is in a group. I know what the healer's job is and I know what everyone else is supposed to be doing. Getting them to do it? I'd have more of a chance of sitting in the Inn in Honor Hold and having some "Free Level 70" fairy come down and just POOF me to level 70 without questing.
Unfortunatly I was quite serious about kicking people that refuse to listen. You may lose a group the first few times you do it, but usually after the first kick people start paying attention and doing their jobs. You will also get a reputation for not putting up with BS in pugs which will put you in high demand as a tank. I like to line up a replacement from my guild or my friends list first so when I kick someone we don't have to wait long for a replacement. It's the only stick you have to use after you run out of carrots.:banghead:

The other alternative is to leave the group yourself and find another. Seriously, nothing made out of pixels is worth spending two hours with players that won't cooperate.

Destinae
09-25-2008, 09:00 AM
Agreed. I guess I'm too much of a softy for the /kick. I think the biggest struggle I have had is "Tank needs to be leader"...because it's always followed with a million arguments about why So and So needs to be lead in the group.

That's usually my sign that things just aren't going to work out. If Destinae is tanking, then Destinae must be lead. If Destinae isn't lead, then Destinae isn't tanking. It's hard to get people to allow you to "practice" tanking, which is why I'm thankful for the guild I'm in. They're willing to let me do whatever I need to do in order to learn.

I get SO stressed out trying to mark things though. It was mentioned in another thread here that you, as a tank, are expected to know what kinds of mobs you'll face before you head through the portal, even if you've never run the instance before.

I don't mind doing the homework to learn and come up with some sort of strategy before hand...but half the time you're scampering around soloing when you're asked to group for one thing or another. Doesn't afford much time to figure things out before you go in and face the music.

I don't worry about that so much. We don't mark things much in the lower 5 mans on my server. We "should" because it'd be great practice for myself as a tank, but it just doesn't happen.

Lately, if I'm not questing, I've been employed on paid runs through low instances. You know, the ones where you can cast thorns and stand there without attacking and just let the mobs kill themselves? Yeah. Excitement.

One of the biggest regrets I have with my druid though is not doing more like level PuG's. Because my guild wanted to help us level more quickly, they'd just grab a level 70 and run you through whatever instance you had quests for and call it a day. So, while the instance took maybe 20 minutes and you got to mess around and do almost nothing the entire time while gaining loot and finishing quest objectives...it really didn't allow me to learn a thing. That's my biggest regret so far. But, there's still plenty of time to learn, I hope.

Annikk
09-25-2008, 11:38 AM
Lately, if I'm not questing, I've been employed on paid runs through low instances. You know, the ones where you can cast thorns and stand there without attacking and just let the mobs kill themselves? Yeah. Excitement.

If the mobs die having only taken damage from Thorns, your little buddies that you are powerlevelling won't get any loot or exp for them.
You have to do some non-automatic damage, such as hitting them, or swipe, or hurricane, in order for them to get exp and loots.


Major Mana potion can be bought. I can't remember where... but you can buy it.... www.wowhead.com.... learn it... love it... research your little heart out....

You buy it from a ghostly vendor outside Scholomance.
To see the vendor, you first need to complete a questline which I believe begins at the camp in the south of Western Plaguelands.



-Annikk

Grimjonn
09-25-2008, 11:47 AM
The lower the instance, the more kitty gear I wear. Anything below 63-ish I'd probably just wear my kitty set.

Depending on the circumstances you can actually tank in your kitty gear in heroics. In heroic Ramparts I'll "offtank" a caster in kitty form, and when the mob is dead I'll switch to whichever mob the group is on. It makes those tricky pulls very easy.

Destinae
09-25-2008, 12:27 PM
LOL I didn't mean that I actually go in and just let thorns do all the dirty work for me. The lowbie friends don't get much XP when they take anyone that's insanely high level through those instances anyway, but I make sure to beat stuff up to get out of there quicker and so that they do get the loot they seek.

I think the major mana potion is also a random drop in Scholo, but I don't remember which mob, so I'm going to pick up that quest to get that. I love potions. They're so helpful when you've bitten off more than you can chew on your own.

When it comes time, I think I'm going to go Master of Elixir's with Alchemy because I like the idea of the buff's they give...though I'm not entirely sure yet. I have a little while to think on that.

Oiysters
09-25-2008, 12:58 PM
Elixir master is awesome, I love it.

Sounds like you have a great guild. Ask them to take you on training missions in level-appropriate instances and allow you to lead the group and do all the things a tank should do. They will be patient while you mark and will follow your direction. You will learn and gain confidence in a safe environment. That's what worked for me...I levelled mostly Dreamstate once I hit Outlands so when I respecced feral I had bad gear and no skill.

Use those training missions to practice the advice we've all given in this thread and you'll be awesome in no time!

skwidrific
09-25-2008, 01:03 PM
^ that's an EXCELLENT suggestion!

personally, i can read posts about tanking until my eyes bleed... but like everything else, it takes practice for me to get good at anything

Destinae
09-25-2008, 01:11 PM
Oiysters, I'm sure they'd let me do that. The problem is finding people willing to put their lives (and repair bills) in my hands for a run.

I'm going to grab a few more levels, then tank a group through Hellfire Ramps or Citadel. I keep finding myself in "We need a healer" situations though, which leaves my tanking lessons on a backburner.

Sadly, that's making me consider going resto.

Though, I did get invited to join another guild that is transitioning from a leveling guild to a casual raid guild two nights ago. Their GM spoke with me briefly based on the recommendation of a little gnome warlock I had once grouped with for ZF. Seems like I'd get more opportunity to tank there, which is ultimately what I want to do, but I don't want to leave my current guild and find myself in an even more frustrating situation.

We'll have to see how the cards fall I guess...

Yrys
09-26-2008, 09:42 AM
You buy it from a ghostly vendor outside Scholomance.
To see the vendor, you first need to complete a questline which I believe begins at the camp in the south of Western Plaguelands.



-Annikk

http://wow.thedruidsgrove.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8695

;) (Though I'm not sure how up-to-date that guide is...)

Destinae
09-26-2008, 10:54 AM
There's this little island in a lake in the SE corner of WPL. I believe that's where I have to pick up the quest. Either way, I'll just prance around until I find what I'm looking for.

Curiously, after looking over the talent tree TLBJ recommended to me about a thousand times...Why would a tanking druid not want to take Imp MotW?

Just a curious question. And no, I haven't gone and respec'd yet. /ashamed

Just haven't had the time what with getting suckered into a Sunken Temple run last night (that was pretty much an eternal run courtesy of some ridiculous amounts of drama).

tlbj6142
09-26-2008, 11:14 AM
Why would a tanking druid not want to take Imp MotW?Because Furor is better. Plus the increase with iMotW is minor.

However, come lvl 80 (and not until I reach 80), I will have 2/2 iMotW and 3/5 Furor as both talents have changed significantly.

Destinae
09-26-2008, 11:22 AM
Either way...I can't wait. I think it will be exciting. And this time, I won't be just hitting the topmost level as the current expansion comes to an end. I'll actually have a level 80 to run with in the current expansion to explore the new instances and raids and such. That, in and of itself, is a little more exciting than the race to hit 70 by Early November.

I'll have to look at the Imp MotW and Furor. I know why Furor is good, but it'd seem like you'd want all the stam/armor buffs possible in bear form up until you cap out...

Which, I imagine when I start nearing level 80 I'll try to learn more about. I don't know that I'll have much time to focus on the level 70 caps since only a few weeks later I'll be grinding to 80 to compete for spots in the new level 80 content.

Kheldar
09-26-2008, 11:49 AM
Furor has always been really useful for a feral.

Imp MotW less so imho. altough the change to it being a 2 point talent no means its perhaps got more of a chance of some points getting put in it by ferals ;)

tlbj6142
09-26-2008, 01:13 PM
Imp MotW less so imho. altough the change to it being a 2 point talent no means its perhaps got more of a chance of some points getting put in it by ferals ;)Come level 80, Furor will have little value except for PvP. So, I plan to take 2/2 iMotW and 3/5 Furor at that point. While leveling from 70-80, you want 5/5 Furor as the iMotW buff on Rank 8 MotW isn't all that great, but for Rank 9 MotW (which you get at lvl 80) it isn't too shabby. By then, Furor has lost its value.

In fact, in a pure tanking build I see 0/61/0 or even 0/59/2 as being the ideal build.

Destinae
09-26-2008, 01:17 PM
Perhaps.

Maybe I'll just go Resto...

I'd show you the chat transcripts but they all end usually end with "Des, can you heal? We've got a level 70 tank."

Grr! I am a large bear. Roar.

(BTW - I'm not really going resto...but believe me...that thought haunts me every time I'm invited to group to tank, then get "Oh NM, you can just heal")

Allahanastar
09-26-2008, 02:22 PM
Its hard to live with. I probably gave up to early in BC. Bears are great tanks. I tanked for a long time, but in my raiding life I never got a shot to tank in T5 content. The raid leaders were all tanks so I pretty much was screwed from day one. 1 main raid leader (a warrior with a bias against anyone not a warrior), one assistant (a pally tank), and one loot master (a warrior tank too). Gee one OT/DPS slot left.. hmmm its frustrating to go week after week knowing you won't be allowed to tank when you've tanked every boss in Karazhan.

Stick with it and you'll do fine.

Oiysters
09-27-2008, 12:57 AM
tlbj, why do you think Furor will lose it's value at 80?

tlbj6142
09-27-2008, 09:07 AM
tlbj, why do you think Furor will lose it's value at 80?From strictly a PvE perspective, Furor has 2 parts, one for bear and one for cat. The part for bear is nice, but you don't really need it. As you can use enrage to start pulls.

The cat change is awesome. And it is great for solo leveling. Switch to cat from your mount, flight form, travel form, etc. And you have 100 energy! That is great. However, once you reach lvl 80 and are no longer questing (as much), I think you can live with just 60 energy (what you get with 3/5 Furor) when you shift to cat. For group PvE furor doesn't benefit cat all that much. Maybe if you have to switch out to innervate, brez, heal, etc., but those are rare scenarios and the loss of 40 energy isn't that big of a deal. I'd rather have the +14 stats from iMotW.

For PvP, the new furor is nice. I guess it depends how much time you spend out of cat form. If you heal often for several seconds and then go back to cat for melee DPS it is probably worth taking.

For me, I focus on PvE, so once questing is done, Furor holds little value. And 2/2 iMotW is quite a boost for the entire party/raid. As who knows if I'll have another Druid in the mix. Resto Druids will take 2/2 iMotW, but Moonkins won't as 5/5 Furor gives them extra int.

Oiysters
09-27-2008, 10:24 AM
I see your logic, thanks.

Destinae
09-29-2008, 02:59 PM
I suppose I should just stare at the current talent trees, then stare at the next talent trees to see if I can come up with a game plan.

TLBJ, I believe you had said to keep Omen of Clarity buffed on at all times...but I noticed that you aren't intending on keeping it when WotLK comes out? You had said you might go with a 0/61/0 or even 0/59/2 from a purely tanking standpoint...

Does Omen of Clarity then lose some value at level 80?

I haven't rebuilt my spec yet. Haven't had a chance. Our guild tends to grow in waves, where handfuls of new members all reach similar instances together and part of my pledge is to be the guild's personal lowbie tank. Well, not so much, but I pledged to help whenever I possibly can. I spent so much time in Scarlet Monastery and Sunken Temple recently...I really just want to cry.

I did get to see Scholomance for the first time along with Dire Maul this weekend. Myself and my level 60 Warlock husband nearly two manned the east wing of Dire Maul...and only a few "Oops" in there where a pat did us in. We had to get him his Epic Lock Pony. He even got a few T1's from the bosses. Nothing for the feral druid though...just a few of the Wildheart pieces. I believe I have 2 of them now...

tlbj6142
09-29-2008, 03:16 PM
TLBJ, I believe you had said to keep Omen of Clarity buffed on at all times...but I noticed that you aren't intending on keeping it when WotLK comes out? You had said you might go with a 0/61/0 or even 0/59/2 from a purely tanking standpoint...

Does Omen of Clarity then lose some value at level 80?First, once 3.0 (or will it be called 2.5?) is released, OoC will no longer need to be casted. It will be automatic if you have the talent (yeah!). It doesn't show up on your buff bar so you need to get use to not seeing it after the next patch.

Regarding the 0/61/0 or 0/59/2 builds, those are for folks that just want a pure bear build and don't care about the loss to their Cat DPS. IOW, hard core bear raiders.

Personally, I'll end up with a 0/50/11 build as I still do quite a bit of DPS either as an off-tank or often as a pure DPS'r on 5-man runs in which we already have a Prot Warrior/Pally/DK. Which means, I still want OoC.

Destinae
09-29-2008, 04:57 PM
I'm not sure where I'll go with it...but I'll be back here asking for advice on the build. I'd "rather" be a tank. The problem I have is I'm not very bossy. I have to learn to be more assertive and knowledgeable on pulls as well...

Not that I get a chance. "Hey, Destinae, can you join us for Scholomance? We need a healer."

My response is always "Just keep in mind that I'm healing with gigantic bear claws and RAWRness...You might get more hurt than healed..."

And poof. There I am pretending I know how to heal people in Scholomance...

Really...not sure why I'm spec'd feral. I rarely get to play the role I am designed for in instances...

Resto...here I come...

Oiysters
09-29-2008, 05:19 PM
Lol @ semantics...

There is no need for you to be "bossy", You just need to be clear and willing to stand up for yourself. Bossy tanks (the way I define that word) mostly fail because people won't enjoy running with them.

There's nothing wrong with responding, "I'm not resto, let me know when you need a tank, an offtank, or some kitty dps. RAWR!" In the meantime you can finish levelling to 70 and 80 and shred face all the way there. :thumbsup:

I was resto with 2k heals when I switched over...I respecced back and forth a few times for raids, but after I said no the second time they stopped asking me to heal and I started tanking or dpsing in all our raids. :icon_lol:

Claritondeus
09-30-2008, 03:21 PM
I'd rather have the +14 stats from iMotW.


It'll be interesting to see what +14 stats really is at 80 (in comparison to the total stats we have).

I love that they made it a 2 point talent. About time.

Destinae
10-01-2008, 09:51 AM
Ok, I am one perplexed little druid right now.

Zul'Farrak. Enough said. I love the instance. It's one of my favorites.

Last night was my first time trying to survive the "Thousand Man Battle".

We had a group of 3, since the rest of the instance is easy at level 62. We wiped once on the witch doctor guy in the room with all the graves, mainly because the Balance Druid with us Hurricaned on the mobs I hadn't hit yet, so he yanked an insane amount of aggro and I couldn't get them off of him fast enough.

So I wasn't getting much needed heals during that part. But we did get the boss down before we wiped. We didn't make it back in time to loot him though :(

But then we headed into the thousand man battle in the stairway room.

Bear + 25 mobs + Balance Druid and Mage AoE'ing = EPIC fail.

Aside from starting the battle with a Hurricane of my own...how am I supposed to generate enough aggro on that many mobs so that I can get healed without the healer pulling instant aggro?

It was so frustrating. We wiped initially, ran back in, started the battle again. I pulled a handful of mobs, enough for me to handle, but the INSTANT the heals hit another 15 came running over. It was intensely frustrating. So my balance druid friend kept apologizing for pulling aggro. I'm not really sure that he could have avoided it in there except to hide while I died.

I tried grabbing a handful of bad guys and running to a clear spot in the room...pulling them back over by the doorway...but still, the instant a heal hit, or the instance the Mage or the other Druid attacked to help, it was an overflow of adds. The other druid tried off-tanking with me, and that didn't work either.

The reason we tried it like this, as a 3 man group, is because when I was still level 47 or so, my husband tanked for myself and that hunter friend of mine. We easily survived the thousand man battle.

My husband was a lvl 63 or 64 feral druid, I was healing in feral gear spec'd as a feral druid, and the hunter was DPS'ing. We survived though. It seemed so effortless.

I tried every rotation I could think of as far as attacks to build aggro. Rage generation definitely wasn't an issue even with my ridiculous armor for an instance that level.

So...we were in a similar group set up. Myself, a lvl 62 druid, wearing the same gear my husband wore when he tanked in our previous 3 man group. We had a lvl 48 mage and a level 45 Balance Druid (so with the intel and spirit on his gear, should have technically been a better healer than myself when I first ran in feral gear).

But we wiped. A lot. Eventually we all agreed we wanted to take more DPS that could off-tank if need be. But the other two we invited to the group didn't end up showing up. They declined the group invite.

Am I that poor of a tank? Was it the healing? I just couldn't generate enough threat on that many mobs to keep them from running off on me and beating up my group.

It was my first time in that battle, and they were both patient and didn't tear my paws off for not being able to do it.

Is there a tactic I could have used? Sheesh, I mean, even pulling with Hurricane maybe? I ran out of ideas on how to make THAT much threat quickly enough to get a heal before I died.

Is that just one of those battles where you have to constantly just chase anything that decides to attack your healer or your DPS?

I watched my husband do it on his druid tank, effortlessly. Then I try and...fail... :( It didn't so much discourage me as much as it made me want to go in there with RAWR and tear apart that instance.

I tried every rotation I could think of. I even rolled out the HOLY S#&% rotation of "bash, frenzied regen, healing potion, Caster form, HEAL, bear form". Demoralizing Roar did next to nothing. My taunts were resisted a few times which didn't help matters at all.

It was intense. Thankfully it wasn't a PuG. We had a little hunter with us, but after some drama he brought to the table, we ended up booting him. Volley + Scarab room + Tank having to battle to get aggro off of EVERYONE = a VERY Angry bear (especially after you've been asked nicely to please NOT use AoE). I guess he had that scarab shells quest, decided he was going to take care of it on his own, despite me telling him I'd clear that entire room for them since they all had the quest. It didn't help that I was in there with my husband's alt and a friend's alt and felt compelled to protect them.

So, I suppose ZF last night wasn't a total loss. I did get a small lesson in assertiveness as a tank...but other than that...if any of you can point me in the right direction for that battle...I'd love you for it.

Or, well for any huge mob battle (since there's one with that Witch Doctor Boss right before the thousand man battle room that we wiped on as well.)

I offer my intense gratitude in advance!

Allahanastar
10-01-2008, 12:02 PM
Ok stop..... breathe.... Step 1... don't tank everything..

If you're level 70... fine you can tank everything, but there's no point. In the 1000 man battle the point is that you can aoe some, but you have elite helpers to kill stuff FOR YOU. I have been known to round up large sums of them and kill them all at once, but you can single target kill almost all of the mobs. The non elites are simple. Just a couple of strikes should kill them. The elites are the ones you need to tank. Mountains of AOE won't help you here unless you are bringing in a level 70 with mass quantities of AOE.

You only go down the stairs when the elite helpers go down the stairs. So basically you stay back at the top, kill mobs one by one... worry most about the elites. Then once you've got a break, sit down and drink. Its hectic... its super epic, but that's why you have so many helpers.

The Witch doctor fight isn't bad if you back him into a corner and use swipe. your party just has to stay on top of you and DPS away.

Oiysters
10-01-2008, 12:53 PM
I love that fight. One of my favorite encounters in the game, well scripted, interesting, and a great view from the top of the stairs! ;-)

Destinae
10-01-2008, 12:56 PM
Well, after speaking to my husband (the mage) I found out that the balance druid with us was using healing touch, rather than rejuv/regrowth. That might have been why he pulled aggro so much during that battle.

I wasn't trying to tank the entire group, but just hitting two or three that ran up the stairs caused a flood of adds. I should have paid more attention to what my groupmates were doing, but I didn't get a chance.

The cage doors got opened while I was downstairs finishing off one of the mobs we had missed on our way up. So everything spawned on top of me. When we died and ran back in, I tried to pull just a few at a time, but it seemed like pulling one with FFF caused a flood of them to race our way.

I'm sad to say I probably won't get the chance to do it again for my husband's mage because he figures he'll just have a level 70 run him through. The only chance I'd have of doing it again is PuG.

Sidelined. Ouch.

So, I'm going to be more selfish with my time for a little while and just focus on leveling so I can tank the Headless Horseman in Scarlet Monastery near the end of this month. :) That will make me /happy panda!

Oiysters
10-01-2008, 12:57 PM
The strat that Alla outlined above will work for many many fights for you as you progress through content. Karazahn has many aoe pulls full of non-elite mobs with one elite mob mixed in that can wreak havoc if not tanked. Always make sure the elites are tanked and you will be fine, as usually the non-elites die very easily.

Destinae
10-01-2008, 01:21 PM
I did what I could. I targeted the elites, but it was the non-elites that mobbed the healer and the mage because I didn't have enough aggro with them...it was just a disaster waiting to happen.

I didn't know you could pull one or even a small few at a time, since every time I touched one, 10 more would come screaming over. I will take the blame for that failure, not knowing enough about the instance and how to tank it correctly.

I think I'm just stuck on a server where people don't value druids as tanks. If I'm asked to join for an instance, it's always to heal. Why? I'm a great healer. Somehow I have that rep right now. I'm not even a resto druid. Maybe I should consider a career change...or a server change...LOL

"Oh, you need a healer for our group? I'll whisper Des, she's an awesome healer!!!"

I suppose I should be thankful that I'm useful and have a good rep as a healer. That's...sort of the opposite rep from what I'm going for though...I was looking for "You need a tank? Let me get Des!"

Allahanastar
10-01-2008, 02:55 PM
You technically don't have to pull any... they come streaming up the stairs to you. You just have to be patient.

You'll get there, the hard part is putting your foot down and really learning to tank. You may just have to PUG Outland instances to learn it.

Runyarusco
10-01-2008, 03:14 PM
I have been told that there "are" more hounds due to Brewfest, and also have heard that the number of mobs in there remains the same. They just seem a LOT more sensitive than I remember them being any other time I've gone in there. Coincidentally, there are new level 70 mobs by the mole machines. I can prowl right up on them and bounce around nearby. They don't care what I do. It's those stupid dogs...argh.

It's intensely frustrating. Like I said, it's now becoming more a matter of principle than even getting the idol. I'll figure something out. Maybe an invisibility potion to get through the mobs? Or a potion that keeps you from being tracked? Perhaps that would help get through the mobs?

Thank goodness I'm an alchemist. I'll do some homework on this and let you know what I find out.

I'm about to just head in there al'abandon out of pure frustration.

I'm hell bent on doing it...I will find a way.

The Idol of the Plainstalker (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37573) will be the quest reward green from Borean Tundra; you can compare it with the current Idol of Terror (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=33509).

I'm also particularly interested in the Idol of Perspicacious Attacks (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38365), which will be purchasable with 30 Venture Coins.

There will also be DPS oriented upgrades as well, similar to the Everbloom Idol and Idol of Feral Shadows. I wouldn't bother dicking around in BRD.

Destinae
10-01-2008, 04:01 PM
Runy, it's actually funny that you mentioned that, because with recent drama, I had honestly completely forgotten all about BRD and the idol.

I like my new idol. It makes me a happy kitty.

I'm not even finding PuG's that will allow me to tank. They all want pallies. Groovy. Tankadins FTW! Yeah! Meanwhile, Destinae, the tanking druid, stands in the unemployment line.

Allahanastar
10-01-2008, 04:07 PM
The other issue with the old Idol is that it affects Claw and Rake which you won't use if you've got Mangle. So really that Idol is a nice piece to say yeah I got it solo, but its really not worth even wearing. Feral druids by 50 should be using Mangle in their primary rotation. (Personal opinion not shared by everyone.... but hey... its mine :p)

Runyarusco
10-01-2008, 04:11 PM
The other issue with the old Idol is that it affects Claw and Rake which you won't use if you've got Mangle. So really that Idol is a nice piece to say yeah I got it solo, but its really not worth even wearing. Feral druids by 50 should be using Mangle in their primary rotation. (Personal opinion not shared by everyone.... but hey... its mine :p)

^ this. Mostly. If you're soloing, you will be using Claw and Rake at some point, but Mangle will occupy a major part of your kick-ass bits.

Destinae
10-01-2008, 04:14 PM
Yes. I LOVE Mangle. When soloing...prowl/pounce/mangle/shred by that time, the guy is 50% life or less and I haven't been touched yet. Evil little kitty. Yes I am!

I'm going to start pushing my guild to let me tank in instances so I actually get some hands-on learning. I think they might believe that by "telling" me what to do, that I'm learning. Not so. I need to tear it up hands on to learn. Buttons are meaningless unless you get to mash them while you're in a situation where you need to learn to use them.

Allahanastar
10-01-2008, 04:19 PM
Not everyone got the opportunities I did. When I was leveling the original game had been out for a while. So very few guild members wanted to do the lower level instances. And as you know... there's a horrid shortage of tanks overall. So 90% of the time if I wanted to see Deadmines... it meant I was tanking it. If I wanted to see Stockades... I had to tank it. So for me, on the way up I tanked almost everything. I think that's really where I learned it.. There were a ton of false starts... horrid wipes and other assorted nasty bits. But in the end, its what kept me going.

Destinae
10-01-2008, 04:41 PM
But see Alla, you learned through experiences and through wipes. Now, I've caused my fair share of wipes. I've been wiped by sloppy DPS and healers, too.

There's still a shortage of tanks as far as I know. But I always get "Well let me lead you through the first time..."

I understand the logic, but I hate it. It's like trying to teach a child to ride a bike by riding their bike around and making them watch you. They can see you peddling and holding the handle bars, but they have no concept of the balance needed to keep from crashing over and won't know how hard to squeeze the brakes to stop without flipping over the handle bars.

Allahanastar
10-01-2008, 05:10 PM
I do understand your concern Destinae. However one thing I've learned is that if you want to do it, some times its best to say, "you know what... go ahead and mark the pulls and give me your advice". Some times others have tips you wouldn't have thought of. It gives you a base set to start from, but there is definitely something to be said for doing it yourself too.

I feel you should be doing the tanking to learn, but there's nothing wrong with someone doing the marking for you on occassion or explaining what the mobs do etc. Otherwise its lots of reading over on Wowwiki.com to try to memorize every mob. I think the research is worth it, but not worth gettting overly stressed out over.

tlbj6142
10-01-2008, 08:21 PM
There's still a shortage of tanks as far as I know. I have never found this to be true on my server. It is the healers that are very, very hard to find.

Kheldar
10-02-2008, 03:23 AM
i learned my tanking in 5 mans whilst levelling.

i've been playing since Day 1 so everyone was levelling up at the same time so i got to do the low lvl stuff like WC/SFK etc and then really had fun doing a ton of runs in Strat / Scholo and DM type places.

was never allowed to tank in raids pre BC though and post BC i dont have time to raid :(


Well on my server tanks and healers aere still always in short supply and if anything its the tanks who are in more demand as i'm often seeing requests in trade / lfg asking where are all the tanks or have all the tanks gone on holiday...

Destinae
10-02-2008, 09:04 AM
I thank you all for your support! I will become an elite tank if it KILLS me. (It probably will, but that's part of the fun!)

If I can't get my group to put their faith in me as a tank, then I'll find PuG's to do it. I should probably consider getting better gear for tanking, since most of my gear is just heavy kitty gear. I think my armor in bear form at level 62 right now is roundabout 8K.

I don't have many defense rating items, as they're incredibly hard to find. I'll have to do some research.

Maybe what I'll do, is study some tanking guides for Ramps and Blood Furnace to the point where I could run them with my eyes closed, then I'll make sure I'm geared for whatever comes my way in there and just show the people around me that I AM a tank to be reckoned with. Maybe that's how I can earn more opportunities to tank, rather than DPS or heal.

My other question, is it possible to have too much Agi in kitty form?

I'm not sure how much I have, but it seems like I crit at least every other hit. Just a curious question.

Any recommendations for decent tanking gear for 63-64?

Allahanastar
10-02-2008, 09:06 AM
There's the bogstok cloak in Slave pens. That's a pretty awesome thing... if you can find it, there is a tanking staff, but I don't remember what the level requirements are... most people start Kara with that staff.

The key is finding the leather with the most armor and the cloaks... For rings you'd need to get two of the rings off of Ramparts at your level. There is a ring in the chest at the end occassionally with like 170 armor. Beyond that around 65-68 the best place is probably CoT Durnhold. There are several nice pieces in there.

Closer to 70 I know a ton of good quest rewards, but getting there is the hard part :p

Oiysters
10-02-2008, 04:21 PM
I have never found this to be true on my server. It is the healers that are very, very hard to find.

I get peppered with tells now every time I log on to KT. Not because I'm special, but because of a tank shortage. Soon to end with the intro of DK's though.

Destinae
10-02-2008, 04:51 PM
True. I'm imagining that, again, I'll find myself sidelined once the DK's start leveling up and taking tanking spots. I'm going to end up resto.

The big joke in our guild is how, when my husband tanks with his druid, he usually makes the group bring me as his healer, and I just...don't...get...to tank...but it's a "funny" thing because he plans on going resto and I'm struggling to stay feral. Well, it's funny to everyone else...

Oiysters
10-02-2008, 05:15 PM
Well...I can think if several ways for you to motivate your husband to get on the right side of things...:icon_lol:

Persistence will pay off though, don't give up!

Destinae
10-03-2008, 10:03 AM
Hehe Oiysters! I can think of a few ways too. I just explained my view on it, and why I'm so stubborn about it and he's willing to let me try now.

Did I mention I also threatened to go Resto, taking his healer position away in our guild and forcing him to stay feral and OT for us? I may have forgotten to mention that...

Oiysters
10-03-2008, 01:48 PM
L O L! Way to go Dest!

Destinae
10-03-2008, 04:27 PM
I win! Victory!

Actually, I was scouring this entire forum for info.

I think I made a mistake in leveling. I'm 63, finished almost all of the HFP quests, and STILL haven't run Ramps or any of the HFP instances.

I read on one of the threads here that you have to do all of the rep related things and instances first, then quest.

Now I'm in Zangarmarsh as a sad panda thinking I messed up a bit.

Will my backwards approach hurt me? Or is the expansion close enough that I may not really have to worry about it?

Oiysters
10-03-2008, 04:44 PM
I doubt the lack of rep will hurt you with the expansion so close. There are some nice bear tanking items that drop in instances, particularly in ramps that would make it worth running for you. Ramps is also a very good learning dungeon for a tank. None of the gear is important enough for you to sacrifice getting to 68 before Nov. 13th though. That should be your priority.

Destinae
10-03-2008, 04:48 PM
Well, there's always good XP to be had from Dungeon Quests. And I'm going to make a round and see if I can pick the last few up in HFP.

I enjoy instancing, so I wouldn't skip this one. I've heard it's a really fun run.

Leveling remains my priority. I actually really want to hit 70 by the end of October so I can see the Headless Horseman in Scarlet Monastery. I've heard my guildies tell some wild stories about him, and I'm wanting to tank him SO bad!

I was just afraid I'd done the rep backwards and it would kill me. I can always go back and grind I imagine, if need be, after level 80 and my other rep grinds are satisfied.

Claritondeus
10-06-2008, 01:36 PM
If you do plan on going resto at some point, you will want to have at least revered with Honor Hold (all the hfc instances and quests) so that you can get the + healing head enchant.

If you plan on tanking, you will want to have revered with Keepers of Time (old hillsbrad and black morass) for the dodge / defense head enchant.

If you plan on being kitty dps, you will want to have revered with Cenarion Expedition (coilfang instances) for the damage / hit head enchant.

Those are really the only reasons any more to grind rep pre-wotlk. I haven't read anything about updated head enchants, though there will probably be some, so dont worry if you can't / don't get revered before mid-Nov.

The Dungeon quests often have good blue item rewards as well. Ramparts and Blood Furnace are both pretty easy instances, and are fun as well. On a side note, if you do have to 'go back' and grind, imagine how easy and quick it will be tanking in instances that you vastly outlevel :). I always found that a mix of instances (look them up on wowhead.com to make sure that you have all the quests for them to maximize xp / hour while in there) and questing to be the fastest way to level.

Too bad you weren't able to do the Brewfest bosses for free epics, but if you're 70 by the end of Oct, the Headless Horsemen drops some really nice free epic rings (iirc from last year)

Destinae
10-06-2008, 02:32 PM
Well, I hit 65 last night, and that was after a week's worth of grinding. 5 levels in one week isn't too bad and I haven't yet run the instances I have quests for yet.

I'll have to hit Hellfire really soon though because the quest just turned green last night. I want to make sure I still get some credit for it. I'd be sad if I missed out.

As for Rep...I'll have to get going on that too. I've been working on Sporeggar...What can I say? I LOVE killing Naga!

Allahanastar
10-06-2008, 03:05 PM
Wow... 5 levels in Outland in a week??? Thats amazing...

I usually manage 2 a week in Outland. Of course after the patch 4-5 a week seems pretty easy to maintain at least I hope so :p

Claritondeus
10-06-2008, 03:24 PM
I've alwasy wanted to get exalted for Sporeggar - the tabard is awesome (I'm a big fan of mushrooms) and I really want one of those pets. (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34478) :)

And grats on 65 - you're flying through the levels. As soon as you go back and do those instances, you will pick up a ton of XP.

When you hit 66 you will get lacerate, which will make tanking / holding aggro a lot easier. (but imo go tank some before getting it so you can see the difference)

Destinae
10-06-2008, 03:24 PM
Thank you! I hit Outlands a few weeks ago but didn't really even start questing until early last week. I just couldn't stand the pigs. Hated the land itself. Loathed Fel Reaver.

I loved Zangarmarsh though. That area went by too quickly IMO. I'd have loved to stayed there for a little while longer. It's pretty and the quests were a lot of fun!

Terrokar isn't bad either. I just really want to hit 70 so I can start my dailies, so I can see Kara, and so I can start working toward Epic Flight form. I might not be able to use it while questing in the expansion, but I'll be able to use it every time I'm in Outlands. :)

Claritondeus
10-06-2008, 03:29 PM
Zangarmarsh was my favorite zone by far.

Blades Edge Mountain is also pretty cool, with all the spikes and impaled dragons and stuff.

The quests in Terrokar are ok... if you are into grinding, Nagrand has a bunch of "kill 30 of x mobs" type quests that give a lot of xp. (I just picked up my shadow priest again after not playing her in 6 months and am questing in Nagrand at 68. Want to get to 70 on her before WOTLK too just cause).

Epic flight form go :P

tlbj6142
10-06-2008, 03:55 PM
The Terrokar quests are spread out quite a bit since there are 3-4 quest hubs each with a nearly equal number of quests.

Nagrand is really nice since 80% of the quest come from your home city in the zone. The rest are from 1-2 other locations, but you stumble across those locations while performing other quests, which makes for a nice "tight" questing zone.

BEM is nice as well. Especially since you'll probably have your flight form by the time you reach BEM or shortly after. That alone makes questing much easier as you can take directly paths to targets rather than following roads, etc.

I hit lvl 70 with both of my toons about a third of the way thru BEM.

Destinae
10-06-2008, 04:03 PM
I can't WAIT for flight form. I'll be able to fly from place to place versus riding on roads to farm Herbs as well, so that'll make things a little easier.

It's just too bad we can't fly in Old World.

I didn't realize how time consuming and difficult the final grind to 70 was...

Allahanastar
10-06-2008, 04:45 PM
Quick tip... as soon as you get flight form spend the next 2 hours flying around getting the "discovery" xp from all of the zones you haven't completed or sections of the map you haven't uncovered. Its a good chunk of XP really.

Destinae
10-06-2008, 04:46 PM
Really? Sneaky, but that sounds FUN! And I imagine that gets you used to flight form. And I'll get to pick herbs I haven't even MET yet! Great idea Alla! Thank you!!!

Things just keep getting more and more exciting!

Allahanastar
10-06-2008, 04:48 PM
Yeah I failed to do that myself, but a friend did it later and got a good chunk of XP out of it. If you can swim, flying is cake. I actually find flying in anything but flight form bothers me on my alts.

Destinae
10-06-2008, 04:49 PM
Soon this young druid will get her wings! I absolutely can not WAIT!

I was looking back at where this post started. We should have probably moved this to a "general" chat sort of thread. I get so sidetracked so easily...

tlbj6142
10-06-2008, 07:29 PM
Quick tip... as soon as you get flight form spend the next 2 hours flying around getting the "discovery" xp from all of the zones you haven't completed or sections of the map you haven't uncovered.I just discovered an area of BEM the other day when I flew over on the way to Gruuls from Mags. And I know there are huge chunks of NS and SMV I've never discovered.

No achievements for me.... :tut:

Destinae
10-07-2008, 09:33 AM
We ran ramps and blood furnace last night. No staff for this bear though. Got some decent XP. Without rest XP I got about 1/3 a bar of XP after turning in two quests and hitting both instances.

It was a miserable experience for Des Druid as far as tanking. Started off with 9k+ armor in bear form. Ended the night with about 1400-ish armor in bear form. :banghead:

At least the rogue (my guild GM) could "vanish" and get away without wiping with the rest of us.

Allahanastar
10-07-2008, 11:07 AM
Highly recommend repairs when you are that low... its worth it if anything is broken to just stop... repair and then move on.

Destinae
10-07-2008, 12:09 PM
That was the tally after the final go at the Blood Furnace boss with all the casters around him.

I would have just gone to the instance to resurrect then come back out and repair, but by the end of the night I was so frustrated at my tanking effort = epic fail that I just wanted to get it over with. With one damaged piece of armor I still had a nice bit of armor to continue. It was the repeated wiping on the last boss there that did me in finally.

Claritondeus
10-07-2008, 12:35 PM
What were the problems that you were having on the last boss? And what was the group comp?

tlbj6142
10-07-2008, 12:39 PM
With the last boss, just try to hold 2-3 of the casters and have the rest of the group DPS down the remaining without a tank (mark the kill order on the un-tanked adds). As soon as the main guy breaks free, you have to pick him up and turn him away from the group. In fact you should target him before the last channeler is dead, so you can growl and turn him around as soon as he is targetable.

Claritondeus
10-07-2008, 12:55 PM
Helps a lot to have a dispeller (ideally a priest or pally for dispel and shadow resist buff / aura).

They should be dispelling the debuffs that the channelers put on the party (increases shadow damage taken).

Like tlbj said, grab him right away (feral charge) then growl then turn him away (so the shadow bolt volley doesn't hit the raid). When he yells something like "come closer and burn" turn around and run away. After he AoE's feral charge back to him and growl and start mangling / mauling.

Destinae
10-07-2008, 01:02 PM
Group make up was a lvl 66 Hunter (Beast Mastery I believe), a lvl 67 Rogue (Sub), a level 68 Feral Druid in Healer Gear, and myself, lvl 65 in all of my infinite RAWRness.

The problem on the last boss was that the hunter didn't seem to grasp the LoS pull to begin with. We could get through the casters, but the healer would inevitably be OOM by the time the boss came running out. His AoE and random-target shadowy bolts were terrible.

I think the group was just doomed from the start. We went through a few different DPS people, had a healer that insisted on pulling...ended up booting him and having the other druid heal. Great fun.

tlbj6142
10-07-2008, 01:39 PM
Resto healing is really tough on that fight since it has so much AoE damage.

Destinae
10-07-2008, 02:14 PM
I can only imagine...Luckily for us though, our GM was with us and she knew enough to make us run away every time he was getting ready to cast his AoE fire attack. The shadow bolts were painful though...

Destinae
10-09-2008, 08:55 AM
Destinae got a new toy last night for Kitty form...thanks to the help of a friend and his posse...<a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25761#reward-from">Meow Baby!</a>

Now all I have to do is either pray for <a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31186#dropped-by">this</a> to drop or just hit the AH for it, though I haven't seen it just yet on our AH :(

Kheldar
10-09-2008, 09:18 AM
staff of beasts was a very nice weapon from RoB quest reward fro us ferals.

Braxxis to is very nice until you get the rep for Earthwarden http://thottbot.com/i29171

usually a couple on our AH and last time i saw then they were going for no more than 50g ?

Destinae
10-09-2008, 09:35 AM
Kheldar, I'm going to try and get my paws on the Staff of Slumber tonight to use until I get my coveted Earthwarden.

Although, I was just reading a post by Solarflash about them nerfing our armor and stuff, so now I'm really just confused as to what I'll need to tank after 3.0.2 hits...which stats etc etc...

And I'm not sure what "they've nerfed our armor" truly means or whether it's good or not.

I refer to the post "Def on Bear Gear?" by Solarflash.

Kheldar
10-09-2008, 09:48 AM
just replied to you about uncrittable on the other thread .

i'm in no way someone who keeps up with everything that's new/coming or any good at understanding/theorycrafting anything but as i understand it (no doubt i will be put right later!) the simple fact is that Blizz have removed crushing blows from the game mechanics meaning our need for so much armour for mitigation has been somewhat reduced - even in view of our inability to block/parry.

on the test realm / in beta it was said that bear tanks without this armour nerf were simply soo good that no other tanking class would have been in with much of a chance to tank the new high end content in a raiding guild.

so whilst i enjoyed having really high armour and saw it as a difference between us and other tanks i think its not going to actually hurt our chances to be viable end game tanks.

from memory there are still going to be some good trinkets/rings/necks with +armour for us to get our paws on but AR ratings on leather armour are going to be less than we're used to - including reducing it on our current gear which is gonna hurt when i first log in and see my wonderful armour level gone down by a chunk :(

Destinae
10-09-2008, 10:13 AM
:cry: Me too. I just got two pieces of the Heavy Clefthoof set last night and I was going to try and scrounge up the leggings soon and get my Staff of Slumber.

But with our talents, we should effectively balance out with other tanking classes in the end, correct?

Do we just not need as much armor then?

Kheldar
10-09-2008, 10:15 AM
again someone with more knowledge will probably make a much better explanation than me...

but from what i have read the changes being made meant our armour being so high plus our other abilities and high stam made us just to good over ALL the other tanking classes.

hence the nerf to the multiplier.

Destinae
10-09-2008, 10:19 AM
So, then...is it the leather armor taking the hit? Our Bear form multiplier? Or both?

Oiysters
10-09-2008, 10:29 AM
The multiplier was nerfed from 400% to 370%; bonus armor on items will be removed (if you have items with the armor number in green, those items have bonus armor on them), and they changed our Primal Instinct talent to only affect cat form.

They changed the underlying math and game mechanics so it is no longer necessary for bear tanks to have huge armor numbers to be viable tanks. There are many changes, but we are viable and competetive tanks.

Destinae
10-09-2008, 10:45 AM
That's all I needed to hear Oiysters.

I am one happy little druid. Once we get through that initial transition period at the beginning of the Expansion I think we'll all be happy druids. Yay for Newbiness! My naivety helps keep me content during transitions like this.

Kheldar
10-09-2008, 11:46 AM
to me it just seems like we'll be the same as other tanks.

it was fun having the huge armour / stam - made us like proper big bears / roar

Destinae
10-09-2008, 12:16 PM
It still seems like we'll be able to get the big armor though, in some way or another. At least that's my hope. They may find that they've made some mistakes on nerfing us bears and patch us up later on. One never can tell.

I'm thinking of bringing up my Pally and Warrior as tanks anyway. That way, I'll always have one character or another to be able to participate in a raid.

Oiysters
10-09-2008, 12:28 PM
I won't argue against there being a way to make all tanking classes viable and competetive without making us near copies of each other. However, I am content with having our hybrid penalty tax removed so that we are viable and competetive in whatever spec we choose.

Kheldar
10-09-2008, 12:39 PM
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/10/07/shifting-perspectives-dude-wheres-my-armor/

take a look here for some more talk about this armour issue and more importantly some examples of where we are losing armour....

Allahanastar
10-09-2008, 01:08 PM
Overall we take a big hit on a stat we used to love. I know I loved seeing that I was almost at 36k armor. It was great, but they've changed so much that we need to just accept that:
1. We'll still have more armor than a lot of other tanks.
2. We'll have more HP than those tanks.
3. We won't have block or parry.
4. Our dodge will probably make up for our lack of parry.
5. We are going to do way more damage than any of the other "tank" classes while tank spec'd.

So while we take some hits on certain stats, we are probably on par with other tanks. Block... sure we don't have it, but block only knocks a little off the damage. Our extra HP should make up the difference. We just tank differently.

I really think by homogenizing the tanks they are setting up druids to win overall. My gut feel says that druid players tend to be a bit harder working and have this drive for excellence (if this community is one to be judged against). Those who work hard will rise above and people can't use the standard, "well this fight is just better tanked by a warrior" crap. The better tanks, the more skilled players are going to rise.

tlbj6142
10-09-2008, 01:22 PM
I really think by homogenizing the tanks they are setting up druids to win overall.But we don't have has many buttons to push as warriors. QQ. Bear tanking is boring, I'm gonna roll a Prot Warrior.



IMO, with LK we have too many buttons...

Destinae
10-09-2008, 01:26 PM
druid players tend to be a bit harder working and have this drive for excellence

I have to agree. From meeting all of you here, knowing a few druid tanks in game and friends on other servers...Yes, I think "druid people" are a little different from Pally people or Warrior People.

We aren't made of plated metal armor. We don't have AoE's that cause apocalyptic amounts of threat for us. We are large bears. Roar.

That, in and of itself, makes druiding the most fun thing I've done in game so far. Des was my first and only for QUITE some time, and looking back, I wouldn't have it any other way.

target: TLBJ /cast MEGA HUG

I kinda like more buttons...takes the monotony and tediousness away from the tanking rotation I've had before lvl 66...enrage, mangle, swipe, swipe, swipe, mangle, swipe, maul, swipe, swipe, mangle...

Claritondeus
10-09-2008, 02:00 PM
But we don't have has many buttons to push as warriors. QQ. Bear tanking is boring, I'm gonna roll a Prot Warrior.

Prot warrior tanking isnt very fun. I personally like tanking on my druid much better.

tlbj6142
10-09-2008, 02:01 PM
Prot warrior tanking isnt very fun. I personally like tanking on my druid much better.I don't believe it. They get so many buttons to push. That must be amazing.

Claritondeus
10-09-2008, 02:21 PM
Well, having shield bash silence is fun. And spell reflect is fun. Having Last Stand and Shield Wall are nice too. I guess I can't say that its not fun.

Other than that, its just hitting shield slam, thunderclap, then spamming devestate while waiting for slam to cooldown, and making sure that you hit shield block whenever it is off cooldown and throwing in demo shouts if there is a free GCD.

Definitley more buttons to push, and it's fun to look at a heavily armored toon as opposed to a huge hairy butt for long periods of time. different.

tlbj6142
10-09-2008, 02:34 PM
Yea. I like my druid tanking. However, I have seen pages of posts from those that are having major QQ fits about the lack of new buttons for bears. I don't get it....

"Warriors have 25 buttons, Druids only have 15."

From what you said above it looks like Warriors have nearly the same number of actively used buttons as bears.

Claritondeus
10-09-2008, 02:46 PM
I left out occasional intervenes (feral charges), and trinkets which is more or less the same for either class. I find I tab-devestate (tab-lacerate) more often than cleaving (swipe), but I'm not sure which is better. Warriors have to remember to keep up shouts (pita more than anything). Oh, disarm is fun too, that helps with some trash (that isn't immune).

In wotlk, there are going to be some really fun prot warrior talents, which may be where some of the qq is coming from.

Destinae
10-09-2008, 02:49 PM
Well I read through "Dude, Where's My Armor?" quickly.

It still seems odd to me that we'll be able to make ourselves unable to be critically hit just with talent points. Are the other tanking classes also able to do this?

When the patch comes out, I presume it will change my focus as far as what stats I will then need as I approach End Game.

No longer will I search for +Defense to reach the magical number, 415. Will we then just be stacking stam until we can't possibly carry any more in order to make up for the other nerfs we're going to see?

The bonus though, is that Rings and things like the Earthwarden don't seem to be getting nerfed at all. So, perhaps we will see better tanking weapons, neck pieces and rings later on in game that will help us make up for being punted?

tlbj6142
10-09-2008, 02:54 PM
It still seems odd to me that we'll be able to make ourselves unable to be critically hit just with talent points. Are the other tanking classes also able to do this?Nope. They have a few talents that reduce the amount of +def they need, but nothing that removes it entirely.The bonus though, is that Rings and things like the Earthwarden don't seem to be getting nerfed at all. So, perhaps we will see better tanking weapons, neck pieces and rings later on in game that will help us make up for being punted?Correct, rings, trinkets, weapons and neck pieces have lots of armor on them in LK. However, most have +def on them as well. Stupid.

There are a few items that have "dodge/parry rating" on them. When you see the "dodge/parry" notation, that means if you can parry you get parry rating from the pieces, otherwise you get dodge rating. So, that helps bears a bit.

Claritondeus
10-09-2008, 03:09 PM
Correct, rings, trinkets, weapons and neck pieces have lots of armor on them in LK. However, most have +def on them as well. Stupid.

Agreed with this. It's the homogenezation of gear. Lame. They are making it so that the loot tables drop unusable / undesirable gear less often, which in theory is a good thing. But people are still going to have to wait just as long to get the gear they are going after, as more than likeley 2 or 3 or more people will be rolling for the same piece, as opposed to now as certain things are optimized for certain classes.

Destinae
10-09-2008, 03:18 PM
Nope. They have a few talents that reduce the amount of +def they need, but nothing that removes it entirely.

That seems unbalanced in a way though. Druids can just talent up and reduce the chance they'll be crit hit to zero. Other tanks have to talent up and still push for gear?

I imagine that's one of the zillion reasons us lovable lil bears are getting nerfed though.

So, for tanking now...well from patch implementation to level 80...any ideas on what stats we're going to be grinding for?

Abies
10-09-2008, 03:27 PM
the same as before. AC, agi, dodge, sta, crit, AP

Destinae
10-09-2008, 03:44 PM
Gonna resort to newbie-ness...AC?

Abies
10-09-2008, 03:55 PM
You've got me there... I could only guess what it stands for. Armor count? Armor class?

But it is a synonym for armor (the number on an item). Sometimes using AC is less confusing, as armor has several meanings.

Claritondeus
10-09-2008, 03:56 PM
armor contribution i think.

Abies
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
the same as before. AC, agi, dodge, sta, crit, AP

Just to clarify something: this ordering does not apply always. Stamina's importance depends on how much you have. If you are too low, it becomes the most important stat to stack. If you have enough (in TBC at 70 that would be 20-25k buffed in T5 content and above), it becomes far less important.

tlbj6142
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
That seems unbalanced in a way though. Druids can just talent up and reduce the chance they'll be crit hit to zero. Other tanks have to talent up and still push for gear?I agree. I thought I read that Warriors almost need a full T7 set before they can be uncritable.

Abies
10-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Yeah, I don't get that either. I mean, I am happy we don't have to stack it anymore, don't get me wrong. But just giving druids an advantage because they want to homogenize armor and don't want to have to add leather tanking items is somewhat unfair.
On the other hand, they can balance it out by requiring druids to have more of the other stats. Or maybe it is balanced out by us not being able to parry and therefor having to stack more agility.

tlbj6142
10-09-2008, 04:29 PM
If they gave us say 4% and we had to come up with the remaining 1.6% that would be fine. As I know we could get a bit of +def from our rings, necks, trinkets(?), gems, enchants???

But I'm not gonna complain too loudly.

I'm still not sure why we get 6%, when you only need 5.6% to be uncritable. Maybe it was easier to put in the tooltip as 6%.

skwidrific
10-09-2008, 05:31 PM
Gonna resort to newbie-ness...AC?

Probably Armor Class, which is more of an old Dungeons & Dragons term than anything else...

oh god... i think i just dated myself :bonk:

Oiysters
10-09-2008, 06:46 PM
Probably Armor Class, which is more of an old Dungeons & Dragons term than anything else...

oh god... i think i just dated myself

Exactly right...and you just dated us both!

Tankwhomee
10-10-2008, 02:12 AM
Exactly right...and you just dated us both!

LOL , another one dated here! I still remember rolling rangers on a cardboard cutout , then waiting around 45 minutes for some other idiot to roll his dice so we could enter a dungeon!:sleep:

Destinae
10-13-2008, 10:24 AM
I missed the boat on D&D guys. Sort of wishing I had experienced it though now, since there are a LOT of references by other players, in game, to DnD. I just stand there looking like a ferocious, but confused little druid...

And I took the advice you guys gave "When you get flight form, go explore and get the exploration XP".

Yes, very nice chunk of XP. Being curious proves to be fatal more often than not for me, and this weekend was no different.

One of the other threads had mentioned that we're still supposed to be using our BC stat priorities. So, then it still would make sense for us to get the Heavy Clefthoof set until something better comes along?

I currently have 2 of the pieces, but couldn't bring myself to hand over 1k gold for the leggings (That's about all of the gold I have currently). I wanted to see if you guys still thought that set was worth it at this point or not.

Kheldar
10-13-2008, 10:43 AM
1k gold for heavy clefthoof leggings !

thats crazy. i'd forget them or find someone in guild etc to make after farming mats ?

they are gonna be armour nerfed soon anyways......

Destinae
10-13-2008, 12:05 PM
See, that's why I'm asking Khel. I'm trying to find out if it's worth trying to obtain them or not. I have 2 of the pieces (Vest and Boots) right now. I'm going to stack solid stars of elune for the stam, unless I can find something better. But with all of the armor nerfing, will it still be worth it?

Is the Earthwarden still going to be worth it? I just got my staff of slumber, and after the multiplier it gave me a ridiculous amount of armor...but knowing that our multiplier is going to be going to be docked 30% - are these items still going to be worth it?

Kheldar
10-13-2008, 12:48 PM
they are probably worth it for now if you can get a guildie to make / farm the mats.

they certainly are not worth hundreds of gold to buy them.

earthwarden is still very nice. depends how close to exalted you are and if you run coilfang places anyway ?

i'm not sure wot items we will get quickly after 70 when wrath hits ? ie how soon something might replace earthwarden.

Destinae
10-13-2008, 01:15 PM
We shall see. I have nearly a month to grind CE rep to get the coveted Earth Warden.

I managed to snag both the Heavy Clefthoof boots and vest for just over 100G for both. Easily affordable and saves me from having to farm mats. I will have to find a way to farm the mats for it, though, being an herbalist makes it a little tough...

Oiysters
10-13-2008, 03:49 PM
Earthwarden will serve you well for quite awhile. There is a level 71 green quest reward that as more armor but no stam on wowhead, but I don't think wowhead's LK database is complete yet. There may be more tanking staffs that we don't know about yet, but the next one I found is at level 76, then the next is at level 80.

Allahanastar
10-13-2008, 03:52 PM
The staff at 76 is amazingly good too.

Kheldar
10-14-2008, 03:12 AM
you should be able to do some horse trading for the mats with a guildie Dest ? herbs for leather ?

yeah i think thats the issue Oiy - we're not totally sure of what's going to be available to us or how easy it will be to get it. atm running some coilfangs, is probably not that onerous.

so EW could be a good weapon to have til lvl 76 then ?

out of interest what stats are we talking about on the lvl 76 one ? quest reward ? or random drop ?

Destinae
10-14-2008, 08:41 AM
I'll try and dig up the mats. I have about 2 levels to do so...I do have a guildie who can make them. My guildies are amazing to say the least!

I'll work on the mats then, since you guys still say it's worth it. And you mention another staff that gives more armor but less stam. Can you not pick up the staff for the armor, then stack stam elsewhere? Or is it just not worth it?

Oiysters
10-14-2008, 12:17 PM
FAP Staves with armor (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?items=2.10&filter=cr=97:41;crs=1:1;crv=0:0#0-2-3+1)

Destinae
10-14-2008, 12:27 PM
Some of those staves are sick. But even the Staff of Slumber seems a little better than some of the lower level 70 staves. Am I wrong?

Oiysters
10-14-2008, 02:30 PM
The stam on the Staff of Slumber is not worth giving up the armor and the FAP and the expertise on the Hungering Greatstaff, imo. AP=threat.

Destinae
10-14-2008, 02:52 PM
I imagine that the 616 Armor would help to offset the stam loss then?

I was referring more to the staves that only offer 300 armor or so with the stam, agi, AP adds. Maybe I'm still unclear on what my stat priorities should be now that +Def isn't necessary with a fully talented SotF.

I'd think you'd want to fully talent the SotF to replace that stat slot with something else. Am I wrong?

Oiysters
10-14-2008, 04:47 PM
Ahh, I see. Those staves that have 3xx armor are not new for WotLK, only the ones with an item level of 138 or higher are new. Definitely fully talent SotF, it will simplify things.

New stat priority for bears has been shown pretty conclusively to be armor>stam>agility.

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 03:11 AM
cant see those items past the firewall :(

but 616 armour on one sounds nice :)

so we're still looking to stack Armour as priority number 1 then Oiy.....shown conclusively from the beta i assume ?

Allahanastar
10-15-2008, 08:39 AM
The 616's problem is that it has no stats. Its only major stat is 616 armor which makes it kind of useless. It has a lot of expertise, but I personally passed on it because of its lack of any stats. Armor is good, but I won't take armor over that many stats. Plus half our armor in Northrend has hit or expertise on it because of rogues.

Destinae
10-15-2008, 08:58 AM
That's kind of what I thought Alla, but with the armor reductions both in our Multiplier and no more bonus armor, I don't imagine the extra armor would hurt anything. This, of course, is assuming that other gear, enchants, gems, and now inscriptions will help us make up for the loss of stats.

I've heard so many conflicting views on the armor reduction/lack of bonus armor that I barely know what to think right now. I've heard our DR is still very high and that we won't even "notice" the difference.

Too bad I can't get into Dire Bear IRL to survive the general/trade chat channels. Armor reduction or no, you need some sort of thick skin to survive in there. :(

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 09:07 AM
oh well i'll be going home in about an hour to hopefully sort out my new talent build and have some fun !

Destinae
10-15-2008, 09:18 AM
Enjoy Kheldar! Talent trees...yay! :physics:

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 09:40 AM
assumes the server are up and working Dest !

with Blizz...... ;)

Destinae
10-15-2008, 09:52 AM
Yes, rolling server restarts. YAY!

Allahanastar
10-15-2008, 10:01 AM
Whisperwind was kind of a yo yo yesterday. Its pretty typical though right after the new patches like these. Lots of things that just never got tested under load in the PTR crop up.

Destinae
10-15-2008, 10:14 AM
I don't mind it really. I could use the R&R (and gaining rest XP won't kill me either, since I ran out over the weekend).

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 10:58 AM
well i am home and its installing the patch.

says 98% but very slow. despite the fact i thought i had downloaded 100% of it a few days back ?

Destinae
10-15-2008, 11:18 AM
I feel your pain Khel. It took hours for the download/update installation last night. I needed the rest XP really badly, so I was fine with it.

My husband messaged me at work telling me that Kalimdor was down. Not a server, but at least the portal in Shattrath to Darnassus was not functioning.

Now we begin the quest to update the addons so that they're functional within the new patch. :) Good luck Khel!

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 11:21 AM
now the blizzard updater is running. at 40%.

why on earth does it take so long when i had it downloaded days ago.

/sigh.

oh well back to unloading the dishwasher and doing the veg for tea !

Destinae
10-15-2008, 12:04 PM
I'm sorry Khel. :(

If it makes you feel any better, it took me almost 7 hrs to finally get everything installed/updated/functioning and then logged in to get a message that my server was restarting in 2 minutes.

It was just before work, so I wasn't intending on staying logged in. I really just wanted to see the new log in and loading screen and take a peak at my now empty talent tree.

target: Kheldar, cast:/hug

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 12:18 PM
i'm in Dest ! must have been your /hug that did it :)

zomg i'm impressed so far.

the graphics are like way good - so much clearer/sharper - its like playing in in HD ?

new log in screen is good.

i love the new currency tab
i love the gone from bags
i love the revised way it shows rep

just gonna try update some addons...

Claritondeus
10-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Yeah, I noticed the saem thing about the graphics...

I was wondering if it was because I didn't have any of my mod's loaded (so it was running much smoother), or what.

But it did look much more clear / crisp / sharp. Love that.

I opened WoW yesterday before I went to work, and came home to it ready to play :) Man, I really miss Bongos and my old keybinds. Made it really hard to play, trying to use the default Blizz UI after years of custom ones.

Overall everything is a lot better imo. Battlegrounds are crazy. So many weird buffs that I have never seen before and WTF DIVINESTORM RET PALLIES O.o

How are the addon updates coming Khel? I didn't realize how much I missed DBM, Bongos, Xpearl, SCT, Outfitter, etc.

Oiysters
10-15-2008, 12:53 PM
Yeah Khel, armor is now > all for us, confirmed. Multiple folks doing statistical analysis all came to the same conclusion.

The last small patch corrupted my install last night...I had to uninstall, chkdsk, defrag, and reinstall WoW from zero...kind of a bummer.

And all the addon sites are fubar, so I am trying to play naked lol. At least there is a built in calendar and threat meter now.

I miss my addons...

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 01:08 PM
just downlaoding updates to

Gatherer
Omen
Ratings Buster
Recount
Outfitter or wotever its called

or trying to....server connection resets....think everyone in the world is trying to access curse to :(

Allahanastar
10-15-2008, 01:44 PM
FYI... apparently Bongos has been replaced by Dominos. The guy who wrote Bongos realized he didn't like where it was going and redid it from the ground up as Dominos. I'm going to download it and test it tonight.

Destinae
10-15-2008, 02:26 PM
I can't survive without QuestHelper and Cartographer. I just can't. Please tell me we'll get that back soon!

Sounds like whining, but if I can get lost WITH Cartographer and Quest Helper, just imagine this little druid without it!

Allahanastar
10-15-2008, 02:31 PM
Both were updated today. Just check Curse.

Destinae
10-15-2008, 03:16 PM
PHEW! /thank -> Alla

I'll be doing that install first thing then, and then the dreaded talent tree. I'm good with 1 point at a time. The instant you give me 59 talent points to play with all at once...things get dangerous.

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 04:29 PM
i still not sorted my talents.

but i do know that trying to play feral in patch 3 with no talents is a nitemare !

2 mobs and i'm nearly dead in cat !

Destinae
10-15-2008, 04:31 PM
Yikes! Sounds daring! Yay Khel!

Allahanastar
10-15-2008, 04:37 PM
PHEW! /thank -> Alla

I'll be doing that install first thing then, and then the dreaded talent tree. I'm good with 1 point at a time. The instant you give me 59 talent points to play with all at once...things get dangerous.

Wowhead Talent Calculator is your friend. Live it.... breathe it... love it. Or Blizzard has one too, but I can't access that from work.... :(

Kheldar
10-15-2008, 04:40 PM
Yikes! Sounds daring! Yay Khel!
its scary Dest.

i used to rip through 5 or 6 mobs in cat form doing the netherstorm attack plans daily.

now it seems i cant do dps and i lost hp like its going out of fashion if 2 attack me at the same time :(

but i really cant decide....do i want OoC ? or Beserk for the next few weeks ?

or do i just say to hell with it and try oomkin and get starfall :flipbg:




is it me or is the wow forums talents no uptodate ?

its Protector of the Pack in game but Mother Bear on the official wow forums ?

Destinae
10-15-2008, 04:45 PM
I don't think they're up to date. Lots of people complained about "Mother Bear" (male druids...mother bear...you do the math LOL)

But I'm going to spend some time with my talent calculator before I log in and see what I think I'll like. Can always respec later, right?

Hypnotiq
10-18-2008, 04:37 PM
This is by far the most popular post in the feral forums.
3 cheers.

Kheldar
10-19-2008, 05:53 AM
we're all too lazt to start a new topic :p

Destinae
10-21-2008, 01:17 PM
Well it isn't ALL that we're too lazy to start a new topic...I'm bringing it back around to my original topic today actually.

I have all 3 pieces of my Heavy Clefthoof set, but even with that and the staff of slumber, in bear form, I think I have about 11,200 armor. I haven't put any gems in it yet, but I'm thinking of putting Solid Stars of Elune in every gem slot on the armor (as I was advised to do by a "druid mentor" in game). But I thought I'd see how you all felt about that. Are there other gems I should slide in there? What enchants should I be looking for?

It seems so low though :(.

What are the minimum stats for Kara now as far as Def, Hit Rating, Dodge, etc that we need?

I'm fully talented in SotF, so I'm not sure what stats to give when I'm asked for them. I've been being eyed up as fresh meat for Kara, and it's quite intimidating because I'm not sure I'm geared for it and I don't want to bring a good group down.

I have gotten a few whispers asking for my stats and I'm never sure how to answer or what they're looking for. (And they always catch me in kitty gear, so when I shift into bear...it isn't until then that I realize that I'm in the wrong gear...Grrr)

(BTW, I'm a newborn lvl 70 as I just hit on Saturday)

And if anyone can help me set up my talent tree for a mainly bear build that would be awesome. I did the talent calculator, and thought I had gone exactly according to my plan but everything got all messed up after the servers went down for the umteenth time...so I'm not sure if I've gone in the right or wrong direction. I just noticed last night that at least one of my talent points is no longer on my tree...??

Claritondeus
10-21-2008, 01:42 PM
Grats on 70 Dest!!!

You don't need any Def at all (as you are crit immune through talents). Whats your health at? Whats your dodge at in bear? You can never go wrong with a ton of health imo. Also, agi is your friend, cause more dodge = less damage taken, and more crit = more threat and rage on your swipe spamming.

Kara is super easy now. You could probably tank that place nekkid. Well, maybe not :P, but its been SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed

Edit: you could probably go with something like this if you want to be a pure baretank: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceocIuAo I don't think OoC is worth picking up over Berzerk - that just looks like way too strong of a multi-target tanking tool.

Allahanastar
10-21-2008, 01:57 PM
Ok for tanking the key points you need to watch for are:

Armor rings -> find them, love them, live them. If a right has armor on it, you need it probably. (this is where we make up our extra armor)
Armor trinkets -> I'd farm or find the badge of tenacity. That thing is a god send.

Otherwise, the best option is to find your way into Kara and bust some heads. The first quest (for the rings) is worth its weight in gold as its pretty much a free armor ring.

Otherwise to make up the armor differences (and I really think you should aim for 15-18k armor) is to look at some of the honor based PVP gear. The starter PVP gear might be worth it too.... it might be better than the heavy clefthoof set now.