View Full Forums : Druid now able to beat paladin


Aitrus
03-24-2005, 02:53 PM
I need to experiment more, but I am certain we can take paladins out now with proper timing.

Before all I could do really was bear + regrowth, and it didnt take long before i was skewered.

With swiftshifting and frenzied regeneration, we may be able to win a good portion of druid v pally fights.

Will comment further once I've tested it more, but the basic difference is we can survive longer, not lose nearly as much mana for doing the shift-heal-shift, and put out some reasonable dps with cat form.

The trick is timing mana properly. I lost my duel just because I picked a bad time to try for 5 pt rip and failed to use barkskin properly when I came out to heal... but I had a near-full mana bar and still hadn't used innervate, the pally was struggling and spending all mana every time it hit about 1/2 full to get his hp back. Just need to pour on the damage (moonfire spam?) as soon as his mana runs out, force him to burn his special crap, and once his timers are all out polish him off.

But just by bear+healing, you should never die to a pally as far as I can tell. It's more the problem of getting the needed dps to actually kill him.

I imagine a feral druid could do this with ease, im full WH restore-spec.

chloee
03-24-2005, 03:06 PM
I never bothered with it since they are on our side :P I find Shaman's much less durable than Paladins, but then of course they have that entire DPS thing going for them eek.

Archnawan
03-24-2005, 04:34 PM
Yeah, I made a post about Pally's being impossible but I'm going to go look for one again. The best I could do before the patch was beating one about 4 levels below me. (excepting retards which are easy to spot)

I don't even think I'll need swiftshift though, I think frenzied regen will prove to be enough to make the difference.

Aitrus
03-24-2005, 04:41 PM
frenzied regen is 1x/3mins. Not enough to beat a well-geared pally. It's swiftshifting that makes it possible.

The only way to fight a paladin is bear form, and even then they drop your hp at a reasonable rate (faster than you drop their's usually). At 800 mana a shift and 900 mana a regrowth, it doesnt take long before you're screwed and can't shift-heal-shift anymore. Swiftshift drops that shifting cost to like 550. Frenzied regen lets you build mana up by rage, so that you aren't just burning it like crazy all the time.

Sincerely doubt you'll do much better vs a pal w frenzied regen alone. Swiftshift is the core of making it work imo.

Starky
03-25-2005, 10:28 AM
Not enough stuns/damage still. Pally fight will be neverending.

Arkanthos
03-25-2005, 05:31 PM
Frenzied regen is great, but it's not perfect. For one, at lvl 55, I'm getting 150hp per 10rage. Over 10 sec, with a full bar that's 1500hp. Not bad, but only 1/4 of my 3800hp. BarkSkin... the best way I can see to use BarkSkin in practice is basically this. Fight in bear/Dire bear, bash --> shift to biped --> Barkskin --> healing toutch --> regrowth/rejuv (depending on whether HT does a full heal --> back to bear. Smack him for a while generate a tun of rage and hit your frenzied regen to hold you over till you can repeat the previous process. You can insert a moonfire anywhere in the middle of that, or if you are daring, a starfire. The awesom thing is that you can do all of that long sequence and shift to bear while still having 8-10 sec of barkskin on ya.

I've tried this about 8 times, and 6/8 ended up in wins. The other 2 went on so long we both just said screw it. (~25-35 min). If you choose this strategy, be warned. It's possible to fight a Paly for upwards of 30-45 min in one duel. And in that time, I repeated the whole process (long, then the regen = 1 lap of process) a total of 10 times.

Glyss
03-26-2005, 02:26 PM
What's the purpose of bashing your opponent if you're just going to use Barkskin right after? That makes no sense. Also, Healing Touch is already 3.5 seconds without Barkskin, WITH Barkskin it's going to be about 4.5 seconds which is a really long time in pvp. Even with the damage mitigation of Barkskin, extra long casting time on heals could end the battle for you very quickly giving the pally extra time to stun you to interrupt the heal and then possibly finish you with a Seal. What I CAN see Barkskin being useful for is rooting the pally so you can get a little distance to heal and reapply moonfire. I wouldn't suggest Starfiring simply for the reason that their heals are more mana efficient than our nukes, and then there is always the resist possibility.

It's not hard to channel a heal through their hits with Nature's Focus. The problem is they stun and interrupt your heal before it finishes. So seeing how you Barkskin to Healing Touch yourself just seems pointless to me.

My suggestion for fighting a pally is to note when they use their stuns and heals. A good pally will wear you down with LoH and Immune spells and wait till you get low on hp and try to heal before they stun + seal you to end the fight. After they use a stun, be aware that they have no other way of interrupting your heals for a short while after.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Archnawan
03-28-2005, 02:52 PM
800 to 550 saves 250 mana and that for a lv 60. At lv 48 I'm getting about 50 mana per tick so about 10 seconds to make that back. At 60 I would have to assume even better regen so probably 6 to 8 seconds. I'm betting the frenzied regen will give you the extra 6 seconds. Also considering that unless you can root the pally (which according to you is not possible) your getting hit while in caster which is not good. To me this means you want to minimize shifts for damage control and mana regen making frenzied more valuable than swiftshifting for pally fighting.

Also, 3 minutes in a fight between healers is not that long. NS is generally regarded as mandatory and its 3 minutes too. I think it would be pretty common to get two uses in a fight considering to win you have to run them out of mana.

Personally I think swiftshifting will shine in a fight vs. cloth wearers where you might want to hit cat for dps and then shift to heal then immediately back to cat. You won't be spending long in cat vs a mage or a preist so you'll likely save enough mana on shifts to make the difference.

Aidon
03-28-2005, 08:36 PM
A pally with the right spec will be able to regen enough mana to give keep himself alive long enough for his free mana 3/4 LoH heal to refresh a second time, and moonfire won't kill him fast enough, spamming moonfire against him, even if he's OOM and out of tricks will be a loosing mana battle. Cleanse is much cheaper to cast than moonfire hehe.

Paladin vs any of the three healing classes in a duel is just about an excercise in futility, and a snoozefest if the gear is on par. Ultimately whoever has the better gear will win.

hertzsae
03-28-2005, 09:26 PM
I'm at work and firewalled, but a new stategy just occured to me. Wondering if anyone has tried this.
Start the fight in cat form after throwing on a regrowth/rejuv and get 5 combo points. Then do the standard bear/biped heal and wear them down fight. Then when they let themselves get a little too low, bash->biped->cat->Ferocious Bite->biped->moonfire spam. I'm not sure with if there would be enough time to get that all off, but it would allow us to go for a finish while they had a little bit more health.

Auric
03-29-2005, 06:47 AM
You would have to have intensity + wolfshead helm to have enough energy to launch the fero bite as a surprise.

Aitrus
03-29-2005, 10:02 AM
K i tried last night and it was not possible for me to beat the 60 pal I was duelling.

The basic gist of the duel is that we have to make them run out of mana.

Unfortunately if they use blessing of wisdom (+30 mana every 5s), seal of wisdom (wep can proc for +59 mana), and divine favour (auto-crit heal every 2 mins), they will not run out of mana ever vs a druid. We cannot do enough dps to make their mana go down. If you try fighting them in cat, you die much faster than they do, in bear you can go toe-to-toe, but you just cannot damage them fast enough to outrun their mana-regen.

Maybe if they use different seals/blessings it could still be possible, but if they use their mana stuff we don't have much of a chance ><

chloee
03-29-2005, 11:03 AM
When I duel, I duel to practice for fighting Horde. As such, I usually don't duel Paladins but when I do, my same rules would apply: each person must use realistic strategies. I don't care if they have a specific strategy for a 1v1 duel with a certain class. I duel Warlocks, but since they won't use Felhunter in the field, then we don't use it in duels; Paladin's don't use their mana buffs; and Hunters don't open with Ice Trap (they can run up to you at the beginning of a duel and drop a trap out of combat- not the FD+trap combo). There are various other things that apply to other classes too. I don't enforce these things, its just kinda understood between everyone who duels in our group. One of my rules as a Druid is to not use Thorns since it breaks hibernate on Hunter's pets and shifted Druids, as it works now I wouldn't have it on while PvPing.

So anywho, Paladin's are a long fight either way for sure, but in a realistic setting I think it just comes down to the player and, to a lesser extent, their gear. My PvP adage has come to be that any class can beat any other class. I will add, however, that some classes can be disadvantaged in dueling such as Hunters who you can force to start at short range or Rogues who you know are coming. I remember before we decided to play more realistically sitting on my Priest with shield up just waiting for the Rogue to drop stealth. The funny thing is that the dynamic of the fight then changed: I'd be waiting with Shield up and then they'd just Sap me and let it wear off... now has that EVER happened in cross-faction fighting? lol.

From a gear point-of-view, Frenzy has given me a nice comfort-level against offensively built Paladins. Some of them even blow their mana on the shock thing hehe, but we know where that goes. When they don't have a very high Spirit, since they have more Str/Agi in its place, I can eventually wear them down. The Pals with more Int/Spi are much more difficult to grind down in the same way, as Aitrus says the mana regen makes that strategy prohibitive. So perhaps there is another way? I'll have to think if over and also see how well I can use kitty against them.

One last question: does anyone know if you can interrupt a Paladin's heal with Feral Charge when they have a shield up?

<3Chloee

Aitrus
03-29-2005, 11:11 AM
In the same vein, I keep my warden staff on even when dueling caster classes. That extra AC is 100% useless versus them, but the warden staff is what I would actually be holding on to in real pvp. If I wanted to cheeze it up I could throw on my argent crusader or twig of the world tree when not facing a melee opponent.

On the other hand I do usually cheeze the duel up slightly. When the 3, 2, 1 counter starts I throw a regrowth on, add a nature's grasp, and go bear form. Smart rogues will wait out the regrowth, but they aren't usually patient enough on the grasp. This is somethign that I obviously wouldnt do in real pvp. Most rogues i can beat starting in caster anyways, but a really good and strong geared rogue I need that little advantage at the start to maintain control of the fight.

Aidon
03-30-2005, 10:36 PM
Actually, a paladin is going to use whatever blessings and auras are best suited to their current foe. We can switch on the fly easily and rapidly. If I'm going up against a druid, I'd quite simply put up all of my mana regen and out last them (switching from mana regen to concentration aura to pop off heals, then swapping back). I have constant damage with my weapon. Eventually the druid will realize he isn't going to win and go cheetah form heh.

On the plus side for a druid...a paladin can't kill a Druid who decides he doesn't want to stand there and die.

Aitrus
03-31-2005, 10:05 AM
Tauren druids can definitely beat paladins. The only reason I struggle is because I don't have a 3rd stun. Once the pally gets lowish on hp, I try to stay back from him a bit, attacking by jumping through him and running on, when he goes for his heal i feral charge. Then I either do a quick shift-moonfire-shift, or just keep attacking. When he tries to heal again, I bash. Then I shift and moonfire-spam. Never works. I get him within a fraction of death but then the stun ends and he gets his heal off.

I have one thing left to try, which is to moonfire spam until the stun wears out, then as soon as its off get back into bear and do a 2nd feral charge. Not sure that the timer will be up by then is the only thing, but I have 5/5 furor so the rage is always there for me if it works. I can then shift out and finish spamming ftw.

Aidon
03-31-2005, 02:56 PM
I don't know..every tauren druid I ever tried to fight just ran away unless I was outnumbered lol

Aitrus
03-31-2005, 03:26 PM
Warstomp > Shadowmeld.

Shadowmeld is practically useless for druids, if we want to stealth we have cat form >< All its good for is when you need to drink/eat, you can meld to make sure nobody bothers you. Otherwise pointless.

Darke
05-16-2005, 05:27 PM
1. Was beating lvl 60 paladins at lvl 60 without any WH gear, before Frenzied.
2. With Frenzied and Bash, if you can't last 2 minutes in bear form while Nature's Swiftness is on cooldown, giving you an instant healing touch when you shift out to heal, then hang up your druid and go make a rogue or something else easy to pvp with.
3. Paladins cannot out mana you, no matter what aura is on. Save your innervate for when they need to switch to mana regen, that's when they're on the ropes and scrambling to outlast you. Dump some moonfires on them, make them use that lay on hands. Once you see the lay on hands, it's your duel now, and only you can mess it up.

Badgemagus
05-16-2005, 05:48 PM
In my dealings 1vs1 with Paladins I have won because..

1. The paladin mana dumped on me.

2. I was patient realizing that they are a survivable class just as much if not more than we are.

3. I timed bash, warstomp, feral charge, and spam'd moonfire at the right time.

What would we do w/o Demoralizing shout and Dire Bear.. In mass PvP I'll attack someone other than the paladin first.

Just curious, but are all of you ALWAYS trying to get behind your opponent in PvP? I win so many of my fights just because I am hitting them more than they are hitting me. I LOVE people who just stand there in one spot and take hits.

Kabaoum
05-16-2005, 10:28 PM
I took a tauren druid to 40 before I went to the alliance side on a diff server, I really miss my warstomp >< though shadowmeld does have it's uses, it just isn't as powerfull