View Full Forums : question about dodge for bear


windsaber/windriss
01-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Question about dodge,

My guild recently asked what is a good dodge percent for feral tank druids to shoot for?

They think 35% or more in Naxx 25-person unbuffed.
Can you get 35% or more without loosing health?

I find right now if I want to raise my dodge more I would have to loose health (stam gems, enchants....)

Thanks
Windsaber

Oiysters
01-23-2009, 11:57 PM
Can you get 35% or more without loosing health?
No, but it doesn't matter. You only need 30k health raid buffed to tank Naxx 25, which is easily surpassed without a single stam gem or enchant. Fill every gem or enchant slot with agility or defense. You get armor, avoidance, crit, dps and tps. You become very easy to heal because you take far less damage than a stam-stacking tank. Also, you will still have more health than any similarly geared warrior, dk or pally tank.

I have taken anywhere from 6k to 10k less damage on average than any of my co-hateful tanks on Patchwerk in Naxx 25 that were stam-stackers.

The math behind druid tanking with patch 3.0. In TBC stam stacking was good once you were armor capped. In WotLK stam stacking is bad because you are just a giant mana sponge taking far more damage than necessary that just takes extra mana to heal.

Stacking stam is completely pointless and a waste of stats for a druid tank for every fight in the game except Sartharion with drakes up.

Stack mitigation and avoidance, your healers will thank you. And your dodge will be well above 35%.

Kheldar
01-24-2009, 06:11 AM
30k HP buffed up for heroics to or less ?

Oiysters
01-24-2009, 06:10 PM
30k HP buffed up for heroics to or less ?
Less. The thing is that stam is so abundant on gear that it will take you no time at all to get to 30k health buffed even in heroic/crafted gear. I raid buff to 39k + and I gem and enchant exclusively for mitigation and avoidance. It's far more than I need for anything except Sarth with drakes. And my healers are happy because I take so much less mana to heal.

I have the Alchemy trinket and am hoping for the stam trinket to drop out of AN for when we try the 25 man version of Sarth with drakes up. If that's not enough I'll regem and enchant for the attempts.

The only problem I run into right now is that so many people think hit points are the best measure of the quality of a tank's gear, they assume my gear is much worse than it is unless they armory me. The healers are always pleasantly surprised though.

tlbj6142
01-24-2009, 07:13 PM
30k HP buffed up for heroics to or less ?I did hUK with ~20K health and ~30% dodge.

Cuba Apricot
01-25-2009, 08:14 AM
Id take 4-5% dodge over 3k hp any day :P

Goose
01-25-2009, 10:02 AM
eventually i recommend your druid tanks getting both a stam set AND an avoidance set. my to give you some stats for the sake of **relative comparison. my bear's avoidance set is 34Khp, 39% dodge unbuffed. stam set is 44khp, 31% dodge unbuffed. Both are good for different situations, sarth 3Drakesup being the most obvious however also Maexenna which imo is the hardest current fight for a druid tank. (webb takes ur dodge down to 0% and stuns your healers for a couple seconds. Patchwork i think ur dodge set is gonna be more helpful, although more vulernable to unlucky sprees.

gemming defense? my comment on this is since patch 3.0.3 i have never seen a druid gem defense. ElitestJerks.com says the only time you'd use defense is on a green gem for a socket bonus.

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t38642-druid_gem_compilation/

To finish with some theory crafting: 39%dodge with 34khp gives an effect health pool of 47.2khp, 31% dodge with 44khp gives an effective health pool of 57.6. Higher health pools gain more of what would otherwise be "overhealing" also higher health pulls can handle boss spells better that are "undodgable." Main tanks is current raid material also very rarely die of of healers going oom, but rather spike damage.

I'm not throwing dodge stacking out the window though, however i've been theorizing that 43% is the highest i would go unbuffed. This is based off something i read that said 50% dodge is some sort of landmark for dimenishing returns on dodge. so I'd say leave the last 7 percent dodge for raid buff dodge, food dodge, elixer dodge, trinket etc. 50% isn't the cap for dodge so its not useless after that, but if agility and stamina were comparable before, then agility is less advantageous than it was at lower amounts, and stamina starts to take the lead.

windsaber-- 35-36% dodge seems like an acceptable amount for 25 content, hope for a lil more, but i've seen it done with a lil less. honestly i think gem wise, you''re fine to gem for agility or stamina. If you need more dodge, try and get it threw gear/ trinkets, or getting additional enchants if you don't have everything enchanted yet (get that sons of hodir to exalted..)

Oiysters
01-25-2009, 06:22 PM
Mostly agree with what Goose has to say, but I'd like to point out a couple things, and expand on a couple others:

Druids are not avoidance tanks since patch 3.0. Death Knights are now the avoidance tank, and we are mitigation tanks. We have the lowest overall avoidance of all the tanking classes, and the best potential to mitigate damage.

The choice is not stam vs. dodge. The choice is stam vs. dodge+mitigation(armor)+dps+tps.

I did not quote my attacks dodged vs. a stam stacking tank's dodge. I quoted my average hit taken vs. a stam stacking tank's average hit taken. A stam stacking tank takes a lot more damage that must be healed.

The idea that a stam stacking tank is just utilizing mana that would otherwise go to overhealing is simply wrong. Randomly select any sample of WWS reports you like and the overhealing on the tank will hover around 30% regardless of the health pool of the tank. The stam stacking tank will just consume more mana to achieve the same level of overhealing, assuming the mana is available to produce that much healing output.

I wasn't clear in my first post in this thread; I didn't mean to recommend gemming for defense as a druid. I did mean that a defense + dodge enchant to your helm is more helpful than a stam + resilience enchant.

I never die from spike damage. I have enough health to absorb the largest potential hit I could take plus a little extra. That's where the 30k health for 25 man Naxx comes from. The largest potential hit comes from Hateful Strikes from Patchwerk, which is 30k. The stam stackers I've run with have all taken 30k hits. I've never taken one larger than 25k, and now I never take one larger than 20k. Tanks on EJ are where I got the gear strategy to stop stacking health at the point where I had enough to take the largest potential hit. My experience says they are right, so I am an enthusiastic endorser of the strat.

The Blizzard devs (Ghostcrawler in particular) have repeatedly posted that stacking effective health to infinity will be a fail gearing strategy for tanks once Ulduar comes out. Tank dps will matter to the success of the raid. Healer mana will be a much scarcer resource, so tanks taking less damage will matter. Managing threat will be an issue again. Stacking stam doesn't help with any of this. Stacking agility helps with all of it.

Even my putting together a stam set for Sarth with drakes is just an extension of the same strat. I'll end up with enough health to survive plus a little extra, and keep as much mitigation and avoidance as I can to minimize the strain on my healer to keep me up. Minimizing my incoming damage frees up healing resources to take care of the rest of the raid, or even to do some dps. Either option is better for the raid than spending mana healing unnecessary incoming damage on the tank.

Goose
01-26-2009, 12:57 AM
oiysters- i'm curious how your guild is doing in sarth? my guild does 2 drakes, we're still working on 3 drakes

Rorgg
01-26-2009, 01:22 AM
And here's something to consider -- with just paws on, I now top 30k HP in bear form, and I avoid STA in favor of avoidance/mitigation in basically* every case possible, and all my tank gear is available without raiding.

*I do have the LW +90 STA bracer emboss, as well as the JC +24 STA ring enchants, since they're so much better than the alternatives, but I don't even have the Gossamer Essence, so my total should be pretty equivalent.

Oiysters
01-26-2009, 02:24 AM
oiysters- i'm curious how your guild is doing in sarth? my guild does 2 drakes, we're still working on 3 drakes
On our first attempt on one drake up (10 man) we went in with two healers and without our best dps and failed at 35%. We're scheduled to go in again on Saturday with three healers and our best dps to try again. Planning on starting with two drakes and if we're not even close we'll go back to one drake up.

I made the Alch trinket for the fight and I've gotten shut out so far on the Essence of Gossamer, makes me sad.:lmao:

Solarflash
01-26-2009, 09:12 AM
Well, I don't entirely disagree with you Oiys on the agi vs stam gemming/enchanting, but I think you may be going too far on the agi side. (a good mix is always best)

One thing everyone fails to notice is that a driud can inflate EH much higher than other tank with similar gemming. I have both a "Stam" set and a "Mitigation" set for my bear.

My mitigation set is T7/7.5 stuff with all agi gems. My stam set is Polar with a mix of stam and agi (socket depending, 3 agi gems equipped atm in polar set).

The restult, mitigation set, raid buffed, is about 5.5% more dodge, ~3.5k armor, and then some offensive stats, that just don't matter. (shifted and buffed)
(I know GC has said offensive stats will matter....but lets face it, Blizz is full of empty promises these days. I will re-gem when its actually an issue, not when its threatened to one day be an issue)

Oh, I forgot to mention, my stam set has ~12.5k more HP raid buffed. I think you said it yourself, Druids are NOT avoidance tanks any more. Stam > Agi in my opinion. In all cases, a mix of both is best, but gems/enchants account for ~150-200 agi in my best guess (could be off) That is 400 armor, ~3-4% dodge at the cost of well north of 10k health.

I don't think one way is better than the other. Your healers heal style will play a large part in how you want to gear.

I don't believe Bears have the "Best" mitigation either. Maybe as far as base stats go, we do. But lack of abilities like "Block/Parry" and shield wall, leave much to be desired.

Rorgg
01-27-2009, 12:57 AM
Well, I don't entirely disagree with you Oiys on the agi vs stam gemming/enchanting, but I think you may be going too far on the agi side. (a good mix is always best)

Not really. Health is (on a per-fight basis) very strongly softcapped. Either you have enough HP, or you don't. And it's really, really hard to not pick up a lot of STA on our gear, because it's the one thing the rogue leather and the plate-tank jewelry have in common.

There are a couple places where you'll use STA just because the available item is head-and-shoulders better than the avoidance/mitigation alternative -- Essence of Gossamer fits that for a lot of tanks right now, the STA emboss for leatherworkers, the STA ring enchants for enchanters, etc.

And if you just take those minimal concessions, you can go hog-wild avoiding STA everywhere else possible for avoidance/mitigation and still end up with plenty of HP for anything save a couple very specific fights.

s3Rgio
01-27-2009, 01:45 AM
Tanks will always go for max. STAM.
And Druids will have no problem with agro, when going full STAM.
Cause we kickass warriors in a aggro race by far.
And about the mitigation of gear.
The difference if i go all mitigation is maybe 2% dodge and 1.5k armor.

Compare:
4-5k life in bear or 2% dodge and 1.5k armor

In my guild every healer has currently about 50% overheal.
So i dont care if i get hit for 6k instead of 5.5k.

And this will be the same case in future instances.
Maybe warries, pallies need to go for aggro-buffing-gems.
But druids dont need them.

Oiysters
01-27-2009, 01:49 AM
Health is (on a per-fight basis) very strongly softcapped. Either you have enough HP, or you don't.
That's the crux of the debate. What purpose is served by having more than enough (defined as being able to take the largest possible hit plus a small safety margin) health?

Having thought about it a bit, I can think of two situations where having more health than I defined above might be worth a shot, feel free to post with more. :behindcom

1. Your healer(s) only cast big heals with long cast times, creating a need to be able, for example, to take two Hateful Strikes from Patchwerk.
2. Your healers are new/bad/inexperienced/undergeared, and you want a larger safety margin to attempt to insure your survival.

And Solar, my stam set is exactly what you described. The Polar gear works for Sarth because with the exception of the Breath, he doesn't hit very hard so physical mitigation is pretty meaningless.

Oiysters
01-27-2009, 02:03 AM
Tanks will always go for max. STAM.
And Druids will have no problem with agro, when going full STAM.
Cause we kickass warriors in a aggro race by far.
And about the mitigation of gear.
The difference if i go all mitigation is maybe 2% dodge and 1.5k armor.

Compare:
4-5k life in bear or 2% dodge and 1.5k armor

In my guild every healer has currently about 50% overheal.
So i dont care if i get hit for 6k instead of 5.5k.

And this will be the same case in future instances.
Maybe warries, pallies need to go for aggro-buffing-gems.
But druids dont need them.
Me love you long time, S3rge. But you're wrong on this one. And it doesn't apply to your situation anyway.:physics:

If your guild is as geared as you are, you overgear everything in the game by a large margin. My posts are aimed at progression raiders where 2% extra avoidance and 1.5k armor's worth of extra mitigation will make a difference. Also, the avoidance and mitigation gains of a guy just starting to go into Heroic Naxx will mean much more to him. Remember once you are heroic 5 man geared WoW is a game of small incremental improvements that slowly add up to large incremental improvement that allows you to progress to the next level. Not noticeable to a guy and his guild that are among the best geared in the game, but very noticable to a guy in heroic blues or 10 man Naxx gear trying to get ready for the next level of raiding.

s3Rgio
01-27-2009, 04:49 AM
The Blizzard devs (Ghostcrawler in particular) have repeatedly posted that stacking effective health to infinity will be a fail gearing strategy for tanks once Ulduar comes out. Tank dps will matter to the success of the raid. Healer mana will be a much scarcer resource, so tanks taking less damage will matter. Managing threat will be an issue again. Stacking stam doesn't help with any of this. Stacking agility helps with all of it.


I just replied to this. :o
I dont think blizzard can make it happen, that healers need to watch extremly on their mana.
The only thing they can do to make the mana suffer,
are longer hard-hitting fights with perma-healing needed (like Patchwerk) or extrem AOE-encounters.
The 1st would be boring and the 2nd would require mass AOE-healing classes which goes against blizzards policy -> that u dont need to make class-heavy raids.
And for the mitigation part (talking about 25mans):
2-4% damage up or down. u wont even notice.
And its easier to stack more hp than u would mitigate through agility or dodge.


@Oiysters
As for starters in heroics u are absolutely right. :grin:

Solarflash
01-27-2009, 08:25 AM
In the end, with a soft crit cap built in, its easy for us bears to carry both sets of gear and try them out.

I have to agree with S3rg though. +Stam = win atm. My #1 Job whenever I step into a raid is to make the healer's job as easy as possible. So, yes, you could succeed with 30k health, but that would be stressful on your healers, and there is no need. Druids have the means to hit 40k and even 50k+ HP without significantly sacrificing other mitigation.

I fall back on the druid mechanics vs current boss encounters time and time again. Boss hit melee hard, they hit with spell/poison/debuff much much harder. Druids have no non-melee mititgation besides uber EH. I have both a full mitigation set and a full stam set, and I have never regreted leaving my stam set on for a boss fight. I have definatley regreted forgeting to put my stam set on for a boss fight. (ex. Maexxena, 38%dgd 43k HP < 35%dgd 52k HP)

s3Rgio
01-27-2009, 08:57 AM
I have definatley regreted forgeting to put my stam set on for a boss fight. (ex. Maexxena, 38%dgd 43k HP < 35%dgd 52k HP)

52k HP !!!!

Plz tell me this is with your polar-set on!
Or am i that bad on HP-side?

Solarflash
01-27-2009, 09:44 AM
52k HP !!!!

Plz tell me this is with your polar-set on!
Or am i that bad on HP-side?

Yep, Polar Set with Agi / Stam Gems. I only have T7 gear to replace it, so its actually much better gear. I lose some offensive stats, but not enough to really matter.

Also, I am a JC so I have 3x 41 stam gems + Monarch Crab.

Oiysters
01-27-2009, 10:25 PM
So, yes, you could succeed with 30k health, but that would be stressful on your healers, and there is no need.
This is the linchpin of the stam-stacking argument, and I admit I don't understand it. Based on my experience the opposite is true.

I started raiding as a healer, and healed all of t4 and t5 before switching to feral. As a healer, a 40k health tank dropping to 10k is far more stressful than a 30k tank dropping to 10k. Healing a 20k health deficit is far easier than healing a 30k health deficit. 30k damage spikes are far more stressful than 20k damage spikes.

Your argument makes sense if you assume a 40k tank will drop to 10k and a 30k tank will drop to 0, but that is simply not the case assuming equivalent gear with a different gemming/enchanting strat.

Oiysters
01-27-2009, 10:36 PM
I dont think blizzard can make it happen, that healers need to watch extremly on their mana.
The only thing they can do to make the mana suffer,
are longer hard-hitting fights with perma-healing needed (like Patchwerk) or extrem AOE-encounters.
The 1st would be boring and the 2nd would require mass AOE-healing classes which goes against blizzards policy -> that u dont need to make class-heavy raids.
I'm not sure I agree here S3rge, and I hope you are wrong. If you are right I'll have to change main specs because tanking is getting boring because it is too easy.

And for the mitigation part (talking about 25mans):
2-4% damage up or down. u wont even notice.
I could always tell as a healer. 4% more damage taken = 4% more mana required and 4% more casts to make and 4% less raid or party healing I could do. I also want to point out that in my Patchwerk experience the difference in max hits and average hits was not 4% but 40%. I'll make a WWS on my next Naxx 25 run and post it.
If it was only a 4% difference it wouldn't be worth so many posts.:alc:

And its easier to stack more hp than u would mitigate through agility or dodge.

Easier yes. More useful? I still argue no.:evilgrin:

s3Rgio
01-28-2009, 01:23 AM
@Oiysters
I just speak from my experience when im tanking.
As said before: Our healers have each about 50-60% overheal (6-7 healers in naxx25). So im from 10k to 40k in about 2secs.
Thats about the same time im from 10k to 30k. ^^
Cause 1-2 heals always go into overheal.

If u assign healing-targets and the healers only heal those targets maybe u are right.

Kheldar
01-28-2009, 03:59 AM
do people not assign healers anymore then these days ? is it more of a case of free for all healing in raids these days ?

my healing days in raids are back in the 40 mans when we were always assigned to heal 'something' or 'some group' rather than just throw heals to anyone.

s3Rgio
01-28-2009, 06:17 AM
do people not assign healers anymore then these days ? is it more of a case of free for all healing in raids these days ?

my healing days in raids are back in the 40 mans when we were always assigned to heal 'something' or 'some group' rather than just throw heals to anyone.

Sure there are bosses when healing needs to be assigned.
- Patchwerk
- Kel (for the melee-camps)
- 4 HM
- Sarth + 2-3
- Thaddius for the 1st-Phase (Raid is in 2 camps)
- 2 healers always assigned on MT in the other fights
- Maexxna (WebTrap-Healer)

But 4-5 healers are free to "heal where needed".

There is so much heal-potential currently, that i have never seen a problem at a healing point of view.

Solarflash
01-28-2009, 08:39 AM
I have tried both builds on patchwerk in naxx 10, and I wish I could just post the WWS links...but guild policy is that those are to be kept confidential within guild.

Basically Agi - Encounter (or mitigation based) T7 gear with Agi gems, I sat at about 36.5k HP, and was missed 46.9% of the time. The average incoming hit was ~6k. I was soaking hatefuls.

Stam-Encounter: I was in the same gear as previous except the 3 pieces of polar gear with stam gems (2 agi gems too). I at 47.9k HP, was missed 42.5% and the average incoming hit was still around ~6k. Also, soaking hatefuls.

The stam encounter I never dropped below 35% health (I have a mod that procs when I do and I pop my "last stand" macro which procs all my CD's) In the Agi encounter I was regularily below 35% health. The Agi encounter resulted in ~48% overheals on me, vs the stam encounter I was overhealed 26%. So the amont of overhealing was significantly different, but for all I know, mana used was the same.

Overall dmg in for me: Agi encounter 635k, Stam Encounter 750k.

Now we did have slighty different healers for each encounter. Same build, just different people playing their Resto druid. Both though, are amazing healers.

In Naxx-25, I have only used the Stam set, because patchwerk is still rocking us pretty hard in 25 man.

windsaber/windriss
01-28-2009, 09:33 AM
Ran Naxx 25 last night, with all raid buffs I was at around 41 to 43k health and 39.xx% dodge.

For people interested there is a BOE legs that have over 100 stam and xx agil and fair armor.

Called Chain gang leggerds or something, but I bought it on AH for 54gd, I was stunned at how cheap it was. My server is one of the costly AH's (Malygos).

Also what helped a great staff from 25 naxx with 100 agil, 150 stam and 2085 ap and something else on it.

Oiysters
01-29-2009, 12:42 AM
Overall dmg in for me: Agi encounter 635k, Stam Encounter 750k.
Those are the magic numbers to me. You took 18% more damage while taking 10% more hits in the stam set than you did in the mitigation set. So roughly half the extra damage came from the lower avoidance on your stam set and the other half came from the lower mitigation. I agree that your healers probably used close to the same mana on both fights.

That's the point I've been making in this thread. In a progression situation you can see how the tank taking all that extra damage puts unnecessary strain on the healing corps and can cause extra, unnecessary wipes.

If you're like S3rgio however and are absolutely swimming in healing, this discussion is definitely nothing more than an academic exercise.

I get the same low heath warning you do (I think it's DBM), and I have the same "last stand" macro set up you do. On Patch I don't pay much attention to it because usually healers are casting long cast time big heals and I go from low to full in a heartbeat. That only happens to me on 25 man though, never on 10 man. Not sure why you would be getting that on 10 man with 36K+ health?

BTW, grats Windsaber!

Solarflash
01-29-2009, 08:10 AM
Those are the magic numbers to me. You took 18% more damage while taking 10% more hits in the stam set than you did in the mitigation set. So roughly half the extra damage came from the lower avoidance on your stam set and the other half came from the lower mitigation. I agree that your healers probably used close to the same mana on both fights.

That's the point I've been making in this thread. In a progression situation you can see how the tank taking all that extra damage puts unnecessary strain on the healing corps and can cause extra, unnecessary wipes.


Wow, and I look at the same numbers and see...the same strain on my healers. They are clicking the same buttons, using the same mana, except in my stam set, non of them are poo'ing themselves or blasting un-needed cooldowns because the tank is <35% health.

In my avoidance gear, I am usually 1 or 2 untimely smacks away from a dirt nap! While in my stam set, each hit is a bit harder, but I always have a 2+ hit cusion (usually closer to 4-5 hit cushion) So when a healer lags, or "b-rez's" or any other function besides heal me, its no big deal.

I think I just like the built in buffer.

Solarflash
01-29-2009, 10:34 AM
Not sure if this helps or hurts my case, but I presented the question to our healers and below is the response from a very, very good healer in my guild. We were discussing if I should go Boomkin full time and have a DK tank step in for 10-man. This would increase our DPS, but we are also hoping to go to 2 healers soon. We full cleared in about 3.5 hours last night with 3 healers. So it should be a slaughter with an additional DPS.

Druid Tanks are and most likely always will be mana sponges.You can ask any healer and a majority will tell you Druid tanks make you go OOM.Its the nature of the beast.It takes alot of mana to get a Bear tank to full.If you want to know who is better to heal between Frost Dk and Bear I would say Bear from a healing point of view .Frost Dk seem to get alot of spike damage,Even with all hots on, the HP still dances back and forth.With a Bear Tank it still dances a little but well within control.I may spend alot more mana keeping Solar up but at the same time I have more time to heal others just for the simple reason that he has alot more HP so he can take a few hits while I cast hots on others. Not sure if this was the feedback you guys wanted but i tried,most of the time I have it in my head what I want to say but comes out different.

Oiysters
01-29-2009, 06:16 PM
Wow, and I look at the same numbers and see...the same strain on my healers. They are clicking the same buttons, using the same mana, except in my stam set, non of them are poo'ing themselves or blasting un-needed cooldowns because the tank is <35% health.

In my avoidance gear, I am usually 1 or 2 untimely smacks away from a dirt nap! While in my stam set, each hit is a bit harder, but I always have a 2+ hit cusion (usually closer to 4-5 hit cushion) So when a healer lags, or "b-rez's" or any other function besides heal me, its no big deal.

I think I just like the built in buffer.

And I like when my healers are bored because I don't take enough damage to stress them out.;)

I think we've proved that if you have healers that are capable of far more healing output than you have damage incoming, it doesn't matter if you go the mitigation route or the stam route. We've also proved that the "best" gearing strategy for a bear tank is the one that makes the healers happy so they perform their best.:dance:

My bias is still for the mitigation strategy. With it we were able to go to a two healer setup for 10 man pretty darn quick because we didn't need as much healing throughput to make that jump. After all this debate with you though, I definitely understand why a lot of people favor that strategy and I'll be keeping a stam set in my bags from now on for certain fights and for pugs that judge a tank by his hit points.:texla:

Great debate Solar, thanks for having it with me.

s3Rgio
01-30-2009, 03:01 AM
I have one more addition to this discussion:
When i say i go for max HP-Sets i definitaly DONT mean putting my Polar-Set on!!!!!!!!
HP-Set is for me T7 - T7.5 all HP-socketed enchanted.
I would NEVER EVER trade 90 AGI + 60 Crit-Rating + 40 Expertise
for 70-80 STAM. (Polar compared with T7.5-Chest)
This destroys your Aggro-Generation and your Damage-Output as a Tank. (Dont underestimate 2k-2.5k DPS from a Tank in an encounter!!!)

-------------------------------------------------------------
For Example Malygos 25er with 1 Tank:
I was choosen for tank for several reasons:
- He hits pretty hard and his Arcane Breath goes often in for 20-25k damage. So mass HP needed to give healers the room they need to heal you and the raid. (im currently at 47k HP raidbuffed)

- In this encounter Aggro is the key to successfully down him, cause you need to be fast. Why? U are nearly unable to make aggro in the Vortex-Phases (except fearie-fire and Demo Roar, but u need every extra aggro u can get). Casters keep on rolling DoTs and putting instance-casts out.
And what makes it even more difficult, the raid gets the sparks which increase there damage for (not sure) 100%, mostly 2 stacks = 200% -> u dont!
A warrior tank has far more problems doing that!

- In phase 2 im the only tank (as mentioned above) so i need to tank 4 adds and put out a massive amount of AOE-Aggro so the raid can rush them down with a mix of AOE and single-focus. (Berserk is King here)
And the mobs still hitting for 6-7k each + Casts from the floating ones.(Survival Instincts + Barkskin out until 1 or 2 are down)

- Almost forgot: SKILL :grin:
--------------------------------------------------------------

With the polar set, i would not generate enough aggro for this fight.
I was never a friend of pure HP, but on the right items it's not a big loss in aggro/crit/ap/expertise/hit/dodge etc...

Polar Set is a resistance-gear and i will never use it as something else.

Solarflash
01-30-2009, 08:06 AM
Well, I totally agree that the polar set nerfs your offense, it does not make you incappable of holding threat. Threat is seriously a joke. There is only one character I have come across in game that can out threat me (besides tanks) and its a Warlock in "Execute" range. By the time we hit execute range though, I have such an enormous buffer it just doesn't matter.

A couple of reasons to not sell the polar set short:

1) the actual numbers from my previous gear are losing 105 agi, and gaining 338 stamina. Converts to ~4% dgd lost for 4140.5 HP unbuffed. Crit/Ap/Exp...all offensive stats...thats like asking your boomkin what his armor is!! Sure its nice, but it just doesn't matter. (Maybe for Malygos, but I would expect most don't see him, much less tank him without T7.5 gear)

2) There is a lot more frost damage coming out than just Sapph. in Naxx. Obviously nature or shadow would be better, but Frost isn't bad.

3) The Polar set has more armor! It comes with T7.5 armor equiv! (Armor is still our #1 mitigator right?)

4) Finally, you can have it long before setting foot in a single raid. I still think the Polar Set should be any raid bears first set of armor. Yes Tier gear is better balanced, but the Polar set is still the #1/#1 of stam sets. Stam is a very forgiving stat for new raiders.
--I personally think feral tier gear is too much kitty stats, and not enough bear stats.--

_______________________

Good debate though folks. All in all, mixed gear will always be best. I don't wear my stam/resist set for anything besides hard hitting bosses these days, but it did allow me to MT our guild through Naxx long before most of our players were geared for it. (Healers or DPS)

I wear mostly T7 stuff now with almost all agi gems. My armor took a big nerf with the patch though, so my Polar set still has slightly more mitigation, but significantly less avoidance.

windsaber/windriss
01-30-2009, 09:01 AM
Solarflash,

I hate to sound like a newbie, I'm not been feral tank for over 3.5yrs. I have a hard time getting aggro fast and holding aggro.

Could you list what you do to get aggro?

here's my toon, maybe my talents are wrong?

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malygos&n=Windsaber

Tank gear in on, I use this staff for more stam and agil

Solarflash
01-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Wind, your gear looks pretty good.
Since the Preserved Handwraps got nerfed, you may want to look into picking up some DPS kitty style gloves with +hit/agi on them. The stam loss shouldn't be too huge.
I would change out the +35agi on the staff for mongoose. I know swing for swing the mongoose proc has been said to help less, but that was long before swipe became a staple in the bear rotation. Raids require you to hit many many targets at once, I think you will see it up almost everytime the CD is gone. I would change out your Idol of terror for the idol I linked below.
For talents, if you are experiencing threat issues, take 2/2 out of Prim Pres, and the 1/3 out of Intensity and add them to KotJ. I haven't used this myself, but I have heard it really increases your DPS/TPS.

Too be fair, I think a lot of the reason, I don't have, or notice threat issues, is I have a very very good co-tank(s). (Its tough to say which one of us is the MT/OT) I run most raids with the Guild Leader who is a very good prot warrior. Anything I don't have, he does. He out threats me on single targets, but out threat him on AoE. For 25 man, we mix in a DK who is also a very talented player (he is also the one warlock that can give me fits if he isn't "dunce" capped (vigilance))

__________________________________________________ __________
Seriously, my threat gen rotation is highly situational.

For example, AoE trash, I like to ...

1) Glyphs should be Mangle/Maul/(your favorite, I like growl/others prefer FR)

2) Charge in and Mangle (this gets every mob around me and positioned before the DPS can even get in range, and the mob that got mangled will stick with me)

3) Then I like to walk back and to the side, kind of making an "L" shape, this places all mobs in the area in a conal swipe position.

4) SPAM Maul and Swipe...Then Loot! (One thing most bears don't use that I do is the Idol from the PVP zone in Grizzly Hills. It takes about 15 mins to get the coins to buy and it increase the base damage of maul and swipe)

Idol of Perspicacious Attacks
http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=38365

_________________________________________

Single Target,

1) Again, charge in. (FFF if no other druids in group) That gap between you and your DPS buys you an extra GCD or two while they position.

2) Here I like to open with Mangle and Maul proc'd (maul hits on its own timer, so some luck involved here) Mangle followed by maul (one will crit) will generate ~10k threat right off the bat.

3) Toss up a lacerate if your raid isn't bleed heavy, but DO NOT stack Lacerate x5 right away. You will eventually hit that mark on bosses etc from good refreshes, but Maul is a much much better threat generator.

__________________________________________
Buff with +hit food. I was using Agi/stam food, but the +40 hit helps my threat and DPS far more than the additional agi.

Fully raid buffed, I think my hit is around 140-150ish, so I need some work there, but don't want to give up too many other stats for it.

Oiysters
01-30-2009, 04:30 PM
Well, I totally agree that the polar set nerfs your offense, it does not make you incappable of holding threat. Threat is seriously a joke. There is only one character I have come across in game that can out threat me (besides tanks) and its a Warlock in "Execute" range. By the time we hit execute range though, I have such an enormous buffer it just doesn't matter.

A couple of reasons to not sell the polar set short:

1) the actual numbers from my previous gear are losing 105 agi, and gaining 338 stamina. Converts to ~4% dgd lost for 4140.5 HP unbuffed. Crit/Ap/Exp...all offensive stats...thats like asking your boomkin what his armor is!! Sure its nice, but it just doesn't matter. (Maybe for Malygos, but I would expect most don't see him, much less tank him without T7.5 gear)

2) There is a lot more frost damage coming out than just Sapph. in Naxx. Obviously nature or shadow would be better, but Frost isn't bad.

3) The Polar set has more armor! It comes with T7.5 armor equiv! (Armor is still our #1 mitigator right?)

4) Finally, you can have it long before setting foot in a single raid. I still think the Polar Set should be any raid bears first set of armor. Yes Tier gear is better balanced, but the Polar set is still the #1/#1 of stam sets. Stam is a very forgiving stat for new raiders.
--I personally think feral tier gear is too much kitty stats, and not enough bear stats.--

_______________________

Good debate though folks. All in all, mixed gear will always be best. I don't wear my stam/resist set for anything besides hard hitting bosses these days, but it did allow me to MT our guild through Naxx long before most of our players were geared for it. (Healers or DPS)

I wear mostly T7 stuff now with almost all agi gems. My armor took a big nerf with the patch though, so my Polar set still has slightly more mitigation, but significantly less avoidance.
I agree with everything you say here. I'll still go with my full mitigation set for all hard-hitting physical bosses; it's my preference and that of my healing corps (especially when we are gearing/training up a new tank and I'm part of the healing corps), but for fights where the physical component of the damage I'm taking is relatively small (Sartharion is the most extreme example, but there are others) mitigation and avoidance aren't going to concern the healers as much so why not have a huge cushion to absorb spell damage. I use Item Rack so changing gear between fights is trivial.

Oiysters
01-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Solarflash,

I hate to sound like a newbie, I'm not been feral tank for over 3.5yrs. I have a hard time getting aggro fast and holding aggro.

Could you list what you do to get aggro?

here's my toon, maybe my talents are wrong?

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malygos&n=Windsaber

Tank gear in on, I use this staff for more stam and agil
KotJ helps initial aggro if you pull with Enrage by giving a short damage boost. If you don't use Enrage it won't help you.

The pulling techniques Solar outlined should give you all the aggro you need.

Also remember that if the dps is pulling aggro off of you it's not your fault, it's theirs.

Kheldar
01-30-2009, 04:45 PM
Also remember that if the dps is pulling aggro off of you it's not your fault, it's theirs.
Amen to that Brother !

Save me from incompetent DPS that only live to 'wtf i pwn ze dps m8s' !!

Solarflash
02-02-2009, 07:53 AM
KotJ helps initial aggro if you pull with Enrage by giving a short damage boost. If you don't use Enrage it won't help you. [...]

Another nice feature to the KotJ is when you are not tanking. KotJ is a HUGE asset to your kitty DPS. I found that my kitty DPS increase by about 275 DPS on bosses that I was not needed to tank.

s3Rgio
02-02-2009, 08:43 AM
Another nice feature to the KotJ is when you are not tanking. KotJ is a HUGE asset to your kitty DPS. I found that my kitty DPS increase by about 275 DPS on bosses that I was not needed to tank.

Can only agree with that.
Without KotJ i would never be able to do a rotation of:
- SR
- RIP
- FB

Oiysters
02-03-2009, 01:24 PM
I also agree with this. I'm now speccing differently for each raid based on the role I will play and who I expect to attend.

For Naxx I spec to maximize kitty dps, setting aside IW and ILotP and picking up BI and PI. For Sarth with drakes I take ILotP and IW. For 5 mans I pick up MSS for extra damage. Changing specs makes tanking more interesting and focused for the situation. Forget dual-spec, I need quint-spec!

windsaber/windriss
02-05-2009, 04:33 PM
Is infected wounds worth having for tanking?
Sounds like it doesn't do any damage.

Let me know, I can take the points out of that
Thanks
Windsaber

tlbj6142
02-05-2009, 04:43 PM
IW is a DR talent. It slows the attack speed of the boss. This reduces the damage you take. I thought I read it is ~4-5% DR.

All but 1-2 of the current bosses are affected by IW.

Oiysters
02-05-2009, 05:31 PM
Is infected wounds worth having for tanking?
Sounds like it doesn't do any damage.

Let me know, I can take the points out of that
Thanks
Windsaber
If you always have a DK with you, you can skip it. If you don't run with a DK, keep it in your spec. It's a very good tanking talent, but DK's use Icy Touch as part of their normal dps rotation, and IT overwrites IW.

Kheldar
02-06-2009, 05:33 AM
do all DK's have icy touch ?

a guildie just got his dk to 80 insterad of his rogue or kitty druid....

Solarflash
02-06-2009, 11:53 AM
I think IT is a Frost DK thing (Frost = tank)

Yrys
02-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Icy Touch (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909) is a default DK ability that slows attack speed by 14%. Improved Icy Touch is a low-level Frost talent that increases that to 20% (which is the same slow as double-stacked, maxed IW).

Oiysters
02-06-2009, 12:03 PM
I think IT is a Frost DK thing (Frost = tank)
All three DK trees are very viable for tanking.

The "problem" is that IT overwrites IW, regardless of rank. Spec into it and run with a DK and you will see it drop off almost immediately after it is applied. You're better off putting the points somewhere else unless you don't have a DK consistently or in certain special circumstances, like Sarth with drakes where you're tanking by yourself for most of the fight.

I have rage problems in five mans if I don't spec out of it, so it's a very effective talent if you're not geared up yet or you don't run with a DK.

Solarflash
02-06-2009, 01:12 PM
Well, DK's are a dime a dozen these days on our server, so I guess its time to kiss IW good-bye.

Oiysters
02-06-2009, 05:39 PM
I like moving those points into PI for a little extra pewpew in kitty, myself. Although if you're getting ready to enter Construct Quarter, PT isn't a horrible option either. Those aboms like to stun.

Solarflash
02-06-2009, 07:58 PM
yeah, I think I will move them into PT as well. I would rather have better defensive skillz than offensive. I already out DPS the other tanks by a fairly heafty margin.

Oiysters
02-07-2009, 11:36 AM
yeah, I think I will move them into PT as well. I would rather have better defensive skillz than offensive. I already out DPS the other tanks by a fairly heafty margin.
PI only affects kitty form, PT only helps if you're stunned. Both pretty expensive talent-point wise for a bear tank, unfortunately. But Imp Mangle is kinda meh for tanking so why not?

Kheldar
02-07-2009, 03:03 PM
PI only affects kitty form, PT only helps if you're stunned. Both pretty expensive talent-point wise for a bear tank, unfortunately. But Imp Mangle is kinda meh for tanking so why not?
dont forget PT now reduces the mana cost of bear/cat by 50%

:rolleyes:

Oiysters
02-07-2009, 04:12 PM
dont forget PT now reduces the mana cost of bear/cat by 50%

:rolleyes:
Very true. It's ultimately an awesome PvP talent. IMO it really only has PvE value when your healers are at their limit trying to keep you alive and you need every scrap of mitigation you can get. As we have seen from the awesome debate we had, neither Solar or I have that problem, and of the two of us I am the mitigation whore.:sumo:

However, if you never or rarely go cat form while in tanking spec, PI has absolutely no value whatsoever making PT a very valid choice.

Kheldar
02-08-2009, 06:56 AM
yeah if i did pvp i'd love PT now - although it made up for them taking int off some pvp gear iirc ?

yeah - i did not bother with PI as although i do dailys in cat form i decided it was not worth spending the points when i really hope to do tanking in 5 mans.