Has anyone had the time to read the latest proposed changes?

Druid (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Glyph of Rebirth -- Players resurrected by Rebirth are returned to life with 100% health. (Old: Increases the amount of health on a character brought back to life via Rebirth by 100%.)
* Glyph of Starfall -- Reduces the cooldown of Starfall by 90 sec. (Old: Increases the duration of Starfall by 2 sec.)
* Glyph of Berserk *new* -- Increases the duration of Berserk by 5 sec.
* Glyph of Wild Growth *new* -- Wild Growth now affects up to 6 targets.
* Glyph of Nourish *new* -- Your Nourish heals an additional 6% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target.
* Glyph of Savage Roar *new* -- Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 6% bonus damage done.
* Glyph of Typhoon *new* -- Reduces the cooldown of your Typhoon spell by 3 sec.
* Glyph of Barkskin *new* -- Reduces the chance you'll be critically hit by melee attacks by 1 to 0% while Barkskin is active.

Classes Undocumented Changes/Spell Comparison
Please note that the stats of the spells here are taken directly from the game files and might be different from the officiel patch notes. This is a list of the differences between tooltips of classes spells, just don't jump to any conclusion just because a change is here and wait until it reaches the live server.

Feral Combat
Skills

* Faerie Fire now decreases armor by 5%. (Previously decreased armor by a set amount)
* Savage Roar changed to increase physical damage done by 30%. (Previously increased attack power by 40%)
* Maim now stuns the target instead of incapacitate.
* *New Spell* Savage Defense, 1 rank, level 40 - Each time you deal a melee critical strike, you gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 25% of your attack power.

Talents

* Survival of the Fittest (Tier 6) now increases your armor contribution from cloth and leather items in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form by 11/22/33%. (Previously 22/44/66%)
* Predatory Strikes (Tier 4) now increases now includes Moonkin Form in its effect.
* *New Talent* Primal Gore, Tier 10, 1 point talent - Grants the periodic damage from your Rake, Lacerate and Rip abilities the ability to critically hit.

I think this will push me toward a cat-bear dual spec rather than a bear/cat--moonkin dual spec. They seem to be boosting bear and cat quite a bit while at the same time separating them a bit more. And I just don't know if I can "keep up" and stay fully informed on 3-4 specs. So, I might just take the lazy way out and do cat-bear.

1000g for dual-specs seems a bit steep if you ask me.

I wonder how much armor we're going to lose for the new ability "Savage Defense" ?

Looks like we will lose half of what we currently gain from SotF. From 66% to 33%. Not sure what that translates into in terms of an exact armor value.

* Savage Roar changed to increase physical damage done by 30%. (Previously increased attack power by 40%)

* *New Spell* Savage Defense, 1 rank, level 40 - Each time you deal a melee critical strike, you gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 25% of your attack power.

Talents

* *New Talent* Primal Gore, Tier 10, 1 point talent - Grants the periodic damage from your Rake, Lacerate and Rip abilities the ability to critically hit.


wow, that is gonna be such a buff to feral dps, and taht primal gore gore talent with lacerate being able to crit will be incredible i think with savage Defense

can't wait to test the increase in damage

amazing cat changes, primal gore is so sexy. however this patch is gonna be realy expensive it seems, might have to change all my gem to either crit or agility. hopefully EJ has some definitive asnwers to what to stack now.


****edit: its a resto talent change, theres a talent that adds 10% to Barkskin. enjoy

i like the glyphs but i'm still not convinced with yet another armour reduction to be replaced by a 'something' that may make up for it ?

im curious about the numbers.

the change of savage roar gives about the same damage-boost to white damage as before.
we'll see if crit makes up for the damage-boost through SR. but i think it will.

@Goose:
I think AGI will be less viable than it is now.
The change in SR goes to physical damage, which is increased through STR the most.
And we are already over 50% crit raidbuffed.
So i wouldnt focus any more on AGI/CRIT.

Savage Defense i dont like.
Or i dont like the fact, that the whole shield is gone after one hit. And it doesnt matter it its a 5k hit or a 100 hit....
For boss tanking it will be a win, but for trash we will take a lot more damage.

Savage Defense i dont like.
Or i dont like the fact, that the whole shield is gone after one hit. And it doesnt matter it its a 5k hit or a 100 hit....
For boss tanking it will be a win, but for trash we will take a lot more damage.

I agree...Also, think of encounters like Patchwerk. He hits at an incredible speed (~1 sec) the fastest we can hit is ~2 secs with haste, so we have to crit every single time to get less mitigation than we had before.

I hope I am misunderstanding this talent...or we are getting nerfed into no longer being a viable tank.

.... the fastest we can hit is ~2 secs with haste, so we have to crit every single time to get less mitigation than we had before....


U are wrong about that. We hit about every second.
Maul every 2-2.5 sec.
Lacerate-Ticks every 2 secs.
Swipe or Lacerate every 1.5 sec.
And with Lacerate beeing able to crit with 3.1.
I'm at around 35% crit in bear so aprox. i would get the shield about every 3-4 secs. It might be pretty good on bosses.

It will be interesting to see if Lacerate's bleed does proc SD. If it does that would be great. But I could put lacerate on 5 mobs. Does that mean SD is always up?

yeah EJ calculated the average tank to probably hit about once every1.04 seconds

@sergio, the change in SR means it doesnt' just increase AP any more. so strenght isn't necessarily the only stat. So the new question is increasing your dps by a flat 16srength (buffed 45ap?) or increasing by a scaling factor of 16 agil (.25% crit?). Now at some point this these to graphed function cross and crit becomes more valuable. under the old system i remember reading something like they crossed at approximately 12.5kap, however under this new system I'm betting that graph has been shifted significantly. You also mentioned a good point, our crit is already pretty high. because of mechanics of glancing blows, we're always going to glance, not crit 25% of our blows. so at some point crit becomes less and less good. I don't know this number at all but i would say its atleast higher than 60%. At this point it might be good to switch to another scaling factor such as armor pen? I'm not sure if it will or not since armor pen doesn't help our bleeds, but it sounds better than haste on a kitty.

I was under the impression that bleeds don't currently crit. Is that wrong? If so, then lacerate would not proc SD, correct?

Its only bear crits that proc it?

I was under the impression that bleeds don't currently crit. Is that wrong?Bleeds will crit in 3.1 if you have Primal Gore (a new talent in the feral tree) that requires 5/5 RnT.

some of those kitty and Glyph changes are downright sexytime... I think I'm going to have to go with TLB on this one... Cat main spec, Bear as second spec.

1000g to switch off spec at ANY time out-of-combat? Money well spent in my book.

These changes should make us ferals more viable in PvP as well. Hooray!

1000g to switch off spec at ANY time out-of-combat? Sort of. You need to be near a lexicon of power to switch specs. Either in town or summoned via inscriber created reagent.

Sort of. You need to be near a lexicon of power to switch specs. Either in town or summoned via inscriber created reagent.
And the inscription item supposedly needs 3 people to "summon", doesn't it? So you won't be using it solo unless they change something...

All changed. A blue said there is no need to be near a lexicon anymore. Also, they lowered the level to 40.

Hmm, does it have a cooldown? Do you have a link to the post?

5 sec cast, no CD. Cannot be cast in combat.

1k gold to buy, minimum level 40

http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/02/24/dual-spec-available-at-level-40-reagent-requirement-removed/

1k gold to buy, minimum level 40What lvl 40 player is gonna have 1000g? It was hard enough to get 80g to buy your mount. Though honestly who needs it at lvl 40?

Though honestly who needs it at lvl 40?


This. Honestly, anytime I ran an instance pre-60, it was as a healer with an entirely feral build, and a decent healing set. I can't really imagine anyone needing to change their spec as a make-or-break situation for an instance.

I just now saw the change to Maim... NOT a fan :( it was an advantage that i thouroughly enjoyed, once i learned how to time it... The other night i absolutely kaPWNED a warrior timing my maims just right... This was right after my rogue team mate and i discovered how to beat a (sloppy) pally/warrior combo in arena.

Why another nerf to armor, does blizz want druids "Not" to tank. Every year the same thing, nerf bear armor.
I wish Blizz would stop listening to the crying of others to nerf us!

i'd really like for someone on the PTR to comment on the new defense mechanic before i make a decision on whether it's a nerf or not... The bear tank in our guild, (i've gone strictly dps) from what i've seen, hasn't had a single issue with mitigation. Not one. If i had *my* choice, i'd be inclined to give up a little armor for some magic mitigation, both on boss fights, and in PvP...

*edit*
just saw this: *New Spell* Savage Defense, 1 rank, level 40 - Each time you deal a melee critical strike, you gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 25% of your attack power.

so now i don't know what the heck to think... carry on...

This isn't a little armor gone, it's half of your armor!
If they go with this us feral tanks will be worthless!

Really gets me mad, I work so hard to raise my armor then nerf, then work hard again and now may loose half of my armor, this is bull!

We all need to tell Blizz- NO!

That's what I think.

This isn't a little armor gone, it's half of your armor!Its 20% armor loss. Not 50%. It is a 50% loss to the armor boost provided by SotF.

I saw a screen shot of someone on the PTR vs Live (some EJ thread). He had 32K (?) on live and only 26k(?) on the PTR. The net loss was ~6200 armor.

Unfortunately, the PTR does not have SD enabled. So, we are all guessing about whether it provides enough help to overcome the 20% loss.

The fact that it doesn't offer magic mitigation seems to completely defeat any advantage that the ability may have brought us.

Also, 25% of AP is not that much reduction. 6200 armor is far more mitigation to physcial attacks than 25% of AP and armor is constent. Say a bear is ~6k Ap raid buffed(generous), that is a reduction of 1500 incoming dmg, oh, and only if you just landed a crit, safe to say <50% of the time.

Only time will tell. What starts on the PTR is almost never what makes it live, so I have hope blizz will see the gaping flaw in their theory.

Its 20% armor loss. Not 50%. It is a 50% loss to the armor boost provided by SotF.

I saw a screen shot of someone on the PTR vs Live (some EJ thread). He had 32K (?) on live and only 26k(?) on the PTR. The net loss was ~6200 armor.

Unfortunately, the PTR does not have SD enabled. So, we are all guessing about whether it provides enough help to overcome the 20% loss.

its more than 20 percent armor. all the armor modifiers are multiplied together, so the final armor product is being cut by 33%. My armor on live is approximately 34kish, PTR i'm down to 25.7k armor.

its more than 20 percent armor. all the armor modifiers are multiplied together, so the final armor product is being cut by 33%. My armor on live is approximately 34kish, PTR i'm down to 25.7k armor.

No, it is about 20%. 133/166 = .8 (80%). Though your number is ~25% loss, so maybe I have the math wrong.

i hope it does not happen. i'm not a number cruncher but it does not seem to stack up that we're not going to be losing out here with this proposed change.

Blizz just seem to be out to screw us ?

Blizz just seem to be out to screw us ?


I have to agree. Pally's and DK's are currently better tanks than druids, so I not sure how we got painted with the bullseye for the nerf hammer.

They both mitigate or avoid better than druids, and have godly 360 degree aggro.

It is not about being nerf'd. It is about scaling better with gear. And giving Druids more stats to watch besides armor, agi and +sta. That is blizzard's goal. And, believe it or not, the Druid community has asked for this since August (in many cases the exact same changes that are being proposed). So, for the most part, Blizzard is listening to the end users. Though it has taken them some time to get around to doing the work.

FWIW, I sort of like swipe. But if they could boost self-cast'd thorns a bit (change the thorns glyph??)??? That would help with the 360 issues.

we asked for our armour to be totally nerfed and replaced with something on the face of it looks rather weak and not an 'always on' stat/ability compared to the benefit we get from armour ?

no matter what Blizz do every class will always watch some stats as priorities and then rank the others lower....no one can watch and stack all stats as priority 1. so if we dont watch ar/agi/sta we'll watch something else for a few months til they change us again ?

but what they seem to be doing with this (nerf) is not replacing a proposed reduction to our armour ( so soon after a previous change - which has i thought worked out well ?) that will allow us to keep pace with the other tank classes.

we asked for our armour to be totally nerfed and replaced with something on the face of it looks rather weak and not an 'always on' stat/ability compared to the benefit we get from armour ?First SD isn't implemented on the PTR yet so this discussion is mostly speculation as we have no idea what the final numbers will be.... Blizzard could change our agi to crit ratio? Change the AP percentage used in SD, change the SotF numbers, what affect does the new Primal Gore talent have on this change?, etc.

Druids asked that armor not be their #1 stat, Druids did not want to reach the armor cap, Druids wanted offensive stats to convert into a defensive stat/ability. That's what Blizzard is doing.

Why do you think they gave us Barkskin and FI? Druids wanted more "buttons to push".

Frankly, I was happy with a simple model, but then some folks like the overly complex stuff and are never happy.

And just you make you really, really, happy there appears to be a +sta nerf on the PTR as well. HotW now only gives us 10% rather than 20%.

Just change the SD mechanic to reduce "Damage" and not "Physical Damage" and it will be a bit easier to swallow.

buttons to push are fine.

nerfing us again and again is not.

reduce hotw sucks totally.

again it looks like blizz dont know what they are doing, but we suffer.

If you look back through the years I believe feral druids have been nerfed more then any other.
I believe Blizz. wants Druids not to tank anymore so there Big DK can take top billing (Hero class).
We need our armor to stay the same and stam. Our aggro doesn't compare to any other tanking class, yet we get nerfed, seems real odd to me.
Does Blizz want to the druid class to be just healing and boomkin.

I remember back when Blizz said we are splitting up the bear and cat talents so if you want to dps you can do as much as a rogue. I believe we aren't even close to rogue dps in cat!
Then if you spec bear you can tank as well as a warrior or DK, I believe we can't.

This really burns me, for years I've been a feral tank, I hope they don't screw us more.

If you look back through the years I believe feral druids have been nerfed more then any otherFYI, every class says this. And every class is paranoid that Blizzard hates them and that other classes are their favorites.

FWIW, we only have 2 DKs in our guild that are even remotely "active". When I pug I almost never see one. The only class I see less than DKs are Hunters. Where have they all gone? Are they DKs? If so, that would explain a lot.

FYI, every class says this. And every class is paranoid that Blizzard hates them and that other classes are their favorites.


Agreed, but I play a hunter too. We got nerfed, and deserve another to be honest. Explosive shot is OP. My first main was a mage (<TBC era), so I can say without hesitation that Druids don't know the meaning of Nerf Bat as of yet. Kitty's atm will hands down out DPS a rogue, and rogues have a right to QQ about that (They are the mages of WotLK) Bears atm do under perform other tanks in all things expect Physical mitigation and HP pools. So the nerf/change coming seems to be the result of druids not be happy with our simplicity. I absolutley take the, "if its not broke, don't fix it" attitude, but Blizz feels differently.


FWIW, we only have 2 DKs in our guild that are even remotely "active". When I pug I almost never see one. The only class I see less than DKs are Hunters. Where have they all gone? Are they DKs? If so, that would explain a lot.

Our server is overrun with DK's atm. Hunters are rare at 80, but abondent in the 70-79 range (hard to not want a 5k DPSer). A crappy DK will beat a good player in most classes head to head. That is just the reality of the class design. (They are very much like the ferals of ol', able to tank and DPS well with one spec) In the end, the changes are in PTR and will go live regardless, but I have to take the side that they are unneeded if not unfair.

Our server is overrun with DK's atm. Hunters are rare at 80, but abondent in the 70-79 range (hard to not want a 5k DPSer).Are you on a PvP or PvE server? Seems like DKs are OP in PvP so maybe more are playing them on PvP servers. Espeically if they can do 2 roles with one spec.

I admit there were plenty of DKs a couple of months ago, they just seem to have faded away on my server. At least it seems like it. Maybe they are all doing PvP (BGs, Arenas, WG, etc.), which I never do anymore

I've also noticed very few Rogues, but then on my PvE server, rogues were sort of rare. I have to wonder if all of our rogues and hunters became DKs?!?!? Would be interesting to see those stats...

If you look back through the years I believe feral druids have been nerfed more then any other.

Really. Ok, let's look back through the years. Prior to 1.4, there essentially were no "Feral Druids." The Feral tree was utterly hideous. Even if you leveled in catform, you had more points in Restoration than anywhere else, because the Resto talents were better for damage output in cat/bear than the Feral talents were. Whatever Feral talents there were, with only a couple exceptions, benefitted either cat OR bear form.

Between 1.4 and the end of vanilla WoW, we actually made pretty solid tanks for instances, even though there was essentially no gear for us, outside the odd 1 or 2 drops from Naxx. The Druid tier sets were solely for Restoration, offering a minor benefit to Balance, and nothing for Feral. To tank, you used a level 43 world-drop item which never improved, and if you were lucky, someone could craft you the molten leather pieces which had armor and fire resist but no other stats. With this setup, we did okay through MC/BWL when we hit the armor cap, but then stopped scaling altogether. There was simply no cat gear available, and Cat DPS wasn't even a serious option at any level.

Now, there WAS a surge when the start of BC came out, and we got pruned back, but Druids were good tanks -- so good that the top dungeons in the expansion got a pervasive effect so we wouldn't be the only option available. Not to mention, Feral DPS -- which was okay and Feral Tank all fit in to a single spec.

Again, we got pruned back at the start of Wrath, but in this case, most of it came before the game was even released, so I have trouble taking that seriously, either.

Look, they've done some irritating and to my eyes, dumb things along the way. But Feral is light years ahead of where it was "years back" and has gone from an inconceivable joke to weak offspec to a serious power option. If that's a nerf, whack me some more with that nerf bat.

I am on a "RP" server, which translates to PvE server.

We had a fair number of rogues in TBC, but WotLK has killed them. In guild we had 2 that just left the game, one of the reasons being their characters becoming un-needed.

Obviously Rogues are PVP minded folks, so I would assume a fair number migrated to WarHammer too.

Cats can do the DPS a rogue can!

I am on a "RP" server, which translates to PvE serverMe, too. Weird that you see more DKs than I do. We've never had all that many rogues either. But there seem to be fewer of them now.

On my server there are tons of DK's (Malygos).
Can you do as much DPS in cat as a rogue?
I doubt it even with the best gear.

I'm not trying to cry, I hope Blizz doesn't do what the rumors say that's all. If we loose to much armor and stam we won't be good tanks.

...
Can you do as much DPS in cat as a rogue?
I doubt it even with the best gear.
...

Yep. I'm on par with our rouges. About 4.5k DPS (max. 5k).
But it depends on Encounter.
On movement encounters i do a bit less than rouges, cause combat-rogues dont require to stand behind the mob.

wowinsider confirmed they're nerfing HOTW by 10percent stamina gain. /cry blizzard, /cry

Well, I had an eye opening experience this weekend in Naxx-25. I was tanking Maex in my stam gear, and once she enraged, I popped my trinkets/FR....etc. With everything popped, and full raid buffed, I was at 49.5k armor (75% mit/capped) 56.5% dodge, and 67.5k+ health.

I think when you look at our numbers unbuffed and out of combat we are a completely different beast. I guess an armor nerf may not be all that obsurd. I didn't realize that there were buffs out there that would stack our armor so high now. After talking with guildies a bit, it sounds like most of my armor boost came from a Shammy ability.

I sit at about ~35k armor / 32k HP / 38.5% dgd unbuffed.

How in the world did u reack 49.5k armor??
U got a boost for about 14k armor??
Or was it cause of the healers +25% armor blabla?

And i have to disagree... this is a 20-30 sec duration when u have those stats. It's the O-****-situation.
U have to look at your stats while normal boss-tanking without big CDs.

How in the world did u reack 49.5k armor??
U got a boost for about 14k armor?? Isn't there a shammy heal that if it crits you get like 6K armor?

How in the world did u reack 49.5k armor??
U got a boost for about 14k armor??
Or was it cause of the healers +25% armor blabla?

And i have to disagree... this is a 20-30 sec duration when u have those stats. It's the O-****-situation.
U have to look at your stats while normal boss-tanking without big CDs.

Yes, it was with the armor buff from the healers & Indes Potion.

Yes, its temporary. But I think you always have to consider the cooldowns. In most cases, educated use of cooldowns is the difference between average tanks and excellent ones.

The addition of Barkskin and SI while in bear form was in direct response to the fact that druids lacked cooldowns, and that made us undesirable.

For Example, I cycle through Barkskin and 2 dodge trinkets while fighting Patchwerk. I save SI/FR for the "Oh Shizzle" situation, but a tank saving the other CD's is putting a lot of undue stress on their healers.

Also, near the end of any boss fight, I pop all my cooldowns. It just makes life a bit easier on healers that are likely already stressed, as well as heads off any potential disaster that can ensue in the last ~5% or so.

wowinsider confirmed they're nerfing HOTW by 10percent stamina gain. /cry blizzard, /cryIt is really only a 8% loss as we now gain +2% stats if you have (and you should) 2/2 iMotW.

It is really only a 8% loss as we now gain +2% stats if you have (and you should) 2/2 iMotW.

I dont have and i dont know why i should. :smile5:

It is really only a 8% loss as we now gain +2% stats if you have (and you should) 2/2 iMotW.Update...according to the math geeks at EJ, the new HotW combined with 2/2 iMotW is a -6.85% sta loss, but we gain +2% str and +2% agi. So, it ain't so bad.

Really, we have way too much sta right now. I'm just not sure if SD will make up for the 6K loss in armor.

I dont have and i dont know why i should. :smile5:The 40% boost to MotW is rather nice party buff (+15 stats over normal MotW). Though if you always run with another Druid, I can see why you may not have it. Of our 40-50 raiders, there are only 3 "active" Druids (2*Feral and 1 Resto). The resto is rarely on, and except in 25-mans, I never am grouped with the other Feral. So, having 2/2 iMotW is nice. And who needs Furor as a tank anyway? It is more of a cat leveling talent and a PvP talent.

have to say i've never bothered with iMOTW either. never saw the need to use points in it.

at the rate Blizz are messing around with druids i may as well leave mine in hibernation and finally start a DK.

have to say i've never bothered with iMOTW either. never saw the need to use points in it.For PvE, you really don't need Furor at all. So, think of 3/5 Furor as a waste of points and 2/2 iMotW as the "required" Tier 1 talent.

You can also think of iMotW as giving everyone in our party an additional uber chest enchant (+15 stats) for free.

yeah I guess you could tlb.

i'm keeping furor for the moment as I keep meaning to start some Wrath pvp for the meta helm and maybe another item or 2.

i'll also probably look at a talent change when 3.1 comes out - assuming we dont get all points reset anyways.....

yeah I guess you could tlb.

i'm keeping furor for the moment as I keep meaning to start some Wrath pvp for the meta helm and maybe another item or 2.

i'll also probably look at a talent change when 3.1 comes out - assuming we dont get all points reset anyways.....

...The 40% boost to MotW is rather nice party buff (+15 stats over normal MotW). Though if you always run with another Druid, I can see why you may not have it....

In naxx 25 i always have a resto-druid with me.
In naxx 10 i dont, but it doesnt make that big of a difference, so i skipped it.

yeah indeed s3R - in my old raiding days i never had it either cos in a 40 man we always had at least 2 resto druids who had it.

i'll see what rubbish, i mean cool new stuff/changes blizz come up with for the final release of 3.1 and maybe look to respec a bit.

i'm still tempted to re-try oomkin and see if i can 'get' that spec cos i just find it so much harder to do dailys etc than in feral

just been reading some other forums and found this posted :

This is listed as new changes on the PTR......

Druid (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Feral

* Maim now lasts 1/2/3/4/5 sec depending on combo points. (Down from 3/4/5/6/7 sec)
* Heart of the Wild now increases stamina in Dire Bear form by 2/4/6/8/10%. (Down from 4/8/12/16/20%)

Restoration

* Lifebloom now let the Druid regains half the cost of the spell when Lifebloom completes its duration or is dispelled.



a nerf to maim as well as hotw.

Yeah.
Druid-PvP nerfed. Druid-Tanking nerfed.
Kitty buffed.

I dont like the fact that we have less pros then contras....
And i really dont understand the fact, why we have DR on stuns in PvP now...
Blizzard just dont wants ferals to be competetive in pvp....

i wonder what nerfs DKs or Huntards will get... let me guess... no nerfs at all....

Yeah.
Druid-PvP nerfed. Druid-Tanking nerfed.
Kitty buffed.

It's not a major patch unless druid tanking gets nerfed.

The kitty buffage is very nice, but a bit worrisome. I'm one of only a handful of druids I know whose primary spec is feral dps. That's partly out of choice, partly out of demand. I'm always one of the top damage producers, and I've always been told "we don't want you as tank (or moonkin, or resto) because we don't want to lose your dps."

Problem is, I can take aggro from almost any tank I've met. Clicking cower is a mandatory part of my rotation. If I'm not running with vigilance, I wait until 4 sunders are up before I engage and even then I have to stop attacking during most fights to avoid getting aggro.

I appreciate the increased dps, but it likely means I'll stop running heroics because it's just going to be a nightmare.

....
Problem is, I can take aggro from almost any tank I've met. Clicking cower is a mandatory part of my rotation. If I'm not running with vigilance, I wait until 4 sunders are up before I engage and even then I have to stop attacking during most fights to avoid getting aggro.
.....

Thats not your fault. It's the tanks fault.
Every decent tank can hold aggro easily on bossfights.

And while raiding, all rogues and hunters push the MT at the beginning.
This is mostly enough to help him built up his rotations.

i'm still tempted to re-try oomkin and see if i can 'get' that spec cos i just find it so much harder to do dailys etc than in feral


Do it! Dailies are an absolute breeze when you can run into an area (say a cave, or frozen lake) and:

Starfall (run around to aggro everything)
Barkskin
Hurricane
....loot 10 corspes and get all your quest items plus some!

Also, when there is heavy traffic, there is no substitutue for moonfire pulls.

hehe Solar - sounds fun but i never found it worked when i tried it before. i guess though that ofc my oomkin gear is average !!!

and thus my dps output was low. i just found i was getting bashed to much and it was painful trying to do anything as oomkin.

i'll take a look at the best oomkin spec gear i have and see my crit/sp/mp5/hit etc and then decide for 3.1

...
Also, when there is heavy traffic, there is no substitutue for moonfire pulls.

Feral-fearie-fire tapps to since 3.0.8. :grin:

And being feral doesnt mean that u cant use moonfire! :thumbup:

Feral-fearie-fire tapps to since 3.0.8. :grin:

And being feral doesnt mean that u cant use moonfire! :thumbup:

Agreed, you can use moonfire, but then you will end up OOM very quickly with all that shifting. Plus if you are like me, there is no room on my bars for caster junk when I am shifted! :nerd:

Also, no cooldown on moonfire....can't chain pull multiple mobs with FFF or I would just go bear and run around aggroing everything in sight! :ohwell:

yeah i find that too many spells and shifting means low mana fast in my feral gear.

i just find i use FFF in kitty most of the time and have to be patient in busy areas - like SP doing SoH dailys - esp the hot and cold one.

I realize that stuff is still up in the air, but the latest Rawr beta 2.2.0b3 includes the 3.1.0 changes. It includes the new glyphs but I don't see the new talents. It shows an 800 dps increase for me. Wish I had checked that before I got the agility DMC, the strength one is 2 DPS more, not that it's enough of a difference to worry about.

Wish I had checked that before I got the agility DMC, the strength one is 2 DPS more, not that it's enough of a difference to worry about.

Ooh that's great to know! I got the strength DMC based on comments from EJ. From what I've been reading agility > str in 3.1, so I was a bit annoyed I made the wrong choice.

Ooh that's great to know! I got the strength DMC based on comments from EJ. From what I've been reading agility > str in 3.1, so I was a bit annoyed I made the wrong choice.

Are we talking kitty or bear?

I guess I was under the understanding that Agi > Str for both until you get ridiculous Crit for kitty (>60%), Agi will always be best for bear.

For cats, pre-3.1 str > agi (because SR boosts AP), from what I've read on EJ, after 3.1 agi ~ str with a slight edge to agi (due to 200% crit bleeds added in 3.1).

subject to change, bla, bla, bla

TLBJ, did you see anything about what affects the DoT crit? Is it based on melee chance to crit?

The reason i ask is: I'm sitting at about 52.**% chance to crit raid buffed as it is right now. My dots tick for an amount based on my AP, right? If that's the case, then roughly every other tick will be critting for a bigger number, im assuming based on my AP. Someone PLEASE tell me if im way off here, since I'm currently gemming for strength now that I've hit the crit numbers i've been looking for.

I don't know for sure, but that is my impression. That your crit at time you applied the DoT is used to determine the crit chance for each of the ticks.

that's just hot... im breathing a little heavy right now :P

Im curious to see my dots crit!!
This will be uge in PvP too.
Cause u dont need to built up combo-points and activate SR for big dot-damage.

i was gonna try to get back into a little pvp but the nerf to maim is a blow :(

The maim nerf is ok. 7 sec is quite overpowered.
It's the added diminishing returns which kill us.

7 sec OP ! never !

jeez how bad was it in BC when i was pvping for first time to never seemingly be not stunned etc by rogues before i died :(

how bad will the DR be though ?

I agree the maim nerf is probably needed, but I still QQ the fact that no one ever considers nerfing fear. Still the one incapicate that you damge through indefinatley, with no DR.

7 sec OP ! never !

jeez how bad was it in BC when i was pvping for first time to never seemingly be not stunned etc by rogues before i died :(
how bad will the DR be though ?

first stun 5 sec, 2nd 2.5 sec 3rd 1sec(or so), 4th immun.
15 sec DR refresh.
If its the normal DR return on things.

I agree the maim nerf is probably needed, but I still QQ the fact that no one ever considers nerfing fear. Still the one incapicate that you damge through indefinatley, with no DR.

Fear has a DR. Trinket out on first(15sec i think), 2nd will last about 7-8 sec, 3rd, 3sec, 4th immun.

first stun 5 sec, 2nd 2.5 sec 3rd 1sec(or so), 4th immun.

are you saying the 2nd stun is always 2.5 sec regardless of combo points or that its a %age reduction based on the first one ?

are you saying the 2nd stun is always 2.5 sec regardless of combo points or that its a %age reduction based on the first one ?

I believe it's a 50% reduction if im correct. (if not correct me plz :D )

I think you are right, 50% sounds correct.

The pain for druids is we have to stack combo points to get the maim off. Other classes have instant incapicitates (or stuns)

Not sure if its just me or not, but if I have 4+ combo points stacked, there is a good chance that I can kill the opponent with a FB rather than trying to stun with Maim.

When I pounce, Rip, Mangle, Maim....most mobs are at 30%-40% Health. Seems more beneficail to just FB and end it, rather than dealing with all the risk of stuns (DR/Trinkets...etc)

...
Not sure if its just me or not, but if I have 4+ combo points stacked, there is a good chance that I can kill the opponent with a FB rather than trying to stun with Maim.
...

This wont work if your oponent has 800+ resilence.
They take a lot less damage.

And what do you do if the oponent is not dead after FB?
With maim u have more time to built up CP again and then finish.
Or switch to bear for a charge-cyclone combo.

This wont work if your oponent has 800+ resilence.
They take a lot less damage.

And what do you do if the oponent is not dead after FB?
With maim u have more time to built up CP again and then finish.
Or switch to bear for a charge-cyclone combo.

Well, can't say I often run into folks with 800+ resil. And if I do, I have far bigger issues to deal with than maim v FB. (like my complete lack of PvP skillz!)

What do I do if they are not dead after FB? The same thing I do if they are not dead after maim...keep hitting. My point being by the time I maim or FB, my energy is dead either way. So tiger's fury is gonna have to happen regardless which I use. I favor burst damage over stun, but as stated above, my pvp skills are "subpar" putting it gently. :(

yeah my skillz in pvp are like yours Solar. I only ever started pvp last summer cos of the eaasy epics it gave me as a non raider.

guess its time to do some more.

Look at this:

Swipe
We are going to take another look at Swipe. Since we are trying to fix some problems where druids are too good at tanking it seems reasonable to also look at cases where they struggle.

Please don't follow this up a dozen threads that say "My class needs compensation for nerfs too!" We generally don't offer compensation for nerfs since they are supposed to be nerfs. But in this case we are trying to realize our goal of having 4 viable MT classes and druid AE threat generation is cumbersome.

Dont know if it is coming with 3.1. But very very very interesting :grin:

edit: my 2nd thought is -> "another change to get more and more brainless-tanking"

edit: my 2nd thought is -> "another change to get more and more brainless-tanking"I agree and have said so in the tanking forum. Swipe works fine now, what else do I need?

The only time I think that swipe fails is due to latency issues. Which compounds the positional requirements of swipe. This happens during the computer "event" in HoS (or is in HoL? I get those confused all the time). The elite mobs come running in and you swipe one, but for some odd reason the other two get past you, so you have to turn around, which means you might lose the first one to healer/dps threat...And it gets worst as the event goes on. I have tanked it, but it would be nice if I had a 15s cooldown AoE "snap" threat generation.

Other than that one scenario, I don't see any issues with swipe. Any one else? I haven't done all of Naxx, so maybe there is something in Naxx???

A similar thing happens sometimes in hVH when the patrol packs come. I swipe the first one (the mob on my screen that appears to be first), but the other 2-3 run by me. I guess I could have missed, but it happens too often to be from a miss. We always recover, but I sort of look stupid at least once in each hVH run. Could be trigger happy AoE DPS??

I have read a bit into it and it seems like they want to remove the need of a target to use swipe.
This change would be awesome. It makes it a little easier but we still have the work of positioning the mobs.

I have read a bit into it and it seems like they want to remove the need of a target to use swipe.I hate it when your target is out of range (say a caster that you stepped back away from, or a shammy/moonkin pushes him back), yet you have 3 mobs in your face, so swipe doesn't land. I guess that would be nice.

yeah agreed tlb. was happening to me last nite.

not good when 2 raid geared mages are aoeing the crap outta everything and my swipes are not landing!

All good points! Any chance GC trolls the grove??? I didn't think so. Anyway, making swipe not need a target would correct most of the issues I have with it.

I would like a non taunt ability that some 360 degree damage though. When you charge in, you never know what position you will be facing.

Or when getting bounced around in the spider wing by the trash, a weak 360 ability to at least allow threat over incoming heals would be appreciated.

In the end it is definatley possible to MT just how it is, and that is true for every tanking class. (except maybe Sarth +3/cant say from personal experience)

I have read a bit into it and it seems like they want to remove the need of a target to use swipe.
This change would be awesome. It makes it a little easier but we still have the work of positioning the mobs.

Random untested idea that came to me while at work:

/targetenemy
/swipe (or /cast swipe whatever)


Something like that? I think if you don't use the [noharm] option it would just target the closest NPC.

Random untested idea that came to me while at work:

/targetenemy
/swipe (or /cast swipe whatever)


Something like that? I think if you don't use the [noharm] option it would just target the closest NPC.


Not a bad thought, except normally even when my primary focus is temporarily out of range, I still want to focus on one mob rather than bouncing around. Also, the more macro savy single target DPSers like to start their attacks with /tar focus, /assist, /cast spam....So if I am changing targets on everyswipe, so are they and for most that could be bad. Debuffs usually stack per cast and changing target will make them angry :)

That could still target an enemy that is not in your front arch, or one that is out of range.

Really, if they just gave us some type of bear slam/stomp that would do 10-15yd AoE threat boost with a 15-20s cooldown, the weird latency and positional issues of swipe would not be an issue.

But frankly, I sort of like the challenge we have today. Too much QQ and class envy in this game.

Also, the more macro savy single target DPSers like to start their attacks with /tar focus, /assist, /cast spam....DPS should never assist the tank. Ever.

DPS should never assist the tank. Ever.

Agreed!

DPS should never assist the tank. Ever.

I have spent years getting them too. This eliminates them selecting targets of their own accord. What is the downside? Even if you tab target (an outdated practice) they are right back on your focus everytime they hit their spam. Its worked wonders for us. I haven't waisted time "marking" a mob in months (except boss fights for explanation to new folks). I can hold threat over 4k DPS in my stam set (which sucks for TPS).

If i tank groups of 5+ i switch target after every maul hit.
so it would be chaos if ppl always go on my target.
then on every target there would be some damage but no focus at all.
Maybe its not that important right now but i (hope) it will be a bit more in ulduar again.
I dont like the fact to run into a group and just brainless AOE it down.

Marking doesn't take time. I have F1-F4 assigned to 4 marks. I usually just mark Skull and some times X.

And I tab target all the time even now. To make sure my two Mauls land on different targets and/or to get a lacerate on a target so RnT actually gets "used" while tanking trash.

Still not sure if RnT is all that great for tanks. But, in 3.1, it will be more or less required since you need 5/5 RnT to get Primal Gore (bleeds crit).

R&T is a must-have for tanks. 20% more damage on Maul is sooo much.

Maybe its not that important right now but i (hope) it will be a bit more in ulduar again.
I dont like the fact to run into a group and just brainless AOE it down.

I guess I agree, in my "fantacy WoW" tanking would require more skill and so would DPS/Healing. In practice though, AoE slamming all trash is just part of the game.

If you are are jumping targets on large mobs 1 of 2 things is going to happen. 1) you are going to fall victim to the "out of range" message and stand there doing nothing, or 2) you are going to be waisting GCD's using lacerate. Plain and simple, swipe > lacerate in threat rotation (on trash).

Yes, one lacerate over 8 secs is more threat than 1 swipe, BUT, 4 swipes (in 8 secs) (+/- 1 due to haste) is far greater threat than lacerate (and it hits a hell of a lot more mobs)

How long is your typical trash pull? If I had to ballpark it, I woudl say ours are 10-20 secs max.

I completely agree that assisting tanks has many potential pitfalls in complex situations, but only in a WoW that does not exist today. Single target, I have haven't come across a person in WoW that can out threat a tank in equal gear, who is well practiced (and therein is where the glory of the assist comes. They either AoE or they are on MY single target).

And everyone else bleeds targets so the lacerate + maul argument is pretty much defunked. (particularily if your melee DPS are always on your target)

How long is your typical trash pull? If I had to ballpark it, I woudl say ours are 10-20 secs max.You play in a world that I do not. No one does AoE DPS and for the most part I can still be #2-3 on DPS even as a tank (in 5-mans).

And besides rogues, who else has a bleed? I think one of the warrior DPS spec does? But we have 2 rogues and no DPS warriors in our guild. Do all rogue specs have a bleed?

You play in a world that I do not. No one does AoE DPS and for the most part I can still be #2-3 on DPS even as a tank.

And besides rogues, who else has a bleed? I think one of the warrior DPS spec does? But we have 2 rogues and no DPS warriors in our guild. Do all rogue specs have a bleed?

Do you run raids (10 or 25) If so, why in the world does your DPS not AoE? Even 5 man, AoE should be a staple in your DPS's rotations (pull depending obviously)

Um, Rogues/Warriors/Ferals would be the three with bleeds that I know of. (I know nothing about pallies/Dk though) Yes, all rogues have a bleed, but I am not sure if all specs/builds use it as a core of their DPS.

If the tank is 2-3 on the damage done/DPS meter, regardless how good the tank is, its because the DPS is underperforming/under geared. The very best tanks on my server (that I know of, gear capped with Sarth+3 downed) do 2k-2.5k DPS consistently over a run. More on trash, less on bosses) By end game the average DPS should be in the 2.5k-5k consistently depending on class etc.

Single target most DPS in 25-man gear can achieve 3k pretty easiliy.

Do you run raids (10 or 25) If so, why in the world does your DPS not AoE? Even 5 man, AoE should be a staple in your DPS's rotations (pull depending obviously)AFAIK, I have never seen our DPS do AoE (though I'm not sure I'd recognize it even if I did see it), except maybe on the little packs of spiders that are obvious AoE targets. I do it once in a while in cat form, but it doesn't seem to be worth the effort. End up out of energy with maybe one mob dead.

If my DPS does do AoE they must be very weak at it because I would expect all of the mobs to go down about the same time, yet the #2 and #3 mobs typically near 70-80% by the time I target them. And that could be from my swipes/mauls.

Single target most DPS in 25-man gear can achieve 3k pretty easiliy.We haven't started 25-mans and 80% have only cleared OS/Vault and 1-2 wings in Naxx (and maybe 2-6 heroics outside of hNexus, hUK or hVH). I have yet to see a 3K DPS from anyone, except in that one DPS fight at the end of the plague wing. So, that doesn't count. But in all fairness, they could be doing 3K DPS and I wouldn't know as I don't run recount and/or WWS. Every once in a while someone will broadcast their recount numbers, but those are so bogus (especially the "total" numbers) that I don't pay much attention to them. Though I know I have never seen 3K. In fact on that last boss in the plague wing, I was #1 on DPS (kitty) and I'm fairly certain I did not reach 3K.

To give you an idea, we literally only single target pulls when there is a single target to kill. aka bosses. The rest is subject to a flurry or blizzards/hurricanes/d&d/....etc. Can't see a thing besides a blazing floor when I am tanking most of it (another reason I would like a 360 threat ability...spell effects are out of control, even when turned down).

Sounds like you guys are still in the learning stages of Naxx and OS. As such AoE would probably be used less often because it does breed it's own heartaches too. When you do get to that point, you are going to have to spam maul/swipe in order to hold all the mobs. Lacerate and to some extent even mangle takes a back seat.

I think if you guys ran WWS reports (combat log meter) you would see that at least a few of your DPS are hitting 3k on single targets. I know meters don't tell the whole story, but once you are ready to make the hard push into the end game etc, they need to be used, if for nothing else, than the fact that they are very educational tools.

Anyway, once you have a wing on farm, I highly reccomend you have your DPS just give you a sec or two for aggro and then AoE it will shave hours off your Naxx run. Literally.

We went from farming Naxx in 5-7 hours (over 2 nights) to easily clearing in 4 hours now (over two nights). Obviously gear improved in that time, but so did our strategies. Many bosses have "quirky" fights that change DPS and effect the meters, but using those quirks to your advantage is part of being a good tank/dps/healer, so I wouldn't discount the numbers the meters show on those either.

We even AoE most of the boss fights that include ads. (the first guy in plaque is a good example. We just stack in the middle of the room and let the fireworks begin. He never makes a second teleport.)

Druid (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Faerie Fire and Faerie Fire (Feral): Now decreases armor of your target by 5%. Has a 5-minute duration, and a 40-second PvP duration.
* Feral Faerie Fire: The damage generated by this ability in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form has been increased substantially.
* Innervate: This spell no longer costs mana.
* Pounce: No longer affected by diminishing returns with other stuns, however, it now shares a diminishing return with Cheap Shot (Rogue).
* Savage Defense: Trainable at level 40 with Dire Bear Form as a prerequisite. When the Druid deals a melee critical strike, they gain a physical damage shield equal to 25% of their attack power. The next hit completely consumes the shield, regardless of how much damage was done. Only active in Bear Form.
* Swipe: The Bear Form and Dire Bear Form version of this ability no longer has a targeting requirement and hits targets behind the druid and to the sides.

Feral

* Predatory Strikes: This talent no longer works when in Moonkin form.
* Survival of the Fittest: Bonus armor reduced to 11/22/33% instead of 22/44/66%.

I don't understand the point of increased damage from FFF. Weird.

I don't understand the point of increased damage from FFF. Weird.

doesn't matter, but imagine killing a rogue just with fearie-fire!
Mine is critting now with over 1k damage. :elfbiggri

lol that's awesome, bloody rogues.

Bears would be getting increased FFF damage so that they have a decent Boss pulling ability and initial aggro. A smart addition designed to compensate for the trigger happy dps who absolutely cannot resist moonfire/judgement/throw weapon/shoot gun while the big bad dragon is being pulled into position.

Currently initial aggro from a bear is rather feeble, initial rage in an encounter likewise miniscule as compared to a 40 yd warrior charge, avenger's shield and whatever DKs use.

Sounds like you guys are still in the learning stages of Naxx and OS.We did our first 25-man naxx run (I wasn't able to go). Most folks have no more than 4-5 10-man runs under their belt. And many haven't done anything past the first two wings.

Here's the WWS Report (http://wowwebstats.com/zvdtn6u2rptpa). Looks like the top 5-6 of the DPS are doing alright. But it drops off quickly from there. Didn't check for AoE....

The 25-man WWS looks pretty good. If you notice your top DPSing folks #1 or #2 damage ability is likely an AOE attack. For example the rogues #2 damage done was "Fan of Knives", and its only behind "swing".

To give you an idea, our top 10 folks are usually +3.5k overall, +2.8k on bosses. But, all of them spam AoE on trash and multi-target boss fights. So those numbers are severly inflated from thier single target DPS which is probably moer in the 2k-2.5k range.

Either way, once your tanks and healers are comfortable with the content, I strongly reccomend the AoE'fest on trash. It makes the clear much much quicker.

I saw that the rogues were using their AoE. I guess that's good.

The one thing I just can't figure out, is when the feral Druid (who is tanking most of the time), does DPS he just does Mangle, SR and FB. And his DPS is great. I've seen other WWS reports in which he is doing nearly 3K DPS. You can see he does it for part of the dance fight. At some point it looks like he starts tanking...

Yet all of the EJ/theorycrafters make it seem like if you don't deal with that insane kitty rotation (SR, rake, rip, mangle, shred, etc.), you DPS will suck.

I wonder if this isn't one of those times in which theorycrafter lose out to Live because the game mechanics required to perform the ideal rotation are insane. And/or not possible on most fights due to other conditions...

I do know that he will be in for a surprise in 3.1 where bleeds are king once again...

Yet all of the EJ/theorycrafters make it seem like if you don't deal with that insane kitty rotation (SR, rake, rip, mangle, shred, etc.), you DPS will suck.

I wonder if this isn't one of those times in which theorycrafter lose out to Live because the game mechanics required to perform the ideal rotation are insane. And/or not possible on most fights due to other conditions...


Well, theorycrafting is always done in a "Steril" evinronment, where other factors (like the floor exploding) are excluded for the benefit of what is the "Best" rotation.

You can definatley put out some admirable DPS just using SR and FB, but a player in the same gear doing the shred/rip....etc will do considerably more.

Also, 3k DPS isn't all that good with that rotation considering its all burst damage. I would assume he sits at 3k DPS, but well below a more consistent 2.5k DPSer in total damage done. The reason for this is he is only hitting the boss with the "Hard" hits and then has significant down time. (Read: Damage per second high, damage per fight low)

In that particular fight, bleeds are especially important to total damage done because there is a good portion of the time that you cannot be actually hitting the boss. (moving, dancing, positioning...etc)

Guys, a quick, basic question on this nerf. As I understand it, druid tanks are taking an armor/stam nerf. Notoriously, on high damage fights (ie Patchwerk) I've been OT because of my larger than life HP pool and 67% Dmg Reduction by armor.

If we're receiving a nerf to both stam and armor, what should I expect my DmG reduction by armor to look like? I'm told it should be a minimum of 64% DR by armor. With the armor nerf, is that going to be possible?

Also, with the rumored stam nerf, how are we supposed to survive a Hateful Strike or two...or more...? I'm not about qqing over changes, but I'm really confused now as to what I need to be stacking in order to still be a viable MT/OT and useful to our group's progression in end game.

The nerf to healers is making that slightly less desirable, but still seems to be a little more inviting considering what bears will be facing.

I won't pretend to understand the math behind the mechanics (which is why most of my posts seem noobish I imagine). But Desbear is a little flustered about it and previous reassurances that we'll still be a very viable and integral part of raid tanking just don't seem...I don't know. I just want to understand how we'll still be able to MT or even OT given the expected changes. (I know it's been addressed in this post, but you guys all talk very technically...and I'm not a really "technically minded" bear.)

Can anyone dumb this all down for me? Should I put on a rogue costume?

you need to go oomkin Des and not worry about tanking anymore

:rolling:

:texla:

I love tanking though. I just need to understand it post-3.1 so I can decide if this bear will stay bear or go tree...or...retire as a farm kitty...

yeah so do i.

but oomkin is really fun and less stressful

question for you TLB

"Marking doesn't take time. I have F1-F4 assigned to 4 marks. I usually just mark Skull and some times X."

can you link your macro for this? would save me (and others) a hell of a lot of time!

can you link your macro for this? would save me (and others) a hell of a lot of time!You don't need a macro to do this, just assign key bindings to skull, etc. on the key binding configuration page.

WTB patch 3.1 !

WTB patch 3.1 !Amen! I'm thinking 14-April is the earliest we will see it. They just added a bunch of stuff this past week, and I don't think all of Uldar has been test (I could be wrong). I did read that the outfitter thingy won't be in the game.

damn, i've read somewhere that Jeff Kaplan has said its already all done.

so what do they still need to do ! we all know it will go wrong and crash the servers wehn they roll it so just get on and release it !

in fact the Blizz downloaded started downloading something more yesterday ?

outfitter not being added ? that's menat to be part of 3.1 ?

i was hoping we'd get it this wed ahead of the long easter break.

in fact the Blizz downloaded started downloading something more yesterday ?Well, maybe it will be released tomorrow (7-April).

Regarding outfitter, Blizzard was going to ship their own version of a wardrobe addon in 3.1, but have since pulled it from the patch. Sort of makes it hard to do dual-specs in the default UI without a wardrobe tool.

Regarding outfitter, Blizzard was going to ship their own version of a wardrobe addon in 3.1, but have since pulled it from the patch. Sort of makes it hard to do dual-specs in the default UI without a wardrobe tool.

Hehe, a druid in WoW without a wardrobe mod....thats just silly!!!

Hehe, a druid in WoW without a wardrobe mod....thats just silly!!!Right, but as a whole. It seems odd give use feature X that more or less requires feature Y, yet they decide at the last minute to pull feature Y.

Let's hope the 3rd party wardrobe addons handle re-specs well. Otherwise, it could be a nightmare.

I did notice that my kitty addon, BadKitty doesn't like it when I change specs. It blows up. I'm sure it is an easy fix, but that's just one addon.

Right, but as a whole. It seems odd give use feature X that more or less requires feature Y, yet they decide at the last minute to pull feature Y.



Best guess....feature "Y" was F'ing up the whole thing. So the options were pull Y, or set back release.

I can't imagine Outfitter or any other wardrobe mod working any different than they do today. If you use the automation (I don't reccomend) the gear change is based on the form you take and not your spec. So Dual spec should have no impact at all on their functionality.

Is Bad Kitty = Squak and Awe for kitties? I don't do enough kitty DPS to warrant a mod for it yet!

Is Bad Kitty = Squak and Awe for kitties?Yes, and bear. You can turn on/off tracking as needed. Other mobs can do the same thing as badkitty, but BadKitty works out of the box, no setup required (other than preferences).

I'm just going to throw this out there...and perhaps this belongs in my Noob Saga thread, but...

<Does not have a Wardrobe Mod>

/blush. I've honestly never needed it. I've always been a tank and haven't ever really had another gear set. However, with the coming of 3.1...I'll probably get one. Skwid will probably dunce cap me if I don't. LOL

*hangs head in shame and sits in a corner*

Even as a bear I had 2 sets (should have had 3), one for trash (more DPS stats) to help hold aggro from hyper DPS and one for bosses (higher avoidance) and a 3rd for max sta (Sarth???). I usually just manually swapped 1-2 pieces to my "boss" set to make my max sta set.

For Kitty I really just have 2 sets, one for raid (hit capped) and one for questing (max AP). For heroic DPS, I start with my raid set and manually swap in a piece or two from my max AP set and use the Mangle idol rather than the shred idol.

With the upcoming changes to thorns (damage dealt will be based on spell power of the caster not the recipient), all Druids should also have a max spell power set to put on when they cast thorns on a tank.

I know, and I hung my head in shame. I just never used the mod...I have pieces I swap out based on the fight we're hitting, but just never installed the mod. Husdruid's is always malfunctioning and I didn't want to deal with it. *shrug*

For Kitty I really just have 2 sets, one for raid (hit capped) and one for questing (max AP). For heroic DPS, I start with my raid set and manually swap in a piece or two from my max AP set and use the Mangle idol rather than the shred idol.

With the upcoming changes to thorns (damage dealt will be based on spell power of the caster not the recipient), all Druids should also have a max spell power set to put on when they cast thorns on a tank.

I think u are going way to far with your equips. :wink:
Different Raid-Kitty and Quest-Kitty-Gear?
Max-Spellpower-Gear for thorns.

I wish i had your room for my equipements. :biggrin:

I'm just going to throw this out there...and perhaps this belongs in my Noob Saga thread, but...

<Does not have a Wardrobe Mod>

/blush. I've honestly never needed it. I've always been a tank and haven't ever really had another gear set. However, with the coming of 3.1...I'll probably get one. Skwid will probably dunce cap me if I don't. LOL

*hangs head in shame and sits in a corner*

*Hands over a nice pointy dunce cap to Des* :wink:

I'm very surprised you did not have one Des. i could not have survived without one.

Even back in the days of when i raided 40 mans i needed one to switch fast between healing and dps/bear.

ie in BWL i used to heal most of it but would be tanking in Phase 1 (iirc) at Nefarion on the big dragon things....so i actually had a specific set for that - giving me a bit of bear gear versus some healing gear for the later phases when i went back to healing. Same with MC when i'd do some dps as a kitty on trash then back to my full heal set for bosses...


I honestly dont mind if they withhold the outfitter mod from 3.1 just as they get a bloody move on and release 3.1 with dual specs /grrrrrrr /roar

I think u are going way to far with your equips. :wink:
Different Raid-Kitty and Quest-Kitty-Gear?
Max-Spellpower-Gear for thorns.

I wish i had your room for my equipements. :biggrin:

I have (keep with me)

1) Bear - Trash = High TPS / Avoidance
2) Bear - Boss = Mix of Stam / Avoidance
3) Bear - Stam = Uber Stam (Sarth etc)
4) Kitty - Raid = Hit Capped (also serves as my Heroic Bear Gear, otherwise go rage starved)
5) Boomkin - Hit Cap
6) Resto - Spirit Stacked
7) Herbing - Haste Stacked, pick a flower in ~4 secs :)

8) I have several PvP sets too, but they stay in the bank.

...I have all +20 slot bags and only room in my backpack for non-gear.

Many of these sets share items with each other, but there is no way I could manage them without Outfitter. May seem excessive, but to quote a disney movie "Luck favors the prepared"! Have the right gear for the right encounter = Win.

Also, even as feral I like to keep my +SP set close for "Near Wipes". 10-15 bodies on the floor and folks need Rez's, its a lot speedier if the bear slaps on +SP gear and Innervates self then starts helping rez. No Incombat advantage, just a time saver and curtiousy to those who keep me alive! :flipbg:

Solar you double-poster!!! tztztz ^^

Solar you double-poster!!! tztztz ^^

Seemed more appropriate in this post after I put it in the other!

I wish i had your room for my equipements. :biggrin:I carry 4.5 sets of gear on me at all times. I could probably thin it out a bit now that I know I'll probably never do resto (or probably boomkin). And just make a single SP kit.

The quest set is sort of funny now for 2 reasons. First my raid set is so nice I'd destroy any quest mob with it in a flash. Second, I haven't done a quest in 2+ months. The last quest I did was to unlock the EB stuff so I could get their tabard. Still not exalted with them as I haven't run a 5-man in some time either.

Solar you double-poster!!! tztztz ^^
yeah i thought my eyes we playing up !

Solar is just after a higher post count :lmao:



Second, I haven't done a quest in 2+ months. The last quest I did was to unlock the EB stuff so I could get their tabard. Still not exalted with them as I haven't run a 5-man in some time either.

you dont run any dailys then tlb ?

well tonite i'll finally get Kirin exalted and that will complete the set of exalted Wrym / Kaluak / Argent Crusade and Knights.

i've done nothing at all ever with Oracles/Frenzy.

*quietly places Dunce cap on her head*

Khel, I'm so jealous!

And, tbh, I've never really "needed" alternative sets of gear. The guild I used to be in was set. We had a bunch of healers, a bunch of DPS and very few tanks. So, anytime we did anything I always was tank. If I had to DPS, like I said, I'd swap out the few kitty pieces I had and go from there. All my gear was in the same spot and all I had to do was open the bag and click click click- Bam! I'm a kitty now, RAWR!

I'm gonna go post a n00b story...

you dont run any dailys then tlb ?Nope. Not a one. In fact, I really don't have a clue where the dailies are even located. Other than those in GH that I passed while leveling. Those are all PvP dailies, so I know I'd never do those...

I log in, raid, log out. Back when I didn't raid as much (not that I raid 247 now), I'd log in, do 5-mans, log out.

Unless I find a good compromise on a build, I'm not sure I'll be running 5-mans much. Which is sort of sad, because I love them.

Edit: If any of you know of a site that lists all of the dailies, let me know. Maybe I'll run a few at some point. Though I have 100+ "normal" quests left to do in last two zones. So, it is not like I'm hurting for quest material to run.

Try: This site (http://www.wow-pro.com/book/export/html/2075)

It seems like a pretty complete list and was given to me by a guild mate so I could start grinding dailies. /shrug

I rather enjoy trying to get the two daily dungeons in (normally doing both on heroic) at night, but lately we've only been hitting one of them each day. Hope that helps TLB.

Nope. Not a one. {...}

I log in, raid, log out. Back when I didn't raid as much (not that I raid 247 now), I'd log in, do 5-mans, log out.



Lol! I am the same way! I did the SoH grind on my main (tbh, I bought about 1k worth of Relics in there too) and that was enough to remind me that daily's suck!

I do my JC daily occasionally for the easy money. And technically I do the WG dailies on at least one of my toons (just cause I <3 WG)

As far as I am concerned, quests are a neccisarry evil of leveling. Ding 80, no more quests!

I have more than enough Raid ID's to eat up my WoW time with x2 80's. I am also leveling my mage again, in my spare time, so that will be way way more raids than I can possibly squeeze in without signing divorce papers!

well i got the Northrend Vanguard achievement for getting exalted with a number of the Wrath factions....SoH / Kirin etc last nite - not that i knew there was an achievement until it flashed up ! lol

i've also had the achievement for doing 1000 Daily Quests for sometime now ! i guess i do 10 a day and often 15+

as a non raider etc they are easy to do when i have a few mins spare.

tend to always do a bunch in IceCrown. Them the Wyrmrest one at the temple. perhaps a few for SoH.

Can't wait to get home and get the Dual spec started - also wondering how far the tanking nerf is going to hurt me.

I'm really interested in hearing what you all have to say regarding the new changes to bear form.

And...has anyone already gone to Ulduar? (I'm not geared well enough for it, but even if I was...we had world server issues constantly last night. I didn't want to get booted and have my druid sitting on some boss's lap tomorrow when I logged in hehe)

I only saw my SD proc once in an entire BC Heroic instance. (We wanted to try it out someplace easier, so we could make sure we were going to survive lol). It popped on the very first trash pull there, and I didn't see it at all after that.

I'm guessing I need a lot more "kitty" type gear/enchants to get more use from SD?

Also, I ended up giving up OOC to pick up Primal Gore, but otherwise kept my spec the same as it was previously. So a 0/61/10 build right now. I figured the extra chance for something to crit might help out with SD, and now I want to experiment with throwing Lacerate back into the old tanking rotation on a more regular basis to see if that helps.

I'm looking for a critique on the build, gear suggestions, rotations, gem/chant recommendations... anything really. The new bear bubble seems like it could be fun to play with. >=)

Well, I have another post that has the numbers of how the bear nerf affected me, but the bubble proc'd a lot more than you noticed. It drops as soon as you are hit, by any amount. So it is only up for a split second. You will only notice it if you happen to proc it with a killing blow and there are no other mobs aggro'd.

We are trying Ulduar tonight, so I can let you know how epic fail that goes! Good chance for Noob stories out of this run. Its been a long time since we went into a boss fight not knowing really, any strategy (assuming we get by the trash).

But staring at my combat log the entire time, it only hit once. Of course, our instance server went down very soon after the first leg, so I can't say whether or not everything was being reported correctly there. It seems some of my out of date addons wreaked a whole lot of havoc on the old game last night, including chat and reporting interface so, that may have been it. I'll have to keep a closer eye out tonight.

I can't wait to hear how Ulduar goes tonight, Solar! I'll be watching for updates tomorrow!