Having played for 3-4 months now, I've noticed a phenomenon that didn't exist quite as strongly as EQ as it does in WoW.

For... WHATever... reason.. players love to attack mobs that I'm already engaged in battle with. It happens multiple times a night, and can happen anywhere, even in the most remote of locations. I can be soloing 1 single mob, and out of nowhere someone will run up, start attacking my mob, and often times will KS me. Then say "oops, didn't think I'd out-damage you, sorry". Well, WTF were you attacking it then??? lol....

In EQ, there was a policy --- whoever engages the mob first, is the person who technically has the rights to that mob. If the person dies, then you may jump in and try to kill it. But otherwise, if someone of sufficient level agros/attacks a mob, and then you run up and attack it afterwards and get the experience for the kill, you technically "KS"d that person, which was likely to be /reported and the GMs probably wouldn't do a damn thing to you, but that's beside the point. It was a generally accepted practice amongst all the servers, and anyone who violated this "standard" usually was the subject of a vicious general chat flame or whatever.

Since I solo quite a bit, and quest a lot, it's not uncommon for me to find that the mobs I have to kill are in a "camp" of 2-3 or more mobs, and I'm faced with the prospect of 1) getting a group to assist me or 2) if I feel I can pull off killing multiple mobs at once, then I sometimes go that route.

Inevitably, even when there doesn't appear to be anyone in the vicinity, and I buff up, get full health/mana, and decide to take the plunge to take on 3+ mobs at once (which I can and have accomplished before, anyone with half a brain can accomplish it)... I'll target one mob, cast a spell to agro them and they will all start towards me... I'll start going through my various battle moves and decisions trying to beat these mobs, and all of a sudden one of two things happen:

1) I see a spell effect on one of the mobs that I don't currently have targetted, and that mob will run off in another direction. When I pan my view out, I see that someone has run up, targetted a mob that was on me (that I had planned on taking down), and has agro'd it off of me with either arrows or a spell.

2) I see a figure appear in the fray with me, obviously a combatant of some sort, and they start wailing on one of the mobs that is agro'd on me, and they end up killing half the mobs.

What's irksome about this, is I usually only take on that many mobs if I happen to *need* to kill them... Even if I don't ask for help, if I'm not in trouble, if I have everything under control... they will do this. They end up taking a mob that I needed for a quest.

Are they doing this because they think I'm in trouble? Or because they're wanting to peel off a free single pull instead of what would have been a pull of 3-4 mobs that most likely would have killed them?

Whatever the reason, it IRKS me lol...

--------------------
Allow me to explain another very annoying occurrence that makes me so mad...

This usually happens when trying to find an item for questing or tradeskills. Perhaps I hafta to find something on the ground for a quest or perhaps I'm hunting for minerals for tradeskills.

Suppose I spy the item I need in the middle of a camp of 4 furbolgs. I'm solo, and the only way I can get that ground spawn is by clearing the camp and looting it.

So using devices that I've learned I begin the process of clearing the 4-mob camp that would normally take 2-3 people to achieve if they have no patience. As I'm clearing the very last mob --- and this is the part where I get extremely pissed --- someone runs up into the now clear camp that I cleared all on my own and mines the mineral or takes the ground spawn/chest that I was working towards.

This pisses me off so much, they usually get an earful from me. Most of the time, the d00d runs off without responding to me... I don't clear a whole camp and risk death just for you to run up and loot the item as I'm finishing off the last mob, that YOU would've had to kill to get to.... I basically just did the work for some lazy ass stealer to come up and reap the reward. This has happened some many times...

Am I the only one that this happens to? lol... *want to pull my hair out sometimes*

with the first thing, you can't hog all the mobs. And if you're going to hog all the mobs at least have the foresight to hit all of them once so that they're tapped for you. Either swipe in bear form, moonfire all of them, or manually shift targets to each at the start of the fight so that if someone comes to take one they'll only be helping you. But I can say from experience it makes me mad when I see a warrior aggroing entire spawn areas and standing there while the mage AoE's. I'm sure its efficient, but they hog the entire spawn.

With the chest/mineral loot thing. It sucks but that's how the game goes. People will always come in to ninja loot chests or deposits or even skinnables. They figure (somewhat correctly) that those are fair game for everyone. If you happen to aggro all the mobs and they can get in untouched and loot, that's your problem :( But I agree that is REALLY frustrating when it happens. My personal experience tho is hunting devilsaurs, and ill get one at like 10% hp, and a horde will come up and gank me, then finish off the devilsaur and steal the loot+skin it. That really sucks :(

If there is no one else around when I begin to engage them, how is that "hogging" the mobs? That's simply me taking on 4 mobs at a camp. If I die, then someone has the right to come in and engage the mobs, but if I agro 4 mobs intentionally with the intent of killing all 4, that's not a green light for someone to walk up and kill half of them.

Can't believe you pulled the "hogging" card lol...

{EDIT} Actually that whole first paragraph doesn't make sense..... 1) I'm not a warrior and an AoEing mage.. Im a single druid, and 2) trust me, I do some AoE agro to get them on me, because when I take on 4 mobs I usually immediately go into bear form and do 1 round of Demoralizing Roar to reduce their Attack rating and then throw in a swipe for good measure (so yes, I have the "foresight" just as you said I should have). It doesn't take much to pull agro off of me after that, and I can't kill 4 mobs at the same time, I have to kill them 1 at a time... so it leaves the door wide open for someone to run up, see me fighting all these mobs and start attacking one that has most of its health available. Just because I hit a mob first doesn't mean I'll get xp... If I pull 2-3 mobs and I'm killing one of them while tanking the other two, all someone has to do is run up and attack one of the others, for an easy single pull for them via my hard work when I was capable of taking them myself.

If I see someone else attacking 1-2 mobs, I never interrupt that person... they engaged it first. Unless they ask for my help or if they're like at 10% health then I'll even throw a heal and help them out, but I won't take their kills. That's my point.

Hit an AE of some type, if you have any and mobs all yours. :p

My personal experience tho is hunting devilsaurs, and ill get one at like 10% hp, and a horde will come up and gank me, then finish off the devilsaur and steal the loot+skin it.
Maybe the skin, but definatly not the loot. The kill is yours once you do 1% damange to the mob. The loot is yourse. The only thing he could take from you is the skin if he manages to right click before you. And if that happens, just don't loot or .. just sit on the corpse, not getting off. I've seen people sit on corpses for 5+ minutes before, so who knows how long that'll last.

Are you sure about the 1% damage thing? I've been KSd by people who came up and started attacking a mob that I was already engaged with despite doing a good chunk of damage to the mob. The painful thing is, since bearform does kinda pathetic DPS, I've gotten a mob down to 80% or so, enough to keep agro, but someone will walk up behind (usually a rogue), go nuts from the backside and get the kill, the xp, and the loot while I tanked the mob for the sucker... then they run off without a scratch while I gotta sit there and heal up, because I tanked the mob for them. :( And I know I did probly close to 40% of the damage. Seems like whoever does 51% of the damage to a mob (more than half) gets the kill.

The HP bar turns grey when you've lost the mob. If it's still red, you should still have it.

I've never had any problems with KS, even kiddies coming up from behind me trying to attack the mob. As long as I got the first hit, it's always been mine.

Although, I will say I've KS'd guards before. There is a formula in there someplace about XP placement. However, for PC's, it should be who does the first damage.

No if you die the mob becomes free for whoever hits it next. Horde can gank you while engaged with a mob and then steal it.

Otherwise once you've hit a mob once its yours. Not sure if you die without finishing it if other alliance can jump in, but I know for a fact horde can because they've done it to me and I've done it to them.

It's hogging because there is no viable reason why you need to pull 4 or 5 mobs at once other than to try and hold them for yourself. The mage + warrior is at least understandable since thats the quickest way to kill.

Druid? you have thorns and swipe, neither of which amount to even one arcane explosion over the course of an average fight. You could be pulling them one at a time, the only reason you're grabbing a bunch is in case somebody comes (which obviously they do, and do so frequently if we believe your post) so that all the loot will be yours. Or you're pulling all of them because they are in a tight camp and you have no choice. But the bottom line is you can't kill all of them pulled at once any faster than you'd kill 1 at a time.

Aitrus, you are not understanding...

I'm talking a "camp"... as in a woodfire and 4 mobs standing around it. I can't single pull those mobs. No matter what I do, all 4 come. I'm not pulling all 4 to be greedy, I'm pulling them because I cannot pull one single. Unless you know some secret l33t strat on single pulling a single mob with 3 more standing right next to him, I'm not following you at all.

When I see 4 mobs standing around a camp, I need to kill 3 of them for a quest, no other player is nearby, and my only option is 1) leave them standing there, or 2) agro all 4 and try to beat them... well then I'll agro all 4 and see how I fare.

You seem to think I'm just running around in an area just agro'ing as many mobs as possible. I'm not that stupid, I try to take singles whenever I can.

Rofl. Hit the mob once, it's tapped for you. WoW is not like EQ, you cant go in and KS mobs. You only need 1 point of damage. Pull 4 mobs hit each one once with your weapon and then kill them. Use an AE spell and tap them all for yourself. Druids even have the instant cast spell to ninja tap mobs.

Once the mob is tapped for you (you can tell if it's tapped for someone else by the name turning grey) you will recieve all exp and loot. If a rogue wants to come up and kill your tapped mob let them, it's like they are helping you for nothing in return.

They probably saw you pull 4 mobs and thought you needed help. Were just trying to be friendly by grabbing a mob you hadn't tapped yet.

If this is the case, then maybe I'm experiencing some lag or something.. because I know I've engaged mobs before and done 5-10% damage to a mob and someone else came up and attacked it after I did and I couldn't loot the mob nor did I get any xp.

I've never noticed the gray bar before because I didn't realize that's how it worked... perhaps I was the victim of some "ninja-taps" or something... it's good to know this, though, thanks.

If I wear thorns and have 3-4 mobs from a campfire hit me... am I automatically "tapped" for all 4 mobs since my thorns did damage when they hit me?

Yes lag is a factor, sometimes it takes a few seconds for the mob to turn grey. If they shot it with an arrow, bullet, wand, or lowbie spell that does very little damage, you might not notice the damage on the mobs health bar.

If someone is running around tapping all the mobs you can either, let them die if they are going to, or if you have agro, simply leash the mob and it will open up to everyone again after it returns home.

*edit* As for ninja skinners. If you don't loot the mob it can't be skinned. If a skinner is standing over your shoulder waiting for the kill just wait until they leave, then loot and skin. If it's in a popular area, run around and skin other mobs while you wait.

so if you admit you WOULD pull one at a time if you could. Then why is it a problem if you pull 4 and a rogue comes in and takes one exactly?

Holy cow, Aitrus, this is ridiculuos.... I try to pull a single when I can. But if there is a campfire surrounded by 4 mobs in close-proximity and I want to try to kill them, I will try to kill all four, especially if I don't see anyone around. Just because agro'ing 1 mob will agro 3 mobs next to him doesn't mean I can't kill them, I've cleared campfires before just by myself. That doesn't mean I want a rogue to come up 10 seconds into the fight and kill 2 of them. I try to pull a single if possible.. if that is not possible, and I think I have a shot at killing 3-4 for at once, I'll go for it. If I don't think I have a shot, I won't bother at all and I'll move on.

Is this sinking in yet?

Warlocks have a problem tapping a mob since most of our DoTs don't do damage until the end of the first tick (6 seconds?). We cast a DoT, the mob aggros on us and starts beating us, but a hunter or someone with a quick attack can still steal the mob before our first tick of damage actually locks the mob to us. And of course since the mob is agro'd on me and my pet attacks it, it stays on me, I lose health/mana but get no kill :(

Haven't had it happen to me much, but I've heard it is more of a problem on some servers.

Also, if the person who is assisting in killing a tapped mob is quite aways above your level, it will cause a loss of experience. But as long as they're like within 5, maybe even 10 levels of you, they can do the other 99% of the damage, and you'll get full experience for it. Even if you do lose experience, you'll still get loot rights.

And I don't believe Thorns taps, just like in EQ the damage doesn't count for that, if something dies from thorns alone, you can't loot it.

And yeah Kerech, Priests have the same problem really =-p No insant cast instant damage.

It's rude. That's the problem.

Fawn, I also get incredibly annoyed with people who either purposefully try to KS or attempt to "help" me when I have multiple mobs. There are thousands of mobs in this game and usually dozens in the exact vicinity - there is no reason to cause a problem by trying to take one that is already engaged. That said, I've personally found that with thorns or a quick moonfire you won't have that problem. Plus, it is incredibly satisifying to see someone try to KS a mob I've already damaged, kill it and give me the xp. But I'm not always warm-spirited. :grin:

nope.

Either you're being greedy and hogging the spawn, or else you wouldn't care if someone came in and grabbed a couple of them.

If you want to get all 4 kills then just tap all of them with moonfire or swipe em in bear form before anyone shows up.

Usually if someone is tanking 4 mobs, unless those mobs are like 6 levels below them, I'll jump in and pull a few off of them and they say "thanks", because either they've tapped all of them anyways and appreciate the help, or they were surprised+overwhlemed and appreciate the assist.

Just tap all of them and your problem is solved. Forget the rest of what I said :P

Yes, Aitrus, I realize now about "tapping" and this thread has helped me learn that. I still don't think I'm greedy if I come upon a campfire in the forest with 3-4 mobs around it, all of which I need for a quest, no one else is around, and I can handle all 3 mobs myself. If I decide to agro all 3, and I can handle it, that is not hogging a spawn, simply because I dont have a method of single-pulling that camp... It's either nothing or all 3-4 mobs, so I dont' have a choice, but I love challenges, I love taking on multiple mobs and I don't regard that as greedy, if I can handle it and I was there alone and first. It's for those bastages that run up 5-10 seconds into the fight, see that I haven't tapped 2 of the mobs (evidently) and nab them when I never asked for help that I'm referring to. If I need help, you'll typically see me RUNNING away lol. :D

Be careful of when you "help" someone, they may not be wanting the help lol.

Thorns don't count for tapping mobs. If you have multiple mobs on you it is possible your thorns are doing damage but unless you litterally hit them with a spell or melee before another person pulls it off you, then you will not get the mob. Moonfire is awesome for ninja pulling mobs out from under other people's noses. If you really want all four mobs then you are going to need to hit them all with moonfire or make sure your swipe hits them all (don't forget swipe only hits 3 at a time). As for the ninjaing of chests and quest items that spawn on the ground, I only do it to Alliance.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Warlocks have a problem tapping a mob since most of our DoTs don't do damage until the end of the first tick (6 seconds?).

A tick is 5 seconds. I find using my wand is better then nothing. Druids and warriors are definatly the kings of ninja tapping though.

Maybe the people "helping" need to make sure the mobs are tapped before engaging, hmm? And bitching at someone for not tapping all the mobs they are engaged with is like blaming the victim of a crime... bad logic. Courtesy is sorely lacking in WoW, I suspect because the average player age is *MUCH* lower than any other MMOG I've played (well, except maybe the Hello Kitty game, but everyone there was nice!), and also because it's new and various conventions havent taken hold yet.

I sympathise with Fawnae. These "helpers" just need to stop. Death is pretty meaningless, if I bite off more than I can chew and die, oh well. Unless I start yelling for help, I'd really rather any potential "helper" just stand by and watch me die.

Course, having played a warlock since release, I'm especially touchy on this subject. Until one of the recent hotfixes, our pets (and hunters) did not xp-lock mobs. And we have no instant damage abilities, most of our curses *never* tap a mob, and neither do many dots, and those that do tap dont do it until several seconds later. Trying to level up as a lowbie in crowded areas surrounded by bnet kiddies was a nightmare.

As for the ninjaing of chests and quest items that spawn on the ground, I only do it to Alliance.

I just try to be courteous regardless of faction. Horde or Alliance, there are still humans behind the characters. ;) I certainly know that's how I'd hope someone would treat me.

Eh quest items respawn in 5 to 10 mintues anyway, and nothing really worthwhile usually comes out of chests. It's not a big deal really, its just fun to take advantage of the opposite faction when I can because I know 90% of them wouldn't hesitate to do it to me if the roles were reversed. The long standing subliminal message excerised in MMORPGs is: you snooze you lose. It was Blizzards idea to pit Horde and Alliance against eachother and deny them the ability to group or even talk to eachother to accomplish mutual goals. They had to expect there would be rivalry and competition over quest items, so therefore its only natural to assume they encourage this kind of behavior when it comes to opposing factions. If you're a nice guy, great, but you'll have to forgive me for not feeling sympathy for a faction that raids my towns daily.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

I don't see this as a BIG issue - typically the drops in quests aren't ultra-rare drops, respawns are pretty quick and there are usually many other things to be doing.

Furthermore, it isn't like having help on a quests costs you ANYTHING - if the drop is a singular, everyone will get a chance to loot it - if the drops are not, then you keep killing until everyone has enough....I don't see why having help is such a problem. If someone comes in and starts chopping, invite 'em to your group, problem solved.

Seriously, people need to break out of the EQ mindset - the game isn't a competition anymore, like the design of EQ made it....WoW is designed so offering to help by grouping actually makes the game ALOT more fun for everyone.

Evidently some people do not understand taping and are use to KSing. Although it is against my basic character, I have learned not to "Help" others. I have had a couple of incidences:

I ran accross a mage that was near death so I rooted his mob. I couldn't get my heal off fast enough because the one I had loaded was too high level for him. He ended up dieing, the mob came after me so I killed it. Needless to say, I got the KS rant from the mage which he then took to /yell.

I was pulling mobs in the camp in STV for the Jungle fever quest. I had a medicine man targeted and there was a hunter killing mobs a short distance away. He ran over and marked the mob as soon as I hit it with Fiere Fire and sent his pet in. I hit it with Starfire and he tells me not to cast on his mobs. I told him I already had it targeted and was casting on it when he attacked it and his reply was that he had it and he didn't need my help. I left him and targeted another Medicine man and He tried that again on the next mob but I opened with Starfire and got the kill. He told me to leave his mobs alone and welcome to /ignore. He was an unguilded lv 36 hunter and I can see why. As rude as he was I hope he never joins a guild I associate with.

Had a priest pull 4 mobs so I hibernated the pet, rooted one and pulled one off of her. After she got back to rez herself she /ruded me and told me to quit KSing her mobs.

Easier to just let people die than try to help them but then they accuse you of letting them die so you can steal their mob.

Well, evidently I meet some different people...because if someone is doing the same thing I am, I group with them. Thus, I never have to worry about having an argument.

Well, evidently I meet some different people...because if someone is doing the same thing I am, I group with them. Thus, I never have to worry about having an argument.

Yeah, seriously. ;)

You guys are all too high strung. I'm really boggling here at the anger over people helping you. Now true, I go out of my way to only help with tapped mobs/or heal if possible so as not to disrupt anything if I help someone out... But if someone helps me out without doing so I still appreciate it. *EVEN* if I had the situation under control, because in my mind its the thought that counts. I can't expect everyone to be as on the ball as I am, especially considering how many people out there still don't understand mob tapping.

Maybe its just a different way of looking at the world? My first instinct in those situations is actually to believe the person was trying to help me, not grief me. I'm normally pretty cynical in a lot of other areas, so not sure why this is...perhaps because I'm just seeing myself in them? Maybe those that get angry never help anyone so they don't understand it? ;) (I'm taking liberties and poking a bit of fun here mind you)

I sympathise with Fawnae. These "helpers" just need to stop. Death is pretty meaningless, if I bite off more than I can chew and die, oh well. Unless I start yelling for help, I'd really rather any potential "helper" just stand by and watch me die.

Oh c'mon. You know better than that. So if I take this course of action, instead of the thread here complaining about helpers, it will be a thread complaining about people that stand there and watch you die. Its lose/lose. ;)

***

I will admit that resource ganking pisses me off a great deal, probably more than anything else that happens in this game. There just is no other way to look at it other than a person being greedy and thoughtless.

I sympathise with Fawnae. These "helpers" just need to stop. Death is pretty meaningless, if I bite off more than I can chew and die, oh well. Unless I start yelling for help, I'd really rather any potential "helper" just stand by and watch me die.

There is a diffrence between helping someone and stealing mobs they had obvious intent in killing. It takes less then a second to right click a mob if you're that bent on pulling more then 1 thing at a time.
I've been in Felwood (way overcamped zone) many times where people I have never even meet before have thanked me for helping them clear a camp of mobs. Never have I heard of anyone complaning that people are stealing "their" mobs.
If people just start watching you die, it's going to be a "Why does everyone watch me die so they can have the mobs" post.

And we have no instant damage abilities

You have nukes and wands. Maybe you need to be a little more aggresive.

That is not the point. In any case, we have a nuke that takes 3-4 seconds to cast which we dont get until later, and wands are not an option if you are low level (and dont tap the mob if they are resisted, which is often even when maxxed in wand skill.) It's not a question of *me* being aggressive. It's a matter of you minding your own business. It's not a question of whether I'm "bent" on pulling more than one thing, but if more than one thing comes then I'll handle it or not based on my own abilities.

As for assuming that I'll complain about people watching me die... well I'd just as soon you NOT assume what I'm going to say especially when it's hypocritical to do so. Take the argument as given, dont project false conclusions just because you have no real basis to support interfering in someone elses combat.

If you MUST help someone, do it unobtrusively... healing, or debuffing, whatever. I'm not without compassion, but if you insist on "helping" someone dont expect thanks if you killsteal them, or if you interfere with what was a fun challenging fight and make it trivial for them. Grinding over and over on single mobs gets boring - that's *your* EQ mindset speaking. It has nothing to do with an EQ mindset, and everything to do with courtesy. You dont go interfering with someone else unless they ask for it. It's rude, obnoxious and arrogant to assume that your help is either needed or desired.

I dunno Tiane, why don't you group with these people? Just ask them if they are working on the same quests, and that solves the problem.

I dunno Tiane, why don't you group with these people? Just ask them if they are working on the same quests, and that solves the problem.

I'm sure there are lots of nice, smart folks who play WoW. But most the people I meet and see in that game are just folks I don't want to be closely associated with (which is actually a completely different rant for a completely different thread - but I'm saddened by the difference in community between EQ and WoW). V, you didn't really ask me this question but I'll answer it anyway: because I often _prefer_ to solo or duo with my boyfriend. If someone "helped" or "KS"d I'd be even more unlikely to want to assocaite with them. Maybe the problem is that I'm not as open to grouping as I was in EQ because it's not as necessary as it was then.

In any case, we have a nuke that takes 3-4 seconds to cast which we dont get until later
http://www.thottbot.com/?k=554 Level 1, 2 seconds.
http://www.thottbot.com/?k=552 Level 6, 2.2 seconds.
Looks like talents give you an instant cast ae too, if you go that route.

(and dont tap the mob if they are resisted, which is often even when maxxed in wand skill.)
I have never had trouble with resist on my wand, no more then any other spell I cast. Should I believe that my character is diffrent then every other wand using character in WoW?

You're assuming that I run around after I log into WoW saying, "Phew glad I am here, without me this server wouldn't be going anywhere, everyone needs my help. Gosh where can I go today to help out poor people who can't fend for themselves." I don't interfer with other people unless they are in obvious need of help.

If you're in such a highly contested area that you have 3 people pulling mobs off you the second you agro a camp it's "rude, obnoxious and arrogant" to assume that everything there is yours. Camps are *your* EQ mindset.

a != your

I'm sure there are lots of nice, smart folks who play WoW. But most the people I meet and see in that game are just folks I don't want to be closely associated with (which is actually a completely different rant for a completely different thread - but I'm saddened by the difference in community between EQ and WoW). V, you didn't really ask me this question but I'll answer it anyway: because I often _prefer_ to solo or duo with my boyfriend. If someone "helped" or "KS"d I'd be even more unlikely to want to assocaite with them. Maybe the problem is that I'm not as open to grouping as I was in EQ because it's not as necessary as it was then.

I understand what you are saying - but it is usually easy to tell when someone is working on the same quest yoy are doing. Mostly, they hover around you as you're doing something...either assessing a pull, or looting a kill. At this point, I'll ask them are they working on quest_01, and if they say they are, I'll invite them to group. By doing this, I often find a short 10 or 20 minute partnership develops, and if they are nice and reasonably competent, we might do another quest or 2 together.

What I have found with WoW, is that the community feeling from EQ is actually much more work, I'll agree with you there. But interestingly, because the way quests work, I have found my grouping experiences have been more interesting and memorable, much more so than in EQ, in which groups just became so much wallpaper.

Since just about any class will work with any other, I can have a duo, 3/4/5 person group without any real hassle - and because so many folk playing WoW are new to the genre, it has been alot of fun. Also, since the penalty for dying is just a short run or a durability hit, I am much more open to grouping than I ever was in EQ.

There's nothing wrong with soloing, or grouping...but I believe that making friends and building community is worth the investment, and it's evident that problems like this one can be the result of people not wishing to get involved in building the community in the first place.

Well, there's also the fact that not everyone is working on a quest. And if all you feel like doing at the moment is finishing off level X, grouping with someone else is a bad idea, as it kills your experience. It's not quite as bad with three+ people as you're getting a (minor) group bonus then, but you really need to be chain killing elites at that point to make resonable experience.

And Oddjob, 2 seconds != instant, wands are also not instant. 2 seconds is a lot slower than instant applied/tapping damage.

"I have never had trouble with resist on my wand, no more then any other spell I cast. Should I believe that my character is diffrent then every other wand using character in WoW? "
Good for you. I personally find that my wand got resisted around half the time (purely subjective), and even if it's 10% of the time, that still makes it UNRELIABLE as a method of xp-locking a mob. Mind you, suppression (reduce resists of shadow spells by 10%) was one of the first talents I picked up, and it doesnt work on wands, so that may be why I notice a higher resist rate as opposed to my spells. (Note also that it doesnt work for immolate either, the spell you listed...)

And where did I say anything about a camp? Nowhere. Enough of the nonsense, I'm not the one bringing up EQ-centric concepts into this discussion. I've played plenty of other games and MMOG's to know what applies and what doesnt. This isnt EQ, where when you die it's hours of XP lost and a large chunk of time added on just getting back to your corpse. In WoW there is, for all intents and purposes, no death penalty. By "helping" someone you are saving them AT BEST 10 minutes of rez sickness, more likely just 2 minutes of running back to their corpse IF they die. And you take the risk of annoying the person you are "helping" if you do so without being asked. So why take the chance?

It's not MY job to dance with game mechanics to ensure that I get the kill credit for mobs that I'm obviously engaged with, to protect them from "helpers" who are running along and decide to help themselves to "practicing their weapons skills" or "building up rage" or whatever lame excuse works for that particular class. If you exercise a little common sense, courtesy, and logic, it should be apparent that jumping into someone else's fight without being asked is a bad idea, no matter your intentions.

Wands are pretty reliable as long as you have maxed skill and the mobs arn't above your level, or anymore than +1, maybe +2. Of course, maxing your skill is quite annoying since the int bonus to weapon skills doesn't apply to wands. But if you parsed it,it should be fairly close to melee miss rate and probably average spell resist rate.

And yeah, it would be nice if wands worked on talents like that. Be nice if Shadow wands worked with Vampiric Embrace and Shadow Weaving and such =-p Though, being stuck to using only one kind of wand would sort of suck.

Exactly, Tiane. You sum my thoughts up well.

I'd like to add that I *do* group, and I group a lot. I frequently will see someone in area that I'm wanting to do a quest in, and I'll ask them if they'd like to join me to do the quest. I do it all the time. But what I don't like is when I need 3 Furbolg Brutes to finish my quest, can't find any for 10 mins because nothing but Furbolg Mystics are spawning... finally find a campfire with 3 of them around it and I can't single pull any of them, decide to solo the camp by myself to finish off the quest, and some d00d runs by as I'm fighting and gets the kill on 2 of the 3 Brutes that I needed. That doesn't help me at all; they just took 2 quest mobs that I needed. I usually say "thanks" when someone does that because I realize they were just trying to help, but I'm thinking to myself "ya, thanks for ganking my quest mobs... now I gotta run around for another 10 minutes trying to find 2 more Brutes."

And additionally: some folks do it honestly just to be nice --- others do it for another reason. They don't admit it, but you know what they're doing. I've seen people near at a campfire of 3 mobs, and they look like they're surveying the situation... kinda moving around a little. They're debating if they can take the camp solo --- Decide that they'll die if they pull three... Then they run off towards some wandering mob instead of tackling the 3 camp. Since they ran off, I assume that they want nothing to do with it and are leaving to do their own thing, so I don't ask them if they want to group. Then I pull the camp to take on all 3 (because I think I can pull it off) and all of a sudden the previous dude re-appears; peels a mob off me. He just got a free single pull at my expense and he can always say that he thought I was in trouble and just wanted to help.

This thread was made to whine? :rolleyes:

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Well, there's also the fact that not everyone is working on a quest. And if all you feel like doing at the moment is finishing off level X, grouping with someone else is a bad idea, as it kills your experience. It's not quite as bad with three+ people as you're getting a (minor) group bonus then, but you really need to be chain killing elites at that point to make resonable experience.

And Oddjob, 2 seconds != instant, wands are also not instant. 2 seconds is a lot slower than instant applied/tapping damage.


Well, it kills your experience? LOL - like a zillion others I was max level and AA grinding in EQ for a long time, I am happy to enjoy the ride; hence, getting a little less xp in WoW is the least of my concerns. More so with regards to mobs especially, since most xp comes from quest completion. Seriously, how anti-social does that sound? "Sorry, can't group with you as you cost me experience"...okayyyyyy :rolleyes:

Regarding the original post: as pointed out earlier, you can't ks in WoW - you tag it, your xp....but if you have 3 mobs on you, and you fully intend to kill all 3, but haven't yet gotten around to tagging a mob...well, sorry, by definition the mob is up for grabs.

I don't know what kind of game you people want to play when the whole world is your private xp zone. Sure, some people are asses, but the vast majority of situations can be resolved by a slight change in attitude from both parties. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

As for assuming that I'll complain about people watching me die... well I'd just as soon you NOT assume what I'm going to say especially when it's hypocritical to do so. Take the argument as given, dont project false conclusions just because you have no real basis to support interfering in someone elses combat.

If you MUST help someone, do it unobtrusively... healing, or debuffing, whatever. I'm not without compassion, but if you insist on "helping" someone dont expect thanks if you killsteal them, or if you interfere with what was a fun challenging fight and make it trivial for them. Grinding over and over on single mobs gets boring - that's *your* EQ mindset speaking. It has nothing to do with an EQ mindset, and everything to do with courtesy. You dont go interfering with someone else unless they ask for it. It's rude, obnoxious and arrogant to assume that your help is either needed or desired.

Wow...I'm just flabbergasted. Did you always feel this way about things and I never noticed it or is this a new bitterness brought on by interference in your WoW gameplay? If its the latter, I'm really sorry to see it.

Point 1: Who is assuming what? If your post is directed at me, I'd kindly ask you to point out where I said that YOU would be complaining if people watched you die. I said that there would be another thread in this one's place on this topic instead. I have no doubts that it would be filled with DIFFERENT people bitching, then this one has. Most likely it would be people like myself complaining... So quit complaining about assumptions if you are making your own false ones.

Point 2: So anyone who provides help without being asked is now arrogant and rude? I really hope that you are the exception to the rule and most people don't take this tact. If you don't mind my asking, do you apply this same lesson to real life? Someone holds a door open for you? Arrogant and rude? Someone stops when they see you have a flat tire on the highway and asks if you need help? Arrogant and rude? You drop a huge stack of papers on the sidewalk and they start blowing every which way and I help you scoop some of them up...Arrogant and rude? A couple bullies have stopped you in a park and are pushing you around and giving you trouble...if I intercede I'm being arrogant and rude? I mean seriously wtf?

This won't be the first time we've disagreed on something, but I really didn't think we had a difference in world outlook this big. :(

Anyway, as I said, *I* go out of my way to help WITHOUT taking kill credit from anyone, but I still don't think there is any cause for anger when someone isn't as thoughtful unless its obvious they are just leeching off you or griefing you and not actually trying to help you.

I'd really love it if more people would jump in here though. Are folks like Tiane and Fawnae in the minority on this one? or the majority? If I've been secretely annoying a whole server of people any time I help them out, it would be good to know. =)

Also, just a thought, I guess this is a side effect from how single player oriented the game design of WoW seems to be. I really did feel like I was playing a single player game, with the quest centric focus and ease of soloing when I first leveled up a character back in beta. So maybe this just amplifies the problem since some people feel as if someone is reaching in and fiddling with their single player game?

*shrugs*

Its still a MMOG.

Wow, lots of opinions over this issue. I personally ask if someone needs help if they look like they're in trouble. If someone jumps in, I usually assume they're helping and say thanks. If I don't need help, I usually send them a whisper to let them know. They can't read my mind, and vice versa :-)

Also, you can't control what other people are going to do, other than acting proactively to try and prevent whatever it is that you are worried about (i.e.--tapping all the mobs on you). Some people will see things the way you do, and others won't; it's often not worth stressing yourself out over trying to make others see your point of view.

Don't get me wrong--I think people stealing chests when you've spent time clearing to it are rude and inconsiderate. I usually tell them that (i.e.--/w <name>: Hmmm...that was a tad rude, don't you think?). People stealing mobs that I didn't tap--I didn't claim it, and it might set me back on a quest, but the mobs *will* respawn and I'll eventually get the quest done. No big deal. It's not like EQ, where the mobs won't respawn for 24+ hours (god, do you guys remember that? ick). Yeah, the person may have gotten a "free ride" by claiming one of your mobs on what would have been a sticky pull for them, but honestly...meh. You can't stop it from happening if you don't tap all your mobs, as frustrating as that is for you.

Also, I haven't lost exp or loot from a mob that I've tapped, so I'm not sure why that's happening to you :-(

Regardless, I understand your frustration/irritation; I hope you find a way to deal with it so your gameplay isn't affected by those jerks out there :-) Best of luck to you!

Well, it kills your experience? LOL - like a zillion others I was max level and AA grinding in EQ for a long time, I am happy to enjoy the ride; hence, getting a little less xp in WoW is the least of my concerns. More so with regards to mobs especially, since most xp comes from quest completion. Seriously, how anti-social does that sound? "Sorry, can't group with you as you cost me experience"...okayyyyyy

Not everyone has. Not everyone playing WoW comes from EQ or even an MMORPG background. And even if they do, they may care more about getting their X character to Y level as fast as they can. Especially if it's not their first. Most experience only comes from quests at the lower levels, once you get past 30+ you can still make alright experience off quests, especially if you pick them carefully, but as a general rule you can make more grinding than doing every quest you come across. And people being anti-social is hardly new in an MMORPG.

Good for you. I personally find that my wand got resisted around half the time (purely subjective), and even if it's 10% of the time, that still makes it UNRELIABLE as a method of xp-locking a mob. Mind you, suppression (reduce resists of shadow spells by 10%) was one of the first talents I picked up, and it doesnt work on wands, so that may be why I notice a higher resist rate as opposed to my spells. (Note also that it doesnt work for immolate either, the spell you listed...)

Wands work just fine. I played around with a mage and a warlock last night and none of us had trouble. You need to keep your skill up (which is a flaw of WoW). I listed immolate as a fast casting dd/dot. You're going to get some resist and their going to get some resist. Nothing is 100% reliable. Spells and ranged weapons are just as good as any.

And where did I say anything about a camp?
Where did I say anything about grinding over and over on mobs? If that wasn't directed at me then so be it.

And you take the risk of annoying the person you are "helping" if you do so without being asked. So why take the chance?

You're skipping over the key point of all my post: "I don't interfer with other people unless they are in **obvious** need of help. "


It's not MY job to dance with game mechanics to ensure that I get the kill credit for mobs that I'm obviously engaged with, to protect them from "helpers" who are running along and decide to help themselves to "practicing their weapons skills" or "building up rage" or whatever lame excuse works for that particular class.

I agree, that's the perfect world, however the standard bnet crowd doesn't understand this. Either learn to adapt, move to a low population server, or petition for WoW single player.

And Oddjob, 2 seconds != instant, wands are also not instant. 2 seconds is a lot slower than instant applied/tapping damage.

You're never going to beat a Druid or warrior, welcome to WoW. You have the tools that allow you to pull just as fast as anyone else. Atleast you're not a paladin.

Not everyone has. Not everyone playing WoW comes from EQ or even an MMORPG background. And even if they do, they may care more about getting their X character to Y level as fast as they can. Especially if it's not their first. Most experience only comes from quests at the lower levels, once you get past 30+ you can still make alright experience off quests, especially if you pick them carefully, but as a general rule you can make more grinding than doing every quest you come across. And people being anti-social is hardly new in an MMORPG.


I agree - people being anti-social isn't new and not everyone has played mmorpg's before. But the original poster has, and I would expect that people with some experience would lead the way in being community-minded, patient and more open to grouping. Additianlly, I would also expect that they are familiar with this kind of behaviour and how ranting about it achieves little. The game mechanics are in place to minimise the effect of complete griefers, and that's altogether different.

Xand, RL comparisons simply dont work in this situation. There is no way that you can tell by looking at me in WoW when I'm fighting two mobs whether I need help or not. In RL you can obviously make better judgements. If you really want a metaphor, compare it to someone working on their flat tire looking calm and in control, with all the proper tools at hand, proceeding quickly through the process of changing the tire. You are driving by and notice this competent looking person changing their tire, perhaps humming a little song. Do you stop and bother him/her?

Point is, in WoW you cant tell if a person is struggling or not unless they specifically ask for the help. And I already pointed out that if you want to toss a heal or something then thats probably fine, although it is still interfering. But if the person only seems to be in trouble in WoW and they are, in fact, not, then by interfering you take the chance at pissing them off. Why take the chance? What is the affirmative reasoning for interfering? To save them 2 minutes *if* they die versus the chance that they dont want/need assistance. I would rather people err on the side of caution.

This isnt some huge deal, its an annoyance. Again, this isnt the case in EQ or many other MMOG's where the death penalty is huge and "helping" behavior is in fact a boon for everyone... possibly saving someone an hour or many hours of time at the risk of annoying them is a lot different than possibly saving someone 2 minutes.

It is kind of amusing, now that I look back on this thread, how even I myself view the kind of acceptable behaviour differences which exist between EQ and WoW, and what a surprising effect the nonexistant death penalty in WoW has on comminty building. Kind of interesting.

Well, I disagree that there is no way to tell if you need help. Its pretty easy to watch the progression of health/mana/rage/etc bars of yourself and the mobs to see how a fight is going. ;) Especially if its a priest, druid or warrior since I've played so much of each of them I pretty much know everything they are capable of. Its true I would have less of an idea of what tricks a warlock or hunter would pull out to save themselves though, since not only haven't I played them really, but I rarely party with them.

I do see your point about the nature of this game lending itself to NOT helping tho. I'll bear that in mind. The thing is...even in this game, if someone were to walk up behind me when I am obviously losing a fight, I wouldn't think much of them if they didn't lend a hand. ;) So basically I'm projecting. *shrugs*

This thread cracks me up. If you have tagged the mob for even 1 point of damage, it's your exp and loot, and anyone who casts on it is helping you, not KSing you. When I see someone in trouble, or even might possibly be in trouble, I target the mobs, if they have taken damage then I help, but if they are full health I leave it till he tags it then I help.

I am not sure you have to do 1pt of damage to tag it. I had a Ranger get off an arrow while I was still casting Starfire so I let him have it and I got the exp. So the act of casting itself may tag it. But then of course it could have just been lag.

Also last night while farming Wildvine in STV, there was a group of 3 (or 3 individuals since they didn't work like a group) that were running around also killing trolls. I usually try to avoid the other players so they don't claim KS since I am higher level but I had a runner pull the 3 guards. I rooted the warrior, and moonfired all 3 and concentrated on the healer while the runner died to my moonfire on him. The 3 players ran over and watched me kill all 4 but never interfered. I just assumed they were waiting for me to die so they could clean up since they did the same to a Troll Rogue and took his mobs when he died. Unfortunately I disappointed them and survived all of the mobs. Instead of KS in WoW we are developing vultures.

The 3 players ran over and watched me kill all 4 but never interfered. I just assumed they were waiting for me to die so they could clean up since they did the same to a Troll Rogue and took his mobs when he died. Unfortunately I disappointed them and survived all of the mobs. Instead of KS in WoW we are developing vultures.

/agree

*************
Also the 1-pt damage thing can be completely exploited unless I don't understand it correctly:

From what I understand whoever tags a mob with 1-pt of damage first gets the "tag" and the xp as long as they don't die, right? So if I'm level 24 and fighting in an area with level 23-24 mobs... and some level 18 comes by and right before I engage a mob, he insta-nukes it for minimal damage and gets 1-point of damage, somehow.... then I kill it. He's gonna get xp, right? A level 18 receiving xp for a level 24 mob is gonna be pretty helacious.

Can this happen? Do I fully understand the 1-pt of damaging tagging?

This thread cracks me up. If you have tagged the mob for even 1 point of damage, it's your exp and loot, and anyone who casts on it is helping you, not KSing you. When I see someone in trouble, or even might possibly be in trouble, I target the mobs, if they have taken damage then I help, but if they are full health I leave it till he tags it then I help.


What may have happened here is the shot missed. The shooter has to actually hit the mob for the "tag" to occur.

Im not sure where the poster somewhere further up said someone ks'd their mob while supposedly helping. If he was fighting it already there should never have been a problem. I routinely help folks while wandering through...if the health bar is down signifying it is theirs. There is no fear of me stealing and it kills their target faster


/shrug

No controversy.

/agree

*************
Also the 1-pt damage thing can be completely exploited unless I don't understand it correctly:

From what I understand whoever tags a mob with 1-pt of damage first gets the "tag" and the xp as long as they don't die, right? So if I'm level 24 and fighting in an area with level 23-24 mobs... and some level 18 comes by and right before I engage a mob, he insta-nukes it for minimal damage and gets 1-point of damage, somehow.... then I kill it. He's gonna get xp, right? A level 18 receiving xp for a level 24 mob is gonna be pretty helacious.

Can this happen? Do I fully understand the 1-pt of damaging tagging?

Yes...typical amongst these type of folks is they will hit with an insta or wand shot. Right before you strike. They then move along in the same general area killing trying to keep a low profile. This happens alot if you are routinely fighting multis. They will tag the ones youre not on.

Scenario 1: You would hate me and I wouldn't care but if I see someone who is perceptibly in trouble, I'll take a shot or two to relieve them of their trouble. It doesn't matter that it would only save 2 minutes from their corpse run. If, with my help, they could avoid that, it seems good enough to me. In my view, they'll hate me if I don't help either for "letting them die."

It is difficult to tell when someone is in trouble. I try to make the best guess.

I also believe that the rule for tagging is: First to hit the creep gets the tag. If someone else does 80% of the damage it changes to them. I can't guarantee that is the case, but I do know that clause number one is abused to some extent.

It is abused in the way described, a wand blast or shot and the person moves on letting you do their work or in the case with my wife last week. An orc was following her around and whenever she and her sister moved toward a creep he'd dash up and thwack it once just as they began their attack. If I were there I'd suggest faking him out but I wasn't.

Scenario 2: I am on your side about asshats who wait for you to die and cleanup, hasten your death and cleanup or just wait for you to do all the cleaning up and they take the prizes. I am lucky on two accounts. I have a pet take care of any guardians while I pick up the node and then help the pet finish off the guardians or, I'm often in a group so I just tell someone to go loot it while we finish off the guardians. Both are just workarounds for a sad situation that stems from internet anonymity and lack of reprocussions for bad behavior.

I also believe that the rule for tagging is: First to hit the creep gets the tag. If someone else does 80% of the damage it changes to them. I can't guarantee that is the case, but I do know that clause number one is abused to some extent.

No, I can have an equal level friend tag a mob for 1-5% damage, and then finish it off, and they'll get normal experience for it. If I had a level 10 person do the same thing, they'd only get a fraction of the experience. If someone too many levels above you is "helping" out, then you lose experience.

I help people, I'm a rogue so my only choice is to help kill. I make sure I only kill tagged mobs. Its not that hard to see if they're grey or not. I've even helped the opposite faction at times. Not once have I received a /rude or stop KS message from the person. I receive bows, "thanks", and can you help me with the boss real quick requests.

I only help casters when its either very obvious they need help (mobs much higher than them and they are dropping quickly) or if they are out of mana. I will watch a fight and not help until then. I understand it is no fun to have someone trivialize the content for you. Thats why I wait until its obvious you are going to lose. Personally I don't like spending 5 minutes walking to my corpse vs the 20 seconds it would take to re-earn the lost xp. It's just something nice to do, and I always appreciate it when someone treats me with the same respect and assistance when I'm in trouble.

Getting a herb or mine or chest taken from you after you cleared to it is always frustrating :(

It looks like folks cleared up the confusion about tapping mobs for you. I really don't understand why there are folks who get frustrated by people helping them out, the only reason I can see is if you were testing something and the outside help throws off your test. Otherwise, what is the problem? Even if all it saves you is a 2 min run to your corpse, it still saves you time. Just make sure you tap all the mobs and if someone comes by to help, then the worst they can do is take a little exp away. Now if someone is following you around (ie harassing you) then that is totally different, but if someone is passing through and pulls a mob off you or drops a heal when you look overwhelmed, I don't see the big deal really. In fact, I always laughed at folks trying to KS me who didn't understand how tapping worked. I would tap a mob and they would start attacking it to try and KS me and I would let them kill it.

Anyway, I have yet to have a complaint when I have helped someone who appeared to be in trouble and I have been happy when others have helped me.

Heh, speaking of people helping you....

Last night I was in Western Plaguelands, just passing time by working on my faction and trying to get some scourgestones, killing the lower level ghouls and skeletons just east of Chillwind Point. I was standing on the path which leads to the Ruins of Andorhal. Had a mob almost dead, maybe 15% health left. This rogue comes running at high spped from the Ruins, and as he passes by me he backstabs my mob, and I think nothing of it. I pull another mob and then the next thing I know three higher level mobs from the Ruins that must have been chasing the rogue all of a sudden make a beeline to me and beat the crap out of me. Had to use nature's swiftness and HT to avoid dying, and cheetah my way outta there.

So, the morale of the story is, even if you think you might be helping someone, sometimes you aren't :p

As mentioned elsewhere, the only thing that aggravates me is when I have more than one mob (and I intend on killing them all) and someone comes and takes one.

It's one thing farming gorillas in STV for teeth and having one "busy" while you kill the other (high demand mobs). It's another when it's some random mob somewhere and you're farming cloth.

Do me a favor. Don't do me any favors. Heh.

Xand, RL comparisons simply dont work in this situation. There is no way that you can tell by looking at me in WoW when I'm fighting two mobs whether I need help or not. In RL you can obviously make better judgements. If you really want a metaphor, compare it to someone working on their flat tire looking calm and in control, with all the proper tools at hand, proceeding quickly through the process of changing the tire. You are driving by and notice this competent looking person changing their tire, perhaps humming a little song. Do you stop and bother him/her?

Point is, in WoW you cant tell if a person is struggling or not unless they specifically ask for the help. And I already pointed out that if you want to toss a heal or something then thats probably fine, although it is still interfering. But if the person only seems to be in trouble in WoW and they are, in fact, not, then by interfering you take the chance at pissing them off. Why take the chance? What is the affirmative reasoning for interfering? To save them 2 minutes *if* they die versus the chance that they dont want/need assistance. I would rather people err on the side of caution.

I find this ... exhasperating! Maybe its a guy chivalry thing, maybe its a Boy Scout thing, maybe its just simply part of being a decent human being, BUT if I see you are low life and I try to help you, and you have the NERVE to bitch at me for doing so.... you really need to head back to your single person shooters or RTS's where you dont have to deal with any human interaction again.

Live and learn, I guess. The other day I had a nice quiet pond with lots of stuff to kill, was mine for hours. A shaman comes up and starts killing some of them. Cool, np, there is plenty to go around. Stupid shaman dies, so I go over and res him. He accepts my res, pops back up, doesnt say a word, and continues killing. He died again shortly after, quess what I did?

They probably saw you pull 4 mobs and thought you needed help. Were just trying to be friendly by grabbing a mob you hadn't tapped yet.


Hi everyone new to MMOG entirely. Got a 29 druid and am really thrillled to have found these boards. Thanks for providing and posting...

Anyway, as a newbie I would be operating under the assumption that you needed/wanted help, just as Oddjob has pointed out. I try to FF and starfire the mobs who are on you already and don't try to draw any of the others. I'm not interested in taking your kills just decreasing your risk AND I'm not particularly interested in increasing mine by aggroing your enemies. ;)

If you are pulling multiply mobs you are probably in bear form use enrage toss a quick swipe to flag all the mobs and you set even if someone tries to help you. If you are in caster form and are fighting multiples tab around and hit each with a moonfire to tag them, by the time you are done with the first they will be about 2/3 to 1/2 in health due to the dot and your thorns.