View Full Forums : How long till the Rest Idea is removed...
Feldaran
04-15-2004, 12:16 AM
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-4-13-04.shtml#reststate
One of the worst idea's in a MMORPG I've ever heard, SWG's was bad enough, but to have to sit for HOURS?
Sure, this might curb power gamers, but not much, so they have to sit in an inn for 4 hours, but they'll still play and KILL enough to outstrip everyone in the level race.
It appears its based on how fast you kill... so getting into a good group... well, means rest time comes faster. And I can't wait to hear "ahh crap, I'm only getting 50% xp now, see you guys later" and there went your healer....
Tiane
04-15-2004, 02:48 AM
Well.. that idea's been kicking around in various forms for years. Havent seen it actually applied in such a high profile game before. Unsure how it'll affect the health of the game, although it's unlikely to affect me personally as I very seldom play for long stretches at a time anymore.
Kerech
04-15-2004, 05:25 AM
I don't see where it says how long it takes to go from well rested down to fatigued. I'm guessing it's longer than the 8 hours it takes to rest back up?
BGrifter
04-15-2004, 08:35 AM
Strikes me as a bit counterproductive adding measures to discourage people from playing the game for long stretches of time. (hell, anything that discourages people from playing the game on any level is a bad idea) Maybe if it's implemented in a ridiculously limited way (takes 8+ hours to become fatigued) in an effort to prevent people from playing 72 straight hours power levelling it could be passably acceptable, but if they were to do that, why bother implementing the system at all?
One of my least favorite memories of old RPGs would be the Ultima series "You cannot sleep here" routine, trying to find a safe spot to sleep often took forever, trying to find an inn a huge pain in the arse. Replicating that experience in a MMORPG just strikes me as a bad idea all around.
On the bright side, so far in beta testing Blizzard seem to have been very open to heavily changing or outright discarding things they players have determined to be 'brave attempts but bad ideas in practice'. I can't imagine this will last in it's current form.
Yaladdar
04-15-2004, 09:02 AM
seems ok to me, they are talking about resting from exausted to well-rested take 8 hours, but getting from well-rested to exhausted might take 16 hours of killing then, which is plenty enough.
quinalla
04-15-2004, 10:28 AM
It will be interesting to see what testers have to say once they have tested it and I imagine it will at least be tweaked before going live. The few that have gotten into the game say about 3 hours before your exp drops to the next level, but they didn't clarify if that was 3 hours of straight mob killing or just normal playing, though my guess is normal playing.
First of all, you don't have to be online to "rest", so that is good since it is currently a long amount of time. Also, it only affects mob exp, not quest, so it looks like they are trying to encourage people to do more quests and discourage people from just killing mobs. It will also make inns into meeting places, which isn't really necessary since players always make their own meeting places anyway, but it is nice so that folks are actually using an inn. It is a nice idea for people to settle down in a town after a hard day of adventuring, I always did this myself in EQ since being a druid I would just port back to town, and since everyone will have a port-to-home stone for WoW, it might actually turn out to be quite nice.
On the downside, this may "punish" people who like to play for long stretches or as people on the beta board have pointed out, those who log on several hours before their friends and then don't get as much exp from mobs.
Regardless, it is hard to judge until we actually see what happens, but I don't think it is the worst idea ever and beta is the time to test these things. If it turns out to not work as they intend, then I am sure they will change it or take it out.
Katnips
04-15-2004, 12:05 PM
I like this idea myself. It will take an otherwise useless piece of landscape, the tavern and inn, and turn it into a useful meeting and socializing venue. Storytellers and poets can stand around doing performances. Roleplayers can have a great place to meet and socialize while resting. It pushes people towards questing, not camping.
I believe the rest states only go down if you are actively killing mobs. Just standing around somewhere will not lower your fatigue. Unless people plan to play 24/7 or only sleep four hours a day, they can use the Hearthstone to teleport back to an inn and rest while logged off while they physically sleep in the real world.
Panamah
04-15-2004, 12:06 PM
Actually, it seems like a fairly clever idea to get people to be a little more moderate in their play time. I assume that you "rest" while offline too?
I like this idea MUCH better than the way SOE does it. They add in-game time-sinks where you have to repeat the same activity over and over to moderate your progress.
Then, from the stand point of costs of running the game, this would really help ensure that people don't run your costs way up by staying online 24/7 and it'll help them keep the monthly fee reasonable.
I see a lot of advantage, at least for non-power gamers like myself.
quinalla
04-15-2004, 01:28 PM
Actually, it seems like a fairly clever idea to get people to be a little more moderate in their play time. I assume that you "rest" while offline too?
Yes, according to the patch message you can rest while offline. From what I have heard so far, it sounds like what this will most change is where people log out, now pretty much everyone will log out in an inn. The other change is that those looking for the most efficient leveling will mix in more quests into their playtime, though I think most people already do this, though what do I know, I am not in beta :o
I believe the rest states only go down if you are actively killing mobs. Just standing around somewhere will not lower your fatigue.
According to the beta testers and possibly the patch message (they can sometimes be hard to interpret) your fatigue goes up only from mob killing and is based on the amount of experience gained. Not based on time or damage taken like other games. I am curious to see what happens with this.
Megadwen
04-15-2004, 02:18 PM
i remember playing a game (mitsirugi?) where you were a ninja and you had to sleep after a certain amount of time, it added a neat realism to the game. but while you slept the time was fast forwarded so one time i wanted to test it and stayed up as long as he could so he just collapsed in the middle of a yard.
good idea for a console game, bad for an mmorpg.
Feldaran
04-15-2004, 02:54 PM
Its not broken, its working as intended. It always takes 8 hours to become fully rested. The 8 hours is meant to match your real world time sleeping, not a mechanism to min/max to eek out the most experience out of the system.
-Eno
Heh, fantastic. Now, if you are "rested", and want to get to "well rested", you HAVE to log out, at an Inn, for 8 hours straight. No more, no less. In other words, you have to rest 8 hours, ALWAYS to get to max "rest". You can't rest 4 hours. It has to be 8.
Stupid.
Interesting idea. You should attempt to read thread about it on the beta boards for WoW. The bnet kiddies are out in force and whining at max volume. I'll never understand people's insane desire to stand in one spot killing the same mobs that spawn for ten hours a day. Especially in a game like WoW, where the focus is all about the quests.
From waht I understand, you rest both online and offline. It doesn't have to be for eight hours straight. For example, say you log on and play for three or four hours and you go from being rested to normal. Rest in the inn (online or offline) for a few hours while you work, go to class, do some chores around the house or something, and when you come back you're rested or maybe even well rested.
--Guards in Stormwind now provide directions for those who ask. (Coming soon to all cities.)
Cool. I'm glad they're including that tidbit. Just hope they put it in the manual and a tutorial or else it'll be one of those things that someone who's played for five years learns by accident. Reading further into the patch message proves WoW knows how to make guild creation much easier. It's handled via npc's and an in-game guild charter.
Can't wait for WoW. My only worry is what the other people in the game will be like. Considering what bnet is like, I hope the ignore list is rather long or limitless.
Feldaran
04-15-2004, 03:34 PM
They clarified it a bit Aly, it requires 8 hours of rest, continuous, to get to Well Rested from any rest state in an inn. The best you can get outside of an inn is rested. Coupled with the fact you can no longer use quest xp to buy skill points, and the doubling of xp requirements (at least at the levels people are playing so far), and well, that's a massive BRAKE to leveling for everyone. Their way of admitting they don't have enough content.
Its taking non-power gamers around 3 hours to go from Well Rested to Rested, and that's far too short to take a 50% cut in xp.
And, now, concentrating on questing can "gimp" your character, as you won't have enough skill points for your level. LOL.
Edit: Clarification: 8 hour continuous means, you can't kill a single thing. If you kill one creature, it resets back to needing 8 hours.
Megadwen
04-15-2004, 04:35 PM
I'll never understand people's insane desire to stand in one spot killing the same mobs that spawn for ten hours a day
you don't have to understand it. if people want to do it they should be able to *shrug*
Panamah
04-15-2004, 04:58 PM
So if Rested is 50 and Well Rested is 100, it'll take you 8 hours to reach 100 from 50?
And if you're at 75 it'll also take you 8 hour?
And if you're at 99 it'll take you 8 hours to reach 100?
What if you're at 1?
Just trying to quanitfy this for myself.
I think 3 hours is a bit short. Personally, I'd like a good playing session to be 4 hours long. I can't imagine I'd play more than that in one go any longer.
Silkarn
04-15-2004, 05:10 PM
Few points to clarify,
1. Fatiuge is NOT based on time, it is based on EXP. Thus you can go from Well rested - rested in about 3 hours.
2. It always takes 8 hours to become well rested, during that 8 hours you can not leave the Inn, period, if you do the timer is reset.
3. Depending on your poing of view there is a EXP penalty for not being well rested. Exp to level was bumped up 76% to 176% from last push. At Well rested you earn 200% of past exp, at rested you earn 150%.
Personally I am against the idea, it appears to me to be an attempt to control peoples play styles, something I find extremely distasteful.
you don't have to understand it. if people want to do it they should be able to *shrug*
It should not be the optimal way to play however. Frell that levelgrind crap. I like the rest states idea. It does stop the camping. It promotes questing and socializing. Sitting in one spot killing the same mobs over and over should never be more efficient than questing.
Silkarn
04-15-2004, 06:00 PM
From what I understand straight grinding never was the "ideal" way to level in WoW. The exp is 2nd to Quest Exp and always has been. Leading me to the question of why was the rest idea needed?
Honestly I don't feel that rest does promote questing or socializing, if I am at the point I am "rested" vs "well rested" I mine as well log out, I cant do quests, unless it is entirely inside the inn, otherwise my timer resets. I can chat at any time with anyone anywhere even in combat. I don't "believe" that I can go to well rested by not being in an Inn, I can go to a state of "normal" just sitting around but then I would be have an exp penalty on me really.
Again I think its poor implementation of a poor idea.
Megadwen
04-15-2004, 06:37 PM
It should not be the optimal way to play however. Frell that levelgrind crap. I like the rest states idea. It does stop the camping. It promotes questing and socializing. Sitting in one spot killing the same mobs over and over should never be more efficient than questing.
there should be no optimal way to play imo. personally, i hate questing. just cant' get into it. maybe WoW quests will be a lot better then EQ ones. the ones where you have to "camp" mobs for a specific drop. often times getting little or no experience while doing so. if they put in a lot of quests. i see this as actually increasing the camping, trying to get a certain item or perform a certain objective.
mainly i'm just trying to get the point across to you that it doesn't matter to me that you like questing more. an mmorpg should have more then one main element of enjoyment, that way everyone is happy.
Kireiina
04-15-2004, 07:16 PM
AFAIK the optimum XP in the beta was to get some buddies, find an instanced dungeon with respawn, and camp the mobs till you fell asleep. This was significantly better than quest XP because there's very little downtime. As such anyone who wanted to optimize their XP per hour would never quest, whereas blizzard wanted quests rather than XP to be the focus.
This mechanism works to balance that. It says you can only get so much mob kill XP per game session. This makes questing, which involves XP other than kill XP and involves less killing per time, more competitive.
It's a good change. This might be the first game were camping a spawn of mobs is not the best XP.
Silkarn
04-15-2004, 07:36 PM
Boot people from the instance if its not a raid instance... An camping mobs wsa never the best exp anyway, questing has always been said to be the best exp in WoW. And if quest rewards are good enough they will be competitive anyway, its all about balance, and not taking the easy way out by making artifical restrictions.
Kireiina
04-15-2004, 07:54 PM
The plan was for questing to be the best XP. In the previous push I believe it wasn't, thus the emergence of this mechanism.
Silkarn
04-15-2004, 08:00 PM
then retune quest exp in relation to grind exp... Without artificail modifiers that directly interfere with indvidual play styles.
Crimson13
04-15-2004, 08:47 PM
i like the idea of the rest system, mostly due to it's social benefits, ie, having everyone going to an inn etc. I'm not much in favour of them limiting someone's playstyle, and powergamers getting way ahead of me in level never really bothered me unless they griefed once they got up there :)
Hopefully the brats on the forums will settle down and put in some good playtesting and good constructive suggestions to blizzard and blizzard (not any one player demographic) will tweak the system so it works as intended while still being acceptable to the nuts that play 20+ hours straight (which i have done but not often)
Tiane
04-15-2004, 09:50 PM
The more I think about it, the more I like that they are trying this. As Pana said there are a lot of advantages. Not the least of which is limiting the MMOG Addicition which has gotten EQ and other games in trouble, and it shows a sign of social responsibility on Blizzard's part that they are willing to endure the criticism of basically making it non-optimal to let people grind xp for long stretches of time.
8 hours flat rest time is too long though. I'd change it to 6 hours of rest time, and tweak the fatigue rate to be about 4 hours from WellRested to Rested. But the fact that it is a flat set length of time is interesting, and a good idea.
I think Blizzard realizes that the Bnet kiddies are *not* going to be the primary subscribers to their game and is willing to endure the heat from these controversial ideas. The bnetters will provide huge sales and startup subscriptions, but long term players will be older and more casual gamers, with jobs and more limited playtime, which is exactly the same group of people that provide most of EQ's income.
Panamah
04-15-2004, 10:11 PM
I see another possible good thing from this... it will foil people trying to make money off the game. If you can't have a team of high school kids operating your money machine for you 24/7 it'll slow you down some. At least, until they can level up their own farming crew.
Actually... it won't slow them down on farming items, it'll slow them down power leveling toons to sell. I'd like to see it become more and more difficult for you to kill stuff after 4 hours. /ducks the rotten tomatoes and heads of cabbage being chucked at her
King Burgundy
04-15-2004, 11:06 PM
Since I haven't seen it mentioned... One of the primary reasons given for this change was actually as a boon to casual gamers. Casual gamers were still complaining that it took too long to level, and they didn't want to increase general levelling speed. A true "casual gamer" who maybe only puts in 2-3 hours a day tops is always going to be earning the bonus 200% well rested experience reward for every hour that they play. Thus, they are going to be levelling faster in their time played.
The "normal" player will not really be "punished" for this in theory, since if you play for 4-6 hours you will still be in the Well Rested/Rested mode for your entire play session(200%/150%) and it will still average out to be about the same or better exp than it was before the change.
What Blizzard failed to take into account is that people don't see things that way. "Well Rested" is now viewed as optimal experience, and so people like Feldaran(No offense intended here btw) will feel punished anytime they aren't earning the full 200% well rested experience.
I personally haven't formed a real opinion on this yet, but I *do* think it is a fascinating concept. It has the potential to affect me, definitely, since when I am really deeply involved in a game I might play for 8-10 hours on a weekend. My options then will either be to A)Grin and bear it each time I fall to a reduced exp state. B)Level 2 or 3 different characters at once, putting one to sleep each time they hit a lower rest state and switching to the next. C)Doing trades and other non xp type stuff once I hit a lower rest state.
If they make the timer for going from exhausted to fatigued a stair step timer, it'd be great. Two hours in the inn takes you one step up the rest state. That allows people to log on in the morning, goof around solo some, group some, quest some. Log out for a bit and then log back in slightly rested and group with their friends who only play in the evenings.
Feldaran
04-16-2004, 03:34 AM
BTW, they nerfed quest xp being able to purchase skills. So if you quest too much, you gimp your character. LOL. Blizzard giveth, and Blizzard taketh away.
Now Kat said you can "un screw" your gimped character later on, as being at the xp cap doesn't stop you from gaining skill points, but I am sure Mr. Casual doesn't like that idea. So, its still "the grind" that is the optimal way to level, as you can buy lots more skills (which are a big thing). And, btw, crafting skills use those skill points, so Mr. Powergamer, will also have the best and quickest to max skill level crafter. Another blow to Mr. Casual. And since there is no cap, every single character can sooner or later become "grand master" in every skill, including trade skills, yet another blow to Mr. Casual Tradeskiller.
They've admitted they want to slow down the power levelers (I am not really a power leveler, I start drooling on my keyboard after about an hour of grinding). I just hate the idea. I hate the idea of having to always run back to my favorite dungeon from some distant inn every time I log in. I put in a few hours a night raiding, almost never xp anymore. If I didn't raid (and I only raid to /gasp chat/socialize with friends LOL), I wouldn't really be touched by this, unless I was sick or something and had all day to play (and even then, my mind couldn't take it). Its just the idea that they are admitting "We don't have enough high end content. We are going to pull a plane of time number on ya'll and hope we finish it before you guys get to it." irks the heck out of me.
Remember: Inn's aren't going to be a "social" place, people will go there and log off, or AFK for 8 hours. See SWG for examples of this. Cantina's were the land of the AFK. Enforced AFK time in SWG, in WoW, its enforced logged out time.
And, powergamers won't be stopped, instead, they'll have 2 or 3 uber characters per account instead of 1. Play for 3 hours, rest that char, log in alt #1, play 3 hours, rest that char, log in alt #2, play 2-3 hours, log in main, repeat. Perpetually 200% xp, and no real downtime. Sure it will slow them down a little bit, but then, why should anyone CARE. Its like being jealous of someone in a BMW while you are driving a civic. Should that person be forced to drive a civic too, because its not fair they have a BMW?
I hate socialism GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rahjeir
04-16-2004, 04:04 AM
I Went from lvl 1 to lvl 7 1/2 before I dropped down from "Well Rested" To "Rested". Quest XP doesn't affect your "rest" status. Quest XP does effect your skill point xp. Quest Xp does count in the toward leveling.
Just because Quest XP doesn't give you any skill points how is this "gimping" a persons char? Hell, in EQ you got maybe 1 point of XP if you was lucky for a quest. I've done quests in wow giving me 1350xp. And low level quest might I add. There are alot harder ones out there. Questers still gain xp and levels. Which DO help your char. You do become stronger just by leveling and not spending one skill point.
But will your skill point xp really hurt all that much? I'm trying to recall, it's late and my brain is shuting down. You get one Skill point per 600xp. 600 REAL xp. Meaning this. Mob A, 60xp + "Well Rested" = 120xp. Only the first 60xp counts toward skill points. Which means it doesn't matted if your rested or not. If you want skill points go earn them.
I will agree the "478 Mins" what it says in game is alittle too long to go from "Rested" To "Well Rested". However the idea of it isn't all that bad. Maybe just tone down the downtime.
I go sleep now, and my mouse finger is killing me. :p
Feldaran
04-16-2004, 04:20 AM
Well you have to understand some on the b.net forums are all about quest quest quest. They get most of their xp from quests. And while you do gain power from just leveling, you won't be *as* powerful as someone who did no quests. And we all know how THAT goes. Gimped people get no groups ;).
The idea is horrible. Its a lame attempt at slowing people down. Its obvious they are going to pull a SWG/EQ and ship with no end game in the game. Make people go back to inns to log off == added time of travel from the inn to the xp spot, slowing them down that much more.
Also, groups will collapse more frequently now: "Ahh heck guys, I'm down to normal xp, gonna camp to my alt #1, see ya". What fun. And you know that's going to happen.
Rahjeir
04-16-2004, 04:35 AM
You still earn skill points at the same rate. "Power Gamers" Will want all the skill points they can get their hands, just a thought. If you want to do any type of tradeskills you'll want as many skill points you can get your hands on.
MMORPG's don't have ends. That's the whole design. MMORPG's keep adding content as money flows in. From a company stand point, release up to a certain level, then build new content as that content is being beat. I highly doubt you will ever see a MMORPG has content from 1 to 140 in it's first release.
As to how much content WoW will have when it's released is anyones guess. The game is still in the building stages. Already as anyone can read from the patch text, a good deal of content is already there. And they are still working on the game.
Katnips
04-16-2004, 09:01 AM
Skill points are not as important to being a more powerful character. They give you more options. A level 30 paladin with 100 skill points is just as powerful as a level 30 paladin with 400 skill points. The 400 sp paladin has more options. Reading the beta boards, Kat also said you would gain skill points at a reasonable rate to buy the basic skills you want, even if most of your xp comes from questing. If you want more, kill random monsters as you travel from place to place.
quinalla
04-16-2004, 10:31 AM
Yes, honestly the "skill points from mob exp only" is the change I am more concerned about. I hope they clarify that better, for now it sounds like infinite skill points can be gained, which would mean you can get every skill and tradeskill, unless there is a cap on those somehow. Hopefully they will clarify this once people settle down about the rest issue. What I don't understand about that change is why all exp doesn't count towards it, but I am not really worried much, there is still plenty of beta time left.
And if you haven't seen it yet, in this thread Blizzard explains their reasoning for the rest addition: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=23151&P=1&ReplyCount=129#post23151
There are 3 posts from Blizzard, all on the first page.
Feldaran
04-16-2004, 02:49 PM
There is no cap to skill points. Everyone can become grand master in every skill available to them if they have the desire to. Including all the tradeskills.
Feldaran
04-16-2004, 02:58 PM
People here seem to put a lot of faith into what a CSR says. Hehehe, you think things change from one company to the next? Absor, Abashi, Kat.... its all the same.
I remember them saying you can't gimp your character. Well, now you can. Sure you can later "unscrew" it (her words not mine), but still...
Panamah
04-16-2004, 03:49 PM
And, powergamers won't be stopped, instead, they'll have 2 or 3 uber characters per account instead of 1. Play for 3 hours, rest that char, log in alt #1, play 3 hours, rest that char, log in alt #2, play 2-3 hours, log in main, repeat. Perpetually 200% xp, and no real downtime. Sure it will slow them down a little bit, but then, why should anyone CARE. Its like being jealous of someone in a BMW while you are driving a civic. Should that person be forced to drive a civic too, because its not fair they have a BMW?
I hate socialism GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It isn't socialism and I don't think most casual players care how fast powergamers level up. I think its the game company that cares. They don't want the powergamers to run out of content too soon. And there's probably a financial incentive here as well. The longer you keep the powergamer from running out of content, the longer they'll play.
But if you apply powergamer rules to people playing much less, you'll just frustrate them and they'll stop playing. So, give extra experience to casual players and normal experience to those who play more. It is IMHO a much, much better idea than SOE's treatment of making powergamers and casuals try to fit into the powergamer model of play.
Like you said, the powergamer can work on 3 characters at a time. /shrug Doesn't bother me if they end up with 3 very high level characters.
Feldaran
04-16-2004, 05:46 PM
Then why not just come out and say "You can only play your characters 3 hours a day", and be done with it? That's what it is. Gotta be fair to the casual after all. I'm mostly a casual myself, and I don't need the game system to be designed to be *fair* to me.
Its a damn game, it should be fun to play however you want to play it, not artificially enforced styles of gaming.
Panamah
04-16-2004, 06:41 PM
Heh... you're a glass half empty kind of guy, aren't you? Rather than say, "Hey cool, the first 3 hours I play each day, I get 200% experience", you say, "Well damn, I only get 200% experience for 3 hours! After that I'm penalized for playing by only getting 100%!"
If you want a game like EQ where SOE made everything extremely slow and tedious just to slow down the power-gamers, then well... there's always EQ. Not every game that gets released is going to cater to powergamers.
Would you be happier if they instead of making 3 hours a day of experience at 200% and then the next 3 at 100%, that they'd make it all 100? Personally I don't care, as long as they don't make it an unreasonable experience for me to try to advance in the game based up the extremes of powergamers.
I wouldn't mind if I was paid double the first 3 hours a day I work, in RL. Kind of makes sense, I'm fresher and my mind is working at top efficiency.
Personally, I won't play another game that did what SOE did with the stupid mindless time sinks just to slow down people who play long hours. I got better things to do in life other than mindless, repetitive game crap that really isn't fun and doesn't add anything to the game experience.
BGrifter
04-16-2004, 08:11 PM
Heh... you're a glass half empty kind of guy, aren't you? Rather than say, "Hey cool, the first 3 hours I play each day, I get 200% experience", you say, "Well damn, I only get 200% experience for 3 hours! After that I'm penalized for playing by only getting 100%!"
If that were the system i'd imagine there would be less complaints (although still some), from how it's being described on websites you start at 200% experience when you log in, and drop down to 25% of normal experience after three hours. I'm ok with a short term bonus when you first log in to experience to help "casual" gamers along, but a penalty that harsh to people who like to play in lengthy stints just seems like a bad idea.
I'd consider myself to be a fairly "casual" gamer, in EQ I get to raid two nights a week (Tuesday/Wednesday) and VERY rarely when my guild raids past midnight CST as I work an evening shift. Should be about the same in WoW, two nights a week of serious gaming with the occasional hour here and there thru the week. Forcing me to limit my play time to a couple hours a night on my two days off will severely hamper my ability to progress.
Silkarn
04-16-2004, 08:52 PM
I was thinking
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yea I know me thinking = bad... Going on
Why does Rest exist? It doesnt make sense on a logical standpoint.
1. People in Beta were complaining that leveling was to fast, up until just before this push. Blizzard even acknowledges this.
2. Blizzard states in the "offical" reasoning that rest is in part an effort to help the casual gamer. See below...
Quote:
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Why was Rest State added:
1) Increase some sense of realism and role playing in the game by incorporating the concept of Inns and characters sleeping
2) To try to balance the speed at which various play styles level in the game. Even though WOW has a faster level curve than many games, we found that casual players were still feeling the "grind" in later levels. We didn't want to make the level curve even easier, since many other players would zoom through the game too fast.
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If people are going to fast, then who is complaining about the "grind" and WHY add in a mechanism to increase the pace at which people level, after all the math all works out to help the majority of people level faster.
My second question is this? If these "casual" players are feeling such a grind at 30, what is Blizzard going to do when they hit 40 or 50 or 60?
I admire the willingness to try something new, and to make quests the major exp fountain, but please there has to be a better way.
From Blizzard's point of view... they should just tell all the powergamers, tuff drek. Sod off. Or whatever else they want to come up with. Powergamers ruin the game. Just look at EQ. Blizzard is trying to keep away from forcing a grind like EQ, so they're putting in several enticements and deterrents that will prod people into questing more and grinding less.
People can still vegetate in front of the computer pushing the same buttons over and over on the same mobs... they just don't get rewarded for it. Efficiency goes way down after a long period of time. Which is good. It deters people away from grinding. It makes it less efficient than questing. And Blizzard has every right to tell people how to play. It is there game after all.
If they want you to quest, you'll quest or you won't play. I really doubt they're worried about losing powergaming customers over these issues. Powergamers use up more resources and could end up costing Blizzard money, whereas casual gamers log on less and infrequently, using up less bandwidth, but because of the rest states, xp bonuses, and great quest rewards, the casual gamers still see meaningful advances in the game.
Hardcore power gamers should never be the focus of the game design and contest. They're not the ones that make up the majority of the playerbase. Unfortunately those same people, and I use that word loosely, just happen to be the loudest.
Gunny Burlfoot
04-17-2004, 12:20 AM
Not playing WoW myself, but it sounds like a very interesting concept.
However, I think that the title has it right. Before retail, or in a couple months after retail, it will be reduced or removed. I'm a casual gamer myself. I can't bring myself to play for 12 hours straight like some, but I do understand the concept time put in = greater rewards. That is the great equalizer. Time. Everyone has exactly the same amount of it each day, and no one can save it up for another day. So to do this, Blizzard is in effect saying "Don't play this game more than X hours (where X = Well rested > Rested). I know that if I ever did try it out, I'd want maximum efficency for the time I did put in, which would result in me logging after whatever time period X is and doing something else.
Which maybe is good for Blizzard actually, saves bandwidth, and cycles through people faster. Of course anything like a regular grind group is going to be nixed, unless you are all in the same time zone.
If they keep it, you will see this almost in every group you come across...
OnlyHealerIn100Miles tells the group, "That last kill just dropped me to rested, see ya guys, been fun"
OnlyHealer has used Hearthstone.
OnlyHealer fades away.
Anyhoo, will be interesting to track it as it develops :)
Feldaran
04-17-2004, 02:58 AM
That is a very big issue. Hehe.
And as a casual-power gamer lol, it worries me. I am going to be a druid probably *if I buy the game which remains to be seen*, and well, apparently we're rezless, and the heals are merely "ok", the priests just had their sleep nerfed, so it sounds like to compensate they'll have to make priests uber healers (aka, the only real healers). So the "everyone will want the "whitemage" "cleric" syndrome" will rear its ugly head again in WoW. What fun. The more they try to make it not like EQ, the more they are.
Kireiina
04-17-2004, 05:13 AM
For goodness sake, you guys didn't even read it properly. It's not about powergamer versus casual. It's about grinding versus questing. With this change if you want optimum XP you will balance your quest XP (generates no fatigue, not affected by fatigue) with your kill XP (generates fatigue, affected by fatigue).
In other words even power-gamers will still consider doing quests. And power-gamers who do quests will still be able to play very long sessions and make sick amounts of XP, same as always.
Rahjeir
04-17-2004, 06:21 AM
Well, really it does affect casual players as well. Some casual players play in bulk on weekends when they are off from work(I know many people who do this). Play your weekend leveling up, your subjected to the rest rule, thus making this person level slower. Even though it person could only log in on firday, saturday or sunday they would be subjected to "slower leveling". Even doing quests. I've done all quests I've came opon and the "resting" has affected me. Remember you must be resting for 8 full real life hours. You cannot leave the inn even for a second. if you leave the inn your timer gets reset to full 8 hours. This can affect the casual gamer who I just discribed.
Questing, does involve killing xp mobs to obtain the quest item. In some cases, a group is needed. In some cases camping of a area is needed. Questing and killing XP mobs go hand and hand.
I'm still for the resting system. Even though it's royally pissing me off. I believe the time needs to be cut down. Or different times of rest needed depending on your rest state. Or maybe a way to pause the timer so you can leave and resume later. Not one size fits all. We all know one size doesn't fit all.
Katnips
04-17-2004, 11:01 AM
Some casual players play in bulk on weekends when they are off from work(I know many people who do this).
People who spend 10 hours a day in a game on the weekends are not casual gamers. Casual gaming is gaming in moderation when you have time, not marathon gaming every weekend. People who play 2-3 hours a day will level faster under this system than they would otherwise. People who play 4-6 hours a day will level as they have before. People who play 6+ hours a day will level slightly slower than before, but will still be higher level faster than other people due to increased playtime. They will not outlevel everyone in a couple days of marathon gaming or by having multiple people play the same character.
Panamah
04-17-2004, 12:29 PM
It does seem a little odd that you need 8 hours to be well-rested, even if you were only somewhat lower than well-rested. It should be like real life. I don't need 8 hours to recuperate from 1 of activity, whereas I might need 8 hours to recuperate from 8 hours of activity. It's a scale, not a switch.
Rahjeir
04-17-2004, 03:46 PM
You are affected by the "rest" system after 3-4 hours of play.
People who spend 10 hours a day in a game on the weekends are not casual gamers. Casual gaming is gaming in moderation when you have time, not marathon gaming every weekend.
So what would this person be considered then? It wouldn't be hardcore at all. Hardcore play daily. And I will restate this again. You do NOT need to play for 10hours to be affected. after 3-4 hours of play your affected. Even if you quest period.
BGrifter
04-17-2004, 05:27 PM
People who spend 10 hours a day in a game on the weekends are not casual gamers. Casual gaming is gaming in moderation when you have time, not marathon gaming every weekend. People who play 2-3 hours a day will level faster under this system than they would otherwise. People who play 4-6 hours a day will level as they have before. People who play 6+ hours a day will level slightly slower than before, but will still be higher level faster than other people due to increased playtime. They will not outlevel everyone in a couple days of marathon gaming or by having multiple people play the same character.
*raises an eyebrow* I fail to see how someone who plays 6-8 hours a day two days a week is a hardcore powergamer, where someone who plays 2-3 hours a day seven days a week is casual. (12-16 hours a week vs 14-21 hours a week?) This system doesn't benefit casual gamers, it benefits gamers who happen to play in small doses rather than a couple large doses on the weekend.
Edit: Fixed numbers. :) My bad.
I'd seperate casual and hardcore into groups based upon length and frequency of play. Someone that plays a few days a week for a couple three hours at a time would be casual. Someone that plays every night for three hours or so would be "core" (Some term Blizzard put in one of their posts), whereas hardcore gamers would be people that play for more than 5 hours, several days of the week and longer on weekends.
Those are the people you don't want in your game. They suck up bandwidth and are the first ones to whine about lack of content when it's their own damn fault for playing so much and trying to rush through the game to be bigger and badder. I love the rest state if it means people won't grind and camp the same spot all the time and the inns could be a social meeting place to form groups for quests.
Feldaran
04-18-2004, 02:24 AM
Nothing will stop people from grinding, all this change does is change the focus to grinding quests, which, of couse, will hurt the casual player, because the hard core people will be spawn camping the quest mobs, making it hard for them to get the drops.
Ok Feld... just go back to EQ as you obviously don't have any clue about WoW at all. Questing is fun, easy, and there's no competition over the spawns. Blizzard did something really neat. If you have QuestB to kill MobC, and PlayerA has that same quest to kill the same mob, you both get the quest drop as long as you're grouped together.
You really, really, and I mean, really need to get rid of all your pre-conceived notions that the ****ty game EverQuest has stuffed into your head. WoW is light years beyond EQ in terms of gameplay that caters to the casual gamer instead of the hardcore gamer. After speaking with friends in beta and reading several of the various beta journals out there, questing is not a grind. You'll get 3500xp from completing the quest and say 3000xp from killing the monsters for the quest. You get to choose your reward and see the stats before you choose to even take the quest, so you can determine ahead of time if it's even worth your time to do.
Anyone that sits in one spot killing the same mobs over and over in WoW wins the moron award in my book. Blizzard is definately making an effort to make questing preferred over camping.
Tiane
04-18-2004, 02:53 AM
Lol... Aly you *really* have to learn a bit of tolerance... tone it down a notch, please, this isnt Unkempt.
Sorry Tiane, but Feld's ignorance about WoW's gameplay is irritating. At least I spent the time reading the beta forum, talking to alpha & beta testers to find out what the game was like and how various aspects of the game works, before forming an opinion about it.
BGrifter
04-18-2004, 01:49 PM
Ranting like a lunatic who's watched a few too many Dennis Miller videos certainly communicates that wealth of knowledge and research effectively...
Feldaran
04-18-2004, 01:52 PM
Aly, your character in WoW reach level 60 yet? You know what its going to be like there? You really think quests at that level that only take a couple hours are going to give you half a level's worth of xp?
Your ignorance is amazing.
Rahjeir
04-18-2004, 03:12 PM
Currently in WoW people group because they are trying to finish quests. They call camps by their quest name. No cute EQ names, CAMPING ZIN!, OUTER, INTER. Thank God all this doesn't exist yet. The PST is driving me nuts though. The word tell isn't even used in the game! it's /whisper!
Katnips
04-19-2004, 11:20 AM
I have to agree with Aly here. Blizzard is designing the game, at all levels, to have plenty of quests for players to complete that will be near 50% of the xp needed for each level. I can not find the exact quote, but one of the Blizzard devs said if your quest log is empty at any point during a level, they (Blizzard) did something wrong or you are not playing the game right.
Have you looked at any of the screenshots from WoW? Some of them have shown quest rewards of 3500 xp when monsters give only 50 to 100 xp. I am no rocket scientist, but I would rather do a quest for 3500 xp than camp 35 to 70 monsters.
PST drives me nuts in EQ too, Rahjeir. I have no idea why that started. What do they expect people to do, hire a bard to run them down with a singing telegram?
Feldaran
04-19-2004, 02:15 PM
I love quests too, at least, fun ones. I don't see them being able to design more than a few of those. The rest will be your run of the mill courier or kill quests. Considering that's about all there can be. Its not like Blizzard suddenly unlocked the secret to fun quest making. There's only so much you can do in MMORPG's, because everything revolves around killing creatures hehe.
Resting just changes the focus to camping quests. And I am not talking about 1 person, I'm talking about hordes, everyone will do the "best" quests (risk vs reward), etc. Its human nature. And I've read plenty of posts about people "camping" the quest mobs (lots of them), because there aren't enough to go around, one of them spawns, it dies. This was before the rest code. It can only be worse after.
Well, all I can say is that if you're in a the beta and some quest seems boring and ridiculous, feedback it and post about it on the beta forums. Try to get them changed. That's what beta is for afterall. I wish I could participate, but the lack of a broadband connection and 2 gig patches would hurt that chance majorly.
Erianaiel
04-20-2004, 02:11 PM
I love quests too, at least, fun ones. I don't see them being able to design more than a few of those. The rest will be your run of the mill courier or kill quests. Considering that's about all there can be. Its not like Blizzard suddenly unlocked the secret to fun quest making. There's only so much you can do in MMORPG's, because everything revolves around killing creatures hehe.
Well ... looking back at the quests in StarCraft or Warcraft 3 I would guess that Blizzard have a better clue about making challenging and entertaining quests than Sony does. I would not mind to see something like the final Warcraft 3 quest for a very high end quest. Defending the city against overwhelming odds. Sure. Any day they want to run that quest.
Resting just changes the focus to camping quests. And I am not talking about 1 person, I'm talking about hordes, everyone will do the "best" quests (risk vs reward), etc. Its human nature. And I've read plenty of posts about people "camping" the quest mobs (lots of them), because there aren't enough to go around, one of them spawns, it dies. This was before the rest code. It can only be worse after.
If I understand things correctly, not playing WoW, the developers agreed that it took a bit too long to gain levels so they increased experience by a factor 2. They also realised that if they did nothing it would mean that dedicated players would play through the game in two days, maybe three, so they put a timer on the increase. After about three hours (apparently) you are back to normal speed. After yet another three hours (I.e. a six hour play without rest) you are actually penalised for playing too long. If you do not understand yet after another three hours you are further penalised. However, nobody is keeping you from playing 24 hours straight if you are so inclined.
And all you have to do to restore your effectiveness to maximum is simply go to bed and sleep. Does not sound to me that they are heavily punishing players to be honest. Not to mention that there are plenty of other things you can do in the game that are not affected by the experience decrease. You could actually *gasps* socialise. Or you could go on an expedition to gather tradeskill ingredients. Or you could do a quest or two.
Eri
Feldaran
04-20-2004, 03:11 PM
I manage to socialize *while* playing the game...
I guess they'd rather have me log off and use IM or Yahoo to chat...
Crimson13
04-20-2004, 05:09 PM
i'm still on the wait and see attitude, personally, i like the idea and intent of the rest system, but it does need tweaking.
And Feld, like you i tend to socialize in game while playing :) and on forums.... bit of a forum monkey i am
Galamar
04-23-2004, 12:16 PM
I manage to socialize *while* playing the game...
I guess they'd rather have me log off and use IM or Yahoo to chat...
Actually, I think this has less to do with trying to get you to manage your time and more to do with making the Alliance and Horde a little more equal. Remember that this per character and while the official numbers are not out yet, it seems like it'll take quite some time to go from well rested to Normal or below - as in 6 hours or so.
Since this works per character, you can just switch to a different character and play the other side. Not only does it encourage people to experience more content, but it helps to keep a varying degree of players on. I like their system better than.. say.. SWG's. Remember in SWG you only had a one player account so you had to sit there watching some goofball dance away or just go afk. In WoW you can simply play another character instead or just leave the game.
Crimson13
04-23-2004, 09:48 PM
well, it's been updated to suit the demands of the player base without truly sacrificing it's intent:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=31929&P=1&ReplyCount=41#post31929
The Rest State system will be undergoing some changes in the near future. Among other modifications, we will be adjusting the 8-hour timing to be much more flexible. Rest will be accumulated gradually vs. the “8 hours of rest or nothing” approach that is currently in place. To add to this adjustment, people who do not play for long periods of time (weekend warrior types) will accumulate extra rest. This will allow those who only play once or twice a week the added bonus of playing as “well rested” for longer than those who play on a daily basis.
Another anticipated change is to add the ability to rest from anywhere in the world. This should help players who forget or choose not to log off at an inn. Resting at an inn will remain the preferred method, as tiers will accumulate more rapidly if you log off inside an inn.
Lastly, we are planning on making the Rest State modifier a level-based sliding scale for how much experience you can gain at each tier. That is, at higher level-ranges, the amount of experience that you gain before moving down to the next tier of your Rest State will increase.
Overall, we are happy with the Rest State feature and appreciate everyone’s continued feedback. We realize that it still needs to be adjusted and will continue to do so until it’s where we want it to be.
~Kat :)
Panamah
04-23-2004, 10:37 PM
Oh! That's cool, although I'm sure its going to make the 24/7'ers complain even more bitterly that the "silver platter contingent" will be getting catered to.
Tiane
04-23-2004, 11:22 PM
Good changes.
Crimson13
04-24-2004, 06:14 PM
LOL nice one Panamah :) very cynical and yet it rings true...
someone will complain i'm sure, someone always does
Iisbliss
04-27-2004, 08:50 PM
complaint !!
Feldaran
04-28-2004, 01:29 AM
Oddly enough, some casual players are complaining that they are leveling too fast, and missing content. Ahhhhhhh.....
In case anyone was wondering, they jacked the xp-curve up about 170% at the same time they implemented this change. So really, people are getting about 30% bonus xp over what it was, AFTER level 10 (they doubled the xp from 1-10).
What's most likely happening is: people know the best quests, how to do multiple quests at the same time, etc.
Humorous to say the least that some casuals complain about leveling too fast now heh.
Rahjeir
04-28-2004, 05:32 AM
Maybe if some people in the beta read the text they wouldn't miss alot. In game 1/4- 1/2 of the people don't even read the game text. Soo many "what quest is that"? "where is this place?" The game tells you, not directly. You do need to use your brain to figure out where stuff is.
The way the quest system is set up, you go to a NPC and go thru the quest chat. On to the next NPC for quest chat ect ect. Then after you have some from that town, go out the finish the quest. Some are easy some are hard. Some NPC's give out many quests. But you have to finish quest A to get quest B. Quest B will give alot more xp then Quest A. No matter what you need to do quest A. Also, A Quest NPC won't even talk to you till you of level. No to powerquesting, or muiltquesting. You can only do what the game had designed you to do at your level.
On to missing content, of course this is going to happen. WoW is huge. A level 9 noob will NOT be able to do all the quests out there for level 9's to undertake. Really if you want to see ALL of the game, and play it how it was ment to be played, playing afew toons from level 1 to X level is the only way to see it all.
Panamah
04-28-2004, 12:42 PM
Humorous to say the least that some casuals complain about leveling too fast now heh.
Why is that funny? Even casual players want a game that is well-balanced, but for the rate at which they play. Are you just trying to rile up the casual players by saying stuff like that?
Feldaran
04-29-2004, 03:08 AM
I'm a casual player :P.
I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I merely found it humorous that in trying to please the very people the change was (supposedly) made for, they've made some of them upset.
Its obvious you can't please everyone. But XP socialism "devalues" the accomplishments by casual players. If the system was set up that a power gamer and casual player both would get to max level at the same time, would you be happy with that scenario Panamah? Even though the power game might have played 10x as much? 20x? I myself would not be that "proud" of having reached the heights, just because the game forced me along at a hugely accelerated pace. Or should we make it so the casual player actually levels faster than someone who plays a lot? There are people on the b.net forums who advocate just that.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But alas, its too late for WoW.
Rahjeir
04-29-2004, 03:32 AM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But alas, its too late for WoW.
Let me remind you, WoW is work in progress. The game in the beta may not be the game released to the public. Blizzard states this right are their website if you look around the beta area.
I know 3 hardcore people in the beta almost at level cap already(level cap is 39). I'm currently about to hit 20. I do see a issue with leveling alittle too fast. However, this is something that can be fixed rather easy. Hell, it might not be even a issue when the game is released. They could have beefed up the xp alittle for beta testers to get higher faster to test content. To me that's a better method then /betabuff 65 druid, hold the mayo with a side of lettuce please.
Feldaran
04-29-2004, 03:42 AM
Well, WoW is the game that still has that silly 24 hour clock ;). So, my faith in them fixing something even more important is well, not good.
Rahjeir
04-29-2004, 03:49 AM
What's so silly about the 24 hour clock? Not like if affects a persons game play. You should really have more faith.
Feldaran
04-29-2004, 03:54 AM
What if I didn't want to play in perma-dark? or perma-light?
If it does nothing, then why have it? Reminds me of my parents and onions:
Me: Ewww, onions:
Them: Bah, you can't taste them.
Me: Then why put them in?
Them: For flavor.
...
LOL.
Another game tried that, Dark And Light? I think it is called. And the testers called it just "Dark". Because they played in the dark. All the time. Doesn't sound like a good "feature" to me. Or to a lot of people.
Rahjeir
04-29-2004, 05:09 AM
You should just have more faith. The wow beta boards are not the "holy bible". I find it funny people are taking those boards so seriously. The game is just outstanding. Non beta people read the boards have start acting like it's everquest. "omg we get nerfed again!", "It will never be fixed, it's too late". C'mon the game isn't even going to be released till the fall!
Crimson13
04-29-2004, 11:09 AM
2 things:
1. XP, the blizz devs have stated that they've ramped up the XP significantly in the rest push, so levelling too fast shouldn't be too much of an issue, also, the cap is at 39 now which is only 2/3 of the expected launch level cap, and people generally hit that after a few months, so if they fix the xp requirments/rewards then it should be fixed at launch.
2. I concur 150% with the 24 hour clock cycle, again, i'd prefer a 16 hour clock or something like that, something that still gives real weight and meaning to a "day" and yet doesn't force me to always see the sunset and first few hours of twilight except on weekends.
Rahjeir
04-29-2004, 08:46 PM
The thing about the 24 hour clock cycle is your looking at it from a Real life look. I don't think the sun fully sets at 10:30pm in most of the world. Trust me, night and day won't have a huge meaning to use in game.
I know it sets about 10:30 gametime. What time does it rise? No idea, never bothered to look. I play around the sametime always. And I've played in night and day. Trust me, it's the last thing you should worry about.
Panamah
04-29-2004, 10:39 PM
I always enjoyed the sunrises and sunsets in EQ.
Sunrise, sunset.
Sunrise, sunset.
Where is the little girl... oops, forgive me. Had a Fiddler moment there.
Palarran
04-29-2004, 11:03 PM
*sun hits the ground and shatters*
Note to self...stop doing anything.
Uthuk
05-27-2004, 10:44 AM
Rest state as it is, measured based on exp gained outside the quest bonuses is just wrong.
If it was a way to help the causual gamers, it should have been time based.
Well rested: 0-1 hour
rested 1-2 hours etc.
As it is now, rest state punishes the efficient player and nothingelse regardless if he/she s casual or not.
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