View Full Forums : Impact of wepons: more than stats


Oakspirit
01-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Hello,

Please see my introduction post in the general forum. I have some questions regarding wepons and our playstyle, including feral forms.

1.) I've been told that slow wepons, such as two-handed maces, staffs are best for druids. In a nutshell, the longer the delay on a wep., the more time we have to get off a spell. However, I'm questioning this. Does a spell reset the wepon timer? Or, like I've been told, can we cast away in-betweek swings?

2.) I really like playing Druid but do not like the long delay wepons much. How functional is a dagger? I know we cannot dual weild, but I was thinking dagger and an off hand stats-booster for a quicker melee combo.


2.) What relationship, if any, does a wepon's speed have to our bear and/or cat forms? Does wepon delay impact speed of attack in the forms? For example, will my very slow two-handed mace impact the swing speed of my bear? Or cat?

Thanks very much for any insights!

BGrifter
01-30-2005, 05:28 PM
1.) I've been told that slow wepons, such as two-handed maces, staffs are best for druids. In a nutshell, the longer the delay on a wep., the more time we have to get off a spell. However, I'm questioning this. Does a spell reset the wepon timer? Or, like I've been told, can we cast away in-betweek swings?

It largely depends on what you want to do. When soloing tactics often tend to be very similar to that of an EverQuest Shaman, debuff/dot (well, FF/Moonfire), toss up HoTs and start pummelling, root for a break when needed. As in EQ, a high delay/high damage weapon is often popular for single swings between casts. Personally I tend to take the easy route and just look for the highest DPS/best stats, tending to give more weight to stats than damage dealing ability.

2.) I really like playing Druid but do not like the long delay wepons much. How functional is a dagger? I know we cannot dual weild, but I was thinking dagger and an off hand stats-booster for a quicker melee combo.

There's one talent that breaks all the rules, Omen of Clarity. Learn that and suddenly you'll be looking for a low delay weapon, so daggers become the ideal choice. (there is some argument over whether delay has a significant effect on Omen procs, but for the most part the consensus seems to be that it does) Of course this means investing some points into the Balance tree, but pretty much no matter what you focus in a few points in Balance up to OoC isn't a bad idea. (Improved Moonfire is pretty good for a prereq, and Improved Nature's Grasp isn't horrible)

2.) What relationship, if any, does a wepon's speed have to our bear and/or cat forms? Does wepon delay impact speed of attack in the forms? For example, will my very slow two-handed mace impact the swing speed of my bear? Or cat?

Currently absolutely none, nor does the weapon damage have an effect on the damage dealt by the forms. This is a huge part of why cat damage is so pitiful at later levels, rogues and other classes scale upwards in damage as they get better weapons, cat stays pretty subpar throughout. The only thing that will have an effect on forms are the stats on your weapons. (so a high stamina/agi/str weapon is ideal when shifted)

The choice of weapons pretty much seems to break down across talent lines. If you have Omen, you'll want a dagger or at very least a 1H mace with a low delay. If you're planning on going Restoration/balance, a staff with good INT/STA boosts is probably ideal. If you're going Feral i'd imagine a 2H mace with high STA would be optimal. (although I doubt any weapon will really make enough of a difference for Feral right now :D)

Oakspirit
01-30-2005, 10:05 PM
Thank you BGrifter. This is a very informative and helpful post!

Falloraan
01-31-2005, 10:36 AM
Casting a spell does reset your weapon timer. So ideally, with a slow weapon you want to time your spells right after a melee hit/miss. So in this respect, I think a faster weapon is better because you don't have to worry about the timing so much. Slow weapons mean you lose out on DPS if you cast a lot and don't concentrate on timing your casts.

As for Omens of Clarity procs, it's based on Spirit. The higher your Spirit the mroe procs you get. I also am pretty certain the proc rate is independent of your weapon speed. You will proc X number of times per minute regardless of the delay on your weapon.

I melee a lot, and unless it's a tough fight or multiple mobs, I am in caster form for it. So I go with the best DPS weapon available to me, stats are secondary. Fortunately for me, I get both with my staff. For awhile I was using a dagger, and while I liked the frequent hits, I like the bigger hits and crits I get with my staff. In this respect it's all personal preferences: do you prefer stats or DPS? There are a lot of good 1 handers with nice DPS and stats, but you will always find comparable level 2 handers with more DPS.

Stormhaven
01-31-2005, 10:59 AM
I'm going to answer the first #2 because I'm a dagger freak.

I've got the dagger from the "Kill'em all!" SM quest (<a href="http://thottbot.com/?i=3148">Black Menace</a>). I've also gotten attached to the various "chance to cast when hit or upon hit" type weapons and gear; I'm still using the <a href="http://thottbot.com/?i=3309">Totem of Infliction</a> in my off-hand while soloing.

All of my trained weapon skills are right around the same skill level - 230ish, give or take 10 skill points. While the dagger has the lowest reported dps of the weapons I keep on me, as per the weapon's info page, I've found that I maintain a higher average dps (at least according to Cosmos) since I hit more often with the dagger. When I miss with a 40dps 2h-mace, the DPS drops way off due to the swing delay, while if I miss with a 29dps dagger, the dps crawls back up pretty quickly. And while the 80-ish point crits aren't as much eye candy as a 180, they don't hurt either.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while OoC's proc rate is capped, it only procs on hit. So since you swing more often in a fight with a dagger, you're still more likely to proc more often.

Wyll
01-31-2005, 11:58 AM
Can you explain the 'double hits' I've been getting? I usually just cast whenever but sometimes if I cast near the end of the weapon cooldown as soon as I'm done casting I'll see two hits on the creep. Which to me says the attack is 'queued' when you start casting and the weapon cooldown occurs while your casting. So when your done casting the queued attack is processed and the new attack is ready.

If this is the case it is definitely better to start casting right before an attack, or in the middle of the animation before the dmg occurs. Cause you still get the dmg from the attack, your attack cooldown takes place while you cast and you basically get the cast and a double attack all at once. Whereas starting cast right after an attack will reset the cooldown on attacks so when your done you have to wait for weapon cooldown.

Aitrus
01-31-2005, 12:05 PM
1. Time your moonfires to go off as close as possible to the time when your weapon hits on the mob. Using a slow weapon you will notice a huge difference by casting either immediately before (very hard) or immediately after (easy) your weapon hits the mob.

2. OoC is completely independent of weapon type and speed. It procs the same amount regardless. If you think your dagger procs more, its cause your dagger has crap dps and takes longer to kill the mob more than likely. And OoC will proc like twice in a 45 second fight w 2h mace, versus 3 times in a 1 minute fight w dagger (lower dps = longer fight time).

3. Druids want stats on their weapons. Generally you want good stats on the weapon you use, don't be too worried about wep speed or dps, and really don't worry about procs. The only time you will use your wep a lot is for grinding. In instances you'll be healing or in bear form, and in pvp you almost never hit anyone with your melee weapon. So procs and dps are not that important to a druid, get the most stats you can on a wep. Generally 2h weps have more stats than a 1her + offhand item.

Oakspirit
01-31-2005, 07:54 PM
This continues to be a very informative thread. For my play style, a faster weapon is more fun. I guess it is like picking stocks- you find what you can tolerate high/low risk, etc. ;-) I just can't tolerate watching my giant 2 H mace que up and...wait...wait...bam! Meahwhile, the mob is getting in his/her fair share of beating. I know it evens out: it is purely psychological.

But as I understand from this discussion, weapon speed doesn't impact your Bear or Cat attk speed. Is this correct? How can you increase your bear/cat attk speed? (I'm guessing stats..right?)

Thanks!

Stormhaven
02-01-2005, 09:25 AM
My weapon never has killed a creature for me, the weapon is more like an unpredictable DoT. What's killed the mob for me has always been moonfire.

My normal fight is OoC the dagger, pull mob with Moonfire, stabby-stabby, moonfire, proc OoC, regrowth, stabby-stabby, moonfire, etc. A "normal" yellow con mob for me at 48 takes 3 moonfires before it dies (or before they run... the bastards...). An "orange" mob takes 4-5 moonfires.

I've done a few tests by switching out my dagger with <a href="http://thottbot.com/index.cgi?i=3567">Mograine's Might</a> or <a href="http://thottbot.com/?i=17753">Diviner Long Staff of Stamina</a> and have not noticed any significant reduction in fight time.