View Full Forums : sooo lets talk about barkskin & pvp
04-01-2005, 04:16 PM
I am really having trouble making use of this ability.
It feels like the negatives balance out the positives so that I rarely know when I should throw it up.
I get uninterrupted casting from physical damage, but it adds 1s to my casting time. And I can still get stun/bash interrupted. This means instead of trying for a quick 1.5s regrowth and risking interrupts from dmg (w 60% chance to avoid it from nature's focus, not very probable anyways) I can go for a 2.5s regrowth and be sure that physical damage wont bother my casting.
The problem is that extra second makes me more likely to get stunned/silenced/bashed whatever. The longer the cast time on your spell, the more likely it will be stopped.
In PvE this is moot, as mobs dont bash you. But for PvP it seems like a lost cause. Most classes attack slow, so the interrupt rate is negligible to begin with. People say use it vs rogues, but rogues have a huge arsenal of stuns/interrupts beyond physical dmg.
So as far as it helping me get spells off when under fire, I really don't see when I'm supposed to use this. I really feel a 1.5s regrowth is more likely to land than a 2.5s regrowth w barkskin.
What seems more useful perhaps is the 20% dmg reduction vs the 20% attack speed reduction. That is, I could just fire it on when in battle every time its available on the assumption that 20% dmg reduction outweighs the 20% attack speed reduction. I could fire it on and go bear/cat, or I could stay in caster for a few moonfires etc.
The spell seems to be 2 spells in one, with both of its positive effects balanced out with negative stuff. On the casting front the positive really does balance witht he negative, but maybe on the damage reduction/output front the spell actually is better for the caster than for the enemy.
Thoughts on barkskin in pvp?
04-01-2005, 04:35 PM
I use it sometimes in a defensive situation in mass or team pvp. Since i'm usually the healer, players tend to want to go for me first. This is obviously their biggest mistake because druids can be the hardest class in the game to catch, and we can kite them around for as long as we like and even run them into an ambush. I'll use Barkskin as an extra sheild on myself while I'm rejuving/moonfire/fairy firing/nature's grasping in pvp. These spells are all instant cast however there is still a one second cool downtimer before you can cast multiple of them. In this time they usually get a few hits in and Barkskin will help mitigate some of that damage. Especially against those rogues who save a stun or two for when you untransform to bust out some high damage combos while they think you're unprotected.
-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh
04-01-2005, 04:38 PM
honestly, i can't find any use for it in PvP or PvE as of yet, to me, 20% damage reduction and no physical interrupts just doesn't balance against the added casting time, as all the spells i can see myself wanting to use in a situation that would call for barkskin aren't instant by any means and the extra 1 second usually winds me up dead :)
Now one place i could see barkskin actually ADDING to my survival would be using a combination of Nature's Swiftness, Barkskin, and Healing Touch.... i dunno, maybe i'll build it into a macro :P
04-01-2005, 04:39 PM
You can't macro multiple spells in the same macro.
-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh
04-01-2005, 04:42 PM
ah, see, never tried multiple spells before, thanks for pointing that out glyss
04-01-2005, 05:23 PM
20% damage reduction is like switching into bearform, very nice for when you gain aggro from big mobs. It stacks with bearform too, which I'm guessing is a bug.
Just a side note, mobs do bash (shield bash, kick, knockback, what have you), so that is a valid downside in PvE as well.
04-01-2005, 07:11 PM
From what ive read (and noticed) barkskin is currently bugged and actually increased attack speed by 20%. They might have changed this in the hotfix. Anyone got confirmation on this?
Btw where does the -0.5 secs for regrowth come from? Is it a wildheart set bonus or something?
04-02-2005, 05:32 PM
I use it quite frequently when healing, usually with Swiftness or just lots of early heals, tho. I find that if I draw early aggro from a boss mob, I can hit barkskin and regrowth and usually by the time the mob's pulled off me, my regrowth lands on me, then I can start an early Nat. Touch on the main tank and interrupt it by moving if he doesn't need it when the cast time's almost up. You just can't wait to cast with bark up, but early castings can be interrupted if they aren't needed, and swiftness is there if you have to heal faster.
Second use is for when tons of low level mobs are on you...think lots of skellies from those summoners that get bugged sometimes and keep making them, or if someone talks to the students in scholo (lol), or those boss mobs that create adds--not always can you stop healing the main tank to deal with the adds. This lets you ignore them while the mage kills em so as to keep healing the MT...and if you have a backup healer, they can heal you. Sometimes, you get lots of little guys that can't really hurt you, but they can cause enough interrupts to be annoying. Also, if you're doing AoE duoing with a mage, this part can be helpful too. Just start that heal before you think the mage will need it...
Maybe a macro that says that you are going into barkskin and need a heal from the backup healer on yourself, then casts barkskin, then you can hit HT on the main tank would work and balance out the timing...
So, yes, the extra second sucks, but you should just cast before the heal is needed (or swiftness it), and bark can save your group in a pinch by keeping the healer alive.
Oh, and the 1.5s regrowth (from another post) is, I expect, just a confusion with flash heal. Flash is 1.5, regrowth is 2secs.
I have used barkskin a few times in instances. Once when I was rezzed back into combat by another druid during a bad pull; I popped barkskin and fired up Tranquility. No interrupts on tranquility, which was a great way to prevent anyone else from dying due to that pull.
I've used it a few other times, and liked it :-)
04-02-2005, 06:15 PM
This thread is about Barkskin in relation to pvp. Just thought i'd point that out.
-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh
04-02-2005, 09:06 PM
ah, true glyss. Got caught up in responding to one comment, stopped short of my full comment. Out side of PvE, in PvP it's near useless, but then so is staying in caster form, in my opinion. People die so much faster in pvp that I can't live but 4 seconds in caster form unless no one knows I'm there. Now if I'm unnoticed and not a target of attack, then I'm going to be doing things that cause damage or are instant casts and that extra second is priceless.
I can see what people are saying about bear form plus barkskin, though I've only tried that dueling rogues, where it is very nice. In large group PvP, however, I don't think it'd be much help, and it would lower your damage output quite a bit. I mean, bear form doesn't do all that much damage to begin with--and 80% of that damage isn't much good to anyone.
best use in pvp--to run away. Barkskin + travel form or cat/dash FTW!
04-03-2005, 08:03 AM
I really haven't found a good use for it in 1v1 pvp. Any class will tear you apart if you have to stay in caster for that long. Most classes have a spell interupt and you basicly just giving them more time to use it. Against a warrior he will just stick MS on you and start laughing. It might be useful in a group pvp situation. If you busy being the healer and then a rogue goes for your throat you can just stick it on and go into bear until he's given up ;p .
I mainly just use it for the increased attack speed, can be pretty useful sometimes.
04-04-2005, 09:10 AM
I've come to love Barkskin in PvE but I'll have to say that it has been nothing but a liability in PvP. Every time I've used it I've wished that I had just used travel to pull out of range and then cast what I had intended instead. Of course the problem with this tactic is that Frost Shock still snares us grrrr! It works fine against all but the adept Shaman because they usually just spam Frost Shock instead of Earth so you can use Barkskin to channel.
04-04-2005, 09:47 AM
Yeah as to all the pve stuff about barkskin, I know it has a purpose in pve. And yes I'm aware that there are mobs who can bash/stun, btu they are like 3% of all the mobs out there, and they don't have the AI to do it strategically. They just bash you at random intervals, they don't wait to see barkskin up and then go for the bash once they see you trying to heal.
Also remember barkskin does not reduce your attack damage, it reduces your attack speed. 20% slower attack speed is not a big deal, but 20% dmg reduction definitely is. It drops that 1400 dmg eviscerate down to 1120. If you're running away, then the attack speed thing is totally moot.
Over the weekend I've found the following pvp uses for it:
1. When fleeing from a zerg. You get in cheetah form and start running, but they are using all kinds of stuff to try and pin you down (intercept, hamstring, concussive shot, etc), so you have to keep shifting to break free. Meanwhile you're taking damage from spells and such. Generally it will be worth it to throw your barkskin on before running away, or in between shifts. Doesn't have any negative effects, and reduces the damage you're taking from those 5 enemy players trying to kill you.
2. Tranquility. In group pvp they will target you. You cheetah and run, they leave you alone. Run back towards your group, shift out and barkskin-tranquility. You won't get the full 10 seconds, but you may get 5 or 6 out of it, which in a 5 person group can be pretty mana-efficient. Not the greatest strat of all time, but there are cases where this can be useful and barkskin makes it work.
3. When a rogue uses evasion. You're not going to hit him until it wears off so the 20% attack speed reduction doesnt matter, and you aren't going to try a heal because your bash will miss almost guaranteed. Charge through him in bear form and keep running, shift-nature's grasp, barkskin, shift. Or if grasp isnt up, just use barkskin for the extra dmg mitigation.
4. Use it whenever its available. I haven't tried this yet, but I have been throwing the buff on myself more often in pvp. It's clear the 20% reduction far outweighs the attack speed reduction, so on that front having it on for 15s every minute is good. It is also clear that we cannot really use barkskin in pvp for the purpose of getting spells off uninterrupted. The only classes we could maybe use it in this way against are hunters and warlocks (bc they lack easy and reliable stuns). The rest of the classes will stop us one way or another, and that extra 1s just makes it easier for them to do it. So unless its clear you need to cast a heal soon and you don't have natures swiftness ready, you could maybe get away with keeping barkskin on yourself everytime its up.
Still not a very useful pvp spell, but there are some ways to work it in.
04-04-2005, 10:46 AM
It seems to me that Barkskin makes catform, tranquility, and hurricane more useful without overpowering our healing and bearform. Bearform is impacted by the attack speed reduction much more than cat form is. Why? Maul happens on your next attack where as the catform abilities happen when you have the energy. It's entirely independent of your attack speed, so you only get the reduction for nonability dps.
I don't have any experience with it other than what I've read on these boards, but from the sound of it, it's a well balanced ability that is only used in certain situations as opposed to the potential overpowered ability that everyone uses all the time. Personally I like abilities that make you think "should I use this?" as opposed to the cookiecutter always working abilities. Maybe thats why I took engineering?
04-04-2005, 11:01 AM
Barkskin is bugged, it doesnt reduce attack speed it increases it. Test it just melleeing and youll see. With my fist of stone (one hand mace) i hit constantly, as in one after the other non stop with barkskin on. With no barkskin there is a small break noticable.
04-04-2005, 11:27 AM
I'll have to check that bug thing out, as I am rarely attacking if I'm using barkskin. I'm either running or healing if its on. I have a hard time believing blizzard could be so stupid as to mistake a reduction for an increase, especially when it went through testing, and especially when they just got done dealing with a similar issue on seal of the crusader.
04-05-2005, 07:31 AM
Lol hard to believe mayby, but last time i tested it definately increased attack speed. Ive heard people saying things about a hotfix implemented, to my knowledge no such hotfix has been applies as of yet. I would go test it again myself, just to make sure it hasnt been hotfixed, but right now my mouse is playing up =[.
04-05-2005, 01:40 PM
Actually, it's a very very common Blizzard mistake to switch a + for a - and vice versa =-p
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