Hello everyone, I'm new to this site as well as World of Warcraft. Myself and three friends are going to be starting a new group in the PvP server Laughing Skull as horde. We have yet to finalize our group and I was hoping for some tips. Should we meet up right away or level up a little first, and then combine, we all live in the same dorm and plan to play together almost all of the time? What happens if one person plays more and becomse higher level, does the group fall apart? We are looking for good synergy within the group member to make sure we have a powerful group that works well together. Any tips on a good four person group. I'm looking to play the Tauren druid, but am open to other classes if a druid would not be necessary. Can a druid be the tank, if so how, what talents, etc. If not what should our group consist of? Any other tips you wish you knew when you began would be helpful.

Druids can tank well with bear form at lower levels, once u get past about 35 it starts to go down hill, and gets more gear dependent.

I would suggest pally for tank / back up heals / rezer, druid for main healer / battle rezzer, mages i just like to summon drinks for me :p and most likely a rogue for DPS.

your group will not get far if you have druid as main tank.

You guyz should most defintly stay together the entire time. Most exp comes from quests, and if some people start doing quests that others didn't do, they will pull away in level and you'll end up have a 57 rog wanting to do BRD while the rest of you are still trying to beat Zul Furack.

Try not to get out of 3 levels within each other. 1 level would be optimal.


o and scratch the pally thing, you said horde didn't you, maybe a druid / shaman healing pair would be good i dont know. I do know shamans own me in duels tho, so they cant be to bad.

What happens if one person plays more and becomse higher level, does the group fall apart?
It will happen, I guarantee it :grin:

There will be one person that can't escape the lure, and before you are 20 they will be 30. And 50 when you are 35. Then they'll create an alt and catch up to you before you are 45.

Trying to keep 4 people at the same level is very very ill-advised in this game. You're much better off to all head for level 60, and then once you're 57+ you can group together for instance-raids, pvp, etc.

What you want to do will literally require that the 4 of you only play when all 4 are online. Otherwise if 3 of you play, the 4th guy will need to do quests that the other 3 already did. Then maybe 1 person will log and play a bit, he'll get some quests done that the other 3 haven't. Either people will end up repeating quests they already did (which makes doing them the 1st time pointless) or you'll all end up having to go your separate ways anyways.

As long as you stay within 3 levels of each other, you can at least hit the major instances together. For example, all of you can level how you please to lvl 19-20, then farm deadmines from level 19 to 23. Then you go to stormwind and farm stockades from 23 to 26. Do some random questing from 26-30. Then farm gnomergan from like 30 to 35.

The random questing in between requires people to be at the same spots witht he same quests to do. But instances are repeatable as they are good exp and good items/gold even if you already have done all the quests within it. Usually instances are good for about 5 levels, so if you all stay within 3 levels of each other, and are willing to repeat-farm instances (it is the fastest way to level imo) it could work. But trying to do all quests together won't.

As for your 4 man group composition I'd reccomend:

1. Druid.
2. mage/warlock
3. Warrior.
4. Priest/Shaman.

Now doubtless you'll get a rogue or a hunter cause they are played by 50% of the players in WoW, but if you could the above would be roughly what you want. But you really want a tank, a caster, and another healer to complement your druid. Mages are great in instances with polymorph and aoe, but warlocks are also great with summon, soulstone, and healthstone.

I'm currently level 48 and my normal play group is a very non-standard mix. We have a druid (me), rogue, hunter, priest, and usually another druid. In that mix, I am the best tank we have available, and I've gotta say, I do a pretty good job at it, *but* having a pure priest in the group is a big benefit that can't be overshadowed. I have been the tank in every single major encounter that we've had, starting from Black Fathom Deeps, to Scarlet Mon to Uldaman (Zul'Farrak is next!) and have had very few problems.

The only real weakness that I've encountered is the cooldown on taunt - since the bear doesn't do a whole lot of dps quickly, it's hard to yank multiple mobs on to you - AE taunt is a 10min cooldown, and single taunt is a 10s cooldown. A lot can happen to a priest wearing tissue paper for armor in 10 seconds. In dire bear, I'm currently running around 4000ac and 3200hp (with motw and that priest buff).

I can also speak on the group leveling thing -
*Not always* is my answer. It depends on if the lagger is willing to put forth time to catch up. I was the lagger in my group of friends, behind by as much as 7 levels during the lower teens. The rested experience bonus that WoW provides will do a lot to help you catch up - double xp for several hours helps move you along rather quickly. Now that we're all in our 40's, we're within 2 to 3 levels of each other. I will say that if you fall behind after level 35~40, then it'll be much harder to catch up. The sub-30 levels go by really quickly especially since the quests give you 1-2kxp each. While the 40+ levels still go by fast enough that I wouldn't call it "grinding," there is definitely a significant slowdown when you start needing 100kxp per level.

If I were to make a four person group from scratch, a druid would not be included for me. I would actually pick something along the lines of priest, rogue, rogue, warrior. If you had a fifth, then I might look more towards utility so druid or paladin for an extra rez'er (Alliance), or druid or shaman on the Horde side.

rogues?

rogues are pvp beasts, but they are far from necessary in a pve or instance group.

I agree with needing a priest, but a secondary healer is also needed for the tough runs. Your options are warlock (very limited - healthstone and sousltone), druid, and paladin/shammy. While paladins make good secondary healers, I hear shaman have limited mana pools and relatively weak healing spells. That would make the druid fit the bill. Especially since you can use bear form to help the tank, or just to tank, and then shift out for heals when the priest gets into trouble.

Running with just a priest to heal is feasible, but you'll be making it a lot harder on him than it has to be. Rogues... well sap is alright and they have dps, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone say "ulda group lfm need rogues!" or any other instance.

Rogues put out a sick amount of dps (my rogue friend currently crits for 800 and has sustained dps over 150 - sometimes 300) and if you can trim the length of the fights you cut down the needs for sustained healing.

I am in a similar situation to you:

I'm Part of a 4 grp set up that has been together since the early teens. We are well into the 40s at the moment and we have played everyday together. The combination we have is

Preist (ME)
Warrior
Hunter
Hunter

This combination has done us well. There has been absolutely No situation that we have not been able to handle. As a matter of fact we run through Dungeons a little quicker and easier than most.

We normally keep around 4 levels from each other.

We pull around 4-8 mobs at a time with little trouble.. The hunter pets offtank and and the hunters themselves are DPS machines. Our Warrior is great at Aggro control. And he is able to get mobs off of me pretty quick if I gain Heal Aggro.

Now as for the talents of our specific Group is:

Warrior- Specced for Pure Damage.
Hunter#1- Specced for his added Dps to his ranged attack.
Hunter#2- Specced for added Pet Damage and Pet Attacks and Speed.
Priest- I am 80% Holy specced and 20% Discipline.

About 30% of the time our 5th is usually a druid, He is a perfect compliment to our group, with his added Dps and Backup Heals.

Hope this helps and sorry so it was so long.

Chubbs
43 Preist of Imperial Gaurd on Mal'Ganis
67 Druid Retired on Rodcet Nife

Just have to make sure they're a combat rogue, and not one of those sissy dagger rogues though.

I tend to off tank a lot. I may not have the melee DPS of a Warrior but by staying in caster form I am able to dot/thorn/heal enough to stay alive and keep the mob occupied while the rest of the group takes out the other mob. The only time I MT as a Druid is in a guild group where we normally are rogue, caster(mage/warloc) and Me.
I will cast dot/debuff on mob, regen on myself then drop into bear (if mage) or cat (if warloc) forms and use fiery fire as a taunt. Then pop out for casting if necessary.

My regular 4 man group is warrior, rogue (me), hunter (nice offtank), and priest. We do quite well and only need to pick up a druid/shaman/priest for the 5th spot in instances. Personally I wouldn't use two ranged DPS classes or 2 melee DPS classes, one of each works best. We have managed to keep 3 of us at level 51 and one at 49. Of course this takes a bit of effort but it has been great when we do instances.

I am an advocate of working with what you have. Its done well for me so far and its refreshing to have to come up with alternate strategies.

Thanks for all the help, here's the update on our group situation. We've made the switch to alliance for who knows what reason, and we've all decided to make two characters so that if not all of us are on we can just level our solo characters. The group stands at:
1. NE high dps sword rogue
2. Gnome priest
3. Human mage specializing in AoE or maybe things such as mind control and fear (not sure what the best route is)
4. My character needs to be the main tank.
I was going to choose pally, but I'm not sure if i can get the aggro needed to tank, is a paladin feasible?
If not I was either going to do a night elf two-handed weapon, battle stance warrior for massive dps (lower armor, but with a pure priest will i be ok?), or straight up dwarven shield and one sword pure tank. Our fifth member who won't be with us all the time is a druid off-tank so that will be taken care of. So should I go high dps ne warrior, paladin, or dwarven tank?

Paladin would be viable for the most part, but I think you're best off with your dwarven idea. Though you could do the two hander, go straight for Mortal Strike, and once you find yourself lacking in tanking, switch to a more defensive spec build.

And your rogue shouldn't limit himself to just swords, as a combat rogue specializes in the use of sinister strike. Sinister strike instantly does melee damage + x amount, without waiting for your delay to be up. So for Sinister Striking only the damage, not DPS, factors in. Well for the rest of your hits you need DPS, there are some really great maces out there that have comparable to sword DPS, but with a much higher damage rating.

Also your mage doesn't get mind control, priests do. My suggestion would be to do an arcane/fire build. There are some key talents in arcane, like the ability to make Arcane Explosion instant cast, but also some other decent mana ones. And fire is where the other AE damage spell is at, as well as the higher DPS tree.

[Edit] And a tip as a warrior, Sunder Armor is your friend. Don't let the rogue in the group use expose armor. A stacked Sunder will debuff more, as well agro lock a mob on you. It's cheap(15 rage), no recast, and it only takes one or three to keep a mob easily locked on you, then you can switch and repeat with the rest of the mobs.

I have had a group of people i level with since about 20ish.
me - druid
pally
hunter
rogue
rogue

IMHO - Pallys CAN NOT keep agro from the rogues unless we send him in for 10 seconds building agro, even when others have the 30% agro reduction, the rogues over agro when they crit, eviscerate, etc. and the hunter over agros when volley'ing multiple mobs.

Pallys can keep agro on boss fights however because you can give him time to get agro, but when u pulll multiple mobs, he lacks AE taunt ability.

Pally's however, are AMAZING at keeping the main healer alive, i never die when the pally is at complete attention. they can get a 5 minute cooldown invincibility thing for when i get heal agro, and if the group is going to wipe, he can intervention me, i can rez him, and he rezzes rest of group, not to mention the spot heals.

Pally buffs - devotion is ALOT of armor for a druid, for me it adds about another 65% of my armor. 900ish armor, 600 armor from devotion. blessing of widom is a great mana source.

Being with a mage / rogue will give you many agro problems as a paladin, but in your circumstance, it seems to be the best way to go. (as finding healers to add to your group will be harder than adding another paladin or a warrior.)

If you had a 5th friend by any chance, and they were to be a warrior, you would have an amazingly balanced group, that i bet could rip through anything.

for the questing, its not that big of a deal if one person misses the quest (if its an instance atleast) because it is great exp with a full group in most cases, so most of the time you will be back there grinding or getting lewts.

ps. - i personally think your caster party member should be a mage, the drinks are awesome for the priest / pally and ofcourse the mage itself, and the polymorph always helps. and the dps is great.

rogues are pvp beasts, but they are far from necessary in a pve or instance group.
I'd like you to go through an instace with two paladins within group, no rogues. Then go through the instance with two rogues in group and come back here and say that again.

I, very often, crit over 300 with Sap and sure I'm getting well over 400/500 at times (hadn't looked recently) but do know for a fact I get a number of crits over 1300 with Eviscerate, one of our finishing moves. Plus, I just got two new daggers so who know what I'm crit'ing at now.

Pallys CAN NOT keep agro from the rogues unless we send him in for 10 seconds building agro.
That just means your rogues suck. I was in a group last night with a lvl 58 Paladin and a lvl 58 Warrior and they have *no* problem keeping agro with me, lvl 60 Rogue, backstabing as long as I kept using Faint (which is why we have this skill in the first place). If your Paladin can't keep agro, it's cause either your pally sucks or your rogues suck. I had absolutely no problems with any boss in Sunken Temple and we ran it twice.

My bastard rogue friend crits for 1300, maintains 800dps, and then loses aggro and dumps the mob back on to me doing my paultry 70dps. He thinks it's funny :(

Played a rogue through beta, up to level 53, dropping aggro as a rogue isn't that difficult if you know how to time your feints (and provided you're not a tool and stop using your other attacks while feinting). As far as our beloved Druids tanking, I can tank AND hold aggro quite well, provided the other healer in the party is decent at their job, I do leak hp about twice as fast as a warrior or pally, but good use of demoralizing roar, stuns, and shifting to heal (I looooove Nature's Swiftness, thanks Ndaiyne!), I can be a viable main-tank and a superb off-tank.

Sorry to take it off track like that. Druids do make good tanks. Rahj, a cleric guildmate and I trio things a lot of times. If we get to anything that I can't tank myself, Rahj will pop into Bear and he'll tank it. Works very well and we've taken on alot of things that many groups seem to have trouble with.

Seeing as how he is leveling up with 3 other friends from 1-60 (well thats the plan id assume) a druid will not cut if for everything your doing. It just wont happen, there good incase a tank falls and u dont have any other tanks, or if you have a more delicate caster in your group, you can go bear and taunt, or if your doing easy instances etc. But if your doing quests that challenge you, such as DM at lvl 18, Gnomergan at 30, Uldman at 42 etc. Your groing to need a stable tank, however if you grind over and make the instances easy compared to your level, the druids armor and other characters dps will be able to cut it.

Druid is a hybrid of many classes, it is in no way going to be able to tank as well as a warrior or pally.

I have to agree with everyone here. I don't see a druid doing a whole lot in a three man group. Our class is far too reliant on other classes in the group to do our job efficiently. For us to be great healers, our tank has got to be able to hold aggro considerably well. For us to be decent tanks, we have to have a good healer in the group that can watch our backs. Not to mention it is probably a good idea if there was a REAL rezzer in the group that could rezz everyone up if something bad should happen. Druids are an excellent variable class with the potential to make a good group an extraordinary group by playing many roles. Unfoturnately it requires a higher playing level for a druid to perform exceptionally well at duties other classes can do easier with a few convienent spells at their disposal. Yes, a druid can be an outstanding healer capable of pulling you through many instances... but you would need to be more efficient at playing your class than a priest would at your level.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Druids are your inbattle rezzers. Sure they can only do it once in 30 minutes, but the point is they can do *in battle*. Priests cannot and I'm not sure about paladins.

Druids tanks good enough, as long as their other DPS classes and naturally another healer in group. Geez, a warrior can tank non-stop, as long as he has a healer. I really don't see your point about "reliant on other classes". Doesn't every class some kind of reliance? Priests rely on their tank to tank well, or they're tanking. Tanks (reguardless who the heck they are) rely on their healer to keep them healed.

Who ever says druids provid little utility in a group doesn't understand the full strengths of a druid. I've duo'ed, trio'ed and had normal (full) groups with druids.

As I stated above, my normal group is druid/priest/hunter - in that combo - especially before the Hunter got mail, I was *the* tank. Now that the hunter got mail, she can keep up with me, but with dire bear and sta gear, I can soak much more damage than she can - and that leaves her free to go all out on dps. With just us three, we've done very well in instances made for our level *except* in situations where mob numbers just zerg us. My druid does very well with 1-3 mobs, but any more than that, and keeping aggro becomes the problem, rather than taking the hits.

My normal group is Priest/Rogue/Druid with the Rogue being myself. I'm normally the main tank, unless Rahj decides to show off with his uber spell casting then he just tanks it while I BS the thing. hehe

Who ever says druids provid little utility in a group doesn't understand the full strengths of a druid. I've duo'ed, trio'ed and had normal (full) groups with druids.

First off, I never said it couldn't be done. I made it clear that it COULD be done, it would just require more skill from the player. I am well aware of all the druid's strengths and weaknesses. To clear up some confusion you seem to be having, let me clarify. An IDEAL group that I would make of three people solely for knocking out instances and quests, would not include a druid. I'm going to walk you through this giving you my reasons to be sure you don't misunderstand me this time.

Reason 1: Druids have no reliable means of crowd control in instances or indoors. Therefore, once you get to places where mobs are grouped 5 at a time, it becomes much more difficult to be a main healer for your group. I believe the first place I began to feel this difficulty was RFD. It's NOT that I couldn't do it, it was simply a little MORE DIFFICULT than say for a priest who has AoE fear and Fade to shake off aggro. Since the Druid has no way to dispose of unwanted aggro, this makes us far more DEPENDENT on the tanks ability for keeping aggro whereas a priest can compensate for a lacking tank by managing his aggro. This is what I was refering to in my previous post. I was certainly NOT saying it couldn't be done, or implying that other classes did not rely on other classes in a group for their trivial roles.

Reason 2: A druid is not as good of a main tank as a Warrior, Paladin, or Shaman. You will possibily lose aggro sometimes during the fight, and your armor and stats are not going to be as good as classes that were intended for tanking. This means that you will be MORE DEPENDENT on your healer doing his job good than say a warrior or paladin, and on other dps in your group managing their aggro better than if a shaman or warrior were tanking. Once again, I am NOT saying it can't be done, I am simply saying it is a little harder. There is a little more room for error that wouldn't be there in an IDEAL group, and thats what it comes down to.

In a group of three with a druid, you can have a good group, but it wouldn't be my IDEAL group. The difference between a good group and an IDEAL group is the group's performance capabilities. When you're making a group of three people, your abilities are limited to the three classes you choose, therefore you want those three classes to do as much as possible and be able to compensate for roles that OTHER classes would have played if they were in the group. In my opinion, a druid lacks too much in the tanking job and while he can hold his own as a primary healer, I would definately want a healer that can manage his aggro and crowd control for him to be in my IDEAL group. I'm not saying it can't be done, because it definately can be, it's just a little more difficult. In areas like DPS and crowd control (areas where you can never have too much of) the druid lacks considerably, making one of the key reasons I wouldn't have a druid in my IDEAL group.

You may be thinking, "so it's a little difficult... so what? It can still be done." You're right. Just know that there is more room for error and you and your group will have to perform at a higher skill level to achieve success. All in all, more room for error = making it harder to do instances that are hard. This may not be a big deal for you if you simply want to do instances your level and do what your supposed to do. But if you like challenges and doing instances before you're supposed to and doing dungeon crawls frequently to farm gear, you're going to want as small of a margin of error as you can get. In my opinion, this requires a healer who can manage aggro and crowd control, a strong tank that can manage his aggro, and a dps that can dish out considerable damage and still provide utility and crowd control for the group. If you havn't guessed it yet, my IDEAL group of three would consist of a Warrior/Shaman, Priest, and Mage. Finally, I am NOT saying it CAN'T be done with a druid. I am saying I would not have a druid in my IDEAL group. I am certainly a qualified druid, and am WELL aware of our capabilities (perhaps more than you are Guice). A druid is an excellent class and I love playing one, he just stays on the sidelines on my IDEAL group of three.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

:clap:

Druids have no reliable means of crowd control in instances or indoors.
But they have more than other classes. Care to add them into the bunch for uselessness, too?
- Rogues can sap, only one and must be before conflict, humanoid only -- Absolutely no means of CC while in battle.
- Clerics can AE Fear that lasts 10(?) seconds; can charm, but only 1 and can't cast anything else, humanoid only; can shackle but only 1, undead only.
- Mages can AE Root that lasts 15(?) seconds; can sheep upto 35? seconds, humanoid only (not limited to out of battle only).
- Druids can root that lasts 10(?) seconds; they can sleep, beasts only, upto ? seconds
- Shamans can AE root that lasts until totem is distroyed
- Hunters get ... ? (pet doesn't count as that is their tank)
- Warriors get ... ?
- Paladins get ... ?
*Edit; forgot Warlocks, oops;
- Warlocks can fear, upto 8 seconds. And I think that's it.

Druids get something when 1/3 of the other class nothing? Don't complain about something when others get nothing. The way I see it; it's better to have some than none at all.

For tanking;
I don't now how a shaman would handle tanking within a group as I play Alliance, but I can tell you that a druid, in bear form, tanks much better than I do, as a rogue. As a rogue tanking, in a group, I'm very dependent on heals as normally there's other people attacking it so I can't use Gouge. I also can't taunt *at all* so priests are very dependent on my outpurst of DPS just to keep NPCs off them. Priests are very dependent on taunt just as much as druids are within a traditional group. Only different is that priests can't tank worth a d* and must use (?) to slower their agro on occation. Druids have a much higher mitigation than priests, but yet lower than shamans.

For a tank, I'd take a druid over a rogue any day of the week.

The whole point of this discussion is to state that druids do have uses and aren't as useless as many are making them out to be. Sure, there will always be a class that's better than them (just ask your EQ Bards--jack of all trades, master of none). To have so much verisitility, you must sacrafice being a master at nothing. Just cause they are the masters at nothing does not mean they are useless.

Shamans don't have AE root. They have a taunt totem(junk) and a AE snare totem. AE fear from Priest is 8 seconds, plus the time it takes for them to run back.

A shaman tanks well enough in a group, especially at 40+ when they get mail. They have shields even well wearing leather, so that helps a ton when they need to take something hard.

The lowering agro ability Priests have is called fade. It provides an immediate agro reduction as well as making your actions well under it have reduced agro. And armor wise we tank about as well as a rogue, but we don't have the dodge level of a rogue, or the parry ability. As long as you don't skimp on training Inner Fire, you can keep around 20-22% reduction depending on how long since your last Inner Fire upgrade.

Ah ... didn't know that about the Shamans. I do know the NPCs like to use an AE Root totem, a lot. Guess NPCs do have a but more spells than PCs do. Make sense, they need to complensate for the lack of AI. Although I'm a bit miffed they get a poison atk slow and I don't. :(

And the druid root is indoors only... and Blizzard seems to have a strange definition of indoors and outdoors - not quite as bad as EQ, but certainly stranger in some situations.

The druid sleep and lull lines are versus beasts and dragonkin, my current sleep is 30s and single target only.

Since the Druid has no way to dispose of unwanted aggro

Actually, we do, and I use it often, I shift to cat, spam cower, then shift back to caster if I'm acting as a healer... I've found it to work better than priests fade, though it does take a bit more work if you aggro multiple mobs...

And the druid root is indoors only... and Blizzard seems to have a strange definition of indoors and outdoors - not quite as bad as EQ, but certainly stranger in some situations.

The druid sleep and lull lines are versus beasts and dragonkin, my current sleep is 30s and single target only.
Think you mean Outdoor only. Forgot about that.

But yes, the single target is right. All "sleep" type spells are single target only; poly, sap, shackle, sleep. Doesn't mean anything more that the druid's sleep is single target only.

You also forget that hibernate is beast and dragonkin only... that is maybe 10% (if that) of the mobs in an entire instance. Humanoid mobs are far more common in instances and raids (places you'll more likely need the crowd control) than beasts, thus making hibernate a spell that can hardly be used. I've used Hibernate less than 10 times in all my druid life and when I did it was usually just because I could, not because it was needed. Ask a mage how many times they've used sheep in their careers or a rouge how many times they've used sap. Not to mention since the nerf of Hibernate, it has been highly unreliable and i've noticed that it has the tendenacy to break early alot more now.

As Stormhaven pointed out (I'm sure what he intended to say), druid's cannot use root indoors like I actually mentioned in my 2nd post as well. I guess you missed it.

As for your utility discriptions of other classes, you are a bit off my friend and that is where you make evident your lack of knowledge in this discussion. Let me run you through a short education course on the classes of WoW, and lets hope you learn something.

But they have more than other classes. Care to add them into the bunch for uselessness, too?
- Rogues can sap, only one and must be before conflict, humanoid only -- Absolutely no means of CC while in battle.
- Clerics can AE Fear that lasts 10(?) seconds; can charm, but only 1 and can't cast anything else, humanoid only; can shackle but only 1, undead only.
- Mages can AE Root that lasts 15(?) seconds; can sheep upto 35? seconds, humanoid only (not limited to out of battle only).
- Druids can root that lasts 10(?) seconds; they can sleep, beasts only, upto ? seconds
- Shamans can AE root that lasts until totem is distroyed
- Hunters get ... ? (pet doesn't count as that is their tank)
- Warriors get ... ?
- Paladins get ... ?
*Edit; forgot Warlocks, oops;
- Warlocks can fear, upto 8 seconds. And I think that's it.

Druids get something when 1/3 of the other class nothing? Don't complain about something when others get nothing. The way I see it; it's better to have some than none at all.

For tanking;
I don't now how a shaman would handle tanking within a group as I play Alliance, but I can tell you that a druid, in bear form, tanks much better than I do, as a rogue. As a rogue tanking, in a group, I'm very dependent on heals as normally there's other people attacking it so I can't use Gouge. I also can't taunt *at all* so priests are very dependent on my outpurst of DPS just to keep NPCs off them. Priests are very dependent on taunt just as much as druids are within a traditional group. Only different is that priests can't tank worth a d* and must use (?) to slower their agro on occation. Druids have a much higher mitigation than priests, but yet lower than shamans.

For a tank, I'd take a druid over a rogue any day of the week.

The whole point of this discussion is to state that druids do have uses and aren't as useless as many are making them out to be. Sure, there will always be a class that's better than them (just ask your EQ Bards--jack of all trades, master of none). To have so much verisitility, you must sacrafice being a master at nothing. Just cause they are the masters at nothing does not mean they are useless.

-Rogues: While they can only provide sap before the engagement, a group can adjust their pulling around a rogue's saps before the fight and establish a killing order. As opposed to every other crowd control in the game, the group works around the pre-established crowd control before the fight, rather than the Crowd Controller reacting to the groups pulling during the fight. This ability is unique to the rogue class because they have a method of feinting off their aggro after their initial sap/pull. A good group will work around the crowd control, instead of the crowd control working around them. With Stealth and Sap, a rogue can really help with reconnaissance and disabling a mob before a fight even begins. A stun specced rogue can even go so far as to "offtank" a mob for a fairly considerable amount of time without taking much damage via chain stuns. Why did I leave them out of my IDEAL group? Because although their Stealth ability for reconnaissance is invaluable in new instances, after farming it a few times and you start learning the instance, it becomes unncessary. Their DPS is far more than generous and they are very well capable of controlling their aggro, but it their damage is limited to melee distance and mostly only focuses on a single target.

-Shamans: A very sturdy all around class. A Shaman's best utility is his ability to heal, while still having the gear, stats, and aggro control good enough to tank. Definately a class you can be confident in to main tank and if the role is already filled, he can provide for the group by being a strong offtanker. Unlike druid's, Shaman don't need to transform in order to tank or offtank, and all their spells are at their immediate disposal the entire time. With Frostshock and Chain Lightening, they can aquire aggro, if needed, very quickly and even keep themselves alive with self heals. Meanwhile, their toems provide the group with constant replentishment and protection. This class can serve as an alternate rezzer, as also unlike the druid, they have no long reuse time on their rezzes. If the entire group were to wipe, a Shaman can even self ressurect himself once the mobs have passed, and rise the group back up where they fell. Definately a commendable class that deserves a role on my IDEAL "dream-team" group.

-Priests: Certainly the best healers in the game, with the widest assortment of heals in the game at their disposal in order to keep their group alive. Not only are they efficient at healing, but they have many methods of crowd control. First they have Soothe. An ability they can use before the fight (like the rogue's sap) in order to eliminate possible "adds" on the initial pull. Unlike the rogue's Sap, the mob does not aggro after it becomes "unsoothed." Another ability they have is mind control, where they can corrupt one of their enemies and use it on the other mobs in the fight. Very useful for minimizing a possible threat while at the same time increasing your groups dps. Priests also get fade. Fade reduces their aggro considerably on all mobs for 10 seconds, allowing them to keep their aggro low while applying the necessary healing. You may not look upon this as a direct means of crowd control, however it does a fine job of keeping mobs off the main healer and that happens to be the identical goal of crowd control. Controlling the mobs so they don't rape the healers. Last but not least, Priests get a last ditch effort to save themselves with an AoE fear spell. This spell will give the group a chance at escaping or at least by them time to get a handle on the situation. While the priest has light armor, he compensates for it by having many crafty ways of negociating his way out of aggro so that he does not actually have to mitigate damage like a druid does. The druid has to mitigate damage because he has no other choice, he does not have the wide variety of options the priest has of getting rid of unwanted aggro. For it's healing, crowd controlling, and crafty abilities, this class has earned it'sself a spot on my IDEAL "dream-team" group.

-Warriors: Whereas they are limited in utility they make up with physical power. Without a doubt this is a class that can tank any and every mob out there better than every other class. With a strong warrior, you can bully your way through any instance and take on their bosses without any hesitation. I can't ignore the fact of this classes limited abilities however, and when **** hits the fan you want as much utility as you can muster up at the time. This class takes the bench for my IDEAL "dream team", but is a possible sub for my Shaman IDEAL main tank.

-Hunters: Pet doesn't count? What the hell is wrong with you? Hunters can provide their groups with strong ranged dps as well as a capable offtank (their pets!) that is great for keeping mobs busy. Hunters have much utility from their ranged snares, pet offtanks, and even AoE ranged DPS. Combined with his chain armor, this class is tied with the mage in competition for the dps spot on my IDEAL "dream-team."

-Mage: Really nice ranged dps for groups and can provide the group with crowd control with Polymorph and instant cast ice roots. Very strong AoE damage which can make pushing through instances go very quickly and even help in destroying those annoying "slave" mobs with low HP some bosses like to summon. On top of that, the mage can provide the group with summoed food and water to ensure downtimes are quick. With a mage in the group, progressing through instances is guarnateed to go quickly and having a mage has the tendancy to make many hard instances seem trivial. Not to mention its nice to conviently port to key cities to buy/sell/repair. However, the class is limited to cloth armor and has no current method of reducing its aggro and so only ties itself with the Hunter class fighting for the DPS slot on my IDEAL "dream-team."

-Warlocks: This class, like the druid, has several good uses... but just seems to be outdone in most of it's roles by other classes. Warlocks can limit mob abilities with their curses, provide offtanks with their Succubus or Voidwalker pets, temporarily mezz mobs with their succubus's, provide the groups with soulstones and healthstones, and even summon players to the groups location. Unfortunately, the last part requires three players to do so, and if you're only in a group of three you wont be able to summon anyone without all three of you being there. While this class seems to have alot of utility, I just can't find a place to put them. They have decent ranged dps, but very limited AoE. Their pets provide decent off tanks, but nowhere near main tanking capabilities. Healthstones and Soulstones are great to have if something were to go wrong, but I have a hard time inviting a class to a group relying on something to go wrong before they are actually a convenience to have around. Combined with their portals, this class ultimately seems to me like a "convience class" more than a powerful class. I suppose they could fill the role of DPS class like a Mage or Hunter, and keep the group moving with clutch utilities like Soulstones and Healthstones, also offtanking with their pets, and weakening mobs. It's hard to notice a Warlocks significance to a group because things just tend to seem to "go your way" when you have this class in one of your groups. But then when you think about it after the instance is done you realise that things might have gone your way because the mob was cursed to the point of putting up little more fight than Christopher Reeves in his wheelchair. Or maybe it was those Healthstones the healer and tank had no problem clicking when they were about to die and needed an instant heal. This class may not be as flashy or show-boatish as other dps classes, but their considerable, though quiet, utility has earned my respect as a possible sub for my Mage or Hunter DPS classes on my IDEAL "dream-team."

-Druid: Please refer to my second post on date 2-03-05.

Druid's lack crowd control indoors. We rarely come across mobs in dungeons that are dragon kin or animals, which makes Hibernate an unreliable CC ability in instances (not to mention it breaks early alot). Root altogether can't be used on raids or in instances. Crimson's cower technique in catform sounds quite creative and I'll have to test it out, but other than that druid's don't have a whole lot of options for crowd control indoors and it is limiting our class greatly. That is the bottom line.

BTW: The pupose of this thread wasn't to make us druid's feel like we had a purpose in the game and make us feel good, it was to get advice for a person who was making a three-man group with friend's. I don't need to tell myself that my class is good or post on the boards to convince myself of it. I play my class because I love it, and despite some frustrations I might have, I would hope other people would take note the truths I present them when asked about my class and learn to appreciate the druid for what it is good at, rather than tell them lies only for them to later be disappointed. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. I am not raving about how the druid class sucks. I believe it could use a touch of attention here and there, but thats it. I am not only looking at the good sides or bad sides of the class, I am giving you an all around perspective on both the posatives and negatives of the class. I wish you would appreciate this rather than accuse me of blasphimizing the class. I truly hope you learned something today, I didn't write this for no reason.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Two small things, one a shaman would use Earth Shock for agro, as it has an actual +agro component. And Mind Soothe doesn't really work in instances, and has been nerfed these days. Most mobs in instances are too close together to be pulled with soothe, or are linked, making soothe pulls 100% useless on them.

Can druids tank effectively, I would have to say yes. You will have to be mindful of getting gear that is better for tanking and it would be smart to have one of your friends play a healer class so you don't have to look for one. Warriors are the best tanks because their mitigation is so high and they can hold aggro if they know what they are doing. Druids also hold aggro well if they know what they are doing, but their mitigation is not as good as a warrior, which is why you want a healer. Shamans are also reasonable tanks as well, though in my experience have a bit harder of a time holding aggro.

As for 4 people playing together, I would say you can do it if you all agree to stay within 2-3 levels of each other and to complete quests together as much as possible and to help each other catch up if someone falls behind in quests. If you all have common play times, you can do it. I recommend each of you make at least one alt and play them when you can't play together. I would also say to get together fairly quickly, probably do the initial noob areas alone and try to get together asap after that (around level 5-6, by 10 for sure IMO).

And for a good group, you want a tank, healer and dps for the bare minimum if you can and don't forget other utilities (rezzer, party-wipe preventer, AE damage, and so on).

The complaint isnt with the root itself it is the usage. I only know of one instance that allows rooting although there may be two. So in you toughest area where crowd control is needed most it is useless. Also I have been in spots that looked outdoor (temples, bridges, cave entrances, etc) where I have cast it and gotten the outdoor message. Overall, I think they have done a better job than like in EQ where you didn't know if root would hold until you tried it on the mob and then half of the higher end ones summoned you if you rooted them.

On the other hand, I dazzled a Paladin two levels higher than me the other day when he accidently got a young dragon as an add and I Hibernated it. When he saw the dragon coming, he yelled run, then I slept the dragon and rooted the mob he was on then called him a coward... It felt soooo.. good. Compare that to an instance were you have a mob 5 levels lower than you that runs and brings two more, who run and bring two more, etc.. There is no way to shake agro in an instance.