View Full Forums : PvP: 60 dru vs 60 dru = draw.


Aitrus
02-21-2005, 08:30 AM
I tried to take on a lvl 60 horde druid today.

Pointless.

I honestly do not see how this fight could ever end.

we both had feral charge, dunno anything else about his spec, I am 31 restore 11 feral 9 balance.

Start with a moonfire and a root, he shifts bear and feral-charges. I drop a rejuv and go bear as well.

My bear MASSIVELY out-ac's him. He's hitting me for 50-60, im hitting him for 150-200. But it doesn't matter. Once near half hp he shifts and regrowhts. once im low I shift and regrowth.

And in the time it takes us to bring each other to half hp w our low ass dps, all of our mana has regen'd.

Assuming we're both restore, we could have fought forever. Even if it ever came close we could drop nature's swiftness, and then innervate.

I really don't see how a druid vs druid fight at lvl 60 could ever end. Our dps is too low and our bear AC too high for the dmg to add up faster than mana regen.

2 masters of endurance = no winner.

Wonder if its the same for priest vs priest and pal vs pal. I know any time 2 healers go at it its a longer fight, but usually they burn enough mana that at the end someone can win. Druids don't burn enough mana to get to that point.

T_T

DemonMage
02-21-2005, 08:45 AM
For two priests it's bassicaly who runs out of mana first. We have mana burn, so between that and having to heal, the fight isn't going to be THAT much of an endurance fight.

(Assuming all else is equal, and one priest doesn't do something overly stupid, etc.)

Aitrus
02-21-2005, 09:33 AM
yeah that's what I was thinking. Normally healer fights are a mana-battle. But druids shift and don't burn mana while doing dmg. Then they pop out and heal to full (druids cant interrupt healing spells very easily. Even if you save your bash or get off a feral charge, its not like your dps is high enough to finish him before he canc ast again) then back to form and let the mana regen.

Maybe that's the true "balance" of the druids. I remember everyone being angry with pk in moonglade, and saying that "as druids we should all get along and be at peace". Well at high-end pk you have no choice to be at peace, because you can't kill one another!

chloee
02-21-2005, 11:22 AM
For Priest vs Priest, the winner is usually the one who both has the most points in the Discipline tree and is smart enough to pull out a 1h weapon to counter GHeal, Mind Blast, and Mind Flay effectiveness. In essense its a mana battle, but its more about how you use and manipulate it through casting and talents rather than who runs out first.

Chloee

Boudicca
02-21-2005, 02:14 PM
He may have forgotten to Faire Fire you during the fight, which might explain the mass difference in AC. Or you just may have had a big advantage gear-wise.

Usually when it's two evenly-matched caster opponents , the victor is the one that can use the miscellanous things - potions, trinkets - once all the mana runs out and it's a melee standoff.

If it's a very long battle and I've burned up Innervate, I'll just make sure I have enough MP to go into bear form right at the runout point.

Aitrus
02-21-2005, 02:43 PM
I have 9k AC in bear form... I don't think faerie fire was going to matter :P

And usually you're right about caster battles. But druid vs druid you CANT drain mana fast enough if both of you are smart. We have limited interrupt abilities, so like one druid decides he'll moonfire/kite the bear. You burn half your mana, I shift out and heal, then I go back to bear. You shrug and go bear too. When you're at half hp you heal, when I'm at half hp I heal, with decent spirit our mana regens while we're in bear... and it regens to full because bear dmg vs bear dps = long time to bring someone to half hp.

Found it really funny cause I don't think there is any way this fight could have been won. I mean, if we both just follow the strat of fighting in bear, and healing once at half hp, our mana will never run out. And frankly this is the best druid pvp strat as far as I can see. If he stays caster and burns mana while im in bear he'll lose. If he goes cat my bear will maul him to death while he hits me for 25dps.

Can you say any way to win a dru vs dru fight if your opponent fights in bear till half hp, then regrowths and shifts back to bear?

Boudicca
02-21-2005, 03:44 PM
If you had 9k AC in bear form, then you had a significant advantage over him gear-wise for PvP unless he is specced the exact same way as you are.

I have almost full wildheart set and have int/sta gear in other slots, and my bear form AC barely approaches 7k. I do have almost 7k mana though, so it makes up for it.

With that much AC you pretty much negated his melee abilties and forced him to go into nuking form. It still shouldn't have been a draw.

Aitrus
02-21-2005, 04:18 PM
I have full wildheart set, warden staff, ring of protection, mark of tyranny (working on smoking heart of the mountain and stoneshield cape). Brings me in at 4.1k HP and 5K mana (cant remember but i think thats before motw)

The thing is, even with my ownage AC, I still dont dish out damage fast enough to another druid in bear form to prevent his mana from regening to full before he shifts. He didn't have to go nuking form. He just stayed in bear, fought till halfhp (which is a long time at ~100-150 dmg a hit) shifted, regrowthed, then back to bear. When I got a bit low I shift, regrowth, back to bear.

In this scenario nobody can win because druid dps is too low and bear ac too high. In the time it takes to do enough dmg to make somebody need to heal, they will already have regen'd all the mana they spenton the last heal. Thus infinite cycle of bear and healing.

And as far as I can tell, there is no superior strategy to use vs a druid who bear+heals. I mean he was bear form, what else could I have done? Root and moonfire/starfire spam? Chances are I'll just burn a tonne of mana, and he'll pop out and heal, and then he'll have the advantage cause he's bear w full hp and 4/5 mana, while im caster w 1/2 mana.

In a straight up caster vs caster fight you would get the priest effect of people running out of mana. Druids tho can get in the scenario where nobody is going to run out of mana.

But I'm curious if there's a good druid tactic to counter a bear form + heal tactic. I tried rooting but it broke quickly each time, and you wont hold a druid long with root. If he gets tired of it he'll shift and root you back :P

In pvp is there a way to beat a druid who uses bear form + heal and has feral charge? Or is it destined to be a draw?

Boudicca
02-21-2005, 04:34 PM
I have a theory, but I will test it out first. I'll duel a couple of Druids in my guild and stay in caster form while they do the bear/heal thing.

Glyss
02-21-2005, 05:01 PM
I had a fight that was pretty close once between me and another druid that was taking forever as well. What won the fight for me was that he waited till he had 30% hp left to cast Healing Touch, I stunned him with bash, then popped out into caster form and hit him with moonfire and fairy fire. He tried to heal again and I used War Stomp to interrupt again and then i spammed moonfire on him for the win. My advice is keep up with the endless cycle and wait for him to make a mistake. When he makes the mistake, be ready to execute your counter.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Aitrus
02-22-2005, 09:14 AM
Taurens get the advantage tho w the extra stun. We just get bash and feral charge :(

But short of someone making a mistake like going to 30%hp before trying to heal, I don't think there's a tactic you can use to win... basically just have to count on the other guy breaking the cycle of bear form + regrowth when at 50% to win. For NE, even if I was to bash a guy at 30%, I can't dish out enough dmg in 8.5s to finish him off I don't think (5s bash + 3.5s for HT). Or at least it'd be tight even with moonfire spam. And again even that scenario relies on him letting his hp dip pretty low.

Boudicca
02-22-2005, 10:42 AM
For NE, even if I was to bash a guy at 30%, I can't dish out enough dmg in 8.5s to finish him off I don't think (5s bash + 3.5s for HT). Or at least it'd be tight even with moonfire spam. And again even that scenario relies on him letting his hp dip pretty low.

That was my experiment last night, and the only edge I found during the Bear/Heal strategy is two trinkets - Ramstein's Bolts and Essence of Eranikus:

There WILL be a moment during the 15-minute fight that his innervate will be down, nature's swiftness will be down, his mana will be lower than he'd like, and he will let his health approach 30%. At the moment he shifts out to heal, I stun him in bear form, shift out to caster form, Wrath him, Moonfire him and release my Eranikus trinket on him. He should start trying to heal again after that - at that moment, I stun him again with Tauren stomp and then 500 instant DD with Ramstein's trinket and that should = dead druid.

It worked 2 out of the 3 times I tried it, and at the moment I'll take a 66% success rate. We'll see what else I can come up with.

You're a Night Elf, so part of this strat is worthless to you, but we'll see what we can come up with.

Aitrus
02-22-2005, 11:00 AM
yeah the key seems to be getting your opponent to get to low hp and then block his heal and pour on the damage.

I just can't see how the scenario of someone letting themselves get that low could even play out. Although looking at druids on allakhazam, some have reallllly low AC so they wouldn't be sitting in bear form nearly as long as I can.