Just read the thread that dealt with using potions in duals. SInce my druid spends all her free time building up alchemy/herbalism while a rogue would spend all thier free time building up first aid--a fair trade would be

agree before fight that I wont use the potions I have spent my time building skill up on and they dont use bandages. My bandage skill is zero because I spent all my time on alchemy

just thought of the solution. make another class of potion that becomes soul bound upon creation--therefore only the alchemist could have it. then make those the only potions that could be used in duels. then I would gain value from the time I put into alchemy--just like the rogue/warrior etc gained value from the time he put into bandaging. but if you are not an alchemist--you get no advantage because the potion cant be bought.


otherwise you are punishing alchemist for the time they spend doing alchemy. you say people should be rewarded by spending time to get better gear or spending time to raise bandaging---why should all my time spent raising alchemy be totally wasted in a duel.. otherwise you should get zero credit for beating an equal level opponent in a duel if they have alchemy---since youi have a different skill such as bandaging or something that they did not get since they were leveling up alchemy. If it is all about building up a total character---the characters which build up alchemy (vice just buying the potions) should get some benefit from the time spent.

Why don't you just work up First Aid? I maxed First Aid in two days. All of the bandage components are stupid cheap in the AH.

if it helps, people consider using engineering equipment, particularly the goblin rocket helmet, in a duel to be extremely cheap and an indicator of no skill.

People are starved for skill based combat in WoW. You have to make arbitrary rules in order to make it possible, otherwise its all cheeze and zerg.

but the cheese must flow.... mmmm cheese

Sorry for being entirely non-productive with that line. Duel rules should be determined before a duel. Plain and simple, end of story. Anything not defined in blanket statements is fair game IMO.

Personally, I love duels where my opponent uses everything at their disposal, it better prepares me for PvP

I love cheeze..

I don't challenge but I accept duels. I use potions and first aid and have been called Newbie for it.. Usually by people that I have just beat. If they complain I remind them that they challenged me and never set any rules prior to the duel.

In guild duels the people will usually state up front what the rules are in which cast they insist on silly things like no Pots , no 1st aid and no rooting... We have such a wide arsenal that you can learn to work around it.

I think the funniest one I had was a rogue 4 lv below me want to duel that told me no moonfire or Wrath.. He then proceeded to kill himself on my thorns when the only spells I cast were heals and FF.

if someone ever told me that using moonfire in a duel was cheap, i would 1) /stare 2) /slap 3) /no, and lastly 4) moonfire spam them to death.

what is your definition of super cheap storm? I have only been playing for about 1 and 1/2 months and have a grand total of about 30 silver right now. just got done buying all my 24 spells.


I do know that if I had not chosen alchemy and herbalism--I could have taken mining and skinning and made a ton of money selling the items in AH--and then bought great armor, and had tons of money to level up first aid.

that is my point--the choice I made to develop my character was alchemy and herbalism. I gave up the advantages of profit to build my character that way.

So to tell an alchemist that they are not allowed to use part of what they spent all of thier time building up on thier character in a duel, while still using what you spent your time building up (ie first aid or better gear thru selling mining/skinning profits) sounds to me kind of like wanting your cake and eating it too.

good idea to set the rules ahead of time. You expect me to handicap my character and get no advantage off time I invested in alchemy--I will expect a return sacrifice of part of your time (ie dont use the time you invested in first aid or acknowledge that the only reason you beat me is because you bought better gear since all you did was sell tradeskill items from skinning/mining---ie you did not out play me-you outspent me)

Cause after all--are you a better player then me if your gear cost 3 times as much as mine cause you used mining/skinning to make money and buy gear while I was using that same time on alchemy that I would be criticized for using? I would think not--I would think that If you are getting an advantage off the gear you bought with mining/skinning giving you double the hps/mana/ac of me while I have to sacrifice any advantage I got from alcemy, then your victory would be just as hollow. It is not a true test of your skill, it is simply the equipment you bought.

People are starved for skill based combat in WoW

my point--if I spent all my money and time building up alcemy which I cant use. and someone else spent all thier time doing skinning/mining and selling those tradeskill items to buy twice as good of gear--is it really skill based? In eq could a skilled warrior in cultural armor beat a mediocre warrior in time gear? it is not a measure of skill--that is a measure of money spent.
so dont talk to me about cheesy victories when the other person is wearing armor that cost three times as much. that is not skill--skill would be both people stripping off every piece of armor and dueling naked with no armor or weapons or both having the EXACT same equipment--then it is equal and about skill.

Brum, if you took herbalism you're sitting on a herbal goldmine :)
Herbs, even lower level ones like stranglekelp, sell for a good chunk of change in most AH's - especially if you're willing to lowball the price for a quick sell.

I'm an herb/alch at level 60 and I have 300g in the bank that I've collected bit by bit over the 7mo I've been playing (err.. when was WoW released again?). I have one piece of Wildheart gear (yay bracer) and the rest of my armor is bought. 4/5 weapons I carry are also purchased. Not dogging you here, just saying that herb/alch does not mean you're going to the poorhouse.

As for First Aid, to get to 300 skill, I went the way of Linen and Mageweave and only did Wool and Runecloth when everything else went green. Including purchasing the various bandage books, I would be surprised if I exceeded 6g in AH supplies. Giant amount of money at level 24 yes, but not a whole lot at level 60.

First Aid also starts to pay for itself. Taking any type of cloth and making "heavy" bandages out of them allows you to sell to the vendor for more than just the generic cloth. For example, Runecloth vendors for 4s each - per stack that's 80s. Heavy Runecloth bandages sell for 2g a stack - a 40s mark up from selling 40 Runecloth (heavy bandages take 2x's the cloth).

Cloth drops pretty frequently from most humanoid mobs, and since you're picking the stuff up <i>anyway</i>, learn First Aid. You get the majority of your skill from making bandages, not healing people. Not only that, it's like the game is <i>handing you money</i> to make bandages.

Didn't mean to thread hijack here, but going back to your original point, why not go ahead and use both potions and bandages if they're both at your disposal? Especially if you're PVP'ing against people who never set duel rules.

Didn't mean to thread hijack here, but going back to your original point, why not go ahead and use both potions and bandages if they're both at your disposal? Especially if you're PVP'ing against people who never set duel rules



I agree. If I am fighting someone, I assume they will use everything at thier disposal. however if I used everything at my disposal to include potions and someone whined and cried claiming I cheated---I should be allowed to point back at thier superior armor gotten by doing profession skill farming for money instead of herbalism and cry foul also. If my potions give me an unfair advantage--then me not using my potions BUT them using thier superior boughten armor or first aid--which I sacrificed getting to build up alchemy is just as unfair.

that was my whole point. I also say "fight with everything you have and let whoever wins--win"

should be allowed to point back at thier superior armor gotten by doing profession skill farming for money instead of herbalism and cry foul also. If my potions give me an unfair advantage--then me not using my potions BUT them using thier superior boughten armor or first aid--which I sacrificed getting to build up alchemy is just as unfair.
As was pointed out, if you can't make money with herbalism/alchemy then that's your fault, don't blame others. Maybe what you should be doing is trying to figure out why you aren't able to make money from what is probably the most profitable set of skills.

we are not alone

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2880589&p=1&tmp=1#post2880589

I use potions in PvP, and if I'm dueling someone much higher level than me. Then, my thinking is that I should have a little booster to put them closer to my level.

Potions aren't very worthwhile in duels, because there are no tangible rewards for dueling. In PvP, they can be justified because you get honor kills, and you can save a trip from the graveyard back to your corpse. Also, your horde opponent can't really complain to you since cross faction communication is prevented =P

Just a note on one of the side topics... First aid. First aid won't make you wealthy but you can make a profit with it. You can AH bandages, but you can also vendor them for more than you would have gotten for the raw materials if you need quick cash.

In fact, you can make a profit off of any trade, so learn all you can. First aid, fishing and cooking are available to everyone, and you skill up using items dropped in the normal course of hunting. Fishing also can help with cooking skill and a lot of the upper level "dishes" have some stats as well. I need mana more than HPs usually (I play a shaman mostly) but will keep a few stat foods handy just for the stats. Oh... and you can vendor all the cooked dishes for more than you can sell the ingredients unless you get very lucky in the AH.

So even if you don't plan on using the items you make with first aid, fishing and cooking, sell them for money. In fact, sell everything you get!! A lot of wierd things you wouldn't think would sell in AH sell very well. There are a lot of various tradeskill items that are used in quests and people have to get them somewhere if they aren't skilled in the trade that makes it.

The main problem I have with the no potions argument is it absolutly disqualifies every item from one profession, while at the same time allowing every single item from every other profession. It gives the impression that choosing to be a alchemists was some gimp way to cheat in duels while choosing any other profession was a wise choice that was made to enhace your characters preformance.

Having the ability to create potions and use them regularly allows the alchemist to skimp on some stats and boost others when gearing up, and playstyle revolves around that, by stating no potions you are asking a player to walk into a fight with xx less ac, str, int, ect.. than they might normally have for any other encounter. For quite awhile my character depended on +str potions when in feral forms, because I neither had the money or the option to get additional gear with extra strength, when dueling often feral forms are key, so with no potions I would be gimped walking into any duel and the person that beat me would have beaten me when I was less than at the top of my game, that doesn't seem as if the person that won achieved a victory.

These are all, IMO, quite silly arguments, trade professions, money earned? gear becuase of it? what, if anything does this have to do with PvP skills and the inherent characters skills as provided in the game? nothing.........

The key factor for most regarding pvp/potions, is they cost money to the bulk of the populice, at that reasoning, in pvp dueling same faction, they are not generally accepted due to the keep up with the jones's mentality. So two evenly specced comparable characters duel, and one has a major pot, and the other a superior? No fair cries one, tough crap cries the other. Thus the reasoning that potions are an immediate item that can unreasonably skew the outcome with no basis on the pvp skills of the player. Comparing potions to bandaging is quite silly, there is no excuse, especially for a druid, IMO to not have FA maxed by 50, or any player for that matter, by that time there has been huge drops of material for the taking to manufacture the needed bandages. If your a tailor, tough call, but surely an extra few levels and it can be maxed. Is there no druid out there that's not bandaging his comrades when the aggro isn't on them? quit wasting mana.

With the new honor system, I will have my potions at the ready against the opposing faction. I wish I didn't, but as stated earlier, equipment differences can make a huge change in the play, and I choose to NOT get camped if I can avoid it. As for faction pvp, u know what you got into, perhaps it was on purpose? I'm not afraid of taking on a big gear player, why would I? I can only get better at learning how to handle it. Keeping the potions for instances/ hostile pvp means my money goes further and my skills get better.

To wrap, so a alchemist, to be fair in pvp and use potions can have no enchants/armor packs on their person? a leather worker can have armor packs, but no enchants or potions? and enchanter can have only enchants? While I"m certain some won't agree, I'm also certain that the reasoning above makes some sense. All elements are available to all players in some fashion, potions however, are a constant cost and truly, when used in faction pvp, not an indication of a players skill. LOL, frankly, it's not that important for me to win in a faction pvp.

As was pointed out, if you can't make money with herbalism/alchemy then that's your fault, don't blame others. Maybe what you should be doing is trying to figure out why you aren't able to make money from what is probably the most profitable set of skills



right back at ya with making money off blacksmithing or leatherworking. sell what you make to make money and buy potions. I have to pay someone to make me leather gear and am usually at least one step behind someone who is making it for themself ie they are wearing one step higher of the gear that they made then I can afford. So I have more potions. I use my money to buy gear you make in a duel--still probably having inferior gear-----------you use your money to buy potions to use a duel-still having less potions probably.

sorry as an alchemist, I will use potions. they are as easy for me to replace as making new better armor is for you. we both chose our paths. you wanted to make sure you had the best armor available--I will probably lag a little behind. I wanted to make sure I had potions available--I can afford to use them in duels easily. we both benefit from our chosen profession. you dont want me to benefit cause you think it would be unfair--fine then you should not benefit. take off that top of the line armor that I could not make for myself and cant afford to buy. then we will see who has the skills instead of who just has an extra 250 AC and extra stats from gear.

i am shocked to say this, but the honor system actually did some good in this area. once you reach knight status on the alliance (dont know what the comparable level is for the horde - blood guard?) you have access to combat health and mana potions for some ridiculously low price, like 9 sp. that should do a great deal to level the playing field as far as access to potions is concerned.

brum15, :) I do see your point, however, overall, you should really review the listed and available items that can be "made" for the individual skills. In general, items that are decent to be made are extremely high skill level, and skilling to make them at the level seemed impossible to me, especially in leather. I'm certain skilling in potion is just as difficult. However, quest rewards throughout the game yeild nice equipment for the long term as opposed to skill items. Then there are instance drops, even at level 15, you can outfit in serious equipment just from playing the game so in that regard, your argument is mute.

None of it matters really, it's just a game, but I did want to point out how equipment items are very difficult to make and in "general" not as good as what is available for earning throughout the game. Heck, I just took 4 of our guild lowbies up to shadowfang and ran it a few times, you should see the cloth gear our mage and priest are wearing now, rings, mail, all kinds of crap just from a few hours of having a blast playing the game.

Cost on AH for 5 Greater Mana Potions = 65 Silver.
Cost of 1 GMP = 13 Silver.

Cost on AH for 20 RuneCloth = 125 Silver.
Cost on AH for 2 Rune Cloth = 12.5 Silver

Value of 1GMP = 13 Silver
Value of 1 Heavy Rune Cloth Bandage = 12.5 Silver.

Anyone who complains that Potions = Cheap/Unfair and Bandages = Fair is either (a) idiot (b) hypocrit.

I don't use expensive potions in duels, but a Greater Mana, sure.

Cost on AH for 5 Greater Mana Potions = 65 Silver.
Cost of 1 GMP = 13 Silver.

Cost on AH for 20 RuneCloth = 125 Silver.
Cost on AH for 2 Rune Cloth = 12.5 Silver

Value of 1GMP = 13 Silver
Value of 1 Heavy Rune Cloth Bandage = 12.5 Silver.

Anyone who complains that Potions = Cheap/Unfair and Bandages = Fair is either (a) idiot (b) hypocrit.

I don't use expensive potions in duels, but a Greater Mana, sure.

LOL, what server are you on? maybe we can cross trade, mana specifically, superiors run about 3.5g for a 5 stack, Major mana potions go for about 7-9 g per 5 stack...........remember,not all are in the same world :) Healing pots are so nutz, I don't even look at them for purchase. I take only what my guild alchemists supply, and keep them only for guild/instance runs.

There's skill in using potions during duels. There is a timer on the potion for a reason. What would be best? To quaff your healing potion when you're about to die or using the free action potion earlier for better advantage?

People saying potions are cheap don't appreciate good PvP. The conditions are the same for everyone.. don't blame the other guy for being better at _the game_ than you (yes, _the game_ involves potions).

I also am pretty hung up at this "duel" issue. When is potions ok for you against it? Only when not dueling? Only when mass-pvping? Only is 1v1-dueling opposite side? I've found ppl to ALWAYS quaff potions as there is no other when I duel people on the opposie side? Why is i so much more ok then?

Personally I don't care if people want to waste potions in duels. I see it as nothing more than a waste, if your that desperate for a win that doesn't count for anything that you'll use your consumable resources, be my guest. I'll save my potions for situations that will save my life :D

LOL, what server are you on? maybe we can cross trade, mana specifically, superiors run about 3.5g for a 5 stack, Major mana potions go for about 7-9 g per 5 stack...........remember,not all are in the same world :) Healing pots are so nutz, I don't even look at them for purchase. I take only what my guild alchemists supply, and keep them only for guild/instance runs.

I said cheap potions and specifically mentioned greater mana.
Not Superior/Major Mana. Those are a lot more expensive.

Greater Mana is used a lot of times to skill up, + pretty common from upper end chests. Heck I sell Greater Manas
from chests all the time.

I personally wouldn't waste the money of a Superior/Major on a duel. However, anyone who said to me... can't use a greater, but we can bandage I'd laugh at since thier the same cost.

I would like to see some specific benefits for people who specialize in potions rather than buying them, maybe some offensive pots like fire breathing or a molotav cocktail.

I think that it should go more this way. . .everyone is allowed to have the buffs that are specific to their class. They are allowed to have these buffs active before the battle. . .so I think it would be acceptable for an alchemist to have active his/her buffing potions as well (as this would help the unbalanced nature of the predicament). I would say that giving a "no potions" is not entirely fair. "No healing/mana pots" would however be fair for all. Just my $.02