View Full Forums : DPS shred VS mangle


Goose
11-18-2008, 03:47 PM
hey i tried testing this out for myself but my guild depends heavily on me as a tank, so i don't get many kitty dps speced properly moments. So for DPSings is shred really better than magnle spam?

obviously shred hits harder especially with the bleed/mangle debuffs. but even with SA it still cost 8 more energy. Plus especially for trash pulls that are going down fast, the position requirement seems to lower dps. ( i know this point is a bit weak but it still takes an extra second or two with each new target.)

Also I'm on the fense about improved rend and tear. obviously for a shred build its a must have but still its not benefitting mangle which is a part of the rotation. I like naturalist and PI better. Of course thats also my tanking voice talking because my tanking build focuses on helping swipe which by far still our weakest moment (aoe tanking).

Claritondeus
11-18-2008, 07:23 PM
obviously shred hits harder especially with the bleed/mangle debuffs. but even with SA it still cost 8 more energy. Plus especially for trash pulls that are going down fast, the position requirement seems to lower dps. ( i know this point is a bit weak but it still takes an extra second or two with each new target.)

Just a quick comment on this - you will want to be melee dps'ing from behind anyway (even on trash), as you don't want to get your tank parry-thrashed. Granted, it probably wont matter at all (trashlol) but good habits :)

Solarflash
11-19-2008, 08:00 AM
Just a quick comment on this - you will want to be melee dps'ing from behind anyway (even on trash), as you don't want to get your tank parry-thrashed. Granted, it probably wont matter at all (trashlol) but good habits :)

Well I agree that attacking from behind is a good habit, I have to make the arguement that its not a practical expectation while leveling. Most mobs only have enough health to stack 3-4 combo points and then a finishing move. So there really is not time, nor need to stun and position behind the target.

Also in the mob heavy zones of Northrend, I have to fight on one side of a mob in order to prevent grabbing ads with area aggro.

I tend to stay away from shred as a solo DPS tactic. Its hands down the best group attack though.

Claritondeus
11-19-2008, 02:26 PM
Yeah for sure while solo'ing / group questing it doesn't matter as things die so quick. I thought he was talkin about fighting against elites that take a little longer to die (as he mentioned trash pulls, which typically refers to instancing).

My bad.

Oiysters
11-20-2008, 06:12 AM
I ignore shred completely and have no points in in SA. Rake is so good now there is little point to bothering with Shred unless you are a dps focused raiding cat.

Improved R & T is incredible for threat in bear and a ton of fun for soloing and the rare occasions I dps in a raid.

Solarflash
11-20-2008, 08:14 AM
The ironic thing is that I generate more dps/damage as a tank than I do as a kitty. Now, most of that is because I fail as kitty.

But the fact that kitty's have no multi-mob attacks really kills there damage output in a group.

When you think about it, as a bear I maul for ~ 1.5-2k now (woot for WotLK gear!) and it hits 2 targets every 2.5 sec (minus haste) = 3k damage / 2.5 sec = 1200 dps on multiple mobs. My typicall instance dps as bear sits around 850-950 DPS, but I am almost always over the top of one or more DPSers for total damage done, which IMHO is the only damage meter stat that counts(for DPSers). As Kitty, I am rarely over the tank for total damage done. I think there is just too much white damage time with being out of energy and not using finishing moves properly (my low skill).

as he mentioned trash pulls, which typically refers to instancing).
Not your bad, its mine. I didn't catch the trash pulls part. I still think you are better off with a quick Rake/Mangle/Mangle/FB. But as stated above, my kitty skill is...less than desirable, so I could be way off here.

My bad.

tlbj6142
11-20-2008, 10:29 AM
But the fact that kitty's have no multi-mob attacks really kills there damage output in a groupNot for long. We are going to get a kitty AoE attack soon. I can't find the blue post now, but they are going to give rogues an AoE attack and do the same for cats.

Though it might just be something lame like hurricane in cat form.

Solarflash
11-20-2008, 11:58 AM
[...]
Though it might just be something lame like hurricane in cat form.

I would be stoked to just get an attack that hit 3-4 mobs, but hurricane in kitty form would be acceptable. Not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth.

I currently have to jump into bear when there is a multi-mob pull in order to survive. Otherwise I am fresh out of energy by the time I start hitting mobs 2,3 etc.

skwidrific
11-20-2008, 04:20 PM
I would be stoked to just get an attack that hit 3-4 mobs, but hurricane in kitty form would be acceptable. Not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth.

I currently have to jump into bear when there is a multi-mob pull in order to survive. Otherwise I am fresh out of energy by the time I start hitting mobs 2,3 etc.

Do you have OoC or any points in King of the Jungle?

As soon as i dinged 71, i IMMEDIATELY out my point in OoC, and have been loving the increased damage since...

My strategy for taking on mutliple mobs has been to FB the first target to finish him off, then immediately pop Tiger's Fury for instant energy and yellow attacks on the second mob. Once the second mob goes down, i pop my bloodlust brooch, and i SHOULD have the AP bonus from my Silver Cross ticking at the same time by that point, so even with NO energy, we're still dishing out some disgusting, face-clawing pain via white damage :)

Goose
11-20-2008, 04:26 PM
i agree, bear out dps catform as well. And i'm wearing all agility gear for %dodge. however in RAIDS, people often ask me to kitty when less tanks are needed, especially b/c prot pally/war's can't dps for crap. good point on the behind the target thing. but still I feel the lower energy cost is better. For instance, i don't know my current shred crits well but between rend and tear its doing 1.5 times more damage than mangle. But it cost 30% more energy (8/34ish). However mangle also adds 30% more combo points. Also you have to figure the difference in rotations. if you spec for rend and tear, in a rotation rip mangle shred shred, finisher repeat). Only the shred is benefitting from R&T. versus if you speced for master shape shifter or other talents which benefit all attacks i think u'd see more dps. But idk!!! Has anyone tested both options? Btw my opposite rotation would be rip/mangle mangle mangle... savage roar being finisher of choice.


R&T seems more like a pvp thing to me. shred has better burst damage and ferocious bite is a better finisher in 10 second battles versus sustained raid battles.

Kheldar
11-21-2008, 03:44 AM
Do you have OoC or any points in King of the Jungle?

As soon as i dinged 71, i IMMEDIATELY out my point in OoC, and have been loving the increased damage since...

i'm trying to decide on OOC or more points in feral tree atm !

s3Rgio
11-21-2008, 05:35 AM
Shred > Mangle in DPS
Don't have the exact numbers but shred wins with an high amount over Mangle. And one thing most ppl forget is,
that shred gets out much more damage out of OoC than mangle does.

OOC @ lvl 71 for farming/questing; @80 a must-have

R&T 100% ability for DPS and TPS
I would rather skip "Thick Hide" or "Natural Reaction" than R&T.

For lvl 71 i would go for this: feral @ 71 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGMsfbd0eRzczAo0E0z)

"Brutal Impact" for +1 sec Pounce-Stun.
Lets you get through with Pounce->Mangle->Shred -> extra shred when OoC procs.

For the whole "mobs go down fast and easy if u are standing infront of them":
whats easy for you? For me it's easy if i go to the mob and burst him down with the 100 energy (and the energy i regen through my attacks) i have and not have to wait for extra energy to finish of or something. So lets say its 7-8 seconds for each mob.

Or am i lacking at damage? Cause with mangle-spam to 5 CPs + finisher it takes a lot longer for me.
I'm at 4300 AP currently and 37% crit. So i think im at a high-level for damage-output.

Kheldar
11-21-2008, 07:45 AM
certainly for sololing/ questing i dont feel the need to pounce and shred.

i feel it just slows me down for not a lot of difference in damage / mob speed of dying. unless there is a close grp of 2/3 then i will probably decide to stealth and attack the first.

my AP is not at your level S3R but i've about 36-38% crit and find i can get to 4/5 cp's and then rip quite fast. often i then move onto another mob whilst the first dies behind me !

not sure if we're talking about dps kitty with a kitty focussed build or tank one ? from the OP i felt kitty was a secondary spec as Goose was tank specced in the main ? as if so I doubt would want to lose Thick Hide or Natural Reaction....

i'm on the fence with R&T and have yet to use my 2 talent points from 71/72 as cannot decide if R&T or not !

Solarflash
11-21-2008, 08:01 AM
Do you have OoC or any points in King of the Jungle?


I have OoC and full points in KotJ, as well as T4 +energy bonus...still spend a great deal of time with those annoying red letters on my screen "Not enough Energy".

I am sure I need to tweak my cast order, but it typically takes me through my Tiger's Fury pop, to kill one target then I am am left with weak DPS for the rest of the multiple mobs. My AP is ~4k in kitty, and my crit is 34%+ (self-buffed).

Mob #1 gets, Rake, Mangle, Mangle, FB, Tigers Fury, Mangle (dead)

Mob #2 gets Rake, Mangle....white damage...

skwidrific
11-21-2008, 10:54 AM
ok... Im still running around in my PvP s2/s3/s4 gearz... AP is probably somewhere around 4k (i'll verify that tonight) and chance to crit is right about 52% (with the Grand Master Skinner bonus and Master Shapeshifter)...

you may want to finish with a Rip, and refresh your Rake instead of FB. That should allow you to store up a little energy for Mob #2. Granted, it's not as bursty as FB, but if you're not killing when you FB, it just seems like it's counter-productive...

as a side note, i dinged 72 last night, and put my point in Rend and Tear, and i can definitely see the difference with my rake... it's good times...

Goose
11-21-2008, 11:55 AM
just to lay it to rest, the original assumption was correct, I wanted this thread to be about raiding. not lvling against non elites. Heres my curreent build although once i hit 80 i'm prob gonna shift a couple points here or there. I know whats good for my bear, however my owngoing debate is how much i want my bear to be able to offhand dps in kittyform.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Akama&n=Heartcrusher

Also a note on KOTJ, with 2 points it tends to refil my energy back to 90-95%. So personally unless you're fully speced cat and don't care about yout talent points for bear form. 2 seems enough.

Goose
11-24-2008, 06:34 AM
okay i tested out both builds tonight, shred rotation def beats out mangle rake spam. my kitty gear isn't very good since i'm a bear primary, but the difference was 1.3k dps to 1.65k dps ish. Overall I was also really surprized at these numbers because the gear was absolute ****. we're talking atleast 3 greens. Based on this i might start playing a dps role more often.

Allahanastar
11-24-2008, 01:32 PM
Starting DPS in Naxx should be around 2k DPS. By the time you leave Naxx it should be closer to 4k.

Solarflash
11-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Starting DPS in Naxx should be around 2k DPS. By the time you leave Naxx it should be closer to 4k.


WOOT, my 72 frost mage is ready for Naxx!!!! Ok, so spamming blizzard and praying your tank holds aggro probably isn't going to win any friends in Naxx!!! Oh, and can you say Blizzard = OP? ::hopes he can snare the nerf hammer too::

Allahanastar
11-24-2008, 05:20 PM
2K DPS is an average. I seriously doubt that you'll be able to AOE constantly.

So expect you need to be averaging probably 2500 DPS on AOE fights and probably 1700 DPS on boss fights to start with your single targets etc.

Goose
11-25-2008, 05:07 AM
on boss fights tank and spank style i can avg 2.1k dps, its beautiful but anytime the battles are more involved or have to kill adds, this KILLS my dps. goes to 1400 or sometimes as low as 1k. I feel like the complexity of jugglying bleed/mangle debuffs for shred make druid dps inconvenient.

btw, what kind of AP do you guys have compared to dps, plz specify bossfights or overall isntance

Solarflash
11-25-2008, 07:51 AM
After Ding'ing 75, my unbuffed AP in kitty was ~4100. My crit is only ~36%-37% according to the tool tip (so without talents) Recount puts my actual crits between 42%-55% on most boss encounters. I average between 1k - 1.1k in most instances with 1.5k-1.7k on single target tank & spanks (the final boss in VH)

Typical boss rotation is Ravage, Mangle, Rake, Mangle/Rip...Tiger's Fury, Rake, Shred, Mangle, Mangle/Ravage

I am still toying with Ravage and not sure its really all that great. It is awesome for the end of my energy move after Tiger's fury was used becase there is that time while energy is regening/CP's are maxed and your Rip doesn't need to be refreshed yet. I have only seen minimal increases in my DPS using Ravage.

(A disclaimer I should add to all Kitty related posts: I am bear first, Kitty second. I spec for a mix of both. So my DPS/DPS knowledge is surely less than most others on this sight)

tlbj6142
11-25-2008, 09:26 AM
Typical boss rotation is Ravage, Mangle, Rake, Mangle/Rip...Tiger's Fury, Rake, Shred, Mangle, Mangle/RavageWhere is Savage Roar? That should be your first finisher.


Keep SR up at ALL times
Keep Rake up (highest DPE)
Keep Rip up
Keep Mangle bleed up
Shred if you have nothing else to do
Use TF when you have less than 40E
Use TF before Berserk
When berserk is up just shred
Use FB as a finisher if you have plenty of time to left on Rip and SR


IOW, cat DPS is really tough now. I hope someone creates nice addon to make following all of that much easier.

Solarflash
11-25-2008, 10:05 AM
/cry I always forget to Beserk and SR seems to get lost on my bar since I am not used to it yet....bad kitty.

Allahanastar
11-25-2008, 01:55 PM
Our DPS rotation is extremely complex compared with a lot of other classes. I'll be interested to see what plays out as the best of breed rotation once all things are ironed out by EJ

tlbj6142
11-25-2008, 03:34 PM
Our DPS rotation is extremely complex compared with a lot of other classes.I read that there is a rogue addon that helps them with their odd rotation. It almost tells you what to do next based on cooldowns, current energy, mob debuffs, etc. Seems like if we had something similar we could really crank out the dps. Though maybe that is all part of blizzard's plan. Let's give cats the ability to do huge dps only if they really know what they are doing, otherwise the rogues will QQ too much.

Allahanastar
11-25-2008, 03:46 PM
If you out DPS a rogue... even if he sucks he'll QQ.

tlbj6142
11-25-2008, 04:21 PM
from what I understand, the current implementation is such that we can out dps rogues (on paper). But it is so hard to do in-game.

I even think GW had a post about it some time back....

Goose
11-28-2008, 03:23 AM
Played around with kitty some more, Shred rotation is def better than mangle spam. Also get the badge idol (208) shred. This is cruicial. In a heroic fight (treehugger (nexus) i pulled 2.7 k dps for the whole fight, other than trinket and idol i was in all blues. unenchanted. However the bad thing is because of sterotypes i don't expect to see any raid's fighting for my kitty dps. Every other ingame feral i've seen in heroics is pulling like 1.1k dps when most of the other classes are usually 1.7 in my groups. Unfortunately i think maybe 5 druids on my server actually understand their class, and i mention this because i'm bitter that their reputation will probably hurt my druid's.

tlbj6142
11-28-2008, 02:46 PM
Unfortunately i think maybe 5 druids on my server actually understand their class, and i mention this because i'm bitter that their reputation will probably hurt my druid's.This will be an issue for those that want to kitty dps. Doing well currently requires significant amount of skill compared to the old rotation (that was stupid easy, yet many druids still couldn't figure it out). Though I honestly doubt too many druids will spec pure kitty dps. Those that do and know what they are doing will face a significant wall of bias.

Which means most will think of kitty as primarily a solo spec with some usefulness as an off-tank.

Oiysters
12-01-2008, 02:03 PM
I am stunned at how high my kitty dps is. my armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kel%27Thuzad&n=Oiysters)

In that spec and gear (I change rings and trinkets only when I go cat, don't have alternatives for other slots yet) I've hit 2k on single targets w/o Shred. I wasn't on top of the meters or anything, but that's respectable, especially since I mostly fail at being a cat. I've never played a melee dps toon seriously, only tanked or played a caster.

s3Rgio
12-02-2008, 03:43 AM
this can go up till 2.5k on single-targets (bosses).
just needs a bit of practice.

i did about 2.7k on a boss in naxx (kitty-specced, not tanking)
and it was a blast to start Savage Fury and see 12.5k AP
on your char-window :-D
my white crits where at 1400-1600 Oo

Kheldar
12-02-2008, 03:54 AM
lol 12.5k AP !

shows how bad my gear etc is compared to you raiders !

s3Rgio
12-02-2008, 05:53 AM
for comparison:
my stats unbuffed are:
5600 AP
94 Hit (not so easy to get without loosing much crit, but some items will come)
38% crit

for caster-shape-stats just look my armory.

Goose
12-02-2008, 05:55 AM
lol 12.5k AP !

shows how bad my gear etc is compared to you raiders !

thats with SR up. and raid buffed. While this is definately respectable, its not that unobtainable. VH staff gives over 2k AP. just by itself. Good gear you're getting maybe 200-300 AP per item?? AP+agility+gems+enchants. SR +double debuffed shred is way to go though. I trained a guildie in this compared to his old mangle spam technique, his dps went up 33% same gear (900dps too 1250s).

I definately see alot of potential hear, but at the same time I'm pushing my dps guildies towards boomkin so they won't get as confused.

Kheldar
12-02-2008, 07:32 AM
its probably unobtainable for me given i dont raid !

maybe once i am 80 and start to run heroics for loot / badges and maybe some rep rewards i will be able to increase mine !

s3Rgio
12-02-2008, 08:38 AM
its probably unobtainable for me given i dont raid !


These numbers are without any Naxx-Gear.
I just got my 2 T7 pieces and my damage-shoulders yesterday.

But u can equip yourself sooooo nice with heroic-items and
badge-rewards (BTW. dont even have a badge item except the T7 gloves from yesterday)
And there would be so much more potential out of heroics.
So dont worry. Your numbers will shine too :devil:

Kheldar
12-03-2008, 03:52 AM
yeah i should be able to improve once i hit 80, although time will limit me for running heroics this time compared to the number i ran for the past 6+months in BC.

i felt i was well kitted out for my commitment with all the nice feral tank badge items.

i'm hoping that with Wrath there are going to be a better selection of BoE epics for me to craft or buy which will help me out given i dont raid.

krankimkopf
12-08-2008, 10:24 AM
Hmm is there already something calculated for the exact needed hit rating @ lvl 80 for raidsbosses aka pve? or still around 140 hit rating?

Allahanastar
12-08-2008, 02:41 PM
It looks like our new hit cap is 295 which really sucks as blue rogue gear is SADLY lacking in Hit a lot of the time. Which shocks the hell out of me.

Kheldar
12-09-2008, 03:03 AM
wow 295 ! mine is sadly sadly lacking.

luckily i only kitty for solo levelling so i dont find it to bad although perhaps i would if i studied stats on myself from recount for misses !

i'm hoping to get more bear gear in Wrath that has hit as i did notice a lack of +hit was not helping me in TBC heroics.

so i hope they have given us hit on some items !

krankimkopf
12-09-2008, 06:22 AM
It looks like our new hit cap is 295 which really sucks as blue rogue gear is SADLY lacking in Hit a lot of the time. Which shocks the hell out of me.

Sad but true it seems.. O.o
http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit our hit rating / % need has more then doubled.. *autsj*. Well explains why my dps on > 80 mobs seems so low compared to <= 80 mobs.

tlbj6142
12-09-2008, 09:55 AM
Here's some help with pre-Naxx hit (and exp) rating...

http://www.unbearably.net/2008/12/09/i-want-you-to-hit-me-as-hard-as-you-can-part-ii/

Vika
12-09-2008, 05:27 PM
I've been playing around a lot with rotations in PvE (not raid encounters) and definitely find Shred to be the sauce. You NEED Brutal Impact for the extra second.

Pounce > FF > Shred > TF (unless OoC) > Shred

At this point you have 4-5 CP's. A +50% FB pretty much says good night. The target is bleeding for 18 seconds every time you pounce and I don't know trash that lives for 18 seconds. Obviously for Boss fights, following TLBJ's rotation is spot on.

But uh...yeah. Shred FTW!

Side note on Brutal Impact: This is an invaluable skill for the "Druid Stun Lock" LOL

Pounce > Mangle > Rake > Bear Form* > Bash* > Cat Form* > Shred > Maim > TF > Shred > Shred > Tauren Stomp* > Cat* > Shred > FB

*Requires 5/5 Furor, 2/2 Brutal Impact and Tauren for bonus.

Very little will be feeling well after this and in PVP it really frustrates healers who aren't use to having Druids stun lock them. The last shred can be a cyclone if you are alone and not a Tauren allowing you to Stealth > Pounce again right as it breaks if you are quick. From very early on, this was my favorite part of being a Feral Druid and I have killed many Pally's, Priests, Resto Druids, and Resto Shammy's this way, though the last two are often moot if you don't have secondary DPS.

s3Rgio
12-11-2008, 08:06 AM
wow 295 ! mine is sadly sadly lacking.

luckily i only kitty for solo levelling so i dont find it to bad although perhaps i would if i studied stats on myself from recount for misses !

i'm hoping to get more bear gear in Wrath that has hit as i did notice a lack of +hit was not helping me in TBC heroics.

so i hope they have given us hit on some items !

on bear-gear, which is for tanking, hit comes in Naxx, but sadly not before... i lack a massive amount of hit in my bear-gear.

In cat-gear i managed to go up to about 220 hit with almost only heroic-drops.
the boots from wyrmrest exalted are nice for hit and also
the legs from heroic gundrak are a must-have.

It pains me a little, that there is no hit on even one T7 item :cry:

Kheldar
12-11-2008, 08:15 AM
a while ago my kitty gear hit 140. but then i started using some of the merciless pvp set so it dopped way back again.

i'd like more hit for both kitty levelling gear and bear tanking but i was not holding my breath that i will be getting it from crafted or badge items...and you seem to make that clear S3R that i would need to do Naax !

s3Rgio
12-11-2008, 08:52 AM
...and you seem to make that clear S3R that i would need to do Naax !

yep.
In Blizzards opinion Naxx is for the casual-player now.
People not even going into Naxx aren't really on their mind i think.

Allahanastar
12-11-2008, 09:21 AM
I would not be shocked to see regular PUGs of Naxx clearing the place. From everything I've heard its really a casual dungeon and not at all like Kara. Kara was pretty easy once you knew what you were doing, but there were some pretty sever walls in there that just hurt raiding overall.

Kheldar
12-11-2008, 09:48 AM
yep.
In Blizzards opinion Naxx is for the casual-player now.
People not even going into Naxx aren't really on their mind i think.
zomg !

u mean Blizz do not have me on their mind when implement changes to Wow and Druids especially !! :eek: :elfgrin:

Oiysters
12-11-2008, 03:41 PM
I'm 3/4 t7.10 now, and each piece has been a side grade at best. I am not a stam-stacker tho.

I am however a set geek, and the t7 gear looks way better than the heroic/crafted stuff.