View Full Forums : Druid versus Shaman


Aitrus
04-19-2005, 09:32 AM
Ah my old nemesis the shaman, how I loathe thee with the uber-blizzard-buffs.

I could go on for pages about how ridiculous the shaman is, but I will instead use this thread to discuss 1v1 battles versus a shaman.

Today I started trying to chain-root a shaman while staying out of his shock range. I can do it, but his healing is far more efficient than my damage with starfire/moonfire/root. It takes forever (which on a pvp server is very bad since other horde will come by and interrupt with teh 2v1), and if he does anything tricky I have to burn innervate. However in a flat-out duel vs a shaman this WILL work (for now). Just be sure to have rank 1 moonfire loaded to nuke whatever totems he drops around himself.

Problem? This isn't going to be nearly as useful come the next patch. Roots will get diminshing returns and there will be no more chain-rooting the entire battle.

So lets explore the viable druid vs shaman pvp tricks and tactics.

First up root is important. Very important. Shaman shocks have a short range, and once he's landed one frost shock he will keep you in that 20 yard distance very easily... unless you use roots effectively. Always root and run before trying a heal (unless you're using nature's swiftness, or bash/shift/heal).

Two alternative tricks:

1. Cheetah form and pretend to run away, so he frost shocks you, then shift and heal since its 5s before his earth shock will be up again.
2. Fake him out with a hearthstone or starfire, drawing an earth shock, then heal (i doubt this works very well).

Root is by far the most reliable of these tricks for getting heals off.

More importantly is how you actually kill the shaman.

My bear form has 10.4K AC, but weighs in at only about 50dps in most fights (compared to 100dps caster and 135dps cat). I have found bear form to be very very bad versus a shaman. Despite the hefty AC, he windfury+light shield + shocks me down below half health incredibly fast. Meanwhile I do almost no damage to him thx to his mail + shield and bear's awful dps. This form is useful to buy some time, esp if you enrage + frenzied regen, but you won't win a fight vs a shaman with it (unlike say a rogue, where bear form will totally win the fight for you).

I have been experimenting with cat form a bit, and it has some potential I think. The biggest weakness of the cat is that if it gets frost shocked it's stuck. The bear has feral charge to stay close every 15s, the cat gets 1 dash every 5 minutes. But for some reason the cat's crappy ac/hp doesnt seem to be as bad versus shaman. Maybe that's all in my head, but my normal experience with cat is that you get 2 or 3 combo points up and then you gotta get out or your dead. I could regularly get 4 versus a shammy I was pking this morning (lvl 60) before needing to shift.

So to recap:
1. We can kill shamans via root-rot, but this will no longer work after the next patch.
2. We can get around shocks/purge via root and running before casting healing touch.
3. You must have rank 1 moonfire easily available for fast nuking of totems (I keep it right on my main bar in slot 2).
4. Bear form will buy you a bit of time, but the dps is just too low for it to even out damage his mana regen for heals.
5. Cat form may be a more viable tactic vs a shaman, but all he has to do is chain frost shock and the cat becomes pretty useless.


Anyone else have experience pvping shamans? I have much more confidence fighting them 1v1 now, but it just seems like if he's smart there's no way I can win simply because at the end of the day his healing is nearly as good as mine, and his dps is radically better than mine. I can stay alive, maybe even escape, but damaging him enough to kill him depends on innervate - which any half-decent shaman will purge within about 5s of it being cast.

Tips, thoughts, and advice much appreciated. This is my biggest weakness in pvp. I plan on scooping up some free action pots to let me deal with frost shock more easily, but shamans still give me by far the hardest time when I'm pking.

chloee
04-19-2005, 10:19 AM
Against other healing classes, I've stopped fighting to win. I fight to not lose. I can wait for reinforcements and otherwise simply never die against them. Our class is very defensive in nature, so I want to play to that advantage. In my mind, killing your opponent and not being killed by them are both victories in their own right. Often when playing this way, you will notice your opponent get impatient and play poorly, burning their mana for damage. At this stage, you can make the determination to go for the kill. I personally don't have the patience problem, but for some reason, most players have some sense of urgency about killing.

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 10:40 AM
My sense of urgency is based on the probability of more horde showing up the longer the fight takes. I usually pk in West Plague Lands, near felstone field. This is very close to a horde flight path, and is usually packed with people farming for argent dawn stones. Not many alliance around there, so the longer the fight goes the worse it is likely to be for me.

Of course the druid isn't a speedy killer anyways, but trying to play even more defensive than the class inherently has to be... (*shudder*)... I dunno, I think it could only make it harder on myself and more likely to get zerged.

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 12:24 PM
Consider this about shamans.. I asked my brother who has a high level shaman some questions and this is what he told me.

There is a restoration type. We have a similar talent to natures focus, that causes you to resist interuption. A few of our heals are considered mostly useless (Chain heal) - our ultimate is a 500 mana restore totem over 15 seconds for 31 points. (required 10 points in two very useless talents) Also we have natures swiftness. It is nowhere near as effective as the druid / priest.

1. no effective way to shuck aggro.
the worst healing efficency mana/hp wise of any class.
limited talents when compared to a priest or druid also specced for a healing type. Smallest Mana Pool.
2. Shamans cannot effectively or efficiently solo as a caster class. Therefore we need dps and armor. Takes away from our mana pool. ( some people may armor up for healing only.)
3. No HoT unless u consider healing totem one. And thats is a slap in the face. (I believe 16 hp every 2 or 3 seconds, with maxed out talents in it) My priest at lvl 42 can HoT for 80 every 3 seconds. and i hear it gets to as high at 162 with talents.
4. Frost Shock is losing its "Oh Wow" effect, even though I never believed it had one.
5. Every class has an effective counter to our supposed "I win" button. Every class can use a freemovement potion.
6. There are officially "totem killer" mods, that effectively target totems for the user. People are making mods to specifically destroy the functionality of the shaman. Totems are now 1 hit target dummies in pvp.
7. "Luck" factor. Windfurry officially makes the shaman a 1 hit wonder, and that is mostly with heavier weapons (the prefered weapon of the wf and stormstrike shaman. (Stormstrike is the 31 talent point enhance build skill. Procs another 1 hit any time, and causes the next 2 nature damages to be increased by 20%. for 450 mana)) A lot of the shamans killing power is burst dps. Windfurry + Elemental Fury or Stormstrike. Take your pick. If you are a shaman with Natures swiftness (which all pvp shamans swear by) then you are relaying even more on luck, because u will have no on command heavy hits. (again, elemental fury and stormstrike.)
8. Nerfed Purge. Our equalizer is now gone.
9. Our ability to use mail is either A) Outshined by any other classes dps "accept for druid" (who outshine us everywhere else) b) the fact that mail doesnt do crap against 4/9 classes in the game.
9. Our PVE viability is still quite there. We are great for filling in that last spot. But nobody will ever ask us to tank / main heal/ or AOE past a certain level. We can do none of these effectively, without completeoy forgoing the other things. And even then, we cannot do it nearly as well as the other classes do. We cannot hold aggro without mana, we CANNOT hold aggro without armor, or we die!
10. The shaman is a very stat dependant class. Strengthening one area weakens another. This is also the case with druids / paladins. However, Both of these classes can heal better, and also tank better. The shaman easily out dps's both these classes however.
11. Shamans have the worst looking pvp set of any class =/

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 01:05 PM
that's pretty funny. I think your friend needs to look at what his shaman has.

The shortlist:

1. Ability to counter a spell every 5s + add 2s delay to that school. (earth shock).
2. Ability to instant-cast crit for over 1000 damage + 8s slow efect (frost shock).
3. More AC than any class besides paladin, warrior, and druid in bear form.
4. Ability to cast FAST heals at efficiency of 2.4 hp/mana (druid is 2.75/mana).
5. Ability to PURGE all enemy buffs including HoT's, Innervate, and Nature's Swiftness.
6. Ability to dish out more dps than a warrior, druid, paladin, and priest (windfury).
7. Ability to escape combat like a druid (frost-shock + ghost wolf)

I could care less about the shaman's pve troubles. Druids can't ditch aggro either, and when things hit us it HURTS unlike shamans with 5k base AC. Cry about dps for soloing? you must be kidding me. Mobs don't have the AI to attack your totems, and you hit 2x as hard as a druid.

As far as I can tell the shaman has 2 weaknesses only.

1. Limited mana pool - which is a decision on gear and nobody's fault but the shaman himself's.
2. Limited range on shocks. 20 yds is nothing to sneeze at, but its enough that we have some opportunity to abuse it. They can still heal, chain lightning, and drop grounding totems around their feet when out of shock range, and they can ghost wolf to catch up, but range is a weakness - albeit not a huge one.

Cenaurius
04-19-2005, 01:28 PM
i think i read somewhere that in the upcoming patch druids will be able to shift out of polymorph, which to me was an unlooked for but of course nice change. since we're on the shaman subject, any idea if they're fixing the bug that allows frost shock to stay on you when you shift forms?

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 01:36 PM
Nah, instead of fixing the frost bug that we cared about they gave us another overpowered and unasked for buff making us able to break pmorph and seduce at will.

IMO mages had it bad enough with us being immune in forms. At least they had a chance to land it if we shifted and went for a heal. Now they simply cannot use pmorph against us at all.

At least frost stuff gets diminishing returns now tho, that's nice.

TheShambler
04-19-2005, 02:15 PM
Long Rambling Post incoming:

Half the people in our guild play shamans and ive got pretty good at beating shamans in duels. This is probably cos the shaman havnt yet learnt to duel properly and try using their easy-win strat all the time. from what ive seen this consists of 2 strats:

1. Shock shock shock shock shock oom
2. totem totem totem shock shock shock oom

bear form counters these easily, and hitting totems as soon as they come up just wastes his mana. when shaman spam high dmg spells they run out of mana very fast, and one bash heal counters this completely.

However, i still have a problem with shaman - even when they are oom i cant finish them off quickly. their mana regen is good enough so that they can heal faster than i can do damage in bear from. eventually i can finish him off, but it takes forever. i can see why you are afraid of horde turning up.

Due to the huge amount of them in my guild im very used to having them in instances, and i quite like it. A shaman is very useful in an instance. Self res is a dream. If im a main healer in an instance i NEED a shaman with me, not just for back up healing but because he has a low-cooldown res. The only reason i can see a shaman will have trouble getting into an instance group is because there is too many damn shaman in the group already.

I also disagree with what badge said about not being asked to be a main tank. Maybe not in 5 man groups, but we've 10 maned scholo many times with only a shaman to hold the agro. The next day a 5 man group from our guild got to the second last boss of scholo (the water guy) with only a shaman. (they had THE keefe healing though, he's imba - http://forums.priestshaven.com/member.php?userid=180).

Shaman are great, and the amount of people playing as shaman shows this. We get the last laugh though. they have 5 other people to roll againsts in instances :D

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 02:29 PM
Yep, that's what I've been finding. People say shaman minus mana = dead shaman, but I can't finish them off (at least not in bear form) in any reasonable amount of time. It seems like they only need the tiniest blip of mana and they get half their hp back.

If I'm still loaded on mana at this point (unlikely) I can root starfire/moonfire ftw... but usually im hurting for mana too if its been a fair 1v1 duel without ganking or whatever.

shaman hits mofo hard with windfury, has damn nice ac with mail/shield. Competing with his dps requires bear, but bear can't dmg fast enough vs his armor. Meleeing with caster seems like a suicide mission, thus I was musing about cat as a more viable form versus shaman, assuming he doesn't just chew me up with his dps since cat has crap ac/hp.

It'll be interesting to see how dimi returns on root and frost shock change the dynamic of shammy v druid tho.

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 03:41 PM
In PvP its all about Mana Management vs any Healing class. Bear form for a druid is EVERYTHING. Last night I was with a shaman 9 levels above me and I had more armor in bear form than he had.

Aitrus
04-19-2005, 03:55 PM
yeah too bad your 10% ac advantage there would be trumped by his 500% dps advantage.

I would be curious to know what kind of dps shamans do regularly. I'm guessing 200+.

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 03:58 PM
Must suck being a night elf. LoL War Stomp for teh win

Starky
04-19-2005, 05:14 PM
Unless you can get a shaman to blow his entire load on you before you run out of mana from healing/shifting, you'll be in trouble. Shamans do more DPS on a druid in bearform (even with over 9k armour - the shocks contribute a lot to this, and thanks to diminishing armour returns, any more than 8.5k or so won't dent his dps) than you can do back to him. Innervate is next to useless, any shaman that has any idea of what he is doing has purge bound to his right mouse button (will be lucky to get a swiftness off even). The whole root/nuke out of range thing isn't a great idea either, as he has grounding totems/lightning bolt which has the same range as ours afaik (he can stick a grounding totem down while you're casting).

I don't see how catform would work, the extra 50 dps won't make a slight difference as it's all melee damage against his 5k armour/block/parry (if specced that way) and no interrupts for his heals.

The only shamans I've beaten were very bad shamans who didn't know what earthshock or purge were.

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 05:30 PM
Shamans are meant to be all around decent char's. They dont accel particularly at anything but they can do everything. When I've beat shaman's its only because I saved my mana as much as possible and he went OOM.

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 06:45 PM
The following comes from my brother who is unable to get onto these forums due to limited internet capabilities.

that's pretty funny. I think your friend needs to look at what his shaman has.

The shortlist:

1. Ability to counter a spell every 5s + add 2s delay to that school. (earth shock).
2. Ability to instant-cast crit for over 1000 damage + 8s slow efect (frost shock).
3. More AC than any class besides paladin, warrior, and druid in bear form.
4. Ability to cast FAST heals at efficiency of 2.4 hp/mana (druid is 2.75/mana).
5. Ability to PURGE all enemy buffs including HoT's, Innervate, and Nature's Swiftness.
6. Ability to dish out more dps than a warrior, druid, paladin, and priest (windfury).
7. Ability to escape combat like a druid (frost-shock + ghost wolf)

- I have to Point something out here... If a Shaman goes GHOST WOLF. then you can HIBERNATE HIM. or use roots!

-Do we need to get into a shouting match about who has what? Moot point. Thanks for pointing out what i already know.

I could care less about the shaman's pve troubles. Druids can't ditch aggro either, and when things hit us it HURTS unlike shamans with 5k base AC. Cry about dps for soloing? you must be kidding me. Mobs don't have the AI to attack your totems, and you hit 2x as hard as a druid.

- I had no idea this was a post about pvp for druid vs shaman - Who was crying about dps? Please read before posting. This only proves your out for sympathy.

As far as I can tell the shaman has 2 weaknesses only.

1. Limited mana pool - which is a decision on gear and nobody's fault but the shaman himself's.
2. Limited range on shocks. 20 yds is nothing to sneeze at, but its enough that we have some opportunity to abuse it. They can still heal, chain lightning, and drop grounding totems around their feet when out of shock range, and they can ghost wolf to catch up, but range is a weakness - albeit not a huge one.

Now - onto the shaman vs druid debate.

Quite frankly, if you are a restoration specced druid, your going to have a hard time against any shaman. Countering magic is what we do best. Grounding totem and earth shock make us formidable in this department. That being said, a restoration druid could win with a combination of bear / root / innervate. Of course, that would be pretty tough to pull off.

So what is your best chance against a Shaman? Bear form and swift shifting. Being able to use these effectively will greatly help your chances against any shaman. Any good pvp shaman KNOWS his best bet in a pvp match with another healing type is to OUTLIVE the other. Every Healer vs Healer duel goes exactly like this (Different story with shadow priests). He who conserves the most mana wins.

That being said, druids can have huge ac in bear form. Use this. Some druids say they have no problem meleeing shamans, some dont. This is no fault or deficcency in the class. Spec your druid accordingly or lose.
Your hole point about our UBER dps is stupid and futile. If we get lucky and string 3 WF's and drop stormstrike on you with our Hammer of the Titans, then, well... your done for. This is just the nature of the shaman. I personally like to go with daggers due to casting interruption that they can cause against mages and priests. Even with the fast speed, i have gone whole duels with no WF proc. Such is life, get over it. If you critted a bunch of times with bear form then bashed me while i healed, i wouldnt call this a deficency in my class, or an uberness in yours.

Now, on to my strategy when fighting druids. Basically i need to make you shift, or, cause you focus on something else (totems). What i do to start off a fight is to drop a lvl 1 searing totem. If you are in bear form you will take almost 3-5 seconds to re - target me and attack again if you go after it. If you dont, then i start dropping earthbind and grace of air. You have a few choices of action here.

1. Run away from the totems. Probably your best bet, as you can
attack and effectively cause the shaman to waste 900 mana.
2. shift into caster and moonfire. Bad idea, as you will either a)
use up a stun or b) jet jacked.
3. smack them in bear form. This is also a good choice if u pick and
choose witch totem to kill. (Grace of air and earthbind above all
else) A good shaman never goes totem crazy.

I cannot reiterate how important feral and swiftshifting is for a druid against a shaman. If you are fully restoration specced or balance specced, you will lose 60% of the time against an = matched shaman. Luck is of course, always an x factor, as well as Wind Furry Procs. If you are a Night Elf Druid, well, good luck to you. Thats what you get for choosing the zerg side + the Flavor of Forever Race. I hope you have either a) a friend or b) improved bash.

I think my point is, there is no deficency in your class or an uberness in the shaman, you are just improperly specced. I am your rock and you are my sciccors.

Now, back to how to beat the shaman. I will say it now again, and probaly somewhere again in this post. This is a battle against who has to heal the least, and cause the other to heal the most. Unfortunetly for you, you have to shift to heal yourself, OR, use frenzied regenration. Using root will help you get a bandaid in when the shaman can not. I would recommend using this. If you need to use innervate, by all means people, use it where the shaman CANNOT purge you. ROOT HIM.
Even with diminishing returns, this will still be a very viable strategy. Healing Touch and Natures Focus will probably be your best friend. Now, i say this also. If the shaman has the belt that negates the roots, and u are a restoration build, good luck. Smart shaman.


First Person Shooter
How to kill the shaman
- This is a battle of attrition (again) Beat on him in bear form and use frenzied regeneration when applicable. Bash Him and root him. If he shocks you (due to lack of bash talent), then WAIT 2 SECONDS, and heal AGAIN! - Here is a little secret I learned. WHen you start to run, the shaman will instintively FROST SHOCK you. GUESS WHAT? YOU CAN NOW SHIFT AND HEAL WITH IMPUNITY!
Now, this best works with a bit of creativity, Use feral charge on him, then run THROUGH him. This will get u some space. Keep running and he will most likely frost shock you. Instantly go into caster and either a) root or b) heal. Then its right back into bear form. I CANNOT SAY IT ENOUGH. This is a battle of attrition! Most good druids will have natures focus (if not all) Natures grasp should also be very effective for that first heal. I do not recommend using this initally, as it should be saved for a heal. Apply fairy fire after a heal where they are not beating on you.

Now, finally, how to kill the shaman. --- Beat on him till hes dead ---.... If he starts to run, fairy fire and beat on him till hes dead.
That is all the help i can offer.

As to Frost Shock Chaining.... PLEASE.. Worst strategy ever. Now u can stop pussy footing about it when diminshing comes back.

Now, as far as Shaman PVE viability ( i know this was originally off topic now)

Yes, we can main tank in a 10 man raid group in UBRS Maraudon etc etc.

a priest can main tank ins UBRS maraudon ETC ETC, in a 10 man group, 15 man group.

Mage in 20 man group... you get the point.

I was specifically thinking of a 5 man non raid. Shaman does not qualify as a tank.

Grind wise we do just fine. I can go non stop fighting greens, and i am
31 in elemental, the rest in enhance. (not the ideal grinding build) No arguement here.

Main heal as a shaman? Doable. Going to need 31 in restoration, and some damn good tanks. Even then, any boss is going to take the lvl 31 restoration totem + a fatty mana potion.

A shaman with 31 points in restoration is gimping himself everywhere else. this is not the case in the other two lines

Any druid who complains about a shaman's PVE utility is just a moron.
Druids can main heal, tank, and STEALTH! last night me and my brother ran wailing caverns with a friend, and we were lvl 21. We even killed the boss. (thank you combat res)

So please... I dont want to hear any of your wining. Adapt or die.

------------

Needless to say, my brother gets his point across.

TheShambler
04-19-2005, 06:56 PM
So please... I dont want to hear any of your wining. Adapt or die.

Someones been on the official wow forums to much. This thread was about how druids should beat shaman in pvp, now its turned into a stupid moan-a-bout with everyone getting at everyone.

We've brought shame to druidism :(

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 07:00 PM
LoL

too funny..

just because you're a druid doesnt mean you have to neglect the nature of the beast. that said, it doesnt mean you dont respect.

TheShambler
04-19-2005, 07:07 PM
"it doesnt mean you dont respect."

that was my point exactly

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 07:07 PM
I love forums..

regardless of opinions/debates/flaming...

if we were all to get together and discuss WoW, we would all have a good time and get along

Badgemagus
04-19-2005, 07:31 PM
2. Fake him out with a hearthstone or starfire, drawing an earth shock, then heal (i doubt this works very well).

LoL.. Im going to try this just for ****s

Edit: dwelling upon it, can you actually hearth in battle?

Falloraan
04-20-2005, 10:43 AM
Edit: dwelling upon it, can you actually hearth in battle?
Yes.

TheShambler
04-20-2005, 11:26 AM
Yeah i love the hearth stone trick. never seem to get it to work though :

Thinking a long the same lines, port to moonglade looks very much like starfire :D

Gooby
04-20-2005, 12:05 PM
I don't see how catform would work, the extra 50 dps won't make a slight difference as it's all melee damage against his 5k armour/block/parry (if specced that way) and no interrupts for his heals.

Cat form has 2 dot attacks. AC means 0 for dot attacks, so I'd recommend using these as much as possible. This is one advantage of cat vs. bear for high ac people. Probably why Aitrus suggested it as an option.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the shaman is going totem crazy they usually have the totems all in one spot next to you. Bear > swipe is usually my solution for this.

chloee
04-20-2005, 12:20 PM
Are you sure swipe hits totems? I don't recall that working for me.

Stormhaven
04-20-2005, 12:23 PM
Swipe doesn't hit totems

Starky
04-20-2005, 12:30 PM
Cat form has 2 dot attacks. AC means 0 for dot attacks, so I'd recommend using these as much as possible. This is one advantage of cat vs. bear for high ac people. Probably why Aitrus suggested it as an option.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the shaman is going totem crazy they usually have the totems all in one spot next to you. Bear > swipe is usually my solution for this.

Unless you're fully catform specced and have a fat load of stamina, you won't be living long enough for those dots to do anything. Rip lasts 12 seconds afaik, and if he hasnt blown all his mana and killed you by then, you'll win anyway.

Astrel
04-20-2005, 12:49 PM
That's why most people throw up Rejuv+Regrowth before shifting. Gives you a cushion to actually use Catform for more than a few seconds against a Shammy.

Gooby
04-20-2005, 12:54 PM
Swipe doesn't hit totems

Wow guess I'm oblivious. Could have sworn it did.... It should. Why would a bear swinging his paw hit a bunch of creatures but not stationary poles? :P

Unless you're fully catform specced and have a fat load of stamina, you won't be living long enough for those dots to do anything. Rip lasts 12 seconds afaik, and if he hasnt blown all his mana and killed you by then, you'll win anyway.

I was merely pointing out that the shaman's ac would not decrease the damage these attacks do as it does with bear form.

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 09:47 AM
- I have to Point something out here... If a Shaman goes GHOST WOLF. then you can HIBERNATE HIM. or use roots!

This wasn't directed specifically to druid vs shaman. I was pointing out you have a very important pvp ability to escape combat, similar to druid root+cheetah and rogue blind+sprint/vanish.


a restoration druid could win with a combination of bear / root / innervate. Of course, that would be pretty tough to pull off.

As soon as you suggest innervate as a meaningful part of druid vs shaman strategy you pretty much show your ignorance. I can't root the shaman for 20s now with diminishing returns. I would basically have to root, innervate, and cheetah and run away for 20s. During this time he could sit and eat/drink, mount up and go away, call in the zerg patrol, etc.


So what is your best chance against a Shaman? Bear form and swift shifting... That being said, druids can have huge ac in bear form. Use this. Some druids say they have no problem meleeing shamans, some dont. This is no fault or deficcency in the class. Spec your druid accordingly or lose.

After patch I have 9.7K AC in bear. Yet shamans tear through my bear form like a light sabre through butter. 500dmg minimum every 5s from shocks + reasonable dmg from windfury (and as you said its a battle of attrition, don't tell me windfury isnt going to proc). Not sure if you're aware of this or not but bear form dps is HORRID. You can regen mana faster than my bear can do damage. The only success I've had versus shaman has been via root + moonfire/starfire. I can bring a shaman to 15% hp, but if I have to go bear form, he will not die ever. He can regen and heal faster than I can do damage with bear. This was the whole problem I posited in the initial post.


1. Run away from the totems. Probably your best bet, as you can attack and effectively cause the shaman to waste 900 mana.

I've been debating this. I keep lvl 1 moonfire on my main bar, so I can fry all totems with ease when in caster form. Never really have time to look at the totems to closely to see if they're lvl 1s or not... so if he starts dropping them when I'm in bear/cat I usually choose to attack them rather than leave them there or run away. I doubt most shamans are dropping the tier 1 totems, if they are its just a good trick, plain and simple.


If you are a Night Elf Druid, well, good luck to you. Thats what you get for choosing the zerg side + the Flavor of Forever Race.

You know I was gonna be a gnome druid... oh right... druid alliance can only be NE. We don't get a choice of race. If you're gonna be a smartass about things at least try to think before tossing out random pointless insults. Warstomp > Shadowmeld, if anything being NE is a self-nerf. As for the zerg factor, I invite you to visit Illidan and see how bad horde zerg is on our server.


I think my point is, there is no deficency in your class or an uberness in the shaman, you are just improperly specced. I am your rock and you are my sciccors.

Have you ever looked at the druid talent trees? There is 1 spec that is far and above the best which is some combination of 31-33 restore, 11 feral, and the rest balance. The only remotely viable alternative is a 21/21 build feral/restore with the rest wherever. In all cases the loss of improved regrowth and innervate is a self-gimp compared to the garbage the other trees have. A feral druid would get chewed up even faster than a restore spec druid, so your argument about me just picking the wrong talents is completely bogus. I recommend www.thottbot.com. Look at the druid trees, and you will see exactly what I mean. Upper level balance/feral = crap.


Here is a little secret I learned. WHen you start to run, the shaman will instintively FROST SHOCK you. GUESS WHAT? YOU CAN NOW SHIFT AND HEAL WITH IMPUNITY!

Pretty sure I said that in my initial post. Thanks for the insight though.


Apply fairy fire after a heal where they are not beating on you.

Obviously you don't know how completely useless faerie fire is against everyone besides rogues and other druids.

Now, finally, how to kill the shaman. --- Beat on him till hes dead ---.... If he starts to run, fairy fire and beat on him till hes dead. That is all the help i can offer.

Is this a joke? How to kill him: beat on him till he's dead. Oh, and use our uber-power faerie fire. All I can say is wow.

Any druid who complains about a shaman's PVE utility is just a moron.

Remember the part where I said I could care less about your pve problems? Right. If you want to talk about this find wowshamans.com or blizzardsfavouriteclass.com, whatever their site is.

So please... I dont want to hear any of your wining. Adapt or die.

I'll assume you meant Winning since your post had nothing at all useful for druid vs shaman besides pointing out that some shamans drop lvl 1 totems as decoys. Thus your goal as a shaman is to prevent me from winning, by providing useless information and making inflamatory remarks.

------------

Needless to say, my brother gets his point across.

He had a point?

Ndainye
04-21-2005, 09:58 AM
Wow guess I'm oblivious. Could have sworn it did.... It should. Why would a bear swinging his paw hit a bunch of creatures but not stationary poles? :P

Swipe won't hit totems if you have the shaman targeted. If you have the totem targeted you can swipe and hit both the totem and the shaman.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 12:43 PM
He had a point?

1. Dont get me started

2. Go watch a Rubix video. Your arguement is moot.

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 01:00 PM
bear form + faerie fire > shaman?
innervate > shaman?
restoration tree = teh sux?

btw I have no idea what a rubix video is.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 01:20 PM
Comments from my brother regarding Aitrus' last reply.

--------

After reading the entirety of the post, i decided to include a few more comments.

1. If he is rooted, he cannot eat/ drink. If he is not rooted, pop into his 30 yard range and do a blast, then walk back out. he cannot eat or drink anymore. He is forced to chase. Please get more creative..

2. Yes, i have looked at it extensively, and have invested in feral with my druid so far. I will probably go for natures focus + swiftshifting after i get the mana cost reduction talent in feral, and either improved pounce / shred / or ravage. I have not decided which one to get yet. Although after the new patch our rip ability is gone (bugged). Thottbot talent calculator is crap. Try this one out for size. http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Talents.View - Notice, every time it loads it starts in the druid talent trees. I've seen this talent tree 100 times.

3. Do you have furor? With swiftshifting it is cheaper to go into travel form then into bear form. Use this to your advantage. Get away from him in travel form, shift to caster then bear, and use feral charge on him. Feral charge is on a 15 second cooldown. Use this to your advantage. I understand bash in not a reliable skill, as it misses a ton. Make him go on the defensive. If he needs to heal he has two choices. He can a) take the hits if he knows your bash cool down is still on or he can b) frost shock and try and get distance. If he tries to get distance, let him. BACK UP! you can feral charge him again every 15 seconds. Your kill point will probably come from a combination of charge + bash, then into caster for a few hundred moonfires.

I am very interested in seeing your talent build. - Please do share.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 01:24 PM
bear form + faerie fire > shaman?
innervate > shaman?
restoration tree = teh sux?

btw I have no idea what a rubix video is.

Rubix is the name of a Druid who has made some good PvP video's. It's really worth taking a look at. Also take a look at another Druid named Ferahgo. He's made some real quality PvP video's which I prefer over Rubix. My brother on the other hand prefer's Rubix.

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 01:34 PM
I think you're confused.

You said we could use innervate versus a shaman by rooting him and staying out of purge range (30 yards).

Root has 35 yard range, 42 with nature's reach. So yes in theory this would work. However Innervate lasts 20 seconds. Root now has diminishing returns, so holding him there for 10s, let alone 20, is not very probable, and he needs to close a whopping 12 yards if your root breaks to purge you.

Thus the only way would be to root and cheetah away while innervate does its stuff. Root only needs to hold for a few seconds and you can be well outside his range. However unless you cheetah incredibly strategically, swinging around to watch when he's chasing you and when he isn't, you'll probably break combat. Thus he can mount up and run, sit down and drink, get on general chan and call for help, whatever. Not usually a brilliant strat to break combat unless you're just trying to run away.

Point 1:
You say "pop back into his 30 yard range and do a blast" if he drinks. Wow. Wouldn't that put me back into purge range? Yes, yes I think it would. And wasn't the whole point to stay out of purge range? Yes... yes I believe it was.

The fact is your chances of using innervate versus a competent shaman are slim to nil, and you can't make it a significant part of your plan. I try it all the time, half of shamans have iq under 40 because its the easiest class to play in the game, so most don't even know what purge does so innervate will work. But versus any shaman worth his salt there is no way you're getting innervate's full duration.

point 2
How exactly can a talent calculator be crap? It lets you put points in to look at your tree, what the hell else do you need it to do?

point 3

You realize his heal wave is 1.5s cast... and there is a 1s universal cooldown after you shift. So you've got a 0.5s window to shift and charge the instant you see him going for a heal. Definitely nowhere near the time to do cheetah-caster-bear to save yourself 100 mana. Feral charge is good, but interrupting spells is far from easy with it because of the distance requirement and the universal 1s timer.

my talent build is available in the allakhazam link in my sig, as are my skills and equipment.

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 01:41 PM
Rubix is the name of a Druid who has made some good PvP video's. It's really worth taking a look at. Also take a look at another Druid named Ferahgo. He's made some real quality PvP video's which I prefer over Rubix. My brother on the other hand prefer's Rubix.

anyone with the patience and willingness to buy fraps can make a video that makes them seem uber. you cut out all your losses and show all your wins. big whoop.

I'm also not sure how watching rubix' video is supposed to have anything to do with my "point". Does he faerie fire shamans to death and innervate vs them?

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 01:50 PM
anyone with the patience and willingness to buy fraps can make a video that makes them seem uber. you cut out all your losses and show all your wins. big whoop.

I'm also not sure how watching rubix' video is supposed to have anything to do with my "point". Does he faerie fire shamans to death and innervate vs them?

DOWNLOAD AND WATCH RUBIX

DOWNLOAD AND WATCH FERAHGO

They are not God's.. we DO NOT expect them to NOT lose.. please dude..

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 02:06 PM
1. im not downloading a 300mb showboat cut-and-paste video.
2. what do these videos have to do with druid vs shaman pvp exactly?

Believe me, if I bought fraps and had the patience to edit I could easily make a druid pvp video that would make every noob on the WoW forums go "omfg! wowz lolz druid is tehbest! see druids dun sux0r!!"

I never lose to rogues, warriors, mages, holy/disc priests, or hunters in 1v1. Never. Shamans im like 50% on, shadow priests I can't beat unless they're stupid, and if a warlock knows how to use his felhunter I'm usually screwed (altho if he uses imp or VW hes 100% dead 100% of the time). I don't have to fight pally's but in duels I've never beat them, and every fight lasts 30 minutes or more.

So no, I don't need to watch some spliced pvp video with numetal **** music to learn anything. When I need to learn something I ask the people on this board. They're usually smarter than 99% of people on official forums, and I don't have to download 300mb of self-congratulatory crap to get new ideas from them.

King Burgundy
04-21-2005, 02:06 PM
I've watched the videos multiple times and still fail to see your point. Or I suppose it would be your brother's point.

Nothing in those videos corresponds with any of the "tips" that he/you have listed.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 02:21 PM
I'm done with this thread. I've laid out what I am going to contribute and I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to help you out with your Shaman problem. Anything that my brother has to say I will not post. It seems you are not willing to take the information that you are trying to "learn". This has turned into a big debate that I'm not willing to put effort into. Take the information for what its worth man..

btw.. nice job on the leet speak. i was impressed

Cenaurius
04-21-2005, 02:23 PM
save this kind of immature hostility for the official forums, it has no place here.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 02:27 PM
dude, i dont know where you're getting any vibe of hostility

Aitrus
04-21-2005, 02:47 PM
All I know is you had 3 experienced druids: myself, starky, and shambler, all say that bear form cannot kill a shaman and that we need to figure out some other way (possibly cat DoTs - if rip wasnt screwed right now of course), to finish shaman off.

To which you chimed in "Bear form for a druid is EVERYTHING. Last night I was with a shaman 9 levels above me and I had more armor in bear form than he had."

And your "brother" adds: "what is your best chance against a Shaman? Bear form and swift shifting. "

When we point out this is a contradiction to our experience in-game you say ""So please... I dont want to hear any of your wining. Adapt or die." and toss in a "It seems you are not willing to take the information that you are trying to "learn"." for good measure.

hrm.

Badgemagus
04-21-2005, 02:48 PM
Dude, why are you trying so hard?

Yrys
04-21-2005, 02:55 PM
Off to the ruins. As Crimson would say, let's keep it civil please. :P

Ciwt
04-22-2005, 08:03 AM
I duelled a shaman yester. Dont know if he sucked. Im feral specced right now for lvling, so i dont really got nature instant thingie or innervate, but i cast regrowth and then go bear, saves my rage for frenzied reg. He had no mana after i healed first time. I had almost full mana, he was so easy :D But since im horde on a pve server i dont duel shamans so much, he might just sucked

Aitrus
04-22-2005, 09:10 AM
If you beat him in bearform by using regrowth, then he was possibly the worst shaman of every server.

chloee
04-22-2005, 09:41 AM
I feel it very much depends on how the shaman plays Aitrus. There are a few different and very viable Shaman builds and styles. This reason is why, as I said earlier, I play defensively and look for the counterstrategy for the one they use. I'd say out of every 10 Shaman I fight, I kill 4, run from 4, and die to 2 usually due to the stupid Frost Shock bug. Basically, I don't feel too threatened by them like others and my gear is pretty impressively bad right now as this character is my second and just recently hit 60. I'm concerned that you want to believe they are the best class so much that you defend any thought of them not being impervious to things we can do. Relax a little, you don't have to prove anything to us and take it to the grave, we're all friends here :)

<3Chloee

Aitrus
04-22-2005, 09:45 AM
I speak from experience, not from an invented vendetta.

Astrel
04-22-2005, 12:22 PM
Shamans still aren't that much a threat. Granted all their strenghts and little weaknesses smart druids can still win. Maybe I got lucky recently, but my last fight with a Shammy was pretty quick, Opened with a 800 (I'm only a 52 Druid Resto specc'd for instances) crit Ravage, Regrowth +Rejuv, and went into a Bear, Feral Charged, then Stunned when he tried healing, then Just finished him from there. It usually works that way most of the time when I fight. I treat em like Pre-40 Warriors when I fight em. Never had a problem.

Aitrus
04-22-2005, 12:36 PM
If you get to use regrowth and rejuv vs a shaman you know you're fighting a retard shaman who should probably cancel his account.

FYI Shamans have a spell called purge. If they do not spam it in pvp, ESPECIALLY vs druids, then they aren't worth their frost shock pre-nerf.

Badgemagus
04-22-2005, 01:12 PM
I feel it very much depends on how the shaman plays Aitrus. There are a few different and very viable Shaman builds and styles. This reason is why, as I said earlier, I play defensively and look for the counterstrategy for the one they use. I'd say out of every 10 Shaman I fight, I kill 4, run from 4, and die to 2 usually due to the stupid Frost Shock bug. Basically, I don't feel too threatened by them like others and my gear is pretty impressively bad right now as this character is my second and just recently hit 60. I'm concerned that you want to believe they are the best class so much that you defend any thought of them not being impervious to things we can do. Relax a little, you don't have to prove anything to us and take it to the grave, we're all friends here :)

<3Chloee

Thank You. You're my new best friend.

Ciwt
04-29-2005, 12:46 PM
I have no idea how to beat a shaman now that they have their root-removing-honor-system-trinket thingie.

Falloraan
04-29-2005, 12:52 PM
Don't shaman have a totem that removes root/snare effects anyway?

Aitrus
04-29-2005, 12:58 PM
yep, grounding totem.

But according to shaman we pwn them and they can't get out of our root, while we can get out of frost shock.

Shamanview of World of Shamancraft

Auric
04-30-2005, 07:53 AM
I could go on for pages about how ridiculous the shaman is, but I will instead use this thread to discuss 1v1 battles versus a shaman.

Second line in the original post.

The only thing a Shaman needs to do to win vs a druid is keep a purge and interrupt ready and frost shock. GG.

The post above this one will tell you differently, but only because he doesn't want a big fat nerf.

I like to smile
05-05-2005, 03:18 PM
I just finished reading this, thread "IN ITS ENTIRETY"(which, fyi, is the correct usage of the phrase/word) :tongue: anyway... it has certainly been an interesting 20 minutes. It seems to me that Badgemagus really has something to prove, given his usage (correct or not) of such fancy terms/phrases. hehe. but even so, at least he tried to articulate his point and reasoning in an elegant manner."i be givin him sum mad props fo dat shtuff yo."(buahahahha)


i currently have a level 55 rogue and a 34 druid and have some extensive pvp'ing experience with them both. i know level 34 isn't much, but combining my high level pvp experience with my rogue and the overall feel that i have so far with my druid, i have come up with this opinion: although the shaman class has a very high potential for damage(their wf proc and fs crit) the longer you can stay in bear form, and the longer you can drag the battle, the higher chance you have of winning. Now, comming up with a better strategy, imo, might be impossible untill the next patch(seeing as how we can't just spam roots anymore, and the extremely low dps we have in bear form makes it so that against anything that has mail armor or better it just becomes a way to regen our mana without taking massive ammounts of damage.(then again you could just try running away in travel form hehehehee... hehehe). i like the cat form idea. people always underestimate the damage that we can do to higher armored people while in it. :P With all of that said, i have a question to all of you out there with a feral/rest build. do you guys really not like imp moonfire and entangling roots that much?? there have been many times where imp roots saved my life. maybe it is just because im not that good with my druid and cant escape and heal that well if i don't root.

currently im going for an overall spread out build with 18 balance 11 feral and 22 rest. i have moonfire, ss, feral charge, and natures swiftness. although innervate is really good, it is on a 6 min cooldown and can be purged, where moonfire is constantly damaging the target, and is pretty nice when you can string together a crit or two instantly when you're trying to finish off a target.


Aitrus, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject of druids and i would really appreciate your insight on this subject. and want to know why my build isn't viable in your opinion.


(edited for clarity/.... grammar.... sometimes i don't type exactly what im saying to myself in my head.....)

Cenaurius
05-05-2005, 04:33 PM
i am specced to 18 bal/33 restor because i prefer caster form to our limited functionality in forms. improved moonfire, nature's reach, and a guarantee to root someone who hits me is pretty fantastic imo.

Mazikeen
05-05-2005, 05:11 PM
i am specced to 18 bal/33 restor because i prefer caster form to our limited functionality in forms. improved moonfire, nature's reach, and a guarantee to root someone who hits me is pretty fantastic imo.

I went starfire as opposed to moonfire, but am not overly thrilled with it, I feel it should stun more often, and for a second longer. In your view, what has the moon stack done for you? My wrath build has been very nice, and crits quite often, star not so often, stun even less. Anyone got some max star crit numbers? mine has been a fairly weak 800ish as far as I've seen.

Basicallyl, with the extended cast, the, to me, dismal return for the mana hp wise, I"m pretty dissapointed with the star stack :( I was hoping for the stun strongly, my goal was to lead in an attack on unaware mob, or rooted target with my star, hope for a crit, land a fairly predictable stun, and use the stun for a free wrath shot of between 250-400hp, then a moon instant as they are charging me. It's just not working that well as the stun and star crits seem to rare.

Cenaurius
05-06-2005, 09:56 AM
i think improved moonfire undoubtedly is better than starfire stun chance. moonfire is always 10% better, whereas starfire has a what? 15% chance to stun? as you said, given how long it takes to cast and how much mana it consumes, i prefer to use wrath unless i come upon an unsuspecting player. moonfire is the essential damage spell available to us, so if a druid is considering improving the effectivenes of any of our dmg dealing spells, i think they ought to start with moonfire.

as a side note, i discovered the elven lodge populated with npcs in epl last night. two 60 warlocks were there, apparently questing. i took them both out with ease :). ravage crit opener ftw!

Kabaoum
05-07-2005, 01:59 AM
I took a restoration druid to level 40 on a pve server before I switched to pvp, my druid is now 44 with a full feral build, and I have yet to find a shaman my level who is able to stand up to me. The thing with the earth shock or frost shock is they can only use one or the other. the spells are on the same timer, and are fairly mana-costly. I find that bearform tends to be more than most shaman can handle, and if things get bad I can always shift to druid and pull off a heal. Most shaman spam the shock line, they can only cast it once every 5-6 seconds(depending on talent points) and you can easily use that as a window to get a rejuv off and shift back to bear. My gear is also strictly melee, almost all sta/str/agi, so I find that my animal forms are fairly high dps, and if there is one thing a shaman can't handle, it's melee dps. For all you balance/restoration druids, I'd recomend falling to the bearform vs. them also, it won't be as powerfull as a feral build, but the bearstun and bearcharge(if you have it) make great ways to both interupt their heals, and keep them from trying to get away. Feline swiftness also helps, but even without it when a shaman tries to run, try shifting to cat and hitting the sprint, you'll outrun the spirit wolf form allowing you to follow close behind and backstab backstab backstab :) just my 2cp

I like to smile
05-09-2005, 02:45 PM
....im sorry but... did you even read any of the thread before you posted? secondly... wth??
1. feral spec gets really crappy really fast at higher levels.
2. using bash for 1 heal inturrupt is a waste if late into the battle. They can just start healing again after they get unstunned.
3....(question :P) how do you fare against the other classes. at my level druids neeed their restoration to beat my rogue. also at lower levels with my druid it was almost impossible to kill mages without natures focus(then again i didn't have imp bash or charge)

Badgemagus
05-09-2005, 03:14 PM
I just finished reading this, thread "IN ITS ENTIRETY"(which, fyi, is the correct usage of the phrase/word) :tongue: anyway... it has certainly been an interesting 20 minutes. It seems to me that Badgemagus really has something to prove, given his usage (correct or not) of such fancy terms/phrases. hehe. but even so, at least he tried to articulate his point and reasoning in an elegant manner."i be givin him sum mad props fo dat shtuff yo."(buahahahha)


i currently have a level 55 rogue and a 34 druid and have some extensive pvp'ing experience with them both. i know level 34 isn't much, but combining my high level pvp experience with my rogue and the overall feel that i have so far with my druid, i have come up with this opinion: although the shaman class has a very high potential for damage(their wf proc and fs crit) the longer you can stay in bear form, and the longer you can drag the battle, the higher chance you have of winning. Now, comming up with a better strategy, imo, might be impossible untill the next patch(seeing as how we can't just spam roots anymore, and the extremely low dps we have in bear form makes it so that against anything that has mail armor or better it just becomes a way to regen our mana without taking massive ammounts of damage.(then again you could just try running away in travel form hehehehee... hehehe). i like the cat form idea. people always underestimate the damage that we can do to higher armored people while in it. :P With all of that said, i have a question to all of you out there with a feral/rest build. do you guys really not like imp moonfire and entangling roots that much?? there have been many times where imp roots saved my life. maybe it is just because im not that good with my druid and cant escape and heal that well if i don't root.

currently im going for an overall spread out build with 18 balance 11 feral and 22 rest. i have moonfire, ss, feral charge, and natures swiftness. although innervate is really good, it is on a 6 min cooldown and can be purged, where moonfire is constantly damaging the target, and is pretty nice when you can string together a crit or two instantly when you're trying to finish off a target.


Aitrus, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject of druids and i would really appreciate your insight on this subject. and want to know why my build isn't viable in your opinion.


(edited for clarity/.... grammar.... sometimes i don't type exactly what im saying to myself in my head.....)

Apparently some people cant read. Please teach us more english.

....im sorry but... did you even read any of the thread before you posted? secondly... wth??
1. feral spec gets really crappy really fast at higher levels.

Play the game as you want. Why would you flame someone for going feral? ESPECIALLY during the grind.

2. using bash for 1 heal inturrupt is a waste if late into the battle. They can just start healing again after they get unstunned.

Improved Bash.. Dude, you said you have a rogue.. I cant beleive you posted this..

3....(question :P) how do you fare against the other classes. at my level druids neeed their restoration to beat my rogue. also at lower levels with my druid it was almost impossible to kill mages without natures focus(then again i didn't have imp bash or charge)

Its mostly a mana battle. Feral charge, bash, natures swiftness for teh win.

Astrel
05-09-2005, 08:21 PM
It's quite easy to manage in a Feral Spec. I dunno about other Feral, but my Improved Bash is hardly for an interrupt heal. Combined with Nature's Swiftness, It's two free heals, one is Instant, the other is while you are stunned. lets me save my more mana that way by saving a big heal for much later, while I tank it out in Bear Form. Let the Rage bar fill up and I don't need to shift to heal, I just let Frenzied Regen work off the full rage bar. Shamans/Shadow Priests are probably the only class I have difficulty with, and Shamans even less the more I fight them. You don't even need to waste an attack on a Shamans totem if you just move out of it's Effective range.

Kabaoum
05-09-2005, 09:53 PM
....im sorry but... did you even read any of the thread before you posted? secondly... wth??

I read the first couple of pages... I'm sorry if I repeated any info, was not my intent. and wth do you mean by wth? :P


1. feral spec gets really crappy really fast at higher levels.


hasn't gotten crappy yet at lvl 45, I'll find some way to make it work if it does.


2. using bash for 1 heal inturrupt is a waste if late into the battle. They can just start healing again after they get unstunned.


Using bash for 1 heal inturrupt is far from a waste, especially late in the fight, some people don't even try to heal untill they are below 1/2 health, and sometimes it's just too late to get a heal off even if they do start to cast again after the stun wears off. A lot of times if needs be, I'll stun, get a maul in, back up to charge range, and charge for a second interupt. A well timed interupt is in no way, shape, or form a waste.


3....(question :P) how do you fare against the other classes. at my level druids neeed their restoration to beat my rogue. also at lower levels with my druid it was almost impossible to kill mages without natures focus(then again i didn't have imp bash or charge)

It all boils down to the gear you are wearing and what stats your focusing on. I have all str/sta gear with a little bit to int, combined with the strength of the wild talent I get a rather large boost to atk power when I shift into an animal form. Quite frankly, mages run out of mana before they can kill me. I make a point to not try to heal with them because the good ones save counterspell for when I do. One trick I found that works great vs. mages is to stun them simply as a means to coax them into blinking, then turn and charge, a lot of times they dont' realize they are immobilized and silenced from the bearcharge and blow their frost nova. So in a matter of seconds the mage has wasted the 2 spells he has that can put distance between me an him and it becomes a matter of pawing him to death. By the time his timers are up again, so are mine.
As for rogues the best thing I can do is, again, bearform. Between demoralizing roar and the 4k points of armor, I can usually outlast. Frenzied regeneration is really usefull in those situations too. A lot of times I see rogues try to run when the fight starts to last, which I just love. They can't restealth because of faerie fire, and between root, bearcharge, feline swiftness, and dash, there is no outrunning me. It just turns into me chewin em up from behind in catform.

Ghost Bear
05-17-2005, 03:03 AM
I really have the same view as Kabaoum. Feral has never let me down. The problem with druid is that its greatest strength is its greatest weakness. Its so diverse, but that diversity inherently has flaws. Maybe I can see it sense as a martial artists I have to study other fighters all the time and it carries over into the game. Or maybe just cuz I have a shaman as well.

The thing that people need to realise is that for pvp forget your restoration build. Its nice but against a shaman I'm sorry but its just not going to help you. As hard a pill it is to swallow, its sad but true. Most players though don't want to give up their holy innervate. Split Feral/Rest is ok for nature's swiftness. But then you need to decide what you want to fall on. You can't be good at everything. Plan your gear accordingly. The big problem is a lot of druids run feral but stack up into INT gear.

Druids can have nice dps. But its going to cost you survivabilty. Its a choice you have to make. Just don't be surprised when you keep getting beat by shammies with your Rest spec. Is it good for other classes? Of course. But against a shammy worth his salt? No its not going to cut it.
BTW my shammy has the most difficulty beating feral heavy druids with proper gear, i.e. STR/AGI/STA/SPI

The benefits of feral wont come into play unless you get the passives as well. And then you need to decide on bear or cat. If you want both your gonna have to sacrifice skills from other trees. But again, innervate is a waste in pvp. Restoration save for Nature's swiftness isn't going to help you much against a Shaman. To be honest the only thing from restoration really worth it in pvp is furor. Like it or not.

Badgemagus
05-20-2005, 07:06 PM
Ghost Bear, check out a Rubix video. Rubix 2 was my favorite. You will see a restoration Druid plow right through everything a shaman has to throw at him. Also check out Ferahgo's Root Down. Ferahgo uses Innervate all the time.

As for your thoughts on Restoration being usless in PvP, it is in my oppinion that Nature's Focus and Nature's Swiftness are PRICELESS in PvP. I will add that Furor is key to a good PvP build as well.

goa
05-21-2005, 09:18 AM
Restoration is _really_ good in pvp. The fight goes on until one of the combateers has no more life, correct? Then how in the h*ll is _gaining_ life bad?

Innervate a waste in pvp..? REALLY!? An extra manapotion not on the same timer as the default one is a waste.. erhm.. right! :D

Darleeg
05-22-2005, 10:45 AM
So there I was. I got killed by a Zerg train near Tauren Mill trying to save someone with heals, you know what I mean. I waited for Innervate and Natures Swiftness to pop before I rez'd as I always do.

The Horde is running towards the tower so it's perfect opportunity. I pop, Cheetah, get away and see noone is following. I regrowth and rejuv then swiftshift back to cheetah and run through Alterac Mountains.

I'm at full health, not buffed sitting at 4102 hp and 5100 mana. I'm pretty good to go. Just as I'm about to get on my mount A 60 Shaman from the Guild "Ascent" comes out of nowhere. Frostshock crits me for 1009 hp, I cheetah to get some distance, Frostshock crits again 1010 hp, Earthshock crits me for 1000 hp then spams purge and all this happens in a matter of seconds. I have less then 1000 hp left I natures swiftness, crit Regrowth myself for 1750 hp and Then Feral Charge him, Bash him, Pop out heal myself with Rejuv and Regrowth. He crit Frostshocks me again for 1020 hp, purges my heals. With me in Bear, his DPS is about 200 and mine is 135 avg. I get him to 60 percent life before I get Owned. I have 8k AC unbuffed, and he still manages to hit just over for half of what he could hit for. I used bear regen and it still wasn't enough.

I thought to myself, even if I had not been suprised this guy crits spells everytime and can remove any buffs. There is no amount of dps or Healing I could do to withstand this. I was even critting some of my hits for 600s.

I should have turned cat and stealthed through the mountains. :(

In this scenerio, against a Shaman that is sporting almost all purple gear...what would you have done?

I rez'd again and got back to the PvP raid as a stealthed cat.

I remembered his name and I sat on the line of battle and searched for him. I did nothing to help the raid. I found him. I targetted him and I kept him targetted.
I waited until the perfect opportunity, I popped Innervate and I Moonfire spammed all of my mana til he was dead. I had some 300 crits in there. I see curses and Stings fill my buff bar and my health is flying down. I natures swiftness heal myself and remove what I could as far as debuffs. I used my unstun trinket and got back to the raid almost dead. Later, I did this again to him and I felt satisfied my revenge had been delivered.

Quite a pathetic story, but oh well.

My build is:
31 Resto (with Innervate, 3 In Improved Regrowth, Furor and Natures swiftness)
11 Feral (with Feral Charge, Sharpened Claws, Improved bash)
9 Balance (with Swiftshifting, Natures Grasp and 1 in Improved range)

I would like to keep Innervate for instances as Mana Potions cost just way too much and I haven't found a good place to farm Major Mana potions. And iInnervate has saved me and my party way too many times. Putting it on the Raid priest or AE Mage.

With my PvP gear I have about 4300 hp and about 5300 mana self-buffed with GoTW. Not as high mana as some Druids I've seen sporting 6k plus, but it's so I can keep higher Sta and Str.

I used to worry about Stealthed Rogues, but now I keep something targetted to say I'm in combat to avoid a Sap and I set up my hotbar so that my Unstun Trinket, Natures grasp, Fairie Fire are all together, but:

I've dueled shaman before and have never encountered this high of DPS. In the scenerio of the Shaman what would you have done different? Please post replies. Would a Feral Build really have worked? Would a Frost resist Potion have worked?
How can the Druids Outlast strategy work on something like this? I hate reading Nerf forums and I hate whiners, but come on. "Ghost Bear" you say that you have difficulty with a Feral Druid, but really I bet that means you have difficulty against someone that is heavily specced to attempt to beat you, but you still always win. How is it a Shaman can crit 1000's every hit in seconds, Melee 200 to 500 dps, Purge everything, Slow Everything, Natures Swift heal, and have a totem for every scenerio? I dont want Nerfs, just think that Druids in PvP are still very much lacking and something else really needs to be looked at or done to the class as far as PvP goes.


Darleeg

Ghost Bear
05-22-2005, 08:39 PM
Why can a shaman do so much damage? Talents, armor with the right stat mods, nothing that a druid can't use too. Well maybe except the talents. Balance tree gets screwed. Was he hitting you from behind or flanks? That matters. As for melee, shaman can use those big heavy 2 handers. What did he have? And really, Windfury Totem is a b!tch when it works. Its part luck, part talents, part gear. Though if he had the kind of gear you say then maybe that's your answer right there.

Purge, shocks, snares. Look at what a shaman has. His skills are a direct antithesis to druid magic. They have insta casts that interrupt us, they kill our HoT's. So how do you beat them. Simple, don't let them do it. Don't get me wrong, restoration spec has a lot of good things. And if you really know how you can win against a shaman. Hey any class can say that. But against a shaman, you are going to have problems. Why? because you're playing right into their strengths: to interrupt/cancel magic, to purge HoT's/buffs. I mean that's what a rest. druid does right? Uses magic, buffs, heal and uses HoT's. Of course there are other things (forms, DoT's, etc.) but your OH SH!T skills are all the things that a shaman is good against.

How do you fight this? Well Darleeg look back into your own post. What did you do to beat him? Or rather what was different between your first fight that you lost, and the subsequent fights when you killed him? Of course there is the matter that the first time he surprised you. But like you said crits are crits and he was just overpowering you. The large difference was that, in the next fights you were on the offense. Everybody expects the druid to be a rest, and everyone expects you to be on the defense. But with the damage he was giving, you simply can't outlast it. So go on the offense. Make him play your game. A shaman doesn't have as great of healing tools as druids (even non rest druids can hang in this area), they just get the benefit of mail. So put the hurt on him (which in your later fights you did with MF correct?) and make him worry more about healing than purging you or shocking your heals. Why do I like feral tree, because as for our trees, feral plays that fight the best. Its our tree that's made to go toe-to-toe. Look at it this way, when he jumped you he had you nearly dead right. But you poped a NS heal and then retalliated. You even took him to 60% life (not bad for a comeback when you had one foot in the grave). But what were you using when you did that? Bear form. If he hadn't jumped you how much life do you think you could have taken him to? If you had more of the talents for bear how much then?

MotW can be purged, Regrowth can be purged, Rejuv can be purged, Innervate can be purged. Even Nature's grasp, N.Swiftness and all that can be purged. Healing Touch can be cancelled. But Sharpened claws cannot, Blood Frenzy cannot, Primal Fury cannot, Feline Swiftness too cannot. Improved bash stuns/interrupts him. Feral Charge stuns/spell locks him. And most of all you aren't playing his game. Even if you don't want to leave restoration spec. Just please do not fight his fight, don't play to his strengths. That's why I have more trouble with feral druids (and unlike you said, they do beat me. The good ones always do). I'm not that good a pvp'er. Its just that most druids play right into my hands when I'm shaman.

Tygre
05-23-2005, 02:29 AM
Darleeg -

Bored at work so I thought I would post with a few observations that may have taken place (played a sham a bit myself):
1) You are referring to the Ascent guild on Medivh, correct? If so, since they have dropped Rag, chances are good he is sporting some really nice gear.
2) I'm guessing that even if the shaman has the 31pt elemental mastery talent to get the first frostshock to crit, he got lucky on the other two crits for the 2nd frostshock and the earthshock. Hard to believe someone got lucky on 3 crit casts in a row, but I guess it is possible. Seems pretty slim though.
3) Elemental mastery requires a bit of a mana pool, so you can guess he has a int heavy build.
4) Was he wielding a 2h mace or axe? If he was, then combined with the fairly accurate assumption of #2, you can safely assume that he was a 31 elemental, at least 11 enhancement shaman, so he will NOT have nature's swift and chances are little to no healing talents.
5) When you first started to go toe-to-toe with him, what was his mana level like?
6) If you went toe-to-toe with him from the first frost shock, how do you think the fight would have gone?

The elemental shaman build is a up-front dmg, mana intensive build, so perhaps you would have been able to play the mana/endurance game? Maybe not run from the start? Hard to judge how it would have worked out though, especially since like GW stated you would have had many of your strengths for that game (HoTs, Inn, buffs) negated. Leaves you with FF and Demo for debuffs, maybe a moonfire, heal pot, rejuv and frenzied regen (since your NS+HT was already used) for healing, bash to interupt his heals (although hard to time on a 1.5s cast) and fight in bear. I am assuming you are not an alchemist since you stated you haven't had much luck farming mana pots, so what tradeskill did pick up instead? Do you have any trick trinkets/gadgets at hand? Anything you can get to either help your dps or throw off any predictability in a fight helps.

Of course, all of this looks good on paper. :tongue:

Badgemagus
05-23-2005, 02:24 PM
I have noticed a trend in shamans that I have PvP'd with.

1. Shaman is poor at PvP and doesnt know the effectiveness of his shocks. Uses them unknowingly of their effects.

- Easy to beat. If you find a player like this, go bear and chip away at their hp. Bash or natures grasp, kite, healing touch etc.. Not a tough battle.

2. Shaman likes to spam shocks. He's casting as fast as possible to beat you as fast as possible.

- The key is to keep yourself alive until his mana pool is depleted. Heal early. Natrure's grasp is key again. Kite. His shock range is short. Healing Touch. Grind away at his HP in bear.

3. Shaman knows how to use his shocks. He counters everything you do. Good Shaman.

- Plow away at his HP. Nature's Swiftness/Healing Touch. You should have much more armor than him. Gear is key. Always, always, always try to get behind him. Good Luck.

Kabaoum
05-26-2005, 11:05 AM
Ghost bear is right in saying that your playing into his strengths by fighting defensively. More often than not I've found the best defense is a good offense. He can purge your HoT's, so don't use them. Pop a nature's swiftness and toss on your full heal if you have to, but avoid rejuv. Stay in bear and try to save up on rage to get a good frenzied regen, don't spam the maul when you need the rage.

Restoration is _really_ good in pvp. The fight goes on until one of the combateers has no more life, correct? Then how in the h*ll is _gaining_ life bad?

Innervate a waste in pvp..? REALLY!? An extra manapotion not on the same timer as the default one is a waste.. erhm.. right!

Innervate is awesome in pvp, when your playing a fight that lasts way longer than it should and your not against an apponent that can clear it. Specifically, priests, shaman, and palladins. You can't play too defensively in pvp, especially when some classes have the ability to work around your defensive abilities. The feral tree is almost all offence. With decent spi you regen quite a bit of mana just sitting in bearform, and frenzied regen makes that possible even when your under some heavy fire. I have yet to meet a shaman my level who can handle me in a straight 1on1 match, I play very aggressively and they almost always stop casting shocks and start trying to heal. Though I'm only at lvl 50 so things might start to change as I near 60 and I start to encounter people with their epic sets. Good gear does make a difference.

Cenaurius
05-26-2005, 12:30 PM
i killed a 60 shaman 1on1 last night. he didn't purge ns in time when i shifted out of bear. had to use a combat healing pot and a combat mana pot for sweet moonfire spamming victory, but i am still very pleased.

Badgemagus
05-26-2005, 12:53 PM
Good gear is really important, your talents are important, but whats MOST important is your ability to play the Druid class to your own strengths. I've watched Druids beat Shamans primarily using feral forms, and I've seen Druids beat them in caster form. Learn and play to your own strengths. Find whats effective for you and use that. Adapt and conquer.

Cenaurius
05-26-2005, 01:35 PM
i am all about being a caster druid, and i know from experience that unless the circumstances ideally favor you, you're not taking a shaman down purely in that form.

Velious
05-26-2005, 02:21 PM
Having read through most of these posts, I figured I'd chime in with some experiences and views as well

I must admit that I'm in the "shaman are overpowered" group. I play on Deathwing, and if anyone has seen the official boards or played on that server, they know of Zangief, the 60 shaman that dominates the pvp ranks. I've only had one encounter with him (at level 54 no less) but he effectively countered everything I put out with flawless efficiency. Pattern was, grounding totem to negate nature's graps/initial roots, fs to prevent running, and purge to rid the buffs, which he did in that order, and managed to get a windfury proc off to boot (which all happened near instantly). I know these are all the known issues with them, but I have to admit that with these tools if caught off guard, there just isn't anything you can do, and not much you can do if you are on guard.

Also, over on the official boards, there is a guy named Orestes who posted a video and there is a very very good shaman fight in there (the best i've seen, aside from the very end). He changes it up quite a bit, using cat bear and caster forms through the fight, but it is obvious from that video that bear form dps can not keep up with a shaman's heals, (hence the cat form). I think this vid shows some of the best ways to effectively manage a shaman who uses most of his mana for heals, (which is probably the hardest type to defeat).

To the comment that videos are just one sided fluff, I have to strongly disagree. The videos that Ferhago and Rubix make are soley intended to show some strategies against a particular class, not to show a beat down or give them bragging rights. I think I've learned quite a bit about how to use my abilities as a druid more effectively from these videos in both pvp and pve. Whatever you take away from it is your choosing, but I know that myself and other druids have learned quite a bit about how our skills can be used to deal with those of the other classes. (Infact, both of them even claim that they are normal people and not anything special, and that putting out these videos is instrucitonal in intent, which you would also see if you actually viewed the content of them).

Finally, I'd like to add that, just as with all classes in the game, I think most of it comes down to equipment and personal skill. Shaman don't have to be nearly as complex about it like we do, as they were supposedly designed for pvp, and I can say a few other classes like the mage and rogue are about equally as simple, (watch any pvp video of them and you'll see the EXACT same pattern over and over again for any fight). The only area I see being a real problem is with the equipment for melee classes increasing. This has been noted by several other caster classes, (mostly priests and mages) as being a real problem due to them getting higher and higher dps and defense with the casters getting no real buffs. However, an official rep has stated that they are developing and reworking additional equipment for casters to stay in line with the melee groups, (but who knows the time frame).

Badgemagus
05-26-2005, 04:18 PM
Good input.

Again, I urge people to take a look at a couple Ferahgo and Rubix video's. The most recent video's are most applicable to current patches etc..

Darleeg
05-27-2005, 07:21 PM
Thanks for the inputs. I know for a fact the Shaman I faced is in mostly Epic geared. It had alot to do with his crits and large mana pool. Of late when he hits he doesn't always crit, which leads me to believe that day he had alot of luck on his side. Kills have gone both ways lately. Now he usually just Frostshocks, and lets his Tightly packed group run me over. But then again, I root him and do the same thing with my group as I moonfire spam him. Yeah he can shapeshift out of it or purge it, but even for a few seconds he's there it's long enough. Too bad that there is nothng that gets rid of Frostshocks slowing component. The trinket doesn't work, freeaction potions dont work and Frost Protection potions prevent the damage, but still let the slowing component :sigh:. Even though in the descriptions it sounds like they would work. So now I just do my best to avoid being frostshocked by just staying out of range early. Not all shamans use Frostshock and open up with Chain Lightening.

In a Toe to Toe fight, I can see how I just had to retaliate instantly and maintain aggression over defensive and Heal Early. I wont be respeccing as this talent tree suits more according to my play style.

Yeah, I took Skinning and Leatherworking which did pay well for a while and had my mount at 40. With the skills maxed and it still being a good source of income I will just keep them vice going Alchemy. Besides Combat Potions are cheap and I'm glad I have access to them for now. A 5 stack restriction stinks, but it's enough for most sessions of play.

I'm glad some real quality resposes were added and I can say I have learned quite a bit.

Darleeg

Kabaoum
05-28-2005, 11:35 PM
Unless it changes at higher ranks, purge only works on enemy targets. I've never seen a shaman purge one of my debuffs off of himself.(i.e. root/faerie fire)
The fact that we can't shift out of frostshock is a bug that blizz has publicly stated is on the list of upcoming fixes, we are supposed to be able to shift out of it.

kippinski02
10-08-2006, 09:58 AM
Ah my old nemesis the shaman, how I loathe thee with the uber-blizzard-buffs.
:iamwithst

Shammys don't view their nemesis as Druids, we view them as pallys. I have a 60 Shammy and 60 priest and 60 rogue. I honestly say that leveling the Shammy I have never lost to a Druid in a 1 on 1- full mana/health- unlesss they were at least 4 levs higher than me- Shamans are way overpowered to Druids. I know all of you say you can take a Shammy- I guess that is because this is a :eusa_booh --Druid--:eusa_booh forum.

Endgame is a different scene for us when we fight Druids though. As long as the Shammy is wearing equal gear to the Druid- Shammy will win(if shammy knows how to play). My shammy is in all T-1 gear mainly. It is a had fight if the Druid has his T-3 Gear. That is the only time i will loose to a Druid. And still if i loose it is a close fight.

Druids are not a dueling class- even my shadow priest wins against them 90% of the time- but thats not for this forum- im gonna leave that outta this.

Shamans are the Pallys of the Horde. I get hit and hit by a Druid and dont get hurt much- Mail - and if druid goes away from my range of my shocks- my lightning storm and chain lightning usually crits 1800 with not much mana loss. Also, my shocks are 4 sec cooldown not 5- cause of tallent specs in Elemental tree.

1. never lost to a druid leveling- fair fight close level
2. at 60 Druid needs way bettter gear than me - then i MIGHT loose
3. If i see a Druid i always think- good its a druid- im safe- lol

---------------------------------------------
I know I will get flammed for this - but it is true

goa
10-08-2006, 11:42 PM
Totem Stomper? cost 25 mana and doesnt even de-targets the shammy.

Unfair? No skills involved? Addon abuse? Maybe.

Falloraan
10-09-2006, 11:17 AM
Druids are not a dueling class- even my shadow priest wins against them 90% of the time- but thats not for this forum- im gonna leave that outta this.
Considering shadow priests beat all classes 90% of the time, I guess this should make druids feel good. You must not know how to pvp on that priest, because it really should be a lot higher win percentage on druids.

Beating a shaman is really simple, just need to run them out of mana and survive that early burst dps they put out. Both are not difficult to do, unless the shaman gets lucky on crits. I used to despise shaman (much like I hate warlocks now). I don't beat em all the time, but I hold my own, winning as much as I lose to them. It takes a really well-played druid to beat an average shaman though, so it's no surprise you have such luck in the BGs. And I don't see a resto druid being able to dps a shaman down, so that just gives you more fodder for your win rate against druids.

Bryne
10-09-2006, 12:34 PM
It also supports the view of the uber-overpowered shammy. Which on my server is a given. Although I have been able to best a shammy from time to time, they are by far the most difficult to face. And as you stated above Pally's are your nemesis...I would disagree. I know what the game manual says about the sides...but if you read carefully and look at the talent trees it actually should be the Druid...its just we get nerfed in all areas, where the Shammy has been given some extra love by the designers.
It will be interesting in the expansion on how the role reversal will be taken. Personally, I plan on rolling a Draenei Shammy!!!!

kippinski02
10-09-2006, 12:57 PM
I guess that is why you will never find a forum this size labled "how to beat a Druid as a Shaman" :eusa_booh

My priest wins 90% of the time- no shadow priest can always take a druid- i am in tier 1 - so i think 90% is rather high- and yes - i do know how to duel - but shadow priests dont beat all classes-
IE
Shamans pawn me that have good gear-- remember- they purge my shield-- and lay Tremor Totems (no Psysic Scream-- or FEAR to those who dont know--my mana burn cant withstand Shaman's anti- priest defence. USUALLY-- Shamans are my hardes fight as a priest.

Also-- I am horde on both characters- so i am not basing this off BG -- I am basing this off of straight up duels-- My opinion is if you are AF- then you really dont have the one on one-- hours and hours experience dueling as or against Shaman-- cause MOB or not expecting getting attacked-- low mana--issues when out and about. I have hours dueling against Shaman on my characters- and hours dueling as Shaman. An actual fair fight 1 on 1. I see alot of you are AF - to me it doesnt count-- cause of interferring factors or less mana- or wrong eqipped weapon- 2hand weap for casters and shield for Melee-- afk or just focused on grinding....

At 60 Duels A druid needs way better gear to beat me- then he might win-- dueling

My 2 cents

Waterloo
10-14-2006, 01:33 AM
Must suck being a night elf. LoL War Stomp for teh win


Actually...


Well I use Moonkin Form, so...I enjoy going invisible in it and ambushing people. It's also very good for drinking water and everything...


Pretty happy anyways. =P