View Full Forums : The "overpowered" druid


Aitrus
03-29-2005, 10:15 AM
The last few days I've discovered the Ironforge fight club. Right outside the gates of IF people stand around dueling. At any given time there are 6-20 players just practicing through duels.

Hitherto I haven't dueled much at all, spending my time actively pking horde. So I decided to try my hand at some duels.

The only classes I do not routinely beat are shadow priests and paladins. Every other class I have at least a 90% success rate. Not once did I lose to a hunter, mage, rogue (okay I lost two battles vs rogues) or warrior. Warlocks only challenge me if they have their felhounds out, and even then I win over 50%.

What is hilarious is the griping that ensues after I hand some of these classes their asses on a platter. They cry foul about the overpowered druid, and how we need to be nerfed.

Now I don't know that we were ever a weak pvp class, but for all those who said we didn't get any better from the patch all I can say is lol. Frenzied regen = godly. Swiftshift = godly. Ferocious bite is a tad mediocre, but im sure with good agil/crit chance its much more impressive, and barkskin doesn't have a lot of utility in pvp just because of the 1s addon to casting times, but is a nice pve skill.

I can stand in caster form and let a rogue get the first strike on me and still win easily.

I can usually win a duel without even tapping into half of my 5k mana pool.

In actual pvp my wide array of abilities makes me virtually unstoppable. Unless you're a shaman, you won't kill me because I can cheetah and flee. Unless you're a priest you won't be getting away from me bc I can root you.

We do have low ass DPS, but we make up for it in so many ways.

Don't be surprised if you start seeing "nerf druid" threads springing up all over the place. We are one of the strongest classes now.

roughcoat
03-29-2005, 10:26 AM
Yes its pretty amazing the numerous and various forms of whining an bad sportsmanship out there.

I think we are strong, even low to middling levels like me at 41 are strong. We should be strong. I think that druids give so much to the players that we support in the game world that we are due a little gratitude, but unfortunately I think 1v1 pvp gives otherwise good natured players some obnoxious form of paranoind amnesia. They forget all the good things we've done for them in team pvp and pve and move right on to our "unfair uberness."

My god ,anyone who has been righteously feared can identify with their feelings of anger at being completely at the enemies mercy, but why do they have to actively encourage weakening us? Doesnt' it make more sense for them to petition Blizz for more love of their own?

Aitrus
03-29-2005, 11:05 AM
Rogues and warriors complain a lot about root too. All classes complain about bear healing (esp priests since its not dispellable)... although one legit bug that came up is that our frenzied regen is not effected by wound poison, and probably not effected by mortal strike either (havent tested that part, but we did see that wound poison had no effect).

In field pvp its moonfire that people whine about a lot, because we can spam the crap out of it for ~200DPS while running.

Now since I managed to dominate most of those duels, I almost feel like there is something overpowered about us. Not to the extent of a paladin or shaman, but we're probably the most powerful of the rest of the classes right now. I hope blizzard does not intend to give us anymore buffs, as we will become a stupid class that just wins because we're overpowered and not because the player has skill.

The exception is I would support some way of making cat more survivable in pvp. its useful for an opener out of stealth, but otherwise just too feeble. In the time it takes to get 5 combo points you'll be sub 50% hp, and if its a class with stuns/silence, that can easily mean doom when you get around to trying a heal. I'd say get rid of the attack power bonus, and give us 200% agility or something more comparable to the bear's AC xfer.

Archnawan
03-29-2005, 12:50 PM
Even before the patch the only class I couldn't beat was a paladin. I rarely duel even level mages, warriors, or hunters cause I know they will be pissed, run to the boards and start screaming nerf. I only fight rogues because I know they think they're gonna kick my ass so I gotta laugh at them. A good preist or warlock can be tough to beat but you'll never get even close to actually dieing if you choose to run.

You should really consider letting some people kill you more often. Go ahead and give them the big head to keep the nerf-sayers to a minimum. Not that I'm worried about a nerf, hell they just got done fixing us!

Crimson13
03-29-2005, 02:37 PM
i wouldn't worry about aitrus letting people kill him... i'm pretty sure i make up for it :)

Honestly, i'm not that good in duels with my druid since i've respecced restoration, though i haven't dueled since the patch, so maybe i'll give it a try tonight :)

quinalla
03-29-2005, 02:41 PM
I am sure there will be posts about it, there are posts about nearly every class and there were posts about druids occasionally before the patch. Typically they were "OMG Moonfire spam needs to be nerfed!!!11"

It doesn't matter though. The devs will not balance the game around duels or 1v1 pvp and I am glad they won't.

howsah
03-30-2005, 12:37 AM
Hehe just a question. My duel success rate is mediocre, 65% at best, but that's because I rarely PVP (i'm on a PVE server) and I don't duel much, either. Anyone have any good tips for taking out certain classes? I've heard different things and want to learn some strategy. I know trying these things out on my own is the best way, but trying something someone else has tried is always good, too!

Leafweir
03-30-2005, 09:44 AM
In field pvp its moonfire that people whine about a lot, because we can spam the crap out of it for ~200DPS while running.

I've parsed this numerous times... it's not 200.

I parsed against level 40 wolves in the Hinterlands, with a beastslaying item (which adds 6 to initial and 6 per tic). Moonfire spam ended up being ~140 DPS, remember this is really best case scenario, low level mob, beast slay. I don't have any balance talents for it but the damage is nowhere near 200dps.

chloee
03-30-2005, 11:32 AM
Moonfire deals 221 dmg at the highest level and is only restrained by the universal spell timer of 1s. As such, you'd expect it to be roughly equal to 221 dps. While its expected that you will lose some of this through not being able to click exactly when the spell refreshes, your number of 140 is around a 35% loss. I suspect this number reflects more upon a bad parser especially concerning the ability for it to account for latency or server-client communication (omg I work in IS :o) ). I'd expect no more than a 10% drop in efficiency if you were spam clicking the button and happened to land outside of the exact refresh moment. Theory doesn't do much good in the real practice of this game, I'll admit that much, but drops like that totally violate them... there must be some other factor affecting it right?

<3Chloee

Gooby
03-30-2005, 02:21 PM
The exception is I would support some way of making cat more survivable in pvp. its useful for an opener out of stealth, but otherwise just too feeble. In the time it takes to get 5 combo points you'll be sub 50% hp, and if its a class with stuns/silence, that can easily mean doom when you get around to trying a heal. I'd say get rid of the attack power bonus, and give us 200% agility or something more comparable to the bear's AC xfer.

200% agi would make cat form most likely overpowered because the crit rates would be insane and everyone would go feral cause they could get 5 point finishers in like 3 hits. Plus we'd have really high dodge and be hard to hit.

There are talents that allow for cat form to get the 5 combo points much faster. Sharpened claws adds 5% crit chance, which doesn't sound like a lot but it helps. (Malice, the rogue equivalent, is often suggested on the rogue boards for people specing in that tree) Blood frenzy would be the key part here for speeding up the 5 point combo. Increase crits, and you get 2 points every time you crit with claw, rake or ravage.


I know I still have much to learn about pvp and the class and all, but I see many people saying that the cat form dps improvement was nice, but not worth respecing for.

Has anyone here actually went 31 points into feral and gotten every cat ability they can, put on agi/str gear and tried to do some pvp action focussing mainly on cat form?

I'd really like to hear from someone who has really gone feral (31+ points and change of gear). It seems like incomplete/unfair data hearing about people trying to pvp in cat form, and then shifting out using innervate in emergencies. I'm currently feral spec'd. I don't even think about trying to pass judgement on my healing abilities because, although very capable at my level, I know they could be better if I focused more on the restoration tree and had int/spirit on all of my gear. Just cause we're jack of all trades doesn't mean we don't have to spec/gear towards one particular branch to truley shine in it.

BGrifter
03-30-2005, 02:30 PM
I don't know that PVP has ever really been the crux of the problems with Druids. We've always been good, and recent changes have just pushed from good to great.

Where the problem lies is PVE, both solo and raiding. After taking a couple months off to play a Mage 'alt' (who's currently about to hit 55) the difference is astounding, it's like going from a Pinto to a Porsche. From what I understand it's a comparable feeling switching to a Rogue, Paladin, Shaman, or Hunter. At 60 it doesn't really matter much anymore, but the reality is we're terrible grinders, recent changes don't do a whole lot to help that. (the cat boost a little I suppose)

On raids, we're healers. Recent changes were nice, the forms are certainly closer to usable now in group settings, but the crux of what we do and who we are on raids is healing. Now we're in a position where any boost to healing would recieve massive public outcry and as the above poster stated fears of the class being overpowered. We've really backed ourselves into a corner on this one, make us better healers (and thus increase our raid desirability) and it unbalances the class, fail to do so and as the numbers of priests continue to grow, we become obsolete.

At this point I really don't know what direction the class is heading, they're rapidly approaching the upper limits of how far they can buff the forms without starting to infringe upon the parent classes, and while our healing is very good, i'm not fully convinced it's where it needs to be to preserve a solid endgame role.

That said, PVPers and people who like to grind instances should be pretty happy with where the class is right now. There are definitely positives, it just feels like there is no coherant vision for the class.

Gooby
03-30-2005, 02:48 PM
I was mainly focusing on the pvp aspect of feral. I realize that currently raiding requires us to be restore.

I think in order to make us not just healers they need to focus more on the 20 25 and 30 lvl talents. They have it set fine with innervate. If you dont go restore you dont get that talent and your healing suffers a bit. If they made the higher lvl feral/balace abilities that powerful (not overpowered of course), it would make us more flexible and not make us better than the base classes that our shifting is based on. If they made the 31 balance talent something that would substantially increase our nuking, and the 31 feral something that substatially increased out feral abilties, they would empower us to be competitive, but not encroach on all the classes at once.

If they were to adjust the actual spells you would get more people would be complaining because every druid could compete with mages, rogues, priests, and warriors all at once. But if you improve the higher lvl talents it forces you to bottleneck yourself into one focus while still maintaining your ability play other roles (just not as well).

I think the key to making us more flexible and not just have one role in high lvl raiding is talents. That way you can have a "cat" druid, "bear" druid, "nuker" druid, and "healer" druid who are all competitive at they role they chose, but not so overpowered that they are competitive at all 4 at once.

Just my opinion feel free to disagree as I'm always willing to learn more about my class :)

Boudicca
03-30-2005, 04:37 PM
We are awesome in duels. No doubt about it. But where it will count - small-scale group PvP - Druids have just as many weakness as they do amazing strengths.

Our major weaknesses lie not in solo or 1v1 PvP, it's group PvP where we have more issues with. While some other classes can survive being teamed up on (Priests, Mages, and Warlocks come immediately to mind), a Druid is toast if he is jumped by more than one player. You can try and cheetah away from them, but chances are the classes fighting you will have a stun or a movement-impairing ability that can let them catch up to you. We can heal yourself fast one time, but even with barkskin you will not outpace the damage done to you by opposing players. Then again, we're not the only classes that can't handle 2v1 or larger odds.

In group PvP, we are Faerie Fire/Root slaves and weak Priest subsitutions, plain and simple. Our job is to get those Rogues, Mages and Priests to stand still long enough for our melee to catch them and kill them. Our heals aren't fast enough to heal a cloth-wearer being bombarded with PC attacks, and we have no shields to save them at the last minute. So we're relegated to backup heal duty for casters and main healers of tanks and melee.

Switching to Bear or Cat form in group PvP is only an alternative when you have plenty of healing from your Priests and Shaman/Paladins - but how often does THAT happen? Not enough on my server, that's for sure.

Oh, you can try and nuke in group PvP, if you don't mind being laughed at. Moonfire spamming will kill runners that are low on health, but that's about all.

Enjoy our 1v1 overpoweredness, but I doubt you will see Druids at the top of the PvP rankings when Battlegrounds and the honor system comes out.

chloee
03-31-2005, 09:03 AM
I'd really like to hear from someone who has really gone feral (31+ points and change of gear). It seems like incomplete/unfair data hearing about people trying to pvp in cat form, and then shifting out using innervate in emergencies. I'm currently feral spec'd. I don't even think about trying to pass judgement on my healing abilities because, although very capable at my level, I know they could be better if I focused more on the restoration tree and had int/spirit on all of my gear. Just cause we're jack of all trades doesn't mean we don't have to spec/gear towards one particular branch to truley shine in it.

I respecced for a short time to a 33 pt feral build until I had to move back to Innervate for my instancing to finish my last few levels to 60. Very roughly speaking, I noticed about a 20-25% increase in my cat DPS, so I found that to be acceptable. At the time I did this spec, I was level 51 and my feral gear gave me 150 agi and 125 str, so my additional DPS from gear wasn't as great as it could have been with a better feral set. The gear and spec pulled me from around 75dps to 100dps.

And in group PvP, I'll have to disagree with you Boudicca. I feel like this game is well-balanced for group PvP and if I were to have to draw odds on what class would be on top of battlegrounds, I'd give everyone 1:1. Of course, this figure doesn't directly reflect on who is the "best" at group PvP but instead takes the group scoring of battlegrounds into account. I'm pretty sure the highest ranked players will be the people who play the most, but on this I'm not certain. For Druids, it seems to me that if you battle rez someone, and heal another person to full, then you've practically doubled the effectiveness of two other people on your team. Also, there is alot to be said of preventing Rogues from stealthing :) I think we'll be one of the last targets on the field as well, at least well behind the cloth casters with their various damaging AE abilities.

<3Chloee

Aitrus
03-31-2005, 10:00 AM
Moonfire: ~ = approximately. I said ~200dps. I don't know exactly what it is. I know each moonfire slaps for around 220, and I crit now and then for ~300. 1000dmg in 5s is nothing to sneeze at, and its instant-cast non-interruptable and usable while moving. Thus its no surprise people complain about it when they get spammed. Which was all I was saying - people bitch about getting mf spammed and cry nerf.

Howsah: scour the boards, there are lots of tips for pvp. I recommended a pvp/duelling strategy board but unless I missed something we never got one.

Cat buff: 200% agility was a random number I pulled out. It could be a 33% increase, I don't care. But better to tie it to agility so we get better dodging and critting than to attack power which basically sucks.

Battlegrounds: Hunters and mages are going to dominate this hands down. When you're talking about huge battles of 40 vs 40, getting into melee range is next to impossible. You charge the line and get spitted by 20 arrows/bullets and a bunch of firebolts or whatever. Hopefully they will be designed so that the best strat is spreading out (i.e. enough multiple target objectives that 5 groups of 5-10 heading to different points is going to be better than 50-100 people staying together and charging up the middle).

Druids in pvp, pve, soloing/raiding:

Low dps + high survivability = slower soloing. This is a fact of our class and will never change. We're not fast at soloing, but we're capable.

Only 2 capable healing classes + very few people playing them = you will be healing in raids. This is a fact of the game and will never change. There are a bunch of other classes that can dps. You are one of two that can heal a group effectively. No point stressing about it, its just the way it is.

1v1 duels/pvp: We are extremely powerful. The only classes that should give us any grief are the uber-classes (pally/sham) and smart shadow priests. The rest are druid-fodder.

Group pvp: In a 5v5ish sized battle druids are the core of the fight. We are hard to kill. Much harder than a priest imo. groups will try to take out the healers first, but if they focus on a druid we have shifting. That means first off we can buff ourselves up by 1k HP and 6-7K AC instantly - and now we can even heal ourselves in this form. snares are the key to pounding a healer down. We can break snares by shifting. And best of all we have mobility. If 3 players want to target me, I can cheetah and outrun them. Thats 3 horde taken out of the immediate fight, and 1 alliance out of the immediate fight. Would leave the rest in a battle of 4v2 in my groups favour. Once the chasers give up and head back, chances are anyone who stayed is dead, and now they face a 5v3.

We are a very strong class right now, the only thing we really deserve is some way to make cat more useful (take stealth req off of pounce?), and bring the feral and balance trees up to speed w the restore tree.

But even asking for those things is stretching right now, as players are starting to say that we are overpowered now and deserve nothing but a nerf.

chloee
03-31-2005, 10:18 AM
I feel more powerful as a Druid now than as my Priest, and I have done quite a bit of PvP and PvE as one. I won't go into the details, but theres my take :)

<3Chloee

Boudicca
03-31-2005, 11:32 AM
A smart group knows how to neutralize a druid in group PvP. In fact, I want to see an Alliance Druid be effective vs. a Horde team with a halfway decent Shaman in the group. Most 5v5 battles I've seen, the opposing side WANTS you to shift to an animal form and tank or run - that's one less healer to worry about for 2-10 seconds, and that's a long time in a pvp battle. If you stay in caster form and after you use Nature's Swiftness, there is NO way you're going to heal any mages or priests fast enough when they are being pounded on by a rogue + mage + hunter pet + shaman windfury.

I'm not saying we aren't powerful in group PvP, because we have our strengths, but we are not overpowered by any means, and our weaknesses actually make us one of the lesser desireable classes for 5v5 fights.

I think Battlegrounds will involve a lot more skirmishing in 5v5 or 10v10 situations than it will large zergfests or 1v1 duel-type fights. And I think Druids will shine in some areas and be severely lacking in others. As it should be, I suppose.

Kulothar
03-31-2005, 12:54 PM
When I am serious about a duel (ie. not doing it one handed while chatting on the phone). I have only been beaten two out of three by a Pally and once by a shaman. But then I don't duel often and I use root/potions and bandages to drag out the combat. I have found that if I can get regrowth off early I just have to outlast them.

Nothing drives an opponent crazier than having to fight through regrowth, thorns, and frenzy just to have me pop out, use a hotkey that cast Tangling roots, Nature Swiftness and Healing touch to be full health again and if my tangling roots proc to have me drop FF and moonfire on them again while I adjust my buffs/potions.

Aitrus
03-31-2005, 02:01 PM
as a general rule using pots/items in duels is considered very noobish.

WRT running in group pvp, I run when people chase me, if they stop obviously I don't keep running like an idiot. And if 1 guy comes at me, he's not gonna kill me so I can just ignore him or root him. It's the fact that the best strat is to bring the healer down first paired with druid mobility that makes us very powerful in group pvp. If you just run away for no reason, well obviously the other side gets the advantage. If they send 2 or mroe people at you and they chase you around in cheetah, then you have the advantage. Catch being that without 2 people on you, you won't be dying anytime soon.

Gooby
04-01-2005, 09:52 AM
Cat buff: 200% agility was a random number I pulled out. It could be a 33% increase, I don't care. But better to tie it to agility so we get better dodging and critting than to attack power which basically sucks.

I know it was a generic number. I was just saying that I think Blizzard hesitates to put an agi bonus because of the fact that it adds to dodge and crits. I think it's a good suggestion, but I also see why they probably hesitate to do it. Does agi add attack power in cat form like it does for rogues?

We are a very strong class right now, the only thing we really deserve is some way to make cat more useful (take stealth req off of pounce?), and bring the feral and balance trees up to speed w the restore tree.

I think they need to focus on the lower end (20, 25, 30) feral/balance stuff to force us to choose focusing on healing or dps. As for pounce goes, rogues would be in an uproar because cheap shot requires stealth. Granted its a longer stun and adds 2 points. They would have to put some kind of cooldown on pounce at least. Otherwise we'd have a 2 second 150 dmg stun lock with one ability. Either that or give us a vanish ability to make it a little more usable. But I don't think we'd get that either.

Didn't they take away a "play dead" ability in beta? Thought I read something about that on another site. I kind of think that would be cool to have. Pounce, fight for a bit, play dead, pounce again? Thats probably why they took it out though :)

Anyways I agree that putting cat form on par with the quality of our other stuff is a good idea. It's just probably a really hard thing to do without overpowering us.

Aitrus
04-01-2005, 09:59 AM
Yeah, even if we dont get any further buffs I think we'll be fine. The only remaining holes are cat form being pretty feeble and the restore tree radically overpowering the other 2 in terms of usefulness.

For me, ferocious bite has done absolutely nothing for the cat. I still use rip as it is much more damage and more reliable. Cat is still great just because of stealth, and opening with ravage+rake+claw+rip is a good way to open a fight. And the fast attack speed is good to interrupt casters. The form just dies so fast and easy that its hard to use it for any amount of time.

But I can live with things the way they are quite easily, and if they nerfed frenzied regen I don't think I'd really complain that much either. Its a very powerful ability that none of us ever asked for.

Badgemagus
04-12-2005, 07:44 PM
For those of you who havent already seen it, search the WoW Forums for a Druid Video by a guy named "Ferahgo". The thread name is "Druid PvP Video:Part 2" I havent seen the first one but this video is VERY impressive.

Jareck
04-12-2005, 10:26 PM
Yeah, he plays on our server and is a fantastic pvp'r. His videos are titled "Gimped?" and "Rootdown". Do a search for Ferahgo Frostwolf Rootdown (or Gimped?) and I'm sure you'll find a link.

Willain
04-12-2005, 11:13 PM
Here's the post with the URLs for the videos.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=146909&tmp=1#post146909

Glyss
04-13-2005, 12:09 AM
Ferahgo is a decent pvper, i wouldn't say fantastic. I've watched some of his vids and there are times when i'm thinking to myself "That was dumb of him, why the hell did he do that?" Also he uses potions in almost every single fight. He is a good pvper no doubt, but after watching his vdeos I can still see that there are several areas he can improve in to be more effective. What bothers me the most about him is that he complains about other players interferring in open pvp. If you want 1v1 and 2v2s and nobody to interrupt, go to an arena for godsakes, but don't complain about other players interferring on a pvp server.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

TheShambler
04-13-2005, 10:16 AM
The only druid pvp vids ive seen are from him so i've nothing to compare his videos to. I would love it if people from this site started making/posting their pvp vids. i might even try and make one myself one day :D

Tyrmal
04-17-2005, 05:18 AM
Barkskin is godly in PvP. I have 80% damage reduction in bear with it and 40% damage reduction in cat with it. make it a point to throw this baby on when you can and youll have noticable pvp advantages.

goa
04-18-2005, 08:26 AM
Heh. Some people take this game WAY to serious. Potions is "noobish". "I want you to run away with three chasers from my team".

Druids being that or that. It's not the class.. it's the person behind the keyboard, that counts.

Gooby
04-18-2005, 10:17 AM
I think you should use any item you have at your disposal. Be it potions, bandaids, or trinkets. The whole "using potions is cheap" thing is basically people whining cause they lost. It's not like Diablo 2 where you can chain potion. There's a reuse timer. I see no reason not to use a potion, especially if you're a class that can't heal, unless you're just trying to handicap yourself. What next? "No fair no sheeping" or "Don't use fear. That's cheep". IMO it's part of the game and if you don't use it you're just asking to lose duels.

goa
04-18-2005, 10:39 AM
Whiners are everywhere. Some people play this game almost entirely for the Duel/PvP aspect. To tell theese people NOT to enjoy the game to the fullest as they want to because they are good at what they do is indeed "noobish" if anything.

If someone drinks the correct potion at the correct moment and you loose because of it. Instead of start whining learn from it and you can do the same next fight. :)

Aitrus
04-18-2005, 11:27 AM
Yeah, we should all spend 5g on pots every duel.

Because winning a duel with pots proves.... that you spend more money on dueling.

wewt.

Put it this way, we start dueling. You chug a stoneshield pot increasing your ac by 1k for 1 minute. I stealth and just sit down and wait 60 seconds.

Was it fun? no. Did it waste resources? yes. Am I going to fight you with your lame-ass potion on? hell no, why should I? I can just wait until you empty your inventory of them, then we can duel 2 hours later finally.

The purpose of dueling is to show who the better pker is, not to show who can spend more money on the duel.

Gooby
04-18-2005, 12:34 PM
So does this mean that rogues shouldn't use vanish or poisons in duels? They take reagents. How bout sharpening stones?
Whats the difference between an alchemist using potions and an engineer using their prototypes? Just cause they're expendable?

You have every right to wait out the potion, just like I have every right to run around in cheetah until any ability with a reuse timer finishes it's cooldown.Yeah it's kind of lame I guess, but if that wasn't meant to be an option for us, then it travel form wouldn't be in the game.

I'm not saying that everyone should us potions, but if someone chooses to use one don't complain about it. People don't complain when rogues vanish (at least that I've seen). That costs a reagent. No one has to use abilities they don't want to, but don't be surprised if someone else chooses to.

The better tactic would be to use the stone potion 2 seconds into the battle when the druid can't stealth. Yeah I guess you can still just cheetah and run till 1 minute is up, but to me that would be no different than waiting for a cooldown.

IMO there shouldn't be any rules in dueling as it's usually an attempt to practice for pvp. How often is a rogue going to say "wait I shouldn't use this potion. It's not fair" in a pvp situation? Dueling is innately flawed from the stealth perspective anyways cause you lose the element of surprise.

Anyways I think potions are balanced with the reuse timer. If someone doesn't want to use them they don't have to. But like I said before if money were a concern for duels, then many valuable dueling abilities wouldn't be allowed.

Aitrus
04-18-2005, 12:38 PM
there are no rules.

If you use a potion against me you suck.

That's basically it.

Crimson13
04-18-2005, 12:38 PM
let's keep it civil.

Badgemagus
04-18-2005, 01:01 PM
My brother informed me of another Druid named Rubix who's worth watching. I havent seen any of his video's yet but my brother has and says he's very good. You can find his videos on the WoW forums as well. Im unable to give a reliable link because my internet is very restrictive here at work. Apparently people have stareted a Rubix vs Ferahgo thread on the forums. So, its worth checking out if you're interested in PvP.

Edit: Try doing a Google search

"Rubix Druid PvP"

I got a few listings for warcraftmovies.com.

Cenaurius
04-18-2005, 01:13 PM
in my experience, potions tend to be an "oh ****" tactic, as in "omg i'm dying, i ought to drink a potion," whether this be in pve or pvp against the opposing factions. dueling is more of a gentlemanly pursuit, so while i don't think anyone has the right to complain if a rogue uses reagents to vanish or blind someone (because it is such an essential aspect of how they fight), drinking a potion to avoid being bested makes it seem like you're too proud to admit defeat.

my tentative guidelines are that class specific abilities that may require reagents are definitely acceptable, like a rogue using powders or a druid resing a teammate in an arena group pvp battle. first aid is also acceptable because everyone has equal access to it. potions are clearly not equally accessible to everyone, and they definitely give a leg up to the guy with them. if you want an advantage on your opponent, that's perfectly understandable, but duels are designed to be a fair fight from the outset, and potions ruin that intention. duels may help you practice for real pvp, but there's no real comparison to pvp because that initial jump one person gets on another is almost completely removed, so the rules as to what is acceptable have to be different.

Gooby
04-18-2005, 01:56 PM
I understand the point you make Cenaurius, but saying potions shouldn't be used because they're "not equally accessible to everyone" sounds a bit flawed. I mean I agree to some degree but where do you draw the line? Epic gear isnt easily accessible to everyone? Does that mean people that can acquire it shouldn't use it? As I stated before what about engineers? Only engineers can use them? To me the only difference is that they have the Engineering(#) requirement.

It seems that it's just the old Diablo 2 mentality of potions. In that game you could chain potion as many times as you had them and basically infinitely heal yourself. It was retarded. But to me having the ability to do a big heal once every 3 minutes or whatever it is (I don't rely on them enough myself to watch the timer) is no different than being able to dash once every 5 minutes, lay on hands every half hour (or whatever it is), fear every 26-30 seconds (priests), vanish every 10 minutes, bandage every (whatever the timer is).

I guess the only real solution is to lay that down as a rule before hand because if I lose to someone using a potion, and I didn't use one myself, I see that as a learning experience that I need to make sure I have more potions handy. Personally I think that rule gimps the classes that can't heal themselves the same way it would if there was a "no rooting, it's not fair" or "no fearing, it's cheap" rule.

chloee
04-18-2005, 02:23 PM
Theres no reason to get all technical about it. I believe the point Aitrus was trying to make was that it doesn't make any sense to use potions in duels. Poisons and vanish are completely different, as are engineering items. You have to be a specific trade or class to use them, and the regent costs are nominal. Potions, on the other hand, everyone can use. If two people are dueling one another, theres really no difference in both players using a potion or neither player using one... why add a cost to it? For my part, whenever I see my opponent use a potion or food/drink (not bandages mind you), I just leave the dueling arena and stop dueling with them.

corlathist
04-18-2005, 02:47 PM
One quick side note, Duels are not PVP. thats really very very important to remember
in this kind of thread. Even if a Paladin can out duel a druid, there really is no excuse in PVP for being killed by a Paladin. If a paladin kills you in PVP, you aren't playing well.

Shaman on the other hand, are just as nasty in PVP as they are in duels.

Gooby
04-18-2005, 03:10 PM
If two people are dueling one another, theres really no difference in both players using a potion or neither player using one... why add a cost to it? For my part, whenever I see my opponent use a potion or food/drink (not bandages mind you), I just leave the dueling arena and stop dueling with them.

I disagree. This extra factor can add to survivability until a cooldown is over. Extra chance to bandage, or use a timer specific ability. Also a potion on a warrior is much different than a potion on a mage, as it heals a much larger % of the mage's hitpoints.

Everyone has access to bandages why the difference?

The whole both vs neither arguement could be used for innervate. When 2 restore druids duel is it commonly accempted that neither will use innervate? Or mages with evocation?

I think it's just unnecessarily splitting hairs. If someone wants to use a 5gp hp/mana potion or any of the other potion for that matter. I'd just feel that much more successful when beating them. I want my opponent to use every tool at their disposal that they're capable/willing to use to beat me. Otherwise I feel like I'm saying "ok now lets duel without using a mouse!". Seems kind of silly to me.

As for the drink/food I'd be interested in knowing how they're using those on you chloee as I always seem to get the "you are in combat" message :)

Aitrus
04-18-2005, 03:21 PM
Go ahead and use pots if you want man, but you're gonna be the laughing stock of any duelers on the server and nobody will take any of your "wins" seriously. At least not on a pvp server, can't speak about pve myself but I imagine even there you hold your potions for fighting the enemy, not blowing them in practice duels to try and show how leet your skills are (or rather are not i guess).

I rarely have more than a few pots on me, and I'm not about to blow them in a duel and then go spend gold on the AH just so I can duel more.

Most players aren't interested in wasting resources and money in duels. Flash powder, bandages, blind powder, this stuff is easily accessible and pretty damn cheap. Good mana/Hp potions cost gold. I don't know the prices cause I never buy em, but I'm guessing major manas and major hps run near on a gold a pop. Now when we duel if you need to spend 1g to beat me, go for it, im not here to spend money im here to duel.

Without getting into the whole stupid "play to win" mentality argument, it sounds to me like you just want to win the duel no matter what. If you were a priest I bet you'd mind control your opponent out of the duelling area and then say you won. Most people who duel want to practice tactics and learn what other classes do and how best to counter it. A potion counters anything and everything anytime so its not like you're developing some uber pot-chugging strategy by burning them.

Gooby
04-18-2005, 03:51 PM
"A potion counters anything and everything anytime so its not like you're developing some uber pot-chugging strategy by burning them."

I agree. I guess it's more about the circumstances in which the duel is started. If it's some jerk bragging about how he can beat anyone anytime who you don't really know.... it's not quite the same thing as you're RL best friend asking to practice for pvp.

I've encountered both the pissing contests and the friendly duels. I don't really use potions personally, mainly because I don't like to rely on them or I don't have any on me or whatever.

If it's the pissing contest I have no problem using anything at my disposal to shut up the jerk :)

Like I said I personally don't use them, but I'm not going to get upset if people I don't know who want to duel use them( i.e. the pissing contest situation). I guess I just don't like the idea of "never in a duel". I think it has its places, it just needs to be stated before hand.

Aitrus what's the accepted pvp server custom as far as bandages go? Is it just potions that are taboo or anything else?

chloee
04-18-2005, 04:04 PM
If you were a priest I bet you'd mind control your opponent out of the duelling area and then say you won.
Hey its fun to Fear + SW:Pain + Mind Control a Paladin for 26 seconds or longer, then repeat and watch them squeem lol :P So much for all those heals and timers! I did this tactic once in a duel just to prove a point to a hardheaded guy hehe.

As for the drink/food I'd be interested in knowing how they're using those on you chloee as I always seem to get the "you are in combat" message
You will frequently notice that duels between healing classes take a long time to finish. I won't go over the strategies of delaying combat, but I will say that if you don't attack your opponent for long enough in a duel, and vice versa, that you will both drop from combat so that you can drink. It happens rarely, and mostly by accident in a duel while both people are trying to keep distance and spirit up.

As for bandages, they are really cheap to make and many classes have certain abilities that give them a window to use them. I don't mind people using them because they are extremely easy to interrupt, so using them shows more skill than desperation. Examples of this would be a Rogue blinding you then bandaging, a Priest bandaging in a long fight after fearing the opponent, or a Druid after rooting someone.

Aitrus
04-18-2005, 04:31 PM
bandaging is accepted and expected in duels on my server. Particularly for rogues via blind + bandage.

I can farm 100 rune cloth in about 1 hour or so at blackrock mountain. But in the same amount of time I might only get 2-3 pots. Hence why nobody mocks you for burning bandages, but they will laugh you into the ground if you burn pots.

And we've had examples of the "pissing contest" thing. This warrior uses some engineering helmet or something that does like a 30s stun? I have yet to see the thottbot profile or get the name of it, but that's how he wins his fights. Stuns someone, then backs off, sits down, eats to regen his health, then jumps back into the fight. He runs around bragging how he can beat anybody 1v1. Nobody takes him seriously since he relies on this stupid tactic. But I'm sure some people have accepted and showed up loaded w items/pots to try and put him and his cheezy stun-helmet in their place.

Badgemagus
04-18-2005, 08:03 PM
And we've had examples of the "pissing contest" thing. This warrior uses some engineering helmet or something that does like a 30s stun? I have yet to see the thottbot profile or get the name of it, but that's how he wins his fights. Stuns someone, then backs off, sits down, eats to regen his health, then jumps back into the fight. He runs around bragging how he can beat anybody 1v1. Nobody takes him seriously since he relies on this stupid tactic. But I'm sure some people have accepted and showed up loaded w items/pots to try and put him and his cheezy stun-helmet in their place.

I beleive you're talking about the Rocket Helm.. My engineering isnt at that level yet but Im confident that's the item you're refering too.

corlathist
04-19-2005, 12:04 AM
bandaging is accepted and expected in duels on my server. Particularly for rogues via blind + bandage.

I can farm 100 rune cloth in about 1 hour or so at blackrock mountain. But in the same amount of time I might only get 2-3 pots. Hence why nobody mocks you for burning bandages, but they will laugh you into the ground if you burn pots.

And we've had examples of the "pissing contest" thing. This warrior uses some engineering helmet or something that does like a 30s stun? I have yet to see the thottbot profile or get the name of it, but that's how he wins his fights. Stuns someone, then backs off, sits down, eats to regen his health, then jumps back into the fight. He runs around bragging how he can beat anybody 1v1. Nobody takes him seriously since he relies on this stupid tactic. But I'm sure some people have accepted and showed up loaded w items/pots to try and put him and his cheezy stun-helmet in their place.

thats beyond silly. in fact its down right DUMB logic.

I might not burn very top end potions. But right now 5 Greater Mana Potions are 55-75 SILVER on my server.

Not only that, but 100 runecloth from an hour of farming would sell for around 1G25 Silver per 20. So 6.5G you just turned into bandages, and yet your whining about someone potioning
55 Silver?

Ridiculous. Potions are like gear. if u got the time/money to get them easily enough, why would anyone say "oh your a bad duelist"

do you go to someone and say "Oh sorry your bad, because your dueling and you have 4 purple items...."

Dumb dumb dumb,

I guarantee you in the "h

Glyss
04-19-2005, 12:52 AM
I agree with Aitrus and Chloee. If a fight is fair 1 v 1 and I see that whoever won the fight used a potion and the other person didn't, I pretty much disregard the fight. The winner can brag all he wants about how good he thinks he is, but the truth is we'll never know unless that other person would have used a potion. I'm assuming this topic started because I said that Ferhago uses potions in almost every fight, and thus the debate if it is actually fair to use them in pvp. If both players use them then it is fair, if not, then he really has no right to claim a victory. Technically he can, but I certainly won't acknowledge it. That's how most people view pvping. So if you want REAL bragging rights then the fight needs to be fought as fair as possible. Gear, Flash Powder, Bandages ect are never considered "unfair".

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Ndainye
04-19-2005, 02:43 AM
*edit* removed my senseless blathering *edit*

chloee
04-19-2005, 08:31 AM
(The Threads Topic)------------------------------------------------------> US! :P

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 09:11 AM
Druids are overpowered bc they don't have to pot ina duel.


wewt, reconnected.

Gooby
04-19-2005, 09:16 AM
I agree with Aitrus and Chloee. If a fight is fair 1 v 1 and I see that whoever won the fight used a potion and the other person didn't, I pretty much disregard the fight. The winner can brag all he wants about how good he thinks he is, but the truth is we'll never know unless that other person would have used a potion. I'm assuming this topic started because I said that Ferhago uses potions in almost every fight, and thus the debate if it is actually fair to use them in pvp. If both players use them then it is fair, if not, then he really has no right to claim a victory. Technically he can, but I certainly won't acknowledge it. That's how most people view pvping. So if you want REAL bragging rights then the fight needs to be fought as fair as possible. Gear, Flash Powder, Bandages ect are never considered "unfair".

While I understand the point you make, I think the same could be said for bandaging, eating or pretty much any item. To me simply disregarding a duel because they're not on the terms you expected seems kind of nit picky. My question is where do you draw the line? I remember in EQ people would just not bother fighting chanters or necros because they thought fear and charm were cheap.

I mean I could say something like "that duel didn't count cause he kept breaking my root with that belt". I imagine this will be the case with the new pvp trinkets that come out. Plenty of priests/warlocks will say "He used that lame anti fear trinket it doesn't count". Personally I'm of the frame of mind: if it's in the game you're allowed to use it. Sometimes it is silly to use potions and whatnot when dueling friends for practice. I just don't think that potions should be a "never" thing. They have their place.

As for the rocket helm. It may seem cheesy, but its basically a form of crowd control, just like sap/sheep/shackle/banish etc. Now if the issue is using the food during the duel I can see that point. I'd like to see him fight a rogue though. They have the same ability to vanish, sap then eat.

I still don't see the difference between bandages and potions from a "fair" aspect. The mutual agreement not to use potions for cost reasons makes sense, but how are bandages any different than potions from a fairnesss standpoint?

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 10:01 AM
bandages require a trick or some skill to pull off. Pots can just be guzzled at any second of the fight and tere's nothing your opponent can do about it. A pot is an instant 1k HP. A bandage is 1k HP over like 7 seconds (or whatever they are, I dunno the exact heal rate), but you have to stop what you're doing, bandage, and hope you don't get interrupted.

goa
04-19-2005, 01:53 PM
Yeah, we should all spend 5g on pots every duel.

Because winning a duel with pots proves.... that you spend more money on dueling.

wewt.

Put it this way, we start dueling. You chug a stoneshield pot increasing your ac by 1k for 1 minute. I stealth and just sit down and wait 60 seconds.

Was it fun? no. Did it waste resources? yes. Am I going to fight you with your lame-ass potion on? hell no, why should I? I can just wait until you empty your inventory of them, then we can duel 2 hours later finally.

The purpose of dueling is to show who the better pker is, not to show who can spend more money on the duel.

Ehm. Why would I shug a stoneshield potion if you can just stealth and wait it out?

A free action potion at the right moment against a rogue (or druid) is probably a better idea.

Dude, just because YOU don't use potions doesn't make it right to complain on people that does. You're free to use potion dueling me.. it's up to you. I'm not gonna whine.. but It's pretty clear you like spending your time doing it..

Potions are a part of the game. Live with it.. or complain to Blizzard to remove them. Sitting on internet forums whining about all "noobs" drinking them doesn't really help your cause.

goa
04-19-2005, 02:07 PM
Theres no reason to get all technical about it. I believe the point Aitrus was trying to make was that it doesn't make any sense to use potions in duels.

I disagree. I like to duel. And I like all the cool options and effects of various potions. If I stopped using potions I loose an aspect of the game. That's more boring for me. I didn't buy this game just so someone else should tell me how I spend my money.

why add a cost to it? For my part, whenever I see my opponent use a potion or food/drink (not bandages mind you), I just leave the dueling arena and stop dueling with them.

So potions costs money but bandaged don't? That doesn't make any sense.

Astrel
04-19-2005, 02:15 PM
It does make sense...Bandages are quite easy to make, anyone can make them regardless of their profession, and the materials are easily farmable and drop plenty that you never have to spend money making them. Potions are different. They usually require much more uncommon materials (especially the higher end potions) if you aren't a Alchemist then you obviously have to pay for them which can run a few gold for a stack of 5 depending on the type of potions, maybe even more. If I am dueling someone, which has not affect at all afterwards, why waste the potion you can save for that "OH SHNAP" situation in real PvP combat against horde. To me it's also seems like wasted gold downing a potion during a duel. The only time I will imagine Potion use during dueling is really acceptable is during maybe a guild competition. I have been a few on my server where two guilds duel with a point system for the winners to determind which guuild wins overall. We usually allow Pots, and this takes place in the Gurubashi Arena.

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 02:23 PM
I'm not going to complain to Blizzard because I don't really care if people want to burn pots in duels. If I was going to complain to blizzard it would be about frost-shock or the need for penalties against people who zerg.

Someone asked about pots in duels. You can say whatever you want but if you are dueling me and you drain a major HP pot just as your about to die, myself and anyone watching are going to laugh at you, and no matter what happens after that everyone will agree you lost. Why? Because you had to burn a pot. You can console yourself all you want with "but pots are in the game therefore i use them in duels!!!" but at the end of the day most players don't agree with you.

Hell even in real pvp, if someone has to pot versus me it automatically makes them weaker than me imo. If they were to make some post saying "aitrus i owned you today" I'd just say "yeah, pot more noob" and that'd pretty much delegitimize their claim to being a better pker or whatever. More often though, if someone pots in real pvp I'll just down one myself as well, negating their advantage. This is why they are pointless in duels. You gain 1k life, I gain 1k life. You get an extra 30s to bring timers back, so do I, whoop dee doo. We both burn resources for no reason at all.

Unless we're gonna talk about druids being overpowered, mods might wanna lock this as its waaaaay off topic and I don't think there is much more to be said on the topic of pots in duels. Some people think its a good plan, others think its a sign that you can't win without spending gold, I seriously doubt we will convince anyone to change their position on that subject.

Cenaurius
04-19-2005, 03:05 PM
i'm thinking you're right about this thread needing to be locked, anything useful that could be said has already been said, nothing but people's opinions remain.

chloee
04-19-2005, 03:15 PM
While we are not on topic, I'd like to mention that cupcakes are mmm mmm good!

Crimson13
04-19-2005, 03:19 PM
Let's try to steer it back on topic.

How are we overpowered and will someone teach me :P

Beyond being a healer or an off-tank, both of which i feel quite competent at, I don't feel overpowered at all. Roots always breaks, and I can never do enough damage to whomever I'm up against before they bring me down. Only classes I can ever stand a chance against are paladins and other druids, and that seems to be more luck than anything. My roots always break against hunters and trying to keep them constantly rooted never seems to work, and will only be worse post-patch (today).

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 03:38 PM
use your rank 3 root instead of your rank 6 and you will notice a phenomenal improvement in root-hold duration, and a nicely reduced mana-cost per root.

I find it bizarre that you find the classes you are best against are other druids and pally's... I cannot finish either of those battles usually. It just ends as a draw, although if your horde the extra stun could be the diff vs pally's.

Quick breakdown of our ownage:

mage - good pvp mage goes for fast high-cost dps kills. Go bear form, use enrage and frenzied regen. Watch his mana bar the whole time. Shift, natures swift, heal, shift back to bear. Next time you need to use bash then regrowth then shift. now he's out of mana and out of tricks. He can't morph you so he's screwed.


priest: Sw:p and pw:s cost a LOT of mana. Use your bear for extra hp and frenzied regen/enrage combo. Fight him basically the same way as the mage, except the fight will go a lot longer before he runs out of mana. The only exception is shadow priests. If we can beat them, I haven't figured out how (short of them being dumb and trying to burst-dps us from start to finish. If they know enough to use their wand and sw:p, we get owned eventually).

warrior: Root > warrior. Fight in bear, use nature's grasp when you shift out, wait for mortal strike to wear off before healing. Our AC > Warr ac by far when we go bear. Simply outlast him via AC + healing.

hunter: sleep pet, root hunter. With new patch sleep pet, bear form, use feral charge to keep on him when he wing clips you. Shift and apply root+moonfire periodically. Keep healed, adn abolish his poisons when you're in caster.

rogue: all bear form. Use nature's grasp, bash, and nature's swiftness to get 3 easy heals off. Know when he uses his vanish so that you can be sure your root will hold. Do not get stunned while in caster at all costs.

warlock: can be a tougher fight, and very hard if he uses felhound. Bear form ftw here tho. Just keep feral charging back into him. If he uses imp kill it first as it does mad dmg and has like 1k HP total. Healing is easy vs a lock as he doesnt get a silence ability (unlike mage/priest).

Shaman/Paladin/Druid: we don't own these at all... dru vs dru for obvious reasons, shammy/pal because they get too much blizzlove.

But ultimately whats making us overpowered instead of just good is frenzied regen. It makes rogues a joke - although perhaps with their new dps increase they'll have a chance again. We'll see. They generate soooooooooo much rage for us tho, getting off a 100 pt regen without even using enrage is pretty easy.

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 03:56 PM
Aitrus has a good grasp of Druid PvP. Dont forget farie fire. It works wonders especially against rogues.

Astrel
04-19-2005, 03:58 PM
I don't want to say overpowered but I find fighting most people lately has been pretty easy. Aside from lengthy fights with Pallys and Priests my fights are pretty quick. Rogues I have no problems with, Nature's Swiftness + Max Healing Touch ftw after the first set of ambush/Stuns, then go into Bear (assuming I was caught off guard of course). Mages...I hate to say it, but I down then in 2s half the time. Since level 30 I have taken on 2 mages at once only to tear them both apart while only shifting from Catform maybe twice to heal. Warlocks I ignore the pets (Same for Hunter, or put em to sleep) and just tear into them. They don't have a shield, and only fear, so I tear them apart failry quickly. Warriors just get rooted and I out tank them lol. Priests, I've manage to destroy their shield in seconds and get em to half health before needing to reheal (or I was defeated).

Shamans....Ok I hate them with a passion.

Add in that sometimes I will throw on Barkskin, then go into Bear Form and hit Frenzied Regen, some people just give up at that point.

Glyss
04-19-2005, 04:04 PM
Pots take no skill to chug, Bandages take skill to pull off a successful bandage in mid pvp. I've fought a rogue 2 levels lower than me once who pulled off 2 bandages in a duel on me before. I only blame myself for being stupid enough to let him sneak out of range long enough to get off his bandages. With moonfire as an Instant nuke/dot, we have no excuse for not being able to interrupt bandages unless we're gouged. I still won the fight but it was a damn close one where I ended oom.

Just like every MMORPG trinkets with clickable immune to fear, roots, ect are considered gear and are not unfair to use in pvp. Gear difference is always to be expected among players and often duels are often tests of not only skill, but of gear. Not so much right now, but eventually later on in the game, while you are running around looking to duel someone you will see guild tags like: Afterlife, Ascent, Conquest, Discordia or whatever uber guild is on your server, and you're gonna know that no matter how many times you duel them it is not likely you will beat them simply because of their gear. This is what drives me, as well as several other players in the game, to work harder for better gear. If I see someone click a root immunity or fear immunity item in mid pvp (not a potion) I think to myself, "neat, wheret can I get one of those." If I see a rogue get multiple bandages on me after he had already use the gouge/bandage tactic once on me, I only blame myself. If I let someone stay out of range long enough and they eat or drink, I only blame myself. When I see someone chug a potion right as they're about to lose, I DON'T think to myself, "Man, I must suck because I didn't go out of my way to buy potions before this duel." Bandages, Food/Water can be countered in duels as part of the duel. Potions can only be countered in duels only with other potions and require 0 skill to operate. Yes, potions are in the game, but there are times when and when NOT to use certain things as a player code develops as one does in all MMORPGS. Remember player codes in EQ like, "If a person is at that camp, then it is THEIR camp" or from EQ pvp servers "If a person is engaged in a mob, then you should wait till they finish before engaging in pvp with them." Just because you CAN gank them with a mob on them or even KS their camp from them, doesn't mean you should. Not using pots in duels is just an example of a player code starting to be formed in WoW. It is certainly OK to use pots against mobs, generally OK to use them in open pvp, but it is definately frowned upon by other players when they are used in duels. There will always be people who don't conform to the player code and they will do whatever they want and people will think they are jackasses, there is nothing you can do about that.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Crimson13
04-19-2005, 04:30 PM
Ahem.... Thanks Aitrus, I'll take all that into consideration :) I think my gear may be a big factor in all this too, as i in no way have more AC than a warrior in bear form, and i have far less MP than most casters :)

Time to start focusing on gear i guess.

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 04:33 PM
yikes.

I have 10.4k AC in bear (you can see my gear in the allakhazam link in my sig).

A warrior in full valour without a shield doesn't even hit 5k. Shield moves him up around 6.5k. Or that's what they say anyways. I have lvl 60 warr's in my guild who barely have 4k AC. Which is sad cause my dru almost has 3k in caster.

Starky
04-19-2005, 04:39 PM
Hunter's Scare beast > bearform btw.

Crimson13
04-19-2005, 04:43 PM
yikes.

I have 10.4k AC in bear (you can see my gear in the allakhazam link in my sig).

A warrior in full valour without a shield doesn't even hit 5k. Shield moves him up around 6.5k. Or that's what they say anyways. I have lvl 60 warr's in my guild who barely have 4k AC. Which is sad cause my dru almost has 3k in caster.

O.O are you feral specced?!?!

And i can't get to allakhazam right now :(

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 04:45 PM
you can see when he's gonna cast it, just shift out and say lollerskates. Same thing when you see a mage going for polymorph. Although we have less to worry about from mages now that we can shift right out...

But usually w a hunter you'll be meleeing him in bear, and they don't cast anything else that looks like a spell, so once you see him gearin up for that 1.5s cast scare beast just quickly shift out to druid form. While you're out cast a heal and a moonfire so as not to waste mana, then get back into bear before swiftshift runs out.

scare beast has a 30s cooldown, and im pretty sure if he tries it and it fizzles he still has the cooldown.

Even at that, very few hunters are smart enough to have this loaded on their spellbars, or realize that they can use it against us. Much like few druids load a tier 1 moonfire for totem-nuking anywhere accessible ^^

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 04:47 PM
O.O are you feral specced?!?!

And i can't get to allakhazam right now :(

31 restore, 11 feral, 9 balance.

Ward staff + smoking heart + ring of prot + cloak of warding + mark of tyranny = nice ac druid who still has lots of int/sta.

The only way to go higher is to use slaghide gaunts, the girdle (i think its the crystalized girdle?), and maybe volcanic armor. But the loss of stats is totally not worth it on those items.

Ndainye
04-19-2005, 05:01 PM
Just like every MMORPG trinkets with clickable immune to fear, roots, ect are considered gear and are not unfair to use in pvp. Gear difference is always to be expected among players and often duels are often tests of not only skill, but of gear.

Fear Trinkets that's a blacksmith only thing. Why is it a fair fight if a blacksmith uses their profession but an unfair fight if an alchemists does the same? If an enchanter uses enchants to get crusaders on a weapon so that they are healed why is an alchemist using a healing potion wrong?

You wanna make rules for duels do so. Make sure everyone you fight is buck naked and going hand to hand that will make it fair.

TheShambler
04-19-2005, 05:26 PM
Make sure everyone you fight is buck naked and going hand to hand that will make it fair.

I don't think it would be called a 'duel' then, another word might be more accurate.

Starky
04-19-2005, 05:45 PM
With my ping being as it is, (200+ usually) spotting scare beast and switching is risky at best, that and hunters to a fair bit of damage in melee. It is just easier to stick in his deadzone and constantly have abolish poison on yourself - imp wrath helps a lot here if you have the talent points handy (I wish). Either way you're gonna blow a lot of your mana killing him.

goa
04-19-2005, 08:58 PM
It does make sense...Bandages are quite easy to make, anyone can make them regardless of their profession, and the materials are easily farmable and drop plenty that you never have to spend money making them.

But you loose money not selling them.

No, still don't make sense.

goa
04-19-2005, 08:59 PM
I'm not going to complain to Blizzard because I don't really care if people want to burn pots in duels.

Sure you don't.

Starky
04-19-2005, 09:25 PM
Edit: NM

Yrys
04-19-2005, 10:46 PM
This might be a controversial subject, but we can do it without personal attacks to each other. Argue the point, not the person. :)

Glyss
04-20-2005, 02:55 AM
Fear Trinkets that's a blacksmith only thing. Why is it a fair fight if a blacksmith uses their profession but an unfair fight if an alchemists does the same? If an enchanter uses enchants to get crusaders on a weapon so that they are healed why is an alchemist using a healing potion wrong?


You are clearly misunderstanding me. If BOTH players use potions in the fight then it was obviously a fair fight. If only one player used potions in the fight and that player won, then it was obviously not fair. The winner is gonna gloat about how GOOD he is however the only reason he probably won is because the other person didn't have a potion on him. "OMGZORS! You suck so bad because you didn't have a potion on you and I did! AHAHAHAH LOLLERSKATES!"

Trinkets and Enchants are a completely different story as I explained before they are non-expendable choices that are made while you are equipping your character and tie into your gear. One person may choose to have a Fear Trinket while the other chooses to have a Smoking Heart of the Mountain... how you equip your char is completely up to you. Potions ARE NOT equipment nor are they tied into ANY ability for any class. If you are dueling someone it is best for you to establish the duel rules before the fight to make sure potions are OK to use. It is only the polite thing to do to make sure your opponent feels the same way as you about dueling. But honestly, if you both have 1k hp heal pots whats the point of using them? They both cancel eachother out anyway. Same with mana pots. If you're both gonna use them, you might as well both agree NOT to use them and the fight would end the same without both of you wasting potions.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Ndainye
04-20-2005, 03:44 AM
When you choose to be a blacksmith you are choosing to use that skill to enhance your character, when you choose to be an enchanter you are choosing that skill to enhance your character, when you choose to be an alchemist you are choosing that skill to enhance your character.

I can understand duel rules if you set em follow em. I don't understand why you are stating that some professions are valid to for enhancing your character and others are not. Sure potions are expendable and anyone CAN get them but if you are not an alchemist you most likely won't have them to a large degree. They can be extremely expensive if you are buying them in the AH.

Anyone can choose to use enchants and blacksmithed items but there are items (smoking heart, fear trinket and tons of engineered items) that are only useable by that profession/creator. At the moment there is no reason to choose alchemy over other professions except for the potions (alchemist stone recipe has yet to be found in live).

So are buff potions okay or is that cheating too?

I'm not a pvp person, I could care less about dueling in front of Org for hours I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind the "my profession is an enhancement to my character while your profession is a low level way to unbalance a fight and therefore not valid."

Aidon
04-20-2005, 04:34 AM
with regard to AC...AC has a soft cap of around 6.5k, the returns over that start dropping significantly against lvl 60 mobs, which is why warrior and pally sets don't have that much. At one point in time, with AC gear on, devo aura, and druid buff, my Paladin had around 8k AC...it wasn't necessary (especially as a pally heh).

While more AC is always good, tanks also have to maintain their HPs, resists, and ability to generate aggro (i.e. damage stats).

Falloraan
04-20-2005, 10:59 AM
Odd question here, but if I change one of my professions to Enchanting to get the Smoking Heart trinket, can I later change it back to my old profession, but still use the Enchanting trinket?

Ndainye
04-20-2005, 11:24 AM
Yeah you can it's not enchanter only it's just BOP so only the person that makes the trinket can use it.

Gooby
04-20-2005, 11:26 AM
You are clearly misunderstanding me. If BOTH players use potions in the fight then it was obviously a fair fight. If only one player used potions in the fight and that player won, then it was obviously not fair.

That's like saying in group pvp "if one group has a healer and the other does not then it wasn't a fair fight so they didn't really win". I totally disagree. I think the best solution would be to watch to see if they use a potion and use one yourself if they do.

Trinkets and Enchants are a completely different story as I explained before they are non-expendable choices that are made while you are equipping your character and tie into your gear.

Engineering trinkets are expendable. They have a chance of blowing up when you use them. Mortars and bombs are 100% expendable. Bow/gun ammo is expendable. If the issue is money since ammo tends to cost less, then I think it's just poor sporsmanship to say someone didn't really win a duel because they're willing to spend money and their opponent is not. If they use them when it is clearly agreed not to use them, then yeah that's lame.

How about we refer to potions as engineering items with "engineering (0)" requirement that have a 100% chance of exploding? Will they be ok then?

But honestly, if you both have 1k hp heal pots whats the point of using them? They both cancel eachother out anyway. Same with mana pots. If you're both gonna use them, you might as well both agree NOT to use them and the fight would end the same without both of you wasting potions.


I 100% disagree. Example Rogue vs. Defensive spec'd warrior. They are both at 10% life. They both use potions. Rogue is at 50% life warrior is at at 25% life. Rogue is pumping out more dps and can overcome that 1000 hp gained much faster than defensive warrior can. The numbers aren't very precise, but the basic jist of it is...

High DPS low defense classes get much more benefit out of potions than low DPS high defense classes do. The dps class can overcome that 1000 hps much faster than the low dps class can. So just because they get healed for the same amount does not mean the fight just gets paused with the same outcome.

Theres also the decision of what type of potion to use. Mana vs. healing. I'm not sure about how rage potions work so correct me if I'm wrong but they may also be a factor here. Even without them though. Yes a warrior will use a healing potion, but will a druid use a healing potion or a mana potion? Choosing the wrong one can be deadly. Also timing them so you can potentially use another later in the battle is an issue.

Basically my initial problem with the comments made here was that people were saying that potions should never be used. I think that's just plain dumb. If you're dueling friends for skill then yeah you probably don't want to use a potion. But if you're dueling for prestige and potions are allowed then saying "I would have won if he didnt use the potion" is a cop out. Yeah I would have won too if you weren't an engineer but guess what? You are. I lost.

As for pvp I imagine that with honor system potions will be used more frequently. I don't care if I use a potion to kill an alliance guy. First of all I don't have to listen to them complain about it. Second of all I'm the one who got the points for the kill. You may think im a jerk for it. That's your right. But when it comes down to pvp I've found that being a "nice guy" just gets me killed. (like the one day I decided to be nice and not corpse camp and they came back and ganked me when I was exping)

Gooby
04-20-2005, 11:31 AM
Also almost forgot. Thanks Aitrus for the very informative pvp info. I think that warrants a sticky as a separate thread without the talk about potions :)

Falloraan
04-20-2005, 12:39 PM
mage - good pvp mage goes for fast high-cost dps kills. Go bear form, use enrage and frenzied regen. Watch his mana bar the whole time. Shift, natures swift, heal, shift back to bear. Next time you need to use bash then regrowth then shift. now he's out of mana and out of tricks. He can't morph you so he's screwed.
I have only dueled a mage once, twice in a row, and she kicked my ass both times. Was critting me for 1400 points, I found myself doing nothing but healing. Didn't use bear form at all, but will have to try that immediate bear, enrage, frenzied regen. I would think though, that after shifting once to heal, shifting to cat would be better than going back to bear. You won't have enrage up again, and no regen for a couple mins, so the DPS and faster attacks for more interrupts seems like the better form to use.

Astrel
04-20-2005, 12:46 PM
Bear is still a good form against mage. Don't forget you have a 4 second stun if you specc'd for it. That is plenty of time to heal yourself in a pinch, or put up both HoT's and go back into bear. Usually after I put on HoT's I go into Catform against mages. It's way too easy then. It's only a matter of a few Energy attacks and they are dead. Even worse if it crits.

I also used to have an unorthodox way of fighting as well. Green Whelp Armor. For something with only 5% chance of proc when you are attack, it has proc'd way more than 5% of the time. Against a Meleer that proc is nice, however the less armor isn't so it depends.

Glyss
04-20-2005, 01:10 PM
You guys are STILL misunderstanding me. Especially Ndainye. I don't know how to make myself anymore clear without drawing pictures for you. I never said you COULDN'T use potions in a duel. I said that it is polite if you ask your opponent before the duel if they plan on using potions. Do you not agree that that is at least fair? I am NOT talking about open pvp by any means, so don't relate it to that. I am talking about duels only.

As for Ndainye trying to relate Alchemy to every other profression, im lost. What does she want to happen, "Guess what, I'm an Alchemist so therefore it is OK for me to use potions in a duel, but since you're a Blacksmith and Engineer you can't because you have other professions that you should use!" News flash, ANYONE can use potions no matter if they are alchemists or not. So try and explain to me how having a healing pot is realevent to being an alchemist. Oooo you can make them... so what, I can buy them. You went out of your way to farm the ingredients and put it together. I went out of my way to farm gold to afford it. Same time invested, we just aquired them in different ways. Here's a great idea, why don't we run around getting buffs from friends, healthstones from warlock buddies, and buying all kinds of expendable crap from the AH before we start dueling as well! Then we can really show those noobs the superior way to duel!

That's like saying in group pvp "if one group has a healer and the other does not then it wasn't a fair fight so they didn't really win". I totally disagree. I think the best solution would be to watch to see if they use a potion and use one yourself if they do.

I don't agree with this. This may have been a problem in EQ but it has NOT proven to be a problem in WoW. If the numbers are even, generally so is the pvp.

I 100% disagree. Example Rogue vs. Defensive spec'd warrior. They are both at 10% life. They both use potions. Rogue is at 50% life warrior is at at 25% life. Rogue is pumping out more dps and can overcome that 1000 hp gained much faster than defensive warrior can. The numbers aren't very precise, but the basic jist of it is...

Well I 100% diagree with that. Yes, a rogue will be dishing out more dps, but a warrior will be blocking, parrying, dodging, just as much of it. If you think about the statistics of a fight through the usage of a 1k hitpoint heal in a fight vs a rogue and a warrior, considering they both use the potions, a rogue will boost his hp from 3.5k hp to 4.5k and a warriof from 5.5k to 6.5k. It's still the same amount of hp. You're trying to relate it to percentages and thats where you are wrong because HP pots don't heal by percentages, but instead by an exact number of hp. The healing pot won't do anymore for the rogue than it will for the warrior. Mana vs Healing pots for hybrid classes is a diff story. It does make a difference which pot you use and when. But like I said before, you might want to talk to whoever you are dueling before hand and make sure it's cool with them to use pots. 80% of the time people don't want to waste pots on duels and they don't have the, hardcore-I do whatever it takes to win a duel-Buff me up priest and mage buddies, attitude.

If you pop a potion in mid duel and you win because it turns out he didn't have one, you should pat yourself on the back for being better prepared than him, but not for being a better dueler.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Gooby
04-20-2005, 01:24 PM
I don't agree with this. This may have been a problem in EQ but it has NOT proven to be a problem in WoW. If the numbers are even, generally so is the pvp.

That was exactly my point. It is fair. I someone thinks that there actually is a disadvantage then they should make sure they have a healer. Just like if someone thinks they are being disadvantaged by using a potion, then use one yourself.

Well I 100% diagree with that. Yes, a rogue will be dishing out more dps, but a warrior will be blocking, parrying, dodging, just as much of it. If you think about the statistics of a fight through the usage of a 1k hitpoint heal in a fight vs a rogue and a warrior, considering they both use the potions, a rogue will boost his hp from 3.5k hp to 4.5k and a warriof from 5.5k to 6.5k. It's still the same amount of hp. You're trying to relate it to percentages and thats where you are wrong because HP pots don't heal by percentages, but instead by an exact number of hp. The healing pot won't do anymore for the rogue than it will for the warrior.

I yes potions don't heal by percentages but my point was that they effectively heal more on someone who is dishing out more dps. If both people use a potion at the same time the person who is dishing out more effective dps (after ac/defense) wil be able to overcome that 1000 point heal faster and will effectively have the advantage. They take less time to negate the heal therefore their heal was more advantageous despite being healed for the same amount.

But like I said before, you might want to talk to whoever you are dueling before hand and make sure it's cool with them to use pots. 80% of the time people don't want to waste pots on duels and they don't have the, hardcore-I do whatever it takes to win a duel-Buff me up priest and mage buddies, attitude.

If you pop a potion in mid duel and you win because it turns out he didn't have one, you should pat yourself on the back for being better prepared than him, but not for being a better dueler.


I totally agree.

Glyss
04-20-2005, 04:30 PM
double post

Glyss
04-20-2005, 04:39 PM
I yes potions don't heal by percentages but my point was that they effectively heal more on someone who is dishing out more dps. If both people use a potion at the same time the person who is dishing out more effective dps (after ac/defense) wil be able to overcome that 1000 point heal faster and will effectively have the advantage. They take less time to negate the heal therefore their heal was more advantageous despite being healed for the same amount.


You are correct in this statement. Ther person with the higher dps will burn through the 1k faster. But you're assuming the rogue will naturally have higher dps than the warrior after the potion is used and this isn't correct.

Let me explain using a scenario: A dueling rogue and warrior both use 1k heal potions at 20% of their hp. For a 5k warrior 20% of their hp would be 1000hp. For a 2.8k rogue 20% hp is 500 hp. Now the warrior has 2000 hp (after using the potion) and the rogue has 1500 hp. The rogue will not necessarily tear through the warriors hp faster than the warrior will tear through the rogues. Yes, Rogues have higher dps than Warriors, but Warriors have higher defense, armor, Block, Parry, Dodge ect. At the same time Rogues have higher dps, they also have LESS defense and armor than Warriors thus allowing the Warrior a better chance of landing hits for greater damage on the rogue than the rogue will be landing on the warrior. Don't forget all that extra hp the warrior has on the rogue to begin with, the rogue will likely be the first to reach 20% and pop a potion. In the end it all comes down to equipment and skill in the fight. Just cause he's a dps class doesn't mean he'll be able to drop the Warriors hp faster than the Warrior will drop his. You have to remember that even though he IS a dps class, in a fight with a warrior, his defensive gear is also being taken in to consideration. Instead of thinking of the potion as as a "heal", instead think of both the warrior and the rogue starting out with 1k extra hp from the beginning of the fight, because if both use a potion you're basically adding 1k hp to both duelers before the fight, not changing anything or giving either side an advantage.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Ndainye
04-21-2005, 12:36 AM
*edit* nm you are completly misunderstanding what I am stating and it's pointless to continue to beat my head against a brick *edit*

Ndainye
04-21-2005, 12:48 AM
*edit* double posted *edit*

chloee
04-21-2005, 07:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gooby
I yes potions don't heal by percentages but my point was that they effectively heal more on someone who is dishing out more dps. If both people use a potion at the same time the person who is dishing out more effective dps (after ac/defense) wil be able to overcome that 1000 point heal faster and will effectively have the advantage. They take less time to negate the heal therefore their heal was more advantageous despite being healed for the same amount.

You are correct in this statement. Ther person with the higher dps will burn through the 1k faster. But you're assuming the rogue will naturally have higher dps than the warrior after the potion is used and this isn't correct.

This line of reasoning is illogical. You're arguing that someone who has the advantage would incur an expense to try to gain what they already have.

Gooby
04-21-2005, 08:33 AM
Glyss I was assuming the rogue had more effective dps for the sake of arguement. I did not mean to imply that rogues always have the advantage over warriors. My point was that whoever has a higher damage dealt vs. damage received will incur more of a benefit if both people use a potion. Therefore the 1k heal, though the same amounts of hps, isn't always just a pause button. A mage and warrior fight wouldn't necessarily be the same fight if they both had 1000 more hps, all other factors being the same. It might in some cases but not always.

This line of reasoning is illogical. You're arguing that someone who has the advantage would incur an expense to try to gain what they already have.

There's other factors. Mainly cooldown abilities. A rogue with higher overall dps (after defenses are considered) may have a dps advantage over a paladin. But he still has to burn through the pally's "3 lives". Even though you are taking their % health down faster than they are to you, you still have to burn through "oh crap" abilities with long cooldowns such as pally shields, druid innervate.

Basically what I'm saying is that both people taking a 1k potion isnt necessarly going to lead to the same outcome just because they both got the same amount of hitpoints healed. There's other factors to take into account.

Glyss
04-21-2005, 03:29 PM
This line of reasoning is illogical. You're arguing that someone who has the advantage would incur an expense to try to gain what they already have.

?

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

goa
04-21-2005, 03:41 PM
You guys are STILL misunderstanding me. Especially Ndainye. I don't know how to make myself anymore clear without drawing pictures for you.

Keep it down tiger. Yelling just makes you seem less intelligent than you really are.

I never said you COULDN'T use potions in a duel. I said that it is polite if you ask your opponent before the duel if they plan on using potions. Do you not agree that that is at least fair?

Why? What do you have to ask for in advance and what do you not have to ask for? Why are there rules to what you have to ask for and who set 'em?

If potions wouldn't be fair in dueling, they wouldn't be possible to quaff. End of story.

Glyss
04-21-2005, 04:12 PM
Keep it down tiger. Yelling just makes you seem less intelligent than you really are.



Why? What do you have to ask for in advance and what do you not have to ask for? Why are there rules to what you have to ask for and who set 'em?

If potions wouldn't be fair in dueling, they wouldn't be possible to quaff. End of story.

You obviously havn't been keeping up with this thread nor have you read any of my previous posts since I've already covered all of your questions. BTW, don't use nicknames like "Tiger", they make you seem more feminine than you really are, Miss Mary Jane Watson.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 04:14 PM
two threads going crazy in the same day.

I blame the druidofthewood people... xenophobia ftw!

when will this one get shukked to the ruins?

Crimson13
04-21-2005, 05:37 PM
Again, keep this civil or the thread will be locked. A lot of good discussion has come out of this thread thus far, but the personal attacks have to stop.

Whether or not potions can be used in a duel should be decided between you and whom you're dueling before you begin. If you're duelling the opposite faction, IMO anything goes.

Aidon
04-21-2005, 06:29 PM
Lets keep it on an even keel folks...you don't want me to fire up my Moderator Mode :P

It isn't pretty.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 07:01 PM
Everyone has their own opinions upon drinking health potions in a duel. From what I have SEEN, it is frowned upon. There is NO rule saying we can NOT use them but your are less likely to be validated if you did use one. That's the facts plain and simple. It probably came to this because people got upset that they lost duel's to someone who did use a heal potion. I dont beleive this is fair, but what can one do?

goa
04-22-2005, 06:39 AM
You obviously havn't been keeping up with this thread nor have you read any of my previous posts since I've already covered all of your questions. BTW, don't use nicknames like "Tiger", they make you seem more feminine than you really are, Miss Mary Jane Watson.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Thank you. I believe I am close to my feminine side. :)

No, I haven't read your previous posts on the subject. I don't have the time nor the endurance to go through a posters all previous posts before making a comment. So sorry.

And I appologize if I contributed to the harsch tone in this thread.. but I wasn't the one starting to call people names here. :)

Glyss
04-22-2005, 03:49 PM
Keep it down tiger.

Tiger may not be a "name" to you but it certainly drew a negative reaction from me. It is no more of a "name" than what I countered with...

BTW, don't use nicknames like "Tiger", they make you seem more feminine than you really are, Miss Mary Jane Watson.

So don't blame this all on me and try to look all innocent with smiley faces in your posts.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Crimson13
04-22-2005, 03:52 PM
well, that's that done. Keep it civil in the future.