View Full Forums : Are 5-mans "beneath" many players???


tlbj6142
02-20-2009, 03:26 PM
I've heard this from several players (including 2 co-workers), that it seems as though the thought of running a heroic 5-man is beneath them. It is not like these guys are hardcore, in fact many don't sound all that knowledgeable at all. I just get the feeling that "why would you run heroics when you can run 6 raids per week (10/25 nax, 10/25 os, 10/25 vault, etc.)?" It is not like these folks have been geared up completely in heroics and are done with them, they just seem to sort of "skip" them after 1-3 runs.

In particular I always get this odd "why the hell would you do that?" stare when I tell them "I ran 12 heroics over the weekend. It was a blast." Maybe its just me, but 5-mans tend to be a bit more fun for the tank than most raids.

Could it be more of an ego thing? "I'd rather crash and burn in Naxx than succeed in hHoL."

Anyone else notice this? Thoughts?

Kheldar
02-20-2009, 04:07 PM
people want the loot and if they have the time to raid then they'll raid and yes i suspect a lot think heroics are a waste of time.

possibly they could be correct but many probably have not played wow for long enough to have actually done 5 mans. they just race to max level and then want to raid for best loot. so if they do 5 man its just quickly whilst levelling - its a means to an end not something they see as fun or that necessary, just a way to hit 70 or 80 and then do 'proper' wow raiding endgame !

whereas actually u learn the most in a 5 man when there are only 4 others in the grp, one of which is always a tank and one a healer (unless u r one of these!).

you have to know your class and the other classes. u have to understand how to play as a small team.

in the old days when i did 40 mans you did not notice if 1 or more players were not really there - certainly dps !!

i think 5 mans can/should be fun for all. its just they dont give the tier loot and most people just want the next loot item to show everyone.

the fact that you say they dont sound knowledgeable bears me out.

before i got near a 40 man raid i'd done a million and 1 5 mans whilst levelling and whilst trying to build up my gear with my wildheart set etc :o !!!

skwidrific
02-20-2009, 04:11 PM
Good question, man...

i wouldn't say that 5 mans are "beneath" anyone in my guild, more like i think that most people in my guild are a little burnt out on them... it's definitely more difficult for me to find a group to mow down the daily than it used to be. The unfortunate thing about that is that I still have a TON of rep to grind.

My own personal viewpoint is that I would rather skip most 10-mans and go directly into 25-mans... Almost all of the Naxx that I've seen has been a part of a 25-man group, rather than 10-man, which is fine by me... the emblems from 25-man are better, along with the lootz.

tlbj6142
02-20-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah, it does seem like a gear thing. But don't you sort of need heroic gear before you raid?

Though in LK you can get some really nice crafted items, but it doesn't sound like they even do that....

I can see if you burned out on them, but I just don't get that impression from these folks. According to my "stats" I've finished hNexus 11-12 times (every fricken healer wants that mace that drops). I'd run it again without issue. But I can't anyone to run hUK anymore. Thankfully, I was able to get my staff on my first run. And reach exalted with the dragon folks for the wrists...

Goose
02-22-2009, 11:22 PM
I agree 5 mans are so unpopular in wotlk. Without the need to use CC, its just mindless aoe killing. I think when blizz releases the epic gems, and raiders have to farm some heroics to get their gems it'll be a little better.

Currently the reasons i don't like farming heroics often:
If i run with my best in slot guildies, the dps don't even really need a tank, b/c they can dps the adds down before they even get to them. If i pugg, then i'm confronted with bad groups that die and consequently cause me to die and pay uber repair bills.

Hopefully patch 3.2 might release a new heroic or two tuned for raiders, not entry lvl 80s

tlbj6142
02-23-2009, 09:35 AM
Hopefully patch 3.2 might release a new heroic or two tuned for raiders, not entry lvl 80sI was sort of hoping they would do that with each raid patch. Sort of like Sunwell. We got MgT. Gives the casuals something to do and raiders as well.

Goose
02-23-2009, 12:06 PM
i know what you mean, sadly i don't think they've planned much yet. I noticed from spoilers tha they definately actually pulled one of the ulduar 5 mans before wotlk release and the bosses are now in the approaching 3.1 patch.

Avearis
02-24-2009, 07:12 AM
Even when I was able to play much more than I can now, I've never liked big raids. There's something very impersonal about being in a group with 24 (or 39) other people. And with that many people there are always at least one or two who want to act like idiots. In a five man group it's different. First, it's easier to get four other people together that you know and enjoy playing with, so it's unlikely you'll have to deal with morons. Second, it's easier to socialize with four people than 24. I never come out of a 25 man raid feeling like I know my guildies any better, but it's a common occurence in heroics or even 10 man raids.

I applaud Blizzard's 10 man option for all raids, but I don't understand why the drops aren't as high quality. In going from a 25 man to a 10 man raid, the drops should be the same, just 60% less frequent, and the degree of difficulty should be equal for each individual.

Solarflash
02-24-2009, 08:37 AM
Ironically, the 10-man encounters are far more difficult than the 25-mans. The only thing more complicated about Naxx-25 than Naxx-10 is the organizing of 15 extra people. I agree, the gear should be equal quality, but then I would never run 25-mans.

tlbj6142
02-24-2009, 09:25 AM
I like 5-mans as I have found 10/25 raids to be far more boring as a tank. I would assume a healer would find 5-mans a bit more challenging as well.

Solarflash
02-24-2009, 01:05 PM
I think its safe to say, when WotLK first was released I was a heroic-aholic. Now, the thought of another H-HoL/HoS almost sickens me!!!

It's safe to say there is literally nothing I can benefit from in a heroic except helping guildies get new gear/experience.

I don't want to say that heroics are "below" me, but gear wise they are certainly not useful. I have every piece of druid gear I can get from the badge vendor (PVE and PVP), so those things are more or less useless now. My Feral/Boomkin/Resto sets are almost fully epic'd out too.

Guess its time to get to work on those alts! :)

tlbj6142
02-24-2009, 01:09 PM
I can understand the gear issue, but often I hear/read about folks running a handful of heroics and then plowing their way thru raids. I guess you could do that if you are DPS and/or a 3rd healer in 10-man or healer number 3-5 in a 25-man, but not as a tank.

Maybe for me it is a time commitment issue, with 5-man I know I'll be out in 20-100 minutes, but a raid I could be in it for 5 hours and down 3 bosses. Sure the loot is "better", but damn that sort of sucks.

Oiysters
02-24-2009, 03:11 PM
1. Ego.
2. The gear gap between heroics and Naxx is way too small and people like shortcuts.
3. Five hours for three bosses makes me cry for you. Our first time in was eight hours for a full clear, then five hours the second time, now down to three hours with our best.

tlbj6142
02-24-2009, 03:21 PM
1. Ego.Agree. I think this is a big issue.2. The gear gap between heroics and Naxx is way too small and people like shortcuts.Again, this is true. I'm amazed that some of the 10-man stuff is sometimes a little worst than what I can get crafted or from 5-mans.3. Five hours for three bosses makes me cry for you.Actually I haven't been in Naxx yet as my schedule hasn't matched up with the guild's. Though "we" (the guild) has spent in excess of 15+ hours in Naxx. I think they (one 10-man group) cleared 2-3(?) wings this past weekend (took 3 nights).

Solarflash
02-25-2009, 08:21 AM
Though "we" (the guild) has spent in excess of 15+ hours in Naxx. I think they (one 10-man group) cleared 2-3(?) wings this past weekend (took 3 nights).

Yikes, our first 10 man cleared 2 wings in about 3.5 hours... I think the big difference in difficulty with heroics vs Naxx, is most guilds (at least ours) went into naxx knowing every encounter before ever doing them. Heroics are much more..."eh, we'll figure it out when we get there". So preperations for raid needs to be made, and as a result make the content seem easier.

skwidrific
02-25-2009, 11:38 AM
Even when I was able to play much more than I can now, I've never liked big raids. There's something very impersonal about being in a group with 24 (or 39) other people. And with that many people there are always at least one or two who want to act like idiots. In a five man group it's different. First, it's easier to get four other people together that you know and enjoy playing with, so it's unlikely you'll have to deal with morons. Second, it's easier to socialize with four people than 24. I never come out of a 25 man raid feeling like I know my guildies any better, but it's a common occurence in heroics or even 10 man raids.

I applaud Blizzard's 10 man option for all raids, but I don't understand why the drops aren't as high quality. In going from a 25 man to a 10 man raid, the drops should be the same, just 60% less frequent, and the degree of difficulty should be equal for each individual.

I like what you touched on about raiding with 24 other people, and it makes me grateful for the guild I'm in. Everyone gets along with each other. We're all pretty laid back, and very forgiving of each other. I'm lucky to belong to guild with such cool people in it. We may not be the most progressive guild, as we have yet to down KT in Naxx25 as a guild run, but we enjoy the game for what it is: a game.
We had an instance of a DK guildie that did strong dps acting like a complete idiot in vent. He is now no longer a member of the guild, and our runs have been much more fun since.

I'm getting to the point gear-wise where heroics do absolutely no good for me, other than rep, and i have 7 slots that would benefit from Naxx10 drops. Other than that, it's been Naxx25 all the way. I'd say I've been pretty successful going from heroics to Naxx25.

Solarflash
02-25-2009, 12:05 PM
Our guild did the 10 man farm first then went to 25 man. In hind sight we should have just done 25 man from the start. The 10 man got a few of us some good upgrades but for the most part just caused minor drama in guild when some of our weaker members had to get benched each week while we learned the instance and progressed. 25 man is just easier, and depending on the guild is just as personal as most 5 mans. For me, 25 man is more laid back and comfortable than 5-10 mans because I am always with the people I am most comfortable with. 5-10 mans I am usually with a few new people/PUGs, and then there is just a different atmosphere.

Avearis
02-25-2009, 12:33 PM
Oh yeah- one other thing I dislike about big raids: As a feral druid, whether I'm DPSing or tanking, I'm right in the middle of the fight. With about 15 DPSers AoEing everything and all the graphics they generate, I'm lucky to be able to even SEE the mob(s) I'm hitting (even more so with all the AoE in WotLK), much less tell which way they're facing. I looks like a big fireworks explosion on my screen, no matter how I adjust my camera angle. Staying behind a mob for shredding gets pretty challenging, especially if the tank likes to move a lot.

I don't begrudge those of you who like big raids; to each his own. I just think my preferences and time constraints shouldn't preclude me from having access to the best gear if I'm good enough to play the toon right.

tlbj6142
02-25-2009, 12:49 PM
That can be annoying. I keep spell graphics at the min level unless I need to raise it up a notch for a certain boss mechanic.

For 3+ mob trash, as a cat, you should use rake, SR, (slight pause) swipe, TF, swipe, swipe. Or if you want to go crazy rake, SR, swipe, TF, berserk, swipe until you die from pulling threat.